Pokemon FireRed and LeafGreen In-Game Tier List

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Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
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given that the B-tier nominations have been coming in higher numbers over the course of the thread's lifespan, I will slate Bulbasaur for a drop to B-tier, which will take place on Sunday EST time.

If you would like to test Bulbasaur (and you haven't), please make your intentions here clear and I will extend the time for you.

In the meantime, I am still looking for more thoughts on Hitmonlee, Dratini, and Tentacool. Preferably Psyduck and Slowpoke too, especially the latter, mainly to have more data on those and make sure B-tier is good for them.

Sunday edit: will apply it when I wake up because I forgot to move it and am already in bed
 
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Not far in the game, only just beat Misty, but Oddish is looking strong. Managed to solo her at 18 with just 1 super potion. Pikachu, meanwhile, couldn't 2HKO Starmie while being 2 hit at 19.
Oddish and Bellsprout are designed to be there to allow an easier time with Misty if the player selected Charmander, otherwise your only other options would be to take her down with numbers or a Pikachu with team effort.


Pikachu doesn't do too hot here but I did manage to sweep her.

Pikachu (21): Not really a clear cut sweep but it is doable. Thundershock Staryu (this is a 2HKO). You need to have Staryu use Harden (you outspeed). One the following turn use Double Team for the eventual Starmie MU. TShock twice to KO Staryu. Starmie outspeeds so hopefully that Water Pulse misses first turn. TWave to rob it of it's Speed and hope if gets fully Paralyzed. TShock is a 3HKO. Not a good MU as you can see how much has to go right.
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributor
so this thread has been dead for quite a bit, for which I apologize, due to me focusing on other lists / things in general

I will do a run with Dratini and Tentacool. Dratini will be a final decision, Tentacool maybe not, I will most likely want more opinions on it if I don't feel confident with B-tier.
 
I've already ran these mons and posted logs but I want to say a few things.

For Tentacruel, I'd advice using it for Sabrina and making sure it outspeeds Alakazam (it has around 100 Speed iirc) as despite being weak to Psychic, it wins vs Sabrina more often than not. As for Bruno, Barrier and Clear Body are important to have to sweep reliably Bruno. I'd say the adeuate moveset is Surf/Ice Beam/Giga Drain/Barrier with Clear Body as an ability. Overall, I feel doing classic water-type stuff (beating Blaine and Giovanni while having a solid Lance performance), better matchup against Sabrina and especially Bruno, small contribution against Lorelei (beating Dewgong+Cloyster) combined with great availability and possibility to use Repel Trick on it is enough to push it to B-tier as it's clearly above generic water-types.

For Dratini, I'd advice using Dragon Rage for Erika, Koga (it 2HKOes Koffing) and Sabrina (it 2HKOes Kadabra and Mr.Mime) and keeping Agility to make sure to sweep Blaine. For the E4, the ideal moveset seems to be Fly/Surf/Thunderbolt/Dragon Claw. You can tailor it but this seems a bit unnessary. Colteor's logs provide great informations for it. Despite the slow growth rate and availaibility problem, training Dratini is alright thanks to Dragon Rage. Gym performance are mostly fine honestly even as Dragonair. Erika is pretty good thanks to Shed Skin, Koga is fairly nice outside of Muk, Sabrina is alright, Giovanni is great and Blaine is a sweep. Dragonite is a monster for the league and will only require one contested TM in Thunderbolt (nothing needs Dragon Claw really). Lorelei is surprisingly solid thanks to Thunderbolt, Ice Beam not OHKOing and bad AI. Bruno is a clean sweep. Agatha is great, even though it require lucks. Against Lance, Dragonite will beat everything but either Dragonite or Aerodactyl (or outright win with 2 Full Restore). Champion is especially strong as it wins against Pidgeot, the FGW core and Rhydon, with only Alakazam potentially being a problem according to what it uses and a sweep is nearly guaranteed with a Full Restore. Usability as a Dragonair coupled with incredible league performance and the requirement of only 1 TM in Thunderbolt make me feel C-tier is good for it.

Otherwise, outside of maybe Hitmonlee and Drowzee, I don't think any mon will get contested as they are mostly trivial.
 
Running with Nidoking, Drowzee, Exeggcute, Slowpoke, and Psyduck (I had one hacked one into FireRed), at Lavender Town, quick thoughts:

Nidoking is interesting. My impression from Route 3 and Mt. Moon is Nidoran-M takes a tiny bit to get off the ground (mostly because Horn Attack actually comes later than in RBY, in FRLG you get it at level 22 as Nidorino), but as King it has borderline impenetrable bulk, so even the 2HKOs it misses like Poisons and Voltorb it can afford to miss.

I'm sure it's obvious it dominates earlygame as King if you evolve right away, and it is true to some extent, though it loses to Misty's Starmie despite beating Lt. Surge. King on the field is actually something I want to bring up, as unless you wait for Horn Attack as Nidorino, you have the choice between Thrash (a gamble when you can still miss OHKOs on things like Machop or Shellder IIRC as a lot of trainers have three Pokemon) or the STAB but two-turn Dig or the weaker Double Kick. Basically, you chose going slower with Dig or Double Kick or risking mid-battle confusion - either way, it's mildly annoying. I'm sure this problem will be remedied with Surf / Ice Beam, Strength or whatever come online though. Leaning toward A right now, but not ruling out B based on Queen experiences.

Drowzee is...slow to start out. Once you get it to level 20, you start outspeeding mooks and that's helpful. Headbutt tends to be better than Confusion. It performs ok for Misty and pretty good for Lt. Surge but has been kinda meh on the field before Hypno came around (and even Hypno has only modest offenses), I imagine Psychic will make its usability spike dramatically.

Also, I have infinite TMs so Psychic or other TMs won't be contested among my party, don't worry (though I will still count TM reliance against mons).
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributor
so I did my run and have a lot to say about Dratini (Tentacool not so much because what I am gonna say about it isn't that long).

First of all, here are the logs:

Dragonite

Erika(30): Ice Beam OHKOes Tangela and 2HKOes the rest. Acid is a 4-5HKO on rolls. Shed Skin helps greatly here, assuming it triggers

Koga(43): Surf 2HKOes Koffing and 3HKOes Weezing. If you get lucky with AI and it doesn't Smokescreen you, you may actually do something here

Rival(43): Ice Beam 2HKOes Pidgeot and 3HKOes Venusaur. Surf OHKOes Growlithe. Thunderbolt OHKOes Gyarados. Avoid Alakazam

Sabrina(44): Return 2HKOes Zam, 3HKOes Moth, and OHKOes the rest. Alakazam is faster and will typically finish you off, unless you heal against Moth

Blaine(47): Surf 2HKOes the evolved stuff and OHKOes the rest. Sweep is easy, unless you get really unlucky with Bounce paralysis

Giovanni(50): Surf spam go brr, but know that Dugtrio is faster and the Nidos avoid an OHKO from Surf. This means that, depending on rolls, you may die to Nidoking

Lorelei(55): Thunderbolt OHKOes only Cloyster. Wing Attack 2HKOes Jynx, which promptly OHKOes with Ice Punch (full-power Return might be able to OHKO, but I forgot it because I had no room for Wing Attack). The rest are 2HKOed by Thunderbolt (bar maybe Lapras, which I didn't try, because it's obvious it's gonna kill you). Dewgong sometimes goes for Hail, but puts you in red with Ice Beam if it goes for that. Slowbro may go for Yawn (which stops your sweep) or for Amnesia, though its Ice Beam will finish you off, in most cases

Bruno(55): Ice Beam OHKOes Onix, Wing Attack 2HKOes Machamp and OHKOes Hitmons. No healing needed, even after Rock Tomb

Agatha(55): Dragonite is outsped by everything, except Arbok, which worsens this matchup. Ice Beam 2HKOes Golbat and Wing Attack 2HKOes the Ghosts, though Gegnar #2 avoids this with a Sitrus Berry. Arbok will 1v1 you, in most cases, as you will be weakened and can poison you. As a whole, luckfest

Lance(56): Ice Beam almost OHKOes Dragonair and 2HKOes Dragonite. TBolt OHKOes Gyarados. Dragon Claw will surely OHKO Dragonair. Avoid Aerodactyl


20 IVs everything, neutral nature. Note that Erika was done before Zebes told me about Dragon Rage, so I couldn't try it out myself, but I will explain why I think Ice Beam is strongly preferable to Dragon Rage

so we can all agree that Dratini has issues. And a lot of them. Let's explore them:

1. Availability
This one is probably the one that comes to everyone's mind. You either buy it for 2800/4600 coins or you go for the Safari Zone one. The latter is something I do NOT recommend whatsoever; it's got an 8% encounter rate with fishing (and fishing is probably the worst form of encounter in these games) and its catch rate isn't particularly attractive when all you have is Safari Balls.

Now that we have cleared out which is the better of the bad availabilities, let's talk about why the GC one is also fairly bad. Although not incredibly expensive in LG, it nevertheless costs a good chunk of money, which robs you off the chance to buy a GC TM upon arrival. This affects not only your team, but also Dratini, as it certainly appreciates a TM immediately to boost its power out of the box. Speaking of power...

2. Evolving it
This one is a pretty bad factor against Dratini. Dratini is pretty much awful until you evolve it into Dragonair and you will have to run back to the Pokemon Center fairly often. This theoritically can be fixed with a GC TM to give it the ability to OHKO a bit more often, but we already established that this is not happening (thus Surf is your only high-power move for a while).

Now, another issue is evolving Dragonair into Dragonite. Per the OP, the typical levels for the E4 are 50-54 and that's cause that are the levels most teams will reach, even with Rare Candies. Obviously, we are going to make an exception for Dratini, otherwise, the case for D-tier is pretty much set in stone.

Training Dratini, in general, is a bit of a pain because of the Slow growth rate. This also makes it particularly hard to evolve Dragonair into Dragonite at the League unless you dump a significant amount of Rare Candies onto it (assuming you get it to something like level 50 with an average team)

now, onto its perfomance:
FIrstly, I want to talk about Ice Beam vs Dragon Rage. The former is clearly better against Erika, because it kills faster than Dragon Rage (2HKOs and OHKO on Tangela vs 3HKOs and 2HKOs on Tangela). Dragon Rage is also likely to trigger potions, which will just prolong the fight. With that said, Shed Skin does make the fight not a total loss, but you do depend on luck to sweep. Even with Ice Beam, there's some luck to it, as Acid is a 4-5HKO on Dragonair, so if you get unlucky with paralysis, you might lose even with that advantage

Another benefit, as I mentioned earlier, is that you can use it to OHKO a bit more often, thus making the Dratini grind a bit less painful.

