Pokemon Red, Blue, and Yellow In-Game Tiers - Reboot

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GASP! THE TIER LIST LEADER ACTUALLY UPDATED RELATIVELY FAST! WHAT A NOVEL CONCEPT!

Endgame time! I didn't really use Beedrill because mine lacked Swords Dance, but I think it's probably C with it according to Ryota.

Charizard (51): Slash 3HKOs Dewgong while Aurora Beam 3HKOs you. Cloyster is 2HKOed by Flamethrower but watch out for Clamp. Slowbro easily finishes you off; Slash looks like a 5HKO. Oddly Jynx lives Flamethrower and Slash in red and Lapras looks like a 5HKO with Slash (and destroys you with Blizzard). Weirdly, Charizard can take a Hydro Pump from Lapras at full though.

Hypno (51): Psychic is a range to 2HKO Dewgong (if you get Special drop on first hit, you easily 2HKO). Cloyster is cleanly 2HKOed as you do 3/4s of its HP with Psychic. Slowbro is 4HKOed by Psychic, but Hypnosis and Special drops from Psychic mean you cheese through it. Jynx seems 34HKOed by Tri Attack. Lapras is 3HKOed by Psychic.

Cloyster (51): Meh obviously. You can cheese anything sans Jynx (3HKOed by Double-Edge) with Clamp, but this is just not efficient. You take out about 3/4s of foe Cloyster's HP with Explosion and knock Lapras to red with it.

Beedrill (51): No. You outspeed and barely OHKO Jynx with Twineedle though,

Chansey (51): Generally 2HKOS things with Thunderbolt (save Jynx which is a 3HKO), though Cloyster is a range to OHKO. Their physical attacks will wear you down, so a full sweep is unfeasible, mostly thanks to Jynx. Lapras can be beaten one-on-one; Thunderbolt seems a range to 2HKO but you can live even crit Blizzards easily.
Charizard (51): Flamethrower 2HKOs both Onix, OHKOs Hitmonchan and Hitmonlee, and roughly 2HKOs Machamp (burn helped close the gap first time though). You will likely 3HKO Machamp unless you have Fire Blast, though I didn’t try it. Still, you tank Submission easily, so easy sweep.

Hypno (51): Hypno used Psychic! Everything is outsped and OHKOed.

Cloyster (51): Everything is OHKOed by Surf save Machamp (which looks like a rough 2HKO). You seem to outspeed everything save Hitmonlee here, but Bruno tends to X Defend on it. Easy sweep.

Beedrill (51): No.

Chansey (51): Everything is OHKOed by Psychic sans Machamp which is 2HKOed, but them all outspeeding you is troubling. Reflect on the first Onix can help though. With Reflect up, Chansey can actually live Machamp’s Submission in low HP and let it recoil itself to death (or simply kill it with Psychic). Easy sweep more or less if you get lucky, though I did have one failed attempt too.
Agatha
Charizard (51): 2HKOs Poisons with Dig (sans Haunter which is OHKOed) and is pretty nice because you outspeed most things too save the last Gengar. Flamethrower does NOT seem to 2HKO Golbat but it does 2HKO Arbok. xFairly easy sweep!

Hypno (51): Psychic OHKOs everything save the two Gengar, but this isn’t really a sweep because Hypnosis and Confuse Ray are just annoying.

Cloyster (51): Bad. Ice Beam roughly 3HKOS the first Gengar. Night Shade 3HKOs which sucks with Hypnosis. Also 3HKOs Haunter. Ice Beam even looks like a range to OHKO Golbat and it 2HKOs Haunter.

Beedrill (51): No. I mean I guess you could take Arbok, but that’s like…Arbok, lol.

Chansey (51): Standard Agatha really. You 2HKO everything sans the level 60 Gengar with Psychic. Annoying because status. Note Thunderbolt + Psychic does 2HKO Haunter I guess.
(Hope my levels weren’t off here, I forgot to make a save state)
Charizard (52): Unlike Ryota, my Charizard’s Slash failed to 3HKO Gyarados, but I did live Hydro Pump (I blame my low Attack IV). 2HKOs both Dragonair, easily living a crit Hyper Beam at half HP from full. Don’t bother with Aerodacytl, Flamethrower is like a 4HKO and confusion from Supersonic is just annoying. Dragonite is 4HKOed by Slash but you’re likely to get killed first. Did these tests with a bunch of Revives.

Hypno (51): 3HKOs Gyarados and 2HKOs both Dragonair with Psychic. You and Aerodactyl 2HKO each other with Psychic and Hyper Beam respectively. Psychic 4HKOs Dragonite and Hypnosis and Special drops really help here, but it 2HKOs you with Hyper Beam.

Cloyster (51): Ice Beam OHKOs everything save Aerodacytl which is a range. Gyarados is a slugfest via a 3HKO with Ice Beam but you can Clamp it (Leer can make you more fragile though). Great as expected though, you should tank any stray Hyper Beams fine.

Beedrill (51): No.

Chansey (51): OHKOs Gyarados with Thunderbolt but Hyper Beam will OHKO you if it goes for it. 3HKOs Dragonair with Psychic unless you get a Special drop. Reflect can help but if even Dragonair crits at any time with Hyper Beam you just die. Thunderbolt 2HKOs Gyarados and Blizzard OHKOs both Dragonair and Dragonite, if you have it. Seems like Blizzard likely OHKOs Aerodactyl too.
Charizard (52): Pidgeot is 3HKOed by Flamethrower. Rhydon can’t really kill you but Flamethrower looks like a rough 4HKO. Alakazam you generally beat as you can 2HKO it with Slash and it can derp, and Psybeam is only a 3HKO. Dig 2HKOs Arcanine and Flamethrower 2HKOs Exeggutor, albeit barely. Blastoise is like a 5HKO with Slash, so not advised.

Hypno (51): I set up Reflect once on Pidgeot who you 3HKO with Psychic. 2HKO Rhydon with Psychic. Alakazam is annoying with Reflect, but manageable if you sleep it and roll a crit Tri Attack which knocks it to half. Psychic 3HKOs Arcanine. Don’t bother with Exeggutor: it simply takes too long. Good for Blastoise; you 3HKO with Psychic and take paltry damage from his moves.

Cloyster (52): Ice Beam fails to OHKO Pidgeot, leaving it in red. Psybeam from Alakazam can hurt but you can 2HKO it with Double-Edge. Rhydon dies, Arcanine is left in red by Surf, Exeggutor is 3HKOed by Ice Beam, and Blastoise is a slugfest but it’s doing nothing with Bite (can flinch by outspeeding though), HOWEVER, you can beat it one on one if you come in at full HP. Pretty good!

Beedrill (51): Lol, you don’t even OHKO Exeggutor with Twineedle.

Chansey (53): Pidgeot is 2HKOed by Thunderbolt (Blizzard leaves it in red). Alakazam is Sing and Special drop fodder with Psychic (spam Thunderbolt once you get a Special drop, Thunderbolt is a 4HKO otherwise). Rhydon seems to be 3HKOed by Psychic if my crit was any indication (it is OHKOed by Blizzard). Avoid Exeggutor: Stomp is a 3HKO and even if you have Blizzard, it seems like a bad range to 2HKO. Arcanine is 4HKOed by Psychic. Bite from Blastoise does a chunk but you impressively 2HKO it with Thunderbolt. Kinda mediocre.
And now, the tiers!

Charmander: B tier. Post Charizard it feels like an A, but it's not watertight even then with Lance and Lorelei giving it issues. Anything before Slash/Zard is heavily mediocre and a clear step below A tier in my eyes. No way it's C though.

Drowzee: A tier. S tier until the League where it consistently has some issues which keep it from S (it hates status and the fact Psychic doesn't hit a lot SE/OHKO anymore). The lack of Speed also hurts it at the League, but it still remains generally useful.

Beedrill: C tier and no higher. Midgame is good but it desperately needs the Swords Dance TM to even remain remotely relevant.

Chansey: D tier, sucks to get and invest in but if you do I don't think it's like, Ditto or Moltres levels of awful. Could be argued for E based on needing two TMs and being a pain to get, as well as consistently missing KOs you'd think it'd get, but I don't think it's E levels of bad, particularly due to being far and away the best check to Alakazam (not even two critical hit Psychics from Blue's Alakazam 2HKO you)!

Shellder: Just barely a B tier in my eyes. Doesn't have the greatest League ever, but is generally solid there and everywhere else. Low level of 15 at the earliest opportunity sucks but if you DO go for it it performs pretty good. Could be argued for C tier.

I think I'm going to comb through the pages soon and move some things based on mine, Ryota's and others' tests. Stay tuned! Might pick Yellow back up soon and finish that off, but I don't know if I'll test for a while after that as I'm very much still burned out.
 
I have been making logs for Geodude, Clefairy and Machop recently.
IVs for everyone are 9 Atk, 8 everything else.

Geodude (17): Rock Throw OHKOs Pidgeotto and Abra (and probably OHKOs Rattata and 2HKOs Bulbasaur, too). Mega Punch 3HKOs Pidgeotto, OHKOs Rattata and 2HKOs Bulbasaur, but Bulbasaur will defeat you if it uses Vine Whip. Pidgeotto can make the match-up more difficult with Sand Attack. Mega Punch isn't needed to actually win, but on the other hand, the player needs luck with Rock Throw.

Clefable (17): Mega Punch misses short of a 2HKO against Pidgeotto (it is probably a range). Mega Punch OHKOs Rattata and misses short of a OHKO to Bulbasaur. Pound is a 4HKO against Pidgeotto, a OHKO against Abra, a 2HKO against Rattata and a 3HKO against Bulbasaur. Bulbasaur can be dealt easier with Sing. The Mega Punch TM isn't needed.


Clefable (22): Body Slam + Pound 2HKOs Pidgeotto, Raticate and Ivysaur, and Body Slam OHKOs and Kadabra. Pound 3HKOs Pidgeotto, Raticate and 4HKOs Ivysaur. A Normal TM is not needed yet.

Geodude (22): Rock Throw can miss the OHKO against Pidgeotto (it is a range), so Body Slam is the better alternative. Body Slam 2HKOs Raticate, and missed the OHKO against Kadabra (though it seems to be a range). Rock Throw is a 2HKO against Raticate and a OHKO against Kadabra. Ivysaur OHKOs you with Vine Whip. A Normal TM doesn't change the result, although there's some luck needed for Rock Throw.


Clefable (23): Pound 2HKOs Staryu, but it turns into a 3HKO after Misty's X Defense (1/4 chance). Pound 4HKOs Starmie, yet it turns into a 6HKO Starmie after Misty's X Defense. Mega Punch OHKOs Staryu and 2HKO Starmie (3HKO after a Misty's Defense). Seismic Toss 2HKOs Staryu and 3HKOs Starmie. Staryu 9HKOs Clefable with Water Gun. Starmie 6HKOs Clefable with Bubble Beam. You can make the battle much easier with Sing/Thunder Wave. A TM is not needed for a positive match-up.

Geodude (23): Staryu's Water Gun OHKOs Geodude. However, Geodude OHKOs Staryu and Starmie with Selfdestruct even after Misty's X Defense, which means that it can take down one of them with Sleep support. Unfortunately, it only inflicts 3/4 health to Starmie after Misty's X Defense. Obviously not a good match-up.


Machop (26): Mega Kick OHKOs Voltorb and Pikachu, and it 2HKOs Raichu with Mega Kick + Mega Punch. Raichu 4HKOs with Thundershock and 2HKOs with Thunderbolt, but it can't 2HKO with Thundershock + Thunderbolt. Machop OHKOs everyone with Dig (2HKOs Raichu if it used Growl). The Dig TM isn't needed to win, but it increases reliability significantly.

Golem (26): Golem OHKOs Voltorb and Pikachu and 2HKOs Raichu with Mega Punch. Golem OHKOs Raichu with Mega Kick. Golem can't be defeated by Pikachu or Raichu. Obviously trivial match-up even without the Dig TM.

Clefable (26): Clefable OHKOs Voltorb and Pikachu and 2HKOs Raichu with Mega Punch. Clefable OHKOs Raichu with Mega Kick. Clefable is safe from Raichu's attacks (it is 7HKO'd by Thundershock).


Machop (27): Machop 2HKOs Pidgeotto with Mega Kick + Mega Punch. The 2HKO against Gyarados with Mega Kick is a range, and Gyarados can 3HKO with Dragon Rage (2HKO with worse HP DVs) and 4HKO with Bite. Mega Kick OHKOs Growlithe and Kadabra. Machop 2HKOs Ivysaur with Mega Kick + Mega Punch. Overall, Machop can defeat everyone 1v1, but a sweep can be stopped by Gyarados. The Rock Slide TM doesn't turn any 2HKO with Mega Kick into a OHKO, but it increases reliability.

Golem (27): Golem OHKOs Pidgeotto with Mega Kick (it is a range). Gyarados OHKOs Golem with Hydro Pump. Golem OHKOs Growlithe with Mega Kick and Kadabra with Mega Punch. Golem 2HKOs Ivysaur with Mega Kick + Mega Punch, even after Leech Seed. Rock Slide TM doesn't turn any 2HKO with Mega Kick into a OHKO, but it increases reliability.

Clefable (27): Clefable OHKOs Pidgeotto with Mega Kick (it is a range). Clefable 2HKOs Gyarados with Mega Kick + Mega Punch, while Gyarados 3HKOs with Dragon Rage/Hydro Pump and 6HKOs with Bite (12HKOs if Reflect is up). Clefable OHKOs Growlithe with Mega Punch. Clefable OHKOs Ivysaur with Mega Kick. You can make the battle easier with Sing against Gyarados or Ivysaur. The Thunderbolt TM only makes the battle against Gyarados faster.4


Machamp (31): Machamp 2HKOs Onix, OHKOs Rhyhorn and 2HKOs Kangaskhan with Low Kick. Machamp OHKOs everyone with Submission. Trivial match-up without the Dig TM.

Golem (31): Golem misses short of a OHKO with Submission against Onix. Golem OHKOs Rhyhorn with Submission. Golem 2HKOs Kangaskhan with Submission + Mega Punch. None of Giovanni's Pokémon can damage Golem. Easy match-up even without the Dig TM.

Clefable (31): Clefable 2HKOs Onix and Rhyhorn with Submission, and it 2HKOs Kangaskhan with Mega Kick. Sing or Reflect can make the battle easier. If you give Clefable a Water TM, Onix and Rhyhorn are trivially OHKOd even by Water Gun.


Machamp (31): Machamp 2HKOs Tangela with Mega Kick + Low Kick. Machamp 2HKOs Victreebel and Vileplume with Mega Kick + Mega Punch. Victreebel barely misses out on a 2HKO with Razor Leaf, although lower DVs could turn this into a 2HKO, and Victreebel outspeeds Machamp, which can be problematic if it decides to use Wrap. Vileplume 3HKOs Machamp with Petal Dance. A sweep is inconsistent because of Victreebel, but Machamp can definitely take on any of them 1 vs 1.

Golem (31): It is OHKOd by Razor Leaf and Petal Dance. Since it's outsped by Victreebel, it can only use Selfdestruct on it once another Pokémon has slept or paralyzed it, though it can 2HKO with Mega Kick + Mega Punch. Golem can defeat Tangela with Mega Kick + Mega Punch since Tangela lacks Grass-type moves. Golem outspeeds Vileplume and OHKOs with Selfdestruct. This does not work if Tangela got a speed drop with Constrict. With Sleep support, it can defeat Vileplume with Mega Kick + Mega Punch. Surprisingly better than expected given the type disadvantage but definitely far from optimal.

Clefable (31): Clefable outspeeds and 2HKOs Victreebel with a combination of Mega Kick + Mega Punch. Victreebel's Razor Leaf and Vileplume's Petal Dance 4HKO Clefable. The Ice Beam and Psychic TMs are barely stronger than STAB Mega Kick when taking into account effectiveness, and thus only make the match-up more reliable. Sing makes the match-up much easier.

So far Clefable feels like an S Tier mon in the earlygame, although I don't think I'm discovering anything to anyone with that statement. I'm expecting it to drop off later due to its low speed, just like Drumstick's Hypno. Geodude catches up to Clefable's power once it evolves to Golem at lv25, and Machop takes a bit of investment since it joins very underleveled (it was being tanked by an Oddish's Absorb lmao).
 
Last edited:

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
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ok so, this post never got submitted for whatever reason. Anyways:

here are more runs that I did. The first one is Golem / Machamp / Vaporeon / Kabutops.

Main issue with Golem is overreliance on the Dig TM to be efficient in the earlier portions of the game. Without Dig (a very contested TM, though Golem is likely a primary candidte for it, since it's a Ground-type), your best move till Rock Slide TM is Rock Throw, which has a whooping 65% accuracy. Furthermore, Geodude is rather slow and thus will often get outsped and thus dealt damage or crippled, as seen with Blaine, where it is slower than most things and thus you can be hit by Fire Spin and waste your time. However, with a Ground STAB and Rock Slide, Golem hits hard and Self-destruct/Explosion are very good for KOing a tougher opponent. Still, I am not sure if I would give it higher than B-tier, but it's otherwise excellent.

TMs used: Dig, Rock Slide
Blue #2 (20): Rock Throw 2HKOs Pidgeotto and Bulbasaur, with Abra and Rattata being non-threats. Bulbasaur has to derp to be defeated.

Misty(25): you can OHKO Starmie with Self-destruct, as you live a Water Gun. Obviously, a Geodude wouldn't be able to live one, so you need to overlevel to OHKO

Blue #3 (25): Dig OHKOs Ivysaur and Rock Throw OHKOs the rest.

Lt. Surge(25): even without Dig, Golem can still win by Rock Throw spam, but it will be a lot slower due to faulty accuracy and Growls. Dig does trivialize the whole fight

Giovanni (all fights): spam Ground STAB of choice and win

Blue #4 (30): Rock Slide OHKOs everything, but Gyara is faster and OHKOs with Hydro Pump

Erika(31): Rock Slide 2HKOs Tangela and Self-destruct OHKOs Vileplume. You lose to Victreebel.

Blue #5 (40): Rock Slide OHKOs Pidgeot and Gyarados, though Gyarados OHKOs with Hydro Pump. EQ OHKOs Alakazam and Growlithe. If Venusaur goes for Leech Seed (it's faster), you can use Self-Destruct to OHKO

Koga(41): Earthquake spam wins

Sabrina(42): Earthquake OHKOs everything bar Venomoth, which is OHKOed by Rock Slide. However, you are outsped quite commonly and Kadabra's Psychic is a 2HKO. Furthermore, they often use Reflect or Barrier, turning the OHKOs into 2HKOs. Worth mentioning that Explosion OHKOs Zam even if it goes for Reflect.

Blaine(47): Earthquake OHKOs everything, but, bar Growlite, everything outspeeds it.

Blue #6(47): Rock Slide almost OHKOs Pidgeot and Gyarados, though you get OHKOed by Hydro Pump. Rhyhorn, Growlithe, and Alakazam are OHKOed by EQ, though Zam 2HKOs with Psychic. Venusaur always wins

Lorelei(51): Rock Slide 2HKOs Dewgong and Lapras, but Dewgong is faster and 2HKOs with Aurora Beam, while Lapras has Water moves. Jynx deals heavy damage with Ice Punch, though it dies to EQ. Cloyster and Slowbro just win this.

Bruno(51): Earthquake OHKOs Onix and 2HKOs the rest. Fighting STAB can cause it problems, but at least it doesn't get 2HKOed by them.

Agatha(51): Earthquake OHKOs everything bar Golbat, which is 2HKOed by Rock Slide. Watch out for status, but the matchup is great otherwise

Lance(52): Rock Slide 2HKOs Dragonite and OHKOs Aerodactyl, while Earthquake 2HKOs Dragonair. To beat all of them, you might need to heal once, but not necessarily.

