1. fair! it's a shame, really, i like charizard a lot but i didn't like using them all that much (at all). if you don't mind answering, how did they do before?
2. i don't think it works on the 3ds though.
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Pokémon Firered & Leafgreen In-Game Tier Discussion
- Thread starter Kurona
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2. i don't think it works on the 3ds though.
Quick something, I take it Lickitung’s bottom-tier placement is less due to a lack of power and more due to having to jump through a lot of hoops to actually get it, especially if you want it relatively early, to the point that it’s just better to use another Normal-type that’s easier to get (one of which just so happens to be necessary to even get Lickitung in the first place).
EDIT: Hell, it’d probably be easier just to use the Golduck/Slowbro you’d have to trade away.
EDIT: Hell, it’d probably be easier just to use the Golduck/Slowbro you’d have to trade away.
That's definitely the nail in the coffin, but outside of that it's a terrible Pokémon -- 55 attack, 60 special attack, non-existent speed and okay bulk. There's a couple saving graces in its TM movepool and boosted exp, but by and large it's just not doing anything. Would be happy to see tests prove me wrong, but at best I can only see it scoring a KO or two on weaker Pokémon with Hyper Beam.
Why is Hitmonlee in A and Hitmonchan in C? I'm not 100% confident due to not having used either, but they join at the same time and are extremely similar outside of lee having slightly more attack and speed, which doesn't seem like enough for 2 whole tiers of difference, maybe it's the difference between 1 tier but I doubt that as well tbh. I'm happy to test them in my next run if this is really contentious, but I feel like either Hitmonlee could move down or Hitmonchan could move up.
The power difference counts for a lot -- Lee having 120 attack is far, far more notable and capable of getting KOs than Chan's 76. Open to more testing and opinions as always, but I found Chan just a lot more middling when I used it.
Interesting, I agree that more tests are always good so I'll use one of them next run to see what my results are.
I think you mean 105 lol. 120 vs 105 is still a nice gap though, not sure how big it is in practice.
My mistake, must have been thinking of something else. I imagine it would do much better on a retest.
...oh right. For whatever reason I thought its offenses were better.
On another note I’ve been using Shellder in a run of FireRed and it’s been performing decently. While I’m not playing particularly efficiently, I will note that it performs well against the various Rock, Ground, Fire, and Flying-types I threw it in front of (or basically anything that was a primarily physical attacker, such as Koffing/Weezing thanks to their low SpD - I caught mine at Lv. 24 so it didn’t know Tackle), especially after I’d gotten Surf. I even managed to take on much of Celadon Gym with Icicle Spear/Aurora Beam since a lot of the Pokémon there don’t actually have a Grass-type attack. In hindsight, though, I should have taught it Secret Power or something to make use of its better Attack.
Just some food for thought if anyone decides to test Shellder.
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Back on it. This is where a few Pokémon that were powerhouses early on are starting to show a bit of a decline, Gyarados in particular -- its early final evolution made it a god once, but ultimately 60 special attack powering its STAB is starting to show its flaws. At the same time, Charmander is becoming an absolute beast now it has the tools it wants; and in general we're picking up the boosting moves that define everyone's late-game performance.
I also want to note that after this point (ie after Sabrina, before Blaine) I'm picking up both Leftovers. To get them you need the Itemfinder which requires 30 Pokémon registered in the dex. I feel this is fairly reasonable to assume of an average player at this point: you get a lot of gift Pokémon between Lapras and Hitmon and Eevee, your team itself will likely fill out about 8 dex spots, the Safari Zone in particular grants a lot of easy entries, all of this is bolstered by easily-obtainable stones and if that's still not enough, you can fly back to some early routes and throw balls at Pidgey and Weedle. I think it's unreasonable to assume this of a player before they reach Fuschia City, but if someone wants Leftovers; I feel at this point in the game there's plenty of extremely easy avenues through which to meet the requirements.
My feelings on rankings so far:-
- Charmander has seriously come into its own with strengths I wasn't even fully aware of myself before now, and I think it will do extremely well in the League, but I can definitely see it being borderline B, but I think it'll stay A. It is a very rough time before getting Flamethrower at Level 34 where even though it can handle a lot of matchups, it's not particularly fantastic at them. There is however nothing wrong with said matchups: it's still contributing a lot to them and I still find it a reliable Pokémon to fall back on, and I think Gyarados and Mr. Mime are just so good they overshadowed him. I could see it either way; I'm at least willing to say it's one of if not the worst thing in A.
- Magikarp is B. I could certainly see some League performances changing my mind on this, but at this point in the game there's only one or two battles hurting its reputation as a phenomenal powerhouse. Even when it's not doing a lot in battle, Intimidate support has proven invaluable and 130 atk-powered Strength is nothing to sneeze at; especially when it's as bulky as this.
- Mr. Mime is most likely going to S. I really don't think there's anything Alakazam can do that this thing can't, frankly I can see the argument that it's better! Its main two flaws are that catching an Abra to get it is annoying and there's a couple points where it can get too powerful, but those are some of the funniest flaws I can think of and at the end of the day boil down to minor annoyances. It levels up faster than god, is surprisingly saved by Magical Leaf in some early matchups that don't look great for it, and when it gets Psychic it's laughing. I can only imagine it'll be rolling on the floor now it's gotten Calm Mind, too.
- Machamp... is going to B. It's just not as good as I remembered it. There's definitive positives -- it levels up VERY quickly meaning you have Machamp just out of Rock Tunnel, it's got a lot of nice bulk to it, I imagine Bulk Up is gonna be great. But ultimately what's hurting it is that there's too many bad matchups out there. A strong Secret Power/Strength is really nice but it'll only take you so far when there's so many Psychics and Poisons to deal with. Hopefully with the League only having like three psychics and Agatha to deal with it'll show its stuff there.
I also want to note that after this point (ie after Sabrina, before Blaine) I'm picking up both Leftovers. To get them you need the Itemfinder which requires 30 Pokémon registered in the dex. I feel this is fairly reasonable to assume of an average player at this point: you get a lot of gift Pokémon between Lapras and Hitmon and Eevee, your team itself will likely fill out about 8 dex spots, the Safari Zone in particular grants a lot of easy entries, all of this is bolstered by easily-obtainable stones and if that's still not enough, you can fly back to some early routes and throw balls at Pidgey and Weedle. I think it's unreasonable to assume this of a player before they reach Fuschia City, but if someone wants Leftovers; I feel at this point in the game there's plenty of extremely easy avenues through which to meet the requirements.
Charmeleon: Level 29 (30 after Tangela). What do you think happens? In all honesty, this -is- possibly losable between paralysis chance and Charmeleon's lack of power, but most of the time Ember and Aerial Ace just win through. A-tier performance.
Gyarados: Level 29. Gyarados' first real L. Tangela doesn't bother it, but only being able to 3HKO the actual threats of Victreebel and Vileplume means Stun Spore + Giga Drain wears you down. C-tier performance bordering on D.
Mr. Mime: Level 29 (30 after Tangela). Yeah, clean sweep here! OHKOs all around with Psychic, and just because I felt like I tried out Psybeam and that's almost capable of OHKOs too. Even through Paralysis it just doesn't care; unless you're very unlucky you can shrug off a couple Giga Drains if things get to that state. This would be an S-tier performance without question... but obviously, if you're over Level 30 then you're going to have issues with obedience. Because of that I'm going to say an A-tier performance, but that depends on the level still.
Machamp: Level 29 (30 after Victreebel). A sweep, but only just. Victreebel outspeeding (admittedly, I have a -spe nature) means a lot of chip damage gets done between Giga Drain and Poison. Ultimately though Secret Power 2HKOs both Victreebel and Vileplume even through Giga Drain healing, and Guts Brick Break OHKOs Tangela. You do win if you're at full health, but being left with 8HP means I'm gonna class this as a B-tier performance leaning on A.
Gyarados: Level 29. Gyarados' first real L. Tangela doesn't bother it, but only being able to 3HKO the actual threats of Victreebel and Vileplume means Stun Spore + Giga Drain wears you down. C-tier performance bordering on D.
Mr. Mime: Level 29 (30 after Tangela). Yeah, clean sweep here! OHKOs all around with Psychic, and just because I felt like I tried out Psybeam and that's almost capable of OHKOs too. Even through Paralysis it just doesn't care; unless you're very unlucky you can shrug off a couple Giga Drains if things get to that state. This would be an S-tier performance without question... but obviously, if you're over Level 30 then you're going to have issues with obedience. Because of that I'm going to say an A-tier performance, but that depends on the level still.
Machamp: Level 29 (30 after Victreebel). A sweep, but only just. Victreebel outspeeding (admittedly, I have a -spe nature) means a lot of chip damage gets done between Giga Drain and Poison. Ultimately though Secret Power 2HKOs both Victreebel and Vileplume even through Giga Drain healing, and Guts Brick Break OHKOs Tangela. You do win if you're at full health, but being left with 8HP means I'm gonna class this as a B-tier performance leaning on A.
Charmeleon: Level 31. Bit of a mixed bag. 2HKOs the rocks just fine with Brick Break as they don't want to do anything back, but it's a 3HKO on Kangaskhan who's able to outspeed you and Tail Whip/Mega Punch you to death after a Fake Out. Perhaps it would have gone better with Flamethrower? B-tier performance.
Gyarados: Level 31. Brilliant. OHKOes the rocks with Water Pulse, and then is able to outspeed Kangaskhan and eventually wear it down with Secret Power/Dragon Rage. It takes a bit but even after -2 defence you only take 2/3 health from Mega Punch, and of course in other scenarios Intimidate is excellent team support given how dangerous Kangaskhan can be. S-tier performance.
Mr. Mime: Level 31. Clean sweep yet again! The rocks are outsped and OHKOed, but Kangaskhan goes surprisingly better than you'd expect because the AI tells it to use Bite which is possibly the least dangerous thing it could do, so you safely get to outspeed and 2HKO. S-tier performance.
Machamp: Level 31. It's outsped but doesn't really care; OHKOes the rocks and 2HKOes Kangaskhan while taking nothing from them (and almost got an OHKO on Kanga). S-tier performance.
Gyarados: Level 31. Brilliant. OHKOes the rocks with Water Pulse, and then is able to outspeed Kangaskhan and eventually wear it down with Secret Power/Dragon Rage. It takes a bit but even after -2 defence you only take 2/3 health from Mega Punch, and of course in other scenarios Intimidate is excellent team support given how dangerous Kangaskhan can be. S-tier performance.
Mr. Mime: Level 31. Clean sweep yet again! The rocks are outsped and OHKOed, but Kangaskhan goes surprisingly better than you'd expect because the AI tells it to use Bite which is possibly the least dangerous thing it could do, so you safely get to outspeed and 2HKO. S-tier performance.
Machamp: Level 31. It's outsped but doesn't really care; OHKOes the rocks and 2HKOes Kangaskhan while taking nothing from them (and almost got an OHKO on Kanga). S-tier performance.
Charizard: Level 38. Mixed performance. OHKOs both Koffing with Flamethrower, and much more notably 2HKOs Weezing with Flamethrower with no real pushback; but is only a 3HKO on Muk which between Minimize and general bulk is a bit of an endurance struggle it can easily lose. I didn't think to use Sunny Day here, but it would be easy to set up on Koffing and have a much better time against Muk and the fight as a whole. A-tier performance I'd say.
Gyarados: Level 39 (40 after Muk). First off, Surf is an OHKO on both Koffing which actually surprised me. Muk is a slight struggle, but Gyarados' really nice bulk and 3 Strengths get you through just fine. Finally, it just misses out on a 3HKO on Weezing with Surf; but if you have Hydro Pump like I did then it becomes an easy 2HKO. This matchup actually surprised me; Toxic and evasion tactics can lessen its odds but otherwise I'd say this just manages to be an A-tier performance.
Mr. Mime: Level 39 (40 after Muk). Lol. S-tier performance.
Machamp: Level 38. Interesting. Strength 2HKOes both Koffing, though it only takes 1/3 off of Muk before it Acid Armours and out-tanks you. Weezing however is a fun one because while Strength only does something like 1/5 damage, getting Toxiced means Guts Strength actually ends up taking it down in a couple hits! Very risky, but it's interesting to me how Guts can turn a bad matchup into a pretty decent one. I'm going to say C-tier matchup bordering on B; it's capable but not totally reliable.
Gyarados: Level 39 (40 after Muk). First off, Surf is an OHKO on both Koffing which actually surprised me. Muk is a slight struggle, but Gyarados' really nice bulk and 3 Strengths get you through just fine. Finally, it just misses out on a 3HKO on Weezing with Surf; but if you have Hydro Pump like I did then it becomes an easy 2HKO. This matchup actually surprised me; Toxic and evasion tactics can lessen its odds but otherwise I'd say this just manages to be an A-tier performance.
Mr. Mime: Level 39 (40 after Muk). Lol. S-tier performance.
Machamp: Level 38. Interesting. Strength 2HKOes both Koffing, though it only takes 1/3 off of Muk before it Acid Armours and out-tanks you. Weezing however is a fun one because while Strength only does something like 1/5 damage, getting Toxiced means Guts Strength actually ends up taking it down in a couple hits! Very risky, but it's interesting to me how Guts can turn a bad matchup into a pretty decent one. I'm going to say C-tier matchup bordering on B; it's capable but not totally reliable.
Charizard: Level 42. Decided to try out a fun strategy here: Sunny Day. One of my moveslots was useless and I picked this thing up on my way at the Safari Zone and I'm quite happy with the results. Pidgeot, Growlithe AND Alakazam are all instant OHKOs with Sunny Flamethrower and I don't think I need to tell you about Exeggcute, and what impresses me is that Sunny Flamethrower is a 3HKO on Blastoise! It was a little shaky, but ultimately this was a sweep. A-tier performance bordering on S.
Gyarados: Level 42. Surf OHKOs Growlithe and 2HKOs Pidgeot and Alakazam, and Growlithe's intimidate means you only 3HKO Exeggcute with Strength but all it can do is annoy you. Blastoise you can just 3HKO with Dragon Rage and all it can do is annoy you with Bite, and you end the fight with over half HP. Simple Pokémon, simple sweep, A-tier performance.
Mr. Mime: Level 41 (42 after Blastoise). For once in its life, no clean sweep. You can absolutely handle any of his Pokémon fine, mind. Growlithe is an OHKO, Alakazam a 3HKO (it has no moves) and Exeggcute a 2HKO with nothing interesting of note, but Pidgeot you 2HKO and Blastoise you 3HKO and both can do a LOT of damage. It can still win against anything you throw it out against, but the team is capable of wearing you down enough that it's not a sweep. A-tier performance.
Machamp: Level 42. A little average. Pidgeot more than likely will set up Featherdance, meaning that Rock Slide is a 2HKO (and Brick Break a 3HKO) and you take a ton of damage despite your bulk. Therefore, ignoring that; Exeggcute and Blastoise are both 2HKOs and you take little in return, and if Alakazam doesn't have any moves so you 2HKO that with Strength. Finally, Growlithe is of little concern; you 2HKO after an intimidate. Both Growlithe and Blastoise can be made even easier too with Revenge. This one... I can't lie, it's very shaky; and arguably the things it's not good against are the greatest threats (I imagine, too, that it's not got great success against Gyarados, Venusaur or Charizard). It can definitely pull through and provide a lot of support, and admittedly I didn't think to use Bulk Up which would make certain threats much easier, but this is a B-tier performance I feel.
Gyarados: Level 42. Surf OHKOs Growlithe and 2HKOs Pidgeot and Alakazam, and Growlithe's intimidate means you only 3HKO Exeggcute with Strength but all it can do is annoy you. Blastoise you can just 3HKO with Dragon Rage and all it can do is annoy you with Bite, and you end the fight with over half HP. Simple Pokémon, simple sweep, A-tier performance.
Mr. Mime: Level 41 (42 after Blastoise). For once in its life, no clean sweep. You can absolutely handle any of his Pokémon fine, mind. Growlithe is an OHKO, Alakazam a 3HKO (it has no moves) and Exeggcute a 2HKO with nothing interesting of note, but Pidgeot you 2HKO and Blastoise you 3HKO and both can do a LOT of damage. It can still win against anything you throw it out against, but the team is capable of wearing you down enough that it's not a sweep. A-tier performance.
Machamp: Level 42. A little average. Pidgeot more than likely will set up Featherdance, meaning that Rock Slide is a 2HKO (and Brick Break a 3HKO) and you take a ton of damage despite your bulk. Therefore, ignoring that; Exeggcute and Blastoise are both 2HKOs and you take little in return, and if Alakazam doesn't have any moves so you 2HKO that with Strength. Finally, Growlithe is of little concern; you 2HKO after an intimidate. Both Growlithe and Blastoise can be made even easier too with Revenge. This one... I can't lie, it's very shaky; and arguably the things it's not good against are the greatest threats (I imagine, too, that it's not got great success against Gyarados, Venusaur or Charizard). It can definitely pull through and provide a lot of support, and admittedly I didn't think to use Bulk Up which would make certain threats much easier, but this is a B-tier performance I feel.
Charizard: Level 42. Sunny Day Flamethrower OHKOs Nidorino, can OHKO Rhyhorn but it's a range, 2HKOs Nidoqueen, and just leaves Kangaskhan with a sliver. I imagine Fire Blast or Blast Burn would have obliterated the harder opponents, but even without Sunny Day you can take everything (barring Rhyhorn) down with Flamethrower. A-tier performance.
Gyarados: Level 42. Surf 2HKOs the Nidos and OHKOs Rhyhorn, while Kangaskhan is a 3HKO with Strength or a 2HKO with Hydro Pump. Once again, simple fight. S-tier performance.
Mr. Mime: Level 43. And we're back to clean sweeping like nothing ever happened. Nidoqueen and Kangaskhan are 2HKOs and don't try to do anything to you? Kangaskhan doesn't even use Fake Out. Weird. The others are OHKOs, S-tier performance.
Machamp: Level 42. I remember Bulk Up exists and it's a sweep! At +1 Strength OHKOs Nidorino and Nidoqueen, and Revenge OHKOs Kangaskhan and Rhyhorn. You come out scarred but ultimately you just win, S-tier performance.
Gyarados: Level 42. Surf 2HKOs the Nidos and OHKOs Rhyhorn, while Kangaskhan is a 3HKO with Strength or a 2HKO with Hydro Pump. Once again, simple fight. S-tier performance.
Mr. Mime: Level 43. And we're back to clean sweeping like nothing ever happened. Nidoqueen and Kangaskhan are 2HKOs and don't try to do anything to you? Kangaskhan doesn't even use Fake Out. Weird. The others are OHKOs, S-tier performance.
Machamp: Level 42. I remember Bulk Up exists and it's a sweep! At +1 Strength OHKOs Nidorino and Nidoqueen, and Revenge OHKOs Kangaskhan and Rhyhorn. You come out scarred but ultimately you just win, S-tier performance.
Charizard: Level 44. Outspeeds and OHKOs everything with Sunny Day Flamethrower! This thing's a beast, S-tier performance
Gyarados: Level 43 (44 after Mr. Mime). Pretty good! No-one ever talks about Gyarados' amazing special bulk but it's seriously its best asset in the late-game. Strength OHKOs Kadabra and 2HKOs everything else, though Alakazam outspeeds you and could potentially take you out with Calm Mind Psychic if you've taken enough damage before then. A-tier performance
Mr. Mime: Level 43. Naturally its worst showing yet. Venomoth dies, but Calm Mind shenanigans and your best move being Psychic means that Kadabra and Mr. Mime are very difficult to deal with -- you can win the resilience war but it can go either way really especially when they're ganging up on you. Alakazam is not happening. At base you do outdamage it with Psychic, but then it starts using Calm Mind and Recover and you're done. C-tier performance.
Machamp: Level 43. It's capable of using Strength/Rock Slide to take out Kadabra, Venomoth and Mr. Mime just fine, but Mr. Mime is a 2HKO and all of them outspeed you and deal quite a bit of damage. Alakazam instantly OHKOs you. C-tier performance.
Gyarados: Level 43 (44 after Mr. Mime). Pretty good! No-one ever talks about Gyarados' amazing special bulk but it's seriously its best asset in the late-game. Strength OHKOs Kadabra and 2HKOs everything else, though Alakazam outspeeds you and could potentially take you out with Calm Mind Psychic if you've taken enough damage before then. A-tier performance
Mr. Mime: Level 43. Naturally its worst showing yet. Venomoth dies, but Calm Mind shenanigans and your best move being Psychic means that Kadabra and Mr. Mime are very difficult to deal with -- you can win the resilience war but it can go either way really especially when they're ganging up on you. Alakazam is not happening. At base you do outdamage it with Psychic, but then it starts using Calm Mind and Recover and you're done. C-tier performance.
Machamp: Level 43. It's capable of using Strength/Rock Slide to take out Kadabra, Venomoth and Mr. Mime just fine, but Mr. Mime is a 2HKO and all of them outspeed you and deal quite a bit of damage. Alakazam instantly OHKOs you. C-tier performance.
My feelings on rankings so far:-
- Charmander has seriously come into its own with strengths I wasn't even fully aware of myself before now, and I think it will do extremely well in the League, but I can definitely see it being borderline B, but I think it'll stay A. It is a very rough time before getting Flamethrower at Level 34 where even though it can handle a lot of matchups, it's not particularly fantastic at them. There is however nothing wrong with said matchups: it's still contributing a lot to them and I still find it a reliable Pokémon to fall back on, and I think Gyarados and Mr. Mime are just so good they overshadowed him. I could see it either way; I'm at least willing to say it's one of if not the worst thing in A.