Now, after getting past Erika, you have some not-so-shabby perfomance, which was somewhat pleasant to me. Unfortunately, Blaine is the only fight where I managed to sweep consistently; Koga can potentially throw a Smokescreen at you (since you don't OHKO anything), Sabrina's Alakazam trashes Dragonair away, and Giovanni can end your sweep if they get particularly high rolls.

Now, at the Elite Four, we are going to assume Dragonite, since Dragonair is obviously gonna suck here. Lorelei is only a decent matchup if the AI derps, which makes the whole thing rather unreliable (I had Dewgong and Slowbro go straight for Ice Beam a few times when I tested). Bruno is a sweep with little difficulty. Agatha is a luckfest, since most of her Pokemon outspeed it and then proceed to hax it to death. Lance is a decent matchup where you can KO most of his Pokemon.

Looking at Dragonair's performance, it kind of resembles a generic Water-type in C-tier, but slightly worse in the mid-game and slightly better in the end-game; Dragonair's mid-game is certainly less consistent than that of a generic Water-type, but it also gets a few KOs more than your typical Water-type at the Elite Four.

My personal summary is that Dratini requires a lot of planning around it in order to make it optimal; you need to basically not rely on immediate GC TMs whatsoever, you need such a team that Dragonair gets to high levels by the Elite Four without dumping half your candies on it, and you need to somehowly grind it to level 30 when Dratini is far from a good route cleaner. After thinking about this for a bit, I will go with D-tier because I think this requires way too much investment compared to most Pokemon in C-tier.

===

For Tentacool, I won't make a long analysis, as I did with Dratini, but here are the logs:

Tentacruel 1

Rival(43): Ice Beam 2HKOes Pidgeot and Venusaur and 4HKOes Gyarados. Surf OHKOes Growlithe and 2HKOes Zam, even after a Calm Mind. Gyarados will force a healing, most likely

Sabrina(44): Surf 2HKOes everything. In most cases, the AI will derp and go for set up or Future Sight. Alakazam has to attack you, as Surf is a flat 2HKO (Psychic doesn't OHKO you). Moth deals no damage with Psybeam

Blaine and Giovanni: Surf spam go brr

Rival(50): Ice Beam 2HKOes Pidgeot, 3HKOes Venusaur, and 4HKOes Gyarados. Surf 2HKOes Alakazam and OHKOes the rest. Alakazam 2HKOes with Psychic, so you will need to heal. Gyarados is a safe option because it doesn't threaten you at all

Lorelei(55): I didn't have Giga Drain here, so obviously terrible matchup. You could try muscling through Jynx and Cloyster if you are desperate enough, I guess

Bruno(55): kill the Onix. Set up two Barriers against Hitmonchan and then Rain Dance to 2HKO the Hitmons. Machamp is 3HKOed (2HKO without berry) by Surf in rain. No healing required

Agatha(55/56): Surf 2HKOes Gengar #1 and Haunter, though Haunter Curses and forces you to switch out against Gengar #2. Bring Tentacruel back against Golbat or Arbok, set up a Barrier and 2HKO Golbat with Ice Beam and 3HKO Arbok with Surf

Lance(56): 2HKOes Dragons with Ice Beam and Aerodactyl with Surf. Barrier can help, but you will have to heal anyways, because of Thunder Wave. Avoid Gyarados

Rival(56/57): beats Pidgeot, Arcanine, and Rhydon


same as Dratini, 20 IVs, neutral nature. Giga Drain not being on the moveset was intentional, I was going for a Surf / Ice Beam / Rain Dance / Barrier set and Giga Drain doesn't look particularly needed on Tentacruel anyways

so my impression of Tentacool are somewhat mixed. It comes at a very high level, albeit somewhat late. It doesn't really have any terrible matchups beyond Lorelei, where you may be able to muscle through Jynx and Cloyster, but it's also not particularly fast in killing things at the E4. I am not 100% sold on B-tier just yet, but I cannot say I am too confident in dropping this to C-tier either, especially when the tally for Tentacool is (iirc) 3 votes for B-tier and one vote for C-tier. I will leave it open in case someone wants to test this further, so for now, I will play it safe and not touch it.

Now, I only need a final opinion on Hitmonlee (or Hitmonchan, but preferably Lee, unless you want to make a case about both being the same tier, which is a reasonable stance) and potentially more thoughts on Tentacool before I close this thread and move to write-ups, so if you have never tested Lee, feel free to give it a run and let me know what you think of it.
 
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Finished my run with Nidoran Male, Drowzee, Exeggcute Psyduck, Slowpoke.

Misty:
Nidoking (23): Outspend and OHKO Staryu with Thrash. Starmie outspeeds and roughly 2HKOs with Water Pulse and Water Pulse confusion is obnoxious while you seem to roughly 2HKO with Thrash. Decent.

Drowzee (23): Staryu used Harden turn 1, only for me to promptly crit with Headbutt and OHKO in one attempt. Sadly Staryu is faster so you’ll want to go with Confusion in case of Harden. Regardless, Confusion is a nice and easy 2HKO while Water Pulse does like 11 of your 65 HP, a 6HKO.

Starmie does roughly 15-17 damage with Water Pulse - a 4HKO - while you I believe 5HKO back with Headbutt. I think Swift does similar damage to Water Pulse but it’s uncommon Starmie uses it. I kept getting crits on her for some reason. Either way this is a little too slow to classify as reliable, especially when Misty has a Super Potion in the back. Kinda assuming with the stuff I saw you’re just not going to stand up to Starmie even if you both deal roughly equal damage.

Lt. Surge:
Hypno (26): Cheri Berry. Headbutt or Confusion 2HKOs Voltorb and it seems Confusion on rolls 2HKOs Pikachu - but it paralyzes with Thunder Wave. Headbutt OHKOs it seemingly but you risk Static. Raichu is 3HKOed by Headbutt (note Confusion does NOT 3HKO) and Double Team is obnoxious. First attempt I lost to Raichu. They don’t kill you fast but it’s difficult to sweep, though this was without Cheri Berry.

Amusingly, round 2 Raichu was hilarious. I poison it with Poison Gas despite Double Team (55 accuracy!)…only for Lt. Surge to Full Heal it off, only for said chip damage to make Headbutt basically 2HKO.

Third attempt went fine. It’s really a matter of Voltorb not using Sonicboom and having decent Raichu luck.

Nidoking (26): Cheri Berry. Dig OHKOs all three of his Pokemon. Thrash seems like a roll to OHKO Voltorb but OHKOs Pikachu. You’ll probably want to switch out / heal off confusion when Raichu comes out, but Thrash 2HKOs it. Still pretty great though seeing as they can’t really touch you.

Erika:
Exeggutor (30): Outspeeds and OHKOs her entire party with Psychic.
Hypno (34-35): Outspeeds and OHKOs her entire party with Psychic.
Nidoking (34): Cheri Berry. Outspeeds and OHKOs her entire party with Ice Beam sans Vileplume, who lives in red and does nothing back. Dig 2HKOs Victrebell but I think at a lower level (like, level 30 or so) you might not 2HKO. Seems similar for Tangela, you barely 2HKO with Strength after Ingrain damage. Vileplume is 2HKOed by Dig but Stun Spore makes this awkward (as Cheri Berry is used up on Bell) and Strength seems to 3HKO. Good.

Koga:
Nidoking (39): Koffing is knocked to red by Ice Beam. Muk is a pain due to Acid Armor and Minimize (I think you do 3/4 of its HP with Dig without him buffing, and after one Strength doesn’t pick up the kill). Switched out to a team member then back in for Koffing. Second Koffing again lives Ice Beam in red. Weezing is thankfully straightforward, 3HKOed by Ice Beam. Honestly think that while they can’t hurt you, you’re better off using something else rather than slugging it neutrally due to his debuffs. Koffing can Selfdestruct on Nidoking, but Weezing cannot.
Exeggutor (38): Outspeeds and OHKOs his entire party with Psychic bar Muk, who you want to Strength then Psychic to prevent a healing loop and thus give Minimize more chances to screw you over. Muk’s Sludge barely misses the 2HKO on Eggs but one round of poison can easily close the gap.
Hypno (39): Psychic OHKOs both Koffing, unlike Eggs Muk is not put in heal range by Psychic. However, Weezing IS put in heal range by Psychic. Still an easy sweep though, for some reason I think I kept critting Weezing.

Silph Rival:
Slowbro (42): I actually used Amnesia turns 1 and 2 because I want to handle Gyarados and Venusaur better. Pidgeot is an 8HKO with Wing Attack so lol there. Ice Beam actually comes pretty close to OHKOing Pidgeot as well.

Venusaur comes in and crits me out because of course it does. Upon Max Revive I see Razor Leaf actually did 61 damage of my 140 HP. I think it crit or got a high roll next turn as I died (Psychic takes Venusaur to red).

Amnesia helps for Gyarados’s Bite, but it can still flinch and Dragon Rage 4HKOs. Psychic does roughly half, but I got a Special Defense drop. Either way I’m pretty sure I healed again. So yeah, avoid Gyarados and Venusaur. Surf OHKOs Growlithe and actually still 2HKOs Zam even if uses Calm Mind once.

Golduck (42): Outspeeds Pidgeot but Ice Beam leaves it alive in red. You outspend and 2HKO Venusaur and I believe it 2HKOs you with Razor Leaf. Ice Beam 4HKOs Gyarados as it can potentially 4HKO you with Dragon Rage (healed up here). Surf OHKOs Growlithe and takes Zam to red, who derps.

Nidoking (42): Ice Beam knocks Pidgeot to red, you outspeed Alakazam and Strength knocks it to red as it Calm Minds, Gyarados and Growlithe die to Thunderbolt and Surf respectively, and Venusaur is 2HKOed by Ice Beam - it does like 1/3 to you with Razor Leaf and can put you to sleep though. Easy sweep, shows how effective Nidoking can be with the proper moves.

Hypno (42): SOMEHOW Psychic doesn’t 2HKO Pidgeot, which shocked me, but thankfully you are faster so Headbutt picks it off with you being at about 2/3s HP from two Wing Attacks. I 3HKO Gyarados, but thanks to a critical and another Bite use, I am in red as Growlithe comes in. I heal up to discover Psychic likely OHKOs Growlithe (had some Take Down recoil, does nothing to you). Alakazam comes in and Headbutt 3HKOs it. Venusaur comes in and is 2HKOed by Psychic while Insomnia trolls it. Decent, if a little slow to kill.

Exeggutor (42): Pidgeot outspeeds and leaves you around half HP as you take two Psychics to kill it. Gyarados crit me out with Bite.

