Pokemon Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon In-Game Tier list (v2)

quick post, know I'm late to the party on this but want to say that B tier seems good for Vikavolt, been a while since I've used it and pre-Vikavolt is pretty meh but Thunderbolt Vikavolt does really hurt and...you don't really need Bug Buzz THAT much in the grand scheme of things to my knowledge?

Nanu and Hapu really aren't the hardest bosses in the world and I think it's consistent enough B tier is good for it, even if the early phases are a little weaksauce without outright advantages.
 

Ryota Mitarai

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A bit late to the party since I wanted to see if other people wanted to chime in on the current discussions, but anyways: I am planning on doing some tier changes in the weekend. In particular:

Zorua B -> C
Grubbin A -> B
Steenee D -> C
Cottonee D -> C
Stufful lock to A-tier
Makuhita lock to A-tier

Please post if you are against any of those changes and/or you want an extension to finish a run. I am assuming that HydreigonHydrogen (assuming he hasn't finished his run)'s thoughts on those are settled and the E4 performance wouldn't change his thoughts, let me know if that's not the case.

Now, the reason why Cottonee is also rising is because it's more-or-less a better Steenee. It comes earlier, has Prankster and Charm, and even has good matchups (mainly Hala and Nanu with Moonblast). So if people want Steenee in C-tier, I assume they would be fine with Cottonee in there too for consistency's sake.

Grubbin is dropping to B-tier due to a popular demand. I am not dropping it to C-tier without additional logs, because Vikavolt is pretty good once you get it (I even managed to win against Mimikyu with it; get a boost with Charge Beam and throw in a Z-Zap Cannon). Bug STAB isn't a concern, since TBolt / Energy Ball handles most opponents for you.

Zorua is dropping to C-tier. As I stated in a previous post, it's got some great matchups, but you need to be very clever to actually get them and I'd say C-tier is fair, especially given the support it has currently

Stufful is being locked to A-tier due to huge support. I am wondering if Machamp could maybe rise to A-tier, since it has a somewhat similar performance iirc. Makuhita is being locked to A-tier as well for consistency (Hariyama has most of Bewear's great matchups and even more on top of this).

so I caught this just now, so apologies for lateness, but you don't have to test Hau, since you don't need to win most fights to advance through the story. The logs are appreciated, nevertheless, just keep in mind that as to not waste your time.
 

Ryota Mitarai

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I have updated the list with the changes

As a reminder, I am mostly looking for more thoughts on Rowlet, Honedge/Beldum, Golem, and Vulpix/Sandshrew. If we can get consensus on those, I will start packing the list for write-ups, unless people have a big interest in also testing other things. Obviously, I know that testing this game is tedious, I can tell from first-hand experience, that's why I am willing to move to write-ups. But I am willing to extend this if people are interested in working on this a bit more. Regardless, I am content with most of the ranks here, so it shouldn't be a huge issue to move forwards anyways.
 
I feel like Vulpix should go down to D. It hasn't been that useful since I got it, even falling to Nanu, and I'm not seeing it being better down the line either (Kommo-O has Roseli Berry and Poison Jab and I don't think it'll be that useful against Ribombee). It could help against Acerola (as three of her team is weak to Ice), but Steel and Rock re just bad matchups overall and four out of five of Kahili's Pokemon pack SE coverage.
 
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Hey I started a playthrough a week back and am nearing the end. I really like these tier lists and I think this is my first time participating in one!

I picked Litten, and did Pikipek/Magnemite, then boxed Litten due to wanting Totem Marowak...and GTS'd and bred a Popplio (no boosted XP). I have 2 free slots that I'm not convinced (yet) by anything to fill. I also didn't keep my affection levels at 2 for most of the early game(0/1).

So, with that awkward starter selection, I would still like to state my displeasure with Popplio. At the very least, it doesn't feel equivalent to the other Pokemon in its tier. It gets such a poor level-up move pool (by the time it was a Primarina it had almost the same moves as Popplio besides BubbleBeam/Sparkling Aria, and then Psychic TM), and it honestly didn't feel that useful to me mid-game. I will say that normally people probably overlevel their starters more than anything, where as mine was underlevled for the early-game, so take that into account. Obviously I'm not done yet, and Choice Specs is great (soon to be moved onto Magneton/zone when it evolves), but it didn't feel that great to use, at least during the midgame.

The others are great I suppose, though Magnemite being stuck with Charge Beam and Marowak with Flame Charge (unless you pay BP for Punch) is a bit disappointing. And Toucannon is great, but probably does fall off a small bit here and there (early evo and unchanging movepool, also takes a while to get moves that make use of Skill Link).