- Magikarp is B. I could certainly see some League performances changing my mind on this, but at this point in the game there's only one or two battles hurting its reputation as a phenomenal powerhouse. Even when it's not doing a lot in battle, Intimidate support has proven invaluable and 130 atk-powered Strength is nothing to sneeze at; especially when it's as bulky as this.
- Mr. Mime is most likely going to S. I really don't think there's anything Alakazam can do that this thing can't, frankly I can see the argument that it's better! Its main two flaws are that catching an Abra to get it is annoying and there's a couple points where it can get too powerful, but those are some of the funniest flaws I can think of and at the end of the day boil down to minor annoyances. It levels up faster than god, is surprisingly saved by Magical Leaf in some early matchups that don't look great for it, and when it gets Psychic it's laughing. I can only imagine it'll be rolling on the floor now it's gotten Calm Mind, too.
- Machamp... is going to B. It's just not as good as I remembered it. There's definitive positives -- it levels up VERY quickly meaning you have Machamp just out of Rock Tunnel, it's got a lot of nice bulk to it, I imagine Bulk Up is gonna be great. But ultimately what's hurting it is that there's too many bad matchups out there. A strong Secret Power/Strength is really nice but it'll only take you so far when there's so many Psychics and Poisons to deal with. Hopefully with the League only having like three psychics and Agatha to deal with it'll show its stuff there.
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Glad for the update! Wanted to comment on how good weather in general seems to be doing, sunny day helping your Charizard get boosts in matchups even without solarbeam/chlorophyll makes me realize the power boost is more important than I thought. It's also been really nice on Omastar in my run (logs soon btw, been busy but i'm at the elite 4) since it just outspeeds and beats so much because of swift swim. Definitely gonna keep sunny day/rain dance in mind when doing future runs!
I am in fact planning to incorporate Solarbeam, too! I think it'll really help turn around some matchups, particularly Lorelei and Blastoise; it's just that I didn't have it yet. And not to spoil anything, but Gyarados learns Rain Dance at level 45 and I just used that to completely overwhelm Blaine.
Very glad to hear it's also working out for Omastar! Brings me back to Sunnybeam/Chlorophyll really turning Exeggutor around
Finished! This run was fun, any excuse to replay the first game I ever played is good to me, will definitely do another one soon since I'll have more free time than I did in January. Here's the logs!
Now for my nominations,
for D tier. A few other people supported this earlier and it makes sense to me as well. Solid early game performance that is quite helpful until Erika, where it starts getting worse and worse until it becomes basically deadweight in the Elite 4. It should have pin missile over twineedle just so it has at least a chance to Ohko the late game psychics. Definitely a bad mon due to low stats, no good stab and needing a few TMs, but clearly above the likes of Porygon, Ditto and Chansey.
for D tier. Similar to beedrill but it trades beating early game psychics for a screech hyper beam combo to stay relevant for a bit longer. This combo is great on paper but either I was way underleveled or it falls off late game due to poor base attack and everything getting bulkier. Also has abysmal performances vs rock types unless it has the high demand earthquake TM and vs ghost types no matter what. It's main two moves having imperfect accuracy also hurts reliability, but it does have a solid enough early game and mediocre enough mid game to avoid the lowest tier IMO.
for staying in E tier. I said it in one of the logs, but it truly is impressive how much this game hates Onix. Special attacks everywhere due to no special split, garbage stabs without a tutor and a lategame TM, almost every poison type floating/flying to avoid it's best stab and truly atrocious stats to top it all off. Can barely contribute in positive matchups outside of ones shortly after you pick it up that only use physical attacks, and utterly fails at being a rock type due to horrible power meaning it won't even Ohko a Charizard. Literally no 100% accurate moves until earthquake either, meaning in almost every fight you have to pray to rngesus that everything hits. About the only thing Onix has going for it is availibility, but that just means it sucks exp for a longer amount of time.
for C tier. Obviously there's two big issues with Dragonite's line, and that's the cost of getting it early and the extremely late evolution, but neither of these are necessarily deal breakers. If you do want to catch one without paying you can use the super rod in the safari zone and only miss two major fights, Erika and Giovanni 1. It will need a grind however so this isn't perfect, but may be preferable to spending the extra cash. As for the level 55 evolution, I found Dragonair to be fairly good in the mid game, never truly being useless and contributing in every major fight thanks to surf and dragon rage access. Dragonite is of course fantastic, sweeping 4/5 members of the elite 4, and needing a game corner TM for this isn't such a big deal since you have enough money by this point and it's unnecessary earlier. Never had a bad time using this mon , would maybe say B tier if it wasn't for the issues with obtaining one.
for D tier, argument for C. To be frank this thing destroys everything between Koga and Lorelei, it struggles too much vs some of the elite 4 and needs a bit too much support there for C tier in my eyes, but I could absolutely see it in reach. Grinding it up is also no issue, similar to how Texas used Aerodactyl I just trained it in Silph Co vs the hordes of rocket grunts and it was pretty much ready to go after that. I was also Impish, may have affected the elite 4 enough to matter but I'm not sure how much a regular natured one would have performed better. Seeing as it was never deadweight even in it's worst performances and absolutely trashes mid game I have a very hard time seeing Omanyte in E tier now. If anyone disagrees with this nom or one of the other then please speak up, I encourage discussion on them!
Also a quick question, what's a good level for the elite 4? My whole team was in the low 50s bar Dragonite since that's what I remembered from the last time I beat this game, but everything that wasn't a dragon struggled a fair bit. Is this just due to only using low tier mons or should I have taken everyone to say, level 55?
Team Arbok lvl 40, Beedrill lvl 39, Dragonair lvl 39, Onix lvl 40, Omanyte lvl 32
Arbok. Screech + Hyper beam is better than I thought. Screech beam Ohkos everything unless you get lowered attack from Pidgeot or Gyarados, so the only mons you don't always beat 1v1 are Exeggcute (para and confusion mean you might get 3hkod before getting hyper beam off.) and Charizard who 2hkos with flamethrower, but usually does something useless like scary face turn 1. In terms of sweeping, if you don't switch you usually die facing gyarados due to the recharge turns giving the psychics time to chip you, but might at least smack gyara with a hyper beam before going down. If you do switch (to reset charge turns, I just sacked an hm slave and let something else beat Exeggcute.) then you beat Pidgeot and Gyarados with screechbeam, and Alakazam with just hyper beam, still usually gets chipped enough to not be able to take a flamethrower(~70/100). Better performance than I expected, Screech + hyper beam seems like a good niche.
Onix. Pidgeot is a good enough matchup, 2 rock slides is a KO, 3 if it uses featherdance. After Pidgeot Onix will be able to (accuracy not withstanding) 1v1 any other mon the rival has except Exeggcute, but only one of them. It beats Alakazam because haha future sight, although if it actually takes that future sight then it won't have the HP to take on either Charizard or Gyarados. Speaking of Gyarados, it's a 2hko without intimidate, with intimidate you need screech + one rock slide KOs. It's an ok matchup, despite the rival having 3 rock weak mons you only realistically beat 2 per attempt, bad special bulk really stings.
Beedrill. Pidgeot is an awful MU, 3hkoing at best with brick break while the bird 2hkos (~80/106!) with wing attack. Both psychics are extremly good however, easy ohkos with twinneedle and outspeeds both. Charizard obviously wrecks you with a flamethrower Ohko, and even a crit aerial ace doesn't kill it. Gyarados isn't as bad as you might think, it's only threatening move is dragon rage (bite is ~13 damage) and aerial ace is a 4hko, so you basically just need anything except 2 or more dragon rages and you win. Intimidated aerial ace becomes a 6hko which is just a bit too luck dependent, but technically possible. Positive matchup vs 3 mons, hilariously bad vs the other two.
Dragonair. 2hko vs Pidgeot with thunderbolt. Ohko and outspeed Gyarados who is sent out next for some reason. Charizard is a 2hko with surf, although I have modest and a mystic water boost, 3hko without either of those I suspect. Next up is the eggs, confusion only does ~20 damage but that's enough to 2hko you before dragon rage can 3hko back due to all the chip. It likes to spam stun spore until it connects however, so with some luck (or a potion) you can beat it. If you switch in on Exeggcute then you obviously win, and even paralyzed vs Zam it's a joke due to only knowing future sight for damage, dragon rage 3hko. Very good matchup, only thing limiting a sweep is HP basically. Worth noting a game corner TM was essential in this fight and I just barely had the money for all of ice beam, mystic water(for Omastar) and thunderbolt(for Dragonair).
Omanyte. level 32 is what I was at after some experience from silph co grunts, also yes, a level 32 Omanyte does good enough to note in this fight. VS Pidgeot ice beam is a 3hko, rain+mystic water boosted surfs 2hkos, but same amount of turns so eh. For Exeggcute, 2hkos with ice beam so you only need to dodge one status move. Alakazam is either a 3hko with bite or 2hko with rain boosted surf. You can't touch Gyarados sadly, ice beam is a 5hko. Even with rain you won't outspeed Charizard, but it can't hurt you so just rain dance surf and win. Solid performance, especially considering it's 8 levels beneath the rest of my team.
Arbok. Screech + Hyper beam is better than I thought. Screech beam Ohkos everything unless you get lowered attack from Pidgeot or Gyarados, so the only mons you don't always beat 1v1 are Exeggcute (para and confusion mean you might get 3hkod before getting hyper beam off.) and Charizard who 2hkos with flamethrower, but usually does something useless like scary face turn 1. In terms of sweeping, if you don't switch you usually die facing gyarados due to the recharge turns giving the psychics time to chip you, but might at least smack gyara with a hyper beam before going down. If you do switch (to reset charge turns, I just sacked an hm slave and let something else beat Exeggcute.) then you beat Pidgeot and Gyarados with screechbeam, and Alakazam with just hyper beam, still usually gets chipped enough to not be able to take a flamethrower(~70/100). Better performance than I expected, Screech + hyper beam seems like a good niche.
Onix. Pidgeot is a good enough matchup, 2 rock slides is a KO, 3 if it uses featherdance. After Pidgeot Onix will be able to (accuracy not withstanding) 1v1 any other mon the rival has except Exeggcute, but only one of them. It beats Alakazam because haha future sight, although if it actually takes that future sight then it won't have the HP to take on either Charizard or Gyarados. Speaking of Gyarados, it's a 2hko without intimidate, with intimidate you need screech + one rock slide KOs. It's an ok matchup, despite the rival having 3 rock weak mons you only realistically beat 2 per attempt, bad special bulk really stings.
Beedrill. Pidgeot is an awful MU, 3hkoing at best with brick break while the bird 2hkos (~80/106!) with wing attack. Both psychics are extremly good however, easy ohkos with twinneedle and outspeeds both. Charizard obviously wrecks you with a flamethrower Ohko, and even a crit aerial ace doesn't kill it. Gyarados isn't as bad as you might think, it's only threatening move is dragon rage (bite is ~13 damage) and aerial ace is a 4hko, so you basically just need anything except 2 or more dragon rages and you win. Intimidated aerial ace becomes a 6hko which is just a bit too luck dependent, but technically possible. Positive matchup vs 3 mons, hilariously bad vs the other two.
Dragonair. 2hko vs Pidgeot with thunderbolt. Ohko and outspeed Gyarados who is sent out next for some reason. Charizard is a 2hko with surf, although I have modest and a mystic water boost, 3hko without either of those I suspect. Next up is the eggs, confusion only does ~20 damage but that's enough to 2hko you before dragon rage can 3hko back due to all the chip. It likes to spam stun spore until it connects however, so with some luck (or a potion) you can beat it. If you switch in on Exeggcute then you obviously win, and even paralyzed vs Zam it's a joke due to only knowing future sight for damage, dragon rage 3hko. Very good matchup, only thing limiting a sweep is HP basically. Worth noting a game corner TM was essential in this fight and I just barely had the money for all of ice beam, mystic water(for Omastar) and thunderbolt(for Dragonair).
Omanyte. level 32 is what I was at after some experience from silph co grunts, also yes, a level 32 Omanyte does good enough to note in this fight. VS Pidgeot ice beam is a 3hko, rain+mystic water boosted surfs 2hkos, but same amount of turns so eh. For Exeggcute, 2hkos with ice beam so you only need to dodge one status move. Alakazam is either a 3hko with bite or 2hko with rain boosted surf. You can't touch Gyarados sadly, ice beam is a 5hko. Even with rain you won't outspeed Charizard, but it can't hurt you so just rain dance surf and win. Solid performance, especially considering it's 8 levels beneath the rest of my team.
Team Arbok lvl 40, Beedrill lvl 39, Dragonair lvl 39, Onix lvl 40, Omanyte lvl 34 (35 after Nidoqueen)
Omanyte. Rain dance, then surf 2hkos Nidorino and Nidoqueen. Rain stops vs Rhyhorn but it's an ohko with surf regardless. Set up rain again vs Kanga, then 2hko with surf. Excellent matchup, giovanni bad.
Arbok. Nidorino goes down to 2 returns and can't hurt you. 1 Screech + hyper beam barely misses an Ohko vs Kangaskhan, so Screech + 2 returns is your best bet. Rhyhorn is winnable but will usually do above half to you while you try to screech and chip with return, so it's not advised due to it's normal resistance making things complicated. Nidoqueen also can't hurt you much, and also just barely live hyper beam after a screech. 2 Returns after screech gets the job done. Very good matchup, only problem mon is one that folds to any special attack so just needs that bit of support and handles the rest.
Beedrill. Aerial ace is still my best move for poison types, which stings (haha get it) because it means even weak Nidorino is a 3hko that chips a fair bit with fury attack. Rhyhorn thankfully lets you get some health back with giga drain, and I never saw it use rock blast even though I only 2hkod it. Kanga is Barely a 3hko with brick break (it has like 1 hp after two) and is only a threat if it mega punches, which is not super common for some reason. Nidoqueen is perhaps the peak of gen 3 AI in this fight. Body slam is a 3hko even if you're at full, and usually a 2hko by the time you get here. Despite that, most of the time it just wastes it's turns with tail whip and double kick or a weak poison sting. So even though aerial ace is like a 6hko Beedrill often comes out on top. Tested this matchup a few times to make sure it wasn't a fluke, and it wasn't, gen 3 AI is just that bad. Bad matchup on paper but in practice it just works.
Onix. Finally a matchup where Onix can put in some work! Sky high defense mean you wall everything and hit back hard with- oh nevermind Giovanni got a 30% poison chance so now you lose or waste time and use an antidote. Jokes aside Onix does fairly well here if it avoids poison. Screech + 1 dig KOs Nidorino, 2 screeches for the Ohko on Nidoqueen who seems to not like spamming double kick. Kanga struggles to do damage unless you've been tail whipped a bunch, so just screech and 3hko with rock slide. Rhyhorn is laughable, it's lucky to do more than 10 damage before you screech and dig it to death. Overall a pretty solid matchup, sucks that poison exists but good outside of that.
Dragonair. Surf spam beats this fight, it 3hkos both Nidos easily. Surf is a 4hko on Kangaskhan, but you should make it despite mega punch being strong, thanks to AI just spamming rage and tail whip. Dragon rage KOs all of those mons in the same amount of turns but surf can crit at least so use it instead. Rhyhorn is obviously an Ohko with surf. Not much to say, positive matchup as long as you don't get unlucky with the AI actually having a brain.
Omanyte. Rain dance, then surf 2hkos Nidorino and Nidoqueen. Rain stops vs Rhyhorn but it's an ohko with surf regardless. Set up rain again vs Kanga, then 2hko with surf. Excellent matchup, giovanni bad.
Arbok. Nidorino goes down to 2 returns and can't hurt you. 1 Screech + hyper beam barely misses an Ohko vs Kangaskhan, so Screech + 2 returns is your best bet. Rhyhorn is winnable but will usually do above half to you while you try to screech and chip with return, so it's not advised due to it's normal resistance making things complicated. Nidoqueen also can't hurt you much, and also just barely live hyper beam after a screech. 2 Returns after screech gets the job done. Very good matchup, only problem mon is one that folds to any special attack so just needs that bit of support and handles the rest.
Beedrill. Aerial ace is still my best move for poison types, which stings (haha get it) because it means even weak Nidorino is a 3hko that chips a fair bit with fury attack. Rhyhorn thankfully lets you get some health back with giga drain, and I never saw it use rock blast even though I only 2hkod it. Kanga is Barely a 3hko with brick break (it has like 1 hp after two) and is only a threat if it mega punches, which is not super common for some reason. Nidoqueen is perhaps the peak of gen 3 AI in this fight. Body slam is a 3hko even if you're at full, and usually a 2hko by the time you get here. Despite that, most of the time it just wastes it's turns with tail whip and double kick or a weak poison sting. So even though aerial ace is like a 6hko Beedrill often comes out on top. Tested this matchup a few times to make sure it wasn't a fluke, and it wasn't, gen 3 AI is just that bad. Bad matchup on paper but in practice it just works.
Onix. Finally a matchup where Onix can put in some work! Sky high defense mean you wall everything and hit back hard with- oh nevermind Giovanni got a 30% poison chance so now you lose or waste time and use an antidote. Jokes aside Onix does fairly well here if it avoids poison. Screech + 1 dig KOs Nidorino, 2 screeches for the Ohko on Nidoqueen who seems to not like spamming double kick. Kanga struggles to do damage unless you've been tail whipped a bunch, so just screech and 3hko with rock slide. Rhyhorn is laughable, it's lucky to do more than 10 damage before you screech and dig it to death. Overall a pretty solid matchup, sucks that poison exists but good outside of that.
Dragonair. Surf spam beats this fight, it 3hkos both Nidos easily. Surf is a 4hko on Kangaskhan, but you should make it despite mega punch being strong, thanks to AI just spamming rage and tail whip. Dragon rage KOs all of those mons in the same amount of turns but surf can crit at least so use it instead. Rhyhorn is obviously an Ohko with surf. Not much to say, positive matchup as long as you don't get unlucky with the AI actually having a brain.
Team Arbok lvl 40, Beedrill lvl 39, Dragonair lvl 39, Onix lvl 40, Omastar lvl 40
Omastar. Even after fighting all the trainers in Sabrinas gym Omanyte was level 39, so I just used a rare candy on it. Wanted to note that incase it's a strong negative, but it seems like a pretty good use of them to me. Onto the fight, set up rain vs Kadabra, surf Ohkos even through calm mind. Very good chance to Ohko Mr. Mime, I was -sp atk so likely guarenteed without that. Ohko Venomoth with surf. Rain runs out after one surf vs Zam and you barely miss an Ohko, but if does anything except use psychic twice or calm mind followed by psychic then you have time to set it up again and win. If this is really a problem to you, you can waste turns with bite vs venomoth and then set up rain and KO it, and have several turns left to KO Alakazam. Incredibly good matchup, easily sweeps with only one minor roadblock and outspeeds everything on Sabrina's team under rain.
Arbok. Does better than you might think, outspeeds and Ohkos Kadabra with return. Mr. Mime is a 2hko with return, so you can either bank on it not attacking (most of the time it uses barrier or calm mind, occasionaly it does go for psybeam though.) or use hyper beam and switch. Alakazam outspeeds and Ohkos you with psychic, which it does use more than half the time. If it goes for future sight instead, then you can Ohko it with hyper beam. Venomoth's psybeam and Zam's future sight both do about a third, but 2 returns KO the moth so a just a bit more luck is needed. Good matchup, but inconsitent due to relying on bad AI to sweep.
Beedrill. Similar to Arbok, it outspeeds and Ohkos Kadabra. Twineedle lets you Ohko Mr. Mime as well. Alakazam is another round of please don't use psychic, sadly it does about 70% of the time. If Sabrina is bad and uses future sight then you can Ohko zam with twineedle and 2hko Venomoth with aerial ace before future sight hits you. Good matchup, would be far improved if it could just take a Zam psychic but sadly it can't.
Onix. Oh how I wish it could become a Steelix before the postgame. Kadabra is usually an Ohko (although I did lose once due to missing rock slide while it ohkod with +1 psybeam lol) but it's annoying if it sets up reflect. Mr. Mime is very bad, any of barrier, calm mind or psybeam are bad since +1 psybeam ohkos you, and barrier makes your 2hko a 3hko, and screech won't work due to soundproof. If you somehow make it past Mr. Mime, Venomoth isn't even a great matchup since it outspeeds and rock slide is a 2hko. Just forget about fighting Zam. Bad matchup, only reliably takes out one mon and sometimes forces a potion on another.
Dragonair. Dragon rage continues to be good despite dealing near identical damage to surf, as the exact damage means it always 2hkos Kadabra while surf only does so without calm mind. Same goes for Mr. Mime. For Venomoth, use thunder wave (twice as Sabrina has 1 full heal) and then spam surf. The damage rolls work in a way that Sabrina always heals after 2 attacks, so even if you win you won't have the HP to live a Zam psychic. Solid matchup, always beats 2 mons and reliably beats a 3rd.