One Max Revive later (yeah, not counting this as good) and it seems Dragon Rage 4HKOs you from full, though Leech Seed and Giga Drain can help here (I think Drain is barely a 3HKO). Bite from Gyarados does like 30 damage (a 5HKO with your roughly 140 HP). Growlithe comes in again and I’m low on health. I heal up to discover Growlithe’s Flame Wheel is a 3HKO, BUT you outspend and OHKO with Psychic which is nice.

Venusaur is like…a 7HKO with resisted Razor Leaf so you can definitely heal up here and it seems like Psychic actually OHKOs (I don’t think I rolled a critical hit) which surprised me given Venusaur’s bulk. Now at half HP. Alakazam comes in, and Strength 2HKOs while it derps.

So, on the whole, probably avoid Gyarados and maybe Pidgeot, but you can definitely take the others with no issue.

Sabrina:
Slowbro (44): Surf OHKOed Kadabra which I was surprised by (it used Future Sight). Venomoth I think crit with Leech Life and only did like 28 HP lol (it dies to Psychic). Mr. Mime is 2HKOed by Surf, but somehow the AI went to 50,000 IQ and Baton Passed Barrier to Alakazam, which would almost make me crap my pants if it wasn’t 2HKOed. Mime comes out and dies to Surf, I finish the fight at 1/3 HP. Second time around I tried Amnesia and ended at half HP (Mime didn’t Baton Pass this time). Pretty reliable.

Golduck (44): Surf OHKOs Kadabra and 2HKOs Mr. Mime and Venomoth. Alakazam is likely to beat you, as it using Calm Mind once turns Surf into a 3HKO prompting a heal loop and +1 Psychic does like 3/4s of your HP.

HOWEVER, on my second attempt Venomoth got locked into the heal loop after Surf took it to red. Strength solves the Zam situation as you 2HKO before it can finish you off.

Nidoking (44): Strength OHKOs Kadabra and 2HKOs Mr. Mime despite Barrier (you outspeed both). Alakazam is knocked to heal range and derps with CM and Future Sight. However, Zam outspeeds and if it DOES go for unboosted Psychic you could die (I lived with 5 HP). Venomoth is 2HKOed by Strength (does just shy of a 4HKO with Psybeam). If you have it, Megahorn OHKOs both Mr. Mime and Alakazam. Pretty great, maybe avoid Zam though.

Hypno (44): Meditate as Kadabra Calm Minds, then OHKO it with Headbutt. Venomoth is OHKOed by Psychic. Mr. Mime lived +1 Headbutt in red but I got a lucky flinch. Alakazam was almost taken to red by +1 Headbutt, but not even +1 Psychic scratches Hypno. I think only Zam outspeeds you.

Exeggutor (44): Kadabra outspeeds but is OHKOed by Strength. Believe it or not, you actually outspeed and OHKO Venomoth with Psychic. Strength sends Mr. Mime into a heal loop (you outspeed). Zam outspeeds, but Psychic only 4HKOs as you knock it to low yellow. Easy sweep.

Blaine:
Slowbro (46): Calm Mind on Growlithe as it uses Bite, you should be at 2/3s HP when you KO it. Arcanine came out and flinched me to death. RELOAD. Attempt 2 I got flinched like crazy but still somehow swept (!) ending at like 8 HP (Misclicked CM once but I flinched that turn).

Okay, testing this without boosts, it surprised me that Slowbro actually OHKOs Blaine’s entire team with Surf (I thought Arcanine would live). It is for sure a damage race as you will likely always end in red HP and Arcanine’s Bite I believe does 1/3. You absolutely cannot flinch against Arcanine or you just kinda die.

Golduck (46): Outspeed and OHKO his entire team with Surf: you need a high roll on Arcanine to OHKO it, but it doesn’t seem to threaten you.

Nidoking (46): Outspeed and OHKO Growlithe and Ponyta with Surf: outspeed and knock Rapidash to heal range with Surf as it does 1/3 with Fire Blast (you can use Strength to get it in range of a KO with Surf). Outspeed and 2HKO Arcanine with Surf but it is VERY likely you can die - I lived Fire Blast (2HKO) at one HP. In the second attempt I got burned by Rapidash’s Fire Blast but Arcanine whiffed. Seems pretty reliable but Arcanine will definitely hurt.

Hypno (46): Calm Minding to +1 kills Growlithe and Ponyta with Psychic but leaves both Arcanine and Rapidash alive, 2HKOing the latter two. Much to my shock, not even +3 PSYCHIC OHKOs Arcanine, leaving it with a sliver of red HP. Boosting can also be problematic if Growlithe rolls a Fire Blast burn.

You’re best off boosting to +1 and hoping for the best. If Arcanine rolls a critical hit on Fire Blast, say goodbye to like 85% of your HP. Despite all this though, a sweep seems possible - only Rapidash outspeeds you and Blaine can also whiff too. You can probably do this without needing to heal.

Exeggutor (46): Actually not useless: Exeggutor outspeeds and OHKOs both Growlithe and Ponyta with Psychic. Rapidash outspeeds and does 2/3s with Fire Blast while you knock it to red and thus a heal loop with Psychic. Fire Blast from Arcanine straight up OHKOs you though (don’t think he got a critical), so don’t bother. Decent.

Giovanni:
Slowbro (48): Surf sweep. Nidos EQ does some damage but not enough to kill you.
Golduck (48): Golduck used Surf, everything dies.
Nidoking (49): Solid for all but one of the Nidos, outspeeding and OHKO everything else (criticaled level 50 Rhyhorn but I doubt it mattered). Both Nidos are knocked to red by Surf I believe and 2HKO you with EQ. Good.
Hypno (49): Calm Mind to +1 then rip his team apart with Psychic, outspending all but Dugtrio. Notably, not even a critical hit Earthquake from Dugtrio stopped me, as I ended in red. I tried twice unboosted...you actually OHKO his entire party.
Exeggutor (49): Exeggutor used Psychic! Everything is OHKOed and only Dugtrio outspeeds you, oddly.

Blue VR:
Slowbro (48): Notably I misclicked my first attempt and STILL swept. Calm Mind to +1, then OHKO Pidgeot with Ice Beam. Sadly Venusaur survives both +1 Ice Beam and +1 Psychic. If you CM to +2 on Pidgeot, you should be good, though Gyarados actually lives +2 Psychic. It’s gonna be close, but you shouldn’t have to heal (you’ll likely finish in low yellow / red). It all depends if Venusaur crits you with Razor Leaf or not (+1 Razor Leaf takes you to red, for reference, I think unboosted does like a third or a half), most of his other mons can’t dent you AT ALL.

Golduck (49): I Calm Minded twice, OHKOed Pidgeot with Ice Beam then knocked Venusaur to red as it used Growth. Rhyhorn dies to Surf and Gyarados is barely 2HKOed by Ice Beam as it sets up rain. Growlithe and Alakazam are obliterated by Surf, but Alakazam could feasibly pause your sweep as it outspeeds and can use Disable, though I think it missed me. Pretty easy.

Nidoking (49): Painfully easy aside from Venusaur: not even Pidgeot Featherdance and Alakazam’s Disable stopped me. You click buttons and win, generally (Zam isn’t 2HKOed by EQ into Ice Beam tho). Venusaur can be mildly annoying though as you 3HKO with Ice Beam and it has Synthesis. Ended the fight in red, you 2HKO Pidgeot and Zam barring ridiculous Ai predictions like the above and OHKO the rest save Venusaur. With no Featherdance debuff you OHKO Alakazam with EQ. I did die in my second attempt to Venusaur, if that means anything.

Hypno (49): Calm Mind to +3 then rip him up with Psychic, notably Gyarados and Zam are 2HKOed by Psychic (I got Featherdanced). Ended in low yellow.

Exeggutor (49): Pidgeot does 2/3s with Wing Attack as you 2HKO with Psychic. Growlithe and Rhyhorn are outsped and OHKOed by Psychic. Gyarados is barely 2HKOed by Psychic (got a Special Defense drop tho). Zam for SOME reason doesn’t take much damage from Strength (it looked like, less than a 3HKO and I don’t think I had a Featherdance debuff) but I crit.

I actually lost to Venusaur because Alakazam disabled Psychic, it spammed Growth then beat me: it is taken to low yellow by Psychic as it turns out.

Lorelei:
Slowbro (53): I was ready to Calm Mind in the first attempt: until I got promptly frozen by Ice Beam and never defrosted. I then got frozen ON THE FIRST USE OF THE MOVE next round, but defrosted instantly. Then he crit. I have 3 CMs now, but Lapras survives to kill me.

With +1 Calm Mind you only 3HKO Lapras, ugh. And guess what, she can paralyze you with Body Slam and use Confuse Ray to basically turn your moves into coin flips. Then she crits me and like one turn later I die.

Set up with Calm Mind to +2, set Safeguard to stop Lapras nonsense, then 2HKO Dewgong and Lapras with Psychic. Cloyster comes out and you’ll probably have to heal as it uses Dive: you OHKO it next turn.

Lorelei’s Slowbro is just obnoxious. +2 Surf only is a 3HKO and it can use Amnesia to just laugh at you. If Lorelei has Full Restores left, you aren’t winning this without an obscene amount of turns.

Jynx unboosted is a PAIN because Lovely Kiss means you have to stop and Poke Flute. You can Chesto Berry if you want, sure, but is beating Jynx really an accomplishment? (You 3HKO with Surf).

Too painful to bother with honestly. The first genuinely bad Slowbro matchup: sure they don’t kill you but they annoy the heck out of you.

Golduck (53): Calm Mind up to +6 (unlike Slowbro, you can do this pretty effortlessly as you outspeed), but Dewgong actually lives +6 Surf in red. Golduck’s Brick Break is a 3HKO on Dewgong and can put it in range of a Surf kill. I kill Dewgong and am roughly at half HP.

The good news is Cloyster comes out and cannot touch you with its moveset of Dive, Protect, Spikes and Hail, letting you heal up effortlessly. Hail stops and I OHKO Cloyster as Slowbro comes in. +6 Surf knocks Slowbro to red as it does nothing. You outspeed and OHKO Jynx no problem. Lapras comes out last and stops you COLD unless you have Brick Break (think it is a 3HKO, might be 4HKO with Sitrus as I tried Ice Beam first as Water Absorb makes Surf useless).
Pretty great save for Lapras which has both Body Slam paralysis and Confuse Ray that can screw you up if Slowbro is any indication (I won but I’m pretty sure I healed a second time).

Pretty great if you can avoid freezes from Dewgong. Be careful of Lapras switching into Surf from another mon though - Lorelei did it with Slowbro.

Nidoking (53): Dewgong can barely be 2HKOed by Thunderbolt, Cloyster is OHKOed, Slowbro is 2HKOed, Jynx barely lives Earthquake in red (on rolls you can OHKO) and Lapras is 3HKOed by Thunderbolt but Sitrus Berry can compromise this. Virtually any super effective attack 2HKOs you.