Champion Blue(52): beats Pidgeot, Arcanine, and Rhydon. Zam deals heavy damage with Psychic, but is OHKOed by Earthquake

Machamp is a bit hard to tier, because it's somewhat borderline between B and C. On one hand, Machamp definitely has power and can do things like beat Lorelei TMless. However, on the other hand, Machamp has some issues on its own, mainly the annoying Machop grind and subpar Fighting STABs (Low Kick is at least better than Submission, though). If there was something like B- or C+, Machamp would probably belong to one of them.
Machamp is definitely not an easy case of tiering, though Rock Slide + Earthquake one does near the B-tier. Luckily, Xator_Nova is testing this, so he can help here

TMs used: Rock Slide, Earthquake
Giovanni (all fights): Low Kick and Earthquake hit whatever you need them to hit

Blue #4 (30): Rock Slide 2HKOs Ivysaur and OHKOs the rest.

Erika(30): Rock Slide 2HKOs Victreebel (might be rolls) and 3HKOs the rest. Crit Karate Chop 2HKOs Victreebel and Vileplume, though the latter looks like rolls. Note that Machamp does not always land crits with Karate Chop, as it has less than 64 base Speed. Watch out for status and special move, though

Blue #5 (40): 2HKOs Pidgeot with Rock Slide and OHKOs Growlithe with Earthquake. Alakazam, Venusaur, and Gyarados hit it hard with special attacks and Machamp will, at most, take out one of them if lucky enough

Koga(41): EQ 2HKOs Weezing and OHKOs the rest. Easy sweep.

Sabrina(43): Earthquake OHKOs everything bar Venomoth, which is OHKOed by Rock Slide. However, Zam and Kadabra are faster, with Kadabra putting it in red with Psychic.

Blaine(47): bar Arcanine, which is put in red, Earthquake OHKOs everything. However, Rapidash and Arcanine are faster. The former has Fire Spin, but the latter only 3HKOs with Fire Blast.

Blue #6 (47): Rock Slide 2HKOs Pidgeot and Gyarados, but Gyara pmuch annihilates it with Hydro Pump. Earthquake deals with Rhyhorn and Growlithe. Zam beats you with no problems. Venusaur is 3HKOed by EQ and can be defeated if it spams anything but Razor Leaf

Lorelei(50): Low Kick 2HKOs Dewgong and Lapras, with the former spamming Rest. Jynx is OHKOed by Rock Slide, while Cloyster is 3HKOed by Rock Slide. Not a bad matchup at all

Bruno(51): Earthquake 2HKOs Onix, while crit Karate Chop 2HKOs Hitmons (in case he throws in X Defense). Machamp is 3HKOed by Earthquake. As a whole, not a bad matchup, but there are a lot of things that I'd rather use here than Machamp.

Agatha(51): Earthquake OHKOs the Ghosts and Arbok. Rock Slide 2HKOs Golbat. Only watch out for status, but when you are not statused, you are mostly OHKOing stuff

Lance(51): Earthquake 2HKOs Dragonair and Rock Slide 2HKOs Aero. DNite spams Barrier, so you will take some time beating it. Note that Aero pmuch autoloses if it goes for Hyper Beam.

Champion Blue(51): Rock Slide 2HKOs Pidgeot. Earthquake 2HKOs Rhydon and Arcanine. The rest are not good matchups


Vaporeon is probably one of the best Water-types for the games. It competes for that title with Squirtle, which comes earlier, but is weaker in terms of Special stat, and Gyarados, which has the Magikarp period, but a higher TM versatility, independence from the Ice Beam TM and good Attack. Unlike the mid-game Water-types, Vaporeon does not need sequence breaking and is very easy to obtain. Furthermore, it comes at level 25, which means you can obtain it not only "early" (well, mid-game, but that's still not that far into the game), but also lacks the grinding period that most Water-types suffer from. It also needs only an Ice TM, preferably Ice Beam to sweep Erika. It does share similar roadblocks as most Water-types at the E4 and maybe Sabrina, but Vaporeon is definitely B-tier at worst. A-tier is still possible, though you probably have to emphasize heavily on its superior availability, compared to the other Water-types, though I don't think it's impossible and would say that it staying in A is fine by me, but I can also see why someone would want to drop it to B.

TMs used: Ice Beam (and Bubble Beam as secondary STAB)

Giovanni (all fights): spam Surf (or Bubble Beam)

Blue #4 (30): Bubble Beam 2HKOs Pidgeotto and Kadabra and OHKOs Growlithe. Ice Beam OHKOs Ivysaur and 3HKOs Gyarados

Erika(31): Ice Beam OHKOs Tangela and 2HKOs the rest. Razor Leaf 2HKOs it and Petal Dance 3HKOs it. If you do not get a Sleep Powder, Vaporeon can comfortably sweep, as it outspeeds everything

Blue #5 (40): Surf 2HKOs Pidgeot and Alakazam. Bubble Beam OHKOs Growlithe. Ice Beam 2HKOs Venusaur, which 2HKOs with Razor Leaf, but is slower, and 4HKOs Gyarados with Ice Beam

Koga(41): Surf OHKOs Koffing and 2HKOs the rest. No issues here, other than Smokescreen.

Sabrina(42): Surf 3HKOs Zam and 2HKOs the rest. Zam can be beaten if healthy enough, as Psybeam doesn't deal a lot of damage.

Blaine(42): spam Surf. And yes, I know I am underleveled, I was giving Exp. to the other teammates

Blue #6 (47): Surf 2HKOs Pidgeot, 3HKOs Alakazam, and OHKOs Rhyhorn and Growlithe. Ice Beam 3HKOs Gyarados and 2HKOs Venusaur, which you can beat if healthy enough. Note that Zam deals heavy damage or even beats you.

Lorelei(51): not very efficient here, but can comfortably take out Cloyster and Jynx by 3HKOing them with Surf.

Bruno(51): Surf 2HKOs Machamp and OHKOs the rest.

Agatha(52): Surf 3HKOs the Ghosts and 2HKOs Arbok. Ice Beam 2HKOs Golbat. The matchup is somewhat iffy, because of Gengar's status and Night Shade

Lance(52): Ice Beam OHKOs Dragonite and puts Dragonair in red, while Surf OHKOs Aerodactyl. Set up an Acid Armor to tank non-crit Hyper Beams better.

Champion Blue(52): beats Rhydon, Arcanine, and Pidgeot with no problems. Zam generally 1v1s you due to taking Surfs comfortably. Gyarados takes Ice Beam like a champ. Venusaur is 3HKOed and deals heavy damage with Grass STAB


I am leaning towards C-tier myself on Kabuto. Its Surf is not particularly powerful (often 2HKOs and 3HKOs) and SD + Double-Edge, while somewhat effective, often requires more than one SD to sweep and similar. There really isn't much to say about Kabuto, honestly. If possible, just use Omanyte.

TMs used: Ice Beam, Swords Dance, Double-Edge

Blue #5 (40): set up two SDs and OHKO Gyara and Pidgeot with Double-Edge (+2 doesn't OHKO Gyarados and you die to Hydro Pump due to that) and Surf OHKOs Growlithe. It can live a Confusion from Zam and OHKO it back with Double-Edge. Venusaur always wins

Giovanni (all fights): spam Surf

Sabrina(42): SD and then spam DEdge. You KO yourself against Venomoth if you took a Psychic from Kadabra

Blaine(47): Surf

Blue #6 (47): set up two SDs against Pidgeot and OHKO it, Gyarados, Venusaur and Zam with Double-Edge (+2 fails to OHKO Gyarados , which then murders you with Pump). Surf OHKOs Growlithe and Rhyhorn. Note that Pidgeot spams Agility, so it's a non-threat.

Lorelei(51): +4 Double-Edge OHKOs Dewgong, puts Cloyster in potion range, OHKOs Jynx, and almost OHKOs Lapras. 2HKOs Slowbro. You need to heal due to recoil, however.

Bruno(51): Surf 3HKOs Machamp and OHKOs the rest.

Agatha(51): bad. Surf 3HKOs Arbok and Haunter and 4HKOs at best the Gengar. Golbat is 2HKOed by Ice Beam.

Lance(51): Ice Beam 2HKOs Dragons and Surf 2HKOs Aerodactyl. It may need to heal due to Dragon Rage

Champion Blue(52): set up 3 SDs while Pidgeot spams Mirror Move and OHKO it with Double-Edge. You also outspeed Zam and Gyarados and OHKO them with Double-Edge. Surf OHKOs Rhydon and 2HKOs Arcanine (you may have to heal against Arcanine due to recoil). Venusaur is OHKOed by +6 Double-Edge


I did another run with Raticate / Exeggutor / Slowbro / Electabuzz

Raticate was very disappointing. I expected a lot more from it. Raticate is useful for Misty and Lt. Surge, but after that, it falls flat for the rest of the game, often failing to sweep and having difficulty with some Pokemon from each fight. Its E4 performance, beyond Agatha with Dig, is also not very spectacular. I think there is a need for a serious consideration for C-tier. However, I recommend that someone gives it another test before saying it's C-tier, because I may have placed a bit too high expectations on it and thus may be affecting my nomination.

TMs used: Double-Edge, Bubble Beam, sometimes Dig and Thunderbolt
Brock(11): useless, but can Tail Whip for a teammate

Blue #2(20): Hyper Fang OHKOs everything, with QAttack covering Abra and Rattata

Misty(21): Hyper Fang OHKOs Staryu on rolls (seems to be a high roll, as I rarely failed to OHKO). Starmie is 3HKOed by Hyper Fang and finished off by QAttack as long as it doesn't go for X Defense immediately

Blue #3(25): Hyper Fang puts Ivysaur in red and OHKOs the rest. Quick Attack OHKOs Kadabra

Lt. Surge(25): Hyper Fang OHKOs Voltorb and 2HKOs Raichu (it still kills even if you get a Growl after hitting it first time), with Quick Attack OHKOing Pikachu

Giovanni #1(30): OHKOs rocks with Bubble Beam and 3HKOs Kanga with Hyper Fang, though the second one puts it in range for Quick Attack

Blue #4(30): Hyper Fang puts Pidgeotto and Gyarados into QA range, though Thunderbolt OHKOs the latter. Hyper Fang OHKOs Growlithe and QA OHKOs Kadabra. Hyper Fang puts Ivysaur into QA range

Erika(30): Hyper Fang 2HKOs everything, though Mega Drain turns Vileplume into a 3HKO. Note that Victreebel 2HKOs with Razor Leaf and can also put you to sleep. All in all, if you get hits, you are taking out 2/3 of her team, generally. Double-Edge should help here, but forgot to TM it

Blue #5(39): Double-Edge 2HKOs Pidgeot and Gyarados and OHKOs Growlithe and Alakazam, though it dies to recoil after that. Thunderbolt 2HKOs the Flying-types as well

Giovanni #2(41): Double-Edge OHKOs Nidorino on rolls and KOs Kangaskhan after a Super Fang. Rhyhorn dies to Bubble Beam. Nidoqueen lives a Double-Edge even after a Super Fang and will likely finish you off

Koga(41): Double-Edge 2HKOs Koffing and KOs Muk after a Super Fang. Weezing lives a Double-Edge after a Super Fang, but it can explode, thus ending the fight anyways

Sabrina(42): Double-Edge OHKOs Kadarba and Mr. Mime and 2HKOs the rest. However, with recoil, Zam will finish you off

Blaine(46): Double-Edge kills the LCs and 2HKOs the rest, though it loses against Arcanine due to recoil

Giovanni #3 (46): Bubble Beam OHKOs Rhyhorn and 2HKOs Rhydon. Double-Edge OHKOs Dugtrio and 2HKOs the rest, though you may need to heal against Nidoking

Blue #6 (46): DEdge 2HKOs Pidgeot, Growlithe, and Alakazam (though Zam outspeeds and finishes you off), while Bubble Beam OHKOs Rhyhorn and Thunderbolt 2HKOs Gyarados

Lorelei(51): Super Fang + DEdge KOs Jynx and Dewgong. Super Fang + Thunderbolt KOs Cloyster and two Super Fangs + Thunderbolt KO Slowbro if it doesn't go for Amnesia

Bruno(51): Bubble Beam OHKOs Onix and 3HKOs Hitmonchan (avoids Counter). Double-Edge puts Hitmonlee in red and 2HKOs Machamp after a Super Fang, though it dies to Fighting STAB

Agatha(51): DEdge 2HKOs Arbok and Golbat. Dig outspeeds and OHKOs Haunter and 2HKOs Gengar #1. 2HOs Gengar #2, but Raticate is outsped. The matchup is pretty bad without Dig, however

Lance(51): Thunderbolt 2HKOs Gyarados and 3HKOs Aerodactyl. DEdge 2HKOs Dragonair as well. However, it's taking Hyper Beams, so you are very unlikely to kill many things.

Champion Blue (52): DEdge KOs Pidgeot after a Super Fang and Bubble Beam 2HKOs Rhydon. The rest beat it, though Zam is put in red by DEdge


Exeggutor's biggest plus is its ability to be good on the get-go; it can be TMed Psychic and then evolved immediately. In addition, its other STAB, Mega Drain, is not contested. However, Mega Drain + Psychic means that Eggy will often take some time beating an opposing Psychic-type. Modulo raised earlier the suggestion of putting Exeggcute in C. I am going to say that this isn't strictly a bad idea, because it does struggle against the Special behemoths and is also rather slow. I do not mind it that much in B, but C isn't really out of question.

TMs used: Psychic, Mega Drain
Erika(26): Psychic 2HKOs everything without feeling threatened whatsoever

Blue #5(39): Psychic 2HKOs Pidgeot and Venusaur and OHKOs Growlithe. Use Reflect on Pidgeot. Put Zam and Gyara to sleep with Hypnosis and spam Mega Drain on them. Not a bad matchup

Giovanni #3(39): Mega Drain OHKOs Rhyhorn and Psychic OHKOs the rest. Easy sweep

Koga(40): Psychic OHKOs everything

Sabrina(41): Mega Drain 3HKOs Mr. Mime and 6HKOs Zam. Psychic OHKOs Venomoth. You want to put Kadabra to sleep so you can just muscle through it. You are unlikely to beat Zam in timely fashion

Blaine(46): Psychic OHKOs the unevolved stuff and 2HKOs the rest. Rapidash is faster and spams Fire Spin, so avoid it. Put Arcanine to sleep and you are done

Giovanni #3(46): Psychic OHKOs Nidos and Mega Drain OHKOs the rest

Blue #6 (46): Psychic 2HKOs Pidgeot and Venusaur and OHKOs Growlithe. Mega Drain OHKOs Rhyhorn and 4HKOs the rest. Use Reflect and put things that threaten you to sleep, most notably Alakazam, which can spam Recover

Lorelei(51): Mega Drain 2HKOs Cloyster and Slowbro and 3HKOs Lapras and Dewgong. Jynx should be avoided. Note that Lapras deals heavy damage with Blizzard, so put it to sleep

Bruno(51): Mega Drain OHKOs Onix and Psychic OHKOs the rest

Agatha(51): Psychic 2HKOs Gengar and OHKOs the rest. As always, slower than Gengar, so it can be crippled by status

Lance(52): Psychic 2HKOs Dragonair 3HKOs Dragonite. Aerodactyl is 3HKOed by Mega Drain. Gyarados can be beaten by putting it to sleep and spamming Mega Drain. Use Reflect here to tank Hyper Beam better

Champion Blue(52): beats Rhydon and Venusaur easily. Gyarados can be beaten by Reflecting, putting it to sleep, and spamming Mega Drain and Psychic. Pidgeot is 3HKOed by Psychic (crit doesn't OHKO), so put that to sleep too, if you are gonna fight it


Man, this disappointed me a lot. I was expecting Slowbro to be extremely broken once I got it. However, I didn't really get that performance.

Let's first start with the Slowpoke period. It's awful. Like, really. Slowpoke will struggle 2HKOing stuff in the beginning if you take the level 15 one. So maybe it's better to just grab a later one, but it's still going to be awful. I am going to note that Blue players can get a level 38 Slowbro somewhere in Seafoam Islands, though it's 1% chance so you may spend some time Repel tricking. Yellow players have the same, but a level 31 one instead, and Red players are screwed completely here.

Now, when you get to Slowbro, you have to realize that its Special is only 80. Amnesia, while cool, often needs to be more than one in order to achieve OHKOs. Furthermore, Slowbro is very slow and often will take damage and sometimes that means it has to heal. There's no doubt that +6 Slowbro can OHKO everything, it's just that this is not really efficient. Slowbro is a bit similar to Poliwrath in that they need Amnesias to do well, so they can probably be lumped together in one tier, probably C-tier from my experience. Though a retest may be good here, as I also placed a lot of expectations here and that may have affected my nomination.

TMs used: Psychic, Ice Beam
Erika(30): beats Tangela, but sucks for the rest. Outsped and hit hard by Grass STAB (OHKOed by Razor Leaf, in fact).

Blue #5(39): Surf and Ice Beam 2HKO Pidgeot. Avoid Gyara, as it takes too much time to be defeated and can even beat you itself. Growlithe dies easily to Surf and Zam doesn't threaten you a lot. Venusaur will likely murder you with Razor Leaf, but Psychic will 2HKO

Giovanni #2(39): Psychic OHKOs Nidorino and Surf spam covers the rest.

Koga(40): Psychic OHKOs Koffing and 2HKOs the rest.

Sabrina(41): Surf 3HKOs Kadabra and 2HKOs Mr. Mime with Surf. Psychic almost OHKOs Venomoth. Zam stalemates with Recover spam.

Blaine(41): spam Surf. Yes, I know I am underleveled, I was giving Exp. to the other members

Giovanni #3(45): Surf spam wins easily

Blue #6(46): +2 Surf 2HKOs Pidgeot (Ice Beam OHKOs) and Alakazam and OHKOs Rhyhorn and Growlithe. +2 Psychic 2HKOs Gyarados and OHKOs Venusaur, though the latter kills you with Razor Leaf

Lorelei(51): +2 Psychic OHKOs Cloyster and 2HKOs the rest (Jynx is 2HKOed by +2 Surf, obviously). I didn't have to heal at all to win this, though I was left with low HP

Bruno(51): Psychic 2HKOs Machamp and Surf OHKOs the rest

Agatha(52): +2 Psychic OHKOs everything, with Gengar #2 being rolls. However, you are outsped every time and can be crippled by status

Lance(52): +2 Psychic 2HKOs Gyarados and +2 Ice Beam OHKOs the rest. However, you will need to heal as you will be taking Hyper Beams constantly

Champion Blue(52): +4 Ice Beam OHKOs Pidgeot, while +4 Psychic OHKOs Venusaur and 2HKOs Gyarados. +4 Surf 2HKOs Zam and OHKOs the rest. You may have to heal, as you are slow


Yeah, Electabuzz is not what I'd call "great". Even with Thunderbolt and Psychic, its unimpressive Special means it misses OHKOs often, especially on the E4 Gyarados (lol Thundepunch fails to OHKO Blue's Gyarados). Now, it's worth mentioning that it learns Thunderpunch by level, meaning you may try getting by without Thunderbolt. However, TPunch is not close to the capture levels, meaning you have to grind with Thundershock till you get the move. Furthermore, Thunderpunch misses many KOs that Thunderbolt doesn't, so yeah, if you are using Electabuzz, just teach it Thunderbolt.

It is worth mentioning that it learns Strength, so it can have at least some HM utility. Still, Electabuzz is a C-tier at best and you could even make a case for D if you stretch it enough. Really, Voltorb outclasses this, for most parts.