Omastar. Even after fighting all the trainers in Sabrinas gym Omanyte was level 39, so I just used a rare candy on it. Wanted to note that incase it's a strong negative, but it seems like a pretty good use of them to me. Onto the fight, set up rain vs Kadabra, surf Ohkos even through calm mind. Very good chance to Ohko Mr. Mime, I was -sp atk so likely guarenteed without that. Ohko Venomoth with surf. Rain runs out after one surf vs Zam and you barely miss an Ohko, but if does anything except use psychic twice or calm mind followed by psychic then you have time to set it up again and win. If this is really a problem to you, you can waste turns with bite vs venomoth and then set up rain and KO it, and have several turns left to KO Alakazam. Incredibly good matchup, easily sweeps with only one minor roadblock and outspeeds everything on Sabrina's team under rain.
Arbok. Does better than you might think, outspeeds and Ohkos Kadabra with return. Mr. Mime is a 2hko with return, so you can either bank on it not attacking (most of the time it uses barrier or calm mind, occasionaly it does go for psybeam though.) or use hyper beam and switch. Alakazam outspeeds and Ohkos you with psychic, which it does use more than half the time. If it goes for future sight instead, then you can Ohko it with hyper beam. Venomoth's psybeam and Zam's future sight both do about a third, but 2 returns KO the moth so a just a bit more luck is needed. Good matchup, but inconsitent due to relying on bad AI to sweep.
Beedrill. Similar to Arbok, it outspeeds and Ohkos Kadabra. Twineedle lets you Ohko Mr. Mime as well. Alakazam is another round of please don't use psychic, sadly it does about 70% of the time. If Sabrina is bad and uses future sight then you can Ohko zam with twineedle and 2hko Venomoth with aerial ace before future sight hits you. Good matchup, would be far improved if it could just take a Zam psychic but sadly it can't.
Onix. Oh how I wish it could become a Steelix before the postgame. Kadabra is usually an Ohko (although I did lose once due to missing rock slide while it ohkod with +1 psybeam lol) but it's annoying if it sets up reflect. Mr. Mime is very bad, any of barrier, calm mind or psybeam are bad since +1 psybeam ohkos you, and barrier makes your 2hko a 3hko, and screech won't work due to soundproof. If you somehow make it past Mr. Mime, Venomoth isn't even a great matchup since it outspeeds and rock slide is a 2hko. Just forget about fighting Zam. Bad matchup, only reliably takes out one mon and sometimes forces a potion on another.
Dragonair. Dragon rage continues to be good despite dealing near identical damage to surf, as the exact damage means it always 2hkos Kadabra while surf only does so without calm mind. Same goes for Mr. Mime. For Venomoth, use thunder wave (twice as Sabrina has 1 full heal) and then spam surf. The damage rolls work in a way that Sabrina always heals after 2 attacks, so even if you win you won't have the HP to live a Zam psychic. Solid matchup, always beats 2 mons and reliably beats a 3rd.
Team Dragonair lvl 41 (42 after Growlithe), Arbok lvl 43, Beedrill lvl 43, Onix lvl 40, Omastar lvl 40
Dragonair. Surf is an easy Ohko on Growlithe, same goes for Ponyta and you outspeed both. Slower than Rapidash and surf is only a 2hko, but it struggles to hurt you, half health at most if it hits and uses 2 fire blasts. Arcanine is basically the same, outspeeds you and surf 2hkos. Never had any trouble sweeping here, basically perfect matchup.
Beedrill. Growlithe is a 2hko with brick break, with or without the intimidate. Ponyta is a 3hko at -1 and 2hko without it, but you need to dodge fire blasts to get it so good luck. Doesn't do anything notable vs Rapidash or Arcanine either. really bad matchup that requires luck and grinding to win.
Arbok. Screech + return Ohkos Growlithe despite -1, and same story for Ponyta. You take two fire blasts from those two and outspeed Rapidash, so may as well chunk it with hyper beam before going down. Can switch in after something on your team goes down and Ohko Arcanine with screech + hyper beam. Good matchup, didn't expect it to outspeed every opposing mon, special bulk prevents a sweep but can at least 1v1 the threats or KO both unevolved mons.
Onix. Rock slide manages an Ohko on Growlithe as long as you sack an HM slave to remove intimidate. Arcanine comes in next, so switch out to another slave, come back in and watch rock slide do barely 1/3rd to Arcanine. Admittedly I was quite underleveled during this fight because I couldn't get experience from the water routes and gave Silph Co and the Mansion trainers to other mons (didn't want to go grinding either), but even at a more comparable level Fire blast definitely still 2hkos you because it nearly Ohkos here. Bad performance, special bulk continues to hold it back.
Omastar. Set up rain vs Growlithe, bite does hardly anything to you. Outspeed and Ohko everything on Blaine's team with a 100% accurate surf. 5 turns to KO 4 mons, very close to a literal pefect performance.
Dragonair. Surf is an easy Ohko on Growlithe, same goes for Ponyta and you outspeed both. Slower than Rapidash and surf is only a 2hko, but it struggles to hurt you, half health at most if it hits and uses 2 fire blasts. Arcanine is basically the same, outspeeds you and surf 2hkos. Never had any trouble sweeping here, basically perfect matchup.
Beedrill. Growlithe is a 2hko with brick break, with or without the intimidate. Ponyta is a 3hko at -1 and 2hko without it, but you need to dodge fire blasts to get it so good luck. Doesn't do anything notable vs Rapidash or Arcanine either. really bad matchup that requires luck and grinding to win.
Arbok. Screech + return Ohkos Growlithe despite -1, and same story for Ponyta. You take two fire blasts from those two and outspeed Rapidash, so may as well chunk it with hyper beam before going down. Can switch in after something on your team goes down and Ohko Arcanine with screech + hyper beam. Good matchup, didn't expect it to outspeed every opposing mon, special bulk prevents a sweep but can at least 1v1 the threats or KO both unevolved mons.
Onix. Rock slide manages an Ohko on Growlithe as long as you sack an HM slave to remove intimidate. Arcanine comes in next, so switch out to another slave, come back in and watch rock slide do barely 1/3rd to Arcanine. Admittedly I was quite underleveled during this fight because I couldn't get experience from the water routes and gave Silph Co and the Mansion trainers to other mons (didn't want to go grinding either), but even at a more comparable level Fire blast definitely still 2hkos you because it nearly Ohkos here. Bad performance, special bulk continues to hold it back.
Omastar. Set up rain vs Growlithe, bite does hardly anything to you. Outspeed and Ohko everything on Blaine's team with a 100% accurate surf. 5 turns to KO 4 mons, very close to a literal pefect performance.
Team Dragonair lvl 44, Arbok lvl 44, Beedrill lvl 44, Omastar lvl 41, Onix lvl 45
Arbok. Don't lead with it as you can't touch Rhyhorns, even at -6 defense you don't Ohko the first one with hyper beam and get 2hkod through intimidate. Switching it in later Dugtrio is an Ohko with hyper beam (you outspeed), and screechbeam let's you beat one of the Nidos. Can't beat both but at least KOs one and chunks the other before going down. Weird matchup, okay performance that needs some support vs the Rhyhorns.
Dragonair. Very simple matchup, as it's literally just surf spam. Ohko Rhyhorn #1 and Dugtrio (it outspeeds), Nidoqueen is a 2hko but you outspeed and win. HP is too low to beat Nidoking but surf would be a 2hko if you healed and Rhyhorn #2 is definitely an Ohko. Good matchup, just lacks a bit of bulk to sweep.
Beedrill. Vs the Rhyhorns 1 Brick break + 1 Giga drain will KO each of them without putting them in potion range. If you switch to some HM slave and come back then you outspeed and 2hko Dugtrio, otherwise you lose due to speed drops. Can't touch either of the Nidos, aerial ace is roughly a 5hko on Nidoqueen. Mediocre matchup, doesn't handle the most threatening mons at all but can beat the weaker ones.
Onix. Truly remarkable how much of this game seems built to screw over Onix at every turn. Especially because EQ would improve this matchup so much, and this is the gym you gain it from :(. Anyway onto the performance, beating Rhyhorn is unreliable, but possible as long as nothing misses. Screech + rock slide + iron tail guarentees a KO at my level and avoids a potion. Problem is you get 2hkod by EQ so you need a lot of luck to both hit and hope Rhyhorn uses the right move. You can also come in (after one of your mons dies) on Dugtrio who 3hkos you with EQ while you 2hko with iron tail. You can't beat anything else, Screech only makes iron tail a 3hko on Nidoqueen who 3hkos you, didn't even try Nidoking. Terrible showing, requires a lot of overleveling to do much in this fight.
Omastar. Start by Ohkoing both Rhyhorns before setting up rain, to avoid scary face messing with your speed. Use rain dance vs Dugtrio (does a bit under half to you) and then outspeed and Ohko the rest of Giovanni's team. Excellent matchup, again only one turn off from a perfect sweep.
Arbok. Don't lead with it as you can't touch Rhyhorns, even at -6 defense you don't Ohko the first one with hyper beam and get 2hkod through intimidate. Switching it in later Dugtrio is an Ohko with hyper beam (you outspeed), and screechbeam let's you beat one of the Nidos. Can't beat both but at least KOs one and chunks the other before going down. Weird matchup, okay performance that needs some support vs the Rhyhorns.
Dragonair. Very simple matchup, as it's literally just surf spam. Ohko Rhyhorn #1 and Dugtrio (it outspeeds), Nidoqueen is a 2hko but you outspeed and win. HP is too low to beat Nidoking but surf would be a 2hko if you healed and Rhyhorn #2 is definitely an Ohko. Good matchup, just lacks a bit of bulk to sweep.
Beedrill. Vs the Rhyhorns 1 Brick break + 1 Giga drain will KO each of them without putting them in potion range. If you switch to some HM slave and come back then you outspeed and 2hko Dugtrio, otherwise you lose due to speed drops. Can't touch either of the Nidos, aerial ace is roughly a 5hko on Nidoqueen. Mediocre matchup, doesn't handle the most threatening mons at all but can beat the weaker ones.
Onix. Truly remarkable how much of this game seems built to screw over Onix at every turn. Especially because EQ would improve this matchup so much, and this is the gym you gain it from :(. Anyway onto the performance, beating Rhyhorn is unreliable, but possible as long as nothing misses. Screech + rock slide + iron tail guarentees a KO at my level and avoids a potion. Problem is you get 2hkod by EQ so you need a lot of luck to both hit and hope Rhyhorn uses the right move. You can also come in (after one of your mons dies) on Dugtrio who 3hkos you with EQ while you 2hko with iron tail. You can't beat anything else, Screech only makes iron tail a 3hko on Nidoqueen who 3hkos you, didn't even try Nidoking. Terrible showing, requires a lot of overleveling to do much in this fight.
Omastar. Start by Ohkoing both Rhyhorns before setting up rain, to avoid scary face messing with your speed. Use rain dance vs Dugtrio (does a bit under half to you) and then outspeed and Ohko the rest of Giovanni's team. Excellent matchup, again only one turn off from a perfect sweep.
Team Dragonair lvl 46, Arbok lvl 46, Beedrill lvl 46, Omastar lvl 42, Onix lvl 46
Arbok. Screech + hyper beam isn't all it's cracked up to be at this point in the game tbh, that or Arbok is bad. Pidgeot doesn't do much damage to you but it can ruin you with featherdance so you always get chipped for at least a third, and it feels like the dumb bird has a 75% crit chance. Screech+return doesn't KO so go for hyper beam and switch out since you can't do anything to Zam regardless. For the rest of his team, Exeggcute can't hurt you outside of a 2 turn solarbeam, but will usually paralyze you while you spam return (2-3hko). Gyarados does about half with hydro pump, so a 2hko unless you got unlucky vs either Pidgeot or the Egg earlier. Screechbeam won't Ohko it even without the intimidate drop sadly, so go for screech + 2 returns and hope it doesn't spam hydro (it usaully does). Charizard isn't happening, it outspeeds and 2hkos with flamethrower. Zam is even worse since it Ohkos and doesn't die to an unboosted hyper beam. Rough matchup, can technically beat 3/5 mons but requires quite a bit of luck that I never got, usually you beat one and chip another.
Dragonair. 2hko both Pidgeot and Gyarados with thunderbolt, Gyara is very close to an Ohko but never got it. Charizard is a 3hko with Surf, although if Gyarados used rain dance earlier then you 2hko it. Wing attack is a 2hko on you sadly so you need some luck with AI but you can technically beat it. Exeggcute is annoying due to status but it can't do much damage and dragon rage 3hkos. Zam is also a 3hko with dragon rage but it is more dangerous as it tends to use calm mind and a +1 psychic nearly Ohkos from full. Decent matchup, can 1v1 anything except occasionally Zard and usually takes out a few mons.
Beedrill. Brick break does nothing to Pidgeot and wing attack almost Ohkos you, so don't try this. Twineedle is an easy Ohko vs Exeggcute. For the other psychic, Alakazam outspeeds and Ohkos you with psychic, but it loves to use either future sight or calm mind so you can win with a twineedle Ohko. Giga drain is close enough to an Ohko on Rhyhorn that it KOs itself with take down recoil. Charizard outspeeds and Ohkos you with either stab move, so not great. Gyarados isn't as bad but Aerial ace still does very little and 2hkos you with hydro pump. Always beats 2 mons, sometimes beats another and loses hard to the last 3, so decent matchup.
Onix. Vs Pidgeot screech + rock slide means an Ohko or 2hko depending on if it uses featherdance. Exeggcute comes in next, and you usually won't beat it due to it paralyzing you turn one and hitting you with solarbeam turn 3, screech + rock slide only 3hkos. Zam usually doesn't work out as psychic Ohkos you and earthquake only 2hkos. Sometimes the rival switches to Gyarados if you use earthquake which is kinda neat, not exploitable however as -1 rock slide doesn't do much to it and hydro pump destroys you. Rhyhorn is a good matchup since it lacks a ground move and earthquake 2hkos it. Charizard (4x weak to rock) will beat you (rock type) because it outspeeds and 2hkos with flamethrower, and rock slide doesn't quite Ohko it. Not sure how much damage you do to Gyara without intimidate as it outsped me and used hydro pump every attempt. Bad matchup, beats the two generally easier to beat mons on his team and nothing else.
Omastar. Ice beam 2hkos Pidgeot and it can't touch you, so use one then set up rain so you have enough turns to outspeed Zam. Exeggcute is an Ohko with ice beam. Alakazam is a 2hko with surf (stronger than bite) and it almost always just uses calm mind or disable. Rhyhorn is an Ohko obviously. Gyarados 2hkos with hydro pump and ice beam is about a 4hko, but you occasionally just win anyway due to bad accuracy, dumb AI and ice beam freeze/crits. Charizard can't hurt you and surf does about 99% under rain, barely missing an Ohko but you still beat it. Very positive matchup, only one bad mon and even then you might luck out and get through it.
Arbok. Screech + hyper beam isn't all it's cracked up to be at this point in the game tbh, that or Arbok is bad. Pidgeot doesn't do much damage to you but it can ruin you with featherdance so you always get chipped for at least a third, and it feels like the dumb bird has a 75% crit chance. Screech+return doesn't KO so go for hyper beam and switch out since you can't do anything to Zam regardless. For the rest of his team, Exeggcute can't hurt you outside of a 2 turn solarbeam, but will usually paralyze you while you spam return (2-3hko). Gyarados does about half with hydro pump, so a 2hko unless you got unlucky vs either Pidgeot or the Egg earlier. Screechbeam won't Ohko it even without the intimidate drop sadly, so go for screech + 2 returns and hope it doesn't spam hydro (it usaully does). Charizard isn't happening, it outspeeds and 2hkos with flamethrower. Zam is even worse since it Ohkos and doesn't die to an unboosted hyper beam. Rough matchup, can technically beat 3/5 mons but requires quite a bit of luck that I never got, usually you beat one and chip another.
Dragonair. 2hko both Pidgeot and Gyarados with thunderbolt, Gyara is very close to an Ohko but never got it. Charizard is a 3hko with Surf, although if Gyarados used rain dance earlier then you 2hko it. Wing attack is a 2hko on you sadly so you need some luck with AI but you can technically beat it. Exeggcute is annoying due to status but it can't do much damage and dragon rage 3hkos. Zam is also a 3hko with dragon rage but it is more dangerous as it tends to use calm mind and a +1 psychic nearly Ohkos from full. Decent matchup, can 1v1 anything except occasionally Zard and usually takes out a few mons.
Beedrill. Brick break does nothing to Pidgeot and wing attack almost Ohkos you, so don't try this. Twineedle is an easy Ohko vs Exeggcute. For the other psychic, Alakazam outspeeds and Ohkos you with psychic, but it loves to use either future sight or calm mind so you can win with a twineedle Ohko. Giga drain is close enough to an Ohko on Rhyhorn that it KOs itself with take down recoil. Charizard outspeeds and Ohkos you with either stab move, so not great. Gyarados isn't as bad but Aerial ace still does very little and 2hkos you with hydro pump. Always beats 2 mons, sometimes beats another and loses hard to the last 3, so decent matchup.
Onix. Vs Pidgeot screech + rock slide means an Ohko or 2hko depending on if it uses featherdance. Exeggcute comes in next, and you usually won't beat it due to it paralyzing you turn one and hitting you with solarbeam turn 3, screech + rock slide only 3hkos. Zam usually doesn't work out as psychic Ohkos you and earthquake only 2hkos. Sometimes the rival switches to Gyarados if you use earthquake which is kinda neat, not exploitable however as -1 rock slide doesn't do much to it and hydro pump destroys you. Rhyhorn is a good matchup since it lacks a ground move and earthquake 2hkos it. Charizard (4x weak to rock) will beat you (rock type) because it outspeeds and 2hkos with flamethrower, and rock slide doesn't quite Ohko it. Not sure how much damage you do to Gyara without intimidate as it outsped me and used hydro pump every attempt. Bad matchup, beats the two generally easier to beat mons on his team and nothing else.
Omastar. Ice beam 2hkos Pidgeot and it can't touch you, so use one then set up rain so you have enough turns to outspeed Zam. Exeggcute is an Ohko with ice beam. Alakazam is a 2hko with surf (stronger than bite) and it almost always just uses calm mind or disable. Rhyhorn is an Ohko obviously. Gyarados 2hkos with hydro pump and ice beam is about a 4hko, but you occasionally just win anyway due to bad accuracy, dumb AI and ice beam freeze/crits. Charizard can't hurt you and surf does about 99% under rain, barely missing an Ohko but you still beat it. Very positive matchup, only one bad mon and even then you might luck out and get through it.
Team Omastar lvl 49, Dragonite lvl 55, Onix lvl 53, Beedrill lvl 50, Arbok lvl 50. (notes, I had to grind for a bit in victory road because I skipped quite a few trainers in the midgame and being 7-12 levels beneath the elite 4 wouldn't give great results for testing. Dragonite is a higher level because I wasn't fighting the elite four with a Dragonair, and the last time I played leafgreen I remembered being around low 50s so that's what I did for the rest of my team)
Omastar. Bad matchup vs all the water types bar Cloyster, as you can't hurt any of them for much damage and every surf 2hkos you. Jynx and Cloyster are actaully good matchups, Jynx only 4hkos you and rain boosted surf will 2hko it, so assuming you don't get sleep/attract haxed then you beat it. Cloyster is similar except it's only actual attack just guarentees it dies to surf. Rain boosted surfs also 2hko if it doesn't use dive. Not a good matchup sadly but can contribute a bit.
Dragonite. Thunderbolt is the only reason you can contribute here, without it you just lose to anything except maybe Cloyster. I had it, so vs Dewgong you can 2hko it usually without damage as it likes to use hail or safeguard. Slowbro is next, and it's ice beam will only 2hko you and it gets 2hkod back. Jynx is barely not an Ohko with Fly and it's ice punch Ohkos you even from full. For the rest of her team Lapras is a 3hko while it Ohkos you at full once again. Cloyster can't hurt you much and goes down to one thunderbolt. Strangely good matchup, reliably beats 2 mons, and a 3rd if it comes in later. Worth noting Jynx is close enough to a KO with fly that being -attack might have mattered.
Onix. Only one mon doesn't start by doing enough damage to Ohko you 3 times over turn 1, and that's because Cloyster does it turn 2 while taking a third from rock slide. Terrible matchup but what did you expect.
Arbok. Vs Dewgong you are 3hkod and Screechbeam won't Ohko, so screech and then 2hko with return. Cloyster doesn't do much damage outside of hail chip, but that's sufficent afetr Dewgong chip and all the protect spam. Even at -4 it doesn't go down to Hyper beam either. Only mon you beat semi reliably after Dewgong is Jynx, who 2hkos you but you also 2hko with return and outspeed, so either need Dewgong to not attack or dodge a lovely kiss. Bad matchup, can't even beat 2 mons 100% reliably.
Beedrill. Low stats are definitely showing at the elite 4, would be improved with grinding but so would everything so eh. Dewgong is a 3hko with brick break, use giga drain for one of the hits to avoid a potion, either stab 3hkos but usually you only take one hit. Slowbro is a 3hko with twineedle (stronger than double edge vs psychics) but it 2hkos with surf from full and it actually uses attacks sadly. Cloyster is kinda weird, you 4hko it with either brick break or giga drain, and it 4hkos with dive. It likes to spam protect in hail so it usually won't attack enough to KO you, even if Lorelei uses a potion. If you took a hit earlier you likely lose without healing however. Lapras 2hkos you and you only 3hko with brick break. Jynx does about half with ice punch, but twineedle isn't quite an ohko so you need to dodge a lovely kiss or use a full heal. Mediocre matchup, usually only takes out one mon and then has a chance to beat another.