Hypno (53): Cheri Berry (not in first attempt). I Calm Minded up to +6: Dewgong got one critical that made me heal afterward. Dewgong is OHKOed but Lapras actually lives +6 Psychic and paralyzes with Body Slam. A couple turns of paralysis and crits later I heal again and finally KO it. Cloyster is outsped and OHKOed while Slowbro is 2HKOed by Psychic. and screwed over by Insomnia. Jynx crits but is 2HKOed by Psychic. My second attempt revealed this isn’t water tight though - while you can Headbutt Lapras for chip, it can Confuse Ray you instead of paralyzing and Jynx can Attract you - it ended up killing me. Not to mention Freeze RNG (literally all five of my Pokemon got frozen at least once).

Exeggutor (53): This one is specific. Dewgong must be faster than you and go for Hail (my Eggs is 84 Speed). You are slower and go for Sunny Day. SunnyBeam actually OHKOs Dewgong but leaves Lapras in red: thus use Giga Drain first to do 1/3 then SunnyBeam Lapras to kill. Slowbro comes out and you SunnyBeam OHKO as the sunlight fades. Jynx kills you as it takes you to red from Ice Punch at full and is faster. It is worth noting if you are full HP Jynx might go for Lovely Kiss and barring Poison Point damage from Nidoking, Solar Beam may or may not kill it in one shot, but it definitely nukes Cloyster. Darn good.

Bruno:
Slowbro (53): You absolutely need +1 here as both Hitmons live unboosted Psychic in red. Onix gets you to 3/4s HP, Chan gets you to 2/3, Lee gets you to 1/4 as Mega Kick hurts, second Onix gets you to low red with EQ, but it seems Machamp dies to +1 Psychic. If anything crits you’re gonna lose unless you heal. If you want to be safe, heal on the second Onix which comes out fourth.

Golduck (54): Earthquake does around 40 damage and is thus roughly a 4-5HKO on your 163 HP (Rock Tomb does like 18 damage). You can Guard Spec. to avoid Speed drops from Rock Tomb. At +3 (you don’t want to get too low as Hitmonchan can Mach Punch you) you use Surf and OHKO Onix, Hitmonchan, Hitmonlee, and knock Machamp to red and sometimes even OHKO it if you’re lucky. You likely OHKO both Onix unboosted.

Notably, Hitmonchan didn’t Mach Punch me at 28 HP. Three uses of Calm Mind seems reasonable and should be okay as long as Earthquake doesn’t critical (critical Rock Tomb is basically normal EQ). While you still chug boosts like last time this is still pretty good.

Nidoking (53): Outspeed and OHKO both Onix consecutively with Surf, Hitmonlee is taken to red by EQ. Machamp is 3HKOed by EQ and avoids a heal loop due to Sitrus. A critical Cross Chop will hurt and do well over half HP I think. Hitmonchan is 2HKOed by EQ but can Counter you: thankfully it comes out last. Good.

Hypno (53): Guard Spec., Calm Mind to +2, then rip him apart with Psychic: notably Hitmonlee outspeeds you and seems to actually 2HKO with Mega Kick. +1 makes Hitmonchan a roll so you NEED +2. As long as Mega Kick misses you should be okay (it means you can take a critical or two from Onix).

Exeggutor (53): Both Onix fall to Giga Drain (second is faster), both Hitmons are OHKOed by Psychic, Machamp lives Psychic in red but hopefully avoids heal loop (and you can even OHKO). Pretty easy but Hitmonlee’s Mega Kick looks close to a 2HKO. Sunny Day can negate Rock Tomb’s Speed drop until Machamp comes out last. Great. For some reason I kept critting Lee.

Agatha:
Slowbro (54): Actually not horrible, Calm Mind to +1 then OHKO Gengar, Golbat and Arbok as they chip you.

Golduck (54): Persim Berry. CM to +2 (Shadow Punch is a rough 4HKO) and hope you hit with Surf to OHKO. Somehow Golbat is actually faster and can Confuse you. I think you’re best off roughly 2HKOing with Surf or in Golbat’s case Ice Beam (knocked to red).

Nidoking (53): Realistically, Nidoking is only 2HKOing Arbok with EQ, 2HKOing Golbat with Ice Beam I believe, and 2HKOing Haunter with some special move. Not trying the Gengar. Shadow Ball is way too niche to consider here.

Hypno (53): Don’t bother, everything is faster and is gonna wear you down or hax you out (first Gengar lives unboosted Psychic, even Golbat and Arbok outspeed you).

Exeggutor (53): Chesto Berry. Superb. Sunny Day means you outspeed and OHKO Gengar, Arbok, the second Gengar, and Golbat with Psychic before the sunlight fades. Sadly Haunter outspeeds and can go for Hypnosis + Curse, but if you get a hit off it dies. Basically an effortless sweep as long as you land that first Psychic after Gengar uses Double Team.

Lance:
Slowbro (54): Got 4 uses of CM up before I healed, good thing as Gyarados used Hyper Beam. +4 Psychic OHKOs it, both Dragonair do nothing and die to Ice Beam as I am like half HP, Dragonite does like 40 more with Wing Attack, Aerodactlyl tries to Hyper Beam and whiffs.

One attempt later I find out +1 Psychic 2HKOs Gyarados and OHKOs Dragonair with Ice Beam, though you’ll probably want to heal when the second one comes out thanks to paralysis and low HP (Outrage from Nair is a 3HKO). Dragonite is actually OHKOed by +1 Ice Beam and dies to Surf. Aerodactyl crits me with Ancient Power but dies to Surf. Seems reliable with one healing item. Pretty good - the bulk is helpful here.

Golduck (54): +2 Ice Beam 3HKOs Gyarados and can only 2HKO on very high rolls - you hope it Bites more than it Dragon Rages. The good news is once you beat Gyarados, both Dragonair and Dragonite are outsped and OHKOed with Ice Beam, and Aerodactyl tends to not Hyper Beam when you’re in mid-green HP as you OHKO with Surf. Great, maybe find something to weaken Gyarados first - a lucky freeze did help me.

Exeggutor (54): Gyarados’s Bite is a 4HKO as you setup Sunny Day to outspeed. Two SolarBeams kill Gyarados and Giga Drain + SolarBeam hopefully takes care of Aerodactyl (looks close) while giving you enough HP to survive Wing Attack. You outspeed both Gyarados and even Aerodactyl under sun.

Nidoking (53): Gyarados lives Thunderbolt in red but the only way it’s hurting you is via Hyper Beam. Aerodactyl I think 3HKOs with Wing Attack and is 2HKOed by Thunderbolt (using it for paralysis chance). Now I’m in red. Ice Beam does 3/4s to Dragonite and it kills me.

Dragonite’s Wing Attack does 1/3 but you thankfully outspeed. Dragonair are 2HKOed by Ice Beam and I think do maybe 40 damage to you with Dragon Rage / Outrage. Good.

Hypno (53): It’s Hypno. No way it is punching through their bulk. Gyarados outspeeds it and with a Dragon Rage and Bite IIRC, it was able to KO me when I was still a good ways in green with Hyper Beam.

Final Rival:
Golduck (55): Guard Spec to stop Pidgeot’s Sand-Attack. Calm Mind to +3 then Ice Beam as Guard Spec. wears off (watch out for Whirlwind). Venusaur is actually outsped and OHKOed by Ice Beam. Alakazam outspeeds but does minimal damage with Psychic as you OHKO back with Surf, Rhydon dies like a baby. Gyarados comes out fifth but is cleanly 2HKOed by Ice Beam. Arcanine is presumably outsped and OHKOed by Surf (it might have Roar?)

Exeggutor (54): Bait in Venusaur who literally sets sun for you as you 2HKO with Psychic (take it to red pre-Berry). Gyarados comes in and both SolarBeam and Psychic seem to 3HKO it (Bite is a rough 3HKO on you). Despite being resisted, Psychic from Alakazam still HURTS - it comes close to 3HKOing while you do 3/4s with SolarBeam, so while you can heal on it use something else. Rhydon is outsped and OHKOed by Giga Drain regardless of sun being up.

Slowbro (54): Did not test as I did not see it doing anything significant to change its ranking.
Nidoking (53): Did not test as I did not see it doing anything significant to change its ranking.
Hypno (53): Did not test as I did not see it doing anything significant to change its ranking.

Nidoran Male is something I'm torn on. It performs consistently good from Erika on, but it sorely misses both a boosting move like Calm Mind and a STAB boost on its coverage. I said Nidoran Female was B and I still stand by that, but I'm unsure if King should be A or B. Early availability and no real bad spots aside from Misty and Lorelei say A, but a lack of several clean sweeps bar more or less the last three gyms (and even then both of Giovanni's Nidos can KO you with two EQs) combined with average business at the League say B. While Game Corner TMs aren't that bad considering you drown in money in this game, I think you're best off just going with Ice Beam and not using Thunderbolt. My gut feeling is honestly saying B, but I wouldn't be opposed to A at all if other people support that.

Drowzee is C tier, no contest
. Combine a not-so-good start until Hypno gets Psychic with a consistently bad damage output, and you have far and away a contender for the worst Psychic type in the game. It's a full-on master of none. It can't be an attacker because 73 Special Attack is outclassed by Kadabra, Mr. Mime, Exeggutor, Jynx, Slowbro, Starmie - literally every other Psychic type hits harder, and most are faster than it too barring Exeggutor and Slowbro. It can't be a jack of all stats because it lacks the coverage that Nidoking uses to get around its only decent offense. It can't be a slow bulky mixed tank because only its Special Defense is above average, and at that point, you're better off using Snorlax, who ALSO has better attacking options. It's not fast enough to be a Calm Mind sweeper, not strong enough to be a bulky attacker, and just not a good Pokemon in general. The one positive I can say about it is it gets Psychic naturally at level 35, but not only is it not the only Psychic type that gets Psychic naturally, using a Psychic type and not TMing it early Psychic is just against common sense even if it is a valuable TM. I know comparisons are generally bad form for our lists, but it's hard to think of a Pokemon as outclassed as this unless I'm talking about...

Slowbro. Holy crap this thing is an easy C tier. Picture Hypno above, only without the decent Speed and way worse availability (Fuchsia City post-Koga (surfing), level 40 with repel tricking for optimal level). 30 Speed is surprisingly workable in the field because everyone is like mid-20s / low 30s for what feels like forever. However...

While Slowbro never has issues killing things, it has issues sweeping fast. It's not a good Calm Mind sweeper because you take too much chip damage while boosting. Lorelei is absolutely dreadful for it, you need a healing item against BRUNO of all people to be relatively reliable outside of misses, Agatha and Lance are mildly okay but you kill three in the former and must heal for the latter.