For my next playthrough (if I'm motivated enough), I'm mainly considering Metagross/Salamence/Arcanine as a base
 

Ryota Mitarai

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sorry for late response, but forgot to post lul

for Popplio, I have talked about it in the past, but it's a bit more sophisticated to use, but it's capable of getting past quite a good amount of opponents. I'd have to check my logs for full summary, but basically, it makes a great use of Psych Up (with it, I have beaten Mimikyu, Kommo-o, and Ribombee) and is pretty good against other opponents like Nanu and Guzma. I understand the sentiments against it, as it's not an A-tier in the sense of spamming the A-button and winning, but rather it's something that can take on a lot of opponents with a little bit of planning

I could *maybe* drop it to B-tier if more people support this (last time we talked about it, there was an overwhelming amount of people supporting A-tier or higher), though

as for the rest, I'd say you are mostly spot on in terms of how they perform, though I see no reason not to give Marowak Fire Punch (BP is fairly easy to farm), curious to see what you think of the other Pokemon's current rankings.

as for any future runs, I think only Beldum could get a test. Bagon is a bit unnecessary to test unless you want to make a case for E-tier and I think there are more important things to test than Growlithe. However, *any* test is valuable, so do not worry if you want to try out those as well

I may also drop Vulpix to D-tier following a previous post. I'd like for this to revive a bit so I can do some other changes alongside it
 
I haven't been playing much recently, but I will say that before Metagross, Metang is a pain to train up due to its lackluster stats, and you'll have to train it a lot unfortunately due to its Slow Exp. Group. I haven't battled any of the Poni Totems yet, but will edit this post about Metagross's performances there when I do. If it doesn't do too well i'll advocate for a drop, otherwise it can stay B (it does have STAB Z-Moves for the Totems and Magnet Rise for Hapu so it might have a chance at staying).

Edit: Beats Kommo-O, but chip causes it to lose to the ally. Still gonna count this as a point in its favor.
Edit: OHKOs Ribombee
 
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Psych Up does sound interesting, generally I don't really even consider moves like that (usually it's just hitting SE or sometimes setting up and then hitting STAB) so I guess that is fair. I completed my playthrough, and while part of it is due to the 4 mon team, Primarina certainly felt more useful towards the end (once it gets coverage moves I guess). I mean ultimately it depends on (how a mon fits into) the team. BP is easy to farm, but I guess I didn't check the learnset and just expected something in between Flame Wheel and Flare Blitz lol.
 
It's been ages, but I think I'll advocate for a drop for Metagross. Was playing and found out Hapu leads with Golurk, which is... yeah. And even if it gets past Golurk (which is actually possible), Mudsdale still blocks it with Stamina and good physical bulk. I haven't got to the E4 yet, but it's matchups don't seem the best there either, so I feel it fits the description for C better.
 

Ryota Mitarai

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I will most likely drop Vulpix and Beldum one tier below over the weekend if no one objects to that. Per memories years ago, Metagross's only significant advantage at the E4 is against Olivia, though you could probably dent Kahili significantly (especially if running Agility to outspeed some of the more problematic Pokemon like Oricoro). Realistically, I think Metagross's biggest issue is simply getting one; not only do you have to deal with a catch rate of 3 (which you can improve with Roto Catches, though I cannot think of anything else that requires this "assistance"), but Beldum/Metang won't be doing much till they evolve and that's gonna be a while due to Slow growth experience

Since Beldum is dropping, I am also gonna drop Honedge with it. It's a better Beldum (for most parts), though you similarly have a Pokemon that isn't gonna do much until the end-game

We are now only left with dealing with Rowlet / Golem and we could theoritically move to write-ups, unless people are interested in testing for this list more, in which case I would be happy to extend the testing deadline. I may do a run myself with Rowlet and some other stuff I want to look over one last time (and thus fry my laptop for one last time), but we will see.
 
Re: Meh-tagross

From my memories AGES ago I think in SM, maybe USUM, yeah Beldum is simply not a B tier Pokémon. It’s on the third island which really is pretty darn late even with all the training opportunities, and Beldum is also a pain to catch. Even when you get it, you still got to raise it 15+ levels to Metagross, and while Eviolite Metang is okay it’s really not great because STABs rarely hit SE and Metang has only modest stats. Sure Metagross is a beast for Ultra Necrozma and Ribombee but it’s only advantage at the League is like…Olivia? I mean sure, Metagross is Metagross, but really it’s just a beatstick with good stats that make it seem better than another Pokémon with consistent type advantages. In reality, you put in all that investment for like 2-3 bosses and that’s really it. You can Magnet Rise for Hapu but I doubt you’re actually killing much.

Honedge is a little better as far as Steel types go but I remember it being consistently iffy until Aegislash which wrecks everything, but waiting an entire island and maybe even the Aether stuff to evolve depending on version (UM gets it after you are done with Nanu I think) really isn’t a good look.
 

Ryota Mitarai

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Beldum, Honedge, and Vulpix have all dropped by one tier

In addition, I have cleaned up the list a bit with regards to what needs testing; I have removed some Pokemon where I think they fit perfectly in the tier they are in, so that people can have an easier time choosing something to test if they choose to do so

as I said, I may do a run with Rowlet and some other things myself, but I'd like first to see if anyone else wants to test it.
 
noivern was pretty solid for me. even tho noibat levels up late it somehow outsped a decent amount of matchups. It also was solid with air cutter and somehow was never lagging behind in levels on my team. I ran Primarina, noivern, salazzle, tyrantrum, vikavolt, and metagross
 
Thoughts on the underleveled R3 SOS Salamence?

Also I assume if it's not mentioned the Totem pokemon are the same as normally catching them?
 

