Pokemon Red, Blue, and Yellow In-Game Tiers - Reboot

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Hey, has anybody tried the traded Nidoqueen (either SPOT or TERRY)? It seems like in Red it's the best one since you can skip the bad period plus you get the bonus experience. The only bad things I can think of are missing out on Misty and having to stay below level 30 for Erika, neither of which seem super big. I wanted to test it (and also see how inefficient getting HB is) but I never got around to, I know it'll prolly not matter since Nido is already in S but it might be worth an additional comment.
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributor
Hey, has anybody tried the traded Nidoqueen (either SPOT or TERRY)? It seems like in Red it's the best one since you can skip the bad period plus you get the bonus experience. The only bad things I can think of are missing out on Misty and having to stay below level 30 for Erika, neither of which seem super big. I wanted to test it (and also see how inefficient getting HB is) but I never got around to, I know it'll prolly not matter since Nido is already in S but it might be worth an additional comment.
I believe I mentioned the traded Nidoran-F when I used the normal one, though I also knew of the Nidorina trade. As you said, it's already S-tier, so it barely matters, though yeah mentioning it in AC would be a good idea. I'd say the pre-Nidoqueen period isn't *that* bad, personally, though it wishes it had an equivalent of Horn Attack. At the end of the day, you can't really go wrong with either one, if you decide to use Nidoqueen
 
Viability in RBY is a weird beast, and very hard to look at objectively.

If I were to move Jynx down, it'd mostly be on the basis of being kinda similar to Axew in BW1 - where it trounces the lategame singlehandedly. yet comes too late to be the best of the best. I think Jynx beating the League by itself + trade EXP is just something no other mon in RBY can do and just outweighs the rest of the game. Really, missing the early leaders is a downside I don't think is that bad - the only notable one is Misty. Erika is annoying but you could technically get Jynx before her.

Sleep is broken. Trade EXP is broken. Absolutely smashing the League is broken. The Speed is also a huge asset. Even if you solely used it as a fast Sleeper it would more than pull its weight. I can see why you want to group Jynx with the birds though; they perform similarly.

Gengar/Haunter seemed set in A from the moment we began this list, like in that Japanese Blue run someone did a while back. Sure TM reliance is annoying and we could maybe put it alongside Starmie in B, but the immunities of the Ghosts do help. Idk.

As for Flying types. they are currently in Longfellow's order which seems about right in terms of viability.

Jigglypuff (RB) moved to A, and Jigglypuff (Y) moved to B. No opinion on Eggs and Rhyhorn.
 
Viability in RBY is a weird beast, and very hard to look at objectively.

If I were to move Jynx down, it'd mostly be on the basis of being kinda similar to Axew in BW1 - where it trounces the lategame singlehandedly. yet comes too late to be the best of the best. I think Jynx beating the League by itself + trade EXP is just something no other mon in RBY can do and just outweighs the rest of the game. Really, missing the early leaders is a downside I don't think is that bad - the only notable one is Misty. Erika is annoying but you could technically get Jynx before her.

Sleep is broken. Trade EXP is broken. Absolutely smashing the League is broken. The Speed is also a huge asset. Even if you solely used it as a fast Sleeper it would more than pull its weight. I can see why you want to group Jynx with the birds though; they perform similarly.

Gengar/Haunter seemed set in A from the moment we began this list, like in that Japanese Blue run someone did a while back. Sure TM reliance is annoying and we could maybe put it alongside Starmie in B, but the immunities of the Ghosts do help. Idk.

As for Flying types. they are currently in Longfellow's order which seems about right in terms of viability.

Jigglypuff (RB) moved to A, and Jigglypuff (Y) moved to B. No opinion on Eggs and Rhyhorn.
Is Jynx even that late to be knocked down to A? I honestly don't think so, but I can understand people knocking it down because of it.
 
Is Jynx even that late to be knocked down to A? I honestly don't think so, but I can understand people knocking it down because of it.
It's at Fuschia. Not THAT late.

When I was talking to you earlier you expressed desire in seeing Sandshrew in S. Do you think we have too many mons in S? Do you think Sandshrew deserves to be there?
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributor
here are more runs. I also will make some comments about other things:

run #1: Charizard / Mr. Mime / Tentacruel / Seadra

TMs used: Dig, Swords Dance

Lt. Surge(28): Dig 2HKOs Raichu, while its Thunderbolt 2HKOs as well

Gio #1 (32): Dig 2HKOs everything

Erika(32): Ember 3HKOs everything. If you are one level higher, Slash can be used to 2HKO Gloom and Weepinbell

Gio #2 (42): Dig OHKOs Nidorino and 2HKOs the rest

Koga(43): Slash 3HKOs Moth and 2HKOs the rest, outspeeding all of them. Fly will likely 2HKO and OHKO, respectively, especially with a SD

Sabrina(48): Slash 2HKOs Zam and OHKOs the rest, also outspeeds all

Blaine(48): Dig 2HKOs everything, with one SD, they become OHKOs. You also outspeed all

Gio #3 (48): +2 Dig OHKOs Nidos and Dugtrio and 2HKOs the rest. Rhydon generally beats you by OHKOing with Rock Slide

Lorelei(53): +4 Dig OHKOs Dewgong and Jynx and 2HKOs the rest. A sweep is unlikely, considering Cloyster Clamps and Lapras murders you with Hydro Pump or Blizzard. Dewgong 3HKOs it, which is what gives it the opportunity for two SDs

Bruno(54): Flamethrower deals with Fighting-types, while +2 Dig OHKOs Onix with no Defense boosts

Agatha(54): outspeeds everything. Flamethrower 2HKOs Golbat, while +2 EQ OHKOs the rest

Lance(55): +2 EQ OHKOs Dragonair on rolls, Flamethrower also 3HKOs Aero

Blue(55): you can set up SD to the max if Sandslash doesn't spam Slash. +6 EQ OHKOs Zam, Magneton, and Flareon and 2HKOs Cloyster and Sandslash. Eggy can be handled with Flamethrower. Slash puts Zam in red, if you don't go the setting up route


keep same tier
Charmander in Y is barely different from RB. You do miss out Brock, though the matchup wasn't super efficient on first place anyways. It does learn Fly here, though, which is useful for Koga. All in all, barely any fundamental differences.

