Format Discussion Pokemon Sword & Shield Random Doubles Battle Sets

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This thread will be a space for users to give feedback, input, and suggestions on the sets in Gen 8 Random Doubles.

What to post here:
- Reports and/or screenshots of objectively bad movesets. Keep in mind that some of the moves you may consider 'bad' may be more viable in doubles than in singles.
- Suggestions for new sets, with your reasoning for why such set could be an improvement.

What not to post here:
- One-line comments. Feedback without reasoning is generally unhelpful.
- Singles Random Battles suggestions. We have a separate thread for singles suggestions here.
- Complaints regarding "unfair sets". Sets will not be nerfed just because people think a Pokemon may be too good.
- Random Battle complaints not specifically about Gen 8 Random Doubles Battle.


Thanks again to everybody who helped make this format what it is, and we hope you all enjoy playing with the new doubles sets!
 
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breh

強いだね
Is baton pass removed from everything? Pokemon like Ninjask and Malamar (among others) can probably make good use of it.

Swoobat should not get simple if it does not have stat boosting moves (and... probably shouldn't not get stat boosting moves at all).
 

breh

強いだね
JavaScript:
ninjask: {
        randomBattleMoves: ["acrobatics", "leechlife", "nightslash", "swordsdance"],
        randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["acrobatics", "defog", "leechlife", "protect", "swordsdance"],
        tier: "NU",
        doublesTier: "(DUU)",
    }
am I missing something? I control fd through the whole file and didn't find a single instance of baton pass. I'm also not too sure removing hazards or terrains is valuable either, especially for a pokemon like ninjask that probably values its moveslots a bit more than that

some mons that could enjoy bp:

togekiss (if NP is rolled)
espeon (if cm is rolled)
kantonian farfetch'd (if brave bird is rolled; this one may be particularly amusing)
swoobat (imagine bp / cm / airstream / last slot lol)
polteageist (idk how to feel about this since on one hand smash pass but on the other hand losing your white herb early to intimidate etc. means you bp defense drops as well which is awkward, it also eats a slot and all of its moves are valuable)

wrt swoobat: if the pokemon has simple in its ability pool and setup moves in its move pool, reject any move until it has a setup move. +2 def or SpD isn't worth anything when swoobat takes up a slot while spamming low BP moves off of its 73 base SpA and does zero damage while its opponents double into the other, more threatening slot. bibarel faces similar problems, whenever that comes to exist

also giga drain on swoobat is probably bad - it's weak and can't even take advantage of its own terrain if dynamaxed either
 
JavaScript:
ninjask: {
        randomBattleMoves: ["acrobatics", "leechlife", "nightslash", "swordsdance"],
        randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["acrobatics", "defog", "leechlife", "protect", "swordsdance"],
        tier: "NU",
        doublesTier: "(DUU)",
    }
am I missing something? I control fd through the whole file and didn't find a single instance of baton pass. I'm also not too sure removing hazards or terrains is valuable either, especially for a pokemon like ninjask that probably values its moveslots a bit more than that

some mons that could enjoy bp:

togekiss (if NP is rolled)
espeon (if cm is rolled)
kantonian farfetch'd (if brave bird is rolled; this one may be particularly amusing)
swoobat (imagine bp / cm / airstream / last slot lol)
polteageist (idk how to feel about this since on one hand smash pass but on the other hand losing your white herb early to intimidate etc. means you bp defense drops as well which is awkward, it also eats a slot and all of its moves are valuable)

wrt swoobat: if the pokemon has simple in its ability pool and setup moves in its move pool, reject any move until it has a setup move. +2 def or SpD isn't worth anything when swoobat takes up a slot while spamming low BP moves off of its 73 base SpA and does zero damage while its opponents double into the other, more threatening slot. bibarel faces similar problems, whenever that comes to exist

also giga drain on swoobat is probably bad - it's weak and can't even take advantage of its own terrain if dynamaxed either
Ninjask had BP, this format has gone through a lot of hands since we created these sets and additions and subtractions have been made that we don't always catch. I honestly thought BP Ninjask made the final roster, didn't realize it was removed at some point. We'll discuss re-adding it. Defog is neat on Ninjask not only for webs, which in our play have kind of dominated the format, but also for speedy screen removal, allowing your other Pokemon to get off an un-screened hit. Ninjask will get Leech Life and Acrobatics every time, and from there it's comfortable rolling two of the three remaining moves in its pool (and/or BP) for a solid set.

On the others:
-Togekiss serves a mixed roll between support and setup, adding BP makes this a lot more complicated
-Passing lone CMs isn't terribly useful and Espeon generally isn't setting up more than one or two in doubles
-Fetch'd idea sounds kind of... far-fetched... It relies heavily on dynamax and do you really expect fetch'd to live long enough to pull this off?
-Swoobat wants coverage, but I can see the case for this more than the others
-Polt really wants its coverage moves, but I do remember discussing smash-pass Polt when creating sets. This one could definitely be revisited later.

Swoobat:
The alternative to simple is unaware. Swoobat unboosted is certainly too frail to care about ignoring boosts, given that unboosted attacks kill it anyway. Even if it doesn't roll setup, Simple allows it to grab extra boosts from its own Max Airstream, should it choose to dynamax, or extra boosts from its teammate's max moves. We also have support moves in the format (read: acupressure) that can make use of Swoobat's unique ability to double boosts. I think Giga Drain on Swoobat is a situational thing, but it's certainly the weak link on the move set. If we feel as if CM Swoobat becomes too uncommon, it's likely we cut Giga in an attempt to fix it.
 
To add to this, and to serve as a note for future posters, defog is an unfortunate reality for some mons. In playtesting we found that webs were so hilariously strong we needed to add some amount of hazard control to the meta. Any pokemon that either a) only needs a few moves to be effective or b) is terrible no mater what you do to it has a chance to roll defog or rapid spin. Ninjask gets no moves and is fine with its stab, so defog it is.
 

breh

強いだね
BP: I can admit that espeon is kinda questionable, but for the others, if no setup move and no (defiant & flying-type move), reject baton pass. in the case of togekiss, it may be a good idea to reject baton pass with follow me (to avoid air slash / follow me / bp / np which is... not necessarily bad since, like, togekiss, but seems awkward).

Swoobat: Any set of a Pokemon with Simple that does not get a setup move is going to be objectively bad. It is better to put in code rejecting non-setup moves while the mon has none rather than leave it as is and have like 50% of the sets be trash. Simple max airstream is not valuable by itself when swoobat is fast as is and without is still at +1 anyway. there are 5 acupressure users in the whole meta.

if swoobat is forced to get cm from here on out, this makes giga drain's place worse, as it gets rid of either a spread move, max airstream, protect, or psychic STAB in existing, all for questionable benefit.

if defog is as valuable as it is supposed to be, there are 3 mons that get it and only 1 of them (crobat) is probably an ideal user. the move could be more suitable on bulkier pokemon like fini or pokemon that have important low acc moves as well (tornadus, zapdos / moltres with hurricane). part of the problem is also defog and tailwind having very overlapping learnpools so introducing more defoggers may necessitate rejecting one if it has the other.
 

breh

強いだね
toxapex is kind of garbo since all it's gonna do is sit there, but wide guard is probably nice for it

occa durant is kind of bad since it's still a good dynamax and appreciates LO (in and out of dynamax) far more than it appreciates occa since it is simply not strong enough to tank most fire moves.

what is pjab drednaw

level balancing on bst is actually kind of insane. legendaries are not objectively awful but largely a lot worse than the average mon. pokemon with low bst but good distribution of that bst (ex. aforementioned durant as well as other frail, non-mixed sweepers) benefit significantly.
 

breh

強いだね
pokemon with follow me not getting follow me is frustrating. it's an incredibly powerful move and I somehow managed to luck into the one raichu without either follow me or fake out. if the pokemon has follow me in its movepool, it should reject moves until it gets follow me, unless it has setup moves. if the setup move is purely offensive, then do whatever, if the setup move is partly defensive (qd), the combo of the two is ok, I think. same goes for rage powder.

volcorona could stand to gain from rage powder as well, imo.
 