TMs used: Thunderbolt, Psychic
Blue #5(39): Thunderbolt OHKOs Gyara and Pidgeot and 2HKOs Growlithe. Strength 2HKOs Alakazam. Venusaur seems to be a 2HKO with Psychic, but it finishes you off

Giovanni #2(39): Psychic OHKOs Nidorino on rolls and Thunderbolt 2HKOs Kangaskhan. Psychic 2HKOs Rhyhorn. 3HKOs Nidoqueen. No problems here

Sabrina(41): Strength 2HKOs Kadabra and Mr. Mime, with Psychic and Thunderbolt 2HKOing Venomoth. Alakazam is 3HKOed by Strength and often spams Recover. Reflect also makes the matchup harder

Blaine(46): Thunderbolt OHKOs Growlithe, 2HKOs Rapidash and Ponyta, and 3HKOs Arcanine, which 3HKOs with Fire Blast.

Giovanni #3(46): Psychic 3HKOs Rhydon and 2HKOs the rest. Somewhat slow, but the fact an Electric-type isn't nearly useless here is impressive

Blue #6 (46): Thunderpunch 2HKOs Pidgeot and Growlithe and OHKOs Gyarados, with TBolt also OHKOing Pidgeot. Psychic 2HKOs Rhyhorn and 3HKOs Venusaur, though the latter beats you. Alakazam stalemates you due to Strength + Recover.

Lorelei(51): Thunderbolt OHKOs Cloyster, 3HKOs Jynx, and 2HKOs the rest. No problems here, as a whole

Bruno(52): Psychic OHKOs Hitmons and Onix #1 and 2HKOs the rest.

Agatha(52): Thunderbolt puts Golbat in red. Psychic 3HKOs the Ghosts, but outspeeds all of them, and 2HKOs Arbok

Lance(52): beats Gyarados and Aerodactyl, but isn't really good for the rest. Note that Thunderpunch fails to OHKO Gyarados...

Champion Blue(52): Thunderbolt 2HKOs Pidgeot and OHKOs Gyarados. TBolt also 4HKOs Arcanine and Psychic seem to be 3-4HKO on Venusaur, which will generally beat you anyways


I have a run with Nidoking / Wigglytuff / Farfetch'd / Haunter done, but I will post once I have analyzed the matchups. I am also doing a run with Nidoqueen / Arcanine / Dodrio / Seel (traded one, available to Red and Blue, but not Japanese Blue).

e: upon further evaluation, I came to conclusion I actually lean more towards C on Exeggcute than B. I did not take into account its slow Exp. group and didn't pay much attention to its dependance on the Psychic TM.
 
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I'm not terribly surprised about Slowbro; Psychic and Amnesia sound great because it's RBY, but the Psychic-type isn't as good when you get Slowpoke (which misses most of the Poison-heaviest stretch from ~Vermilion through Fuchsia) and set-up works better on mons that move first. Ordinarily I'd suggest holding off till Seafoam for the level 30-ish Slowpoke, since I personally would usually rather take the extra Route + Koga's Gym than have to raise something up from level 15. But Slowpoke has quite a late evolution so it would be annoying either way (unless you repel for the level 38 Slowbro, which I haven't tried doing, so I don't know if that's maybe the optimal strat, though 1% is intimidating).
 
Hey Ryota Mitarai, your logs are very thorough as always but I'm confused: you can get Kabuto before Koga? You mentioned it but afaik the only possible way is by trading. The fight it technically is available for is Erika (and Lt. Surge I guess but lol), although I don't see it doing much there for obvious reasons. Also not sure if it's worth trying Hyper Beam instead of Double-Edge if this fails to get KOS, but I suppose that needing it makes it worse. Ftr the set I was thinking was SD | Hyper Beam | Surf | Slash (Ice Beam for Lance).
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributor
Hey Ryota Mitarai, your logs are very thorough as always but I'm confused: you can get Kabuto before Koga? You mentioned it but afaik the only possible way is by trading. The fight it technically is available for is Erika (and Lt. Surge I guess but lol), although I don't see it doing much there for obvious reasons. Also not sure if it's worth trying Hyper Beam instead of Double-Edge if this fails to get KOS, but I suppose that needing it makes it worse. Ftr the set I was thinking was SD | Hyper Beam | Surf | Slash (Ice Beam for Lance).
I had to hack the Kabuto in because I accidentally took Helix Fossil, but by mistake used it for Koga (I hacked it in a bit earlier so I do not forget later).

So it's an error on my part, good catch
 
I caught a Shellder in Seafoam Islands to test further.
At this point I need to make an addendum: Since I caught Shellder in Seafoam Islands, I didn't test it for Koga. So I just copied my save before battling Koga to actually test the match-ups later.

There's also a level discrepancy between party members in the logs. This is caused by a couple of factors. First of all, I wanted to make sure I was applying similar experience investment. Certain mons like Machop join with 10000 exp under the rest of the team, and this is reflected on the levels. Another point is the leveling rate: Shellder belongs to the Slow experience group, while Clefairy belongs to the Fast experience group. For Silph I had to avoid using Clefable too much. This doesn't mean Shellder's total experience equates to Clefairy's, since Shellder has much more, but I simply gave Shellder a similar amount of experience to what the others got from the point Shellder was caught. I'm not implying with this that everyone should play or test this way, it's simply how I personally feel that the mons are better represented.

Anyways, onto the logs.

Machamp (40): Machamp 2HKOs Pidgeot and Venusaur with Mega Kick + Mega Punch. It needs two Mega Kicks to 2HKO Gyarados. Machamp OHKOs Growlithe with a Mega Kick. Rock Slide doesn't turn any 2HKO into a OHKO, but it makes the match-up more reliable. Alakazam outspeeds and OHKOs Machamp, and Venusaur (who outspeeds) and Gyarados can threaten Machamp with Razor Leaf and Hydro Pump respectively. A sweep is very unlikely, if not impossible due to Alakazam.

Golem (42): Golem 2HKOs Pidgeot with Mega Kick + Mega Punch, and it OHKOs Growlithe and Alakazam with Earthquake. Rock Slide allows Golem to OHKO Pidgeot. Gyarados and Venusaur outspeed Golem and OHKO with Hydro Pump and Razor Leaf respectively.

Clefable (42): Clefable 2HKOs Pidgeot, Gyarados and Venusaur with Mega Kick + Mega Punch. Growlithe and Alakazam are OHKO'd by Mega Punch. Sing helps to shut down Pidgeot, Gyarados and Venusaur. Gyarados 4HKOs Clefable with Dragon Rage, and Venusaur 3HKOs with Razor Leaf. Blizzard OHKOs Pidgeot, yet it doesn't OHKO Venusaur. Thunderbolt OHKOs Gyarados, yet it doesn't OHKO Pidgeot. The result is that the special TMs don't make the battle faster other than a specific target, but they nevertheless increase reliability due to their higher accuracy over Mega Kick.

Cloyster (38): Aurora Beam 2HKOs Pidgeot. Gyarados can 3HKO with Dragon Rage, and it's an easy 2HKO if Cloyster was slightly weakened by Pidgeot, while Cloyster 4HKOs Gyarados with Take Down, or 5HKOs with Aurora Beam. Cloyster defeats Growlithe with one Clamp use. Cloyster 2HKOs Alakazam with Take Down. It must be noted that Alakazam outspeeds Cloyster. Alakazam 2HKOs Cloyster with Psybeam, and Venusaur OHKOs with Razor Leaf. The Blizzard TM allows Cloyster to OHKO Pidgeot and 3HKO Gyarados, but it misses out on the OHKO on Venusaur. Overall a rather bad match-up.


Machamp (40): Machamp OHKOs Nidorino with a Mega Kick, and OHKOs Kangaskhan and Rhyhorn with Submission. Machamp 2HKOs Nidoqueen with Mega Kick. It must be noted that Machamp is slower than Kangaskhan and Nidoqueen. Submission's recoil might be problematic, but Machamp shortly misses out on the OHKO with Low Kick.

Golem (42): Golem OHKOs Nidorino, Rhyhorn and Nidoqueen with Earthquake. It misses out shortly on the OHKO with Earthquake against Kangaskhan.

Clefable (43): Clefable OHKOs Nidorino with a Mega Kick, and 2HKOs Kangaskhan with Mega Kick + Mega Punch. Clefable 2HKOs Rhyhorn with Submission, and Nidoqueen with two Mega Kicks. With a Water TM, Clefable OHKOs Rhyhorn trivially. Sing or Reflect make the match-up even easier.

Cloyster (38): Clamp requires 4 hits to defeat Nidorino, Kangaskhan and Nidoqueen, while Aurora Beam 2HKOs. Both Clamp and Aurora Beam OHKO Rhyhorn.



Machamp (41): Machamp 2HKOs Koffing with Mega Punch (it misses out on the OHKO with Mega Kick for very little). Machamp 2HKOs Muk with two Mega Kicks. Machamp 3HKOs Weezing with Mega Kick. The Dig or the Earthquake TMs improve the match-up significantly. Weezing is a 2HKO, and Koffing and Muk are OHKO'd (Muk is a range though). Overall a Ground TM is needed for a reliable sweep.

Golem (43): Golem outspeeds everyone except for Weezing. Golem OHKOs everyone. Trivial match-up.

Clefable (45): Clefable 2HKOs Koffing with Mega Punch (it misses out on the OHKO with Mega Kick for very little). Clefable 2HKOs Muk with Mega Kick + Mega Punch. Clefable 2HKOs Weezing with two Mega Kicks. Weezing's and Muk's Sludge 4HKO. The Psychic TM merely allows Clefable to reach OHKOs against Koffing, since Muk and Weezing are 2HKO'd, but it still makes the match-up better and more reliable. Sing or Reflect can improve the match-up as well.



Machamp (41): It could survive Kadabra's Psychic and Alakazam's Psybeam. Machamp OHKOs Kadabra with Mega Punch. Machamp OHKOs Mr. Mime, Venomoth and Alakazam with Mega Kick. However, a sweep is not possible because everyone is faster than Machamp. It can at least take on everyone 1 vs 1, and it can defeat both Mr. Mime and Venomoth. The Rock Slide and Earthquake TMs aren't needed.

Golem (43): Earthquake OHKOs everyone except for Mr. Mime after Barrier. Venomoth won't attack because Stun Spore is a Grass-type move, although the paralysis chance can disrupt the sweep. Note that Sabrina's Pokémon are all faster than Geodude, and I survived with just 1 HP.

Cloyster (41): Cloyster's Clamp 6HKOs Kadabra, 4-5HKOs Mr. Mime (it is a range), 5-6HKOs Venomoth (it is a range) and 8HKOs Alakazam. Cloyster's Aurora Beam 4HKOs Kadabra, 3HKOs Mr. Mime, 4HKOs Venomoth. Cloyster's Take Down OHKOs Kadabra, and 2HKOs Alakazam. Cloyster's Blizzard 2HKOs Kadabra and 3HKOs Alakazam. Mr. Mime can be defeated with Blizzard + Aurora Beam. Selfdestruct OHKOs Alakazam. A sweep is possible if Cloyster explodes on Sabrina's last Pokémon, but it requires the Selfdestruct TM.

Clefable (45): Clefable OHKOs Kadabra and Mr. Mime with Mega Punch. Clefable OHKOs Venomoth and Alakazam with Mega Kick. Kadabra 4HKOs with Psychic. Easy battle.


Machamp (45): Machamp's Mega Kick OHKOs Growlithe, Ponyta and Rapidash, and it 2HKOs Arcanine. Arcanine 3HKOs Machamp with Fire Blast, although with lower DVs it could be a 2HKO. Both Rapidash and Arcanine outspeed Machamp. Earthquake misses out shortly on the OHKO against Arcanine. With better DVs (or a higher level), Machamp should be able to reach the OHKO, which would make a Ground-type TM much more helpful for this battle.

Golem (46): Golem OHKOs everyone with Earthquake.

Cloyster (44): Cloyster 2HKOs Growlithe and Ponyta with Clamp, 3HKOs Rapidash and 4HKOs Arcanine. It must be noted that Rapidash will outspeed and trap Cloyster due to its Ice type. You can use Withdraw to make the game re-apply the badge boosts and outspeed Rapidash this way.

Clefable (49): Clefable OHKOs Growlithe and Ponyta with Mega Punch. Clefable OHKOs Rapidash with Mega Kick. Clefable 2HKOs Arcanine with Mega Kick + Mega Punch. Rapidash and Arcanine outspeed, but even Arcanine's Fire Blast 3HKOs Clefable. Easy match-up.

I'm surprised to see that there hasn't been any boss fight where Clefable has not been able to 2HKO without the special TMs. I thought it would drop off in performance sooner, but it has been able to keep up very well with some minor hiccups. I'm holding out on saying "This should be S" because I need to test the Elite Four performance, but I would say it has performed like one so far.

Golem has the strongest attack in our team with Earthquake through level-up. It's sad though that it can't sweep the Rival, or Sabrina, but it's excellent against the other fights.

Machamp is starting to need a Ground-type TM to win consistently against bosses, and the battles that involve a Psychic-type can't be swept by it. Its slow speed becomes an issue.

Cloyster has been disappointing, but it has done decently. I expected it to perform better but it has shown somewhat lackluster performances against the important boss fights like the Rival or Sabrina. It mostly faces issues when it comes across a special attacker. The Gyarados match-up made me so sad... all that defense and Gyarados doesn't care because it just massacres Cloyster with Dragon Rage ;_; Btw, I'm trying Clamp because Surf is slightly stronger than a 2-hit Clamp, yet weaker than a 3-hit Clamp and further, so anything a 2-hit Clamp can defeat, Surf should as well

I'm going to continue with this on Sunday and try to finish everything.
 
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Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributor
here are more evaluations of the Pokemon I mentioned I have used in my last post

Definitely S-tier. Nidoking, by far, needed only Earthquake to be incredibly good and Seismic Toss and Bubble Beam also proved very useful (albeit not fundamentally needed). Thrash is great at route cleaning in the earlier portions of the game and its Horn Attack is probably one of the strongest moves in the early-game. Earthquake spam was often the tool that I needed to win matchups and Surf gave it HM utility and also proved very useful for beating things like Rhyhorn without wasting Earthquake PP. Nidoking is even good for Lance without Ice Beam, as it possesses the power to hit the Dragonair and Seismic Toss to make it through Dragonite.

All in all, Nidoking actually does not require many TMs, such as Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, and Rock Slide. However, those TMs can still improve its already-good matchups, but Nidoking is still incredibly good even without them and those are more of a luxury than a necessity.

TMs used: Earthquake, Bubble Beam, Seismic Toss

Brock(12): can Leer for a teammate, but is bad by itself

Blue #2 (18): Horn Attack 3HKOs Pidgeotto and Bulbasaur, OHKOs Abra, and 2HKOs Rattata

Misty(22): Seismic Toss 3HKOs Starmie, while Water Gun 3HKOs it. The best way to go here is have something else take care of Staryu and hope that Starmie never goes for Bubble Beam and instead goes for an X Defense

Blue #3 (25): Thrash OHKOs Raticate and Kadabra and 2HKOs the rest. Use Thrash after using Seismic Toss on Pidgeotto to KO it instantly

Lt. Surge(25): spam Horn Attack on Voltorb and Pikachu and then Thrash on Raichu. This fight is pretty trivial for Nidoking

Giovanni #1 (29): Bubble Beam kills Rocks and Thrash 3HKOs Kangaskhan with no issues

Blue #4 (30): Horn Attack 2HKOs Pidgeotto and OHKOs Kadabra. Bubble Beam OHKOs Growlithe. Gyarados is 3HKOed by Horn Attack and can beat you with Hydro Pump. Ivysaur is dealt with Thrash

Erika(31): Thrash 3HKOs everything. However, Victreebel will often put you to sleep and 3HKOs with Razor Leaf, so you may wanna avoid that. If you make a slight detour to get Earthquake TM, the matchup becomes a lot better, because EQ 2HKOs the Poison-types (and Seismic Toss / teammate can handle Tangela). Also note you outspeed everything, making EQ even more valuable here

Blue #5 (41): Earthquake OHKOs Alakazam and Growlithe and 2HKOs Venusaur. Pidgeot and Gyarados are hard to deal with, as you have to lock yourself in Thrash, however, Seismic Toss 3HKOs Pidgeot.

Giovanni #2 (42): Earthquake spam wins

Koga (43): Earthquake puts Weezing in red and OHKOs the rest.

Sabrina(43): Earthquake 2HKOs Venomoth and OHKOs the rest. Zam is faster and can set up Reflect, but Psybeam is not an OHKO, so if you skip Venomoth for safety measures, Nidoking can pmuch crush all the Psychics

Blaine(47): outspeeds and OHKOs everything with Earthquake

Giovanni #3(48): Surf OHKOs Dugtrio and Rhyhorn line and EQ OHKOs Nidos

Blue #6 (48): 3HKOs Pidgeot with Surf, which spams Agility. OHKOs Rhyhorn and Growlithe with Surf. Alakazam is OHKOed by Earthquake if it doesn't go for Reflect, but puts you in red with Psychic. Gyarados beats you and Venusaur looks like a 2HKO on rolls, but generally finishes you off

Lorelei(52): Earthquake OHKOs Jynx, 2HKOs Dewgong, and 4HKOs Slowbro. However, Slowbro often spams Earthquake and Dewgong doesn't OHKO you. Cloyster and Lapras are more difficult and you should avoid them

Bruno(52): Surf OHKOs Onix and 2HKOs Hitmons, while Earthquake 3HKOs Machamp. No problems here

Agatha(52): Earthquake OHKOs everything bar Golbat, but the Ghosts outspeed it. However, any turn without status means that you are killing something, at least

Lance(52): Earthquake 2HKOs Dragonair and Surf deals with Aerodactyl. DNite, while it spams Barrier, can be worn down by Seismic Toss spam

Champion Blue(52): Earthquake 2HKOs Arcanine and 3HKOs Venusaur, though that one is defeated if it derps enough (i.e. doesn't click Razor Leaf). Surf OHKOs Rhydon. You can also potentially beat Pidgeot if it spams Whirlwind


Also S-tier. While it is not as powerful as Nidoking, Nidoqueen still acheives the same results as Nidoking in most matchups. The differences lie mostly in the early-game, where Nidoran-F is slightly worse due to not having Horn Attack, but it's still doable, regardless. Another difference is that Nidoqueen sometimes misses some OHKOs that Nidoking does, but those are generally not fatal and Nidoqueen still manages to OHKO a lot of things. All in all, while Nidoking is clearly superior, Nidoqueen is not that far off and I do not think they should be different tiers.