TMs used: Psychic, Thunderbolt.

Lt. Surge(28): Confusion 4HKOs Raichu, though SToss should 3HKO. Thunderbolt comes close to 2HKOing and Mega Punch 3HKOs, while Mega Kick 2HKOs, so Barrier and Light Screen can help

Gio #1 (30): spam Psychic

Erika(30): Psychic puts Poison-types in red and seems to 2HKO Tangela on rolls

Gio #2 (42): spam Psychic

Koga(44): Psychic 2HKOs Moth and OHKOs the rest. Only Moth outspeeds, but it doesn't do much

Sabrina(48): SToss 2HKOs Abra and 3HKOs the rest. You outspeed all of them. It may take some time due to Recover trolling

Blaine(48): Psychic 2HKOs Rapidash and 3HKOs the rest. Outspeeds all

Gio #3 (49): Psychic OHKOs Nidos and 2HKOs the rest, though Dugtrio and Persian are faster.

Lorelei(53): Thunderbolt 3HKOs Lapras and 2HKOs the other Water-types. Avoid Jynx. Psychic 3HKOs Dewgong and 2HKOs Cloyster

Bruno(53): yes

Agatha(54): outspeeds everything but Gengar #2. Psychic 2HKOs Gengar and OHKOs the rest.

Lance(54): Set up a Barrier on Gyarados. Then OHKO it with TBolt. Psychic 2HKOs Dragonair and 3HKOs Dnite. Thunderbolt 2HKOs Aero. You will need healing and/or luck here, but the matchup is still at least ok

Blue(54): Psychic 2HKOs Sandslash and seems to 3HKO Magneton and Flareon. Thunderbolt 2HKOs Cloyster. Seismic Toss 4HKOs Exeggutor


keep same tier
Still comes early with traded Exp. and is a Psychic-type. I did use TBolt in my run, but that was cause felt at more liberty to do so. In reality, Thunderbolt barely gives any improvements, they are mostly against Lorelei. The game is a bit harsher to Mr. Mime, if I had to mention it, but it still OHKOs many things and traded Exp. that early is insane. Also, it now can be obtained with a Clefairy instead of Abra, so the easier availability does give it some bonus here.

TMs used: Ice Beam

Erika(32): Ice Beam 2HKOs everything, though it isn't really threatened here

Koga(43): Surf OHKOs Venonat #1, 3HKOs Moth, and 2HKOs the rest (though they are OHKOs on rolls). Moth 2HKOs on rolls with Psychic, though

Sabrina(47): Acid 3HKOs Zam and 2HKOs the rest. You take a lot of damage from Psychic, though

Blaine(47): spam Surf

Gio #3 (48): spam Surf

Lorelei(53): the only way to do anything here is spam Barrier to trigger badge boosts and spam Surf, though are 2HKOing at best. Didn't have Acid or Mega Drain at this point

Bruno(53): spam Surf

Agatha(53): HPump OHKOs Arbok and 2HKOs Gengar, while Surf 2HKOs the rest (Ice Beam almost OHKOs Golbat)

Lance(53): Ice Beam OHKOs Dragonair and OHKOs Dnite on rolls. Surf OHKOs Aerodactyl

Blue(53): beats Flareon and Sandslash and Ice Beam 3HKOs Eggy


keep same tier
Still a Slow exp. group that is a hassle to obtain at a higher level. The fact Yellow is a bit harsher on special attackers doesn't help its case, either.

TMs used: Ice Beam

Erika(32): Ice Beam 2HKOs everything. Can live one Razor Leaf as well

Koga(43): Surf 3HKOs Moth and 2HKOs the rest. Status is the only thing that worries Seadra

Blaine(47): spam Surf

Gio #3 (48): Surf OHKOs Dugtrio, Rhydon, and Nidoqueen, and OHKOs King on rolls. 2HKOs Persian. Persian and Dugtrio are faster

Lorelei(53): didn't bother here, because no one is really using a Seadra against Lorelei and I've done that with other Water-types multiple times already

Bruno(53): spam Surf

Agatha(53): HPump 2HKOs Gengar #1 and Haunter and 3HKOs Gengar #2. Surf 2HKOs the rest

Lance(53): Ice Beam 2HKOs Dragons and Surf kills Aero. Thunderbolt from Dragonair 3HKOs Seadra

Blue(53): beats Flareon and Sandslash


keep same tier
Nothing impressive about Seadra, other than the fact you can get it at level 35. However, the level 35 ones seem rarer (there are also level 25) and Seadra on its own is a 30% with fishing, so you will likely spend some time looking for a higher leveled one if you are not lucky enough. Regardless, the increased special bulk for the game keeps it in check anyways.


===

run #2: Raticate / Kangaskhan / Farfetch'd / Muk / Electrode
TMs used: Dig, Bubble Beam, Double-Edge
Brock(10): no

Misty(22): Hyper Fang 3HKOs Starmie, though two leave it in range for QA, if it never boosted its Defense. Bubble Beam comes close to 2HKOing Raticate, so you have to hope for RNG here

Lt. Surge(28): Hyper Fang 2HKOs Raichu and Dig OHKOs it. You outspeed and live one Thunderbolt

Gio #1 (30): Bubble Beam gets the Rocks and DEdge gets Persian

Erika(32): DEdge 3HKOs Tangela and 2HKOs the rest, though it gets 3HKOed by Petal Dance and status prevents any sweep

Koga(42): Double-Edge 2HKOs Venonat, though you get worn out really fast. Granted, I am a bit underleveled, but I doubt it'd be too different in the next levels

Gio #2 (44): DEdge OHKOs Nidorino and Persian, while Bubble Beam OHKOs Rhyhorn. Dig 2HKOs Nidoqueen

