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Format Discussion Pokemon Sword & Shield Random Battle Sets
- Thread starter Annika
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we tested it out for a sample, here's 5 games if you're wondering what this would be like (i won all of them by the way)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8hackmonscup-1641978807-7ljteorby3exnhuq1qkdqsuh931gzuvpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8hackmonscup-1641983106-gpm7t9xvda1gmjeomcgdgghkocc8w28pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8hackmonscup-1641986663-qecboe3h95r844zakt4ox3947vtkoz3pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8hackmonscup-1641991269-sn66tb65avmxsjf7lk8c51klybb9rolpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8hackmonscup-1641999219-cszuaq9rbd98vjknjbun8kvs454vlgmpw
I think magearna should be lower level combined with it good typing and calm mind and agility and dmax has won/lost me all the matches that it appear well I think it should also be lowered with more ubers
You and Wigg are the only people I've seen that are adamant about this. It needs more than that to make a new format. Plus, when it comes to new HC format contenders, I'd rather have hackmons cup ultimate instead of this as a challengeable format come gen 9.
No. Levels are balanced already through objective methods (pokemon win rates), and we are not going to change levels due to subjective opinion when the statistics do not back up those opinions. If Magearna needs to be nerfed, it will be nerfed. If it is not nerfed, it is because it is not overwhelming.
Because most of the public doesnt know about it. And ultimate isnt bad, i just think 6 moves is more balanced than current format and most likely more balanced than ultimate.
It makes it more unlikely to roll sets with no function, allows for more coverage. It brings out the entire purpose of HC where sets can be anything. Currently it is one team getting a good mosnter that controls the game. With 6 moves both teams have more likelihood of that privilege.
Lastly HC and challenge cup are currently too similar - with challenge cup being a more balanced format in the competitive scene. This gives HC the edge.
Regardless of it being me and wiggly i think this format should at least be tested with the general public regardless of whatever u rather or I rather have.
We'll occasionally do tours about it like we've been doing w HCU. That's about the best yall can hope for with this level of current popularity.
Fair. We will reconvene based on the trend of popularity.
Crunchman
Banned deucer.
Suggestion:
Add Flame Body as an ability for Talonflame. My preference is for Flame Body to be a 50% chance to get and 50% chance for Gale Wings, but it would be fine if Flame Body was relegated to the U-turn/Roost/Brave Bird/Flare Blitz set (and the Swords Dance set remain Gale Wings).
I'm sure giving Talon only Gale Wings was a deliberate decision and Flame Body was not overlooked. However, I feel that Flame Body would be a strong addition to Talonflame's set. The reasons are two-fold:
1. Gale Wings isn't actually that strong, IMO. Brave Bird resets the Gale Wings, and Talon doesn't have that many opportunities to Roost back up to 100%. This means that if the target switches out as you Brave Bird, you don't have the priority for it anymore; this is a pretty common scenario, and Gale Wings ends up doing not much. Yes, Dynamax Airstream can get the Gale Wings boost multiple times. However, Talonflame also happens to be pretty naturally fast, further diminishing the use case; in addition Dynamax is already boosting Talon's bulkiness, meaning going first while always great is a bit less consequential in games.
2. Flame Body would actually be very impactful. Talonflame has pretty good typing to be a defensive answer to random physical mons in a pinch. The problem is that due to its poor stats, its usually still taking 40-60% damage. You can roost this up, but you don't make progress and risk crits/secondary effects. However, Talonflame with Flame Body would actually threaten burns/burn opposing Pokemon. I probably don't need to explain why this is good, but it gives it the chance to wall and abuse physical threats completely. It just adds another dimension to the set defensively that I think is more worthwhile than Gale Wings, at least in some cases.
- But Flame Body is RNG! Isn't that worse for the metagame?
It may add another element of chance, but having that chance to make progress and/or cripple a progress-making foe makes the set better. Additionally, the biggest use case of Flame Body is when Talonflame is barely defensively walling a Pokemon; usually the foe will attack Talonflame a couple of times, so its really just a matter of time before the foe is burned and Talonflame can capitalize.
I don't know how feasible this is coding wise, but I know some other Pokemon have abilities attached to specific moves (or lack thereof). I hope you take this into consideration, as I see this as an improvement to the set.
I don't have replays on hand, but I have made this observation a large number of times in the countless mostly ladder and some tour games I have played. If I come across some that I believe illustrates this point vividly I will attach them, for now I hope my words will be enough to sway you :).
Add Flame Body as an ability for Talonflame. My preference is for Flame Body to be a 50% chance to get and 50% chance for Gale Wings, but it would be fine if Flame Body was relegated to the U-turn/Roost/Brave Bird/Flare Blitz set (and the Swords Dance set remain Gale Wings).