Omastar. Bad matchup vs all the water types bar Cloyster, as you can't hurt any of them for much damage and every surf 2hkos you. Jynx and Cloyster are actaully good matchups, Jynx only 4hkos you and rain boosted surf will 2hko it, so assuming you don't get sleep/attract haxed then you beat it. Cloyster is similar except it's only actual attack just guarentees it dies to surf. Rain boosted surfs also 2hko if it doesn't use dive. Not a good matchup sadly but can contribute a bit.
Dragonite. Thunderbolt is the only reason you can contribute here, without it you just lose to anything except maybe Cloyster. I had it, so vs Dewgong you can 2hko it usually without damage as it likes to use hail or safeguard. Slowbro is next, and it's ice beam will only 2hko you and it gets 2hkod back. Jynx is barely not an Ohko with Fly and it's ice punch Ohkos you even from full. For the rest of her team Lapras is a 3hko while it Ohkos you at full once again. Cloyster can't hurt you much and goes down to one thunderbolt. Strangely good matchup, reliably beats 2 mons, and a 3rd if it comes in later. Worth noting Jynx is close enough to a KO with fly that being -attack might have mattered.
Onix. Only one mon doesn't start by doing enough damage to Ohko you 3 times over turn 1, and that's because Cloyster does it turn 2 while taking a third from rock slide. Terrible matchup but what did you expect.
Arbok. Vs Dewgong you are 3hkod and Screechbeam won't Ohko, so screech and then 2hko with return. Cloyster doesn't do much damage outside of hail chip, but that's sufficent afetr Dewgong chip and all the protect spam. Even at -4 it doesn't go down to Hyper beam either. Only mon you beat semi reliably after Dewgong is Jynx, who 2hkos you but you also 2hko with return and outspeed, so either need Dewgong to not attack or dodge a lovely kiss. Bad matchup, can't even beat 2 mons 100% reliably.
Beedrill. Low stats are definitely showing at the elite 4, would be improved with grinding but so would everything so eh. Dewgong is a 3hko with brick break, use giga drain for one of the hits to avoid a potion, either stab 3hkos but usually you only take one hit. Slowbro is a 3hko with twineedle (stronger than double edge vs psychics) but it 2hkos with surf from full and it actually uses attacks sadly. Cloyster is kinda weird, you 4hko it with either brick break or giga drain, and it 4hkos with dive. It likes to spam protect in hail so it usually won't attack enough to KO you, even if Lorelei uses a potion. If you took a hit earlier you likely lose without healing however. Lapras 2hkos you and you only 3hko with brick break. Jynx does about half with ice punch, but twineedle isn't quite an ohko so you need to dodge a lovely kiss or use a full heal. Mediocre matchup, usually only takes out one mon and then has a chance to beat another.
Team Omastar lvl 49, Dragonite lvl 55, Onix lvl 53, Beedrill lvl 50, Arbok lvl 50
Omastar. Another shaky elite 4 matchup sadly. Set up rain vs Onix 1 while earthquake does about a third. Destroy both Onixes (why he sends out Onix 2 to a certain death is beyond me) and then do about 75% to Hitmonchan before going down to sky uppercut. Tried again without rain, Onix 2 and Hitmonchan actually outsped so was still chipped enough to die vs Hitmonchan. Another bad matchup, although guarenteeing kills on the Onix is at least something even if not super valuable because Onix sucks.
Dragonite. Ohko both Onixes with surf, and Ohko both Hitmons with fly. Machamp is the only "threat" as it doesn't get Ohkoed, but if you spam dragon claw you win with a 3hko. Excellent matchup, not much to say otherwise.
Onix. Can only beat one of Bruno's Onix with an earthquake 2hko, as the second one outspeeds and 2hkos you before you 3hko back. Tested vs the fighters, Hitmonchan is the weakest and it outspeeds and 2hkos before you can 3hko it. Really bad matchup, high physical defense doesn't help enough with the meager HP and attack.
Arbok. My set has 2 normal moves, screech and glare, so I can't touch the Onix, but giga drain would do something if you had it. For the rest, both hitmons are easy Ohkos with hyper beam after 1 screech, Chan only does about a 5hko with -1 rock tomb and -1 mega kick from Lee does slightly more. Machamp is messy, but you usually won't beat it after the hitmons unless you heal. I found the best way was using screech twice and then spamming return, which is a 2-5hko depending on bulk ups and potions used, and only going for hyper beam if Machamp was low enough that it wouldn't heal but return would put it in potion range. Overall decent matchup, can beat every fighter with 1 potion used but not very consistent vs Machamp (maybe 65% odds to win).
Beedrill. Rough, fighting resist doesn't help much when Bruno's coverage of rock and normal moves is sufficent to pound you. You beat both Onixes with a giga drain 2hko, but the fighters are a different story, you 2hko the hitmons with double edge, but Hitmonlee will usually reduce your speed with one rock tomb then finish you off. Machamp and Hitmonlee just straight up Ohko you. Bad matchup, only beats Onixes and Bruno doesn't even try to sacrifice Onix #2, he just sends in Chan after 1 Onix goes down.
Omastar. Another shaky elite 4 matchup sadly. Set up rain vs Onix 1 while earthquake does about a third. Destroy both Onixes (why he sends out Onix 2 to a certain death is beyond me) and then do about 75% to Hitmonchan before going down to sky uppercut. Tried again without rain, Onix 2 and Hitmonchan actually outsped so was still chipped enough to die vs Hitmonchan. Another bad matchup, although guarenteeing kills on the Onix is at least something even if not super valuable because Onix sucks.
Dragonite. Ohko both Onixes with surf, and Ohko both Hitmons with fly. Machamp is the only "threat" as it doesn't get Ohkoed, but if you spam dragon claw you win with a 3hko. Excellent matchup, not much to say otherwise.
Onix. Can only beat one of Bruno's Onix with an earthquake 2hko, as the second one outspeeds and 2hkos you before you 3hko back. Tested vs the fighters, Hitmonchan is the weakest and it outspeeds and 2hkos before you can 3hko it. Really bad matchup, high physical defense doesn't help enough with the meager HP and attack.
Arbok. My set has 2 normal moves, screech and glare, so I can't touch the Onix, but giga drain would do something if you had it. For the rest, both hitmons are easy Ohkos with hyper beam after 1 screech, Chan only does about a 5hko with -1 rock tomb and -1 mega kick from Lee does slightly more. Machamp is messy, but you usually won't beat it after the hitmons unless you heal. I found the best way was using screech twice and then spamming return, which is a 2-5hko depending on bulk ups and potions used, and only going for hyper beam if Machamp was low enough that it wouldn't heal but return would put it in potion range. Overall decent matchup, can beat every fighter with 1 potion used but not very consistent vs Machamp (maybe 65% odds to win).
Beedrill. Rough, fighting resist doesn't help much when Bruno's coverage of rock and normal moves is sufficent to pound you. You beat both Onixes with a giga drain 2hko, but the fighters are a different story, you 2hko the hitmons with double edge, but Hitmonlee will usually reduce your speed with one rock tomb then finish you off. Machamp and Hitmonlee just straight up Ohko you. Bad matchup, only beats Onixes and Bruno doesn't even try to sacrifice Onix #2, he just sends in Chan after 1 Onix goes down.
Team Omastar lvl 49, Dragonite lvl 55, Onix lvl 53, Beedrill lvl 51, Arbok lvl 51
Omastar. Don't set up rain vs Gengar 1 since it's a 2hko either way and toxic sucks. use surf once on Golbat then use rain dance, proceed to KO it and Ohko the Haunter that comes in. Vs Gengar 2 you're low enough (about half) that Gengar sometimes just attacks instead of using hypnosis despite you not actually being in KO range of shadow ball. Even if it does use hypnosis it can miss and you might wake up fast enough that it doesn't matter. Rain runs out vs Arbok and does about 30 damage per hit with iron tail, sometimes you have enough HP to tank it while setting up rain and 2hkoing with surf. Good matchup, sadly this is Agatha so sometimes you do lose due to hitting yourself in confusion 4 times in a row, other than that it's a sweep.
Dragonite. Outspeed Gengar 1 and 2hko with dragon claw, it just spams double team even if you miss. Golbat is nearly an Ohko with thunderbolt, but not quite. The only threatening thing it can do is land a confuse ray or poison you but usually it just uses a weak attack. Arbok is also a 2hko with dragon claw, if it lands screech you won't beat the 2nd Gengar without switching but otherwise it doesn't do much. Gengar 2 is a real luckfest, it outspeeds and dragon claw 2hkos but with hypnosis, nightmare and 2 strong attacks it can get ugly fast. Sometimes it misses two hypnosis and does nothing, sometimes you just get 2hkoed due to chip damage from the earlier mons. With a full restore or even held chesto berry you generally always beat it, without it you can but it's not very consistent. Haunter is last for some reason and unless it uses and lands a hypnosis you 2hko it with dragon claw. Solid matchup, occasionally sweeps without an item and basically always does with one.
Onix. Technically you 2hko Gengar 1 after a screech, but in practice it spams double team, confuse ray and toxic. You might beat it if it doesn't use toxic, but you'll usually be at very low health so it's not great. You can 2hko Golbat with rock slide before bite 4hkos, but it outspeeds so you take a lot of chip and probably confusion. Arbok is also possible at full HP, since earthquake 2hkos it and screech + iron tail 'only' does about 90/113 HP. Funnilly enough Gengar 2 is a better matchup than the first as it can only really hurt you with nightmare, and it might miss hypnosis plus you can wake up early. Still a bad matchup because the best way to take it down is screech twice and rock slide twice, needs some luck but possible. Haunter is similar, but only needs one screech. Overall pretty bad matchup, becuase if it's been chipped from beating one mon it then doesn't have enough HP for the next. At least can 1v1 anything with a bit of luck.
Arbok. My set only has normal moves so not gonna do great vs 3 ghost types. Probably should've kept bite considering I barely used glare and haven't used stockpile once yet. Only beats Golbat if it loses 0 or 1 turns to either flinching or confusion, because the best way to KO it is 2 screeches + hyper beam. You can't chip with return either because if you ever use a normal move and don't Ohko then Agatha switches to a ghost type. You can beat Arbok the same way but you'll need to heal if you also fought Golbat. Bad matchup, can't touch the biggest threats at all.
Beedrill. Can't touch the ghosts unless you still have aerial ace, but even with that I doubt it does much to them. For Golbat you nearly get Ohkoed by a single air cutter and double edge barely does a third in return. With Arbok you 4hko with initmidate, 3hko without. Iron tail 2hkos you but you can win since both it and screech have bad accuracy. Very bad matchup, needs luck to even beat one mon.
Omastar. Don't set up rain vs Gengar 1 since it's a 2hko either way and toxic sucks. use surf once on Golbat then use rain dance, proceed to KO it and Ohko the Haunter that comes in. Vs Gengar 2 you're low enough (about half) that Gengar sometimes just attacks instead of using hypnosis despite you not actually being in KO range of shadow ball. Even if it does use hypnosis it can miss and you might wake up fast enough that it doesn't matter. Rain runs out vs Arbok and does about 30 damage per hit with iron tail, sometimes you have enough HP to tank it while setting up rain and 2hkoing with surf. Good matchup, sadly this is Agatha so sometimes you do lose due to hitting yourself in confusion 4 times in a row, other than that it's a sweep.
Dragonite. Outspeed Gengar 1 and 2hko with dragon claw, it just spams double team even if you miss. Golbat is nearly an Ohko with thunderbolt, but not quite. The only threatening thing it can do is land a confuse ray or poison you but usually it just uses a weak attack. Arbok is also a 2hko with dragon claw, if it lands screech you won't beat the 2nd Gengar without switching but otherwise it doesn't do much. Gengar 2 is a real luckfest, it outspeeds and dragon claw 2hkos but with hypnosis, nightmare and 2 strong attacks it can get ugly fast. Sometimes it misses two hypnosis and does nothing, sometimes you just get 2hkoed due to chip damage from the earlier mons. With a full restore or even held chesto berry you generally always beat it, without it you can but it's not very consistent. Haunter is last for some reason and unless it uses and lands a hypnosis you 2hko it with dragon claw. Solid matchup, occasionally sweeps without an item and basically always does with one.
Onix. Technically you 2hko Gengar 1 after a screech, but in practice it spams double team, confuse ray and toxic. You might beat it if it doesn't use toxic, but you'll usually be at very low health so it's not great. You can 2hko Golbat with rock slide before bite 4hkos, but it outspeeds so you take a lot of chip and probably confusion. Arbok is also possible at full HP, since earthquake 2hkos it and screech + iron tail 'only' does about 90/113 HP. Funnilly enough Gengar 2 is a better matchup than the first as it can only really hurt you with nightmare, and it might miss hypnosis plus you can wake up early. Still a bad matchup because the best way to take it down is screech twice and rock slide twice, needs some luck but possible. Haunter is similar, but only needs one screech. Overall pretty bad matchup, becuase if it's been chipped from beating one mon it then doesn't have enough HP for the next. At least can 1v1 anything with a bit of luck.
Arbok. My set only has normal moves so not gonna do great vs 3 ghost types. Probably should've kept bite considering I barely used glare and haven't used stockpile once yet. Only beats Golbat if it loses 0 or 1 turns to either flinching or confusion, because the best way to KO it is 2 screeches + hyper beam. You can't chip with return either because if you ever use a normal move and don't Ohko then Agatha switches to a ghost type. You can beat Arbok the same way but you'll need to heal if you also fought Golbat. Bad matchup, can't touch the biggest threats at all.
Beedrill. Can't touch the ghosts unless you still have aerial ace, but even with that I doubt it does much to them. For Golbat you nearly get Ohkoed by a single air cutter and double edge barely does a third in return. With Arbok you 4hko with initmidate, 3hko without. Iron tail 2hkos you but you can win since both it and screech have bad accuracy. Very bad matchup, needs luck to even beat one mon.
Team Omastar lvl 50, Dragonite lvl 55 (56 after Gyarados), Onix lvl 53, Beedrill lvl 51, Arbok lvl 51
Omastar. Don't even try vs Gyarados, ice beam is like a 6hko and it wins the war of attrition. Set up rain vs Dragonair, ice beam and blizzard are both 2hkos sadly. Next Dragonair comes in and usually beats you with twave or outrage unless you heal. Dragonite is a 2hko even with blizzard, you won't beat it if he uses outrage turn 1 since it 2hkos so items can't save you. Aerodactyl is thankfully free since ancient power doesn't do much and you outspeed and Ohko under rain. Dissapointing matchup since I expected clean Ohkos on the dragons, needs a item but can beat 3/5 which still isn't bad by any means.
Dragonite. Time to shine. Ohko Gyarados with thunderbolt, Ohko both Dragonairs with Dragon claw. You outspeed Lance's Dragonite since it doesn't have EVs and you do. Dragon claw has a chance to 2hko despite sitrus, more likely you take one hit from outrage (he nearly always used safeguard turn 1) but live and beat it. Beats Aerodactyl with no support if you 2hkoed Dragonite as ancient power only 3hkos you. If you got chipped by ourtrage then you need two items to heal up and 2hko it with surf. Incredibly good matchup, either sweeps with no difficulty or with a few items for the last mon.
Onix. Gyarados isn't good since it 3hkos with bite and you only 2hko after a screech. Dragonairs are similar since they use dragon rage + outrage and always 2hko you, earthquake 3hkos in return. Dragonite Ohkos you so don't even bother. You beat Aerodactyl at least since it can't hurt you and is weak to rock slide. Bad matchup, only beats one mon.
Arbok. Doesn't beat Gyara unless you switch, if you do 2 screeches + hyper beam Ohkos but you end at like 60 hp and can't do anything else. Can beat both Dragonairs by using screech and 2 returns on one, and screech hyper beam on the other. Doesn't beat Dragonite even if it uses safeguard and you're at full health, since outrage 2hkos and hyper beam won't Ohko even at -4 defense. Same goes for Aerodactyl. Bad performance, at least can support a bit by beating Dragonairs.
Beedrill. Gyarados Ohkos you with hyper beam, Dragonair 1 and 2 Ohko you with hyper beam after double edge recoil, Dragonite Ohkos you with hyper beam, Aerodactyl Ohkos you with ancientpower. Do I need to tell you my thoughts on this performance?
Omastar. Don't even try vs Gyarados, ice beam is like a 6hko and it wins the war of attrition. Set up rain vs Dragonair, ice beam and blizzard are both 2hkos sadly. Next Dragonair comes in and usually beats you with twave or outrage unless you heal. Dragonite is a 2hko even with blizzard, you won't beat it if he uses outrage turn 1 since it 2hkos so items can't save you. Aerodactyl is thankfully free since ancient power doesn't do much and you outspeed and Ohko under rain. Dissapointing matchup since I expected clean Ohkos on the dragons, needs a item but can beat 3/5 which still isn't bad by any means.
Dragonite. Time to shine. Ohko Gyarados with thunderbolt, Ohko both Dragonairs with Dragon claw. You outspeed Lance's Dragonite since it doesn't have EVs and you do. Dragon claw has a chance to 2hko despite sitrus, more likely you take one hit from outrage (he nearly always used safeguard turn 1) but live and beat it. Beats Aerodactyl with no support if you 2hkoed Dragonite as ancient power only 3hkos you. If you got chipped by ourtrage then you need two items to heal up and 2hko it with surf. Incredibly good matchup, either sweeps with no difficulty or with a few items for the last mon.
Onix. Gyarados isn't good since it 3hkos with bite and you only 2hko after a screech. Dragonairs are similar since they use dragon rage + outrage and always 2hko you, earthquake 3hkos in return. Dragonite Ohkos you so don't even bother. You beat Aerodactyl at least since it can't hurt you and is weak to rock slide. Bad matchup, only beats one mon.
Arbok. Doesn't beat Gyara unless you switch, if you do 2 screeches + hyper beam Ohkos but you end at like 60 hp and can't do anything else. Can beat both Dragonairs by using screech and 2 returns on one, and screech hyper beam on the other. Doesn't beat Dragonite even if it uses safeguard and you're at full health, since outrage 2hkos and hyper beam won't Ohko even at -4 defense. Same goes for Aerodactyl. Bad performance, at least can support a bit by beating Dragonairs.
Beedrill. Gyarados Ohkos you with hyper beam, Dragonair 1 and 2 Ohko you with hyper beam after double edge recoil, Dragonite Ohkos you with hyper beam, Aerodactyl Ohkos you with ancientpower. Do I need to tell you my thoughts on this performance?
Team Omastar lvl 51, Dragonite lvl 56, Onix lvl 53, Beedrill lvl 51, Arbok lvl 51
Omastar. 2hko Pidgeot with ice beam, it roughly 7hkos and usually just sand attacks. Rhydon you outspeed and obviously Ohko. Even blizzard won't Ohko Exeggutor and it always uses giga drain to Ohko you, so avoid it. Gyarados 2hkos with hydro pump and ice beam does nothing to it so also avoid. Alakazam is doable if you only took one hit from Pidgeot since psychic does ~120/146 hp, you also need it to waste a turn going for reflect or future sight, if so you can set up rain and 2hko it. You may need to heal for Charizard if you took a psychic, but under rain fire blast is like a 6hko and you 2hko with surf so it's a win. Good matchup, only luck needed is for Zam but otherwise consistently beats 4/6 mons on his team.
Dragonite. Thunderbolt 2hkos Pidgeot who usually just goes for a weak aerial ace. Gyarados is barely not an Ohko but thrash or dragon rage don't do much damage and you outspeed. Rhydon goes down to one surf, don't ask me why the second strongest trainer in Kanto sends out a Rhydon for something with surf. Alakazam is a 2hko with fly if it uses reflect, 3hko if it does, both regardless of intimidate. Psychic is a 2hko, you can win despite being outsped since it spams future sight a lot instead of psychic, however it's more common to lose if you don't heal. In order to sweep you'll have to heal against Exeggutor, but even if you don't then beating 4/6 mons is quite good. Exeggutor is a 2hko without intimidate, 3hko with, sleep powder is annoying but there is no reason to not use full heals at this point in the game and egg bomb is like a 6hko. Charizard 4hkos with fire blast and outspeeds, you 3hko with 2 dragon claws and thunderbolt (avoids healing), so you need to either heal or dodge a fire blast. Very good matchup with a sweep, but needing items and some luck for Zam means it isn't perfect.
Onix. I lost to Pidgeot one time because I missed so much and didn't ohko it even at -6 defense due to featherdance being used once, so a flying type that dealt ~10/116 hp damage beat my rock type. I hate this thing. Usually you do beat Pidgeot, use screech twice if it goes for featherdance and once otherwise, 2hko with rock slide, just hope sand attack doesn't ruin you. Rhydon Ohkos you with earthquake and you maybe 3hko, so don't. Charizard outspeeds and 2hkos you, Onix can beat it if Charizard misses fire blast and it hits 2 rock slides, but still not a good showing. Everything else Ohkos and outspeeds so, terrible matchup, most of the time beats Pidgeot, might beat Charizard with quite a bit of luck.