Sabrina(48): DEdge puts Zam in red and OHKOs the rest, while outspeeding. Note that Zam will KO you with Psychic

Blaine(48): Dig 2HKOs everything, though Flamethrower 2HKOs it

Gio #3 (48): Dig 2HKOs Nidos. DEdge OHKOs Dugtrio and 2HKOs Persian. Bubble Beam puts Rhydon in red. However, Double Kick deals heavy damge to Raticate and Rhydon generally KOs it with STABs

Lorelei(53): DEdge 3HKOs Dewgong and OHKOs Jynx. Don't bother with the rest

Bruno(53): Bubble Beam OHKOs Onix. DEdge 3HKOs Machamp and 2HKOs Hitmons, though you cannot take Fighting moves

Agatha(53): Dig OHKOs Haunter and 2HKOs Arbok and Gengar #2, while #1 is OHKOed on rolls. Golbat is 2HKOed by DEdge

Lance(53): can't really handle most Hyper Beams, though it 2HKOs Dragonair with Double-Edge

Blue(53): Zam outspeeds and 2HKOs it, while living one DEdge. Magneton and Flareon are 2HKOed by Dig. The rest simply live two DEdges even with Super Fang


keep same tier
Yellow proves that Raticate is probably better in C than in B. Raticate is very dependent on Dig to keep a good performance after Lt. Surge and I personally wouldn't even classify its performance with it as an A-tier on first place anyways. Keep it in C.

Erika(33): Strength seems to 3HKO Tangela and 2HKOs the rest. Petal Dance on its own is a 3HKO and sleep is annoying

Koga(42): Rock Slide 2HKOs everything, with Psychic from Moth 3HKOing it

Gio #2 (44): EQ OHKOs Nidorino and 2HKOs Nidoqueen, while Surf OHKOs Rhyhorn. Also beats Persian

Sabrina(48): Strength 2HKOs Zam and OHKOs the rest. Only Zam outspeeds

Blaine(48): outspeeds and 2HKOs everything with EQ, though Flamethrower 2HKOs it

Gio #3 (49): Surf 2HKOs Rhydon. Strength 2HKOs Persian and Dugtrio and EQ 2HKOs Nidos. You are very unlikely to sweep without Guard Spec derp

Lorelei(53): Rock Slide 2HKOs Dewgong, 3HKOs Lapras and Cloyster, and OHKOs Jynx. Lapras generally beats you, though, and Cloyster can Clamp you.

Bruno(53): Surf OHKOs Onix. Strength 3HKOs Machamp and 2HKOs the rest, though Fighting-types pretty much cripple it

Agatha(53): EQ OHKOs Haunter and Gengar #1 and 2HKOs Arbok and Gengar #2. Rock Slide 2HKOs Golbat

Lance(54): Strength 2HKOs Dragonair, while Rock Slide 2HKOs Aero and 3HKOs the rest

Blue(54): EQ 2HKOs Magneton and Flareon. Strength also 2HKOs Zam and Surf 3HKOs Sandslash, though both of those hit you hard


keep same tier
Idek if it's worse here, matchup-wise, but it is now actually more common, being around 15% at best. It also can come at level 33, which is pretty high. If the matchups are indeed worse, then the new availability compensates for it

TMs used: Body Slam

Erika(31): +2 Fly OHKOs everythig while outspeeding

Koga(41): +2 Fly OHKOs everything. Only Moth outspeeds

Gio #2 (44): +2 Body Slam 2HKOs Queen, 3HKOs Rhyhorn, and OHKOs the rest

Sabrina(48): Body Slam OHKOs Abra and almost OHKOs Kadabra. 2HKOs Zam. Kadabra and Zam outspeed. SD + Agility without being Flashed is pretty much the only way to cleanly sweep

Blaine(48): if you set up SD and Agility, Body Slam will OHKO Rapidash and Ninetales and 2HKO Arcanine. However, Ninetales's Flamethrower is a 2HKO, so you need luck

Gio #3 (48): you can set up on Dugtrio. You need an gility and SD to the max to OHKO everything up to Rhydon

Lorelei(53): if you set up SD to the max on Slowbro, Body Slam will 2HKO with Withdraw boosts and OHKO the rest while outspeeding. Surf 3HKOs it

Bruno(53): +2 Fly almost OHKOs Machamp and OHKOs Hitmons, if they do not have Defense boosts

Agatha(53): If you set up two SDs and one Agility, you can OHKO everything with appropriate move

Lance(53): if you set up two SDs without dying, you will outspeed and OHKO Gyarados. Then you outspeed naturally Dragonair and also OHKO them. Aero stops your sweep, though

Blue(54): if you set up SD to the max (and one Agility), you OHKO everything with appropriate move till Cloyster, which finishes you off as it lives a Body Slam


keep D-tier
I used this one to see if it could see a higher or lower tier, but it shouldn't. It definitely has its own uses, but it is reliant on SD and Agility boosts to do anything and SDs are often more than one. Furthermore, Farfetch'd has lost its HM utility, as the fact you've caught it means you have taught Cut to something. And we don't give things a tier boost just cause they learn Fly.

TMs used: TBolt, Mega Drain, Fire Blast

Gio #2 (44): Sludge 2HKOs Persian, while TBolt 3HKOs Nidorino. Mega Drain OHKOs Rhyhorn and deals very little to Nidoqueen

Sabrina(48): Sludge OHKOs Abra and Kadabra, though Kadabra OHKOs with Psychic. Zam is 2HKOed

Blaine(48): Sludge 3HKOs Ninetales and Rapidash. Flamethrower hurts

Gio #3 (49): really bad here. At most beats Persian with Sludge spam, but the rest take little from Mega Drain (Rhydon is a **3HKO**) and just hit it with Ground STAB

Lorelei(53): Thunderbolt 3HKOs Dewgong, 4HKOs Lapras, and seems to 2HKO Slowbro and Cloyster. Slowbro and Dewgong do not spam status moves anymore and Slowbro even has Psychic. Jynx is 2HKOed by Sludge

Bruno(53): Mega Drain OHKOs Onix. Sludge 2HKOs Hitmons. Machamp generally finishes you off.