Ryota Mitarai

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Thoughts on the underleveled R3 SOS Salamence?
a 1% SOS slot off a 1% encounter rate Pokemon with a catch rate of 45? No thanks, just use the normal Bagon. Not to mention that Salamence's starting movepool isn't exactly impressive either

Also I assume if it's not mentioned the Totem pokemon are the same as normally catching them?
Totem Pokemon are tiered separately from the base Pokemon if they are notably better (to the point of ranking higher) AND if it's a version exclusive. The Totem Alolan Marowak is the best example of this, as it gets Shadow Bone before the relearner and you don't have to go out of your way to evolve it for Lurantis. Currently, the Totem Gumshoos is tiered separately as well, but I feel like it could be merged with Yungoos as well if the Adaptability boost doesn't provide much beyond not needing a Work Up to OHKO Araquanid and Lurantis.

Totem Raticate is inferior to normal one because it doesn't have Hustle... and the normal one isn't really that good on first place anyways

Totem Araquanid is also inferior to the normal one because you get it after the Fire trial (which is arguably the best matchup for Araquanid)

Totem Lurantis is technically better than normal one because you don't bother dragging a Fomantis around (since Fomantis evolves at level 34, which is past Olivia), but neither of them is particularly better than the other when it comes to matchups

Totem Salazzle was at one point tiered higher than the normal Salandit, but I merged them since the Totem one skips Lurantis and there aren't a lot of differences later on. Getting a female Salandit isn't particularly difficult since you can simply get a male Eevee (the hatched one is always male) and evolve it into a Sylveon (which is trivial once you get Rainbow beans)

Totem Vikavolt is outright inferior to the normal one, since Charjabug can help out handily in some of the earlier matchups.

Totem Togedemaru, I feel like, could maybe actually rank higher than the normal one even though it skips Totem Mimikyu (where the normal one needs some help with breaking DIsguise, since it gets 2HKOed by Mimikyu). This is because the combination of Sturdy + Endeavor + Spiky Shield can help against opponents like Totem Kommo-o (and Ultra Necrozma, save for Spiky Shield). Though Togedemaru might also have a case for B in general, depending on where Alolan Golem ends up ultimately.

Totem Mimikyu is superior to the normal Mimikyu, but because it is available in both games, Mimikyu's ranking assumes you are using the Totem one

Totem Ribombee and Totem Kommo-o are post-game, so not relevant

===
as a heads up, I had done a Rowlet run (alongside a few Fire-types) and had another run going on, but kinda left it aside since the thread died in activity, if this picks up again, I can share my Rowlet run and try to finish the other run so I can pack the list for write-ups
 
Started a new run (UM) and I'm at Mount Hokulani. Also playing in set if it matters.

I'm running with (they aren't all fully evolved yet)

Bewear
Machamp
Salamence (direct from SOS)
Metagross
Vikavolt
Blastoise
Tsareena


I've picked Bewear to go forward rather than Machamp, obviously there is some personal preference here (and it's an Alola mon) but its ability is just far far superior and it just felt superior to use.

Salamence is great to use honestly, I totally understand it's a pain to acquire but I'm enjoying it. Its movepool is pretty decent given it can learn Brick Break TM and a decent amount of other TMs. No Flying STAB for a while though I suppose. I guess Shelgon would probably be better / more realistic since it also comes at a proper level so you don't need to be "behind".

I will say that if catch rate/ease of obtaining is concerned Beldum/Metagross should get a nudge downwards - it has a catch rate of 3 (...) and can kill itself with Take Down (...), no other thoughts yet though

Grubbin/Vikavolt is a hard one - I traded it over to my completed US and evolved it because I was just tired of waiting for it to evolve - I'm rather confused what makes it a high tier mon if it gets the evolution kinda late (Eviolite sure, but it still feels bad). Once evolved though, it's much more comfortable to use

Squirtle/Blastoise just seems okay-ish, Waterium Z helps keeps it relevant. Kinda thinking of catching a Staryu/Starmie but I don't know.

No thoughts on Tsareena yet

I was considering a Salazzle but its movepool is kinda meh for my tastes at least.
 
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Ryota Mitarai

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I've picked Bewear to go forward rather than Machamp, obviously there is some personal preference here (and it's an Alola mon) but its ability is just far far superior and it just felt superior to use.
yeah, Stufful is slightly better than Machamp since it fares better against non-advantageous matchups (like Kahili) thanks to Fluffy. Earlier availability doesn't mean much since Machop becomes good only after evolving, which is around the same time you are getting Stufful. Whether someone thinks this is worth a tier difference, I don't know, but I am perfectly okay with it remaining this way if no one objects to it

I will say that if catch rate/ease of obtaining is concerned Beldum/Metagross should get a nudge downwards - it has a catch rate of 3 (...) and can kill itself with Take Down (...), no other thoughts yet though
Beldum initially started at C, moved to B, then dropped back to C, with the main argument against it being exactly what you described: it's a huge hassle to get. I will also add that Metang isn't the most impressive Pokemon ever and really takes off only after you get Metagross. On the bright side, though, it covers a plethora of the endgame opponents, most notably Ultra Necrozma, which gives it a huge boost in its final ranking