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breh

強いだね
pokemon with mid-range speed don't need to run 0 speed trick room. the move is useful for speed control, but something like lunatone (which sits at base 70) can deal with having its speed as is. frankly, this is already kind of true for singles, but particularly more notable here.

kyurem-b with freeze shock???? even if this was intended to be icicle spear, mono-attacking kyu-b is actually really bad. I got roost / protect / dd / freeze shock. almost any combo of 2 atks / protect / [dd or roost or attack 3] is ok and 3 non-attacking moves high key sucks.

flare blitz / protect / sd / ms rapidash, maybe just remove ms

oranguru should objectively have instruct

I'm not sure how viable leech seed is on various pokemon that get it, with maybe ferrothorn as the sole exception, assuming it gets protect.

venusaur: I want to say that there's precedent to this running leech seed in vgcs as the mega, but the bulk difference / no thick fat between the two is somewhat stark. if taping over sets is still done, if there is a pokemon with drought on the team, tape over earth power with weather ball.

gourgeist: these have bloated movepools, half of them don't have protect despite being more or less utility mons. I'm not sure the extent to which any of them need synthesis, pain split, or foul play. they all can get ally switch which is my favorite meme move from randdubs so far.

eldegoss: this needs like 5 moves (protect / hh / pollen puff / [grass] / sleep powder); synthesis and leech seed are not necessarily that valuable

appletun: its movepool is so barren that this isn't awful, but maybe rejecting if no protect is better. hell, maybe it can just run apple acid protect screens?

other stuff:

seimitoad: this probably stands to benefit a lot from icy wind. maybe muddy water, too? not sure how I feel about eq, especially given how uncommon protect can feel at times.

decidueye: leaf blade / sd / protect / ss is kind of bad, not sure how to fix

lunatone: earth power is questionably valuable, got the rather trash set of protect / psyshock / ep / tr

leafeon: sd / double edge / leaf blade / protect is not ideal

ribombee: moonblast / hh / webs / tailwind does not need 2 speed control moves, your choice as to whether tailwind or webs is more valuable.

very common theme of pokemon getting sitrus that should get LO, often due to some setup move + protect:

gengar

lucario

sawk

terrakion (Terrakion used Close Combat! It's super effective! (The opposing Mamoswine lost 90% of its health!))

garbodor @ LO w/ gunk shot / drain punch / seed bomb / body slam: bslam and seed bomb are flaming garbage and there is no reason for this to miss explosion and protect for either

wailord: give this selfdestruct you cowards, who needs scarf wailord eq

claydol @ dual screens / protect / psychic: psychic only is really awkward off of claydol's SpA.

shiftry has no business running swords dance or leaf blade, leaf storm and heat wave are more valuable. still has early bird

perrserker conveniently has its relevant movepool (fake out / iron head / cc / crunch) fit into 4 moves. the rest is fluff that removes fake out

raikou @ sitrus with tbolt / vs / aura sphere / protect: I actually hate aura sphere on almost anything that gets it since its damage is always disappointing due to low BP and its coverage here isn't great either. thunder wave is probably very helpful and snarl is probably more valuable than either of scald / aura sphere. calm mind feels iffy since you simply don't have the slots for all of protect / STAB / cm / coverage that isn't garbage because no HP ice

dusknoir: this is objectively worse than dusclops in this meta if you ignore knock off existing. even with knock off existing, I think it still may be worse since both are probably 2HKOed by it. night shade is still its best attacking move; all of shadow sneak, eq, and ice punch take away valuable slots that it could use to support its teammates and do something valuable other than serve as an empty slot to ally switch from. it also gets helping hand in the same vein.

weavile gets chople which is a waste of LO or even sash, given fewer hazards.

kingler doesn't need agility. I think x-scissor is just bad. the gmax may be straight better than the dmax. rock slide is worth even without the ability to flinch. I don't know whether wide guard is valuable in a meta that (as of now) does not have a lot of spread moves, but if that ever changes, it is almost certainly worth.

qwilfish doesn't need swords dance and probably gets the most value out of twaving pokemon and being annoying with intimidate support. explosion may be a fun meme.

vespiquen is a shitshow by nature. it has tailwind? struggle bug? why does gamefreak make a pokemon this depressing?

electivire needs follow me bad. maybe wants twave, but you risk clogging its set with garbage it doesn't need. just follow me / protect / wild charge / ice punch is decidedly acceptable.

talonflame doesn't need roost. wow hogs slots that could otherwise be used for tailwind, defog, or protect.

vaporeon doesn't mix well with wish / toxic / heal bell. wants muddy water over scald. wants helping hand as well.

haxorus doesn't value subsitute. one of the few pokemon that can actually use outrage in doubles because (if level scaling is fixed and its level isn't stupid) it tends to bomb whatever it hits. it gets sitrus which is bad.

not sure how to prevent it, but kingdra with 4 attacks doesn't work. kingdra wants protect.

clefable needs moonblast / protect / follow me. its movepool is way too big at the current moment and thunderbolt / fire blast are super filler that also make it get life orb. icy wind is valuable to put in that 4th slot of 1 million support options. thinking about it more, it is probably not a bad choice to force protect on anything that gets follow me, assuming it's in the movepool.

swords dance / iron tail on lycanroc are bloat (swords dance means losing one of sucker punch (which makes it garbage), protect, or close combat). ideal candidate for rock slide.

ice punch, swords dance, and taunt are bloat on toxicroak. good candidate for brick break.

heatran does not need substitute. eruption is kind of bad when you don't have speed control as a feature of your team and heat wave is a lot safer. there is nothing more depressing than heatran losing to heatmor by default because you only have fire-type moves.

heatmor is too slow to make good use of fire lash. wants heat wave. wow / incinerate are bloat that make you get only fire-type moves.

sd / iron head are bloat on terrakion. as a fast rock type, I don't know why you would want stone edge over rock slide flinches.

what does magic coat do on cresselia? one of relatively few pokemon that can pull off setup (calm mind) in doubles well.

why is corsola-g a thing? clefairy is one of the least bad NFEs missing

4/29

torkoal does not need wow and body press is questionably valuable.

was octillery supposed to get moody hence substitute??

if a pokemon gets sitrus and has harvest in its ability pool, give harvest (natural cure trevenant lol)

4 attack no espeed rayquaza is awful and its movepool is filled with bloat. needs like 5 moves: dmeteor / espeed / protect / air slash / overheat (or vcreate, idk). without espeed, ray is simultaneously frail, weak, and slow. with espeed it can at least serve as more than death fodder and aurora veil blocker. with protect you can actually control the moves that hit it.

4/30

telepathy palkia with no spread moves in team

what is silvally ghost??? of all the silvally, this is one of the more interesting one due to fake out immunity, so... SD xscissor???? its movepool is kind of wide and you can fit a lot of random garbage onto it. defog (or pfangs), explosion, twave, and pshot are among a lot of random moves that it has that fit into its movepool better than either SD or xscissor.

normal silvally can use cb explosion but needs to add pshot to get it

5/1

LO 4 attacks lunatone sucks

5/2

cm moonlight psyshock protect lunaala

5/6

wtf is trick metagross
 
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xzern

for sure
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Hi, i would like to offer some critique of randubs. currently a good portion of the doubles community doesnt like randubs due to odd move combinations and that randubs feels alien to actual doubles.

My biggest qualm with randubs at the moment and my reason for making this post is that most mons that do not have a choice item, assault vest, or fake out should have protect. currently there is only a chance you will get protect, which is frustrating in game since most mons in any doubles format always run protect (except for the aforementioned exceptions) and not having it on your set when someone else does is awkward and leaves you with less options. It would be ideal for most mons to be forced to run protect unless they have fake out, a choice item, or av. On that note, this should also be true for every mon that gets fake out or follow me. I am unsure about this from a coding standpoint as I am not a programmer, but it cant hurt to mention.