TMs used: Earthquake, Bubble Beam, Seismic Toss, Mega Punch (deleted it for Body Slam at level 23, so perhaps not really needed)
Brock(12): useless, at most can spam Growl to make it easier for a teammate

Blue #2 (20): Mega Punch 2HKOs Pidgeotto and OHKOs Rattata and Abra. Bulbasaur is put in range for Scratch

Misty(22): 2HKOed by Starmie's Bubble Beam and 3HKOed by Starmie's Water Gun. Seismic Toss is arguably the only way for Nidoqueen to do damage here, similarly to Nidoking

Blue #3 (24): Body Slam OHKOs Kadabra and 2HKOs the rest with no problems

Lt. Surge(25): Body Slam OHKOs Pikachu and 2HKOs the rest. No issues here

Giovanni #1 (30): Bubble Beam kills Rocks and Body Slam 4HKOs Kanga with no issues

Blue #4 (30): Body Slam OHKOs Kadabra and 2HKOs the rest. If you do not get Sand-attacked by Pidgeotto, you pmuch win, unless Gyarados crits with Hydro Pump (normally a 2HKO)

Erika(31): Body Slam 3HKOs everything, with Victreebel being the only real threat due to Sleep Powder + Razor Leaf 3HKOing. If you sidetrack to get EQ TM, the matchup becomes better, as the Poisons are 2HKOed. Regardless, if you have Body Slam, you can sweep with it just fine, just you need to get lucky with Sleep Powder and *maybe* heal once if you take two Razor Leafs

Blue #5 (41): Body Slam 3HKOs Pidgeot. Avoid Gyarados. EQ OHKOs Growlithe and Alakazam, with the latter outspeeding and going for Confusion, and 2HKOing Venusaur, which is not a threat if it picks anything but Razor Leaf

Giovanni #2 (41): Earthquake spam wins

Koga(42): EQ 2HKOs Weezing and OHKOs the rest

Sabrina(43): Earthquake 2HKOs Venomoth and OHKOs the rest. Note that Zam is faster, but doesn't OHKO with Psybeam

Blaine(47): EQ OHKOs everything, with Arcanine being rolls (not like it matters)

Giovanni #3 (47): EQ OHKOs Nidos and Surf OHKOs the rest. Dugtrio outspeeds, but is not an issue

Blue #6 (48): beats Pidgeot (spams Agility), Growlithe, and Rhyhorn. EQ 2HKOs Venusaur and you beat it as long as it doesn't go for Razor Leaf

Lorelei(52): Earthquake 3HKOs Dewgong, but if it goes for Rest, you beat it. OHKOs Jynx and Seismic Toss spam can beat Slowbro if it spams Amnesia and not Water Gun

Bruno(52): Surf OHKOs Onix and 2HKOs Hitmons, while EQ 2HKOs Machamp. No issues

Agatha(53): SToss 3HKOs Golbat, while EQ OHKOs the rest. Gengar are faster, but you are killing the if they don't hax you

Lance(53): Earthquake 2HKOs Dragonair, Surf 2HKOs Aerodactyl, and Seismic Toss 4HKOs Dragonite. Gyarados is 2HKOed by Thunderbolt, but it OHKOs with Hydro Pump. All in all, Nidoqueen can take out many of Lance's Pokemon, even without Ice Beam, though the move, in particular, can probably speed up the fight against Dragonite

Champion Blue(53): beats Rhydon and Arcanine easily. Venusaur is 3HKOed by Earthquake and is a win, as long as it doesn't go for Razor Leaf. Pidgeot is also a win if it spams Whirlwind (you can spam Seismic Toss on it)


For the purposes of testing Wigglytuff, I tried not to teach Psychic and some other elemental TMs (though its Special stat is terrible anyways) to see where Wigglytuff fails and thus see where TMs are necessary.

I think we can all agree that Jigglypuff, for most parts, is outclassed by Clefairy, beyond the fact it's easier to find. Wigglytuff's biggest issues are that it's rather slow and that it will often not OHKO most of the major opponents.

It's already been established that Jigglypuff was misplaced, so it does not belong to D-tier whatsoever. As for what tier I'd give Jigglypuff the way I used it, my personal stance would be B or possibly A. I think it's worth mentioning that Wigglytuff is one of the best Pokemon to use against Misty's Starmie if you teach it Seismic Toss (by the way, Clefable also learns this and I did not factor it in my evaluation when I used it, so the error is on my part. This could perhaps play some role if we decide to put it in S). It is also in the Fast experience group, which means it will be easy to grind, so perhaps this should play a role in its tiering. Though I am not sure how I am supposed to weigh in its reliance on Sing; on one hand, sleep is broken, so anything with access to it is generally getting a bonus in my eyes. On the other hand, I definitely felt that Wigglytuff had to put things to sleep often in order to beat them safely. Longfellow often compared Jigglypuff to Snorlax, so if he wants to jump in and make a comment on my evaluations, he's more than free to.

Do note that this likely should not be considered a full nomination by me (yet). Wigglytuff has a huge movepool and, even with its awful Special, it may perhaps be able to do things with BoltBeam and Psychic. My evaluation is based on the scenario in which you give it the TMs below:

TMs used: Mega Punch, Seismic Toss, Bubble Beam

Blue #2 (17): Mega Punch 3HKOs Pidgeotto, 2HKOs Bulbasaur, and OHKOs the rest. Switch out against Abra if you have accuracy drops, since anything can take on it.

Misty(22): Seismic Toss 2HKOs Staryu and 3HKOs Starmie. Bar repeated crits, Wigglytuff is not threatened by Starmie at all. Even then, you can use Sing and open it to attacks. Great matchup

Blue #3 (25): Mega Punch puts Pidgeotto and Ivysaur in range for Seismic Toss and OHKOs the rest.

Lt. Surge(25): Mega Punch 2HKOs Raichu and OHKOs the rest. Thunderbolt 3HKOs it. Seismic Toss can be used to 3HKO Raichu, in case you get Growled or you don't want to rely on Mega Punch. You can put Raichu to sleep with Sing to make the matchup safer

Giovanni #1 (30): Bubble Beam kills Rocks and Strength 3HKOs Kangaskhan.

Blue #4 (30): Strength 2HKOs Ivysaur and Pidgeotto, OHKOs Growlithe and Kadabra and is a 2HKO on rolls on Gyarados. Beyond Gyara, no issues

Erika(31): Strength 2HKOs Victreebel, but it is faster than Wigglytuff and can cripple it with Wrap and Sleep Powder and also 3HKOs with Razor Leaf. Best way to beat it is through Sing. Tangela seems to be a 2HKO, but it doesn't do anything to you anyways. Vileplume is 3HKOed by Strength, but beyond Sleep Powder, it does not threaten you at all and you can just put it to sleep with Sing anyways

Blue #5 (41): Strength 2HKOs Pidgeot on rolls, 2HKOs Growlithe and Zam and 3HKOs Gyarados and Venusaur. The best way to perform well here is spread sleep

Giovanni #2 (42): Strength 2HKOs Nidorino, 3HKOs Kangaskhan, and 4HKOs Nidoqueen. Bubble Beam OHKOs Rhyhorn

Koga(42): Strength 2HKOs Koffing and 3HKOs the rest. Smokescreen can make this matchup a luckfest. Sing can help against Muk and Weezing

Sabrina(43): Strength OHKOs Kadabra and 2HKOs the rest. Zam can be annoying, so put it to sleep with Sing

Blaine(47): Bubble Beam 2HKOs the unevolved stuff, 3HKOs Rapidash, and 4HKOs Arcanine. Realistically speaking, only Tail Whip + physical moves deal any damage to you. You can also just spread sleep with Sing anyways

Giovanni #3 (48): Bubble Beam OHKOs Rhyhorn, 2HKOs Rhydon, and 3HKOs Nidos. Dugtrio is OHKOed by Strength. The only thing Wigglytuff has to fear here is critical hits, otherwise, it's good to go here

Blue #6 (48): 3HKOs Pidgeot with Strength. Rhyhorn dies to Bubble Beam. Gyarados and Alakazam can be put to sleep and be defeated by Strength spam. Strength also almost OHKOs Growlithe. Venusaur generally finishes you off with Razor Leaf, though if it doesn't, Sing + Strength can also help against it

Lorelei(52): Strength seems to be a 3HKO on Dewgong. Growls in this mathcup much ruin it, though you can resort to Seismic Toss, which 3HKOs Cloyster and Jynx, 4HKOs Slowbro, and 5HKOs Lapras, which you can pair with Sing for safer cleaning. But yeah, the matchup is far from ideal

Bruno(52): Bubble Beam OHKOs Onix and 3HKOs Hitmons, though Lee will deal heavy damage to you with Fighting STAB or even OHKO you. Machamp can be beaten with Sing + Seismic Toss (since it will spam X Defend often), but it threatens with Fighting STAB if it hits

Agatha(52): Seismic Toss 3HKOs everything and you can use Sing to make it easier, though Golbat doesn't need Sing to be defeated

Lance(52): Sing + Seismic Toss can help weaken Gyarados and Dragonite. Strength 3HKOs Dragonair and Bubble Beam 3HKOs Aerodactyl. However, landing Sing here is crucial, as you will be taking damage constantly

Champion Blue(52): Bubble Beam 2HKOs Rhydon. The rest have to be put to sleep with Sing and then be worn down by Strength or Seismic Toss, with SToss often being a 4HKO at worst.


We all know the infamous DUX that has boosted Exp. and can be taught Cut and Fly, thus making it into a fine HM slave. Furthermore, it can be an active partner (in addition to being an HM slave) and it actually performs quite well before the E4, especially with just Slash. I also used SD + Fly sometimes and that proved to be a powerful combination.

However, Dux's major flaw is that it's nearly useless at the E4. It rarely gets to KO something and its bulk proves problematic there. Furthermore, its Slash is not a guaranteed crit, as it's around 93% chance to crit with it (granted, that is very close to 100%, so maybe that shouldn't be considered a flaw at all). Personally, I wouldn't mind dropping Farfetch'd to C-tier, though perhaps boosted Exp. + being an active HM slave can push it to B-tier, as those two are pretty huge, in my opinion. I will let Drumstick decide based on logs:

TMs used: Double-Edge before forgetting it for Slash. Note that I had Cut and Fly in the moveset

Blue #3 (25): +2 Fury Attack pretty much nukes everything. If you TMed Body Slam, it becomes even easier

Lt. Surge(26): Body Slam OHKOs Voltorb and Pikachu and 2HKOs Raichu, though Raichu outspeeds and OHKOs with Thunderbolt. If you go the Fury Attack + SD route, you will need 3 to KO Voltorb, 2 to KO Pikachu, and 4 to KO Raichu

Giovanni #1 (30): struggles with Rocks, as it needs to spam SD to get past them. +2 DEdge 2HKOs Kangaskhan, though watch out for Comet Punch

Blue #4 (30): Double-Edge 2HKOs Gyarados and Pidgeotto and OHKOs Kadabra and Growlithe. Fly OHKOs Ivyasur. You will need to heal if you want to sweep

Erika(30): outspeeds and OHKOs everything with +2 Fly. Only note that disobediance can be annoying if you get to a level higher than 30

Blue #5 (41): Slash 2HKOs Pidgeot and Gyarados, though the latter can beat you with Hydro Pump, and OHKOs Growlithe and Zam, though the latter is faster. Venusaur is OHKOed by +2 Fly

Giovanni #2 (41): struggles with Rhyhorn, but Slash 2HKOs the rest.

Koga(43): Slash 3HKOs Weezing and 2HKOs the rest. Bar Smokescreen, no issues

Sabrina(43): Fly OHKOs Venomoth and crit Slash OHKOs the rest (saying crit cause the chance of landing a crit for Farfetch'd with the move is around 93%), though Zam and Kadabra are faster, so they may be able to 2HKO it each

Blaine(47): Slash crit OHKOs Ponyta and Growlithe and 2HKOs the others. However, Arcanine and Rapidash outspeed it and Arcanine can even KO it, though it can also derp enough for Dux to win

Giovanni #3 (47): Slash spam can potentially get past Rhyhorn, though you will take lots of Tail Whips in the process. Slash crit OHKOs Dugtrio and 2HKOs Nidos. Rhydon is a hopeless situation

Blue #6 (48): Slash crit 2HKOs Pidgeot and Gyarados (the latter hits hard with Pump, however) and OHKOs Alakazam and Growlithe, though the former is faster and can also hit hard with STAB. Venusaur is OHKOed by +2 Fly and doesn't threaten you much

Lorelei (51): Slash crit seems to be a 3HKO on Dewgong. It only beats Slowbro by 4HKOing Slash with it, as the rest tank its Slashes or just KO it; Jynx OHKOs with Ice Punch, Lapras OHKOs with Blizzard, and Cloyster takes hits well. Dewgong 2HKOs with Aurora Beam

Bruno(51): +2 Fly OHKOs Hitmons and puts Machamp in red. However, it has to spam Slash on Onix for a long time before getting past them and it can also take damage from any member, making its performance somewhat shaky

Agatha(52): +2 Fly 2HKOs Gengar and OHKOs Haunter. Slash 2HKOs Golbat and Arbok if a crit. However, due to Dux's low HP, Night Shade proves fatal here, so you are very unlkely to sweep

Lance(52): can't do much here, because it will be taking heavy damage from Hyper Beam

Champion Blue(52): +2 Fly 2HKOs Venusaur, but Farfetch'd is pretty useless against the rest, unless incredibly lucky or something like this


There isn't much to say about Haunter that you cannot say about Gengar. Link to Gengar post. The differences are that Haunter is a lot more reliant on Hypnosis than Gengar to beat things safely and that it often misses some OHKOs and 2HKOs that Gengar doesn't. So I think B-tier is fine for Haunter. I tried comparing my logs from both to come to this conclusion

TMs used: Psychic, Mega Drain

Erika(31): Psychic 2HKOs everything and Haunter is not threatened at all. Doesn't worry about Wrap either

Blue #5 (41): Psychic and Night Shade 3HKO Pidgeot and 2HKO Growlithe. Psychic 2HKOs Venusaur and 3HKOs Gyarados and Night Shade 3HKOs Zam. Put anything that threatens you to sleep with Hypnosis

Giovanni #2 (41): Mega Drain OHKOs Rhyhorn and Psychic spam beat the rest

Koga(42): Psychic OHKOs Koffing and 2HKOs the rest

Sabrina(43): Night Shade 2HKOs Mr. Mime and 3HKOs the other Psychic-types, with Psychic 2HKOing Venomoth. You outspeed all of them, so put Kadabra and Zam to sleep so they don't attack you

Blaine(47): Night Shade + Psychic KOs Growlithe and Ponyta and Night Shade 3HKOs Rapidash and 4HKOs Arcanine. Put the evolved ones to sleep to make the matchup safer

Giovanni #3 (48): Mega Drain OHKOs Rhyhorn and 2HKOs Rhydon and Dugtrio. Nidoqueen is 2HKOed by Psychic and Nidoking is OHKOed. Put Dugtrio to sleep, as it OHKOs with Dig.

Blue #6 (48): beats Pidgeot, Growlithe, Venusaur, and Rhyhorn with no problems. Gyarados and Zam can be 4HKOed and 3HKOed with Night Shade and be put to sleep with Sing

Lorelei (51): In general, the matchup is doable with Sing + Night Shade / Mega Drain, with Night Shade generally being the same damage output as Wigglytuff's Seismic Toss (read Wigglytuff logs, as too lazy to c/p). Hypnosis helps greatly here, though Slowbro and Lapras derp on you.

Bruno(52): Mega Drain kills Onix and Psychic kills the rest

Agatha(52): Psychic 2HKOs everything and only Gengar #2 outspeeds it. Still, putting the Ghosts to sleep with Hypnosis is a great idea

Lance(52): Night Shade 4HKOs Gyarados and you should put it to sleep with Hypnosis. The rest do not threaten it at all, as they have a Psychic status move or are Aerodactyl, so you can wear them down safely.

Champion Blue(53): Other than Rhydon, which is defeated by Mega Drain, you generally need to resort to Hypnosis + Night Shade + Psychic to beat anything, other than maybe Venusaur. Should you be lucky enough, however, Haunter is going to take out whatever it faces


Arcanine, like most Fire-types, is plagued by a lack of Flamethrower or a good Fire STAB at early levels. For the purposes of this test, I evolved my Growlithe immediately (lol, waiting for Flamethrower at level 50). Truth to be told, I used Dig and Bite a lot more than I used Ember, which just shows how bad the move is, for most parts.

However, with Dig, Arcanine performs reasonably well. After all, 110 Attack + 100 BP move should equate to something. Even Bite sometimes proved very useful, but not as much as Dig. I'd say C-tier is fine for Arcanine. It theoritically could make it to lower B with Dig, but Dig is so contested, so I think C-tier is fine

TMs used: Fire Blast, Dig
Giovanni #1 (29): Dig 2HKOs Rocks, while Ember 4HKOs Kangaskhan

Blue #4 (29): Dig OHKOs Growlithe and Bite OHKOs Kadabra and 2HKOs Pidgeotto. Ember deals with Ivysaur. Bite also 3HKOs Gyarados, but it 2HKOs with Hydro Pump

Erika(29): Ember 4HKOs Victreebel, 2HKOs Tangela, and 3HKOs Vileplume Wrap + poisoning may wear it down, so prepare a potion just in case, but you may not need it. Worth mentioning that, at level 31 (the 29 one was before I fought all trainers), Dig 2HKOs the Poisons

Blue #5 (41): Bite 3HKOs Pidgeot. Do not bother with Gyara, as it 2HKOs with Hydro Pump. Dig OHKOs Zam and Growlithe. Ember 3HKOs Venusaur

Giovanni #2 (41): Dig 2HKOs Nidoqueen, 3HKOs Kanga and OHKOs the rest

Koga(42): Dig OHKOs Koffing and 2HKOs the rest. Only watch out for Minimize on Muk

Sabrina(43): Bite OHKOs Kadabra and 2HKOs Mr. Mime. Bite + Dig KO Zam and Venomoth, though Zam has to not go for Reflect turn one

Arcanine(47): Dig 2HKOs Arcanine and OHKOs the rest

Giovanni(47): Dig 2HKOs Rhyhorn, Nidoqueen, and Rhydon and OHKOs Nidoking. Fire Blast OHKOs Dugtrio

Blue #6 (47): Fire Blast 2HKOs Pidgeot and Venusaur (Venusaur can be finished off by Ember), while Dig OHKOs Growlithe and 2HKOs Rhyhorn. It normally 2HKOs Zam, but Reflect will turn it into a 3HKO

Lorelei(52): Fire Blast 2HKOs Dewgong and Cloyster and OHKOs Jynx. I'd not bother with Slowbro, unless you want to rely on crits, and Lapras.

Bruno(52): Fire Blast OHKOs Hitmons and 2HKOs Machamp, while Dig 2HKOs Onix with no Defense boosts

Agatha(52): Outspeeds and OHKOs Gengar #1 and Haunter with Dig, almost OHKOs Gengar #2 with Dig, 2HKOs Arbok with Dig, and 2HKOs Golbat with Fire Blast

Lance(52): at most 2HKOs Dragonair with Dig, but nothing else worthy of logging

Champion Blue(52): Fire Blast seems to be a 2HKO on Pidgeot. FBlast + Ember KO Venusaur. Dig 2HKOs Arcanine and seems to be around a 3-4HKO on Rhydon. Zam is 2HKOed if there's no Reflect, but it will often damage you hard or even beat you


Definitely the most viable Flying-type, in my opinion. It hits so damn hard with Drill Peck and Tri Attack that, outside of the E4, you are often OHKOing things, occassionally 2HKOing things, and rarely 3HKOing anything. My Doduo, for the record, had 11 IVs in Attack. I checked Drumstick's logs and his Dodrio didn't hit as hard as mine. I asked him privately if he knew its IVs, but he, unfortunately, didn't.

The way my Dodrio performed, it definitely has a case for A. However, I am open for someone to also give this a try, preferably with a lower Attack IV, and prove me wrong, as I do realize that my Attack IV was rather high and may have contributed to my Dodrio hitting hard.