Slowbro does the typical Water type things, sure, but I can't see why you'd want Slowbro specifically over any other faster Water type. Golduck, Starmie, and Vaporeon roughly hit for similar damage while Blastoise isn't far behind, and Psychic type wise, most other Psychics have far better stats for sweeping because they have an actual Speed stat. The only things Slowbro is outclassing is like, Seadra and Seaking, haha. It was by no means terrible, but it absolutely should not be B with that terrible Speed in bosses and often needing one Calm Mind to kill something. It's the worst of both worlds in terms of both types: you have low Speed with a ton of weaknesses (even if they don't show up a lot) and most other options do what Slowbro is trying to do better. If you really want a bulky Water, I think Squirtle and Vaporeon are far more consistent options even with their linear movepools.

Psyduck was way better than I expected! While it has similar availability issues as Slowpoke, it is infinitely more reliable and has a way better stat spread with 85 Speed and an honestly great 95 Special Attack that is practically built to be a premier Calm Mind Surf sweeper. The only real time I was disappointed with Golduck was Agatha, even on Lorelei you can spam Calm Mind and laugh as they can't touch you. The logs are sublime (including a Champion sweep!) and it contributed in every major battle from the moment it was obtained. Solid B tier despite the late availability, you could even have some mild arguments for A but that might not be warranted due to awkward availability.

Exeggcute, holy MOLY man!
This thing was incredible and by far my favorite thing to use on the team. Easy to equip with mostly low-demand TMs? Check. Crazy major battle performance (great for the back half of Gyms, 3 KOs on Lorelei, basically sweeps Agatha, even KOs Gyarados and Aerodactyl on Lance with SunnyBeam which is also obtained in the Safari Zone, outspeeding both Gyarados and even Aerodactyl under sun)? Check. Packs one heck of a wallop with 125 Special Attack (one of the highest in Kanto)? Check. Can handle other Psychics and clear routes fine with base 95 Attack Strength? Check. Defensive typing that isn't really a hinderance at all due to workable base 55 Speed? Check. Crazy Chlorophyll sweeper lategame that can surprisingly use SunnyBeam effectively? Check. Potential Sleep Powder access too if you hold off on evolving, but I didn't go that route. The logs speak for themselves, this thing hard carried my team through the entire endgame. Exeggcute should be B at absolute worst and I think A is definitely within reason for it!
 

Ryota Mitarai

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Going to use this post to announce a final countdown. In other words, I am giving this thread around two weeks to finalize everything. Thus, this list will close on the 5th July and will not be accepting any new nominations, thus finally moving this to the write-ups phase.

(the reason I am closing on July 5th is so Americans can celebrate on the 4th with no worries)

After this thread closes, it will be locked and won't be open for further replies. Instead, a new thread will be made where we will work on and archive write-ups, which are short entries for each Pokemon that we will have on the final article

The thread for the write-ups will feature thorough guidelines to assist you in writing the entries up to my standards if you have not participated in the write-ups of whatever is published/about to be published. The thread will also include more information in regards to the process (such as how to reserve a Pokemon, how to format the entry, etc.).

After writing up everything, we will receive some quality control and move the article to the In-game articles subforum to be grammar checked and coded, which will then lead to the publication of the article and thus the end of the project.

People that have both contributed enough tests and have written enough entries (with more from one aspect requiring less from the other) may be credited explicitly as co-authors.


It is important to note that new nominations will not be accepted after the thread closes and rank changes will only happen in extreme circumstances, which will be outlined in the new thread. Therefore, please make sure you have said everything you have about a Pokemon, as otherwise it won't be accepted later on.

Rank changes as a result of the countdown will happen at the time of closing the thread. Therefore, no tiering changes will be done before 5th July.

to move on to what Drumstick has posted, I will make the following declarations:

- Exeggcute and Nidoran-M are staying in their current ranks unless they suddenly get more support to move from there
- In order to promote more panic discussion on Slowpoke, I will drop this to C-tier at the end of the countdown unless B-tier supporters convince me why it shoud be B-tier in spite of what Drumstick has brought out as perfectly valid issues (which I have experienced when using Slowpoke myself)
- Drowzee and Psyduck are staying C-tier and B-tier, respectively, with no chance of moving from their ranks at this point. Tentacool is also tentatively staying in B-tier after thinking about it.
- Hitmonlee and Hitmonchan will retain their rankings the way they are now, but it is encouraged that more people talk about them or give them a try in a quick run during the two weeks

thank you to all people that contributed to this thread and I hope this continues in the write-ups phase as well
 
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Texas Cloverleaf

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Backing Exeggcute, I did a run some time and also recently going the Psychic / Giga Drain / Sleep Powder / Leech Seed route and it's equally as effective as Drumstick attests to, highly powerful, quite bulky, good sweeping potential and good support potential. Great mon (and easy to catch up with a short grind in Lavender Tower as needed).
 
Backing Exeggcute, I did a run some time and also recently going the Psychic / Giga Drain / Sleep Powder / Leech Seed route and it's equally as effective as Drumstick attests to, highly powerful, quite bulky, good sweeping potential and good support potential. Great mon (and easy to catch up with a short grind in Lavender Tower as needed).
Thanks for backing my opinion on Exeggcute, it felt so strangely effective, and I think it's even more crazy with sun.

I'm honestly surprised you didn't disagree with me saying Slowbro was C. At one point in the past you advocated for A. I know my argument above kind of relates moreso to tiering philosophy (meaning fast offensive threats are preferred in these kind of things outside like...Snorlax, which has significantly better availability, Rest + Poke Flute combo when it gets worn down if you like, though that could be item reliance) but I also believe that Bro, while you can get KOs with it, is just inherently inefficient because you need one or more boosts to kill things fine, but said boosts make the Speed problem rear its ugly head again.

Do you think I'm being too harsh on Slowbro? I just didn't see the sublime League sweeper you did, especially on Lorelei - I think mine only picked up a few KOs on Agatha and potentially needed a heal on Bruno and definitely a heal on Lance for sweeping. We only tend to penalize for two items though, so I'm not sure.

When I think sweeper I don't think 30 Speed is what I'm saying. It feels like Slowbro exists in this weird gray area where it's hard to say it's good in-game despite being serviceable in major battles solely due to its stat allocation. It's odd.
 
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Texas Cloverleaf

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As you say it's simply a matter of tiering philosophy, I do still believe that Slowbro is the best end game Pokemon and sweeper but it's equally true that it takes more time and may consume more resources to do so than appropriate if tiering with a heavier emphasis on efficiency - I value inevitability higher than most (e.g. Venusaur). Your criticisms of speed crippling it's sweeping ability is fair.
 
As you say it's simply a matter of tiering philosophy, I do still believe that Slowbro is the best end game Pokemon and sweeper but it's equally true that it takes more time and may consume more resources to do so than appropriate if tiering with a heavier emphasis on efficiency - I value inevitability higher than most (e.g. Venusaur). Your criticisms of speed crippling it's sweeping ability is fair.
I can see points where inevitability is attractive…to an extent.

The classic example is Cottonee in Black and White 1. Yes, you have Charm / Cotton Guard / Leech Seed and all the support you could ever want; which can be very helpful in boss battles, though it is inherently a slow killer.

But when a stalling mon doesn’t have the coverage to get around its slow playstyle or awkward STAB quickly (Grass types are notorious for this) then I think you’re just adding on some 3 minutes or even more in bosses for the sake of staying healthy, and in the case of moves like Leech Seed and Sleep Powder, while I wouldn’t call them BAD choices in-game by any means, can’t be a Mon’s EXCLUSIVE selling point in most matchups, as it means every battle slows to a crawl. And yes, it’s perfectly okay if you value that output through mons like Venusaur more: not every Mon will appeal to every player with their unique playstyles and stats. But I think even defensive mons can have a place in-game if they have the tools to get around it (see Audino in BW1, it was C despite looking terribly outclassed on paper).

I think the only Mon that can do Sleep in virtually any Pokémon game correctly aside from the obvious CompoundEyes bots of Butterfree and Vivillon is Petilil and Lilligant, also in Black and White. They are also of the Grass type, but their viability isn’t restricting to sleeping something and then waiting: Quiver Dance is such a busted move that after a few boosts it won’t matter if an Lilligant is mono-Grass.

I understand a lot of this doesn’t necessarily relate to FRLG, but I felt it helped illustrate my stance on the issue.
 

Ryota Mitarai

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Small clarification which I forgot to include in my post: rank changes as a result of the countdown will happen at the time of closing the thread. Therefore, no tiering changes will be done before 5th July.

I have updated my post to reflect this, I am only making a post just so it's clear
 
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I posted logs previously about Hitmonlee, Slowpoke and Hitmonchan.

While I can get the A-tier argument about Psyduck and Exeggutor (and was quite hesitant when I made nominations about them), I still feel B-tier would be better for them. Exeggutor is great but I feel between its availability in mid-game, slow growth rate and average performance against Blaine (as well as possibly waiting 'til level 37 for Sleep Powder as Exeggcute), A-tier is a bit too much. As for Psyduck, it's either found after Koga or hard to get if you want to use it for Koga. I'd recommand it for Koga in spite of its low encounter rate because Koga is a rather hard gym leader and Golduck has a great performance. Aside from the mid-game encounter, Golduck has an average performance against Bruno and possibly Lorelei according to the IA and luck. Still, both mons are great and I'd really recommand anyone to use them as they are really fun to use and an excellent performance. I feel the mid-game encounter is what prevents them mostly from being A-tier.

As for Slowbro, I think it's fine in B-tier (although I totally get why DrumStickGaming nommed it for C-tier). Just like Psyduck, I really think it's better to use it for Koga because it has an amazing performance againt an important gym leader. From there, Slowbro wins against Koga, Sabrina, Blaine (unless Growlithe/Arcanine flinch) and Giovanni. Lorelei may take forever but Slowbro does pretty well and is guaranteed to sweep with a Full Restore. Bruno may require a Full Restore but in the worst case you beat the 2 Hitmon and both Onix and by avoiding a mon, you can defeat Machamp (like you can easily take down Onix with omething else and beat the 3 fighting-types). Agatha is pretty great as everything get OHKOed by +1 Psychic and Slowbro ha the bulk to take several hits. Lance is amazing as you either defeat 4 mons or outright win with a Full Restore. Where Slowbro is better than most mons is the Champion fight though. t's easy to set up on Pidgeot and at +3, Slowbro will be able to beat Pidgeot, Arcanine, Venusaur, Gyarados, Alakazam and assuming you heal on it Rhydon. Slowbro has probably the best Champion fight of every Pokemon outside of Jynx and maybe Alakazam, it's really that great.