Lance(53): Sludge 2HKOs Dragonair, while Thunderbolt 2HKOs Gyarados. You take heavy damage from HB

Agatha(53): at most take down Golbat with TBOlt spam, the rest aren't worth it

Lance(53): Thunderbolt 2HKOs Gyarados and Sludge 2HKOs Dragonair, though you take heavy damage from Lance

Blue(53): cannot beat anything here reliably. Eggy is 3HKOed by Sludge, but is faster and puts you to sleep as soon as possible. Cloyster is 3HKOed by Thunderbolt, but Clamps you. Magneton 2HKOs with Thunderbolt. You get it


mayybe split
There isn't anything special about Muk's availability here (though you can find the line in Power Plant too). Instead, the reason I suggest a consideration for a split is that Muk is borderline useless in this game. It cannot troll Lance and some of Lorelei's Pokemon, thus gaining easy wins against them. Furthermore, Giovanni has an actual movepool and thus threatens Muk. Idek if I am going too hard on it, but it barely does anything useful, so I wouldn't mind a split with Grimer (Y) being E-tier. Logs should just be checked to come to a conclusion.

Worth mentioning that you can repel trick one at level 41, similarly to RB.

TMs used: Thunderbolt

Gio #2 (47): Thunderbolt 2HKOs Nidorino and Persian (puts them in red). And yes, I am overleveled, I caught it at level 43

Sabrina(48): Thunderbolt 3HKOs Abra and Kadabra. Explosion OHKOs Zam

Blaine(48): TBolt seems to 3HKO Ninetales and Rapidash. Explosion 2HKOs Arcanine

Gio #3 (48): I'd write something from Catch-22 here, but too lazy for that

Lorelei(53): Thunderbolt OHKOs Cloyster and 2HKOs the other Water-types

Bruno(54): TBolt on Fighting-types

Agatha(54): Thunderbolt 3HKOs Haunter and Gengar #1, 2HKOs Arbok and Golbat, and 4HKOs the other Gengar. Paralyzing the Gengars can make the matchup a bit easier.

Lance(54): kills Aero and Gyara

Blue(54): TBolt kills Cloyster, while Explosion OHKOs Zam


mayyybee split
The reason why I am "maybe" despite the obviously later arrival is that, at least in RB, it doesn't really have any notable matchups before you can access the Power Plant (even Koga due to fat 2HKOs or 3HKOs there). Furthermore, Electrode comes late, but you can just get it at level 43, which should be on par with your team by the time you beat Koga (or even higher, if you challenge him as soon as possible). The only difference here is that you do not have EVs when you catch it, though perhaps the game's increased difficulty for special attackers can push it to D.


===
run #3: Fearow / Hypno / Tangela / Rhydon

TMs used: Double-Edge

Brock(10): no

Misty(21): Bubble Beam deals heavy damage to Fearow, while its Fury Attacks are not threatening Starmie unless they are crits, especially if Starmie has gone for X Defend or Harden

Lt. Surge(28): Fury Attack KOs Raichu after seven hits, though TBolt nukes it

Gio #1 (31): DEdge 2HKOs Persian

Erika(31): Peck 2HKOs Poison-types and 3HKOs Tangela

Gio #2 (42): Double-Edge 2HKOs Queen and OHKOs the others bar Rhyhorn

Koga(43): outspeeds and OHKOs everything with Drill Peck, though Moth is rolls

Sabrina(48): outspeeds and OHKOs everything with DEdge

Blaine(48): outspeeds and 2HKOs Ninetales and Rapidash with Drill Peck. Arcanine is outsped, but 3HKOed

Gio #3 (48): beats Dugtrio and Persian

Lorelei(53): DEdge 2HKOs Dewgong and OHKOs Jynx. Don't bother with the rest

Bruno(53): beats all Fighting-types

Agatha(53): Drill Peck 2HKOs everything


keep same tier
If I have to be honest, Spearow acts a lot more like a B-tier in this game, mainly cause it maintains a consistent performance here. With that said, Fearow does what it does in RB, which is spam Drill Peck or DEdge, though Koga is now a better matchup for it. The fact it can easily sweep Sabrina is a definitive plus. I'd say Spearow can *probably* remain in B, albeit barely, due to the fact the performances are simlar enough, though I'd still say low B.

Misty(20): if you sequence break, you can get it to level 20 without battling any trainer post-Misty. Seismic Toss 3HKOs Starmie, while its Bubble Beam is a 4HKO

Erika(31): Confusion 2HKOs Poison-types and 3-4HKOs Tangela. Bar status, you are not threatened whatsoever

Gio #2 (42): spam Psychic

Koga(43): spam Psychic. Moth is faster and 2HKOed, but doesn't do much to you

Sabrina(47): Headbutt OHKOs Abra, 2HKOs Kadabra, and 3HKOs Zam. Zam should be put to sleep with Hypnosis

Blaine(47): Psychic seems to 3HKO everything, with Flamethrowers being around 3-4HKO. Only Fire Spin is *really* annoying

Gio #3 (48): Psychic OHKOs Nidos and 2HKOs the rest. Nidoqueen and Rhydon are slower. Persian's Screech can cause it problems later on. If Hypno took an EQ from King, it can live all but EQ from Rhydon

Lorelei(53): Psychic 2HKOs Dewgong and Cloyster and 3HKOs Lapras. Headbutt 3HKOs Jynx and can be used to muscle through Slowbro if put to sleep

Bruno(53): spam... Confusion

Agatha(53): Psychic 2HKOs Gengar and OHKOs the rest, though the Ghosts are faster

Lance(53): Psychic 2HKOs Dragonair and Aerodactyl, though Aero's Hyper Beam is a 2HKO.