Grubbin/Vikavolt is a hard one - I traded it over to my completed US and evolved it because I was just tired of waiting for it to evolve - I'm rather confused what makes it a high tier mon if it gets the evolution kinda late (Eviolite sure, but it still feels bad). Once evolved though, it's much more comfortable to use
Unfortunately, I don't have modern logs on me for Vikavolt (which might be bad when it comes to write-ups, will see if I have to run it again), but Grubbin does have a few matchups before evolving that help mitigate its otherwise unimpressive performance. In particular, it can beat the Totem Alolan Raticate (not Gumshoos, though) and Totem Araquanid with one healing. If you go out of your way, you can even get Acrobatics for Hala, though I am obviously not counting it

As a Vikavolt, some of its good matchups include: Mimikyu (get a Charge Beam boost then one shot with Z-Zap Cannon), generally takes out most of Guzma #2 and #3's Pokemon and performs fairly well against Hapu and the Elite Four as a whole with an Agility set. Could maybe make an argument for C-tier, but when I used it a long time ago back then, it sure felt a lot better than C-tier, but a retest might be worth it

Squirtle/Blastoise just seems okay-ish, Waterium Z helps keeps it relevant. Kinda thinking of catching a Staryu/Starmie but I don't know.
if possible, stick with Squirtle, since I am more interested in that. Staryu has some investment issues between the Slow growth rate and the fact its encounter rate isn't particularly good without bubble spots (which are problematic because you have to either regenerate them every time you get anything other than a Staryu with acceptable IVs or you have to save in front of one and restart every time the same happens). It doesn't help that Psychic typing makes Ula'Ula (and most of the endgame) a nightmare for it, so its tier is more-or-less settled.

Squirtle could maybe drop to C, it's certainly the least interesting Water starter (other than maybe Prinplup because of how late it comes, though it does perform decently), since it doesn't have the most colorful typing and/or movepool. With that said, it can get some unexpected sweeps thanks to Work Up / Z-Rain Dance / Torrent shenanigans, but those either require extensive setup or just are not easy to pull off, so those can hold it back for sure.

===

Decided to stop being lazy and write up that run I talked about. It involved Rowlet / Tauros / Machamp / Flareon / Marshtomp / Fletchling

So Rowlet is one of the last Pokemon I put on the spotlight and that's cause it has never received much attention, compared to the other starters. I have used it in previous runs as well and pretty much reached the same conclusion: Rowlet is a decent Pokemon as a whole and I don't see a reason to drop it from B-tier. To keep it short, Rowlet has a great early- and mid-game thanks to its typing and while Ghost typing isn't the most favorable type later on, it did help it achieve a few good matchups, thus mitigating the period somewhat. To elaborate on some good matchups:

- Hala: simply Z-Work Up and spam Peck, no healing needed
- Araquanid: a +1 Z-Peck tends to be an OHKO and you are faster and Aurora Beam is a 3HKO, so you are good here
- Lurantis: +1 Z-Pluck is all you need for an OHKO
- Mimikyu: if you break Disguise with something else, you can live a Shadow Claw and OHKO back with Sinister Arrow Raid
- Nanu: one-shots Sableye with Sinister Arrow Raid, lives a Crunch from Krokorok and then kills it with Giga Drain
- Hapu: this should be self-explanatory, only make sure to Sinister Arrow Raid Flygon if you want an OHKO
- Molayne: this one was surprising. Basically, you Nasty Plot to the max against Klefki, OHKO it with Shadow Ball, then heal it against Bisharp (you live in Overgrow range) and spam Giga Drain to OHKO it and Dugtrio. Shadow Ball handles Metagross and Magnezone doesn't threaten you if you spam Giga Drain. A bit more convoluted than I wanted it to be, but I will still give it some credit here
- Olivia: simply Nasty Plot and spam Giga Drain. You are rarely threatened here, which is only a result of unlucky paralyses
- Acerola: beats everything but Froslass (which is faster)
- Hau: beats Primarina, Raichu, and (with Z-Shadow Ball) Crabominable.

one thing you will notice is that I used special Decidueye later on. Much like Incineroar, it seems to work better with special moves and the E4 logs kinda show it.


Will most likely keep this in C-tier, albeit on the lower end of it if I had such branches. Getting one with Intimidate isn't a fun task, but it does help it be useful in most fights. It comes close to winning against threats like Marowak and Araquanid and can even win some fights on its own like Lurantis, Togedemaru, and Mimikyu, albeit with some caveats. Overall, it's fairly decent as a whole, though finding one + Slow growth rate can suck.


I talked about it earlier, but it does have a good amount of bad matchups and it doesn't help that Machamp's first good matchup is either at Lurantis or Olivia. It's not a bad Pokemon by all means, but when it has something like 6 good matchups only, it does put any potential claims to A-tier at question


I am putting those two together since they are part of a dilemma I am in: do I push most Fire-types to B-tier or push almost all of them (save for Litwick and Litten) to C-tier? I personally lean towards pushing them to B-tier, since most Fire-types (including Salandit) perform very similarly to each other; all of them are good for Lurantis, Togedemaru (Talonflame less so, but it can win), Guzma, Ribombee, and Molayne, occassionally, some of them contribute to other fights that the others don't (e.g. Litwick is good for Hala, Talonflame is good for Kommo-o, etc.). Growlithe might be the only exception to this due to its Slow growth rate, though it does have Intimidate to provide some usefulness in other matchups, so I am somewhat doubled here. Will most likely move everything but Growlithe to B-tier, if other people don't have objections.