TMs used: Tri Attack, Double-Edge
Giovanni #1 (30): Tri Attack 3HKOs Kangaskhan, which 3HKOs with Bite, so you need it to derp to win safely. Don't bother with the rocks

Blue #4 (30): Tri Attack OHKOs Kadabra and Growlithe and 2HKOs Gyarados and Pidgeotto, with Drill Peck OHKOing Ivysaur. Note that Hydro Pump almost OHKOs Doduo, so you have to rely on Gyarados not clicking that move

Erika(31): outspeeds and OHKO everything with Drill Peck

Blue #5 (41): Drill Peck 2HKOs Pidgeot and Gyarados and OHKOs the rest. Gyarados 2HKOs with Hydro Pump, but is otherwise not a threat

Giovanni #2 (41): Drill Peck 2HKOs everything bar Rhyhorn

Koga(42): Tri Attack 3HKOs Weezing and 2HKOs the rest. Only watch out for Smokescreen

Sabrina(43): outspeeds and OHKOs everything with Drill Peck

Blaine(47): Drill Peck 2HKOs Rapidash, 2HKOs Arcanine after recoil (though if no recoil, use Double-Edge if you have it) and OHKOs the rest

Giovanni #3 (48): OHKOs Dugtrio and 2HKOs Nidos with Drill Peck. Can also muscle through Rhyhorn line, but will take some time

Blue #6 (48): Drill Peck 2HKOs Pidgeot, Gyarados, and Venusaur, OHKOs Growlithe, and OHKOs Zam on rolls. I'd not bother with Rhyhorn. Note that Gyara 2HKOs with Hydro Pump

Lorelei(52): Drill Peck + DEdge 2HKO Dewgong, though it 2HKOs with Aurora Beam. Jynx is OHKOed by Drill Peck on rolls, with Double-Edge guaranteeing an OHKO. You can also spam Tri Attack / Drill Peck on Slowbro and hope it doesn't attack you repeatedly

Bruno(52): Drill Peck OHKOs Hitmons and 2HKOs Machamp

Agatha(52): Drill Peck 2HKOs everything, with Haunter almost being OHKOed. In addition, you outspeed everything, improving the matchup against Ghosts. Still, keep in mind Night Shade will 3HKO you, so the combo of Hypnosis + Night Shade can be fatal, but less likely than for slower Pokemon

Lance(53): Drill Peck 2HKOs Dragonair and 3HKOs DNite and Gyara. Dragonair 3HKO with Hyper Beam, so you are beating those, though you are unlikely to also beat DNite and Gyarados is generally also beating it

Champion Blue(53): Set up an agility and 2HKO Pidgeot with Drill Peck. Zam is OHKOed on rolls and a guaranteed OHKO with Double-Edge. DEDge 2HKOs Arcanine and Gyarados on rolls, though it will take lots of damage against them. Venusaur is outsped and 2HKOed by Drill Peck and won't threaten you if healthy enough


B-tier. Traded Exp. + Surf + STAB Ice Beam should be speaking for itself. If you want a good idea as to how fast it levels up, I managed to evolve my level 30 Seel within the first (well, second) floor of Silph Co. Worth mentioning that it can be taught Strength, which gives it some HM utility with Surf (granted, you need a Surfer to get a traded Seel). Worth mentioning that Yellow gives you a Dewgong directly.

But yeah, there isn't much to say about traded Seel. Traded Exp. allows it to level up fast and Surf + Ice Beam give it reasonable matchups, generally

Blue #5 (41): Ice Beam OHKOs Pidgeot, with Aurora Beam 2HKOing, and 3HKOs Gyara, with Aurora Beam 4HKOing. It and Aurora Beam also 2HKO Venusaur. Surf OHKOs Growlithe and 2HKOs Zam on rolls

Giovanni #2 (41): Surf OHKOs the Water-weak ones and 2HKOs the rest

Sabrina(43): Strength 2HKOs Mr. Mime and Surf 3HKOs Alakazam and 2HKOs the rest. Chances are, you are beating everything up to Zam

Blaine(43): spam Surf and you win

Giovanni #3 (48): Surf

Blue #6 (48): Ice Beam OHKOs Pidgeot, while Aurora Beam 2HKOs. Surf kills Rhyhorn and Growlithe. Zam is 3HKOed by Strength. Venusaur is 2HKOed by any Ice STAB, while Ice Beam 3HKOs Gyarados and Aurora Beam 4HKOs instead. Venusaur loses when not going for Razor Leaf

Lorelei(51): Surf 2HKOs Jynx on rolls and 4HKOs Cloyster. As a whole, not efficient, but Dewgong is not super threatened and thus can take down Cloyster, Slowbro, and Jynx sooner or later

Bruno(52): Surf 2HKOs Machamp and OHKOs the rest. Note that Lee is faster and 2HKOs with Jump Kick, while Machamp almost OHKOs with Submission, though you are still beating 4/5 of his team and Machamp is likely gonna derp, as it's also slower, so you need to just avoid one Submission

Agatha(52): Ice Beam OHKOs Golbat and 2HKOs Haunter and Arbok. Gengr #1 is 3HKOed by Surf, while #2 is 4HKOed by Surf. It has the same issues as other Waters against the Ghosts, as it's outsped by everything

Lance(52): Ice Beam OHKOs everything bar Gyarados. Dragonite and Aerodactyl outspeed and 2HKO with Hyper Beam, but if they do anything else with no crits, you are safe. Note that Aurora Beam 2HKOs stuff instead

Champion Blue(52): Ice Beam 2HKOs Pidgeot and Surf OHKOs Rhydon and 2HKOs Arcanine. Venusaur is 2HKOed by Ice Beam, but Dewgong won't be beating it


I am doing a run with Butterfree / Flareon / Kingler / Lickitung. I am likely gonna post once I am done and analyze their matchups.

e: for Nidoqueen, it's worth mentioning that RB players get access to a traded Nidoran-F. However, they need to keep around an unevolved Nidoran-M (which doesn't look like the end of the world).
 
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Yeah, A/B-tier makes sense to me for Wigglytuff. My E4 runs with it were at a higher level than suggested so I don't have a great feel for how it performs there. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, it reaches basically identical attacking/defensive benchmarks as Snorlax if given the same exp. investment (and is significantly faster, though still slow), so that should give some calibration on how to tier them against each other.

As for other moveset possibilities, Hyper Beam is kinda broken, turning a lot of 3/2HKOs into 2/OHKOs (in particular it's really nice to get OHKOs on Zam). Twave is a less powerful but more reliable status than Sing. Psychic/Tbolt/Ice Beam/Blizzard are only situationally useful due to the bad Special, but a lot of those situations are in the Elite Four, so maybe that can make a difference for Jigglypuff's otherwise limited E4.
 
As for Hyper Beam, Ryota mentioned he wasn't too keen on earlier, and I agree with him. Sure, it's a broken physical move, but said broken physical move not only involves dropping a huge chunk of change you first won't get until the Poke Flute, and the TM takes at least 10 minutes of real time buying coins.

I'd say it's a nice bonus for a mon but if said mon outright needs the move and doesn't get it via level (like Gyarados and Aerodactyl do) it shouldn't be considered too highly in tiering something.
 
Fair enough, I think I missed whatever post Ryota said that in, so thanks for bringing me up to speed. Buying coins 50 a pop is one of the more ridiculous QoL problems in RBY lol. I personally would go in for Hyper Beam if I think it makes a big difference in a Pokémon's performance (Normal-types/physmons)—to me, it's a similar investment to trawling around for a rare catch—but I can totally understand not wanting to and not making it the standard for tiering.
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributor
Fair enough, I think I missed whatever post Ryota said that in, so thanks for bringing me up to speed. Buying coins 50 a pop is one of the more ridiculous QoL problems in RBY lol. I personally would go in for Hyper Beam if I think it makes a big difference in a Pokémon's performance (Normal-types/physmons)—to me, it's a similar investment to trawling around for a rare catch—but I can totally understand not wanting to and not making it the standard for tiering.
I think if something is really broken with Hyper Beam (like Snorlax, I'd assume, that thing would basically OHKO every non-resist lol), it could be mentioned in a write-up, though I don't think it should be considered for the Pokemon's tier itself

e: I know you said you are ok with it not being considered, just pointing out for clarity's sake
 
I was wondering today whether I was really correct to say that 10 minutes of buying coins was a similar investment to searching for a Pokémon, so I started to calculate how long it might take on average to catch stuff and then that's how I spent my whole Halloween lol

What affects how long it takes to find a Pokémon: route density, the mon's encounter slot, whether you can use your bike, whether you can repel.

Assuming about 12 seconds to run from a wrong encounter and each step takes about 0.2778 seconds, you can come up with a formula like this:

(0.2778s.*[number of steps till an encounter] + 12s.)*[number of encounters till correct poke]

which will approximate how long it takes (not perfectly, but close enough).
For the calculations on number of steps till an encounter and number of encounters till correct poke, I did an optimistic and pessimistic version of the calculation.
The optimistic version is like a "median" case where half the time, it'll take longer, and half the time, it'll take shorter. For instance, for a 10% encounter, it assumes it'll take you 6 encounters to get one.
For the pessimistic version, I just assumed that for a 10% encounter, you'd get it on your tenth encounter. I think the pessimistic version is closer to what a player would be looking for, since you kinda want to know if you might be sitting there for twenty minutes getting unlucky (of course, you can definitely get unluckier than this calculation, too!)

I did variations on the above formula for other stuff like whether you're on bike, using repel, etc. I won't go through all the math since it's all very rough anyway and anyone who would want to take this seriously a step further would be advised to just redo all the calcs more precisely.

Optimistic time listed first, pessimistic time listed second, I put in italics times that I think are unreasonable (basically: do I have to spend more than 10 minutes looking for a Pokémon), although that's subjective of course.

The amount Repel affects some Pokémon vs. others can be very different, and this depends on whether you can use the bike and how dense the encounters are. This is why repelling for the Dugtrio in Diglett Cave is so much more effective than repelling for high-level Tentacool in the sea routes.

Pokémon route densities can be found here. It took me a while to find this (doesn't seem to be documented on Bulbapedia or Serebii), so I'm linking it here so I don't forget lol

Finally, these times do not count how long it takes to actually catch the Pokémon except in the cases of Abra and the Safari mons, as explained below.

---

RB Pidgey, Rattata (50%, Route 1): 0m14; 0m30
RB version-common Nidoran (45%, Route 22): 0m16; 0m33
RB version-rare Nidoran (5%, Route 22): 3m01; 5m01
RB version-common bug* (45%, Viridian Forest): 0m21; 0m46
RB version-rare bug* (5%, Viridian Forest): 3m35; 6m58
RB Pikachu (5%, Viridian Forest): 3m35; 6m58
Y Pidgeotto (1%, Viridian Forest): 20m31; 34m49

RB Jigglypuff (10%, Route 3): 1m27; 2m36
Paras (15%, Mt. Moon): 1m08; 2m15
Y Clefairy (10%, Mt. Moon): 1m42; 3m12
RB Clefairy (6%, Mt. Moon): 3m07; 5m08

RB Abra (yolo Great Ball**, 15%, Route 24): 1m23; 2m46
RB Abra (yolo Poké Ball**, 15%, Route 24): 3m15; 5m31
Dugtrio (5%, Diglett's Cave, no repel, with bike): 2m52; 4m36
Dugtrio (5%, Diglett's Cave, repel, with bike): 0m27, 0m39

RB Safari rarity (4%, see below***): 37m10, 53m39

Tentacool (10% for lv30+, no repel, sea routes): 2m12; 4m22
Tentacool (10% for lv30+, repel, sea routes): 1m48; 2m35
Tentacool (5% for lv35+, no repel, sea routes): 4m45; 8m43
Tentacool (5% for lv35+, repel, sea routes): ; 3m35; 5m10
Tentacool (1% for lv40, no repel, sea routes): 24m56; 43m37
Tentacool (1% for lv40, repel, sea routes): 12m56; 25m51


RB Seafoam rarity**** (4%, no repel, with bike): 4m07; 6m30
RB Seafoam rarity**** (4%, repel, with bike): 1m07; 1m37

*Assuming we're only catching Caterpie/Weedle and not the attackless Kakuna/Metapod
**Assuming (very broadly) that yolo Great Balls succeed about 2/3rds of the time and yolo Poké Balls succeed about 1/3rd of the time. The actual percentages are a little less, but Abra also has a chance to fail Teleport and give you another shot, and I didn't feel like calculating all of that out more precisely
***Safari rarities include Chansey, Kangaskhan, Tauros, Pinsir, and Scyther. Thankfully, each of these Pokémon can be caught at 4% and not only 1%. Safari Zone is complicated. For the purposes of these rough calculations, I assumed a 1/5 chance per encounter of catching the rare Pokémon (the actual odds are pretty close for each of the Pokémon I looked at), and that each attempt would add about 12 seconds (I just pulled that number out of nowhere; its effect is negligible). There are ways of making these odds better that I didn't calculate; jellsprout made a post in the last thread with more details. It sounds like you can get the times down to the lower double-digits of minutes.
****4% Seafoam rarities include lv38 Dewgong, lv39 Seadra (R), lv39 Slowbro (R), lv39 Kingler (B), lv39 Golduck (B). Like with the Safari pokes, each 1% mon can be caught on a different floor at 4%. Yellow doesn't have any of these extra high-level rarities, but it is worth noting it gives somewhat better Surfing odds for high-level Tentacool, with 40% for lv30+, 20% for lv35+, and 5% for lv40.

Buying 500 coins: 0m47
Buying 5500 coins: 8m37
Buying 9999 coins: 15m40

One turn: about 0m05 to 0m10

The turns you "waste" by switch training Magikarp: about 12m54 (86 enemy Pokémon, getting you from Mt. Moon to just after Vermilion City) (but you could make this faster by only using it on stronger trainers/bosses)
The turns you "waste" by switch training Abra: about 1m48 (12 enemy Pokémon, getting you from Route 24 to partway through Route 25)

Beating a Jr. Trainer with two OHKOs: 0m40
Beating the same Jr. Trainer with an underleveled Pokémon I'm raising (lv15 Lapras with Surf vs. level 29 Nidoran/Nidorino): 1m25
Beating the same Jr. Trainer with the switch method to raise a Pokémon: 0m58

Catching a Pidgey with one Great Ball: 0m22

Going to the Power Plant to catch Zapdos: 2m29 (incidentally, this is where TM25 Thunder and the farthest-flung Rare Candy are too)

Grinding Dewgong from lv40 to lv41 in Pokémon Mansion: 4m37 (suggesting that level grinding, at least by the time you reach endgame, is a pretty drastic time investment)

Walking from Vermilion to Cerulean through Underground Tunnel (Pokémon Center to Pokémon Center): 0m53
Biking the same path: 0m39
Flying there: 0m10

tl;dr 10 minutes of buying coins (well, really 8 and a half minutes) is definitely more of a time investment than most reasonable Pokémon catching.

Even the majority of rarer Pokémon can, on average, be encountered well within 10 minutes, usually within 5. The worst exceptions are the Safari Zone Pokémon
Lv35+ Tentacool is reasonable; Lv40 is not (in RB)
The high-level Seafoam mons (most importantly Seadra, Slowbro, Kingler, and Golduck) can be encountered very fast and easily with bike and repel
 
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I was wondering today whether I was really correct to say that 10 minutes of buying coins was a similar investment to searching for a Pokémon, so I started to calculate how long it might take on average to catch stuff and then that's how I spent my whole Halloween lol

What affects how long it takes to find a Pokémon: route density, the mon's encounter slot, whether you can use your bike, whether you can repel.

Assuming about 12 seconds to run from a wrong encounter and each step takes about 2.778 seconds, you can come up with a formula like this:

(0.2778s.*[number of steps till an encounter] + 12s.)*[number of encounters till correct poke]

which will approximate how long it takes (not perfectly, but close enough).
For the calculations on number of steps till an encounter and number of encounters till correct poke, I did an optimistic and pessimistic version of the calculation.
The optimistic version is like a "median" case where half the time, it'll take longer, and half the time, it'll take shorter. For instance, for a 10% encounter, it assumes it'll take you 6 encounters to get one.
For the pessimistic version, I just assumed that for a 10% encounter, you'd get it on your tenth encounter. I think the pessimistic version is closer to what a player would be looking for, since you kinda want to know if you might be sitting there for twenty minutes getting unlucky (of course, you can definitely get unluckier than this calculation, too!)

I did variations on the above formula for other stuff like whether you're on bike, using repel, etc. I won't go through all the math since it's all very rough anyway and anyone who would want to take this seriously a step further would be advised to just redo all the calcs more precisely.

Optimistic time listed first, pessimistic time listed second, I put in italics times that I think are unreasonable (basically: do I have to spend more than 10 minutes looking for a Pokémon), although that's subjective of course.

The amount Repel affects some Pokémon vs. others can be very different, and this depends on whether you can use the bike and how dense the encounters are. This is why repelling for the Dugtrio in Diglett Cave is so much more effective than repelling for high-level Tentacool in the sea routes.

Pokémon route densities can be found here. It took me a while to find this (doesn't seem to be documented on Bulbapedia or Serebii), so I'm linking it here so I don't forget lol

Finally, these times do not count how long it takes to actually catch the Pokémon except in the cases of Abra and the Safari mons, as explained below.

---

RB Pidgey, Rattata (50%, Route 1): 0m14; 0m30
RB version-common Nidoran (45%, Route 22): 0m16; 0m33
RB version-rare Nidoran (5%, Route 22): 3m01; 5m01
RB version-common bug* (45%, Viridian Forest): 0m21; 0m46
RB version-rare bug* (5%, Viridian Forest): 3m35; 6m58
RB Pikachu (5%, Viridian Forest): 3m35; 6m58
Y Pidgeotto (1%, Viridian Forest): 20m31; 34m49

RB Jigglypuff (10%, Route 3): 1m27; 2m36
Paras (15%, Mt. Moon): 1m08; 2m15
Y Clefairy (10%, Mt. Moon): 1m42; 3m12
RB Clefairy (6%, Mt. Moon): 3m07; 5m08

RB Abra (yolo Great Ball**, 15%, Route 24): 1m23; 2m46
RB Abra (yolo Poké Ball**, 15%, Route 24): 3m15; 5m31
Dugtrio (5%, Diglett's Cave, no repel, with bike): 2m52; 4m36
Dugtrio (5%, Diglett's Cave, repel, with bike): 0m27, 0m39

RB Safari rarity (4%, see below***): 37m10, 53m39

Tentacool (10% for lv30+, no repel, sea routes): 2m12; 4m22
Tentacool (10% for lv30+, repel, sea routes): 1m48; 2m35
Tentacool (5% for lv35+, no repel, sea routes): 4m45; 8m43
Tentacool (5% for lv35+, repel, sea routes): ; 3m35; 5m10
Tentacool (1% for lv40, no repel, sea routes): 24m56; 43m37
Tentacool (1% for lv40, repel, sea routes): 12m56; 25m51


RB Seafoam rarity**** (4%, no repel, with bike): 4m07; 6m30
RB Seafoam rarity**** (4%, repel, with bike): 1m07; 1m37

*Assuming we're only catching Caterpie/Weedle and not the attackless Kakuna/Metapod
**Assuming (very broadly) that yolo Great Balls succeed about 2/3rds of the time and yolo Poké Balls succeed about 1/3rd of the time. The actual percentages are a little less, but Abra also has a chance to fail Teleport and give you another shot, and I didn't feel like calculating all of that out more precisely
***Safari rarities include Chansey, Kangaskhan, Tauros, Pinsir, and Scyther. Thankfully, each of these Pokémon can be caught at 4% and not only 1%. Safari Zone is complicated. For the purposes of these rough calculations, I assumed a 1/5 chance per encounter of catching the rare Pokémon (the actual odds are pretty close for each of the Pokémon I looked at), and that each attempt would add about 12 seconds (I just pulled that number out of nowhere; its effect is negligible). There are ways of making these odds better that I didn't calculate; jellsprout made a post in the last thread with more details. It sounds like you can get the times down to the lower double-digits of minutes.
****4% Seafoam rarities include lv38 Dewgong, lv39 Seadra (R), lv39 Slowbro (R), lv39 Kingler (B), lv39 Golduck (B). Like with the Safari pokes, each 1% mon can be caught on a different floor at 4%. Yellow doesn't have any of these extra high-level rarities, but it is worth noting it gives somewhat better Surfing odds for high-level Tentacool, with 40% for lv30+, 20% for lv35+, and 5% for lv40.