After skimming through the document of randbats sets, here are a few suggestions for how i would improve some sets. I put additions in green and removals in red. You will notice that many of my suggestions remove certain defensive moves on offensive mons and weaker offensive moves that are more suited to singles. This is because, in doubles, defensive play can be utilized through the use of protect, fake out, and support partners. Furthermore, there are also certain moves that are generally ineffective in doubles, such as heal bell and wish. Also, not every mon needs to have setup and recovery. There are copious amounts of sets with sd/np/cm. Even with that said, these suggestions should be self-explanatory to anyone who plays doubles. Feel free to comment on my suggestions. i am not the gen 8 randubs master, this is simply my feedback as a doubles player.
venusaur: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["earthpower", "gigadrain", "leechseed", "protect", "sleeppowder", "sludgebomb", "energyball"],

blastoise: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["fakeout", "followme", "icywind", "lifedew", "muddywater", "protect", "scald"],

crobat: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["bravebird", "defog", "roost", "superfang", "tailwind", "taunt", "uturn"],

clefable: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["fireblast", "followme", "healpulse", "helpinghand", "moonblast", "protect", "thunderwave"],
(i would replace this with clefairy)

vileplume: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["aromatherapy", "gigadrain", "pollenpuff", "sleeppowder", "sludgebomb", "strengthsap", "energyball"],

bellossom: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["gigadrain", "moonblast", "quiverdance", "sleeppowder", "strengthsap"]

kingdra: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["dragonpulse", "dracometeor", "hurricane", "hydropump", "icebeam", "muddywater", "raindance"],

gengar: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["focusblast", "nastyplot", "protect", "shadowball", "sludgebomb", "thunderbolt", "trick", "willowisp"],

vaporeon: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["healbell", "icywind", "protect", "scald", "toxic", "wish"],

glaceon: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["blizzard", "freezedry", "helpinghand", "protect", "shadowball", "wish"]

sylveon: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["calmmind", "hypervoice", "mysticalfire", "protect", "psyshock", "wish"],

articuno: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["freezedry", "healbell", "hurricane", "icebeam", "roost", "toxic"],

mew: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["imprison", "protect", "psychic", "transform", "fakeout", "stealthrock", "pollenpuff", "tailwind"],

lanturn: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["healbell", "icebeam", "protect", "scald", "thunderbolt", "thunderwave", "voltswitch", "icywind"],

azumarill: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["aquajet", "icepunch", "knockoff", "liquidation", "playrough", "protect", "superpower", "bellydrum"],

togekiss: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["airslash", "followme", "heatwave", "protect", "roost", "tailwind", "thunderwave", "dazzling gleam"],

suicune: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["airslash", "calmmind", "icebeam", "rest", "scald", "sleeptalk", "tailwind", "icywind"],

celebi: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["calmmind", "earthpower", "gigadrain", "leafstorm", "protect", "psychic", "recover", "pollenpuff", "stealthrock"],

ludicolo: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["fakeout", "gigadrain", "hydropump", "icebeam", "raindance", "muddywater", "energyball"],

pelipper: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["hurricane", "hydropump", "protect", "roost", "tailwind", "wideguard", "uturn"],

ninjask: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["acrobatics", "defog", "leechlife", "protect", "swordsdance"],

sableye: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["disable", "encore", "fakeout", "foulplay", "knockoff", "recover", "willowisp", "taunt", "quash", "feint"],

torkoal: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["bodypress", "earthpower", "fireblast", "lavaplume", "protect", "solarbeam", "willowisp", "heatwave", "eruption"]

milotic: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["dragontail", "icebeam", "icywind", "protect", "recover", "scald", "muddywater"],

metagross: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["agility", "bulletpunch", "earthquake", "icepunch", "meteormash", "trick", "zenheadbutt"],

rayquaza: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["airslash", "dracometeor", "dragonclaw", "earthpower", "energyball", "extremespeed", "hydropump", "protect", "thunderbolt", "vcreate"],

jirachi: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["firepunch", "followme", "ironhead", "lifedew", "protect", "thunderwave", "stealthrock", "icywind"],

cherrim: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["aromatherapy", "energyball", "helpinghand", "pollenpuff", "protect"],

musharna: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["healingwish", "hypnosis", "moonblast", "protect", "psychic", "trickroom"],

excadrill: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["highhorsepower", "ironhead", "protect", "rapidspin", "rockslide", "swordsdance", "substitute"],

gothitelle: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["allyswitch", "fakeout", "healpulse", "helpinghand", "hypnosis", "psychic", "psyshock", "shadowball", "trickroom"],

bisharp: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["brickbreak", "ironhead", "knockoff", "protect", "suckerpunch", "swordsdance"],

reuniclus: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["energyball", "focusblast", "psychic", "psyshock", "recover", "shadowball", "trick", "trickroom"],

chandelure: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["calmmind", "energyball", "heatwave", "overheat", "protect", "shadowball", "trick"],

heatmor: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["firelash", "gigadrain", "incinerate", "protect", "rocktomb", "suckerpunch", "superpower", "willowisp", "heatwave"]

hydreigon: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["darkpulse", "dracometeor", "dragonpulse", "earthpower", "fireblast", "nastyplot", "protect", "tailwind"],

volcarona: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["bugbuzz", "gigadrain", "heatwave", "hurricane", "quiverdance", "roost"],

cobalion: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["ironhead", "protect", "sacredsword", "closecombat", "stoneedge", "swordsdance", "thunderwave"],

terrakion: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["closecombat", "ironhead", "protect", "rockslide", "stoneedge", "swordsdance", "substitute"],

landorus: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["calmmind", "earthpower", "focusblast", "protect", "psychic", "sludgebomb"],

keldeo: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["calmmind", "hydropump", "icywind", "protect", "scald", "secretsword", "aurasphere", "muddywater"],

talonflame: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["bravebird", "defog", "flareblitz", "overheat", "roost", "tailwind", "willowisp"],

aromatisse: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["healpulse", "moonblast", "protect", "thunderbolt", "trickroom", "wish"],

goodra: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["breakingswipe", "dracometeor", "fireblast", "muddywater", "powerwhip", "protect", "sludgebomb", "thunderbolt"],

xerneas: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["calmmind", "closecombat", "dazzlinggleam", "healpulse", "moonblast", "protect", "psyshock", "thunderbolt"],

incineroar: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["fakeout", "flareblitz", "knockoff", "partingshot", "protect", "snarl"],

primarina: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["energyball", "hydropump", "hypervoice" "icebeam", "moonblast", "protect", "psychic"],

lycanroc: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["accelerock", "closecombat", "crunch", "protect", "psychicfangs", "stoneedge", "rockslide", "swordsdance"],

zeraora: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["closecombat", "fakeout", "grassknot", "knockoff", "plasmafists", "playrough", "voltswitch"],

melmetal: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["bodypress", "doubleironbash", "highhorsepower", "icepunch", "thunderpunch", "thunderwave", "acidarmor"]

rillaboom: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["drumbeating", "fakeout", "highhorsepower", "superpower", "swordsdance", "uturn"],

cinderace: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["courtchange", "gunkshot", "highjumpkick", "ironhead", "protect", "pyroball", "uturn", "zenheadbutt"]

duraludon: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["bodypress", "dracometeor", "dragonpulse", "flashcannon", "protect", "snarl", "thunderbolt"],
 
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Hi, i would like to offer some critique of randubs. currently a good portion of the doubles community doesnt like randubs due to odd move combinations and that randubs feels alien to actual doubles.

My biggest qualm with randubs at the moment and my reason for making this post is that most mons that do not have a choice item, assault vest, or fake out should have protect. currently there is only a chance you will get protect, which is frustrating in game since most mons in any doubles format always run protect (except for the aforementioned exceptions) and not having it on your set when someone else does is awkward and leaves you with less options. It would be ideal for most mons to be forced to run protect unless they have fake out, a choice item, or av. On that note, this should also be true for every mon that gets fake out or follow me. I am unsure about this from a coding standpoint as I am not a programmer, but it cant hurt to mention.