Arbok. Loses to Pidgeot due to being outsped and 4hkod, screeching 2 times and hyper beam doesn't ohko. The only mon you reliably beat without potions is Exeggutor since intimidated egg bombs are a 4hko giving you enough time to screech 2 times and 2hko with return. Gyarados and Pidgeot are both doable with potion spam if you really need to take them down. The rest do too much damage or resist normal so won't work without insane luck. Bad matchup, low base attack really hinders screechbeam this late in the game.
Beedrill. Pidgeot, Gyarados, Rhydon, (you outspeed but it's a 4hko) Alakazam and Charizard all outspeed and Ohko with their stabs, so to do anything against any of them I would've had to grind levels above the rest of my team. You outspeed Exeggutor but twineedle is garbage and doesn't Ohko so you need to dodge sleep powder or use an item. Really bad performance, only beats one mon and would require lots of grinding to accomplish much else.
Omastar. 2hko Pidgeot with ice beam, it roughly 7hkos and usually just sand attacks. Rhydon you outspeed and obviously Ohko. Even blizzard won't Ohko Exeggutor and it always uses giga drain to Ohko you, so avoid it. Gyarados 2hkos with hydro pump and ice beam does nothing to it so also avoid. Alakazam is doable if you only took one hit from Pidgeot since psychic does ~120/146 hp, you also need it to waste a turn going for reflect or future sight, if so you can set up rain and 2hko it. You may need to heal for Charizard if you took a psychic, but under rain fire blast is like a 6hko and you 2hko with surf so it's a win. Good matchup, only luck needed is for Zam but otherwise consistently beats 4/6 mons on his team.
Dragonite. Thunderbolt 2hkos Pidgeot who usually just goes for a weak aerial ace. Gyarados is barely not an Ohko but thrash or dragon rage don't do much damage and you outspeed. Rhydon goes down to one surf, don't ask me why the second strongest trainer in Kanto sends out a Rhydon for something with surf. Alakazam is a 2hko with fly if it uses reflect, 3hko if it does, both regardless of intimidate. Psychic is a 2hko, you can win despite being outsped since it spams future sight a lot instead of psychic, however it's more common to lose if you don't heal. In order to sweep you'll have to heal against Exeggutor, but even if you don't then beating 4/6 mons is quite good. Exeggutor is a 2hko without intimidate, 3hko with, sleep powder is annoying but there is no reason to not use full heals at this point in the game and egg bomb is like a 6hko. Charizard 4hkos with fire blast and outspeeds, you 3hko with 2 dragon claws and thunderbolt (avoids healing), so you need to either heal or dodge a fire blast. Very good matchup with a sweep, but needing items and some luck for Zam means it isn't perfect.
Onix. I lost to Pidgeot one time because I missed so much and didn't ohko it even at -6 defense due to featherdance being used once, so a flying type that dealt ~10/116 hp damage beat my rock type. I hate this thing. Usually you do beat Pidgeot, use screech twice if it goes for featherdance and once otherwise, 2hko with rock slide, just hope sand attack doesn't ruin you. Rhydon Ohkos you with earthquake and you maybe 3hko, so don't. Charizard outspeeds and 2hkos you, Onix can beat it if Charizard misses fire blast and it hits 2 rock slides, but still not a good showing. Everything else Ohkos and outspeeds so, terrible matchup, most of the time beats Pidgeot, might beat Charizard with quite a bit of luck.
Arbok. Loses to Pidgeot due to being outsped and 4hkod, screeching 2 times and hyper beam doesn't ohko. The only mon you reliably beat without potions is Exeggutor since intimidated egg bombs are a 4hko giving you enough time to screech 2 times and 2hko with return. Gyarados and Pidgeot are both doable with potion spam if you really need to take them down. The rest do too much damage or resist normal so won't work without insane luck. Bad matchup, low base attack really hinders screechbeam this late in the game.
Beedrill. Pidgeot, Gyarados, Rhydon, (you outspeed but it's a 4hko) Alakazam and Charizard all outspeed and Ohko with their stabs, so to do anything against any of them I would've had to grind levels above the rest of my team. You outspeed Exeggutor but twineedle is garbage and doesn't Ohko so you need to dodge sleep powder or use an item. Really bad performance, only beats one mon and would require lots of grinding to accomplish much else.
Now for my nominations,
for D tier. A few other people supported this earlier and it makes sense to me as well. Solid early game performance that is quite helpful until Erika, where it starts getting worse and worse until it becomes basically deadweight in the Elite 4. It should have pin missile over twineedle just so it has at least a chance to Ohko the late game psychics. Definitely a bad mon due to low stats, no good stab and needing a few TMs, but clearly above the likes of Porygon, Ditto and Chansey. for D tier. Similar to beedrill but it trades beating early game psychics for a screech hyper beam combo to stay relevant for a bit longer. This combo is great on paper but either I was way underleveled or it falls off late game due to poor base attack and everything getting bulkier. Also has abysmal performances vs rock types unless it has the high demand earthquake TM and vs ghost types no matter what. It's main two moves having imperfect accuracy also hurts reliability, but it does have a solid enough early game and mediocre enough mid game to avoid the lowest tier IMO. for staying in E tier. I said it in one of the logs, but it truly is impressive how much this game hates Onix. Special attacks everywhere due to no special split, garbage stabs without a tutor and a lategame TM, almost every poison type floating/flying to avoid it's best stab and truly atrocious stats to top it all off. Can barely contribute in positive matchups outside of ones shortly after you pick it up that only use physical attacks, and utterly fails at being a rock type due to horrible power meaning it won't even Ohko a Charizard. Literally no 100% accurate moves until earthquake either, meaning in almost every fight you have to pray to rngesus that everything hits. About the only thing Onix has going for it is availibility, but that just means it sucks exp for a longer amount of time. for C tier. Obviously there's two big issues with Dragonite's line, and that's the cost of getting it early and the extremely late evolution, but neither of these are necessarily deal breakers. If you do want to catch one without paying you can use the super rod in the safari zone and only miss two major fights, Erika and Giovanni 1. It will need a grind however so this isn't perfect, but may be preferable to spending the extra cash. As for the level 55 evolution, I found Dragonair to be fairly good in the mid game, never truly being useless and contributing in every major fight thanks to surf and dragon rage access. Dragonite is of course fantastic, sweeping 4/5 members of the elite 4, and needing a game corner TM for this isn't such a big deal since you have enough money by this point and it's unnecessary earlier. Never had a bad time using this mon , would maybe say B tier if it wasn't for the issues with obtaining one. for D tier, argument for C. To be frank this thing destroys everything between Koga and Lorelei, it struggles too much vs some of the elite 4 and needs a bit too much support there for C tier in my eyes, but I could absolutely see it in reach. Grinding it up is also no issue, similar to how Texas used Aerodactyl I just trained it in Silph Co vs the hordes of rocket grunts and it was pretty much ready to go after that. I was also Impish, may have affected the elite 4 enough to matter but I'm not sure how much a regular natured one would have performed better. Seeing as it was never deadweight even in it's worst performances and absolutely trashes mid game I have a very hard time seeing Omanyte in E tier now. If anyone disagrees with this nom or one of the other then please speak up, I encourage discussion on them!Also a quick question, what's a good level for the elite 4? My whole team was in the low 50s bar Dragonite since that's what I remembered from the last time I beat this game, but everything that wasn't a dragon struggled a fair bit. Is this just due to only using low tier mons or should I have taken everyone to say, level 55?
Screech Beam sounds like a cool attack idea, should the Sound-type ever come into being. But I digress.
Colteor Low 50s sounds fine, actually. IMO the rule of thumb should be to maintain closeness to the E4 in terms of levels, and low 50s does that. If you were in your L40s, that's still manageable but not efficient...going off my own experience, of course. Nice to see you had such a good time using those mons, I need to give Beedrill and Arbok at least a try, and Dragonite too. Also good to know Omanyte trained easily!
Colteor Low 50s sounds fine, actually. IMO the rule of thumb should be to maintain closeness to the E4 in terms of levels, and low 50s does that. If you were in your L40s, that's still manageable but not efficient...going off my own experience, of course. Nice to see you had such a good time using those mons, I need to give Beedrill and Arbok at least a try, and Dragonite too. Also good to know Omanyte trained easily!
This is brilliant, thank you! It's amazing to see someone make it through the game with Pokémon that are, well, subpar to say the least; and some of these efforts are pretty impressive. I'm seriously stunned to see Arbok and Beedrill do anything to Sabrina!Finished! This run was fun, any excuse to replay the first game I ever played is good to me, will definitely do another one soon since I'll have more free time than I did in January. Here's the logs!
Team Arbok lvl 40, Beedrill lvl 39, Dragonair lvl 39, Onix lvl 40, Omanyte lvl 32
Arbok. Screech + Hyper beam is better than I thought. Screech beam Ohkos everything unless you get lowered attack from Pidgeot or Gyarados, so the only mons you don't always beat 1v1 are Exeggcute (para and confusion mean you might get 3hkod before getting hyper beam off.) and Charizard who 2hkos with flamethrower, but usually does something useless like scary face turn 1. In terms of sweeping, if you don't switch you usually die facing gyarados due to the recharge turns giving the psychics time to chip you, but might at least smack gyara with a hyper beam before going down. If you do switch (to reset charge turns, I just sacked an hm slave and let something else beat Exeggcute.) then you beat Pidgeot and Gyarados with screechbeam, and Alakazam with just hyper beam, still usually gets chipped enough to not be able to take a flamethrower(~70/100). Better performance than I expected, Screech + hyper beam seems like a good niche.
Onix. Pidgeot is a good enough matchup, 2 rock slides is a KO, 3 if it uses featherdance. After Pidgeot Onix will be able to (accuracy not withstanding) 1v1 any other mon the rival has except Exeggcute, but only one of them. It beats Alakazam because haha future sight, although if it actually takes that future sight then it won't have the HP to take on either Charizard or Gyarados. Speaking of Gyarados, it's a 2hko without intimidate, with intimidate you need screech + one rock slide KOs. It's an ok matchup, despite the rival having 3 rock weak mons you only realistically beat 2 per attempt, bad special bulk really stings.
Beedrill. Pidgeot is an awful MU, 3hkoing at best with brick break while the bird 2hkos (~80/106!) with wing attack. Both psychics are extremly good however, easy ohkos with twinneedle and outspeeds both. Charizard obviously wrecks you with a flamethrower Ohko, and even a crit aerial ace doesn't kill it. Gyarados isn't as bad as you might think, it's only threatening move is dragon rage (bite is ~13 damage) and aerial ace is a 4hko, so you basically just need anything except 2 or more dragon rages and you win. Intimidated aerial ace becomes a 6hko which is just a bit too luck dependent, but technically possible. Positive matchup vs 3 mons, hilariously bad vs the other two.
Dragonair. 2hko vs Pidgeot with thunderbolt. Ohko and outspeed Gyarados who is sent out next for some reason. Charizard is a 2hko with surf, although I have modest and a mystic water boost, 3hko without either of those I suspect. Next up is the eggs, confusion only does ~20 damage but that's enough to 2hko you before dragon rage can 3hko back due to all the chip. It likes to spam stun spore until it connects however, so with some luck (or a potion) you can beat it. If you switch in on Exeggcute then you obviously win, and even paralyzed vs Zam it's a joke due to only knowing future sight for damage, dragon rage 3hko. Very good matchup, only thing limiting a sweep is HP basically. Worth noting a game corner TM was essential in this fight and I just barely had the money for all of ice beam, mystic water(for Omastar) and thunderbolt(for Dragonair).
Omanyte. level 32 is what I was at after some experience from silph co grunts, also yes, a level 32 Omanyte does good enough to note in this fight. VS Pidgeot ice beam is a 3hko, rain+mystic water boosted surfs 2hkos, but same amount of turns so eh. For Exeggcute, 2hkos with ice beam so you only need to dodge one status move. Alakazam is either a 3hko with bite or 2hko with rain boosted surf. You can't touch Gyarados sadly, ice beam is a 5hko. Even with rain you won't outspeed Charizard, but it can't hurt you so just rain dance surf and win. Solid performance, especially considering it's 8 levels beneath the rest of my team.
Team Arbok lvl 40, Beedrill lvl 39, Dragonair lvl 39, Onix lvl 40, Omanyte lvl 34 (35 after Nidoqueen)
Omanyte. Rain dance, then surf 2hkos Nidorino and Nidoqueen. Rain stops vs Rhyhorn but it's an ohko with surf regardless. Set up rain again vs Kanga, then 2hko with surf. Excellent matchup, giovanni bad.
Arbok. Nidorino goes down to 2 returns and can't hurt you. 1 Screech + hyper beam barely misses an Ohko vs Kangaskhan, so Screech + 2 returns is your best bet. Rhyhorn is winnable but will usually do above half to you while you try to screech and chip with return, so it's not advised due to it's normal resistance making things complicated. Nidoqueen also can't hurt you much, and also just barely live hyper beam after a screech. 2 Returns after screech gets the job done. Very good matchup, only problem mon is one that folds to any special attack so just needs that bit of support and handles the rest.
Beedrill. Aerial ace is still my best move for poison types, which stings (haha get it) because it means even weak Nidorino is a 3hko that chips a fair bit with fury attack. Rhyhorn thankfully lets you get some health back with giga drain, and I never saw it use rock blast even though I only 2hkod it. Kanga is Barely a 3hko with brick break (it has like 1 hp after two) and is only a threat if it mega punches, which is not super common for some reason. Nidoqueen is perhaps the peak of gen 3 AI in this fight. Body slam is a 3hko even if you're at full, and usually a 2hko by the time you get here. Despite that, most of the time it just wastes it's turns with tail whip and double kick or a weak poison sting. So even though aerial ace is like a 6hko Beedrill often comes out on top. Tested this matchup a few times to make sure it wasn't a fluke, and it wasn't, gen 3 AI is just that bad. Bad matchup on paper but in practice it just works.
Onix. Finally a matchup where Onix can put in some work! Sky high defense mean you wall everything and hit back hard with- oh nevermind Giovanni got a 30% poison chance so now you lose or waste time and use an antidote. Jokes aside Onix does fairly well here if it avoids poison. Screech + 1 dig KOs Nidorino, 2 screeches for the Ohko on Nidoqueen who seems to not like spamming double kick. Kanga struggles to do damage unless you've been tail whipped a bunch, so just screech and 3hko with rock slide. Rhyhorn is laughable, it's lucky to do more than 10 damage before you screech and dig it to death. Overall a pretty solid matchup, sucks that poison exists but good outside of that.
Dragonair. Surf spam beats this fight, it 3hkos both Nidos easily. Surf is a 4hko on Kangaskhan, but you should make it despite mega punch being strong, thanks to AI just spamming rage and tail whip. Dragon rage KOs all of those mons in the same amount of turns but surf can crit at least so use it instead. Rhyhorn is obviously an Ohko with surf. Not much to say, positive matchup as long as you don't get unlucky with the AI actually having a brain.
Team Arbok lvl 40, Beedrill lvl 39, Dragonair lvl 39, Onix lvl 40, Omastar lvl 40
Omastar. Even after fighting all the trainers in Sabrinas gym Omanyte was level 39, so I just used a rare candy on it. Wanted to note that incase it's a strong negative, but it seems like a pretty good use of them to me. Onto the fight, set up rain vs Kadabra, surf Ohkos even through calm mind. Very good chance to Ohko Mr. Mime, I was -sp atk so likely guarenteed without that. Ohko Venomoth with surf. Rain runs out after one surf vs Zam and you barely miss an Ohko, but if does anything except use psychic twice or calm mind followed by psychic then you have time to set it up again and win. If this is really a problem to you, you can waste turns with bite vs venomoth and then set up rain and KO it, and have several turns left to KO Alakazam. Incredibly good matchup, easily sweeps with only one minor roadblock and outspeeds everything on Sabrina's team under rain.
Arbok. Does better than you might think, outspeeds and Ohkos Kadabra with return. Mr. Mime is a 2hko with return, so you can either bank on it not attacking (most of the time it uses barrier or calm mind, occasionaly it does go for psybeam though.) or use hyper beam and switch. Alakazam outspeeds and Ohkos you with psychic, which it does use more than half the time. If it goes for future sight instead, then you can Ohko it with hyper beam. Venomoth's psybeam and Zam's future sight both do about a third, but 2 returns KO the moth so a just a bit more luck is needed. Good matchup, but inconsitent due to relying on bad AI to sweep.
Beedrill. Similar to Arbok, it outspeeds and Ohkos Kadabra. Twineedle lets you Ohko Mr. Mime as well. Alakazam is another round of please don't use psychic, sadly it does about 70% of the time. If Sabrina is bad and uses future sight then you can Ohko zam with twineedle and 2hko Venomoth with aerial ace before future sight hits you. Good matchup, would be far improved if it could just take a Zam psychic but sadly it can't.
Onix. Oh how I wish it could become a Steelix before the postgame. Kadabra is usually an Ohko (although I did lose once due to missing rock slide while it ohkod with +1 psybeam lol) but it's annoying if it sets up reflect. Mr. Mime is very bad, any of barrier, calm mind or psybeam are bad since +1 psybeam ohkos you, and barrier makes your 2hko a 3hko, and screech won't work due to soundproof. If you somehow make it past Mr. Mime, Venomoth isn't even a great matchup since it outspeeds and rock slide is a 2hko. Just forget about fighting Zam. Bad matchup, only reliably takes out one mon and sometimes forces a potion on another.
Dragonair. Dragon rage continues to be good despite dealing near identical damage to surf, as the exact damage means it always 2hkos Kadabra while surf only does so without calm mind. Same goes for Mr. Mime. For Venomoth, use thunder wave (twice as Sabrina has 1 full heal) and then spam surf. The damage rolls work in a way that Sabrina always heals after 2 attacks, so even if you win you won't have the HP to live a Zam psychic. Solid matchup, always beats 2 mons and reliably beats a 3rd.
Team Dragonair lvl 41 (42 after Growlithe), Arbok lvl 43, Beedrill lvl 43, Onix lvl 40, Omastar lvl 40
Dragonair. Surf is an easy Ohko on Growlithe, same goes for Ponyta and you outspeed both. Slower than Rapidash and surf is only a 2hko, but it struggles to hurt you, half health at most if it hits and uses 2 fire blasts. Arcanine is basically the same, outspeeds you and surf 2hkos. Never had any trouble sweeping here, basically perfect matchup.
Beedrill. Growlithe is a 2hko with brick break, with or without the intimidate. Ponyta is a 3hko at -1 and 2hko without it, but you need to dodge fire blasts to get it so good luck. Doesn't do anything notable vs Rapidash or Arcanine either. really bad matchup that requires luck and grinding to win.
Arbok. Screech + return Ohkos Growlithe despite -1, and same story for Ponyta. You take two fire blasts from those two and outspeed Rapidash, so may as well chunk it with hyper beam before going down. Can switch in after something on your team goes down and Ohko Arcanine with screech + hyper beam. Good matchup, didn't expect it to outspeed every opposing mon, special bulk prevents a sweep but can at least 1v1 the threats or KO both unevolved mons.
Onix. Rock slide manages an Ohko on Growlithe as long as you sack an HM slave to remove intimidate. Arcanine comes in next, so switch out to another slave, come back in and watch rock slide do barely 1/3rd to Arcanine. Admittedly I was quite underleveled during this fight because I couldn't get experience from the water routes and gave Silph Co and the Mansion trainers to other mons (didn't want to go grinding either), but even at a more comparable level Fire blast definitely still 2hkos you because it nearly Ohkos here. Bad performance, special bulk continues to hold it back.
Omastar. Set up rain vs Growlithe, bite does hardly anything to you. Outspeed and Ohko everything on Blaine's team with a 100% accurate surf. 5 turns to KO 4 mons, very close to a literal pefect performance.
Team Dragonair lvl 44, Arbok lvl 44, Beedrill lvl 44, Omastar lvl 41, Onix lvl 45
Arbok. Don't lead with it as you can't touch Rhyhorns, even at -6 defense you don't Ohko the first one with hyper beam and get 2hkod through intimidate. Switching it in later Dugtrio is an Ohko with hyper beam (you outspeed), and screechbeam let's you beat one of the Nidos. Can't beat both but at least KOs one and chunks the other before going down. Weird matchup, okay performance that needs some support vs the Rhyhorns.
Dragonair. Very simple matchup, as it's literally just surf spam. Ohko Rhyhorn #1 and Dugtrio (it outspeeds), Nidoqueen is a 2hko but you outspeed and win. HP is too low to beat Nidoking but surf would be a 2hko if you healed and Rhyhorn #2 is definitely an Ohko. Good matchup, just lacks a bit of bulk to sweep.
Beedrill. Vs the Rhyhorns 1 Brick break + 1 Giga drain will KO each of them without putting them in potion range. If you switch to some HM slave and come back then you outspeed and 2hko Dugtrio, otherwise you lose due to speed drops. Can't touch either of the Nidos, aerial ace is roughly a 5hko on Nidoqueen. Mediocre matchup, doesn't handle the most threatening mons at all but can beat the weaker ones.
Onix. Truly remarkable how much of this game seems built to screw over Onix at every turn. Especially because EQ would improve this matchup so much, and this is the gym you gain it from :(. Anyway onto the performance, beating Rhyhorn is unreliable, but possible as long as nothing misses. Screech + rock slide + iron tail guarentees a KO at my level and avoids a potion. Problem is you get 2hkod by EQ so you need a lot of luck to both hit and hope Rhyhorn uses the right move. You can also come in (after one of your mons dies) on Dugtrio who 3hkos you with EQ while you 2hko with iron tail. You can't beat anything else, Screech only makes iron tail a 3hko on Nidoqueen who 3hkos you, didn't even try Nidoking. Terrible showing, requires a lot of overleveling to do much in this fight.