Blue(54): Psychic 2HKOs Sandslash, Magneton, and Cloyster and you can beat all of them at once reasonably

keep same tier

A Psychic that learns Psychic by level still remains useful even here. While the game is harsher on special attackers, you still OHKO and 2HKO often. Worth mentioning that, while I didn't use it, Dream Eater could be useful on this guy when you are forced to put something to sleep. I also didn't use Tri Attack because I was too lazy, but it shouldn't have changed too much. Drowzee also comes at higher levels (15, 17, or 19), which basically solves its biggest issue (which is the pre-Confusion period)

TMs used: SD, Body Slam, Mega Drain

Erika(31): if you took the SD TM, you can spam it on Tangela and spam Body Slam after that

Giovanni #2 (41): Mega Drain OHKOs Rhyhorn, while +2 Body Slam handles the rest

Koga(43): put Venonat to sleep and spam SD. Body Slam will 2HKO Moth and OHKO the rest, while being outsped only by the latter

Sabrina(47): put Abra to sleep if you don't get an accuracy drop and spam SD to the max so you can outspeed Kadabra. Zam outspeeds anyways, but everything dies to Body Slam this way

Blaine(47): put Ninetales to sleep (Flamethrower is 2HKO) and spam SD to the max. Body Slam then OHKOs Rapidash (seems to be rolls) and 2HKOs the rest. You also outspeed the stuff after setting SD to the max, so you can put them to sleep.

Gio #3 (48): +1 Mega Drain 3HKOs Persian and Nidos and OHKOs the rest

Lorelei(53): put Dewgong to sleep and set up two Growths. Mega Drain 2HKOs Dewgong, Slowbro, and Lapras and OHKOs Cloyster. Body Slam with badge boosts 2HKOs Jynx while outspeeding

Bruno(53): +2 Mega Drain OHKOs Onix and Hitmons and can be used to muscle through Machamp, though you are better off putting it to sleep first

Agatha(53): yeah, didn't bother here

Lance(53): you can spam Growth for badge boosts and spam appropriate move, but otherwise, nope

Blue(53): you can put Sandslash to sleep and set up Growth to the max. You can then sweep with appropriate move.


keep same tier
Tangela comes earlier this time, with its availability being the Safari Zone. You still have to spam SD or Growth while putting things to sleep to make it work, so it really shouldn't change tiers.

TMs used: EQ, Rock Slide

Gio #2 (42): spam EQ

Koga(43): if you didn't take the traded one, which comes post-Surf, Rock Slide OHKOs everything, with EQ OHKOing Venonat

Sabrina(48): EQ OHKOs everything, though you are slower. Kadabra's X Defend is useless here

Blaine(48): EQ OHKOs everything, though you are slower

Gio #3 (49): EQ puts Rhydon in red and OHKOs the rest. Avoid Persian due to Screech, though

Lorelei(52): Rock Slide OHKOs Jynx and Dewgong and 2HKOs the other Ice-types, though all outspeed and hit it hard, so it won't be doing much

Bruno(53): EQ OHKO Hitmonlee and 2HKOs Chan and Machamp. Surf OHKOs Onix. Watch out for Fighting moves

Agatha(53): super effective moves OHKO everything, though you are slower

Lance(54): EQ OHKOs Dragonair, though Bubble Beam 2HKOs it. Aero also dies to Rock Slide. DNite is 2HKOed, but KOs with Blizzard

Blue(55): beats Magneton and Flareon easily. Eggy spams Leech Seed on you, so spam Rock Slide. Zam is OHKOed by EQ if it doesn't go for Reflect


keep same tier
Rhydon's powerful attacks are incredibly valuable here, as you can OHKO opponents like Blaine, which for this game is quite rare. Furthermore, you can obtain it from an in-game trade from Pokemon Lab. The only caveat is that you have to trade a Golduck, so you are either grinding a Psyduck or you catch an underleveled Golduck, though I'd say if you don't care about the Koga mathcup, this Rhydon is worth it.


===
some things I need to mention:

  • I am not gonna bother with the other late-game Water-types, including Staryu and Seel. The reason is that, at this point, they can be theorymonned quite easily, considering I tested Tentacool (a representative of the "high Special" group) and Seadra (a representative of the "lower Special" group). However, there are some things that I need to mention while I am it:
    • Psyduck is D-tier in Yellow due to being a post-Surf Pokemon only and coming very underleveled. If this is valid enough to keep it D-tier there, then I'd argue Slowpoke (Y) should also be added to D-tier, because it's in a similar situation; it comes only with Surf and is underleveled. You can catch a Slowbro at level 31 at Seafoam Islands, but it's only 1% and Slowpoke also comes at level 31 there, making it harder to repel trick. Considering that Slowpoke is even worse than Psyduck on its own, it should be added there for consistency

    • Shellder can come at a higher level than usual, for whatever reason. Basically, it's a 60% encounter and can come at levels 20, 30, and 40. I want to try finding myself one before I say if you should go for a higher leveled one, but, based on my overall knowledge of the games, the 40 is likely very rare. If it is not, mayyybe a split can happen here. If not, then they should remain the same tier

    • Poliwag also comes at somewhat higher levels (like 30 or 35, idr which one exactly), though its biggest issue, which is that you have to spam Amnesia to deal damage, will likely remain, so I think it's fine in C regardless
  • Venonat comes a lot earlier in Yellow, appearing on Route 24. However, I used it in one of my runs and it proved pretty much useless for the new fights. I have logs for those fights, if needed, but tl;dr it sucks there. Don't split them

  • Growlithe (Y) should be dropped to D-tier, because it comes at the Pokemon Mansion now. I could test it, if needed, but I can honestly tell you right away what it's going to do: it will be useful for Blaine with Dig and Sabrina with Double-Edge, will suck against Giovanni #3, will be useful for Agatha with Dig, and for the rest, it will spam Fire Blast where possible.