After skimming through the document of randbats sets, here are a few suggestions for how i would improve some sets. I put additions in green and removals in red. You will notice that many of my suggestions remove certain defensive moves on offensive mons and weaker offensive moves that are more suited to singles. This is because, in doubles, defensive play can be utilized through the use of protect, fake out, and support partners. Furthermore, there are also certain moves that are generally ineffective in doubles, such as heal bell and wish. Also, not every mon needs to have setup and recovery. There are copious amounts of sets with sd/np/cm. Even with that said, these suggestions should be self-explanatory to anyone who plays doubles. Feel free to comment on my suggestions. i am not the gen 8 randubs master, this is simply my feedback as a doubles player.
venusaur: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["earthpower", "gigadrain", "leechseed", "protect", "sleeppowder", "sludgebomb", "energyball"],

blastoise: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["fakeout", "followme", "icywind", "lifedew", "muddywater", "protect", "scald"],

crobat: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["bravebird", "defog", "roost", "superfang", "tailwind", "taunt", "uturn"],

clefable: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["fireblast", "followme", "healpulse", "helpinghand", "moonblast", "protect", "thunderwave"],
(i would replace this with clefairy)

vileplume: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["aromatherapy", "gigadrain", "pollenpuff", "sleeppowder", "sludgebomb", "strengthsap", "energyball"],

bellossom: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["gigadrain", "moonblast", "quiverdance", "sleeppowder", "strengthsap"]

kingdra: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["dragonpulse", "dracometeor", "hurricane", "hydropump", "icebeam", "muddywater", "raindance"],

gengar: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["focusblast", "nastyplot", "protect", "shadowball", "sludgebomb", "thunderbolt", "trick", "willowisp"],

vaporeon: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["healbell", "icywind", "protect", "scald", "toxic", "wish"],

glaceon: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["blizzard", "freezedry", "helpinghand", "protect", "shadowball", "wish"]

sylveon: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["calmmind", "hypervoice", "mysticalfire", "protect", "psyshock", "wish"],

articuno: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["freezedry", "healbell", "hurricane", "icebeam", "roost", "toxic"],

mew: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["imprison", "protect", "psychic", "transform", "fakeout", "stealthrock", "pollenpuff", "tailwind"],

lanturn: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["healbell", "icebeam", "protect", "scald", "thunderbolt", "thunderwave", "voltswitch", "icywind"],

azumarill: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["aquajet", "icepunch", "knockoff", "liquidation", "playrough", "protect", "superpower", "bellydrum"],

togekiss: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["airslash", "followme", "heatwave", "protect", "roost", "tailwind", "thunderwave", "dazzling gleam"],

suicune: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["airslash", "calmmind", "icebeam", "rest", "scald", "sleeptalk", "tailwind", "icywind"],

celebi: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["calmmind", "earthpower", "gigadrain", "leafstorm", "protect", "psychic", "recover", "pollenpuff", "stealthrock"],

ludicolo: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["fakeout", "gigadrain", "hydropump", "icebeam", "raindance", "muddywater", "energyball"],

pelipper: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["hurricane", "hydropump", "protect", "roost", "tailwind", "wideguard", "uturn"],

ninjask: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["acrobatics", "defog", "leechlife", "protect", "swordsdance"],

sableye: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["disable", "encore", "fakeout", "foulplay", "knockoff", "recover", "willowisp", "taunt", "quash", "feint"],

torkoal: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["bodypress", "earthpower", "fireblast", "lavaplume", "protect", "solarbeam", "willowisp", "heatwave", "eruption"]

milotic: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["dragontail", "icebeam", "icywind", "protect", "recover", "scald", "muddywater"],

metagross: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["agility", "bulletpunch", "earthquake", "icepunch", "meteormash", "trick", "zenheadbutt"],

rayquaza: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["airslash", "dracometeor", "dragonclaw", "earthpower", "energyball", "extremespeed", "hydropump", "protect", "thunderbolt", "vcreate"],

jirachi: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["firepunch", "followme", "ironhead", "lifedew", "protect", "thunderwave", "stealthrock", "icywind"],

cherrim: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["aromatherapy", "energyball", "helpinghand", "pollenpuff", "protect"],

musharna: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["healingwish", "hypnosis", "moonblast", "protect", "psychic", "trickroom"],

excadrill: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["highhorsepower", "ironhead", "protect", "rapidspin", "rockslide", "swordsdance", "substitute"],

gothitelle: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["allyswitch", "fakeout", "healpulse", "helpinghand", "hypnosis", "psychic", "psyshock", "shadowball", "trickroom"],

bisharp: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["brickbreak", "ironhead", "knockoff", "protect", "suckerpunch", "swordsdance"],

reuniclus: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["energyball", "focusblast", "psychic", "psyshock", "recover", "shadowball", "trick", "trickroom"],

chandelure: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["calmmind", "energyball", "heatwave", "overheat", "protect", "shadowball", "trick"],

heatmor: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["firelash", "gigadrain", "incinerate", "protect", "rocktomb", "suckerpunch", "superpower", "willowisp", "heatwave"]

hydreigon: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["darkpulse", "dracometeor", "dragonpulse", "earthpower", "fireblast", "nastyplot", "protect", "tailwind"],

volcarona: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["bugbuzz", "gigadrain", "heatwave", "hurricane", "quiverdance", "roost"],

cobalion: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["ironhead", "protect", "sacredsword", "closecombat", "stoneedge", "swordsdance", "thunderwave"],

terrakion: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["closecombat", "ironhead", "protect", "rockslide", "stoneedge", "swordsdance", "substitute"],

landorus: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["calmmind", "earthpower", "focusblast", "protect", "psychic", "sludgebomb"],

keldeo: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["calmmind", "hydropump", "icywind", "protect", "scald", "secretsword", "aurasphere", "muddywater"],

talonflame: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["bravebird", "defog", "flareblitz", "overheat", "roost", "tailwind", "willowisp"],

aromatisse: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["healpulse", "moonblast", "protect", "thunderbolt", "trickroom", "wish"],

goodra: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["breakingswipe", "dracometeor", "fireblast", "muddywater", "powerwhip", "protect", "sludgebomb", "thunderbolt"],

xerneas: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["calmmind", "closecombat", "dazzlinggleam", "healpulse", "moonblast", "protect", "psyshock", "thunderbolt"],

incineroar: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["fakeout", "flareblitz", "knockoff", "partingshot", "protect", "snarl"],

primarina: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["energyball", "hydropump", "hypervoice" "icebeam", "moonblast", "protect", "psychic"],

lycanroc: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["accelerock", "closecombat", "crunch", "protect", "psychicfangs", "stoneedge", "rockslide", "swordsdance"],

zeraora: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["closecombat", "fakeout", "grassknot", "knockoff", "plasmafists", "playrough", "voltswitch"],

melmetal: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["bodypress", "doubleironbash", "highhorsepower", "icepunch", "thunderpunch", "thunderwave", "acidarmor"]

rillaboom: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["drumbeating", "fakeout", "highhorsepower", "superpower", "swordsdance", "uturn"],

cinderace: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["courtchange", "gunkshot", "highjumpkick", "ironhead", "protect", "pyroball", "uturn", "zenheadbutt"]

duraludon: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["bodypress", "dracometeor", "dragonpulse", "flashcannon", "protect", "snarl", "thunderbolt"],
Wow, appreciate the in depth review of the sets! Will definitely go over these with others working on the project, but reading it over here I'd love to either explain some of our decision making or grab your reasoning behind some of these choices. platinumCheesecake and I took the lead on these sets, and we're admittedly not terribly experienced doubles players, so some of your edits aren't entirely obvious to me. I'd love to get a bit of dialogue going on this to help us better understand your ideas (and ultimately the doubles meta), so these are some of my notes on your edit list. I'm including both questions about edits and explanations for some of our choices within the format.

- First, I wanna just quickly explain that part of the reason we're a little heavier-handed with set up than team building doubles formats is because mons in RandBats are bulkier. With every Pokemon having flat 84/84/84/84/84/84 EV spreads, offensive mons have a harder time picking up KOs and often need to set up to actually make a significant offensive impact. This added bulk is also a reason to include a little more recovery than you might see in the team building formats, although I see your point on a few of these recovery edits.