Omastar. Start by Ohkoing both Rhyhorns before setting up rain, to avoid scary face messing with your speed. Use rain dance vs Dugtrio (does a bit under half to you) and then outspeed and Ohko the rest of Giovanni's team. Excellent matchup, again only one turn off from a perfect sweep.
Team Dragonair lvl 46, Arbok lvl 46, Beedrill lvl 46, Omastar lvl 42, Onix lvl 46
Arbok. Screech + hyper beam isn't all it's cracked up to be at this point in the game tbh, that or Arbok is bad. Pidgeot doesn't do much damage to you but it can ruin you with featherdance so you always get chipped for at least a third, and it feels like the dumb bird has a 75% crit chance. Screech+return doesn't KO so go for hyper beam and switch out since you can't do anything to Zam regardless. For the rest of his team, Exeggcute can't hurt you outside of a 2 turn solarbeam, but will usually paralyze you while you spam return (2-3hko). Gyarados does about half with hydro pump, so a 2hko unless you got unlucky vs either Pidgeot or the Egg earlier. Screechbeam won't Ohko it even without the intimidate drop sadly, so go for screech + 2 returns and hope it doesn't spam hydro (it usaully does). Charizard isn't happening, it outspeeds and 2hkos with flamethrower. Zam is even worse since it Ohkos and doesn't die to an unboosted hyper beam. Rough matchup, can technically beat 3/5 mons but requires quite a bit of luck that I never got, usually you beat one and chip another.
Dragonair. 2hko both Pidgeot and Gyarados with thunderbolt, Gyara is very close to an Ohko but never got it. Charizard is a 3hko with Surf, although if Gyarados used rain dance earlier then you 2hko it. Wing attack is a 2hko on you sadly so you need some luck with AI but you can technically beat it. Exeggcute is annoying due to status but it can't do much damage and dragon rage 3hkos. Zam is also a 3hko with dragon rage but it is more dangerous as it tends to use calm mind and a +1 psychic nearly Ohkos from full. Decent matchup, can 1v1 anything except occasionally Zard and usually takes out a few mons.
Beedrill. Brick break does nothing to Pidgeot and wing attack almost Ohkos you, so don't try this. Twineedle is an easy Ohko vs Exeggcute. For the other psychic, Alakazam outspeeds and Ohkos you with psychic, but it loves to use either future sight or calm mind so you can win with a twineedle Ohko. Giga drain is close enough to an Ohko on Rhyhorn that it KOs itself with take down recoil. Charizard outspeeds and Ohkos you with either stab move, so not great. Gyarados isn't as bad but Aerial ace still does very little and 2hkos you with hydro pump. Always beats 2 mons, sometimes beats another and loses hard to the last 3, so decent matchup.
Onix. Vs Pidgeot screech + rock slide means an Ohko or 2hko depending on if it uses featherdance. Exeggcute comes in next, and you usually won't beat it due to it paralyzing you turn one and hitting you with solarbeam turn 3, screech + rock slide only 3hkos. Zam usually doesn't work out as psychic Ohkos you and earthquake only 2hkos. Sometimes the rival switches to Gyarados if you use earthquake which is kinda neat, not exploitable however as -1 rock slide doesn't do much to it and hydro pump destroys you. Rhyhorn is a good matchup since it lacks a ground move and earthquake 2hkos it. Charizard (4x weak to rock) will beat you (rock type) because it outspeeds and 2hkos with flamethrower, and rock slide doesn't quite Ohko it. Not sure how much damage you do to Gyara without intimidate as it outsped me and used hydro pump every attempt. Bad matchup, beats the two generally easier to beat mons on his team and nothing else.
Omastar. Ice beam 2hkos Pidgeot and it can't touch you, so use one then set up rain so you have enough turns to outspeed Zam. Exeggcute is an Ohko with ice beam. Alakazam is a 2hko with surf (stronger than bite) and it almost always just uses calm mind or disable. Rhyhorn is an Ohko obviously. Gyarados 2hkos with hydro pump and ice beam is about a 4hko, but you occasionally just win anyway due to bad accuracy, dumb AI and ice beam freeze/crits. Charizard can't hurt you and surf does about 99% under rain, barely missing an Ohko but you still beat it. Very positive matchup, only one bad mon and even then you might luck out and get through it.
Team Omastar lvl 49, Dragonite lvl 55, Onix lvl 53, Beedrill lvl 50, Arbok lvl 50. (notes, I had to grind for a bit in victory road because I skipped quite a few trainers in the midgame and being 7-12 levels beneath the elite 4 wouldn't give great results for testing. Dragonite is a higher level because I wasn't fighting the elite four with a Dragonair, and the last time I played leafgreen I remembered being around low 50s so that's what I did for the rest of my team)
Omastar. Bad matchup vs all the water types bar Cloyster, as you can't hurt any of them for much damage and every surf 2hkos you. Jynx and Cloyster are actaully good matchups, Jynx only 4hkos you and rain boosted surf will 2hko it, so assuming you don't get sleep/attract haxed then you beat it. Cloyster is similar except it's only actual attack just guarentees it dies to surf. Rain boosted surfs also 2hko if it doesn't use dive. Not a good matchup sadly but can contribute a bit.
Dragonite. Thunderbolt is the only reason you can contribute here, without it you just lose to anything except maybe Cloyster. I had it, so vs Dewgong you can 2hko it usually without damage as it likes to use hail or safeguard. Slowbro is next, and it's ice beam will only 2hko you and it gets 2hkod back. Jynx is barely not an Ohko with Fly and it's ice punch Ohkos you even from full. For the rest of her team Lapras is a 3hko while it Ohkos you at full once again. Cloyster can't hurt you much and goes down to one thunderbolt. Strangely good matchup, reliably beats 2 mons, and a 3rd if it comes in later. Worth noting Jynx is close enough to a KO with fly that being -attack might have mattered.
Onix. Only one mon doesn't start by doing enough damage to Ohko you 3 times over turn 1, and that's because Cloyster does it turn 2 while taking a third from rock slide. Terrible matchup but what did you expect.
Arbok. Vs Dewgong you are 3hkod and Screechbeam won't Ohko, so screech and then 2hko with return. Cloyster doesn't do much damage outside of hail chip, but that's sufficent afetr Dewgong chip and all the protect spam. Even at -4 it doesn't go down to Hyper beam either. Only mon you beat semi reliably after Dewgong is Jynx, who 2hkos you but you also 2hko with return and outspeed, so either need Dewgong to not attack or dodge a lovely kiss. Bad matchup, can't even beat 2 mons 100% reliably.
Beedrill. Low stats are definitely showing at the elite 4, would be improved with grinding but so would everything so eh. Dewgong is a 3hko with brick break, use giga drain for one of the hits to avoid a potion, either stab 3hkos but usually you only take one hit. Slowbro is a 3hko with twineedle (stronger than double edge vs psychics) but it 2hkos with surf from full and it actually uses attacks sadly. Cloyster is kinda weird, you 4hko it with either brick break or giga drain, and it 4hkos with dive. It likes to spam protect in hail so it usually won't attack enough to KO you, even if Lorelei uses a potion. If you took a hit earlier you likely lose without healing however. Lapras 2hkos you and you only 3hko with brick break. Jynx does about half with ice punch, but twineedle isn't quite an ohko so you need to dodge a lovely kiss or use a full heal. Mediocre matchup, usually only takes out one mon and then has a chance to beat another.
Team Omastar lvl 49, Dragonite lvl 55, Onix lvl 53, Beedrill lvl 50, Arbok lvl 50
Omastar. Another shaky elite 4 matchup sadly. Set up rain vs Onix 1 while earthquake does about a third. Destroy both Onixes (why he sends out Onix 2 to a certain death is beyond me) and then do about 75% to Hitmonchan before going down to sky uppercut. Tried again without rain, Onix 2 and Hitmonchan actually outsped so was still chipped enough to die vs Hitmonchan. Another bad matchup, although guarenteeing kills on the Onix is at least something even if not super valuable because Onix sucks.
Dragonite. Ohko both Onixes with surf, and Ohko both Hitmons with fly. Machamp is the only "threat" as it doesn't get Ohkoed, but if you spam dragon claw you win with a 3hko. Excellent matchup, not much to say otherwise.
Onix. Can only beat one of Bruno's Onix with an earthquake 2hko, as the second one outspeeds and 2hkos you before you 3hko back. Tested vs the fighters, Hitmonchan is the weakest and it outspeeds and 2hkos before you can 3hko it. Really bad matchup, high physical defense doesn't help enough with the meager HP and attack.
Arbok. My set has 2 normal moves, screech and glare, so I can't touch the Onix, but giga drain would do something if you had it. For the rest, both hitmons are easy Ohkos with hyper beam after 1 screech, Chan only does about a 5hko with -1 rock tomb and -1 mega kick from Lee does slightly more. Machamp is messy, but you usually won't beat it after the hitmons unless you heal. I found the best way was using screech twice and then spamming return, which is a 2-5hko depending on bulk ups and potions used, and only going for hyper beam if Machamp was low enough that it wouldn't heal but return would put it in potion range. Overall decent matchup, can beat every fighter with 1 potion used but not very consistent vs Machamp (maybe 65% odds to win).
Beedrill. Rough, fighting resist doesn't help much when Bruno's coverage of rock and normal moves is sufficent to pound you. You beat both Onixes with a giga drain 2hko, but the fighters are a different story, you 2hko the hitmons with double edge, but Hitmonlee will usually reduce your speed with one rock tomb then finish you off. Machamp and Hitmonlee just straight up Ohko you. Bad matchup, only beats Onixes and Bruno doesn't even try to sacrifice Onix #2, he just sends in Chan after 1 Onix goes down.
Team Omastar lvl 49, Dragonite lvl 55, Onix lvl 53, Beedrill lvl 51, Arbok lvl 51
Omastar. Don't set up rain vs Gengar 1 since it's a 2hko either way and toxic sucks. use surf once on Golbat then use rain dance, proceed to KO it and Ohko the Haunter that comes in. Vs Gengar 2 you're low enough (about half) that Gengar sometimes just attacks instead of using hypnosis despite you not actually being in KO range of shadow ball. Even if it does use hypnosis it can miss and you might wake up fast enough that it doesn't matter. Rain runs out vs Arbok and does about 30 damage per hit with iron tail, sometimes you have enough HP to tank it while setting up rain and 2hkoing with surf. Good matchup, sadly this is Agatha so sometimes you do lose due to hitting yourself in confusion 4 times in a row, other than that it's a sweep.
Dragonite. Outspeed Gengar 1 and 2hko with dragon claw, it just spams double team even if you miss. Golbat is nearly an Ohko with thunderbolt, but not quite. The only threatening thing it can do is land a confuse ray or poison you but usually it just uses a weak attack. Arbok is also a 2hko with dragon claw, if it lands screech you won't beat the 2nd Gengar without switching but otherwise it doesn't do much. Gengar 2 is a real luckfest, it outspeeds and dragon claw 2hkos but with hypnosis, nightmare and 2 strong attacks it can get ugly fast. Sometimes it misses two hypnosis and does nothing, sometimes you just get 2hkoed due to chip damage from the earlier mons. With a full restore or even held chesto berry you generally always beat it, without it you can but it's not very consistent. Haunter is last for some reason and unless it uses and lands a hypnosis you 2hko it with dragon claw. Solid matchup, occasionally sweeps without an item and basically always does with one.
Onix. Technically you 2hko Gengar 1 after a screech, but in practice it spams double team, confuse ray and toxic. You might beat it if it doesn't use toxic, but you'll usually be at very low health so it's not great. You can 2hko Golbat with rock slide before bite 4hkos, but it outspeeds so you take a lot of chip and probably confusion. Arbok is also possible at full HP, since earthquake 2hkos it and screech + iron tail 'only' does about 90/113 HP. Funnilly enough Gengar 2 is a better matchup than the first as it can only really hurt you with nightmare, and it might miss hypnosis plus you can wake up early. Still a bad matchup because the best way to take it down is screech twice and rock slide twice, needs some luck but possible. Haunter is similar, but only needs one screech. Overall pretty bad matchup, becuase if it's been chipped from beating one mon it then doesn't have enough HP for the next. At least can 1v1 anything with a bit of luck.
Arbok. My set only has normal moves so not gonna do great vs 3 ghost types. Probably should've kept bite considering I barely used glare and haven't used stockpile once yet. Only beats Golbat if it loses 0 or 1 turns to either flinching or confusion, because the best way to KO it is 2 screeches + hyper beam. You can't chip with return either because if you ever use a normal move and don't Ohko then Agatha switches to a ghost type. You can beat Arbok the same way but you'll need to heal if you also fought Golbat. Bad matchup, can't touch the biggest threats at all.
Beedrill. Can't touch the ghosts unless you still have aerial ace, but even with that I doubt it does much to them. For Golbat you nearly get Ohkoed by a single air cutter and double edge barely does a third in return. With Arbok you 4hko with initmidate, 3hko without. Iron tail 2hkos you but you can win since both it and screech have bad accuracy. Very bad matchup, needs luck to even beat one mon.
Team Omastar lvl 50, Dragonite lvl 55 (56 after Gyarados), Onix lvl 53, Beedrill lvl 51, Arbok lvl 51
Omastar. Don't even try vs Gyarados, ice beam is like a 6hko and it wins the war of attrition. Set up rain vs Dragonair, ice beam and blizzard are both 2hkos sadly. Next Dragonair comes in and usually beats you with twave or outrage unless you heal. Dragonite is a 2hko even with blizzard, you won't beat it if he uses outrage turn 1 since it 2hkos so items can't save you. Aerodactyl is thankfully free since ancient power doesn't do much and you outspeed and Ohko under rain. Dissapointing matchup since I expected clean Ohkos on the dragons, needs a item but can beat 3/5 which still isn't bad by any means.
Dragonite. Time to shine. Ohko Gyarados with thunderbolt, Ohko both Dragonairs with Dragon claw. You outspeed Lance's Dragonite since it doesn't have EVs and you do. Dragon claw has a chance to 2hko despite sitrus, more likely you take one hit from outrage (he nearly always used safeguard turn 1) but live and beat it. Beats Aerodactyl with no support if you 2hkoed Dragonite as ancient power only 3hkos you. If you got chipped by ourtrage then you need two items to heal up and 2hko it with surf. Incredibly good matchup, either sweeps with no difficulty or with a few items for the last mon.
Onix. Gyarados isn't good since it 3hkos with bite and you only 2hko after a screech. Dragonairs are similar since they use dragon rage + outrage and always 2hko you, earthquake 3hkos in return. Dragonite Ohkos you so don't even bother. You beat Aerodactyl at least since it can't hurt you and is weak to rock slide. Bad matchup, only beats one mon.
Arbok. Doesn't beat Gyara unless you switch, if you do 2 screeches + hyper beam Ohkos but you end at like 60 hp and can't do anything else. Can beat both Dragonairs by using screech and 2 returns on one, and screech hyper beam on the other. Doesn't beat Dragonite even if it uses safeguard and you're at full health, since outrage 2hkos and hyper beam won't Ohko even at -4 defense. Same goes for Aerodactyl. Bad performance, at least can support a bit by beating Dragonairs.
Beedrill. Gyarados Ohkos you with hyper beam, Dragonair 1 and 2 Ohko you with hyper beam after double edge recoil, Dragonite Ohkos you with hyper beam, Aerodactyl Ohkos you with ancientpower. Do I need to tell you my thoughts on this performance?
Team Omastar lvl 51, Dragonite lvl 56, Onix lvl 53, Beedrill lvl 51, Arbok lvl 51
Omastar. 2hko Pidgeot with ice beam, it roughly 7hkos and usually just sand attacks. Rhydon you outspeed and obviously Ohko. Even blizzard won't Ohko Exeggutor and it always uses giga drain to Ohko you, so avoid it. Gyarados 2hkos with hydro pump and ice beam does nothing to it so also avoid. Alakazam is doable if you only took one hit from Pidgeot since psychic does ~120/146 hp, you also need it to waste a turn going for reflect or future sight, if so you can set up rain and 2hko it. You may need to heal for Charizard if you took a psychic, but under rain fire blast is like a 6hko and you 2hko with surf so it's a win. Good matchup, only luck needed is for Zam but otherwise consistently beats 4/6 mons on his team.
Dragonite. Thunderbolt 2hkos Pidgeot who usually just goes for a weak aerial ace. Gyarados is barely not an Ohko but thrash or dragon rage don't do much damage and you outspeed. Rhydon goes down to one surf, don't ask me why the second strongest trainer in Kanto sends out a Rhydon for something with surf. Alakazam is a 2hko with fly if it uses reflect, 3hko if it does, both regardless of intimidate. Psychic is a 2hko, you can win despite being outsped since it spams future sight a lot instead of psychic, however it's more common to lose if you don't heal. In order to sweep you'll have to heal against Exeggutor, but even if you don't then beating 4/6 mons is quite good. Exeggutor is a 2hko without intimidate, 3hko with, sleep powder is annoying but there is no reason to not use full heals at this point in the game and egg bomb is like a 6hko. Charizard 4hkos with fire blast and outspeeds, you 3hko with 2 dragon claws and thunderbolt (avoids healing), so you need to either heal or dodge a fire blast. Very good matchup with a sweep, but needing items and some luck for Zam means it isn't perfect.
Onix. I lost to Pidgeot one time because I missed so much and didn't ohko it even at -6 defense due to featherdance being used once, so a flying type that dealt ~10/116 hp damage beat my rock type. I hate this thing. Usually you do beat Pidgeot, use screech twice if it goes for featherdance and once otherwise, 2hko with rock slide, just hope sand attack doesn't ruin you. Rhydon Ohkos you with earthquake and you maybe 3hko, so don't. Charizard outspeeds and 2hkos you, Onix can beat it if Charizard misses fire blast and it hits 2 rock slides, but still not a good showing. Everything else Ohkos and outspeeds so, terrible matchup, most of the time beats Pidgeot, might beat Charizard with quite a bit of luck.
Arbok. Loses to Pidgeot due to being outsped and 4hkod, screeching 2 times and hyper beam doesn't ohko. The only mon you reliably beat without potions is Exeggutor since intimidated egg bombs are a 4hko giving you enough time to screech 2 times and 2hko with return. Gyarados and Pidgeot are both doable with potion spam if you really need to take them down. The rest do too much damage or resist normal so won't work without insane luck. Bad matchup, low base attack really hinders screechbeam this late in the game.
Beedrill. Pidgeot, Gyarados, Rhydon, (you outspeed but it's a 4hko) Alakazam and Charizard all outspeed and Ohko with their stabs, so to do anything against any of them I would've had to grind levels above the rest of my team. You outspeed Exeggutor but twineedle is garbage and doesn't Ohko so you need to dodge sleep powder or use an item. Really bad performance, only beats one mon and would require lots of grinding to accomplish much else.
Now for my nominations,
Also a quick question, what's a good level for the elite 4? My whole team was in the low 50s bar Dragonite since that's what I remembered from the last time I beat this game, but everything that wasn't a dragon struggled a fair bit. Is this just due to only using low tier mons or should I have taken everyone to say, level 55?
Onix... I'm disappointed but not surprised by. I was seriously hanging onto hope after you talked about Screech but, yeah, the logs lay it clear that it's ultimately not capable of doing much where it doesn't have an extreme type advantage. Omanyte sweeping things with Rain Dance is a very funny image but one I'm quite happy to see, and Dragonite while it's clear it needs a little bit of favouring is certainly worth it. For the rare candy on Sabrina, I feel they should be saved before the league but overall I'm fine with it; when it's a difference of one level that's pretty fluid and most players would probably go ahead and level straight to evolution.
Overall, I think I agree with your ranks; I personally feel the fossils shouldn't escape D just for how late and how low level they come, but it's nice to see that Omanyte actually has a similar enough performance to Aerodactyl here! Once the next update rolls around I'm gonna do this for sure. Thanks for your dedication to this; it's nice to see someone who likes FRLG as much as I do!
For the levelling question, I absolutely agree on 50s. I think between 51 and 55 makes a lot of sense; all of my team actually ended up being Level 54 after spending the 12 rare candies and I definitely feel it's reasonable. Otherwise, like what was said in the RSE thread; you risk seriously undervaluing the performance of a Pokémon because naturally anything will perform badly if it's at enough of a level disadvantage.
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Zard doesnt learn solarbeam in gen3, fyi.
Oh trust me, I learned precisely before fighting Giovanni and I was beyond heartbroken
Thanks for the answer, glad to see we agree on the noms! I was also pleasantly surprised by how some of team performed in various matchups, especially Dragonair and Beedrill who I thought would have been quite deadweight in mid game but ended up being very competent. Also yeah running through this game again was a blast, just as much fun as I remembered. Thanks for the input on levels, I'll shoot for that in my next run then!
Double post but oh well, would rather post this than wait and then post like 12 logs at once. Doing a run with the Spearow, Hitmonlee, Magnemite, Shellder and Nidoran F (trade) lines.