I'm sure giving Talon only Gale Wings was a deliberate decision and Flame Body was not overlooked. However, I feel that Flame Body would be a strong addition to Talonflame's set. The reasons are two-fold:
1. Gale Wings isn't actually that strong, IMO. Brave Bird resets the Gale Wings, and Talon doesn't have that many opportunities to Roost back up to 100%. This means that if the target switches out as you Brave Bird, you don't have the priority for it anymore; this is a pretty common scenario, and Gale Wings ends up doing not much. Yes, Dynamax Airstream can get the Gale Wings boost multiple times. However, Talonflame also happens to be pretty naturally fast, further diminishing the use case; in addition Dynamax is already boosting Talon's bulkiness, meaning going first while always great is a bit less consequential in games.
2. Flame Body would actually be very impactful. Talonflame has pretty good typing to be a defensive answer to random physical mons in a pinch. The problem is that due to its poor stats, its usually still taking 40-60% damage. You can roost this up, but you don't make progress and risk crits/secondary effects. However, Talonflame with Flame Body would actually threaten burns/burn opposing Pokemon. I probably don't need to explain why this is good, but it gives it the chance to wall and abuse physical threats completely. It just adds another dimension to the set defensively that I think is more worthwhile than Gale Wings, at least in some cases.
- But Flame Body is RNG! Isn't that worse for the metagame?
It may add another element of chance, but having that chance to make progress and/or cripple a progress-making foe makes the set better. Additionally, the biggest use case of Flame Body is when Talonflame is barely defensively walling a Pokemon; usually the foe will attack Talonflame a couple of times, so its really just a matter of time before the foe is burned and Talonflame can capitalize.
I don't know how feasible this is coding wise, but I know some other Pokemon have abilities attached to specific moves (or lack thereof). I hope you take this into consideration, as I see this as an improvement to the set.
I don't have replays on hand, but I have made this observation a large number of times in the countless mostly ladder and some tour games I have played. If I come across some that I believe illustrates this point vividly I will attach them, for now I hope my words will be enough to sway you :).
This isn't really how abilities work, we'd have to reduce the ability rating of Gale Wings. I approve of this, though. We'll see what we can do.
Crunchman
Banned deucer.
Would like a change on Glaceon's set. It should always get Wish + Tect, the set without Protect is very unideal. It's effectively taking 2 hits for each Wish, and while Glaceon is tanky its often taking ~30-40% per hit at least; Wish without Tect is just not sustainable. Also, it can't Protect on a threat switching in to force it out, meaning it doesn't get to heal. I think Shadow Ball is the best move to drop here; while it's nice to have coverage, Shadow Ball often doesnt provide that much upside over Freeze-Dry, save for particularly niche situations. This change should make Glaceon a lot more reliable as a defensive mon as well as significantly increase its longevity as an offensive weapon capable of claiming kills whenever it switches in.
It should be noted that this set is relatively rare based on the /setodds Piapia so kindly provided a few weeks ago, but even so I think it's unwieldy enough and Shadow Ball provides little enough benefit that it's worth making this change.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8randombattle-1664689083-9wyc1mu4zlqxj9zuk8d2z22po1svvlxpw
Just going to add a quick aside for another set that I don't particularly love that comes up quite a bit:
Weavile with Swords Dance/Knock Off/Low Kick/Ice Shard
Really all I can say is Weavile wants Triple Axel. Could we maybe force Knock Off/Triple Axel by making Ice Shard not count for the required STAB, so that it effectively becomes a Swords Dance, Knock Off, Triple Axel, and Low Kick/Ice Shard in the last slot on the SD set?
It should be noted that this set is relatively rare based on the /setodds Piapia so kindly provided a few weeks ago, but even so I think it's unwieldy enough and Shadow Ball provides little enough benefit that it's worth making this change.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8randombattle-1664689083-9wyc1mu4zlqxj9zuk8d2z22po1svvlxpw
Just going to add a quick aside for another set that I don't particularly love that comes up quite a bit:
Weavile with Swords Dance/Knock Off/Low Kick/Ice Shard
Really all I can say is Weavile wants Triple Axel. Could we maybe force Knock Off/Triple Axel by making Ice Shard not count for the required STAB, so that it effectively becomes a Swords Dance, Knock Off, Triple Axel, and Low Kick/Ice Shard in the last slot on the SD set?
-Can't really prevent iceless Weavile without removing Choice Band from existence, "last slot slash" isn't a concept in randbats that is executable in most cases
-Forcing wishtect to be together at all times isn't possible in randbats, as much as we've tried to do so.
Can we please remove Dugtrio from ever being a lead
Pressing Volt Switch on my pikachu is a conscious decision that can come with the consequence of the opponent switching in a ground type, which may potentially be dugtrio - if it happens, so be it.