- Do Aromatherapy/Heal Bell have no place in the format? In my play I can't say I've found them either entirely necessary or entirely useless, so I'm not really sure what to make of a seemingly blanket removal.

- SpA lowering moves (Draco, Leaf Storm, etc.) as primary STAB attacks... I fully understand the importance of strong attacks, but (at least in Random Doubles) switching is difficult and they often leave your mon hapless on the field to be ignored.

- Trick is a weird one, it's currently one of our three (Trick, Uturn, Volt Switch) criteria for a Pokemon to roll a choice item. I think the only Pokemon you mention it on are Gengar, Reuniclus, and Metagross, all of which roll it not for the utility of trick, but in order to roll choice items. I'm open to hearing why those might make for bad Choice users, but this is just one of the realities we face with team generation and I thought should be mentioned.

- Mew is... a weird one. I like your additions, but the problem with adding moves to Mew as-is is that Imprisonform needs a pretty specific combination of moves to be at all effective, which is why it currently only rolls that one, pretty specific set. Just adding moves as suggested would result in some weird, jumbled sets. Given that Imprisonform has proved kind of situational, I'm still open to a complete overhaul of the set, but just adding moves to the current set is kind of a no-go.

- Is Belly Drum good?? I can't imagine halving your HP to be a good idea when you can be double targeted. I can see it working nicely in team building formats when you can reliably have something like follow me next to it, but in RandDubs I can't imagine ever clicking it.

- Dazzling Gleam Togekiss was hotly debated in set creation, but was most thought that it was too weak as a spread move. Would love any doubles insight you might be able to add to this one.

- We made a conscious choice to minimize Stealth Rocks setters in the format given the infrequency of switching in Random Doubles, and so far I haven't really seen that as a mistake. Some of these SR adds are on mons that probably have better utility elsewhere, but I'd love to hear a strong case for SR in doubles.

- We kind of deemed Torkoal too slow to effectively Eruption, and people are generally split on the Lava Plume thing...

- Worth mentioning that because Random Doubles is a dynamax format, key attack typings like flying are super important. Air Slash exists on Rayquaza mostly for speed boosts.

- I was generally opposed to the addition of sub to a lot of sets, given an opponent can often double target to break and KO in one turn. Willing to hear out a pro-sub case, but still not really in favor of adding it to sets without explanation.

- The format lacks a lot of hazard removal and webs can be incredibly suffocating. Rapid Spin is sprinkled in on mons that can afford to run it in part - to help with this and in part because the speed boost keeps it from being entirely useless in hazardless games.

- The Primarina change intrigues me. I assume you're implying Liquid Voice Hyper Voice, but I'm not sure the spread is really worth that loss in power. Dealing 67.5 base damage to two Pokemon often isn't better than 110 base damage to one, especially with the prevalence of water resists that the spread would just be wasted on. There's a case to be made for increased accuracy, but there's also a case to be made for keeping torrent for the occasional boost.



I really appreciate the input from a doubles player. I'll definitely be going over this edit list with the other RandDubs guys to see what we ultimately want to take from it, and would love some more feedback on some of the things I mentioned so we have more to base our choices on! If you ever have other RandDubs questions or just want to chat about these things, definitely feel free to shoot me a PM on PS!
 
Hi, i would like to offer some critique of randubs. currently a good portion of the doubles community doesnt like randubs due to odd move combinations and that randubs feels alien to actual doubles.

My biggest qualm with randubs at the moment and my reason for making this post is that most mons that do not have a choice item, assault vest, or fake out should have protect. currently there is only a chance you will get protect, which is frustrating in game since most mons in any doubles format always run protect (except for the aforementioned exceptions) and not having it on your set when someone else does is awkward and leaves you with less options. It would be ideal for most mons to be forced to run protect unless they have fake out, a choice item, or av. On that note, this should also be true for every mon that gets fake out or follow me. I am unsure about this from a coding standpoint as I am not a programmer, but it cant hurt to mention.

After skimming through the document of randbats sets, here are a few suggestions for how i would improve some sets. I put additions in green and removals in red. You will notice that many of my suggestions remove certain defensive moves on offensive mons and weaker offensive moves that are more suited to singles. This is because, in doubles, defensive play can be utilized through the use of protect, fake out, and support partners. Furthermore, there are also certain moves that are generally ineffective in doubles, such as heal bell and wish. Also, not every mon needs to have setup and recovery. There are copious amounts of sets with sd/np/cm. Even with that said, these suggestions should be self-explanatory to anyone who plays doubles. Feel free to comment on my suggestions. i am not the gen 8 randubs master, this is simply my feedback as a doubles player.
venusaur: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["earthpower", "gigadrain", "leechseed", "protect", "sleeppowder", "sludgebomb", "energyball"],

blastoise: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["fakeout", "followme", "icywind", "lifedew", "muddywater", "protect", "scald"],

crobat: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["bravebird", "defog", "roost", "superfang", "tailwind", "taunt", "uturn"],

clefable: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["fireblast", "followme", "healpulse", "helpinghand", "moonblast", "protect", "thunderwave"],
(i would replace this with clefairy)

vileplume: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["aromatherapy", "gigadrain", "pollenpuff", "sleeppowder", "sludgebomb", "strengthsap", "energyball"],

bellossom: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["gigadrain", "moonblast", "quiverdance", "sleeppowder", "strengthsap"]

kingdra: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["dragonpulse", "dracometeor", "hurricane", "hydropump", "icebeam", "muddywater", "raindance"],

gengar: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["focusblast", "nastyplot", "protect", "shadowball", "sludgebomb", "thunderbolt", "trick", "willowisp"],

vaporeon: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["healbell", "icywind", "protect", "scald", "toxic", "wish"],

glaceon: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["blizzard", "freezedry", "helpinghand", "protect", "shadowball", "wish"]

sylveon: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["calmmind", "hypervoice", "mysticalfire", "protect", "psyshock", "wish"],

articuno: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["freezedry", "healbell", "hurricane", "icebeam", "roost", "toxic"],

mew: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["imprison", "protect", "psychic", "transform", "fakeout", "stealthrock", "pollenpuff", "tailwind"],

lanturn: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["healbell", "icebeam", "protect", "scald", "thunderbolt", "thunderwave", "voltswitch", "icywind"],

azumarill: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["aquajet", "icepunch", "knockoff", "liquidation", "playrough", "protect", "superpower", "bellydrum"],

togekiss: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["airslash", "followme", "heatwave", "protect", "roost", "tailwind", "thunderwave", "dazzling gleam"],

suicune: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["airslash", "calmmind", "icebeam", "rest", "scald", "sleeptalk", "tailwind", "icywind"],

celebi: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["calmmind", "earthpower", "gigadrain", "leafstorm", "protect", "psychic", "recover", "pollenpuff", "stealthrock"],

ludicolo: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["fakeout", "gigadrain", "hydropump", "icebeam", "raindance", "muddywater", "energyball"],

pelipper: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["hurricane", "hydropump", "protect", "roost", "tailwind", "wideguard", "uturn"],

ninjask: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["acrobatics", "defog", "leechlife", "protect", "swordsdance"],

sableye: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["disable", "encore", "fakeout", "foulplay", "knockoff", "recover", "willowisp", "taunt", "quash", "feint"],

torkoal: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["bodypress", "earthpower", "fireblast", "lavaplume", "protect", "solarbeam", "willowisp", "heatwave", "eruption"]

milotic: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["dragontail", "icebeam", "icywind", "protect", "recover", "scald", "muddywater"],

metagross: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["agility", "bulletpunch", "earthquake", "icepunch", "meteormash", "trick", "zenheadbutt"],

rayquaza: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["airslash", "dracometeor", "dragonclaw", "earthpower", "energyball", "extremespeed", "hydropump", "protect", "thunderbolt", "vcreate"],

jirachi: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["firepunch", "followme", "ironhead", "lifedew", "protect", "thunderwave", "stealthrock", "icywind"],