  • Vulpix also has a bit of a worse availability. It is now at the Rocket Game Corner for 1000 coins, though you can pick up like 270 for free, so you need around 730 only. Should this alone drop it to D-tier? The amount of purchases needed are around 14-15, for the record.
I am pretty close to finishing Yellow. Hopefully, I will bring results as fast as I can, so we can move to write-ups soon enough!

e: Gio #1 and #2 are missing in some logs, this is intentional, as I write them only for non-obvious matchups out of laziness.
 
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Machamp (48): Machamp OHKOs Rhyhorn and 2HKOs Rhydon with Submission. Machamp 2HKOs Nidoking and Nidoqueen with Mega Kick + Mega Punch. Machamp OHKOs Dugtrio with Mega Punch. It must be noted that Dugtrio can use Growl and Sand Attack and disrupt the sweep since Dugtrio is faster. A Ground TM achieves OHKOs against everyone except Rhydon, who is a OHKO. Overall a Ground TM allows a reliable sweep, but it's otherwise possible without it.

Golem (49): Golem OHKOs Rhyhorn, Dugtrio, Nidoqueen and Nidoking with Earthquake. Golem 2HKOs Rhydon with Earthquake. Dugtrio 4HKOs with Dig. Trivial match-up.

Cloyster (46): Cloyster OHKOs Rhyhorn, 2HKOs Dugtrio and Rhydon, and 3HKOs Nidoqueen and Nidoking with Clamp. Trivial match-up.

Clefable (52): Clefable 2HKOs Rhyhorn with Submission. Clefable OHKOs Dugtrio with Mega Punch. Clefable 2HKOs Nidoqueen and Nidoking with Mega Punch. Clefable sadly 3-4HKOs Rhydon with Submission, the first time Clefable doesn't achieve a 2HKO at worst and where a Water TM is recommended to improve the match-up. It doesn't matter all that much considering that Reflect!Clefable is 11HKOd by Rhydon (or it can just use Sing), but it had been a perfect record so far. Is this the beginning of the end of Clefable's reign? Oh well :/


Machamp (48): Machamp 2HKOs Pidgeot with Mega Kick + Mega Punch. Machamp OHKOs Rhyhorn with Submission. Machamp 2HKOs Gyarados with Mega Kick + Mega Punch. Machamp OHKOs Growlithe and Alakazam with Mega Kick, although Alakazam outspeeds and brings Machamp to Red with Psychic. Machamp 2HKOs Venusaur, although Venusaur outspeeds and can seriously damage with Razor Leaf. The Rock Slide TM misses out on the OHKO against Pidgeot and Gyarados, although it could help at a higher level. Overall, Machamp can take on anyone 1 v 1, but it can't really sweep because of the special attacks.

Golem (49): Golem 2HKOs Pidgeot with Mega Kick + Mega Punch, and OHKOs Rhyhorn with Earthquake. Golem needs two Mega Kicks to defeat Gyarados, while it OHKOs Golem with Hydro Pump. Golem OHKOs Growlithe and Alakazam with Earthquake. Golem is OHKO'd by Vine Whip. Golem can OHKO Gyarados and Pidgeot with the Rock Slide TM, although Gyarados is faster than Golem. It can take out four out of six Pokémon by itself, making for an okay match-up.

Cloyster (46): Cloyster 2HKOs Pidgeot with Aurora Beam. Cloyster OHKOs Rhyhorn with Clamp. Cloyster 3-4HKOs Gyarados and 2HKOs Alakazam with Take Down. Cloyster 3HKOs Venusaur with Aurora Beam. Cloyster OHKOs Pidgeot with Blizzard, yet it's still a 2HKO to Venusaur (however, Blizzard + Aurora Beam KOs Venusaur), while Venusaur 3HKOs with Vine Whip and OHKOs with Razor Leaf. Not a very good match-up but it can at least take out half of its team reliably.

Clefable (52): Clefable can 2HKO Pidgeot, Gyarados and Venusaur with Mega Kick + Mega Punch. Clefable can OHKO Growlithe and Alakazam with one Mega Kick. Clefable can 2HKO Rhyhorn with Submission. The biggest threats are the rival's starter and Alakazam, who can inflict significant damage. Reflect or Sing can help, but a sweep is definitely very possible even without the special TMs.


Machamp (49): Machamp OHKOs Dewgong with Submission. Machamp 2HKOs Cloyster and Lapras with Submission. Machamp has a free win against Slowbro because it won't attack. Machamp can OHKO Jynx with Mega Kick. Overall a relatively doable sweep, otherwise disrupted by Cloyster's Supersonic.

Golem (51): Golem 2HKOs Dewgong with Earthquake, but is 2HKOd back by Aurora Beam. Golem is outsped and 2HKOd by Cloyster's Clamp. Golem 3HKOs Slowbro with Earthquake, but Slowbro can use Withdraw or 2HKO with... Water Gun. Golem 3HKOs Lapras with Earthquake while Lapras... well, it has Hydro Pump.

Cloyster (48): Cloyster 4HKOs Dewgong with Take Down. The match-up doesn't go much better from there, but at least it can 2HKO Jynx with Take Down.

Clefable (54): Clefable can 2HKO Dewgong, 3HKO Cloyster, Slowbro and Lapras, and OHKO Jynx with Mega Kick. The problem, naturally, is that Mega Kick only has 5 PP. An Electric TM is necessary for an efficient sweep (it's a 2HKO to Dewgong, Cloyster, Slowbro and Lapras with Thunderbolt), but Clefable can take on anyone 1 vs 1 nevertheless.


Clefable (54): Clefable can OHKO Hitmonlee with Mega Kick and 2HKO Hitmonchan with two Mega Punches. Clefable can also 2HKO Machamp with two Mega Kicks. Onix can be dealt with Submission.

Cloyster (48): Cloyster can OHKO Onix, and 2HKO Hitmonlee and Hitmonchan with Aurora Beam, though is a 4HKO against Machamp. Blizzard OHKOs Hitmonlee and Hitmonchan, and 2HKOs Machamp, so the Blizzard TM is needed for an efficient sweep.