Very good in early game thanks to stab secret power and 90 base attack being way above average for this point. Later on normal/flying is only resisted by rock types (since steels basically don't exist) so it should be able to contribute a fair bit in most major battles, not sure how much longer it will sweep everything however. Also worth noting this thing doesn't need the aerial ace TM, since you get it right before rock tunnel and never use it before replacing it with fly. Overall I'm very interested in this one lategame!
The trade Nidoqueen is interesting, since getting bonus exp is always great, but it's locked to a bold nature (+defense -attack) which is bad news for her already mediocre attack. So far it's been smooth sailing thanks to the early evolution and strong moves like body slam and dig, I'm hoping late game is carried by it's insane movepool and good bulk.
I've had for all of one fight, so can't really comment on it's performance yet. Just looking at how Machamp has been in Kurona's run I doubt Lee will stay A rank, since Machamp is basically just better than Hitmonlee in every way except speed. It definitely seems good, but fighting types have an uphill battle in Kanto due to the Poison/Flying/Psychic types everywhere. Bulk up should be a major boost whenever I get it, might not be enough to overcome bad matchups but we shall see.
Team, Spearow lvl 14 (15 vs Onix).
Spearow. I opted to use potion spam for this fight since that's faster than the however many hours it would take to grind up to Fearow for this fight. Use leer once then just start spamming fury attack on Geodude, you should win the slugfest if you use leer whenever he uses defense curl. For Onix, use potions until he misses with rock tomb. Then use growl 6 times followed by leer 6 times, healing if you dip below ~15 hp. About 4 uses of Fury attack and Onix should go down. Terrible matchup, I'm pretty sure anything can sweep this fight if it has growl and uses 9+ potions so even though I won I wouldn't call it efficient.
Spearow. I opted to use potion spam for this fight since that's faster than the however many hours it would take to grind up to Fearow for this fight. Use leer once then just start spamming fury attack on Geodude, you should win the slugfest if you use leer whenever he uses defense curl. For Onix, use potions until he misses with rock tomb. Then use growl 6 times followed by leer 6 times, healing if you dip below ~15 hp. About 4 uses of Fury attack and Onix should go down. Terrible matchup, I'm pretty sure anything can sweep this fight if it has growl and uses 9+ potions so even though I won I wouldn't call it efficient.
Team, Fearow lvl 20
Fearow. Couldn't beat this fight when I arrived as a level 19 Spearow, so grinded one level in the grass. The fight was easy, 3hko Pidgeotto with peck, it only does ~8 damage per hit. 3+ hits of fury attack KO Ratata, isn't a threat either way. Abra is as devastating as usual, Bulbasaur can be annoying since peck doesn't Ohko and if it lands sleep powder you might take a lot of damage. Most of the time it does nothing however. Very good performance.
Fearow. Couldn't beat this fight when I arrived as a level 19 Spearow, so grinded one level in the grass. The fight was easy, 3hko Pidgeotto with peck, it only does ~8 damage per hit. 3+ hits of fury attack KO Ratata, isn't a threat either way. Abra is as devastating as usual, Bulbasaur can be annoying since peck doesn't Ohko and if it lands sleep powder you might take a lot of damage. Most of the time it does nothing however. Very good performance.
Team, Fearow lvl 22, Nidoqueen lvl 22
Fearow. Secret power gets a nice Ohko on Staryu, 2hkos Starmie while it does about a third with water pulse. Great matchup, stab secret power and final evolution is OP this early.
Nidoqueen. Actually runs into the level cap for traded mons so it won't obey you most of the time. Generally it beats Staryu as it gets 2hkoed by body slam and it would rather spam harden than attack you. Starmie isn't happening even if we ignore obedience, as it outspeeds and 2hkos you. Bad matchup but at least can beat Staryu.
Fearow. Secret power gets a nice Ohko on Staryu, 2hkos Starmie while it does about a third with water pulse. Great matchup, stab secret power and final evolution is OP this early.
Nidoqueen. Actually runs into the level cap for traded mons so it won't obey you most of the time. Generally it beats Staryu as it gets 2hkoed by body slam and it would rather spam harden than attack you. Starmie isn't happening even if we ignore obedience, as it outspeeds and 2hkos you. Bad matchup but at least can beat Staryu.
Team, Fearow lvl 24, Nidoqueen lvl 23 (gains 2 levels, one after Pidgeotto, one after Raticate.) slightly overleveled on both mons, blame the rival for barely training his team.
Fearow. Sweeps, secret power 2hkos Pidgeotto, Ohkos both Raticate and Kadabra. Peck is a 2hko on Ivysaur, but even if it sleeps you resisting vine whip means it can't do much. Very good performance, even if it was a bit overleveled.
Nidoqueen. 2hko Pidgeotto with body slam, Ohko Raticate with double kick. Kadabra outspeeds but it's no matter because bite Ohkos it. Ivysaur is a 2hko with dig, if both leech seed and sleep powder hit you lose without items, otherwise it's a win.Excellent performance, early evolution on my team so far is destroying early game.
Fearow. Sweeps, secret power 2hkos Pidgeotto, Ohkos both Raticate and Kadabra. Peck is a 2hko on Ivysaur, but even if it sleeps you resisting vine whip means it can't do much. Very good performance, even if it was a bit overleveled.
Nidoqueen. 2hko Pidgeotto with body slam, Ohko Raticate with double kick. Kadabra outspeeds but it's no matter because bite Ohkos it. Ivysaur is a 2hko with dig, if both leech seed and sleep powder hit you lose without items, otherwise it's a win.Excellent performance, early evolution on my team so far is destroying early game.
Team Fearow lvl 25, Nidoqueen lvl 25
Fearow. Secret power is an Ohko on both Voltorb and Pikachu. Raichu is a win if you don't get paralyzed by static, since shock wave only 2hkos you. I used leer + secret power to reduce static chance since it's a 2hko normally, but it doesn't matter much. Much better performance than expected tbh.
Nidoqueen. 3 Ohkos with dig, even if Raichu uses double team it can't hurt you so you win eventually. Perfect matchup, not much to say.
Fearow. Secret power is an Ohko on both Voltorb and Pikachu. Raichu is a win if you don't get paralyzed by static, since shock wave only 2hkos you. I used leer + secret power to reduce static chance since it's a 2hko normally, but it doesn't matter much. Much better performance than expected tbh.
Nidoqueen. 3 Ohkos with dig, even if Raichu uses double team it can't hurt you so you win eventually. Perfect matchup, not much to say.
Team Fearow lvl 30, Nidoqueen lvl 29 (30 after Kadabra, 31 after Growlithe), Hitmonlee lvl 25 (26 after Pidgeotto)
Hitmonlee. This fight seemed as good a place to go pick up Lee as any other time, so I cleared out the fighting dojo with Fearow and here we are. 2hkos Pidgeotto, who does half with gust but most of the time just uses sand attack. Ohko Kadabra with brick break despite the resistance. Gyarados isn't happening, too strong, 3hkod by mega kick and it has intimidate, thrash 2hkos you. Ohko Growlithe even at -1 attack with brick break. Mega kick will 2hko Ivysaur, but it can miss and if you get slept then you need luck to wake up before being 4hkod by razor leaf. Solid matchup, beats 3/5 mons.
Fearow. Way overleveled so take this performance with a hefty grain of salt. 2hko Pidgeotto with secret power, gust does like 10 damage. Gyarados is a 3hko with fly due to intimidate, you usually end at like 25 hp. Growlithe does nothing with ember, 2hkod despite being at -2. Kadabra is an Ohko because I'm OP. Ivysaur is a 2hko with fly, only a threat if it both uses and lands sleep powder, and you can just switch to remove intimidate. Dominating matchup, but I was 5 levels over his ace mon so not exactly fair.
Nidoqueen. 2hkos Pidgeotto with body slam, Kadabra comes in but you outspeed and Ohko with body slam. Beats the slugfest with Gyara, as you 4hko it and it 5hkos with thrash. Growlithe is close to an Ohko with dig at -2, but ember doesn't do much so it's fine. Ivysaur is winnable if you switch as it makes dig a 2hko, but you may have obediance issues and still need to dodge a sleep powder. Very good matchup, but is quite overleveled so it'd be more of a shock if it didn't do very well.
Hitmonlee. This fight seemed as good a place to go pick up Lee as any other time, so I cleared out the fighting dojo with Fearow and here we are. 2hkos Pidgeotto, who does half with gust but most of the time just uses sand attack. Ohko Kadabra with brick break despite the resistance. Gyarados isn't happening, too strong, 3hkod by mega kick and it has intimidate, thrash 2hkos you. Ohko Growlithe even at -1 attack with brick break. Mega kick will 2hko Ivysaur, but it can miss and if you get slept then you need luck to wake up before being 4hkod by razor leaf. Solid matchup, beats 3/5 mons.
Fearow. Way overleveled so take this performance with a hefty grain of salt. 2hko Pidgeotto with secret power, gust does like 10 damage. Gyarados is a 3hko with fly due to intimidate, you usually end at like 25 hp. Growlithe does nothing with ember, 2hkod despite being at -2. Kadabra is an Ohko because I'm OP. Ivysaur is a 2hko with fly, only a threat if it both uses and lands sleep powder, and you can just switch to remove intimidate. Dominating matchup, but I was 5 levels over his ace mon so not exactly fair.
Nidoqueen. 2hkos Pidgeotto with body slam, Kadabra comes in but you outspeed and Ohko with body slam. Beats the slugfest with Gyara, as you 4hko it and it 5hkos with thrash. Growlithe is close to an Ohko with dig at -2, but ember doesn't do much so it's fine. Ivysaur is winnable if you switch as it makes dig a 2hko, but you may have obediance issues and still need to dodge a sleep powder. Very good matchup, but is quite overleveled so it'd be more of a shock if it didn't do very well.
Very good in early game thanks to stab secret power and 90 base attack being way above average for this point. Later on normal/flying is only resisted by rock types (since steels basically don't exist) so it should be able to contribute a fair bit in most major battles, not sure how much longer it will sweep everything however. Also worth noting this thing doesn't need the aerial ace TM, since you get it right before rock tunnel and never use it before replacing it with fly. Overall I'm very interested in this one lategame! The trade Nidoqueen is interesting, since getting bonus exp is always great, but it's locked to a bold nature (+defense -attack) which is bad news for her already mediocre attack. So far it's been smooth sailing thanks to the early evolution and strong moves like body slam and dig, I'm hoping late game is carried by it's insane movepool and good bulk. I've had for all of one fight, so can't really comment on it's performance yet. Just looking at how Machamp has been in Kurona's run I doubt Lee will stay A rank, since Machamp is basically just better than Hitmonlee in every way except speed. It definitely seems good, but fighting types have an uphill battle in Kanto due to the Poison/Flying/Psychic types everywhere. Bulk up should be a major boost whenever I get it, might not be enough to overcome bad matchups but we shall see.Pretty great; awesome to see you start another run so soon! I should... really get to doing my E4 stuff, huh?
So far it's going about as expected; early final evos really do let you stomp everything -- I know that well enough from both Mr. Nido and Gyarados. Talking of Mr. Nido I'm happy to see someone test his counterpart; and one surprise that sticks out to me is Fearow actually handling Surge with no problem!
So far it's going about as expected; early final evos really do let you stomp everything -- I know that well enough from both Mr. Nido and Gyarados. Talking of Mr. Nido I'm happy to see someone test his counterpart; and one surprise that sticks out to me is Fearow actually handling Surge with no problem!
Right, let's get this done already! After I got out of Victory Road my team were all about Level 50 (aside from Mr. Mime who with boosted exp had reached 54), and I done a very quick fly around the world map to get the rare candies I missed before splitting all 12 between the non-mime members to get 'em all to 54. It's also at that point I spent my money on game corner TMs and items; this is the point in the game I tend to get things like the Ice Beam TM (which I actually didn't need this time around!), unless there's something that's absolutely demanding it. As stated before I also got both Leftovers; at this point in the game 30 Pokémon is not a hard achievement at all and anyone who wants a boosting Pokémon will probably take the few minutes needed to do so.
So after all this, where does this put my rank opinions? Where do we start?
Well, how about the easiest one. Mr. Mime is S-rank and I must have been crazy to think otherwise. This is easily one of the most broken Pokémon in the game; not just acting like Alakazam, but honestly? Between boosted exp and access to Thunderbolt I would argue it's better than even that! A few very minor matchups niggles aside the only real 'flaws' here were the occasional PP conservation and a bit of obedience trouble just before Misty and Erika. Otherwise this thing just breaks everything, except the things it can't break, in which case it just uses Calm Mind and breaks anyway. One of the most S-tier things I've ever seen. Hell, if you want any more of an argument? You might notice that my levels during the league were very lopsided; only Mr. Mime was gaining levels. This is because I was doing multiple fights with each member to test all the variables, and ultimately to save healing/restoration items I decided to have Mr. Mime win each fight in my 'last' test. This essentially means Mr. Mime solo'd the entire league in real terms. This stupid little mime is made of destruction.
Machamp is going down to B-rank, and I would be considering lower if some of its league performances didn't surprise me so much. Champion was disappointing, but it aced Lorelei and Bruno while doing way better against Agatha and Lance than it had any right to. Otherwise, though...? VERY lopsided. Even despite its very early final evo power boost it struggles with a lot of matchups between a lot of Pokémon being geared against fighting-types (so many poisons and psychics), and it just being so darn slow. Bulk Up really saves a lot of its later performances but it's just not the solid, reliable tank I remember it being.
Gyarados is going up to B-rank and if I didn't know better I would suggest A. I am actually a little conflicted here -- you saw in these logs just how many important battles it seriously comes through on. Early-game fights are naturally a wash with how powerful it is, but even when I got to the later stages of the game and I thought it'd drop off... no, this thing just kept going! Everywhere says it has 60 base Special Attack but I don't really think it cares that that's a fact as it's very content to destroy everything with Surf anyway! And even when it isn't that powerful? You can't underestimate its bulk. THIS is what carried it through: Gyarados has so much special defence backed up by a very respectable HP and Defence that carries it through fights you otherwise wouldn't expect it to win and late-game Dragon Dance set-ups to levels of boosts you wouldn't think would be possible. I can't really bring to myself to put a Magikarp you have to raise from 5 to 20 anywhere above B, but once you get past that there's scarcely a bad point in its career. I could seriously see arguments for A and I can definitely say it was the best non-mime Pokémon on the team.
Charizard will probably stay in A, but I have to admit I'm quite conflicted. Its transition period between Surge and Flamethrower is very rocky for sure; I don't think it's as bad as people say but it definitely lets it down at key moments, such as Erika not being as easy as she should have been for a fire-type starter. The moment it does get Flamethrower though it all snowballs from there and becomes one of the most reliable Pokémon you could come across; easily the best fire-type in the game in my opinions and one who isn't lacking in power later with Sunny Day proving time and time again a beyond reliable strategy, even if I am still sad about Solarbeam not being a thing. Let's say... I still consider it A for now, but am much more sympathetic towards the argument for B. Its worst moments are a lot rougher than they should be, but ultimately it comes into its own so much the later in the game you get.[/hide]
Charizard: Level 45. Sunny Day-boosted Flamethrowers break through Growlithe and Ponyta with ease, but it's an effort to take down Rapidash and Arcanine finishes you off. B-tier performance, done better than you might think
Gyarados: Level 47. I have Rain Dance by this point, so I set it up and what do you know? Outsped and OHKOd everything with Surf! S-tier performance, but you knew that already
Mr. Mime: Level (46 after Arcanine). This would be disappointing as Arcanine is only a 3HKO... but Growlithe is easy to set up 2-3 Calm Minds on, so you outspeed and sweep everything for an easy S-tier performance
Machamp: Level 45. This one goes surprisingly badly. First of all as you might expect, Bulk Up isn't very useful here as they spam Fire Blast -- and they spam it *hard*; even Growlithe hits hard enough for setting up to have little viability. After breaking through Growlithe and Ponyta with two Bulk Ups, ultimately Machamp isn't able to handle first blasts from Rapidash and goes down very quickly. On another attempt I tried sending her out against Arcanine and that went just as badly; even trying to bypass intimidate with a sacrifice she could only 2HKO it with boosted Revenge. Ultimately special attacks and intimidate work against you so much that this is a C-tier performance.
Gyarados: Level 47. I have Rain Dance by this point, so I set it up and what do you know? Outsped and OHKOd everything with Surf! S-tier performance, but you knew that already
Mr. Mime: Level (46 after Arcanine). This would be disappointing as Arcanine is only a 3HKO... but Growlithe is easy to set up 2-3 Calm Minds on, so you outspeed and sweep everything for an easy S-tier performance
Machamp: Level 45. This one goes surprisingly badly. First of all as you might expect, Bulk Up isn't very useful here as they spam Fire Blast -- and they spam it *hard*; even Growlithe hits hard enough for setting up to have little viability. After breaking through Growlithe and Ponyta with two Bulk Ups, ultimately Machamp isn't able to handle first blasts from Rapidash and goes down very quickly. On another attempt I tried sending her out against Arcanine and that went just as badly; even trying to bypass intimidate with a sacrifice she could only 2HKO it with boosted Revenge. Ultimately special attacks and intimidate work against you so much that this is a C-tier performance.
Charizard: Level 47. Gets completely merced by either Rhyhorn, but after that does pretty well! Sunny Flamethrower OHKOs Dugtrio and Nidoking, and just misses out on a Nidoqueen OHKO; and none of them give you any issue setting up. A-tier performance; it can't fully sweep, but it can easily deal with the actual threats.
Gyarados: Level 47. Surf OHKOs Rhyhorn, Dugtrio and Nidoking and just misses out on an OHKO on Nidoqueen. S-tier performance
Mr. Mime: Level 48. You're not able to set up more than one Calm Mind, but that's all you need; at +1 you outspeed and OHKO everything. S-tier performance
Machamp: Level 46 (47 after Nidoqueen). Her best matchup in a while! Rhyhorn is easy set-up bait, meaning with Revenge or Strength you OHKO everything (aside from, once again, Nidoqueen who is only just a 2HKO). S-tier performance
Gyarados: Level 47. Surf OHKOs Rhyhorn, Dugtrio and Nidoking and just misses out on an OHKO on Nidoqueen. S-tier performance
Mr. Mime: Level 48. You're not able to set up more than one Calm Mind, but that's all you need; at +1 you outspeed and OHKO everything. S-tier performance
Machamp: Level 46 (47 after Nidoqueen). Her best matchup in a while! Rhyhorn is easy set-up bait, meaning with Revenge or Strength you OHKO everything (aside from, once again, Nidoqueen who is only just a 2HKO). S-tier performance
Charizard: Level 47. I, um. Well. Right now as I make this post I'm realising I either forgot to test this or put the test in my notes. ... whoops! Well, if the rival fights before and after are any indication; it should be capable of taking care of Pidgeot and Alakazam with Sunny Flamethrower, with Rhyhorn and Blastoise being too much to handle and Exeggcute and Growlithe dying. B-tier performance, I guess?? Sorry!
Gyarados: Level 47. Pretty decent! Rain Surf 2HKOs Pidgeot and Alakazam, you OHKO Rhyhorn and Growlithe and you're able to outlast Blastoise and Exeggcute in an endurance match. Once again, no easy KOs but ultimately a simple win; A-tier performance.
Mr. Mime: Level 48. Its roughest performance since Saffron. Pidgeot makes it difficult to set-up so you just get one Calm Mind in, which is enough to 2HKO Pidgeot and Exeggcute; OHKO Rhyhorn and Growlithe; and 3HKO Alakazam and Blastoise. You can deal with any of these just fine, but dealing with *all* of them is the issue here. You end up overwhelmed in the end unless you get very lucky, but you can still handle anything your way in a vacuum. A-tier performance.
Machamp: Level 47. Just not very good. Pidgeot's featherdance means setting up is a nigh-impossible task and it's very hard to deal with Pidgeot in general. You 2HKO Alakazam but it 2HKOs you back, and it's a similar experience with Blastoise; leaving Rhyhorn, Growlithe and Exeggcute as the things you can deal with. C-tier performance.
Gyarados: Level 47. Pretty decent! Rain Surf 2HKOs Pidgeot and Alakazam, you OHKO Rhyhorn and Growlithe and you're able to outlast Blastoise and Exeggcute in an endurance match. Once again, no easy KOs but ultimately a simple win; A-tier performance.
Mr. Mime: Level 48. Its roughest performance since Saffron. Pidgeot makes it difficult to set-up so you just get one Calm Mind in, which is enough to 2HKO Pidgeot and Exeggcute; OHKO Rhyhorn and Growlithe; and 3HKO Alakazam and Blastoise. You can deal with any of these just fine, but dealing with *all* of them is the issue here. You end up overwhelmed in the end unless you get very lucky, but you can still handle anything your way in a vacuum. A-tier performance.
Machamp: Level 47. Just not very good. Pidgeot's featherdance means setting up is a nigh-impossible task and it's very hard to deal with Pidgeot in general. You 2HKO Alakazam but it 2HKOs you back, and it's a similar experience with Blastoise; leaving Rhyhorn, Growlithe and Exeggcute as the things you can deal with. C-tier performance.
Charizard: Level 54. Sunny Flamethrower OHKOs Jynx and Cloyster and actually lets you 2HKO Lapras while just surviving three Surfs. On Dewgong it is possible to Sunny Day Fire Blast through it as you get a 2HKO on high rolls, but you take so much damage you're useless for Lapras -- and Slowbro of course you can't beat. Truth be told I'm still so so sad that I can't just Solarbeam through this for a better performance... but overall this is still better than expected. A-tier performance; handily takes care of the two biggest threats and can take care of anything but can't win on its own.