Now, I can totally get that Slowbro is very hax prone and a crit/flinch can cost a win. However, even if that happens, Slowbro will still have pulled a great performance, outside of Lorelei. Even assuming Blaine's Arcanine flinch, Slowbro will have beaten 3 mons. In the event Bruno or Lance get a crit, Slowbro will still beat 3 mons. I understant some fights may take time as Slowbro almost always move last but I wouldn't copare it to Cottonnee in BW or Jumpluff in GSC. Both are Staller, really reliant on Leech Seed and each battle takes forever with this method (not to mention how hard they are to train) whereas Slowbro is more of a slow sweeper. Outside of Lorelei and Champion (where it's easy to set up on Pidgeot), it won't need more than 1 CM. What I like the most about Slowbro is that it's eiter a straight up win and even when it can't sweep, it has a massive performance, it doesn't have a single bad matchup (except for Erika which doesn't matter too much). It can be frustrating when on paper it wins and gets crited but even if this case, Slowbro will have done something. Some fights like Lorelei and Lance are never an outright win outside of the S-tier and Starmie and outside of them, Slowbro ha the best performance.

Overall, I feel Slowbro is fine in B-tier. It wins against 4 gym leaders, wins against Lorelei/Bruno/ with a Full Restore, Agatha most of the time and Champion most of the time. Yes, it may take times but Slowbro will help massively even when it doesn't sweep, beating 3 mons most of the time, which is something few 'mons can claim. Performance wise, it's way better than generic water-types like Seadra and Seaking tht don't do much outside of Blaine, Giovanni and Lance, it's great to excellent in every single fight and having it in the same tier as Psyduck would make sense.


I also think Hitmonlee is fine in B-tier and Hitmonchan in C-tier. I posted logs of them previously in the thread and the difference in power is noticeable. Hitmonlee wins against Erika, unlike Chan thanks to Limber. Koga is roughly the same in spite of Keen Eye because Hitmonchan will need one more Bulk Up (3 as opposed to 2), meaning it's prone to getting hit more or poisonned. Sabrina is a bit better for Hitmonlee as Alakazam is a range at +1 with Strength for Chan. Blaine is exactly the same. Giovanni is better for Hitmonlee, where is should win as opposed to Chan that will lose to Nidoking. Lorelei is the same matchup. Bruno is pretty much the same, Hitmonlee has to set up later but beat 4 mons including Machamp while Hitmonchan can set up on Onix 1. Lance is a bit better for Hitmonlee as Brick Break is a guaranteed 2HKO whereas it's a range for Chan. Champion is equaly bad for them.

I feel winning against Erika and Giovanni as well as having better performances in some battles (Sabrina and Lance) is enough to warrant being a tier above. As for being B-tier, Hitmonlee is itself pretty good, outright winning against Erika, Giovanni, having a potent performance against Koga and fairly good against Blaine and doing strongly against Lorelei and Bruno. A mid-game encounter with these performances deserve B-tier I think.
 
Thus, this list will close on the 5th July and will not be accepting any new nominations, thus finally moving this to the write-ups phase.
Better squeeze this in real quick then. Running Nidoran-M (specifically the traded Nidoran in LeafGreen, called Mr. Nido), Hitmonlee, Exeggcute, and Slowpoke.

Misty

Nidorino (16): Mr. Nido begins disobeying after level 10 so you have no chance whatsoever. Terrible mu.

Surge

Nidoking (23): Dig ohkos everything lol. You can even ohko Pikachu with Horn Attack so you don’t have to waste the extra turn. Only thing that annoys you is Double Team but that goes for everything. Fantastic mu.

Erika

Nidoking (28): Ice Beam 2hkos Victreebel and Vileplume, ohkos Tangela. Best Bel and Plume can do is Stun Spore you, since Giga Drain does barely any damage. Slightly annoying without a Cheri Berry, but great mu nonetheless.

Hitmonlee (31): Get to +2 with Bulk Up and sweep. +2 Strength is a roll to ohko Bel (favored), ohkos Tang, and 2hkos Plume. The key to this MU is Limber, which prevents them from Stun Sporing you into oblivion, and a Pecha Berry, which prevents Bel from Poison Powdering turn 1 and potentially cutting your sweep short. Giga Drain really isn’t enough to touch you. Good mu.

Exeggutor (28): Psychic ohkos everything lol. My Eggy is super fast so it didn’t really need to set up Sunny Day but you still can so long as you heal off the inevitable paralysis. Fantastic mu.

Koga

All 40

Nidoking: Surf 2hkos the Koffings and 3hkos Weezing, and Dig 2hkos Muk. Despite it being the only mon you can hit with your STAB, it completely walls you out thru Minimize + Acid Armor, meaning it’s best to skip it. Even the Koffings can screw you over by Smokescreening your accuracy away, or booming and taking away all but a sliver of your HP. You *can* win if the Koffings only Sludge and you dodge Muk, but this is still a poor mu.

Hitmonlee: +2 Strength ohkos the koffings, 2hkos Muk and Weezing. Much the same principle as Nido, the koffings *have* to Sludge you or waste a turn with Toxic (thanks Pecha Berry) in order for you to even have a chance to sweep, but now you’re forced to play with Muk, who conveniently lives a Strength and can start its bullshit to drain your Strength PP. Provided you even get to Weezing you can still just get boomed on, which granted, you win but not without that sweet sweet xp. Poor mu, arguably worse than King.

Exeggutor: Ohko everything expect Muk, which is a roll, with Psychic. Muk can get slightly annoying if it Minimizes or Sludge poisons since it gets two potions to play with, but it seems allergic to using the former and you have a Pecha Berry for the latter, and you circumvent this loop anyways with Strength -> Psychic. Great mu.

Gary (Silph Co.)

Bro is 41, rest 40

Nidoking: Pidgeot and Zard are 2hkod by Tbolt, Gyarados ohkod, Exeggute is ohkod with Ice Beam, and Zam is 2hkod by Surf. You survive even Wing Attack into Future Sight into Flamethrower, albeit on very low HP. You need a little investment to have two GC tms but more than doable at this stage. Great mu.

Hitmonlee: At +2 you ohko everything with the appropriate move except for Exeggcute, which is a roll with Return. The start of this sweep is the primary issue: you need Pidgeot to Wing Attack twice, since it’s a 3hko with defense boosts and it Featherdancing/Whirlwinding is far worse for obvious reasons. The problem is this leaves you on low HP, and if Eggy survives a +2 Return (idk how it even can in the first place I have 20 ivs in attack) it’ll ko with Confusion. If you manage to get past that tho it’s cool since you outspeed everything else and ohko provided you hit your Rock Slides, I guess. Good mu.

Exeggutor: Sun Sweep is out of the question since you fail to kill things fast enough. You do however 2hko everything except Exeggcute, which is 3hkod by Strength (2hkod by Egg Bomb but I missed over and over again once and said fuck it). This means that you can 1v1 basically everything except Zard, which just ohkos you with Flamethrower. This isn’t that great imo, since only Pidg and Gyara + Starter are actually a threat, but if you lead Eggy Gyara comes out after Pidg and you have just enough HP to beat both. Decent/Good.

Slowbro: Ice Beam is a roll to ohko Pidg, and ohkos Eggy outright. Psychic is a roll to 2hko Gyara (in your favor, as far as I can tell). Surf 2hkos Zam and is a roll to ohko Zard(also in your favor). The most dangerous mu is Gyara, who can Bite flinch you into hell and Dragon Rage your HP away. Having to roll on most things is super annoying, especially when Gyara can prevent you from full sweeping regardless. Decent/good.

Thoughts thus far:

:Nidoking: - Far as I can tell, the two downsides of using Mr. Nido are it coming post-Mt. Moon, thus requiring some switch-training to bring it up to speed with the rest of your team, and the fact that, due to level disobedience, it is basically useless against Misty. However, Mr. Nido's trade-boosted experience means it very quickly levels up even just from doing Nugget Bridge, and, you need a level 23 Nidoking to even be decent against Misty (according to DrumstickGaming, but I'll take his word on it), so these aren't really downsides imo. In return, you get the aforementioned trade exp, allowing to easily keep up in level with minimal training (and given that this is FRLG it will probably get absurdly high-leveled just by circumstance at times), and the guaranteed, very good ivs and Lonely nature, ensuring a very high-pedigree Nidoking. Combine all that with the fact that you are using a Nidoking, with its solid stats, typing, and, especially, movepool, and you have the makings of a very good pokemon. Feeling a mighty A thus far.

:Hitmonlee: - Getting this thing ready to go in time for Erika is such a pain in the ass. First you actually have to get it, which, given that the dojo master is running level 37 mons can be pretty dangerous. Then you have to a normal move; you can either teach it Secretpower, or if you've done that already (not impossible since Secretpower is actually pretty useful for a lot of mons to have in this game) you have to go to Fuchsia, do the Safari Zone shit, and come all the way back to have Strength on it. After that, you still need Bulk Up, so you need to venture into Silph Co and snatch that before you can get back to Erika and have just a good mu against her. Granted this is FRLG so you can do Erika basically anytime you want but A. I have a traded Nidoking and thus felt compelled to take her on ASAP and B. if you wait til after the other gym leaders to battle her she'd be pretty much a pushover no matter what you were using. Even with all the setup and coverage in the world it feels like there's just enough annoyances to keep Lee from being truly dominating in any of the battles I've used it in thus far, and idk if I think that's worth the headache this mon puts you through.

:Exeggutor: - Psychic types almost have to try to be bad in FRLG and fortunately Eggy's been riding high so far. I'm going the SunnyBeam route with it which is what I've always used but apparently others have gone the bulkier route with Leech Seed, idk if that's a fuckup on my part but we'll see. I don't really have a lot to say other than it could really benefit from Calm Mind, but then again, what special attacker wouldn't.

:Slowbro: - Having used the slow brothers in other games in the past (specifically I tested Slowking for the HGSS thread) I kinda know what to expect from this guy, I think. Granted, I've had him for exactly one major battle thus far, but even in that one fight I could feel the effects of being a member of the Slowpoke line. Having 30 speed is just awful, even if you have a ton of upsides to compensate for it (which, between its great typing, stats (bar speed), and movepool, Slowbro most certainly does) because it leaves you open to a ton of hax and residual damage that even a mon with average speed would be able to avoid. Bite is your nemesis. Also the availability is terrible; whether you're repel tricking a level 40 Slowpoke in the tiniest of fucking ponds imaginable or going spelunking in Seafoam Islands to find a wild Bro, you're in for a bad time, and either method means you're missing out on Koga with your Psychic-type (you can get one without surfing but it's a 5% chance at best with the Super Rod and the levels vary between 15-35. Trust me, just 1 level with Slowpoke is painful enough, God forbid you have to go through ~20). i have the feeling this is gonna be a very mediocre pokemon, but who knows, it could very well surprise me.