Machamp (50): Machamp 2HKOs Onix with Submission + Seismic Toss. Machamp 2HKOs Hitmonlee and Hitmonchan with Mega Kick + Mega Punch. Machamp barely 2HKOs Machamp with two Mega Kicks (it is a range).

Golem (51): Golem OHKOs Onix and Hitmonlee with Earthquake. Golem 2HKOs Hitmonchan and Machamp with Earthquake.


Clefable (54): This match-up is sad without a special TM, but Clefable will at least 2HKO Golbat and Arbok. With the Psychic TM, it misses out on a 2HKO against Gengar by very little, and 2HKOs Haunter, Arbok and Golbat. Clefable needs the Psychic TM for a possible sweep, which is shaky because of status.

Golem (51): Earthquake OHKOs everyone except Golbat, who can be defeated by the combination of Mega Kick + Mega Punch, or a OHKO by the Rock Slide TM.

Cloyster (48): Cloyster 5HKOs Gengar with Aurora Beam, 4HKOs Haunter, 2HKOs Golbat and 3HKOs Arbok. Cloyster 3HKOs Gengar, 2HKOs Haunter and Arbok, and OHKOs Golbat with Blizzard. A sweep is unlikely, though Blizzard enables Cloyster to take on three of Agatha's mons.

Machamp (50): Seismic Toss 3HKOs Gengar and Haunter. Mega Kick + Mega Punch dispatches Golbat and Arbok, although Wing Attack inflicts significant damage. Because of status moves, a sweep is pretty unlikely without item support or TMs, but it can take 1 vs 1 on an anyone nevertheless. With Earthquake, Machamp OHKOs everyone except for Golbat, making its use essential for Machamp's efficiency.

Clefable (55): Mega Kick 2HKOs Gyarados and 3HKOs Dragonite. Dragonair gets 2HKOd by Mega Punch. Submission 4HKOs Aerodactyl. Without TMs, a sweep is very unlikely. Mega Kick's 5 PPs can be used for Gyarados and Dragonite exclusively, but Gyarados 3HKOs with Hydro Pump, and even with Reflect, Dragon Rage can wear down Clefable easily. With TMs, Thunderbolt misses out the OHKO against Gyarados by very little. Blizzard OHKOs Aerodactyl, Dragonair and Dragonite, while Ice Beam is a 2HKO.

Golem (51): Gyarados is a hopeless battle. Earthquake 2HKOs Dragonite. Mega Kick 4HKOs Aerodactyl and 3HKOs Dragonite. With the Rock Slide TM, Golem achieves 2HKOs against the latter two, making it necessary for a decent match-up against it. The Rock-typing makes it resilient against Hyper Beam.

Cloyster (49): It 5HKOs Gyarados with Aurora Beam while getting defeated by Dragon Rage. Aurora Beam 2HKOs everything else - if you take Gyarados out, Cloyster can sweep the rest because of its high physical defense. Ice Beam is a 4HKO against Gyarados, a 2HKO against Aerodactyl, and a OHKO against Dragonair and Dragonite. Blizzard 3HKOs Gyarados and OHKOs Aerodactyl.

Machamp (50): Mega Kick can 2HKO Gyarados. Submission can 2HKO Aerodactyl. Dragonair and Dragonite are free wins because of the AI. The Rock Slide TM doesn't turn any 2HKO into OHKO.

Clefable (55): Mega Kick 2HKOs Pidgeot, Gyarados, Arcanine and OHKOs Alakazam, but fails to 2HKO Venusaur. Clefable 4HKOs Rhydon with Submission. Blizzard 2HKOs Pidgeot and Venusaur, and OHKOs Rhydon. Thunderbolt OHKOs Gyarados. Overall, a sweep is possible with the Blizzard TM. Without it, Clefable can take on any of Blue's mons by itself, but lacks enough PPs to sweep more than three Pokémon efficiently (one of them which has to be Alakazam). The Reflect TM helps a lot against Pidgeot, Rhydon, Gyarados and Arcanine if more than one Pokémon is faced.

Golem (52): Golem fails to 2HKO Pidgeot with two Mega Kicks, but it reaches it with Rock Slide. Golem OHKOs Alakazam and 2HKOs Rhydon and Arcanine with Earthquake. Gyarados and Venusaur are lost causes. It should have a better time if the player didn't pick Squirtle.

Cloyster (49): Cloyster 2HKOs Pidgeot, Rhydon and 6HKOs Gyarados with Aurora Beam, 4HKOs Arcanine with Clamp, and 2HKOs Alakazam with Take Down. Venusaur is a hopeless battle. It's better for players that didn't pick Squirtle as the starter since Exeggutor lacks Grass-type moves. Blizzard OHKOs Pidgeot and Rhydon, and 3HKOs Gyarados.

Machamp (51): Machamp fails to 2HKO Pidgeot, Arcanine, Venusaur and Gyarados with two Mega Kicks, but it reaches the 2HKO against Pidgeot and Gyarados with Rock Slide. Machamp OHKOs Alakazam with Mega Kick, and 2HKOs Rhydon with Submission. Sky Attack and Psychic-type attacks are naturally huge deterrents, and a sweep is not possible.

Results:

- Yep, Giovanni marked the end of Clefable's perfect streak, and it doesn't go much better after that. I think that Clefable should receive some credit on the fact that it still manages to nab numerous 2HKOs just with basic equipment, something that other members of the team can't claim, which convinces me that Clefable is indeed superior. Being a Normal-type gives it the advantage that it lacks weaknesses (other than Fighting-type mons). It can take on Alakazam and Gyarados, something that the Nidos aren't probably the best at. I think Clefable fits the definition of an S Tier. It starts out excellent thanks to its early evolution, and OHKOs or 2HKOs most enemies effortlessly with basic equipment until the end of the game thanks to Normal STAB and the Fast leveling rate. The only mons that Clefable can't 2HKO without elemental TMs are: Rhydon, Lapras, Haunter, Gengar, Aerodactyl, Dragonite, and the rival's starter at the final battle. It's also noteworthy that Clefable is super flexible and can take on a select type of enemies with any of the elemental TMs if you have nobody else to fill the job.