cherrim: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["aromatherapy", "energyball", "helpinghand", "pollenpuff", "protect"],

musharna: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["healingwish", "hypnosis", "moonblast", "protect", "psychic", "trickroom"],

excadrill: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["highhorsepower", "ironhead", "protect", "rapidspin", "rockslide", "swordsdance", "substitute"],

gothitelle: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["allyswitch", "fakeout", "healpulse", "helpinghand", "hypnosis", "psychic", "psyshock", "shadowball", "trickroom"],

bisharp: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["brickbreak", "ironhead", "knockoff", "protect", "suckerpunch", "swordsdance"],

reuniclus: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["energyball", "focusblast", "psychic", "psyshock", "recover", "shadowball", "trick", "trickroom"],

chandelure: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["calmmind", "energyball", "heatwave", "overheat", "protect", "shadowball", "trick"],

heatmor: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["firelash", "gigadrain", "incinerate", "protect", "rocktomb", "suckerpunch", "superpower", "willowisp", "heatwave"]

hydreigon: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["darkpulse", "dracometeor", "dragonpulse", "earthpower", "fireblast", "nastyplot", "protect", "tailwind"],

volcarona: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["bugbuzz", "gigadrain", "heatwave", "hurricane", "quiverdance", "roost"],

cobalion: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["ironhead", "protect", "sacredsword", "closecombat", "stoneedge", "swordsdance", "thunderwave"],

terrakion: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["closecombat", "ironhead", "protect", "rockslide", "stoneedge", "swordsdance", "substitute"],

landorus: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["calmmind", "earthpower", "focusblast", "protect", "psychic", "sludgebomb"],

keldeo: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["calmmind", "hydropump", "icywind", "protect", "scald", "secretsword", "aurasphere", "muddywater"],

talonflame: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["bravebird", "defog", "flareblitz", "overheat", "roost", "tailwind", "willowisp"],

aromatisse: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["healpulse", "moonblast", "protect", "thunderbolt", "trickroom", "wish"],

goodra: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["breakingswipe", "dracometeor", "fireblast", "muddywater", "powerwhip", "protect", "sludgebomb", "thunderbolt"],

xerneas: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["calmmind", "closecombat", "dazzlinggleam", "healpulse", "moonblast", "protect", "psyshock", "thunderbolt"],

incineroar: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["fakeout", "flareblitz", "knockoff", "partingshot", "protect", "snarl"],

primarina: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["energyball", "hydropump", "hypervoice" "icebeam", "moonblast", "protect", "psychic"],

lycanroc: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["accelerock", "closecombat", "crunch", "protect", "psychicfangs", "stoneedge", "rockslide", "swordsdance"],

zeraora: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["closecombat", "fakeout", "grassknot", "knockoff", "plasmafists", "playrough", "voltswitch"],

melmetal: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["bodypress", "doubleironbash", "highhorsepower", "icepunch", "thunderpunch", "thunderwave", "acidarmor"]

rillaboom: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["drumbeating", "fakeout", "highhorsepower", "superpower", "swordsdance", "uturn"],

cinderace: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["courtchange", "gunkshot", "highjumpkick", "ironhead", "protect", "pyroball", "uturn", "zenheadbutt"]

duraludon: {
randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["bodypress", "dracometeor", "dragonpulse", "flashcannon", "protect", "snarl", "thunderbolt"],
Lot of stuff here to go through. not a racist and I will be going over these in the following days. A lot of what you say here is good info; rest assured we'll be putting some of this in place. I'm going to mirror his thoughts on a couple of points, but heres what i think, generally speaking, about your proposals.

-we will probably not be adding stealth rock
-we dont want mono-dragon draco meteor
-i agree recovery needs to be curtailed on less-than-bulky mons (crobat, talon, pelipper)
-would be sick to add clefairy in
-we're likely keeping a few "stinkers" just for the sake of having moves in the metagame. stuff like defog ninjask, aromatherapy eldegoss (not like -these mons gets much else, and we want there to be SOME manner of hazard/status control in the meta)
-ive been arguing for eruption tork since the beginning :c
-mew has been a point of contention too; lot of us dont know what to do with it so we made it imprison fixed. could see it turning into an sd mon.
-some mons, like rayquaza and cinderace benefit from having just a shit ton of moves at their disposal. it forces the opponent to stay on their toes because these mons are just so threatening
-your sableye suggestions are sick
 

Idyll

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Hi! I'm an experienced DOU player (SPL-level and ex-Tier Leader) + play random battle formats a bunch, and I was actually the one that sparked the discussions on randubs today in the DOU Discord. We had some discussions about the meta today, mostly focusing on what we found to be frustrating with it right now. A common sentiment was that the sets looked like they weren't exactly geared for Doubles play. Granted, these are just for Randubs so it's mostly for funsies, but playing with it a bit it honestly feels frustrating as I often felt like I'm playing with sets that are deliberately shooting themselves in the foot (most frustrating personal example today was Protect / Wish / Snarl / Yawn Umbreon...).

Though I'm not xzern, I can answer your questions for you not a racist

Do Aromatherapy/Heal Bell have no place in the format? In my play I can't say I've found them either entirely necessary or entirely useless, so I'm not really sure what to make of a seemingly blanket removal
Yes, they indeed have no place in the format. The pace of play is too fast is too fast to waste a turn to even bother, especially with Dynamax available. DOU teams never feature it, and while this is naturally slower-paced, spending a turn (AND moveslot) helping yourself instead of doing something that deliberately pressures an opponent is not that good. Unlike recovery moves or screens, status is a much rarer scenario to bother with, and often it's just better to just suck it up.
- SpA lowering moves (Draco, Leaf Storm, etc.) as primary STAB attacks... I fully understand the importance of strong attacks, but (at least in Random Doubles) switching is difficult and they often leave your mon hapless on the field to be ignored.
Being better at reaching KO ranges with higher powered moves is preferred in Doubles, because by KOing aa Pokemon you can also take out one action for your opponent at the same time; even outside of this, the higher power still comes in handy for making the opposing Pokemon do less, crucial when the span of games is quite narrow. When getting KOs, the opponent ideally switches in to a Pokemon with a favorable matchup, meaning you'll have to switch out anyway.

The real problem comes when a Pokemon only has their stat-lowering move as their only STAB. Often Pokemon that run them effectively have another move (usually STAB, some mons run these power moves effectively because they're actually supporters and chip is nice) to fall back on. Something that does tip the scales is how these high-powered moves come off better with Dynamax; while not as powerful here, the extra juice is still really nice. Definitely something to think about.