You may ask why most of those can share the same tier as Litten, which is a starter. The reason is that Litten becomes good around the same time as other Fire-types; while it comes earlier, its only contributions that are close to "relevant" are potentially winning the Melemele trials and this involves going out of your way to win those (Verdant trial requires overleveling significantly for Double Kick, Hala requires extensive Work Up setup and Blaze with careful healing), so it doesn't really differ that much in the long run


I used this since last time I used, I had forgotten to teach it Water Pledge. Turns out that this indeed improves its performance; thanks to it, Marshtomp could beat Marowak relatively underleveled (level 22, wheres many other Water-types end up around 24-25). It also beats Togedemaru as a Swampert quite easily and is perhaps one of the few Pokemon to have little difficulties with Molayne. It has a few more good matchups, but given that it checks so many key opponents in one slot, it definitely deserves no less than B-tier.


I was a bit more detailed with Rowlet and the Fire-types, since those are of bigger interest to me, feel free to provide comments for those (or any other Pokemon) if anyone wishes to.
 
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Will stick with Squirtle; I think a lot of Pokemon just need to reach their final evo sooner and it's more satisfying and obviously stronger. Somewhat considering replacing Tsareena, not sure yet though

On an off-topic hypothetical, if mega-stones and evolution were introduced early on in the game (say, purchaseable using BP at the beaches) what Pokemon would instantly shoot up? Would any go down due to the power creep?
 
yeah, Stufful is slightly better than Machamp since it fares better against non-advantageous matchups (like Kahili) thanks to Fluffy. Earlier availability doesn't mean much since Machop becomes good only after evolving, which is around the same time you are getting Stufful. Whether someone thinks this is worth a tier difference, I don't know, but I am perfectly okay with it remaining this way if no one objects to it


Beldum initially started at C, moved to B, then dropped back to C, with the main argument against it being exactly what you described: it's a huge hassle to get. I will also add that Metang isn't the most impressive Pokemon ever and really takes off only after you get Metagross. On the bright side, though, it covers a plethora of the endgame opponents, most notably Ultra Necrozma, which gives it a huge boost in its final ranking


Unfortunately, I don't have modern logs on me for Vikavolt (which might be bad when it comes to write-ups, will see if I have to run it again), but Grubbin does have a few matchups before evolving that help mitigate its otherwise unimpressive performance. In particular, it can beat the Totem Alolan Raticate (not Gumshoos, though) and Totem Araquanid with one healing. If you go out of your way, you can even get Acrobatics for Hala, though I am obviously not counting it

As a Vikavolt, some of its good matchups include: Mimikyu (get a Charge Beam boost then one shot with Z-Zap Cannon), generally takes out most of Guzma #2 and #3's Pokemon and performs fairly well against Hapu and the Elite Four as a whole with an Agility set. Could maybe make an argument for C-tier, but when I used it a long time ago back then, it sure felt a lot better than C-tier, but a retest might be worth it


if possible, stick with Squirtle, since I am more interested in that. Staryu has some investment issues between the Slow growth rate and the fact its encounter rate isn't particularly good without bubble spots (which are problematic because you have to either regenerate them every time you get anything other than a Staryu with acceptable IVs or you have to save in front of one and restart every time the same happens). It doesn't help that Psychic typing makes Ula'Ula (and most of the endgame) a nightmare for it, so its tier is more-or-less settled.

Squirtle could maybe drop to C, it's certainly the least interesting Water starter (other than maybe Prinplup because of how late it comes, though it does perform decently), since it doesn't have the most colorful typing and/or movepool. With that said, it can get some unexpected sweeps thanks to Work Up / Z-Rain Dance / Torrent shenanigans, but those either require extensive setup or just are not easy to pull off, so those can hold it back for sure.

===

Decided to stop being lazy and write up that run I talked about. It involved Rowlet / Tauros / Machamp / Flareon / Marshtomp / Fletchling

So Rowlet is one of the last Pokemon I put on the spotlight and that's cause it has never received much attention, compared to the other starters. I have used it in previous runs as well and pretty much reached the same conclusion: Rowlet is a decent Pokemon as a whole and I don't see a reason to drop it from B-tier. To keep it short, Rowlet has a great early- and mid-game thanks to its typing and while Ghost typing isn't the most favorable type later on, it did help it achieve a few good matchups, thus mitigating the period somewhat. To elaborate on some good matchups:

- Hala: simply Z-Work Up and spam Peck, no healing needed
- Araquanid: a +1 Z-Peck tends to be an OHKO and you are faster and Aurora Beam is a 3HKO, so you are good here
- Lurantis: +1 Z-Pluck is all you need for an OHKO
- Mimikyu: if you break Disguise with something else, you can live a Shadow Claw and OHKO back with Sinister Arrow Raid
- Nanu: one-shots Sableye with Sinister Arrow Raid, lives a Crunch from Krokorok and then kills it with Giga Drain
- Hapu: this should be self-explanatory, only make sure to Sinister Arrow Raid Flygon if you want an OHKO
- Molayne: this one was surprising. Basically, you Nasty Plot to the max against Klefki, OHKO it with Shadow Ball, then heal it against Bisharp (you live in Overgrow range) and spam Giga Drain to OHKO it and Dugtrio. Shadow Ball handles Metagross and Magnezone doesn't threaten you if you spam Giga Drain. A bit more convoluted than I wanted it to be, but I will still give it some credit here
- Olivia: simply Nasty Plot and spam Giga Drain. You are rarely threatened here, which is only a result of unlucky paralyses
- Acerola: beats everything but Froslass (which is faster)
- Hau: beats Primarina, Raichu, and (with Z-Shadow Ball) Crabominable.

one thing you will notice is that I used special Decidueye later on. Much like Incineroar, it seems to work better with special moves and the E4 logs kinda show it.