Buying 500 coins: 0m47
Buying 5500 coins: 8m37
Buying 9999 coins: 15m40

One turn: about 0m05 to 0m10

The turns you "waste" by switch training Magikarp: about 12m54 (86 enemy Pokémon, getting you from Mt. Moon to just after Vermilion City) (but you could make this faster by only using it on stronger trainers/bosses)
The turns you "waste" by switch training Abra: about 1m48 (12 enemy Pokémon, getting you from Route 24 to partway through Route 25)

Beating a Jr. Trainer with two OHKOs: 0m40
Beating the same Jr. Trainer with an underleveled Pokémon I'm raising (lv15 Lapras with Surf vs. level 29 Nidoran/Nidorino): 1m25
Beating the same Jr. Trainer with the switch method to raise a Pokémon: 0m58

Catching a Pidgey with one Great Ball: 0m22

Going to the Power Plant to catch Zapdos: 2m29 (incidentally, this is where TM25 Thunder and the farthest-flung Rare Candy are too)

Grinding Dewgong from lv40 to lv41 in Pokémon Mansion: 4m37 (suggesting that level grinding, at least by the time you reach endgame, is a pretty drastic time investment)

Walking from Vermilion to Cerulean through Underground Tunnel (Pokémon Center to Pokémon Center): 0m53
Biking the same path: 0m39
Flying there: 0m10

tl;dr 10 minutes of buying coins (well, really 8 and a half minutes) is definitely more of a time investment than most reasonable Pokémon catching.

Even the majority of rarer Pokémon can, on average, be encountered well within 10 minutes, usually within 5. The worst exceptions are the Safari Zone Pokémon
Lv35+ Tentacool is reasonable; Lv40 is not (in RB)
The high-level Seafoam mons (most importantly Seadra, Slowbro, Kingler, and Golduck) can be encountered very fast and easily with bike and repel
This is a really interesting analysis! Tbh even if they took the same amount of time I’d still rather spend ten minutes catching a Pokémon (even a tedious low-% encounter) than buying coins 50 at a time. Through all our analyses about the most efficient ways to play the game, I think it’s important to remember that certain things might feel more draining and time-consuming to the average player, regardless of how long they actually take.
 
Amazing runs as always Ryota Mitarai Xator_Nova and DrumstickGaming ! I hope I can advance mine enough to post an update shortly as well.

Some collected thoughts of mine:

Clefable I think is almost strictly better than Nidoqueen until you get Earthquake; once you have EQ and transition to the lategame Nidoqueen pulls ahead slightly but not by enough to rank Queen a tier above Clefable IMO. If Nidoqueen ever goes S, Clefable has to be there as well.
(BTW: if nothing else wants Mega Punch, Nidoqueen is a perfectly fine recipient for it; it does improve Queen's performance by quite a bit and Mega Punch is temporary anyway)

Golem absolutely smashes its good match-ups, but it has absolutely no chance ever beating the bad ones (and there's quite a few of them). Low speed and reliance on TMs are issues as well. For these reasons alone I don't think it should ever go higher than B and I could honestly see C-tier for it.

Machamp plays surprisingly similar to Golem in gen 1; both best movesets include Earthquake, Rock Slide and a Normal move; both are tanky but slow, both have similar match-ups overall, with Golem's generally being more lopsided.

As for Slowbro, the best way of using it IMO is fishing for lv. 23 Slowbro on route 23 (Surge and Erika need to be beaten since the pool is past those guards). Skips the admittedly atrocious Slowpoke phase and some part of the grind (Slowbro can contribute decently quickly afterwards due to Surf as well as special TMs being available).
That said, Slowbro still is insanely slow (true to its name) and doesn't have great Special, and Amnesia comes really late (basically it's only a concern from pre-E4 Rival onward since Blaine and Giovanni fold to Surf anyway). Could easily see C-tier for it.

I could see D for Electabuzz and would nominate Magnemite(RB) and Voltorb(Y) to D based on Ryota's Electabuzz run. Electabuzz has the same garbage availability as stuff like Ponyta, Grimer and Koffing, and while it has some movepool options (Psychic, Submission, Strength) and maybe can get by without Thunderbolt (you find TM Thunder in the Power Plant and it learns Thunderpunch at lv. 42), its somewhat low Special makes it merely okay. Meanwhile Magneton and Electrode, while having a higher Special stat, are absolutely reliant on Thunderbolt and have basically no other good movepool options (they can't even use Normal moves well due to low base Attack).

I could see Dux in C; while it does have a good mid-game due to boosted EXP, low stats mean it's the first 'mon to fall off in performance lategame despite SD+Body Slam. Cut+Fly utility is really nice, but shouldn't be the only lynchpin for it to stay B IMO.

Using Arcanine in my own run, I'd agree with high C for Arcanine; IDT it should be B.

We've seen some cases for Dodrio->A; I'd think it should stay high B (maybe top B). Its two problems are a somewhat late availability as well as its inability to win certain match-ups (Rhydon mostly). STAB Normal off 110 base ATK as well as STAB Drill Peck to own Ghosts are great though (Fearow performs similarly due to Stat EXP after all).

The high-level Seafoam mons (most importantly Seadra, Slowbro, Kingler, and Golduck) can be encountered very fast and easily with bike and repel
TBH, I believe this is basically only relevant for Golduck. The other three are level 23 Super Rod encounters on route 23 (see the Slowbro paragraph above), at which point they hardly need grinding and have Surf right around the corner. Also this works in both Red and Blue, whereas the high-level Seafoam 'mons (and their evolution lines) can only be caught in one version (Horsea/Seadra and Slowpoke/Slowbro in Red, Krabby/Kingler and Psyduck/Golduck in Blue).

Really interested in your Kingler run, Normal moves ff 130 base ATK with Swords Dance and STAB Surf coverage sound pretty cool.
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributor
As for Slowbro, the best way of using it IMO is fishing for lv. 23 Slowbro on route 23 (Surge and Erika need to be beaten since the pool is past those guards). Skips the admittedly atrocious Slowpoke phase and some part of the grind (Slowbro can contribute decently quickly afterwards due to Surf as well as special TMs being available).
I was actually gonna mention this when I would have layed out some of the new mons I am using (since it's also relevant for Lickitung, as you need to trade a Slowbro). I discovered it as I am using Seadra and noticed I could Rod one from the same location

still, 80 SpA is far from ideal and it still needs the Psychic TM and that can still make it C-tier as you said.

As for Doduo to high B, I guess that's okay. I did say I had a high Attack IV, which contributed to its might. But yeah, I don't mind B for Doduo at all.

Really interested in your Kingler run, Normal moves ff 130 base ATK with Swords Dance and STAB Surf coverage sound pretty cool.
So far, it's definitely not D-tier, though I am not sure if I would nominate it higher than C. Even Crabhammer crits often fail to OHKO things and I found myself using SD more than once in many fights. I am actually done with that run (I am doing a Raichu / Dragonair (I'd say Dragonite, but you are not getting that one) / Seadra / Tauros run atm), but I need to fully analyze everything before I make definitive nominations.

also, Longfellow great analysis! I was planning at some point to track as to how long it takes to buy the necessary coins, but you went far beyond what I would have done. I think it's worth mentioning that buying the coins is also mentally irritating (at least for me), as mashing the A button for 8 minutes is not really what I'd call mentally stimulating.
 
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It's time for a big announcement!

I (with the help of Ryota) started from that ranking conglomerate post I did on page 6 and moved through the thread, finding basically 50 nominations over the last six pages. We assessed them and I have moved them all.

Due to the sheer amount of mons, I won't go over them all (some stayed in same place) but the notable movements off the top of my head are:

-Moved Charmander to B (it is staying there unless people have well-thought-out arguments)
-Moved Drowzee and Mr. Mime to S (both could be A though), making the count of S tiers now at seven. Both can easily drop down to A. Having 7 S tiers is kinda weird I will admit, more comfortable with 5. Psychics are Psychics though.
-Zapdos dropped from A to B
-Bunch of mons moved up from D to C like Meowth and Mankey
-Slowpoke dropped to C
-RB Pikachu rose to B; Yellow Pikachu was created in the awful of D where it belongs with the gutter trash
-Doduo stays in B
-RB Farfetch'd I dropped to C
-Magikarp I erred on the side of caution and dropped to B due to Karp phase and slow EXP, it's not like Sandshrew and co where you can more or less use it immediately
-Lapras and Shellder went in C due to meh availability
-Seel (in general) rose to B
-Machop (trade) went.in C; Machamp (no trade) was created and put in D
-Golem stays in B
-And many, many more!

Also big thanks to Modulo for inspiring me to do this! The rankings he did above were what motivated me to comb through the list.

This took two and a half hours to do by the way, so I hope you guys enjoy the long-overdue changes!

Discussion points for right now would be Mr. Mime, Jynx, and Drowzee in S as well as Clefairy: do you all think they should stay there or drop to A?
 
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Update looks amazing, especially the lower tiers look a lot cleaner now, good job!

The one placement I strongly disagree with is Scyther in C. Auto-crit Slash is nice, but apart from that, Scyther has nothing going for itself, especially since Slash ignores Swords Dance boosts (the second big draw to Scyther). Bug/Flying also is a horrendous defensive typing, and base 55 Special means it can't take a hit at all.
IMO it's definitely worse than Pidgey (who gets STAB on Normal attacks) and arguably worse than Pinsir (who needs to be taught Swords Dance via TM, but gets Submission for Rock-type coverage and has no Ice weakness); so I'd nominate Scyther to D-tier.

There's a few other placements that are debatable, but none of them are outright wrong IMO, so we'll see where they land in testing.
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributor
I agree that seven S-tiers may be a bit too much. I am all for dropping Mr. Mime to A due to its reliance on the Psychic TM, though tbh Jynx kind of suffers the same issue (though it's not as bad as a Psychic-less Mr. Mime since it has Ice Punch and Lovely Kiss), so perhaps to be consistent, this one should also drop, though I am planning on testing a Psychicless Jynx just to make sure. Drowzee, personally, could stay in S-tier, because it needs no TMs beyond Tri Attack to function well, though I believe Drumstick had some issues with its E4 performance, so if it's a huge issue, this one could also return to A.

Clefairy, I have less concerns for S now, since I came to realization that it can also SToss + Twave Misty's Starmie, giving it even more legitimacy. Though I wouldn't say it's better than Nidoking or Alakazam for sure, but that should not be relevant for its placement

I will try my best to get my run done today and post the two runs here so I can test a Psychicless Jynx and see how much it needs the TM.
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributor
D-tier. The thing hits like a wet noodle even with Psychic TM and has to spam Sleep Powder in all matchups bar Koga and Bruno. There really isn't much to say, just "it doesn't hit hard with a contested TM and has to spam Sleep Powder" is enough of a description.

TMs used: Psychic, Mega Drain

Brock(10): lol. Getting to level 12 doesn't seem reasonable, given that, bar the optional rival fight, I did not use switch grind on any Bug Catcher

Blue #2 (20): Confusion 3-4HKOs Pidgeotto and 2HKOs Rattata and Bulbasaur. Put Pidgeotto to sleep with Sleep Powder.

Misty(21): Confusion 3HKOs Staryu. While not very efficient, Sleep Powder can shut down Starmie and you can wear it down with Tackles / Confusions. Put Staryu to sleep as well

Blue #3 (25): Confusion 3HKOs Pidgeotto and seems to be a 2HKO on Raticate. Also 2HKOs Ivysaur. Tackle 3HKOs Kadabra. If you feel threatened, put stuff to sleep

Lt. Surge (25): Confusion 3HKOs Voltorb, 2HKOs Pikachu, and 6HKOs Raichu. You need to Sleep Powder Raichu to even stand a chance, as it 2HKOs with Thunderbolt. Raichu and Voltorb also outspeed it

Giovanni #1 (30): Psychic OHKOs Onix, 2HKOs Rhyhorn, and 3HKOs Kangaskhan. Confusion 2HKOs the Rocks and 4HKOs Kanga. Put Kanga to sleep

Blue #4 (30): Psychic 2HKOs Growlithe and Pidgeotto and 3HKOs Gyarados. Also covers Ivysaur. Kadabra is 3HKOed by Tackle. As always, Sleep Powder is your best friend

Erika(30): Psychic 2HKOs everything and is not really threatened. If you are using Confusion, you may want to throw Sleep Powders to not take too much damage in the process

Blue #5 (41): Psychic 3HKOs Pidgeot, 3-4HKOs Gyarados and 2HKOs Growlithe and Venusaur. Pidgeot and Gyarados have to be put to sleep in order to beat them safely

Giovanni #2 (41): Psychic OHKOs Nidorino and 2HKOs Kanga and Nidoqueen. Rhyhorn is OHKOed by Mega Drain

Koga(42): Psychic OHKOs Koffing and 2HKOs the rest.

Sabrina(43): Psychic 2HKOs Venomoth, but is very inefficient against the rest and has to put them to sleep so it doesn't take damage as it repeatedly attacks them

Blaine(47): Psychic 2HKOs unevolved ones, 3HKOs Rapidash, and 4HKOs Arcanine. Use Sleep Powder to win safely.
Giovanni #3 (48): Mega Drain OHKOs Rhyhorn and 2HKOs Rhydon and Dugtrio. Psychic 2HKOs Nidos. If feeling threatened, put stuff to sleep

Blue #6 (48): the only ones it can beat easily are Rhyhorn (Mega Drain), Growlithe, and Venusaur (both 2HKOed by Psychic). Pidgeot is 3HKOed by Psychic, Gyarados is 4HKOed, and Zam will pmuch eat all your attacks. All of those three must be put to sleep.

Lorelei(52): Psychic 4HKOs Dewgong and 5HKOs Lapras. Cloyster is 3HKOed by Mega Drain, while Slowbro is 4HKOed. You need to put things to sleep in order to have any chance of winning here

Bruno(52): Psychic 2HKOs Machamp and OHKOs Hitmons, while Mega Drain OHKOs Onix.

Agatha(52): Psychic 3HKOs Gengar and 2HKOs the rest. Sleep Powder is needed to make it through safely

Lance(53): Psychic 3HKOs Dragonair and is a 3-4HKO on Aerodactyl. Dragonite requires too many Psychics, given Hyper Potion. You absolutely need to put things to sleep, as you will be taking heavy damage

Champion Blue(53): Mega Drain 2HKOs Rhydon and Psychic seems to be a 3HKO on Venusaur. The rest need to be put to sleep in order to be defeated


Flareon is very comparable to Arcanine; while it doesn't have Dig, Flareon has a huge 130 Attack stat. Furthermore, Flareon has 110 Special, meaning it's outdamaging Arcanine's 80 Special with Fire Blast. Flareon also has Fire Spin, allowing it to troll opponents. With that said though, I am not sure if Flareon is good enough for C-tier, because if you don't teach Body Slam (or DEdge), it will be a lot less useful. But I can see C-tier, if you look past those flaws, but I am not really going to mind it staying in D-tier either. Drumstick can check logs and decide

TMs used: Body Slam, Double-Edge, Fire Blast
Giovanni #1 (30): Body Slam and DEdge 3HKO Kanga, who 4HKOs with Bite. If it gets lucky with Comet Punch, you may end up not beating anything here

Blue #4 (30): Body Slam OHKOs Growlithe and Kadabra and 2HKOs the rest, though Gyara kills it with Hydro Pump

Erika(30): Body Slam 3HKOs Victreebel and Vileplume and seems to be a 2HKO on Tangela. Victreebel wears you out with Wrap + Poisonpowder, so be careful

Blue #5 (41): Body Slam 2HKOs Pidgeot and OHKOs Growlithe and Alakazam. Ember 3HKOs Venusaur. Gyarados is 3HKOed by Body Slam, but it OHKOs back with Hydro Pump

Giovanni #2 (41): Body Slam 2HKOs Nidorino and Kangaskhan and 3HKOs Nidoqueen. Queen can put you in low HP, so use Quick Attack on it when in range. Rhyhorn can be muscled through with Ember

Koga(42): Body Slam 2HKOs Koffing and 3HKOs the rest. Unless you get Smokescreened, you are taking out 3/4 of his team easily, though it will take some time

Sabrina(43): Body Slam OHKOs Kadabra and OHKOs Mr. Mime on rolls. Venomoth is 2HKOed and Zam is put in red, though it can be finished off by Quick Attack

Blaine(47): Body Slam OHKOs Ponyta, OHKOs Growlithe on rolls, 2HKOs Rapidash, and 3HKOs Arcanine. Rapidash and Arcanine are faster and actually can damage or beat it.

Giovanni #3 (48): Fire Blast OHKOs Rhyhorn and 2HKOs Rhydon and the Nidos. Body Slam OHKOs Dugtrio, but it's faster and 2HKOs with Dig. You can use Fire Spin to put them in ranges for Fire Blast safely.
Blue #6 (48): Fire Blast 2HKOs Pidgeot, though it can be put in range with Fire Spin, and OHKOs Rhyhorn on rolls. Body Slam 2HKOs Alakazam and Growlithe, with DEdge being an OHKO. Fire Blast also OHKOs Venusaur

Lorelei(51): Fire Blast 2HKOs Dewgong and puts Cloyster in red, though it can be put in range with Fire Spin. Jynx is OHKOed. Slowbro can potentially be muscled through with Body Slam spam, but it is somewhat luck reliant

Bruno(52): Fire Blast 2HKOs Machamp and OHKOs the rest. Hitmonlee is faster

Agatha(52): Fire Blast 3HKOs Gengar #2 and 2HKOs the rest. It's slower than the Ghosts, though

Lance(52): Body Slam 2HKOs Dragonair, but the continuous Hyper Beams may KO it

Champion Blue(52): Fire Blast 2HKOs Pidgeot and Venusaur, while Body Slam 2HKOs Zam and 4HKOs Arcanine, though I would not fight either of those two targets


I am somewhat doubtful of B-tier. Sure, it gets Strength + SD and Crabhammer, but Crabhammer often fails to OHKO and I found myself using SD more than once in some occassions. I think it could potentially drop to C-tier, but I can agree that it's one of the better Water-types. With that said, though, if the issues I outlined aren't considered as such, then B-tier is fine for it

TMs used: Swords Dance

Erika(30): if you sidetrack to get Strength and SD, +2 Strength OHKOs Victreebel and Tangela on rolls and 2HKOs Vileplume. However, Victreebel OHKOs with Razor Leaf and Vileplume almost OHKOs. If you do go the SD + Strength route, set up two SDs against Tangela and KO her team with Strength

Blue #5 (41): +2 Strength OHKOs Pidgeot, Growlithe, and Alakazam and 2HKOs the rest. Note that special attacks, bar Hydro Pump, will deal heavy damage, with Venusaur insta KOing it with Razor Leaf, though Vine Whip is not an issue.

Giovanni #2 (42): Crabhammer, due to always critting, OHKOs everything

Koga (42): Crabhammer OHKOs Koffing and 2HKOs the rest. The accuracy can become an issue here due to Smokescreen and Minimize, but is otherwise fine

Sabrina(43): Strength OHKOs Kadabra and 2HKOs the rest. Set up a SD to claim more OHKOs. Note that I forgot to write up this one till the next day, so I am going off memory.

Blaine(47): Surf OHKOs Growlithe and Ponyta and 2HKOs the rest.

Giovanni #3 (48): Surf 2HKOs Nidos and OHKOs the rest

Blue #6 (48): +2 Strength 2HKOs Pidgeot, Gyarados, and Venusaur and OHKOs Growlithe and Alakazam, wtih Surf OHKOing Rhyhorn. Alakazam is faster and can KO you with Psychic, however, and Venusaur will beat you unless you have +4 to OHKO it

Lorelei(51): +2 Strength 2HKOs Dewgong and Slowbro, OHKOs Jynx, and 3HKOs Lapras and Cloyster. Setting up another SD should speed up the matchup. You are not seriously threatened here, though

Bruno(51): Crabhammer 3HKOs Machamp and OHKOs the rest

Agatha(52): Crabhammer 2HKOs Arbok and Golbat and 3HKOs Ghosts, though the Ghosts outspeed, making this matchup not good in general.