Having written this post it feels like I haven't done a whole lot despite the many hours I've put into the game already, but I guess that's just FRLG for you. In any case, I hope to be back within the next week with a finished run and some last minute noms :psyglad:
 
Double posting like a bitch to say I completed my run:

Sabrina

Nido is 43, Bro is 41, rest 42

Nidoking: Megahorn ohkos Kadabra and Mr. Mime. Zam outspeeds and ohkos with Psychic. Venomoth is a roll to 2hko with Surf/Tbolt/any of those 95bp special moves. Venomoth 3hkos back with Psybeam but has potions on its side and will beat you out if you don’t get your rolls. Having Flamethrower/Rock Slide or any such move would put the odds in your favor but these moves generally aren’t worth using. Good mu.

Hitmonlee: Get to +2 and sweep. Kadabra sets up Reflect turn 1 but you have BB to ohko and break Reflect; from there, Return ohkos everything. Zam outspeeds but doesn’t even bother to Psychic and gets ohko’d. Great mu.

Exeggutor: Strength ohkos Kadabra and 2hkos Mime/Zam. Psychic ohkos Venomoth. Sunny Day isn’t really helpful since none of the mons can hurt you anyways. Great mu.

Slowbro: Amnesia up and spam Surf. You ohko Venomoth with Psychic and Kadabra with Surf provided it hasn’t Calm Minded up. You don’t kill things super quickly, especially with CM and potions factored in, but with Amnesia up you’re not really in any danger unless/until you get crit. Maybe Strength could be of use here but that seems like an absolute waste of a moveslot. Good mu.

Blaine

Nido is 46, rest 45

Nidoking: Surf ohkos Growlithe and Ponyta, 2hkos Rapidash and Arcanine. You can survive Dash into Nine’s Fire Blasts bar a crit/burn, but they are more likely to miss than do any of those things so you’re pretty in the clear unless you’re like me and have bad karma through the roof, apparently. Great mu.

Hitmonlee: At +2, ohko Growl, Pony, and Dash with Return, and Nine with +1 Rock Slide. Having an Intimidate sack is preferred since two Bulk Ups will net you +1 Attack vs Growlithe, and therefore Arcanine will set you to neutral, causing you to 2hko with Rock Slide and leaving yourself open to death via Fire Blast if you’ve taken prior damage from Growlithe. Great mu.

Exeggutor: Psychic ohkos Growl and Pony, 2hkos the rest. You outspeed the former two, but you’ll need to dodge some Fire Blasts to take on the latter. Decent.

Slowbro: Surf ohkos everything except Arcanine, which is a roll. CMing feels like a waste since it just gives Growlithe one more time to Bite flinch you into oblivion. That really is your biggest problem since you don’t outspeed anything and can get flinched 3 times in a row (this has happened to me multiple times) and if Growl doesn’t kill you it will absolutely leave you weak enough to where you will die somewhere down the road. Good mu since *technically* this should not happen but it is absolutely shameful that it can.

Giovanni

Nido and Eggy are 48, others 46

Nidoking: Ohko everything except the Nidos, which are 2hkod by Surf. Both Nidos 2hko you with EQ, so you can only take one down. Good mu, would be great if it could beat both the actual threats on Gio’s team.

Hitmonlee: At +2, you ohko everything except Queen which is 2hkod by Return. Setting up is rather annoying thanks to Scary Face, since if you’re outsped the EQ damage will quickly stack up regardless of Defense boosts. Also being forced to hit Queen like 4-5 times while it continuously heals is just begging to get poisoned which will likely spell your doom if you’ve taken damage. Good mu.

Exeggutor: Ohko everything with Psychic. You outspeed everything except Dugtrio but even if you don’t they can’t touch you for shit anyways. Fantastic mu.

Slowbro: Surf ohkos everything. You only outspeed the Rhyhorns but since you have very good physical bulk you are relatively safe from anything Gio could do to you. Great mu.

Gary (Victory Road)

Nido and Eggy are 48, rest 47

Nidoking: Pidgeot is 2hkod’ by Ice Beam/TBolt, only FeatherDances in retaliation. Zam comes out next, outspeeds, and ohkos with Psychic. Exeggcute, Gyarados, and Rhyhorn are ohkod by Ice Beam, TBolt, and Surf, respectively. Zard is 2hkod by Tbolt, but outspeeds and 2hkos with Flamethrower. Good mu.

Hitmonlee: Setting up on Pidgeot is impossible as it will either Featherdance or 2hko you with Wing Attack even after defense boosts. Killing with Slowbro baited in Exeggcute for me, whom will go for Sleep Powder into Solarbeam. If Egg hits Sleep Powder turn 1 the Solarbeam damage can cause the incoming Zam to ko you with Psychic; equipping Chesto Berry causes Eggy to Poison Powder, which achieves the same result. Sweeping this battle seems entirely reliant on Egg missing the first Sleep Powder, but perhaps if you were able to bait in Rhyhorn, you would have better odds at sweeping. Decent mu.

Exeggutor: Sunny Day sweeping is pointless here as Zard absolutely cockblocks you. Pidgeot is 2hkod by Psychic but the damage you take from Wing Attack makes it not really worth it. Zam is 2hkod by Strength but getting Disable’d can suck as it forces you into Solarbeam. Exeggcute is 3hkod by Strength but the worst it can really do is paralyze. Rhyhorn is ohko’d by Psychic. Gyara is outsped and 2hkod by Psychic. Basically avoid the fliers and you’re fine. Good mu.

Slowbro: Get up to +2 with Calm Mind and sweep. You ohko everything except Gyara, who kindly Rain Dances to ensure you ohko Zam with Surf even after a Calm Mind of its own. Great mu.


Lorelai

Bro is 52, rest 53

Nidoking: TBolt is a roll to 2hko Dewgong, ohko Cloyster and 3hko Lapras, and 2hkos Slowbro. EQ is a roll to ohko Jynx (this one is actually in your favor tho). You outspeed everything and can take about 1 Surf or Ice Beam from full. Obviously not gonna sweep here but you can at least take out Jynx and likely Cloyster as well. Poor mu.

Hitmonlee: Set up on Dewgong and sweep. All you need is a Chesto Berry to prevent Slowbro’s Yawn so you can cleanly 2hko with Return, and then you outspeed and ohko everything. Fantastic mu.

Exeggutor: In the most specific of conditions (Dewgong Safeguards instead of Ice Beams turn 1, and Lapras Ice Beams instead of Confuse Rays), you can kill everything except for Jynx (just make sure you Strength into Solarbeam on Lapras as Solarbeam does not ohko and Lapras heal spamming will burn out your Sun turns). This scenario did happen for me a couple of times (sometimes Dewgong also Hails which is annoying cuz you outspeed it but ultimately achieves the same result) but if you don’t, you’ll have to switch out against Lapras, heal, and set up Sunny Day on whatever comes out next (hopefully not Jynx). From there you can kill Cloyster and Bro and lose to Jynx cuz it eats 1 Solarbeam and puts you to sleep. Decent mu.

Slowbro: At +2 you 2hko everything, except for Cloyster and Jynx, which are ohkod. Your sweep can vary based on how much chip you might take from Hail or various attacks but you generally will make it to Jynx, at which point you are too low without healing to finish her off. As i side note, I got done writing the previous sentences and went to brag to my friends that Bro was doing well against Lorelai and not getting haxxed, and as soon as I said it I went back to test again and kept getting the fuck haxxed out of me by Lapras, who has paralysis, freeze, and confusion to fuck with you, not to mention good old-fashiond crits. I got haxxed out more often that I got to Jynx, and it’s very telling that I feel thankful my Calm Minding Psychic type managed to beat 4 out of 5 mons once or twice, so I think that justifies calling this a decent mu.

Bruno

Nidoking (54): Surf ohkos both Onix. Hitmonlee and Hitmonchan are 2hkod by EQ. Machamp is 4hko by EQ. Champ generally roadblocks you with Bulk Up and speed drops, ensuring that even if you make it past him, Chan will outspeed and clean you up, since you are very likely to be low after a Cross Chop from Champ and a Mega Kick from Lee. Although Chan can also just Rock Tomb you and you’re kinda forced into not using EQ unless you wanna get smashed by Counter. Decent mu.

Hitmonlee (54): +2 Brick Break ohkos everything except Champ, which is a 2hko. Onix Rock Tombs which will leave you outsped by everything, however both Onix fail to do much damage with EQ and Chan chooses to Counter, meaning Lee is the only one who really does damage. That said, Mega Kick will put you in range of Cross Chop. If the first Onix opts to EQ twice, you will outspeed and beat everything. Good mu.

Exeggutor (53): Ohko everything with a combination of Solarbeam and Psychic, except for Champ, who is 2hkod. Sunny Day enables you to bypass speed drops and demolish everything. Fantastic mu.

Slowbro (52): At +1 you ohko everything with Surf/Psychic. However, since you are so slow, you actually take enough damage to the point where you can’t fully sweep. The main culprit is Lee with Mega Kick, so if you manage to dodge that (it is 75 acc, fwiw) you could actually make it to and beat Champ. Good mu.

Agatha:

Levels are the same

Nidoking: EQ ohkos Arbok (2hkos after Intimidate), TBolt 2hkos Golbat, 3hkos Haunter, 4hkos the Gengars. Everything except Arbok outspeeds and has potential to hax the shit out of you. Poor mu.

Hitmonlee: Look at Agatha’s team. Now look at your Hitmonlee. Now set up to +2 on Arbok after dodging Intimidate, then see how it fails to ohko Arbok with Return. Terrible mu.

Exeggutor: Psychic ohkos everything. Sunny Day up against Gengar 1 and pray you hit after a Double Team. Should that work you, your Sun should run out against Haunter, who cannot touch you if you’re not asleep, which you can perfectly avoid thanks to Chesto berry (Pecha is a consideration to stop Toxic from lead gar, but even when running Chesto it literally never attempted to Toxic me). Even if you miss once or twice against lead Gar you can set up Sun against Golbat and even ace Gar with little consideration, as you have Chesto and can stomach any one hit well. Great mu.

Slowbro: Set up 1 Calm Mind and sweep. If lead Gar decides to Shadow Punch instead of incessantly spam Double Team your sweep will be cut short as the damage will add up to you getting put out of commission by ace Gar, but if not you can survive pretty consistently to end the match, hax notwithstanding. Good mu.