Will most likely keep this in C-tier, albeit on the lower end of it if I had such branches. Getting one with Intimidate isn't a fun task, but it does help it be useful in most fights. It comes close to winning against threats like Marowak and Araquanid and can even win some fights on its own like Lurantis, Togedemaru, and Mimikyu, albeit with some caveats. Overall, it's fairly decent as a whole, though finding one + Slow growth rate can suck.


I talked about it earlier, but it does have a good amount of bad matchups and it doesn't help that Machamp's first good matchup is either at Lurantis or Olivia. It's not a bad Pokemon by all means, but when it has something like 6 good matchups only, it does put any potential claims to A-tier at question


I am putting those two together since they are part of a dilemma I am in: do I push most Fire-types to B-tier or push almost all of them (save for Litwick and Litten) to C-tier? I personally lean towards pushing them to B-tier, since most Fire-types (including Salandit) perform very similarly to each other; all of them are good for Lurantis, Togedemaru (Talonflame less so, but it can win), Guzma, Ribombee, and Molayne, occassionally, some of them contribute to other fights that the others don't (e.g. Litwick is good for Hala, Talonflame is good for Kommo-o, etc.). Growlithe might be the only exception to this due to its Slow growth rate, though it does have Intimidate to provide some usefulness in other matchups, so I am somewhat doubled here. Will most likely move everything but Growlithe to B-tier, if other people don't have objections.

You may ask why most of those can share the same tier as Litten, which is a starter. The reason is that Litten becomes good around the same time as other Fire-types; while it comes earlier, its only contributions that are close to "relevant" are potentially winning the Melemele trials and this involves going out of your way to win those (Verdant trial requires overleveling significantly for Double Kick, Hala requires extensive Work Up setup and Blaze with careful healing), so it doesn't really differ that much in the long run


I used this since last time I used, I had forgotten to teach it Water Pledge. Turns out that this indeed improves its performance; thanks to it, Marshtomp could beat Marowak relatively underleveled (level 22, wheres many other Water-types end up around 24-25). It also beats Togedemaru as a Swampert quite easily and is perhaps one of the few Pokemon to have little difficulties with Molayne. It has a few more good matchups, but given that it checks so many key opponents in one slot, it definitely deserves no less than B-tier.


I was a bit more detailed with Rowlet and the Fire-types, since those are of bigger interest to me, feel free to provide comments for those (or any other Pokemon) if anyone wishes to.
Is there a particular reason Litten is B? Is it just coming at the beginning of the game? Its Torracat phase is truly awful, even with Eviolite it gets destroyed in matchups it should win like against Togedemaru or Lurantis. I'm on Ula'Ula now but I can't imagine it's that great for late-game with a bad matchup against all the Poni Trials and most of the Elite Four save for Molayne and maybe Kahili. I was able to get a good hit on Mimikyu with Incinium Z but it's been very disappointing thus far and feels more like C.
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributor
Regarding Lurantis, Torracat should easily win with Z-Fire Fang alone, if you somehowly feel like it will miss the KO, you can set up a Work Up to guarantee it (we do not penalize usage of Z-Moves in major battles)

For Togedemaru, I feel like most people should have an Incineroar at that point which can simply set up a Work Up and aim for high damage / maybe KO (I don't remember if you could OHKO from full) Z-Fire Punch (alternatively, you teach Fire Pledge and use that instead). I am not sure how you are playing, perhaps with Exp. Share off?

for later matchups, it's important to take into account how Incineroar is used. Although it sounds absurd, Incineroar performs a lot better if it has a special Fire move (most notably Flamethrower), as most major foes are physically bulky rather than specially bulky.

The starter availability certainly plays some role, though, but for all intents and purposes, Litten performs about the same as other Fire-types, given that they all pick up at around the same point (although not all Fire-types have been ranked consistently, but that's moreso cause I want to get a consensus on this just to be on the safe side). Realistically, if Litten were to fall to C, so would most other Fire-types.

I will put some of the matchups Litten has against major foes if you want to explore its performance (I have listed only fights that are not obvious losses), but for most parts, it has a solid amount of good matchups that I think justify the B-tier ranking. Edit: Guzma was skipped out of laziness, but it wins all three matchups

Litten

Gumshoos(14): +1 Fire Fang 2HKOes Gumshoos, which 3HKOes with Tackle and outspeeds after Scary Face. However, Yungoos can make things worse.

Hala(18): Z-Work Up then Work Up to OHKO Machop with Fire Fang. Makuhita can live any attack and Sand-attack you. Crabrawler is OHKOed only if you are in Blaze range, otherwise, it lives and then Z-PuPs you. Not particularly impressive.