Starting with Pikachu vs Dugtrio leads is nothing but straight up bullshit and having to play a 5v6 (ok cool the dugtrio is locked onto EQ I guess)
Pressing Volt Switch on my pikachu is a conscious decision that can come with the consequence of the opponent switching in a ground type, which may potentially be dugtrio - if it happens, so be it.
Starting with Pikachu vs Dugtrio leads is nothing but straight up bullshit and having to play a 5v6 (ok cool the dugtrio is locked onto EQ I guess)
Low probability, and as you imply, even if it gets an easy KO, it's locked in a move and this generally can easily be abused. It's not always a risk free KO for your opponent.
TailGlowVM
Now 100% more demonic
Currently, Poliwrath only has four moves to choose from, making it incredibly predictable, despite having a reasonably good movepool. Therefore, could it be considered to add Ice Punch to its set? This is its most viable other coverage move, and would allow it to potentially hit checks like Dragonite, Grass/Poisons, Salamence and Eternatus for much more damage.
Isn't lightning rod rhydon inferior to reckless/rockhead rhydon? Trace mons can benefit from lightning rod (essentially granting them an immunity) but don't gain anything from the other two abilities. Although I will admit this is so very minor, and I've never had this encounter matter before.
Think it has to do with how abilities are rated. Those three abilities are all rated 3 ("Useful"), so consequently, one is not favored over the other, and in Rhydon's case, it ends up being random.
Lowering Lightning Rod's rating causes it to become equal to Static (Manectric, Pikachu), and causes Seaking to always get Swift Swim and Togedemaru to always get Sturdy (both of those also 3).
Increasing Reckless or Rockhead's ratings also ends up having a ton of undesirable effects; Alolan Marowak would never get Lightning Rod anymore, Basculin wouldn't be guaranteed Adaptability, etc.
That's an unfortunate situation that is very case-centric, and, in all honesty, extremely rare as you say - I've never seen this situation happen ever since Eviolite Rhydon's introduction playing dozens of games every day, either.
Is it possible to force Superpower on Lurantis so that it can better abuse Contrary? Superpower also mitigates Lurantis's subpar bulk, which it really appreciates since its bad speed forces it to take hits. Superpower also provides helpful offensive coverage, for example against Steel types it struggles to dent without Leaf Storm boosts. Furthermore, due to Lurantis's mediocre bulk and horrible speed, it is very difficult for it to get turns to use Defog (the move on this set that Superpower should replace). Using Defog generally means you'll be tanking two hits with no recovery, which often results in Lurantis fainting.
Maybe my request isn't possible due to how moves are generated, but I thought I'd put it out there. Actually, speaking of how moves/abilities/items are generated, is there a place where that process is fully explained? Thanks!
Maybe my request isn't possible due to how moves are generated, but I thought I'd put it out there. Actually, speaking of how moves/abilities/items are generated, is there a place where that process is fully explained? Thanks!
Why is Snow Cloak even a valid ability? Do we really want to open the can of worms that is evasion abilities? If you want to take the format in this direction, then add Sand Veil Garchomp and Snow Cloak Mamoswine too. That'll motivate me to quit randbats for good though.
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Sand Veil and Snow Cloak both have a viability rating of 1.5.
Ice Body has a viability rating of 1.
I think the only Pokemon that would be affected by Ice Body having a viability rating of 2 instead of 1 (therefore being prioritized over Snow Cloak) would be the mimes, as Screen Cleaner has a rating of 2.
In the case of Garchomp, Rough Skin has a rating of 2.5, and for Mamo, Thick Fat has a rating of 3.5. That's why we don't - and won't - see Sand Veil on them.
I think they were asking for the evasion abilities to have their priority lowered to the point of never being picked for anyone, not for Ice Body to have its priority raised.
Glaceon is the only Pokemon that is able to get Snow Cloak currently. I discussed this issue some time ago and it was determined to be not a big deal, as both of Glaceon's abilities (Ice Body and Snow Cloak) are so situational. Additionally, it is the only Pokemon that has access to an evasion ability that also does not have another better ability to supersede it.
That's what I wanted to get at. It's not going to become a thing on other Pokemon, so the only case left is Glaceon.
It's not like Snow Cloak boosts accuracy by several stages; it's very manageable. With the duration of Hail (and the fact that without dynamaxing Glaceon itself, Glaceon will always, at most, benefit of it for 3-4 turns), this isn't a strategy anyone would consider unless they absolutely need to.
So yeah, Glaceon is just an extreme case whose abilities are just so bad, that a terrible ability in Snow Cloak happens to be its most viable. If we want to remove all ability-related RNG, may as well get moody out of the format (not something that I agree with, for info), and maybe flame body, static, cursed body, etc. that are all just as cheesy, if not more (due to how incredibly impactful they can be), than Snow Cloak.
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