Lance

Lee 54, rest 53

Nidoking: 2hko everything with the appropriate coverage move. Aero outspeeds and attempts to Wing Attack into Hyper Beam, fortunately I dodged both times but realistically this should end you. You will clean up the Airs pretty well, and can generally take on Gyara and DNite from full, but no chance of sweeping here. Decent.

Hitmonlee: Sweeping from lead won’t work cuz you’ll just get knocked out by Aero. get rid of both, lure in a Dragonair, and get up to +3 cuz they literally cannot affect you. At +3 you outspeed and ohko Dragonite(!). Decent if only cuz you can actually ohko DNite.

Exeggutor: 2hko everything. Basically no sweeping potential here as Gyara weakens you to the point of Aero killing you and even the Airs have TWave to neuter you. Bad mu.

Slowbro: Set up +1 CM and ohko Aero/Airs with Surf/Ice Beam. Dodge Gyara since it just Bites/Dragon Rages you to Hell, and by the time you get to Nite it’ll just Hyper Beam you to death. Decent.

Gary (League)

Bro is 53, rest 54

Nidoking: Tbolt 2hkos Gyara and rolls to 2hko Pidg, Surf ohkos Rhydon, Ice Beam 2hkos Eggy. Eggy apparently doesn’t have Psychic so provided you are at half HP or above you should be safe from Egg Bomb (it’s also 75 acc so you have fair odds to dodge). Good mu.

Hitmonlee: No great setup targets and the only thing you ohko is Rhydon with Brick Break. Bad mu.

Exeggutor: Hard to find a setup option for Sunny Day and even when you do your sweep will inevitably be ended by Charizard. However you can use Sunny Day to beat individual targets, like Zam and Gyara, and Rhydon obviously falls over regardless. Decent.

Slowbro: No great setup targets either, you can 1v1 Zard, Rhydon, and technically Gyara and Pidg, but the latter two can hax you out pretty hard with Bite/Sand Attack. Poor mu.

And now my nominations:

:nidoran-m: to A: Mr. Nido absolutely gets the job done. Its expanisve movepool and guaranteed great IVs and nature mean it easily handles a vast majority of the game. While it does falter a fair bit at the league (which keeps it out of S, in my eyes), it reclaims some of its glory at the champion, solidifying its spot at A rank.

:Hitmonlee: to C: Lee is a lot of work for not a lot of payoff. It has a fantastic Lorelai mu, but beyond that any sweep it gets tends to have some certain conditions that need meeting. It's not a terribly reliable sweeper, even against some of the easier mus in the game, but I feel it is competent enough for C, it certainly was a strong route cleaner.

:Exeggcute: to B: despite its somewhat late availability, Exeggcute is a strong member for any team. The fact that one little trip to Safari Zone means you can walk out with a completely ready Exeggutor, in time for Erika, makes it very desirable, and it proves a capable sweeper for the vast majority of the game. Aside from coming kinda late, the reasons I put it in B is because, without a boosting move, it can have trouble ohkoing things it's not hitting super-effectively, as well as its reliance on Sun for speed, giving you about 4 turns of speed before you need to set it back up. Both of these factors mean sweeps can get kind of complicated. Nonetheless, it is a very solid pokemon.

:Slowpoke: to C: its late availability is bad enough as is (imagine not having your psychic type in time for koga lul) but what really kills Slowbro's shot at a higher tier is its speed. 30 speed suck dick, no way around that. Maybe if you were Steelix and were resistant/immune to like 15 different types it'd be different, but Slowbro is just way too vulnerable to chip/status/hax to be a consistent sweeper. Its typing is great, its movepool is great, and, for the most part, its stats are great too, but its that one little two digit number that keeps it in the realm of mediocrity.

I hope this very last minute run is useful for finishing up this list:psyglad:
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributor
Some clarifications:

- The Mr. Nido nomination is going to be counted towards the normal Nido (mainly because I don't really wanna split into more rankings if the difference is purely in trade exp / IVs and is not something every player (or game specifically in this case) can obtain)

- should Hitmonlee drop, Machamp will *not* drop alongside it. I think Machamp is a solid B-tier, given its bulk makes setting up safer + Guts helping it out with some of the more annoying matchups, and arguably a better setup sweeper than Hitmonlee (and Med Slow growth is sick, ngl)

- if Slowpoke drops to C-tier, Tentacool *might* drop to C-tier as well, however, I will try to do a last-minute run with both of them to compare them and see if they ought to go in the same tier should Slowpoke drop

None of those are indications as to what I am going to do with the last nominations, I am just clarifying so that there aren't surprises tomorrow
 
:Exeggcute: to B: despite its somewhat late availability, Exeggcute is a strong member for any team. The fact that one little trip to Safari Zone means you can walk out with a completely ready Exeggutor, in time for Erika, makes it very desirable, and it proves a capable sweeper for the vast majority of the game. Aside from coming kinda late, the reasons I put it in B is because, without a boosting move, it can have trouble ohkoing things it's not hitting super-effectively, as well as its reliance on Sun for speed, giving you about 4 turns of speed before you need to set it back up. Both of these factors mean sweeps can get kind of complicated. Nonetheless, it is a very solid pokemon.
Despite what I said above, I can agree with Exeggcute in B. I would say using sun is pretty straightforward against both Bruno and Agatha, by the time sun runs out you click Psychic like one more time and the remaining thing probably dies, assuming no Double Team hax on Agatha. The only time I would agree sun setup is truly complicated is Lorelei, but OHKOing Dewgong with SolarBeam is still quite nice there, and it's not like Cloyster is killing you either. Like, none of the Gyms really require sun either, Eggs just clicks Strength or Psychic and you profit outside Blaine.

It would definitely help if Exeggutor could learn Calm Mind, no question. I think Exeggcute is okay in B. It's not exactly early for sure and you have to kind of go out of your way to get it before Erika, not to mention it kinda hoards TMs like steroids, and Blaine and Lance are not good for it. A tier was a little much in hindsight, but I also believe Exeggutor should never be among the C tiers (which I doubt anyone contests at this point) simply because if you prepare your team in advance to use it, you get one of the better lategame options available.

It does make me wonder though, does anyone contest Jynx in S? We all know it's a dominant Pokemon with trade EXP that rolls over a lot, but that availability is also pretty late, so if we penalize Exeggcute and rod Pokemon for availability, should we penalize Jynx? I know this is kind of a last minute question but I'm curious what people think on this. It's not nearly as early as Abra and Mr. Mime, either.
 
I have the same view on Exeggutor, it's a solid B-rank that sadly comes too late to justify A-tier but should never be anywhere near C-rank.

As for Jynx, it should 100% be S-tier as it's imo the best mon in the game, even after taking account of its late arrival. Other Psychic-types have some usability problems. Abra is annoying to catch and requires babying to level 16 while Mr.Mime requires a backtrack and comes a bit underleveled. Jynx comes at a decent level, is incredibly easy to train thanks to boosted exp and thanks to Lavender Tower, it will easily catch up to the rest of the team level. Afterwards, it's more likely than not that Jynx will outlevel the rest of the team. Coming with great IVs and nature is another perk Jynx has over Kadabra/Alakazam. The main reason why Jynx should be S-tier is how busted it is, it just walks through the game, without any trouble. Each major battle, even Blaine (it's easy to set up 2 CM On Growlithe and from there everything is outsped and OHKOed) is a nearly guaranteed win. The only exception is Lance's Aerodactyl assuming it outspeeds and potentially the fire-type from Rival. Jynx is really that good and between defeating everything and having boosted exp, it's by far the best Pokemon you can use in the game. It's pretty self-sufficient as it only requires the CM TM and Psychic TM, that are only used on other Psychic-types that you would probably not run with Jynx (or Golduck for the Calm Mind TM). Even performance-wise, there isn't much difference between Jynx, Kadabra, Alakazam and Mr.Mime. Mr.Mime will come underleveled for Surge most likely and the Abra line requires babying and both lose to Misty anyway. Surge is admitedly great to defeat but he's skippable anyway. All in all, Jynx is perfectly fine in S-tier, it's available for 5 gyms, the Elite 4, easy to train, has boosted exp and great IVs and easily defeats nearly every single Pokemon, it's really that good.
 
I've done a run with Exeggutor and agree that with SunnyBeam, Psychic, and Leech Seed/Sleep Powder this is very much B-Tier which I consider still great. If it were earlier, it would be A.

From reading the previous posts it looks like Machamp is staying in B. But for the record, I really did not enjoy running this mon due to the terrible speed. I'll always prefer fast sweepers when ranking on efficiency with exceptions for pokemon like Snorlax with the bulk, typing, and recovery options to work with the low speed. Guts was a non-factor given how situational it is. The higher-powered moves like Submission, Cross Chop, and Dynamic Punch all have drawbacks. Brick Break, Return, and Rock Slide are great but somewhat contested. With Machamp it was take damage, one shot, take damage, one shot.

Hitmonlee felt more efficient being able to often outspeed at base 87 and OHKO. Medium Fast Exp is nice, great fighting type options by level up. I would keep it at B.

I see what you're saying about Jynx. It has drawbacks compared to Alakazam and Mr. Mime. But the secondary ice-type stab is so useful it brings it back up IMO.
 

Ryota Mitarai

Shrektimus Prime
is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Top Smogon Media Contributor
This might be more of a nitpick, but Brick Break isn't contested at all, you can literally buy it at the Department Store. Return is probably not needed, because Strength is an alright option as well. Rock Slide is the only one that's close to being contested and I wouldn't call it contested enough (as in, not too many Pokemon want it to the point you need to account for that specifically). Also, Med Slow > Med Fast in most games; by the time Med Fast starts getting you levels more quickly, you will be late into the game and probably won't be enjoying the benefits of the group that much

(it's also worth mentioning that Lee and Machamp run the same set, for most of the game, which is Bulk Up / Brick Break / Strength / Rock Slide. Lee has been tested this way, for most parts anyways)

for Jynx, I will agree that it's better in S-tier and would rather not move it from there. To put it simply, it trivializes the game so brutally that it's not even funny; it sweeps all Gym Leaders (handles Blaine with two CMs), and manages to dent pretty much every E4 member; the only Pokemon before the Champion fight which I distinctly remember Jynx not beating are Agatha's second Gengar (because it's faster and kills you with Shadow Ball) and Lance's Aerodactyl and Gyarados. Yes, it does come relatively "late", but I do not differentiate between pre-Tower and post-Tower myself, though that's moreso personal than an official stance. And yes, it does require TMs, but Psychic and CM are fairly uncontested outside of other Psychic-types (though Psychic does have a few non-Psychics that want it). But as a whole, it outperforms the other Pokemon significantly and the fact it's got traded experience makes it even easier to accomplish that.
 
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