Lurantis(27): +1 Z-Fire Fang OHKOes

Togedemaru(36): +1 Z-Fire Punch OHKOes Togedemaru, Zing Zap flinches are your only issue

Guzma(45): Specs Flamtherower kills everything, Masquerain goes for Bug Buzz, but fails to kill you

Nanu(45): Flame Charge on Sableye, Z-Sunny Day, then Flame Charge to KO Sableye since you will be in Blaze range. Then you outspeed and OHKO the rest with Flamethrower

Guzma(49): Specs Flamethrower spam wins

Ribombee(58): Z-Flare Blitz into Flare Blitz KOes Ribombee

Molayne(63): Specs Flamethrower spam wins against everything but Magnezone (lives an EQ from Dugtrio)

Olivia(63): Bulk Up twice, then KO Armaldo, then Gigalith with Z-BB. Lycanroc ends your sweep


Some of the levels may feel a bit jacked up, but that's what happens when you come so early and have a Medium Slow growth rate (and play with Exp. Share on)
 
Regarding Lurantis, Torracat should easily win with Z-Fire Fang alone, if you somehowly feel like it will miss the KO, you can set up a Work Up to guarantee it (we do not penalize usage of Z-Moves in major battles)

For Togedemaru, I feel like most people should have an Incineroar at that point which can simply set up a Work Up and aim for high damage / maybe KO (I don't remember if you could OHKO from full) Z-Fire Punch (alternatively, you teach Fire Pledge and use that instead). I am not sure how you are playing, perhaps with Exp. Share off?

for later matchups, it's important to take into account how Incineroar is used. Although it sounds absurd, Incineroar performs a lot better if it has a special Fire move (most notably Flamethrower), as most major foes are physically bulky rather than specially bulky.

The starter availability certainly plays some role, though, but for all intents and purposes, Litten performs about the same as other Fire-types, given that they all pick up at around the same point (although not all Fire-types have been ranked consistently, but that's moreso cause I want to get a consensus on this just to be on the safe side). Realistically, if Litten were to fall to C, so would most other Fire-types.

I will put some of the matchups Litten has against major foes if you want to explore its performance (I have listed only fights that are not obvious losses), but for most parts, it has a solid amount of good matchups that I think justify the B-tier ranking. Edit: Guzma was skipped out of laziness, but it wins all three matchups

Litten

Gumshoos(14): +1 Fire Fang 2HKOes Gumshoos, which 3HKOes with Tackle and outspeeds after Scary Face. However, Yungoos can make things worse.

Hala(18): Z-Work Up then Work Up to OHKO Machop with Fire Fang. Makuhita can live any attack and Sand-attack you. Crabrawler is OHKOed only if you are in Blaze range, otherwise, it lives and then Z-PuPs you. Not particularly impressive.

Lurantis(27): +1 Z-Fire Fang OHKOes

Togedemaru(36): +1 Z-Fire Punch OHKOes Togedemaru, Zing Zap flinches are your only issue

Guzma(45): Specs Flamtherower kills everything, Masquerain goes for Bug Buzz, but fails to kill you

Nanu(45): Flame Charge on Sableye, Z-Sunny Day, then Flame Charge to KO Sableye since you will be in Blaze range. Then you outspeed and OHKO the rest with Flamethrower

Guzma(49): Specs Flamethrower spam wins

Ribombee(58): Z-Flare Blitz into Flare Blitz KOes Ribombee

Molayne(63): Specs Flamethrower spam wins against everything but Magnezone (lives an EQ from Dugtrio)

Olivia(63): Bulk Up twice, then KO Armaldo, then Gigalith with Z-BB. Lycanroc ends your sweep


Some of the levels may feel a bit jacked up, but that's what happens when you come so early and have a Medium Slow growth rate (and play with Exp. Share on)
I have exp share on but had a team of 5 as of early Akala and didn't use Torracat much comparatively so mine got a bit underleveled I guess, I was at 32 during Togedemaru. Mine's also Modest which may be why I'm not getting much damage output from Fire Fang- even Z-Fire Fang did just a bit more than half to Togedemaru with the buff it starts with. Don't recall exactly what my issue was with Lurantis but I got fucked over by the Comfey partner and overwhelmed with the buffs it gave Lurantis pretty quickly - when I rerolled and got Kecleon things were much more workable. I didn't even know where the Pledge Tutors were or think to use them (also was not aware they had 80 BP and not 50) so I think I'll get more mileage out of that, operator error on thst one
 
I just did 3 quick run throughs of Ultra Sun and thought I would add my experience.

Oricorio - I didn't really feel this was S tier. It's really good, but only in specific situations for its STAB. Doesn't have too many moves outside of that. Takes a long time to get Revelation Dance too.

Magikarp - Takes a long time to get Aqua Tail, and then when you do, it still misses quite a lot. Basically only a single STAB without flying moves. I was hoping for it to be awesome, but it let me down from time to time.

Mankey - Should be way higher IMO. It has great moveset, hits hard, fast. Should be A I think.

Totem Marowak - Love the moveset. Typing had a lot of weaknesses. Took a lot of time to get 40 stickers, and also took time to steal a thick club. The low speed was really annoying, but could 1KO most fights. Think this should be a B based on a number of inefficiencies.