Lance(52): +4 Strength fails to OHKO Gyarados (+6 OHKOs), while +4 Strength OHKOs Dragonair while outspeeding. Dragonite is not a guaranteed OHKO with +6 Strength. Aerodactyl dies to Crabhammer, but is faster

Champion Blue(52): if you set up 3 SDs, Surf OHKOs Rhydon and Strength OHKOs the rest. Weirdly enough, only Arcanine outsped me, I am not sure why.


I had some reservations about even D-tier (currently C-tier), because it had very few good matchups and thought you had to grind a Slowbro. However, after finding out that you can just catch a level 23 one, the annoying grind is gone, so I think I am fine with D-tier. It's not great, don't get me wrong, but given it's not difficult to obtain now, it is somewhat usable, but overall somewhat close to E. Worth mentioning it provides HM utlity with Surf + Strength.

TMs used: SD, EQ

Blue #5 (41): +2 Strength 2HKOs Pidgeot, Gyarados, and Venusaur and OHKOs the rest. However, it is outsped by everything and the special attacks hit it hard, thus Gyara, Zam, and Venu can beat it, depending on how much damage you took

Giovanni #2 (41): +2 Strength is an OHKO on rolls on Nidorino, 2HKO on Kangaskhan and a 3HKO on Nidoqueen, though that one is 2HKOed by +2 EQ. Rhyhorn dies to Surf

Koga(43): +2 EQ 2HKOs Weezing and OHKOs the rest. In addition, only Weezing outspeeds

Sabrina(43): Strength OHKOs Kadabra and 2HKOs the rest. It is 3HKOed by Kadabra's Psychic, so it can be worn out and require healing against Alakazam

Blaine(47): +2 Strength OHKOs the unevolved stuff, +2 EQ OHKOs Rapidash and 2HKOs Arcanine. You are slower than all of them, so prepare for some Fire Spins

Giovanni #3 (48): Surf OHKOs Rhyhorn line and Dugtrio, while Earthquake 2HKOs the Nidos. I was often left at low HP, but in Lickitung's defense, it took in one instance crit Thrash and crit Body Slam and in the another instance it took a crit Thrash again

Blue # 6 (48): +2 Strength 2HKOs Pidgeot, Gyarados, and Venusaur and OHKOs Zam and Growlithe, while Surf OHKOs Rhyhorn. However, due to only outspeeding Growlithe and Rhyhorn, it will often take damage and thus may fail to sweep, particularly feeling threatened against Gyarados

Lorelei(52): this thing needs two SDs just to 2HKO things with Strength and its low Special means you are taking heavy damage from the more powerful Ice moves. You OHKO Jynx, though.

Bruno(52): Surf OHKOs Onix and 2HKOs Hitmons, but Fighting STAB will basically kill it

Agatha(52): +2 EQ OHKOs everything bar Golbat, though Golbat Hazes you and you are also outsped by everything, so prepare for some luckfest

Lance(52): +2 Strength 2HKOs Aerodactyl and Surf 2HKOs Aerodactyl. You take lots of Hyper Beams, so you are unlikely to do much here

Champion Blue(52): Surf OHKOs Rhydon. +6 Strength doesn't OHKO anything (other than a Zam with no Reflect). +6 Earthquake OHKOs Arcanine, at least


B-tier. While Pikachu is not as powerful as Jolteon, Pikachu comes earlier and can contribute againt Starmie with natural TWave and can also 1v1 Lt. Surge's Raichu, so I am fine with B-tier.

TMs used: TBolt, DEedge

Brock(10): lol

Blue #2 (18): Thundershock 3HKOs PIdgeotto and 2HKOs Rattata. Mega Punch 3HKOs Bulbasaur. Sand-Attack can be annoying, so switch out against Abra if you have accuracy drops

Misty(21): Thundershock 2HKOs Staryu and 4HKOs Starmie. While it won't beat Starmie, as Bubble Beam is a 2HKO, Thunder Wave at that point will cripple it significantly

Blue #3 (25): Thundershock 2HKOs Pidgeotto and 3HKOs Raticate. Mega Punch OHKOs Kadabra and 3HKOs Ivysaur

Lt. Surge (26): Mega Punch 2HKOs Voltorb, OHKOs Pikachu, and 3HKOs Raichu. Paralyze Raichu with Thunder Wave the matchup easier. All in all, the matchup is better than I expected

Giovanni #1 (30): Thunderbolt 2HKOs Kanga. Useless against Rocks

Blue #4 (30): Thunderbolt OHKOs Pidgeotto, Gyarados, and Growlithe. almost OHKOs Kadabra, though DEdge OHKOs it and 2HKOs Ivysaur

Erika(30): Double-Edge 2HKOs Victreebel and 3HKOs the rest. Not the most ideal matchup

Blue #5 (40): Thunderbolt OHKOs Pidgeot, Gyarados, and Growlithe. Zam is 2HKOed by Double-Edge. Do not bother with Venusaur, as it will generally finish you off with Razor Leaf

Giovanni #2 (41): beats Nidorino and Kanga, but struggles with the rest

Koga (42): Thunderbolt OHKOs Koffing and 2HKOs the rest. No issues

Sabrina(42): DEdge OHKOs Kadabra and 2HKOs Mr. Mime and Alakazam, with TBolt 2HKOing and 3HKOing. Venomoth is 2HKOed by TBolt. Zam can be paralyzed to improve matchup

Blaine(46): TBolt OHKOs Growlithe, 3HKOs Arcanine, and 2HKOs the rest.

Giovanni #3 (46): DEdge OHKOs Dugtrio and 3HKOs Nidos, though Nidoking may finish it off

Blue #6 (47): beats Pidgeot, Gyarados, and Growlithe. TWave + DEedge or TBolt, depending on if it goes for Reflect, can beat Alakazam

Lorelei(50): Thunderbolt OHKOs Cloyster and 2HKOs the other Waters. DEdge 2HKOs Jynx, but I'd personally avoid it

Bruno(51): Thunderbolt OHKOs Hitmons, 3HKOs Machamp.

Agatha(51): Thunderbolt 3HKOs Ghosts and 2HKOs the others. It's faster than everything bar Gengar #2, which you can paralyze

Lance(51): beats Aero and Gyarados

Champion Blue(51): beats Pidgeot and Gyarados and potentially Arcanine


D-tier. Annoying to obtain and requires many TMs to be good and even then, it's lacking in power. I am not sure if I would throw it in E-tier, as it can be useful with Surf and some of the TMs, but definitely not C-tier.

TMs used: Body Slam, Ice Beam

Giovanni #1 (30): Bubble Beam OHKOs Rocks and Body Slam 4HKOs Kangaskhan. Paralyze it with Thunder Wave to improve matchup

Blue #4 (30): Body Slam 2HKOs Pidgeotto, OHKOs Kadabra, OHKOs Growlithe on rolls, 2HKOs Ivysaur, and 3HKOs Gyarados. Ice Beam OHKOs Pidgeotto, but not Ivysaur

Erika(30): Ice Beam 2HKOs Tangela and 3HKOs the rest. Victreebel, however, never goes for a Grass STAB, but you will be worn down by Wrap + Poison Powder. Still, you likely take out 2/3 of her team if you teach it Ice Beam

Blue #5 (40): Ice Beam 2HKOs Pidgeot, while Surf OHKOs Growlithe. Body Slam 2HKOs Zam and is a 3-4HKO on Gyarados and a 4HKO on Venusaur. You can spread paralysis to make the matchups better

Giovanni #2 (41): Body Slam 2HKOs Nidorino, while Surf OHKOs Rhyhorn and 2HKOs the rest

Koga(41): Surf 2HKOs Koffing and 4HKOs Weezing and Muk. Body Slam also 4HKOs Muk.

Sabrina(42): Body Slam OHKOs Kadabra and 2HKOs Mr. Mime and Zam, with Mr. Mime being outsped. Venomoth is 3HKOed by Body Slam. Zam can be paralyzed to give Dragonair a chance of winning

Blaine(46): Surf 2HKOs Rapidash and Arcanine and OHKOs the rest. If you are outsped, use Thunder Wave

Giovanni #3 (46): Surf 2HKOs Nidos and OHKOs the rest

Blue #6 (46): Ice Beam 2HKOs Pidgeot and Surf beats Rhyhorn and Growlithe. Body Slam + TWave beat Zam, as the former 2HKOs. +1 Venusaur is 4HKOed by Ice Beam and can be paralyzed to make the matchup easier. Gyarados is 4HKOed by Body Slam and paralysis can help

Lorelei(51): gets 2HKOed at worst by every Ice move and it lacks power to do much to them

Bruno(51): Surf OHKOs Onix and 2HKOs the Hitmons. Machamp wins, generally

Agatha(51): non-STAB Surf here isn't doing much, really. You could muscle through Golbat and Arbok, but I'd honestly use something else at this point

Lance(51): Ice Beam 2HKOs Dragons and Surf 2HKOs Aero. Dragonairs spam Dragon Rage on you. Aero may KO you with HB if too weakened and Dragonite is the same.

Champion Blue(51): beats Rhydon and 3HKOs Arcanine with Surf, while 3HKOing Pidgeot with Ice Beam, which deals heavy damage in return.


C-tier. No difference from the other Water-types, beyond Smokescreen and Agility, I guess? But yeah, it performs similarly to most Water-types, so if those are gonna be C-tier, then Horsea probably should go there too

TMs used: Ice Beam

Erika(32): Ice Beam OHKOs Tangela and 2HKOs the rest. Seadra can live exactly one Grass STAB, so it can easily take out 2/3 of her team if not put to sleep. Note that Horsea evolves at level 32, which is why it's that high leveled

Blue #5 (40): Surf 2HKOs Pidgeot, OHKOs Growlithe, and 3HKOs Zam. Ice Beam 2HKOs Venusaur, but it will generally beat you. Do not bother with Gyarados

Koga(41): Surf OHKOs Koffing and 2HKOs the rest, no issues.

Sabrina(42): Surf 3HKOs Zam and 2HKOs the rest. Zam may finish you off if you took too much damage

Blaine(42): Surf spam wins

Giovanni #3 (46): Surf

Blue #6 (47): beats Pidgeot, Rhyhorn, and Growlithe with no problems. Zam is 3HKOed by Surf, Venusaur is 2HKOed by Ice Beam, and Gyarados takes too much time, though you aren't beating anything without healing or luck

Lorelei(50): muscles through Jynx and Cloyster, but the rest are pmuch not worth the hassle

Bruno(50): spam Surf, 3HKOs Machamp, OHKOs the rest

Agatha(51): gets outsped by Ghosts and crippled by status. Surf is at best 3HKO. You can Agility to outspeed them. Should be able to beat Golbat and Arbok easily

Lance(51): set up an Agility against Dragonair and 2HKO them and Dragonite with Ice Beam and OHKO Aero with Surf. Hyper Beam from Dragonair isn't even a 2HKO

Champion Blue(51): Ice Beam 2HKOs Pidgeot and Surf kills Arcanine and Rhydon


not sure what to expect from Tauros to be C. It definitely doesn't OHKO things without Hyper Beam (didn't try it out, so assumption), but, on the other hand, it still performs mostly okay with what it has. If we are fine with it not OHKOing consistently, C-tier is good. However, if we expect it to be colosally powerful, then it's not C-tier for sure. Also worth mentioning it levels up slowly.

TMs used: Ice Beam, Earthquake
Erika(30): Strength 2HKOs everything, with Razor Leaf being a 2HKO. You are likely taking out 2/3 of her team at worst, if no sleep shenanigans

Blue #5 (40): Strength OHKOs Zam and Growlithe and 2HKOs the rest. You also outspeed all of them.

Giovanni #2 (40): Earthquake OHKOs Nidorino and 2HKOs Nidoqueen and Rhyhorn. Strength 2HKOs Kangaskhan. Ice Beam also OHKOs Rhyhorn

Koga(41): Earthquake OHKOs Koffing and 2HKOs the rest. Strength 3HKOs Weezing and 2HKOs the rest. If you have EQ, the matchup should be very easy

Sabrina(42): Strength OHKOs Kadabra and 2HKOs the rest, though you outspeed all of them are do not fear much beyond Venomoth's Stun Spore.

Blaine(46): Earthquake 2HKOs Arcanine and OHKOs the rest.

Giovanni #3 (46): Ice Beam OHKOs Rhyhorn and 2HKOs Rhydon. Strength OHKOs Dugtrio and 2HKOs Nidoking, while EQ 2HKOs Nidoqueen

Blue #6 (46): Strength 2HKOs Pidgeot and Alakazam and 3HKOs Gyarados and Venusaur and outspeeds all of them. Earthquake OHKOs Growlithe and Ice Beam OHKOs Rhyhorn

Lorelei(50): Strength 3HKOs Slowbro and Dewgong, 2HKOs Jynx, and 4HKOs Lapras. From tests, Tauros will not get past Lapras and shouldn't bother with Cloyster

Bruno(50): Ice Beam OHKOs Onix and 2HKOs Hitmons (Strength also 2HKOs, but Ice Beam helps for avoiding Counter against Hitmonchan). Machamp generally wins

Agatha(50): Earthquake OHKOs Haunter and 2HKOs the rest, bar Golbat, which seems to be 2-3HKO with Strength

Lance(51): Strength 2HKOs Dragonair and Ice Beam 2HKOs Aero and Dragonite. You will take some Hyper Beams, so you will not be sweeping, most likely

Champion Blue(51): beats Pidgeot, Arcanine, and Rhydon. Former is 3HKOed by Strength, Arcanine is 2HKOed by EQ, and Rhydon is 2HKOed by Ice Beam. Zam is faster and hits hard with STAB. Venusaur generally finishes you off and Gyara also hits it hard


sorry if those look rushed / short, I am deprived of sleep and would rather just get done with this

e: turns out Lickitung is C-tier. I made a small edit to reflect this. Also made a note of Tauros leveling up slowly. Guess I really shouldn't post at 2 AM
 
Last edited:

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributor
a new batch of mons I tested

I decided to try out a Jynx without Psychic to see where the TM would be very useful. I also taught it SToss and Bubble Beam to help Jynx to compensate for the lack of Psychic.

Some matchups are certainly better with Psychic than usual. For example, it will make demolishing Bruno and Koga much faster and Agatha is obviously a better matchup. It also makes Erika better, as you cannot have Ice Punch without triggering disobediance.

I am not going to make a nomination for Jynx, as this test was purely to see where you want the Psychic TM a lot. Not to mention it'd be pretty dumb to use Jynx and not teach it Psychic, but that's besides the point.

TMs used: Bubble Beam, Seismic Toss

Giovanni #1 (29): Bubble Beam OHKOs Rock and SToss 4HKOs Kanga, put it to sleep.

Blue #4 (29): Bubble Beam 3HKOs Pidgeotto and OHKOs Growlithe. SToss 3HKOs Gyarados and Ivysaur. Pound 2HKOs Kadabra. Put Gyarados to sleep, as it can deal heavy damage with Dragon Rage

Erika(29 / 30): lv. 29 SToss 4HKOs Poisons, while lv. 30 one 3HKOs. Tangela is always 3HKOed. Combine with sleep to make the matchup safe

Blue #5 (41): Ice Punch OHKOs Pidgeot on rolls and 2HKOs Venusaur. Gyarados is 4HKOed by SToss. Zam is 3HKOed by Ice Punch and Growlithe is OHKOed by Bubble Beam. Put Gyara to sleep if you are worried about it beating you and Zam so it doesn't spam Recover.

Giovanni #2 (41): spam Ice Punch

Koga(43): Ice Punch 2HKOs Koffing and 3HKOs the rest. You definitely want Psychic here, though you can spread sleep with Lovely Kiss, if needed.

Sabrina(43): Seismic Toss 2HKOs Kadabra and Mr. Mime and 3HKOs Venomoth and Zam (with Ice Punch not being any better in any instance). Use Lovely Kiss on Venomoth to prevent Stun Spore and on Zam to prevent Recover spam

Blaine(47): Bubble Beam 3HKOs Arcanine and 2HKOs the rest. Rapidash and Arcanine are best dealt with by putting them to sleep, as Fire Spin is annoying and Fire Blast is dangerous

Giovanni #3 (48): Ice Punch OHKOs everything, though Nidos and Rhydon are rolls

Blue #6 (47): Ice Punch 2HKOs Pidgeot and Venusaur and 3HKOs Gyarados. Bubble Beam OHKOs Growlithe and Rhyhorn. Alakazam is 3HKOed by Seismic Toss. Put Gyarados and Zam to sleep and Venu if you are worried about it

Lorelei(52): SToss 4HKOs Dewgong and Slowbro, 5HKOs Lapras, and 3HKOs Cloyster and Jynx. You will want to spread sleep to not take damage.

Bruno(52): Ice Punch OHKOs Onix, 2HKOs Hitmons and 3HKOs Machamp. Put Lee and Machamp to sleep, as they hit it hard with Fighting STABs

Agatha(53): SToss 3HKOs Gengars and Haunter, while Ice Punch 2HKOs the rest. Gengar #2 outspeeds, but the rest are slower and you can put stuff to sleep

Lance(53): Ice Punch 2HKOs Aero and outspeeds and OHKOs the Dragons. Aero almost OHKOs it with HB, though

Champion Blue(54): Ice Punch 2HKOs Pidgeot and Venusaur and OHKOs Rhydon on rolls. The rest can be beaten with Sing + Seismic Toss, as Jynx pmuch levels up for every Pokemon defeated or (two)


Yeah, please keep this in D-tier. Movepool is just very poor and Pidgey is underwhelming both in the early-game and the end-game. Its mid-game is *acceptable*, but I wouldn't call it amazing either, considering you will rarely OHKO the opponents you are facing.