Trick is a weird one, it's currently one of our three (Trick, Uturn, Volt Switch) criteria for a Pokemon to roll a choice item. I think the only Pokemon you mention it on are Gengar, Reuniclus, and Metagross, all of which roll it not for the utility of trick, but in order to roll choice items. I'm open to hearing why those might make for bad Choice users, but this is just one of the realities we face with team generation and I thought should be mentioned.
Honestly, Metagross is not a bad Choice user at all, it has bulk, decent Speed, decent coverage, and priority access... but Gengar and Reuniclus come off differently. Gengar, as a Pokemon, really appreciates possible Protect access and the option to change moves; its bulk doesn't give it strong enough leverage. Reuniclus, meanwhile, doesn't have the Speed to break in a Doubles environment; usually these kind of slow Pokemon offer some kind of encompassing utility (Trick Room comes to mind immediately), because being a slow Pokemon with the sole purpose of attacking is a shitty niche. These kind of Pokemon are easily checked.
Mew is... a weird one. I like your additions, but the problem with adding moves to Mew as-is is that Imprisonform needs a pretty specific combination of moves to be at all effective, which is why it currently only rolls that one, pretty specific set. Just adding moves as suggested would result in some weird, jumbled sets. Given that Imprisonform has proved kind of situational, I'm still open to a complete overhaul of the set, but just adding moves to the current set is kind of a no-go.
Honestly, unless we have the technology to have JailMew and Utility as separate rolls, I don't think JailMew is worth keeping around. It's honestly really gimmicky and, in actual DOU play, is also run to deliberately shut down opposing moves outside of Transform (TR comes to mind). Utility Mew is the more consistent set in DOU play rn; access to relatively fast Tailwind is amazing, as is the strong utility of Pollen Puff (chip OR healing), Fake Out, Taunt, and its slew of other moves. If you want to promote skilled fun and varied gameplay, I think foregoing JailMew (more of a teambuilding set) over a more versatile Utility Mew is worth it. All you have to do is remove Imprison, really, as Transforming into stuff is still useful especially in a Dynamax meta!
Is Belly Drum good?? I can't imagine halving your HP to be a good idea when you can be double targeted. I can see it working nicely in team building formats when you can reliably have something like follow me next to it, but in RandDubs I can't imagine ever clicking it.
No. If you want to keep it on anything, keep it on Linoone, but simply because that's its sole decent niche lol. On everything else off the top of my head it's just bad for the reasons you're thinking of.
Dazzling Gleam Togekiss was hotly debated in set creation, but was most thought that it was too weak as a spread move. Would love any doubles insight you might be able to add to this one.
It's fine! It's honestly quite a nice move, really; it's STAB, and it's a cool move to have in Dynamax. It actually hits harder than Heat Wave, which you guys have there ?_? when you guys said Dazzle's "too weak". Only difference is coverage really, but even then Dazzle + Heat Wave if not just straight up 3 Atks + FM isn't unheard of, particularly with CritKiss (Scope Lens + Super Luck).
We kind of deemed Torkoal too slow to effectively Eruption, and people are generally split on the Lava Plume thing...
Lava Plume is shit because it hits your teammate, obviously not a good thing; spread moves that hit partners are generally bad except for EQ, and that's only because it's not that difficult to have immunities for it. Just put in Heat Wave, it's stronger too. Eruption is not a randdubs move because Trick Room teams can't be deliberately made, so you're right there.
We made a conscious choice to minimize Stealth Rocks setters in the format given the infrequency of switching in Random Doubles, and so far I haven't really seen that as a mistake. Some of these SR adds are on mons that probably have better utility elsewhere, but I'd love to hear a strong case for SR in doubles.
Stealth Rock in DOU play is only fit in very specific, bulky Pokemon that can actually afford the moveslots i.e. the ones that aren't meant to be primary hitters e.g. Torkoal, Mew (which runs TSpikes as well lol). I think it's a perfectly viable option on select mons in randubs, on Uxie, Bronzong, Jirachi and the like... while there's significantly less switching, it's still enough switching to go around and that chip does come in nice.
Worth mentioning that because Random Doubles is a dynamax format, key attack typings like flying are super important. Air Slash exists on Rayquaza mostly for speed boosts.
Honestly this is fine.
I was generally opposed to the addition of sub to a lot of sets, given an opponent can often double target to break and KO in one turn. Willing to hear out a pro-sub case, but still not really in favor of adding it to sets without explanation.
Substitute is good for deliberately punishing Protects and switches, and it's also dangerous for situations when a partner can get a KO (or two!) and a Pokemon can set up a Sub effectively unopposed. While not a move that should be common (only really on ones that have strong coverage with STABs alone), it's a very effective midground for a metagame that really values positioning; being unable to KO something immediately can make threats of Pokemon that otherwise wouldn't be. They have a nice dynamic with Dynamax too; it can be useful for stalling them out, while a Dynamaxed Pokemon cannot stay behind a Sub so it can't capitalize on one.
The format lacks a lot of hazard removal and webs can be incredibly suffocating. Rapid Spin is sprinkled in on mons that can afford to run it in part - to help with this and in part because the speed boost keeps it from being entirely useless in hazardless games.
I think there are ways to win games even with Webs up for sure; personally, as someone who also plays randbats singles, an opponent getting Webs is just getting ranbats'd. :blobshrug: Meanwhile, hazard removal isn't that good because, like Cleric moves, they're not always useful and they don't do anything to pressure an opponent. +1 Speed is nice, but going for purely that is not a winning play most of the time. With Dynamax, teams can get away with just outpositioning, outbulking, and outvaluing opposing teams with a little bit of foresight.
The Primarina change intrigues me. I assume you're implying Liquid Voice Hyper Voice, but I'm not sure the spread is really worth that loss in power. Dealing 67.5 base damage to two Pokemon often isn't better than 110 base damage to one, especially with the prevalence of water resists that the spread would just be wasted on. There's a case to be made for increased accuracy, but there's also a case to be made for keeping torrent for the occasional boost.
Personally, I disagree with taking out Hydro Pump, BUT Liquid Voice Hyper Voice is fine. I don't see a prospective set of Hydro / Moonblast / HV / xas bad by any means, as well as HV / Moonblast / x / x. Hydro Pump should still be there as a power option, but HV is viable and does add versatility to Primarina's game.

One more thing--personally, I find the abundance of resist berries really frustrating. I personally don't find the idea of having items that are only useful in specific cases to be fun gameplay; they rarely proc, but at the same time running into one just feels bad. It's an inconsistent item that, when they work, swing too much of the game. I'd honestly prefer it if you guys played more with other items; I wouldn't even blink if you guys put Sitrus on most mons, if I'm going to be real. For a serious suggestion, something to consider would be putting in the pinch 33% recovery berries on "bulkier" Pokemon, as well as putting more AV on Protectless attackers.

Anyways, that's all from me! I'm always willing to provide a Doubles perspective whenever needed, am open to questions whenever. Good luck with the meta!
 

A Cake Wearing A Hat

moist and crusty
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Forcing protect on all Pokemon that get it is not feasible. This would probably result in several bad sets with only one STAB move and would make certain moves outright not exist.

Randbats is procedurally generated and Leaf Storm, etc. Are highly likely to be the only STAB move on mono-typed Pokemon if they are in the movepools. This is bad.

I am comfortable with removing aromatherapy/heal bell entirely. We WI not be removing hazard removal from the badmons that get it. Webs are very common and we want to minimize getting "randbats'd" by webs.

If Togekiss gets Dazzling Gleam, it would always get Dazzling Gleam on every set. This would result in Togekiss having a FAR higher chance of being hardwalled by steels, because coverage moves are not guaranteed.

Removing clefable is not an option.
 

breh

強いだね
if you're concerned about the way sets are generated, it's probably a good idea to change the way sets are generated rather than avoid putting viable moves on pokemon that would be better with them

~~

setup move + protect + 2 attacks still gives offensive pokemon sitrus berry instead of life orb. most recently, excadrill. this one is a real vibe killer

- randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["fakeout", "followme", "grassknot", "nuzzle", "protect", "thunderbolt"],
+ randomDoubleBattleMoves: ["encore", "fakeout", "grassknot", "helpinghand", "nuzzle", "protect", "thunderbolt", "voltswitch"],
why remove follow me

electivire still wants follow me or at least protect, LO 4 attacks still sucks

kingdra still wants protect. getting LO 4 attacks kingdra is almost as bad as getting some of the legendaries

free hyper beam sylveon (obviously reject / be rejected with cm or protect)

sylvally ghost is still as bad as it was before

durant still gets occa (I think this was fixed by the time of me posting this)

bisharp still gets chople (see above)

hex drifblim does not work (and also appears with shadow ball...). wow and twave should be restricted from appearing on the same set together, and twave especially is less than ideal period when it already has tailwind. acrobatics (for max airstream / sitrus), protect, haze, and strength sap are meme-ier options to consider at the risk of bloating its movepool undesirably.