- Cloyster has been a disappointment, since I expected more from Water/Ice STAB and 180 Defense. I think that the Slow leveling rate hinders it more than it's given credit for since it should theoretically get KOs with Aurora Beam just fine, it just happens that it's underleveled and doesn't have the power, thus needing Blizzard (which is fine). I think it got dropped to C on the time it took me to complete this test, and I'll agree with that sentiment - Water still defeats Blaine and Giovanni, Ice still defeats Lance and flying-types, getting past Rhydon is a good thing, it still can 2HKO Jynx with Take Down. C Tier

- Machamp was better than I expected, honestly. Other than the final bosses, it doesn't really need Rock Slide | Earthquake until the final bosses, and only select enemies that can be covered by someone else. The Lance match-up was a surprising miracle, too. It lacks the potential to reach OHKOs though, so there's that as a negative. I'd say B, but then I remember the atrocious beginning, so C fits better. I imagine Yellow rectifies this, so I can imagine how Yellow Machamp can be a tier higher.

- oh boy, natural Earthquake with Golem was super sweet, it's honestly grass and water mons that hinder it from sweeping major battles but it's honestly much better than expected otherwise. Rock also resists the numerous Normal-type attacks, too. B Tier

 
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Ryota Mitarai

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Did a quick and dirty test with Nidoqueen / Clefable / Ninetales / Pinsir. I have logs only for those parts that I found notable enough to log, can share them if necessary.

Nidoqueen -> keep same tier
Nidoqueen, for most parts, is a bit worse here, mainly due to increased bulk (though it's not *bad*, just not as strong as in RB). However, Nidoran-F is one of the only Pokemon that can beat Brock in Yellow, alongside Mankey and Nidoran-M. Getting to level 12 is very easy, as Medium Slow Pokemon level up very quickly in the earlier levels (I think it's particularly fast till level 16?). And even then, it still does things like OHKO Blaine's mons. The TM dependency here is slightly bigger, but Nidoqueen is still a strong performer even without them. Only needs EQ, as always

Clefable -> keep same tier
Similarly to Nidoqueen, Clef is slightly worse here, as I found myself needing Sing a lot more and wishing for TMs more. However, extrapolated, the performance is the same (OHKOs in RB are 2HKOs in Y and so on), though it still OHKOs some things. The TM dependency is, yet again, slightly bigger here, but considering that Clefable performs well against anything with the correct TM, I think keeping it in S is fine, considering Clefable can be assembled into a tool that deals with whatever your team cannot deal with.

Ninetales -> keep same tier
This assumes that the new availability doesn't really drop it a tier below. Flamethrower is a bit more useful here due to Koga's Bug army, but, otherwise, you have the same performance, more or less. So, keep in same tier, if the availability isn't an issue

Pinsir -> keep same tier
Same issues are here: it's a hassle to get, it's a mon in the Slow Exp. group, and sometimes requires more than one SD to sweep (and it's all around dependent on setting up). Keep D-tier, usable, but requires a lot of effort to be obtained and to perform well.

I also tried the Shellder thing. From 20 successful attempts, around 4-5 were level 40, around 4 were level 30, and the rest were either level 20 or Tentacool. This does not include the failed attempts, where I reeled in nothing

I tried another 20 sequences:

1 - Shellder (30)
2 - Shellder (20)
3 - Shellder (40)
4 - Tentacool
5 - Shellder (20)
6 - Shellder (20)
7 - Shellder (20)
8 - Shellder (20)
9 - Shellder (30)
10 - Shellder (30)
11 - Tentacool
12 - Shellder (20)
13 - Shellder (30)
14 - Shellder (30)
15 - Shellder (40)
16 - Shellder (30)
17 - Tentacool
18 - Tentacool
19 - Tentacool
20 - Tentacool


in the second sequence series, level 40 Shellder appears only twice out of 20 successful reels. Note that I also had many unsuccessful ones. Based on this data, it looks like the level 40 Shellders are very uncommon, though they don't look insanely rare, given I obtained few of them in my first sequence series, though I might have been lucky. I don't really have a table with the exact percentages for the reels, unfortunately, so I had to do this

Here is a list of Pokemon that I am not planning on testing in Yellow with justifications. If you really want me to test something from there, let me know and mention what you think would be different (so I can confirm it):

- Pidgey, Paras, Zubat (all only benefit from Koga and do the same things elsewhere)
- Caterpie (used it for Brock, otherwise, it should be the same elsewhere)
- Nidoran-M (I used Nidoran-F, so this one should be similar)
- Oddish (couldn't find any matchups that were inherently better)
- Venonat (used the early-game one for that time, sucked)
- Growlithe (I feel like I already know how it's gonna perform)
- No Trade mons (they all performed similarly to their evos in RB)
- Onix, Hitmonchan, Cubone (I really don't think the game is better for them at all. At most I could test Hitmonchan to see if it's E in Yellow, but ehhh)
- Tauros (used Kangaskhan)
- Moltres, Ditto, Dratini and Porygon (former is just late, Ditto is Ditto, Dratini is just a worse Surfer yet again, and Porygon is just "[insert TM here] allows it to perform well against [X]")
- most late-game Waters, since I used Seadra and Tentacool and those can serve for logs. They shouldn't really differ


as I mentioned in this list and in my previous post, I don't think it's necessary to test the other late-game Water-types, because they will perform very similarly to Tentacool if they have a high Special or to Seadra if they have lower Special. Regardless, most of them are like "Surf kills Bruno, Giovanni, and Blaine". Staryu is the obvious exception due to TMs and Seel is "oh wow, this levels up fast" + STAB Ice for Lance.

I honestly think this is ready for write-ups, unless anything I skipped in Yellow needs a testing or we want to confirm tiers for Yellow. I think all the splits that currently remain are fair and we only have to decide about Psyduck / Slowpoke, Growlithe, Vulpix, Voltorb, and Grimer from my runs before I can say that my testing for this list is officially over.
 
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