TMs used: Double-Edge, Sky Attack

Pidgey

Brock(13): can Sand-Attack for a teammate, but doesn't do much

Blue #2 (20): QA / Gust 4HKO Pidgeotto, kill Abra, 2HKO Rattata, and 3HKO Bulbasaur

Misty(21): 3HKOs Staryu. Can cripple Starmie with Sand-attack but is useless otherwise

Blue #3 (24): QA 3HKOs Pidgeotto and Ivysaur and 2HKOs the rest

Lt. Surge (25): QA 3HKOs Voltorb, 2HKOs Pikachu, and 4HKOs Raichu. You could perhaps Sand-Attack Raichu, but it will beat you, generally

Giovanni #1 (31): terrible. Cannot get past rocks and Kanga is 6HKOed by Wing Attack (DEdge is like a 3HKO or so), so you are not doing much here. Kanga will likely beat you

Blue #4 (31): DEdge almost OHKOs Pidgeotto, 2HKOs Gyarados (which generally beats you or damages you significantly), and OHKOs Growlithe. QA OHKOs Kadabra and Fly OHKOs Ivysaur

Erika(31): Fly + Wing Attack KO all Grass-types, you also outspeed them. They will often go for Poisonpowder first, so you can take advantage of that to avoid any Sleep Powdes whatsoever

Blue #5 (41): DEdge 2HKOs Pidgeot and Gyarados and OHKOs Growlithe and Zam. Fly + Wing Attack KO Venusaur

Giovanni #2 (41): DEdge 2HKOs Nidorino and Kanga and 3HKOs Nidoqueen. Rhyhorn can be muscled through, but you will take damage. Nidoqueen may be able to finish you off, though, due to recoil

Koga(42): DEdge + QA KO Koffing and two DEdges KO Muk. Weezing is 3HKOed. Only avoid Smokescreen and you will be fine

Sabrina(43): Fly OHKOs Venomoth and DEdge OHKOs the rest, outspeeding all of them

Blaine(47): DEdge OHKOs unevolved stuff and 2HKOs the rest, though Arcanine will generally beat it due to recoil

Giovanni #3 (48): Fly OHKOs Dugtrio on rolls and DEdge 2HKOs Nidos. You can also muscle through Rhyhorn, if you wish to

Blue #6 (48): DEdge 2HKOs Gyara and Pidgeot and OHKOs Zam and Growlithe, though Zam is faster and can finish you off. Venusaur is 2HKOed by Fly. I'd not bother with Rhyhorn, though you can muscle through it, if you wish

Lorelei(52): DEdge OHKOs Jynx, but Pidgeot is bad for the rest, as Ice moves will 2HKO it at worst. However, it can damage them hard with Sky Attack. Slowbro can be muscled through with crits

Bruno(52): Sky Attack OHKOs the Fighting-types, though it will have problems facing Onix

Agatha(52): Sky Attack OHKOs Gengar #1 and Haunter (while outspeeding) and DEdge 2HKOs Golbat and Arbok. Gengar #2 outspeeds and lives a Sky Attack

Lance(52): Sky Attack puts Dragonair in range for QA, but it will be taking damage from HB in the process

Champion Blue(52): Sky Attack OHKOs Venusaur. Can also beat Arcanine by 2HKOing it with Sky Attack, though the one I faced derped a lot


This looks like a C-tier. If taught Rock Slide and EQ (neither of which is really contested, since anything that wants EQ can also use Dig bar Nidos), it hits pretty hard and will often end up with great matchups. Slow exp group definitely hurts it and the slowness as well, combined with the somewhat late availability. But if it wasn't for those, it'd theoritically be in B-tier comfortably

TMs used: Rock Slide, Earthquake
Erika(29): EQ 2HKOs the Poison-types, but dies to Grass moves. Rock Slide seems to be a 3HKO on Tangela

Blue #5 (41): Rock Slide OHKOs Pidgeot and 2HKOs Gyarados, which OHKOs with Hydro Pump. EQ OHKOs Zam and Growlithe and 2HKOs Venusaur, which can only be beaten if it spams Leech Seed

Giovanni #2 (42): EQ 2HKOs Kanga and OHKOs the rest

Koga(42): OHKOs everything with Earthquake, with Weezing being the only one that outspeeds

Sabrina(43): EQ OHKOs everything, though it's outsped by them as well. However, Kadabra and Zam fail to 2HKO it each, so you are likely winning anyways

Blaine(47): EQ OHKOs everything, though only Growlithe is outsped, so prepare for some Fire Spin

Giovanni #(48): EQ 2HKOs Rhydon and OHKOs the rest. Easy sweep

Blue #6 (48): Rock Slide OHKOs Pidgeot and Growlithe, while EQ OHKOs Zam and Rhyhorn. Gyara kills it with Hydro Pump, but takes heavy damage from Rock Slide and Venusaur kills it

Lorelei(52): Rock Slide OHKOs Dewgong, though Aurora Beam hits first and 2HKOs. It can also live an Ice Punch from Jynx from full and OHKO back with EQ. The rest beat it, though Slowbro can derp and spam Withdraw

Bruno(52): EQ OHKOs Onix and 2HKOs Hitmonchan, along with Machamp on rolls. Lee is OHKOed as well. Jump Kick + Submission fail to KO Rhydon

Agatha(52): Rock Slide OHKOs Golbat and EQ OHKOs the rest, though everything outspeeds you

Lance(52): Rock Slide OHKOs Aerodactyl and 2HKOs Dragonite, while EQ OHKOs Dragonair. This is not a bad matchup at all

Champion Blue(52): Rock Slide puts Pidgeot in red and it doesn't do much in return. EQ 2HKOs Rhydon and OHKOs non-Reflected Zam and Arcanine


Yeah, so, your typical Water-type. Only difference is that Seismic Toss makes it slightly better when it comes to dealing damage to things like Lorelei's Dewgong, but not something that would push it to a higher tier. C-tier

TMs used: Ice Beam, Seismic Toss
Erika(31): Ice Beam 2HKOs Tangela and 3HKOs the rest. Obviously, this is not a good matchup

Blue #5(41): Surf 2HKOs Pidgeot, 3HKOs Zam, and OHKOs Growlithe. Ice Beam 2HKOs Venusaur, but it will generally KO you with Razor Leaf. Gyarados is 4HKOed by Seismic Toss, if you need to fight it

Giovanni #2 (41): spam Surf

Koga(42): Surf OHKOs Koffing, 2HKOs Muk, and 3HKOs Weezing. You are taking out 3/4 at worst and Weezing can potentially explode

Sabrina(43): SToss 2HKOs Kadabra and Mr. Mime and 3HKOs Zam, with Surf 2HKOing Venomoth, which Stun Spores you. Not a bad matchup at all

Blaine(47): Surf

Giovanni #3 (47): Surf

Blue #6 (48): Surf and Ice Beam 2HKO Pidgeot and Surf kills Rhyhorn and Growlithe. SToss 4HKOs Gyarados. Zam will generally beat you. Venusaur seems to be a 2HKO with Ice Beam, but will often beat you, especially if damaged enough

Lorelei(51): SToss 4HKOs Dewgong and Slowbro, 5HKOs Lapras, and 3HKOs Cloyster and Jynx. You may have to heal, as you will be taking a lot of damage in the process

Bruno(52): Surf spam and you win. This is the same as pmuch every Water-type I've used

Agatha(52): Surf 3HKOs Gengar #1 and Haunter and 2HKOs Arbok and Golbat. While Surf generally 4HKOs Gengar #2, SToss is a 3HKO, so use that. Though you are slower than the ghosts

Lance(52): Ice Beam 2HKOs Dragons and Surf 2HKOs Aero. You may faint againt Aero due to its HB or against DNite also due to its HB

Champion Blue(52): beats Pidgeot, Rhydon, and Arcanine


Leaning towards C-tier. Mankey really wants the Dig TM in order to be strong, otherwise Karate Chop is its only strong move (and even then, Dig outdamages it and KChop sometimes misses some OHKOs, like against Sabrina's Kadabra). Do note that I never taught it Submission and I don't think I have to explain why

and in case I do, because Submission is a terrible move. Recoil + 80% accuracy should be speaking for themselves.

TMs used: Dig, Seismic Toss
Brock(10): Tail Whip for a teammate, but useless otherwise

Blue #2 (16): Karate Chop 4HKOs Pidgeotto, 3HKOs Bulbasaur, and 2HKOs Rattata. You are likely losing against Pidgeotto

Misty(22): Karate Chop and SToss 3HKO Starmie, though it itself 3HKOs with Water Gun and 2HKOs with Bubble Beam

Blue #3 (25): Karate Chop OHKOs Kadabra and 2HKOs the rest

Lt. Surge(25): Karate Chop 2HKOs Voltorb, OHKOs Pikachu, and 3HKOs Raichu. Dig improves the matchup significantly, though keep in mind TBolt hits you hard

Blue #4 (30): Karate Chop OHKOs Kadabra and Growlithe and 2HKOs the rest. Rock Slide can OHKO Pidgeotto

Giovanni #1 (30): Dig beats Rocks and Karate Chop is a 3-4HKO on Kangaskhan

Erika(30): Dig 2HKOs Victreebel and 3HKOs Vileplume, with Karate Chop 3HKOing them and Tangela. Razor Leaf, in particular, is a 2HKO, so if you have Dig, you may be able to beat it and then beat Tangela

Blue #5 (42): Rock Slide 2HKOs Pidgeot and Gyarados, the latter of which 2HKOs with Hydro Pump, and OHKOs Growlithe. Zam is outsped and OHKOed by Dig (Chop puts it in red). Venusaur is normally 2HKOed by Dig, but Leech Seed turns it into a 3HKO and you are also likely getting finished off by it

Giovanni #2 (42): Dig OHKOs Nidorino and 2HKOs the rest

Koga(43): Dig OHKOs Koffing and 2HKOs the rest. KChop 2HKOs Koffing, 3HKOs Muk, and 4HKOs Weezing

Sabrina(43): KChop OHKOs Kadabra and 2HKOs Mr. Mime (though you OHKO with Dig if no Barriers). Venomoth is OHKOed by Rock Slide and Alakazam is 2HKOed by KChop and Dig. It also fails to OHKO you with Psybeam, though it puts it in red, so you have to be healthy. Also, outspeeds all of her Pokemon

Blaine(47): Dig/Rock Slide 2HKO Arcanine and OHKO the rest

Giovanni #3 (48): Dig 2HKOs Rhyhorn line, OHKOs Dugtrio and Nidoking and OHKOs Nidoqueen on rolls. Karate Chop fails to OHKO Dugtrio

Blue #6 (48): Rock Slide 2HKOs Pidgeot and Gyarados, with KChop finishing them off. Dig 2HKOs Rhyhorn. Rock Slide also OHKOs Growlithe. Zam is 2HKOed by Dig and the only way to win here is for rival to heal it after hitting it, since you outspeed and thus finish it off.

Lorelei(51): Rock Slide 2HKOs Dewgong. Slowbro derps and spams Amnesia, so SToss it to death. Cloyster and Lapras are 3HKOed by Rock Slide, Lapras generally wins, as it 2HKOs with special moves. Jynx is OHKOed by Rock Slide

Bruno(52): Dig 2HKOs Onix and Hitmons. SToss 4HKOs Machamp. Machamp will likely finish you off with Submission, though it may also derp and give you a chance to beat it

Agatha(52): Dig OHKOs all the Ghosts and 2HKOs Arbok (though she generally heals it). Golbat is 2HKOed by Rock Slide. The only one that can outspeed is Gengar #2, as it speedtied my Primeape

Lance(52): Dragons do nothing to it due to the outstanding AI. Aero is 2HKOed by Rock Slide and it 2HKOs with Hyper Beam

Champion Blue(52): Rock Slide 2HKOs Pidgeot. Dig 2HKOs Arcanine and 3HKOs Rhydon. The rest generally win, though Gyara is also 2HKOed by Rock Slide, but generally deals a lot of damage with Hydro Pump


Graveler, as a whole, performs on a very close levels to its evolution. I decided to compare each's logs and, truth to be told, there were few differences. The most notable one I can think of is that Erika's Vileplume outspeeds Graveler, while Golem outspeeds instead and can KO iwth Explosion. As a whole, I felt both performed very similarly and thus propose to merge Graveler and Golem into one ranking in B-tier.

And before you say "nooo, Golem is better, it must be a tier above", remember that Pokemon are tested on their own merits. The fact that Golem is better than Graveler does not disqualify Graveler from being B too. Unlike Haunter and Gengar, where the pre-evolution clearly has notable disadvantages compared to its evolution (in this case, many OHKOs and 2HKOs are not such and thus Haunter has to rely on Hypnosis a lot more), here you have to go out of your way to see the difference and, if I have to be honest, if you don't evolve your Graveler, I can say you are not missing out on a lot.

Link to the Golem post if you want to read the Golem logs too

TMs used: Dig, Rock Slide
Logs start from Erika, as anything before that is more or less the same


Erika(30): unlike Golem, Graveler does not outspeed Vileplume and thus cannot OHKO it with Self-destruct. If it derps and goes for Sleep Powder and misses, you still OHKO, though. It beats Tangela with Rock Slide as well

Blue #5 (42): Rock Slide OHKOs Pidgeot and Growlithe and EQ OHKOs Zam. Gyarados is 2HKOed by Rock Slide, but kills with Hydro Pump. Venusaur generally beats you, though if you manage to, Self-destruct can be used to OHKO it

Giovanni #2 (42): EQ 2HKOs Kanga and OHKOs the rest

Koga(43): EQ 2HKOs Weezing and OHKOs the rest. Weezing is the only one that outspeeds

Sabrina(43): EQ OHKOs everything, but you are also outsped by all of them and Kadabra's Psybeam on its own is a 3HKO (Psychic is a 2HKO). Zam is also OHKOed by Explosion, even with Reflect.

Blaine(47): EQ OHKOs everything, but it outspeeds only Growlithe, so expect some annoying Fire Spins

Giovanni #3 (48): EQ 2HKOs Rhydon and OHKOs the rest. Note that Dugtrio deals damage with Dig, but it's only a threat if it's a crit. You also outspeed the Rhyhorn line.

Blue #6 (48): Rock Slide OHKOs Gyarados and Pidgeot (both on rolls), though Gyara murders it with Hydro Pump. EQ OHKOs Growlithe, Rhyhorn, and Zam, though Zam puts it in red with Psychic. If Venusaur misses with Razor Leaf, you can OHKO it with Explosion

Lorelei(52): the only useful thing it does is survive an Aurora Beam from Dewgong and OHKO it with Explosion. The rest do not die to Explosion or OHKO Graveler while outspeeding it

Bruno(52): EQ 2HKOs Onix and Himonchan and OHKOs Hitmonlee, though Lee can KO it with a Fighting STAB. EQ 3HKOs Machamp, while Explosion OHKOs with no Defense boosts, though you are slower, so hope that Machamp misses with Fissure or Submission

Agatha(52): Rock Slide 2HKOs Golbat and EQ OHKOs the rest. However, you are slower than all of them, so you may be haxed, but at least you are killing something if you can attack (bar against Golbat)

Lance(53): EQ 2HKOs Dragonair and Rock Slide 2HKOs Aerodactyl and DNite. DNite, notably, will go for Hyper Beam at one point or another

Champion Blue(53): Rock Slide 2HKOs Pidgeot. EQ 2HKOs Arcanine and OHKOs Zam on rolls, though Zam likely murders you. EQ 2HKOs Rhydon


Goldeen is definitely one of the weaker Water-types, that's for sure. Its only niche is that it learns Waterfall by level, which means it has a better secondary Water STAB, and can utilize Double-Edge better than most Water-types.

With that said, though, Goldeen has some issues, compared to its Water comrades. Its Surfs are weaker than others'. For example, it fails to OHKO Koga's Koffing, while things like Golduck manage to. Overall, Goldeen is definitely one of the weaker Water-types. I am not really sure where I'd put it, though, it still does Water things, for most parts, just not with as much efficiency as most Water-types there. I'd say it's slightly less efficient than Kabuto, though I nommed it to C with the idea that Omanyte would be B, so this may be a moot point. I will let Drumstick decide, based on logs

e: to be clear, it's either D or C, I am just unsure myself where it'd be better

TMs used: Ice Beam, Double-Edge

Erika(31): Note that I just caught a Seaking directly, so assume Seaking. Ice Beam 2HKOs everything on her team. Razor Leaf almost OHKOs, while Petal Dance is a straight 2HKO. You can comfortably beat Tangela and Vileplume this way, only avoid Sleep Powder.

Blue #5 (42): Surf 2HKOs Pidgeot and OHKOs Growlithe. DEdge OHKOs Zam on rolls and 3HKOs Gyarados. Venusaur is 2HKOed by Ice Beam, but will generally beat you

Giovanni #2 (42): spam Surf

Koga(43): Surf 3HKOs Weezing and 2HKOs the rest. Avoid Smokescreens and you are taking out 3/4 of his team at worst

Sabrina(43): DEdge OHKOs Kadabra and 2HKOs Mr. Mime and Zam, with Moth being 2HKOed by Surf. Note that Mr. Mime is the only one it's outspeeding. Stun Spore and offensive moves are dangerous, as Seaking is 3HKOed by Kadabra's Psychic, for some insight

Blaine(45): Surf

Giovanni #3 (47): ^

Blue #6 (48): like all Waters, it beats Pidgeot, Growlithe, and Rhyhorn. However, it can also potentially beat Gyarados, as it's 3HKOed by DEdge

Lorelei(52): DEdge 3HKOs Dewgong and 2HKOs Jynx. You can also 4HKO Cloyster with Surf, but you need to be healthy enough to eat Spike Cannons

Bruno(52): Surf 3HKOs Machamp and OHKOs the rest, though Lee is faster, but won't KO you.

Agatha(52): Surf 4HKOs Gengar #1, 3HKOs Haunter, and 2HKOs Arbok. Ice Beam 2HKOs Golbat (Surf is a 3HKO)

Lance(52): Ice Beam 2HKOs the Dragons and Surf OHKOs Aerodactyl. Dragonair's HB is a 3HKO. Chances are DNite will beat you, unless it derps and spams Psychic moves

Champion Blue(54): As literally any other Water, it beats Pidgeot, Rhydon, and Arcanine


This is pretty much a better Tauros. Access to Surf means it can deal with the Rhyhorns without wasting any valuable TMs and it is also in a better Exp. group. I think Kanga deserves to be C more than Tauros, though I don't mind both being C (Tauros has a case for D, although it's definitely better than most of the D-tiers, which is why I am fine with C).

TMs used: Earthquake, Rock Slide

Erika(30): Strength 2HKOs everything. Razor Leaf 2HKOs it and Petal Dance 3HKOs it. You may need to heal to sweep, as one RLeaf + PDance are enough to KO it.

Blue #5 (41): Strength 2HKOs Pidgeot, Gyarados, and Venusaur and OHKOs the rest

Giovanni #2 (42): Earthquake OHKOs Nidorino and 2HKOs Queen (Strength 3HKOs the latter). Strength 2HKOs Kanga and Surf OHKOs Rhyhorn

Koga(43): Earthquake OHKOs Koffing and 2HKOs the rest. Strength 3HKOs Weezing and 2HKOs the rest

Sabrina(43): Strength OHKOs Kadabra and Mr. Mime and 2HKOs the rest, though Rock Slide OHKOs Venomoth

Blaine(47): EQ/Rock Slide OHKOs the unevolved stuff and 2HKOs the rest

Giovanni #3 (48): Surf OHKOs Rhyhorn line. Strength 2HKOs Nidoking and OHKOs Dugtrio. Strength 3HKOs Nidoqueen, EQ 2HKOs, and Surf is a 2HKO on rolls

Blue #6 (48): Strength 2HKOs Pidgeot and Rock Slide 2HKOs Gyarados and OHKOs Growlithe. Zam is also 2HKOed by Strength, though if you are aiming for a sweep, Zam will generally finish you off. Rhyhorn dies to Surf. Venusaur is 3HKOed by Strength, but will generally finish you off

Lorelei(52): Rock Slide 2HKOs Dewgong and 3HKOs Lapras and Cloyster. Strength seems to be a 4HKO on Slowbro. Rock Slide OHKOs Jynx. You beat Dewgong and Jynx for sure, along with Cloyster if it doesn't Clamp, Slowbro if it spams Amnesia, and Lapras if it spams Body Slam (its special moves are a 2HKO)

Bruno(52): Surf OHKOs Onix. Also 3HKOs Hitmonchan (avoiding Counter) and Strength 2HKOs Lee, though it takes heavy damage from Fighting STAB. Machamp is 3HKOed by Strength, but will likely click Submission. You outseed everything

Agatha(52): EQ OHKOs Haunter, OHKOs Gengar #1 on rolls, and 2HKOs Arbok and Gengar #2. Golbat is 2HKOed by Rock Slide. Gengar are faster

Lance(52): Strength 2HKOs Dragonair, while Surf + Rock Slide KO Aero. You are unlikely to beat DNite. Also watch out for continuous HBs

Champion Blue(52): Rock Slide 3HKOs Pidgeot. Strength 2HKOs Zam, which hits it hard with Psychic and likely beats it. Rhydon is 2HKOed by Surf. Arcanine is 2HKOed by Earthquake. The rest beat you with powerful moves


I am doing a run with Arbok / Ninetales / Scyther / Pinsir. Vulpix was evolved at level 35 to have Flamethrower. I will report when I am done with the run (weekend should be free for me yay). Once I am done with this run, I will just go through the rest of the stuff that I think need testing like a checklist and hopefully have enough data for RB.
 
I’m curious on Vulpix as well. I’ll be surprised if it’s all that great though. While Ninetales actually has great Special in Gen 1, the League sounds like it’d screw Tales over hard - plus Fire just isn’t a great type in Gen 1. Case in point: My Charizard almost never used Flamethrower much endgame.

But who knows. I’ll move more stuff after the next batch of Ryota logs.
 
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