I'm not sure there is a valid reason not to have cherrim be only the sunny day based sets, as its whole gimmick is tied to doubles much more than it is to singles. x2.25 moves from physical attackers (flower gift + hh) are strong. ideally something like sunny day / helping hand / solar blade / [pollen puff or protect] while forcing sunny day

air balloon salazzle is kind of shit because it simply does not value this item (if this was fixed with the berries, mb). this pokemon probably wants heat wave

rayquaza has a bloated movepool. protect / dm / vc / espeed is the platonic ideal and the other moves it gets only make this pokemon worse. dragon claw / air slash are weak as not max moves due to their low BP and rayquaza's low level means it relies a lot on high bp moves to actually do damage. hydro pump is inaccurate and questionably helpful; earth power is just like... why

if whiscash stays the dd version moving forward (and does not get, for example, icy wind, which is literally the only support move it has in its movepool), it probably appreciates stomping tantrum more than eq, especially if all team members are grounded. whiscash can actually accumulate dds decently well, but making use of earthquake can be a struggle. I'm too lazy to check if all team member species are rolled before their moves, but if they are, it would be nice to convert one into the other. LO no dd whiscash is actually garbage and the attack baseline for lo should probably be set higher if there is one, idr

quad rock weak pokemon get heavy duty boots and it is almost always bad.

given rands, brave bird is probably better on moltres than air slash. it is a weaker max move, but beyond that probably better.

why is type null even here? it has a debilitating level and everything about it is bad.

LO 4 attacks (where fake out is not one) on almost everything it touches is bad. this is a set that literally never works. snarl should reject LO

magnezone is cool for ally switch, but balloon sucks and it wants electroweb probably.

thundurus can use sub. priority twave is extremely, extremely valuable for it as well, to the point that I would say that any pokemon that has thunder wave and prankster should reject until it gets it.

grapploct should always get octolock, if at least to make it unique. it synergizes well with protect and makes opposing protect more costly. without this it is a bad version of multiple other fighting types and extremely depressing to get.

dubwool borders on garbage; baton pass (either as it currently is or with cotton guard / bpress) + twave are potential options. zhb and wild charge kind of suck and never do what you want them to.

aurorus without hyper voice sucks. if there are no pokemon adversely affected by it on the team (ex. shedinja) and there are blizzard users on the team, it would be cool to have snow warning blizzard paste over its ability / hyper voice instead, ala sylveon in singles getting cm sets pasted over some of its mediocre ones.

lycanroc still wants rock slide

flygon has 1 million moves and none of them except for tailwind are actually helpful. it can probably live with literally just dc / eq / protect / tailwind

why is doublade here? just to suffer?

why does wailord have hyper voice? just give it selfdestruct. why would you ever want to lock yourself into hyper voice? unironically even blizzard is better than hyper voice

I think icy wind fits really well onto arctozolt; probably reject / be rejected with blizzard though.

pressure on weavile is better than pickpocket if it does not have a consumable item. I don't think it needs protect or especially swords dance and ice shard is also somewhat iffy given how fast weavile is and the lack of +1 ice-weak Pokemon to revenge kill. can run feint provided its other moves are fake out / STABs.

reiterating that leech seed on eldegoss is bad and it has better things to do with its slots (sleep powder, pollen puff)

perrserker without fake out is objectively bad. its LO fake out also kind of sucks. in perrserker's case, it's not strong enough to hit the bulk requirements for AV. I think if the pokemon is slow and has 4 attacks Fake Out, it's probably fair to give it assault vest at that point

3 attacks cm raikou borders on bad. just protect 3 attacks is fine.

LO dracovish kind of sucks.
 
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quad rock weak pokemon get heavy duty boots and it is almost always bad.
I was just about to make a similar suggestion to this. I'd like to force Charti Berry on Ho-oh/Moltres because getting OHKOd by rocks even when you're Dynamax sucks. I'd say HDB is still legit on Volcarona since it suffers from the jeopardy of webs as well.

grapploct should always get octolock, if at least to make it unique. it synergizes well with protect and makes opposing protect more costly. without this it is a bad version of multiple other fighting types and extremely depressing to get.
I'm on board with this too. Octolock/Protect works fantastically well in dubs. I don't generally like mons being limited to 4 moves, so maybe the other two moves can be pulled from a small pool, but Octo + Protect should be a given.

pressure on weavile is better than pickpocket if it does not have a consumable item. I don't think it needs protect or especially swords dance and ice shard is also somewhat iffy given how fast weavile is and the lack of +1 ice-weak Pokemon to revenge kill. can run feint provided its other moves are fake out / STABs.
No matter if it's doubles or singles, Weavile is made worse by running weak priority moves. Fake Out is fine since it is far more useful in doubles. I would however advocate to keep Protect, since Weavile is able to draw attacks due it threatening opponents with its high attack and great speed.
 

breh

強いだね
slow pokemon with 4 attacks choice items (perrserker again) are bad. these items probably need a speed floor and pokemon that are this slow probably should not spawn with 4 attacks, assuming none of those attacks have priority.

on fake out:

Pokemon that always want it with set item or any item: [c]

Pikachu
Mr. Mime G
Toxicroak
Rillaboom

Pokemon that always want it with a defensive item, like a berry or Assault Vest:

Blastoise
Raichu
Persian [\b]
Persian-A
Perrserker
Hitmontop
Mr. Rime
Ludicolo (rain dance is kind of ass)
Liepard [a]
Scrafty
Gothitelle
Incineroar
Togedemaru
Morpeko

Pokemon that always want it with an offensive item, like Life Orb:

Hitmonlee
Weavile
Salazzle

Pokemon that don't always want it and have set item or any item: [c]

Zeraora
Meowstic-M

Pokemon that don't always want it, but want it with a defensive item, like a berry or Assault Vest:

Mr. Mime
Mew
Delibird
Sableye
Grimmsnarl

Pokemon that don't always want it, but want it with an offensive item, like Life Orb:

Shiftry [d]
Meowstic-F

short summary:

not force conditions:

1) if it has tailwind in its movepool, not always wanted
2) if it has hustle as an ability in its pool, not always wanted
3) if it has reflect + light screen in its movepool, not always wanted
4) if it has prankster, not always wanted [a]
5) if it has competitive in its abilitypool and not shadow tag, not always wanted
6) if it is naturally extremely fast, ex. 140+, not always wanted

reject conditions:

reject conditions for fake out

if has reflect or light screen and max [atk, SpA] >= 90, reject

reject conditions for light screen / reflect

if has fake out and max [atk, SpA] >= 90, reject

items:

Code:
if (has fake out)
     if ((intimidate or (max atk, spa) < 100 or spe < 80) or has snarl or has volt switch) & !competitive)
          if (4 attacks)
          av
          else [berry]
     else LO
~~

a) sableye doesn't want fake out always but liepard is probably better off with it most of the time... maybe debatable tho as liepard also starts to run out of slots fast

b) does persian want LO idk lol

c) what conditions give these pokemon gets varying items? zeraora can avoid LO with snarl or volt switch (desirable), but rillaboom / toxicroak can probably enjoy all 3 items.

d) idk what condition would help give shiftry LO cause av or sitrus shiftry is ass
 
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breh

強いだね
I am not hardcoding forced fake out under a 6-point set of conditions
why

there's so much other hard coded shit in rands; why not fake out, especially considering how influential moves like it can be? I wouldn't even call this all that hard coded to begin with
 

A Cake Wearing A Hat

moist and crusty
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The move forcing code is especially cluttered as it stands and the last thing it needs is a 6-point logic set pertaining to literally only one move in only doubles and not singles, which is unprecedented in many ways. It is not happening.
 

breh

強いだね
doubles requires more effort to make sets that aren't garbage, though, or else you'll end up with a million samey sets that reek of singles-itis. protect, follow me (/ rage powder), and other moves that have unique support purposes in doubles probably deserve a similar level of care, too.
 
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breh

強いだね
eweb LO is common and it kind of sucks (ex rotom heat, heliolisk). I think the same is true of icy wind as well.

eweb can be the only STAB on offensive pokemon which kind of sucks (heliolisk); probably worth adding to noSTAB or whatever that tag is

virizon has helping hand and can probably make good use of its since its level is low and its potency is similarly low

technician on persian-a is awful; yes it gets tech boosted moves but you're not looking for power out of snarl or icy wind

overcoat should be prioritized in most cases. mostly looking at escavalier, but beyond that I think everything that isn't kommo-o and cloyster doesn't mind losing its ability for overcoat
 

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