Grimer - This should be A IMO. Catch it early. Dark typing puts out a lot of production. Poison typing is a lifesaver against all the fairy types. This one did so much work for me. Honestly this almost could be S tier even.

Archen - This could be an A. Fairly easy to get although comes mid-game. Comes slightly underleveled, but after you catch it up, it can perform in almost any fight. Great attack power and moves.

Krokorok - This should be B. It comes late, no question. But it was only 5 levels under when I got it, and once I caught up, it was useful in almost every fight. Awesome movepool, great attack.
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
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(Late response)

Krokorok and Mankey could admittedly receive some reevaluation, since those were placed a long time ago and have never really received much attention. I don't think they'd raise to B and A, respectively, but C and B could work if better strategies in regards to their usage are found

Oricorio, Magikarp, Grimer, and Marowak generally are agreed to be correct where they are and would probably need more arguments to budge them up (and I am pretty set on Oricorio and Grimer's rankings, as those have received a *lot* of attention). Regarding your Marowak points, Flame Charge can always be used in matchups where Speed is needed and most of what I'd dub "time losses" aren't really much of time losses; the Totem Stickers are a matter of reading a guide and using Charizard Glide for any stickers that need a backtrack and a Thick Club can be stolen directly from the opposing Totem Marowak; the latter even has the advantage of making the fight substantially easier.

Archen is something for which I'd need more arguments to consider raising. It comes pretty underleveled (a standard USUM run will have stuff in around the 24-26 level range, so Archen is underleveled by around 10 levels) and many of its major matchups are hindered by Defeatist, which is further worsened by its lack of bulk, making it fairly easy to place it in Defeatist range.

If I find more time, I may retest Krokorok, Mankey, and a bunch of other stuff and most likely move this to write-ups due to a lack of activity
 
(Late response)

Krokorok and Mankey could admittedly receive some reevaluation, since those were placed a long time ago and have never really received much attention. I don't think they'd raise to B and A, respectively, but C and B could work if better strategies in regards to their usage are found

Oricorio, Magikarp, Grimer, and Marowak generally are agreed to be correct where they are and would probably need more arguments to budge them up (and I am pretty set on Oricorio and Grimer's rankings, as those have received a *lot* of attention). Regarding your Marowak points, Flame Charge can always be used in matchups where Speed is needed and most of what I'd dub "time losses" aren't really much of time losses; the Totem Stickers are a matter of reading a guide and using Charizard Glide for any stickers that need a backtrack and a Thick Club can be stolen directly from the opposing Totem Marowak; the latter even has the advantage of making the fight substantially easier.

Archen is something for which I'd need more arguments to consider raising. It comes pretty underleveled (a standard USUM run will have stuff in around the 24-26 level range, so Archen is underleveled by around 10 levels) and many of its major matchups are hindered by Defeatist, which is further worsened by its lack of bulk, making it fairly easy to place it in Defeatist range.

If I find more time, I may retest Krokorok, Mankey, and a bunch of other stuff and most likely move this to write-ups due to a lack of activity
Mankey - What I love about it is there is no extra work needed to be put into mankey. You don't need to go gathering tm's, you don't need to level it up, its just good on its own. It fast, high attack, variety of useful moves, comes early. Pretty much everything you want.

Krokoro - Apart from being late, Krokorok's Moxie ability is crazy good. I swept almost all the elite 4 and champion with just Krokorok and never needed another pokemon. Unlike Mankey, there needs to be a period of training to catch it up since you get it late and underleveled.

Can you explain to me why Oricorio and Magikarp are rated so highly? I didn't find that to be true in my experience, but maybe I didn't use them correctly.
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributor
Can you explain to me why Oricorio and Magikarp are rated so highly? I didn't find that to be true in my experience, but maybe I didn't use them correctly.
Sure!

Oricorio
While you are correct in that Oricorio doesn't have much of a coverage, it arguably doesn't need it. Flying is a great typing in USUM with the early Flyinium Z and this allows Oricorio to perform well against a huge amount of major battles. In particular, those are Hala, Araquanid, Lurantis, Guzma, Kommo-o, and Ribombee. On top of this, its ability to change its typing makes it pretty flexible, netting it a win against Molayne and Kahili with the correct typing. While it does have a few bad matchups like Togedemaru and Marowak, Oricorio can assist teammates with Featherdance and trivialize them completely, which negates most of the few bad traits it has

Magikarp
For transparency's sake, Magikarp started out in S-tier and dropped to A-tier after some discussion in the thread. Gyarados, much like Oricorio, takes advantage of Flyinium Z to beat an plentiful amount of major battles. What sets it apart are its fairly solid Marowak matchup and sweeping capabilities; it learns Dragon Dance at level 45, which can be as early as Nanu (or Guzma #2 if you try really hard, though it arguably does not need it there), which gives it some pretty solid matchups later on.

Its main negatives are, as you mentioned, its tendency to miss with moves, which was one of the main arguments that supported a drop to A-tier, and a Slow growth rate; this is particularly troublesome if you wind up with an underleveled Magikarp, forcing you to spend some time searching for a high-leveled one if you get unlucky with it


Sweeping capabilities is almost certainly what I am going to try out with a retest on Krokorok. I mainly need to see if I can get a sweep or two outside the E4 (or one against Hau). If I can get some good additional results, it almost certainly will rise.
 

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