Gyarados: Level 54. Baby's first DD sweep! At +3 you easily 2HKO Dewgong, Lapras and Slowbro and OHKO Jynx, while Surf 3HKOs Cloyster. And none of these Pokémon can really do anything to you, either; they're all set-up bait! S-rank performance, a clean sweep.
Mr. Mime: Level 54 (55 after Slowbro). Mr. Mime Calm Minds And OHKO Sweeps With Thunderbolt Funny Moments. S-tier performance
Machamp: Level 54. Revenge OHKOs Dewgong if you're attacked, but just misses out on one if you're not. Thing is though you don't take much damage so it's good set-up bait! At +1 you 3HKO Slowbro with Strength (who weirdly only wants to Yawn, so that's okay set-up bait too). At +3 Revenge actually OHKOs Cloyster without being attacked first, and naturally you OHKO Jynx and Lapras but they will try to bother you with Lovely Kiss and Surf. I'm going to say A-rank performance on this one -- it's possible to sweep but you are likely to be put to sleep and KO'd by something. Ultimately though it's able to handle absolutely anything in this battle and contribute a lot more than you'd think.
Gyarados: Level 54. Baby's first DD sweep! At +3 you easily 2HKO Dewgong, Lapras and Slowbro and OHKO Jynx, while Surf 3HKOs Cloyster. And none of these Pokémon can really do anything to you, either; they're all set-up bait! S-rank performance, a clean sweep.
Mr. Mime: Level 54 (55 after Slowbro). Mr. Mime Calm Minds And OHKO Sweeps With Thunderbolt Funny Moments. S-tier performance
Machamp: Level 54. Revenge OHKOs Dewgong if you're attacked, but just misses out on one if you're not. Thing is though you don't take much damage so it's good set-up bait! At +1 you 3HKO Slowbro with Strength (who weirdly only wants to Yawn, so that's okay set-up bait too). At +3 Revenge actually OHKOs Cloyster without being attacked first, and naturally you OHKO Jynx and Lapras but they will try to bother you with Lovely Kiss and Surf. I'm going to say A-rank performance on this one -- it's possible to sweep but you are likely to be put to sleep and KO'd by something. Ultimately though it's able to handle absolutely anything in this battle and contribute a lot more than you'd think.
Charizard: Level 54. Pretty bad! The first Onix, Machamp and Hitmonchan you can technically beat, but their Rock Tombs 2HKO you and leave you useless for anything else. Onix 2 and Hitmonlee you can 2HKO with Flamethrower. C-tier performance bordering on B; you can contribute and can potentially take out the greatest threat but not much else.
Gyarados: Level 54. You naturally OHKO the Onixes with Surf, but afterwards... well, you do *fine*, but they don't make it easy for you. Surf 2HKOs Hitmonchan, 3HKOs Machamp and 3-4HKOs Hitmonlee depending on your rolls. The problem is that Hitmonchan and Machamp both have Rock Tomb and not only does that pose a threat on its own, it also means you can't safely set-up on them. The Onixes are of course a joke (the second one doesn't even have rock tomb) and you can take anything else out, but it struggles to win on its own and Machamp can be a bother. Intimidate support, however, is invaluable. A-tier performance bordering on B.
Mr. Mime: Level 55 (56 after Hitmonchan). Golly gosh I wonder if you sweep with Psychic? Yeah you sweep with Psychic. S-tier performance.
Machamp: Level 54. This is a sweep! Onix is easy set-up bait so at +2, Revenge OHKOs everything but the opposing Machamp; who does a Bulk Up of his own and makes your Revenge only 2HKO. Depending on what he does afterwards this could potentially mean you lose, and Onix is the only real set-up bait here. A-tier performance though, this is very impressive all things considered.
Gyarados: Level 54. You naturally OHKO the Onixes with Surf, but afterwards... well, you do *fine*, but they don't make it easy for you. Surf 2HKOs Hitmonchan, 3HKOs Machamp and 3-4HKOs Hitmonlee depending on your rolls. The problem is that Hitmonchan and Machamp both have Rock Tomb and not only does that pose a threat on its own, it also means you can't safely set-up on them. The Onixes are of course a joke (the second one doesn't even have rock tomb) and you can take anything else out, but it struggles to win on its own and Machamp can be a bother. Intimidate support, however, is invaluable. A-tier performance bordering on B.
Mr. Mime: Level 55 (56 after Hitmonchan). Golly gosh I wonder if you sweep with Psychic? Yeah you sweep with Psychic. S-tier performance.
Machamp: Level 54. This is a sweep! Onix is easy set-up bait so at +2, Revenge OHKOs everything but the opposing Machamp; who does a Bulk Up of his own and makes your Revenge only 2HKO. Depending on what he does afterwards this could potentially mean you lose, and Onix is the only real set-up bait here. A-tier performance though, this is very impressive all things considered.
Charizard: Level 54 (55 after Gengar 2). Awesome! Sunny Day lets you OHKO Gengar 1, Golbat and Haunter with Flamethrower while Arbok falls to Fire Blast (Flamethrower just misses out on an OHKO), all outsped. Gengar outspeeds you, but is either 2HKOed by Flamethrower or OHKOed by Sunny Fire Blast as its Sludge Bombs don't do much to you without a crit or prior damage. The only flaw here is Sunny Day running out at the last Pokémon... but that's Haunter, who it outsped and OHKOed by non-sunny Flamethrower. S-tier performance, this was more or less a sweep!
Gyarados: Level 54. This is possibly its worst matchup in the game at the time of writing this. Hydro Pump 2HKOes Gengar 1 and Golbat can be 2HKOed by +1 Return, but ultimately you just fall to excess damage or toxic or anything else. Arbok and Haunter aren't particularly hard to take down with Surf either, but the final Gengar outspeeds you and you more than likely won't be getting much done here. B-tier performance at best.
Mr. Mime: Level 56 (57 after Arbok). Surprise surprise, Calm Mind sweep! At just +1 even Psybeam OHKOes everything but Arbok and Gengar 2 (who are outsped and OHKOed by Psychic anyway). Gengar 1 could potentially mess you up early with confuse ray or evasion but, yeah, this thing's broken. S-tier performance.
Machamp: Level 54. Gengar decides to be nice and Toxic you so with Guts you 2HKO it with Rock Slide (as long as you hit through Double Team) and OHKO Golbat and Haunter, but by that point you've taken on too much damage for Arbok and Gengar 2. If you decide to bring Machamp out later against them, Arbok prevents your set-up with Screech and Gengar is too much to break through between luck and only having Rock Slide as an option. B-tier performance as the early sweep is surprising enough, but it can't take care of what's actually important.
Gyarados: Level 54. This is possibly its worst matchup in the game at the time of writing this. Hydro Pump 2HKOes Gengar 1 and Golbat can be 2HKOed by +1 Return, but ultimately you just fall to excess damage or toxic or anything else. Arbok and Haunter aren't particularly hard to take down with Surf either, but the final Gengar outspeeds you and you more than likely won't be getting much done here. B-tier performance at best.
Mr. Mime: Level 56 (57 after Arbok). Surprise surprise, Calm Mind sweep! At just +1 even Psybeam OHKOes everything but Arbok and Gengar 2 (who are outsped and OHKOed by Psychic anyway). Gengar 1 could potentially mess you up early with confuse ray or evasion but, yeah, this thing's broken. S-tier performance.
Machamp: Level 54. Gengar decides to be nice and Toxic you so with Guts you 2HKO it with Rock Slide (as long as you hit through Double Team) and OHKO Golbat and Haunter, but by that point you've taken on too much damage for Arbok and Gengar 2. If you decide to bring Machamp out later against them, Arbok prevents your set-up with Screech and Gengar is too much to break through between luck and only having Rock Slide as an option. B-tier performance as the early sweep is surprising enough, but it can't take care of what's actually important.
Charizard: Level 54. Gyarados you can 4HKO with Dragon Claw but not much else and Aerodactyl is a complete wash. Past that, Dragon Claw easily 2HKOes both Dragonair, and could potentially 3HKO Dragonite... but it just outdamages you. C-tier performance bordering on B; can easily take out both Dragonair but nothing else.
Gyarados: Level 54. Lance's Gyara can't do anything to you so you can set up a lot of Dragon Dances and quickly 2HKO Gyara with Return here, but Aerodactyl who comes out immediately after can't be OHKOed by even Hydro Pump so you can't use this to sweep. If you have those dealth with however, either Dragonair is very easy to Dragon Dance against -- and at +4 Return OHKOs both Dragonair and 2HKOs Dragonite, whose Outrage doesn't do much to you. In addition, a very notable support role here is that Intimidate allows it to come in and 2HKO Aerodactyl which can otherwise be a very problematic enemy for many teams. I'm going to say an A-tier performance bordering on B as it can get off a mini-sweep, or take down Aerodactyl or Gyarados for the team; but cannot do all of those.
Mr. Mime: Level 57 (58 after Gyarados). Well, the good times had to stop somewhere. Gyarados is tricky to set up on -- Bite does nothing after even one Calm Mind but it's liable to use Hyper Beam too which can bring you down to a sliver. Thunderbolt however can KO it even without boosting, after which Aerodactyl outspeeds you but it should be fine if it doesn't use Hyper Beam; though +1 T-Bolt is only a range OHKO. Both Dragonair have Hyper Beam but are otherwise fantastic set-up opportunities so +3 Psychic easily deals with them, and Dragonite just misses out on an OHKO... but it likes setting up Safeguard, so you can deal with it too. This looks kind of bad, but ultimately Mr. Mime is able to deal with the entire team aside from Aerodactyl; if you've got good support for that then it's a sweep. A-tier performance.
Machamp: Level 54 (55 after Dragonair 1). Tricky, but better than you might think! Dragon Rage makes Gyarados a bit scary to set up on, but it's possible to lay down a couple Bulk Ups and from there you're able to Rock Slide it down and take little from most of Aerodactyl and Dragonite's arsenal. After Gyarados is down or switched out and Aerodactyl is taken care of (both 2HKOs), Dragonite's Outrage will finish you off; but add in a Hyper Potion and you can reliably take it down with two Rock Slides and Revenge the Dragonairs to death. This one requires support but ultimately you can have a sweeper on your hands here. B-tier performance.
Gyarados: Level 54. Lance's Gyara can't do anything to you so you can set up a lot of Dragon Dances and quickly 2HKO Gyara with Return here, but Aerodactyl who comes out immediately after can't be OHKOed by even Hydro Pump so you can't use this to sweep. If you have those dealth with however, either Dragonair is very easy to Dragon Dance against -- and at +4 Return OHKOs both Dragonair and 2HKOs Dragonite, whose Outrage doesn't do much to you. In addition, a very notable support role here is that Intimidate allows it to come in and 2HKO Aerodactyl which can otherwise be a very problematic enemy for many teams. I'm going to say an A-tier performance bordering on B as it can get off a mini-sweep, or take down Aerodactyl or Gyarados for the team; but cannot do all of those.
Mr. Mime: Level 57 (58 after Gyarados). Well, the good times had to stop somewhere. Gyarados is tricky to set up on -- Bite does nothing after even one Calm Mind but it's liable to use Hyper Beam too which can bring you down to a sliver. Thunderbolt however can KO it even without boosting, after which Aerodactyl outspeeds you but it should be fine if it doesn't use Hyper Beam; though +1 T-Bolt is only a range OHKO. Both Dragonair have Hyper Beam but are otherwise fantastic set-up opportunities so +3 Psychic easily deals with them, and Dragonite just misses out on an OHKO... but it likes setting up Safeguard, so you can deal with it too. This looks kind of bad, but ultimately Mr. Mime is able to deal with the entire team aside from Aerodactyl; if you've got good support for that then it's a sweep. A-tier performance.
Machamp: Level 54 (55 after Dragonair 1). Tricky, but better than you might think! Dragon Rage makes Gyarados a bit scary to set up on, but it's possible to lay down a couple Bulk Ups and from there you're able to Rock Slide it down and take little from most of Aerodactyl and Dragonite's arsenal. After Gyarados is down or switched out and Aerodactyl is taken care of (both 2HKOs), Dragonite's Outrage will finish you off; but add in a Hyper Potion and you can reliably take it down with two Rock Slides and Revenge the Dragonairs to death. This one requires support but ultimately you can have a sweeper on your hands here. B-tier performance.
Charizard: Level 54. Sunny Day allows you to OHKO Pidgeot with Fire Blast or 2HKO with Flamethrower, and in fact that also 2HKOes Rhydon (but you'll probably just die to it). Blastoise is as much of a struggle as before and Arcanine you can't do much to either. Exeggutor you naturally destroy (but it can actually outspeed you in sun), and Alakazam takes a chunk out of you with Psychic but is actually an OHKO with Sunny Flamethrower. This is surprisingly competent all things considered as you take out half the team, including arguably the biggest threat in Alakazam -- but Arcanine and Blastoise are the other big things to worry about and you can't do much to them. I'm going to say B-rank performance bordering on A.
Gyarados: Level 54. This is actually a sweep. Pidgeot only sets up one Featherdance at the start of the battle, allowing you to set up enough Dragon Dances to get to +2 -- from which you OHKO Pidgeot and Alakazam with Return, Rhydon with Surf, 2HKO Arcanine with Surf and Exeggutor with Return, and can possibly 3HKO Blastoise with Return though it is likely to take you down first. As notable support, Surf just manages to 2HKO Arcanine which is pretty great given its bulk. As this is a potential sweep, I consider this an A-tier performance.
Mr. Mime: Level 59. Pidgeot exists to be anti-set-up with all its debuffs, so doing that just isn't easy. If you do get off a Calm Mind then you can OHKO it and 2HKO Arcanine with heavy damage, if you're lucky to hit through sand attack. If we don't take into account set-up? Thunderbolt 2HKOes Pidgeot and Psychic 2HKOes Rhydon. Blastoise you can then use as set-up bait, as after two Calm Minds even rain-boosted Hydro Pumps don't do much to you -- so you get to +4, OHKO with Thunderbolt, and can then go on to 2HKO Alakazam and possibly Exeggutor with Psychic. This is in fact the worst Champion Mr. Mime could hope to face, as I'm sure it would make short work of Venusaur and Gyarados while not having a hard time with Charizard. This is a hard one to judge as it can be worn down, Arcanine makes short work of it and Pidgeot denies it set-up chances; but ultimately it's still able to pull so much work in this fight and you can find set-up opportunities on Blastoise and Alakazam. I'm going to say A-tier performance.
Machamp: Level 54. Once again, Pidgeot's Featherdance means you lose to it. Rhydon you can deal with handily, but Alakazam of course instantly takes you out; Blastoise and Arcanine eventually beat you and Exeggutor you can beat but it's likely to wear you down. This is pretty dire -- ultimately a D-tier performance, easily its worst showing in the game. Shame it had to go like this.
Gyarados: Level 54. This is actually a sweep. Pidgeot only sets up one Featherdance at the start of the battle, allowing you to set up enough Dragon Dances to get to +2 -- from which you OHKO Pidgeot and Alakazam with Return, Rhydon with Surf, 2HKO Arcanine with Surf and Exeggutor with Return, and can possibly 3HKO Blastoise with Return though it is likely to take you down first. As notable support, Surf just manages to 2HKO Arcanine which is pretty great given its bulk. As this is a potential sweep, I consider this an A-tier performance.
Mr. Mime: Level 59. Pidgeot exists to be anti-set-up with all its debuffs, so doing that just isn't easy. If you do get off a Calm Mind then you can OHKO it and 2HKO Arcanine with heavy damage, if you're lucky to hit through sand attack. If we don't take into account set-up? Thunderbolt 2HKOes Pidgeot and Psychic 2HKOes Rhydon. Blastoise you can then use as set-up bait, as after two Calm Minds even rain-boosted Hydro Pumps don't do much to you -- so you get to +4, OHKO with Thunderbolt, and can then go on to 2HKO Alakazam and possibly Exeggutor with Psychic. This is in fact the worst Champion Mr. Mime could hope to face, as I'm sure it would make short work of Venusaur and Gyarados while not having a hard time with Charizard. This is a hard one to judge as it can be worn down, Arcanine makes short work of it and Pidgeot denies it set-up chances; but ultimately it's still able to pull so much work in this fight and you can find set-up opportunities on Blastoise and Alakazam. I'm going to say A-tier performance.
Machamp: Level 54. Once again, Pidgeot's Featherdance means you lose to it. Rhydon you can deal with handily, but Alakazam of course instantly takes you out; Blastoise and Arcanine eventually beat you and Exeggutor you can beat but it's likely to wear you down. This is pretty dire -- ultimately a D-tier performance, easily its worst showing in the game. Shame it had to go like this.
So after all this, where does this put my rank opinions? Where do we start?
Well, how about the easiest one. Mr. Mime is S-rank and I must have been crazy to think otherwise. This is easily one of the most broken Pokémon in the game; not just acting like Alakazam, but honestly? Between boosted exp and access to Thunderbolt I would argue it's better than even that! A few very minor matchups niggles aside the only real 'flaws' here were the occasional PP conservation and a bit of obedience trouble just before Misty and Erika. Otherwise this thing just breaks everything, except the things it can't break, in which case it just uses Calm Mind and breaks anyway. One of the most S-tier things I've ever seen. Hell, if you want any more of an argument? You might notice that my levels during the league were very lopsided; only Mr. Mime was gaining levels. This is because I was doing multiple fights with each member to test all the variables, and ultimately to save healing/restoration items I decided to have Mr. Mime win each fight in my 'last' test. This essentially means Mr. Mime solo'd the entire league in real terms. This stupid little mime is made of destruction.
Machamp is going down to B-rank, and I would be considering lower if some of its league performances didn't surprise me so much. Champion was disappointing, but it aced Lorelei and Bruno while doing way better against Agatha and Lance than it had any right to. Otherwise, though...? VERY lopsided. Even despite its very early final evo power boost it struggles with a lot of matchups between a lot of Pokémon being geared against fighting-types (so many poisons and psychics), and it just being so darn slow. Bulk Up really saves a lot of its later performances but it's just not the solid, reliable tank I remember it being.
Gyarados is going up to B-rank and if I didn't know better I would suggest A. I am actually a little conflicted here -- you saw in these logs just how many important battles it seriously comes through on. Early-game fights are naturally a wash with how powerful it is, but even when I got to the later stages of the game and I thought it'd drop off... no, this thing just kept going! Everywhere says it has 60 base Special Attack but I don't really think it cares that that's a fact as it's very content to destroy everything with Surf anyway! And even when it isn't that powerful? You can't underestimate its bulk. THIS is what carried it through: Gyarados has so much special defence backed up by a very respectable HP and Defence that carries it through fights you otherwise wouldn't expect it to win and late-game Dragon Dance set-ups to levels of boosts you wouldn't think would be possible. I can't really bring to myself to put a Magikarp you have to raise from 5 to 20 anywhere above B, but once you get past that there's scarcely a bad point in its career. I could seriously see arguments for A and I can definitely say it was the best non-mime Pokémon on the team.
Charizard will probably stay in A, but I have to admit I'm quite conflicted. Its transition period between Surge and Flamethrower is very rocky for sure; I don't think it's as bad as people say but it definitely lets it down at key moments, such as Erika not being as easy as she should have been for a fire-type starter. The moment it does get Flamethrower though it all snowballs from there and becomes one of the most reliable Pokémon you could come across; easily the best fire-type in the game in my opinions and one who isn't lacking in power later with Sunny Day proving time and time again a beyond reliable strategy, even if I am still sad about Solarbeam not being a thing. Let's say... I still consider it A for now, but am much more sympathetic towards the argument for B. Its worst moments are a lot rougher than they should be, but ultimately it comes into its own so much the later in the game you get.[/hide]
Cool run thank you! Glad to see that most of Mr. Mimes logs are just "use calm mind, sweep with psychic/tbolt." So I would agree with S tier based on those. Interesting that you say magikarp phase is awful enough to hold Gyarados back from A, I'll have to try one myself considering it trashed a majority of the fights in the game. Also very glad to see sunny day worked out for Charizard (even if no solarbeam
), I'm gonna have to start using weather more in casual runs seeing how ridiculously good it's been for Omastar and Charizard so far. Definitely not surprised about Machamp dropping, sadly Kanto just hates fighting types. I'm assuming this means Machoke is automatically going to C or lower, or should that be tested first? Anyways good post, thank you!I did actually forget to say, yeah; I think I'll also be dropping Machoke to C as well. Something that really saves a lot of fights for Machamp is its bulk -- 90/80/85 allows it to survive a lot, and Machoke instead having 80/70/60... yeah, that's gonna impact a lot of its matchups. To not even mention having slightly lower speed and its Attack being 100 instead of 130. Would definitely prefer it be tested but I think it's pretty predictable that it'll be way worse.
Sunny Day/Rain Dance is SUPER interesting to me because it's essentially a +1 boost to your STAB with a couple other effects thrown on and I'm interested to see how much it helps other 'mon. A key aspect of it for Charizard is that Charizard is naturally very fast; it at one point outsped Sabrina's Kadabra and Alakazam, for instance -- so Rain Dance Blastoise for example may not see the same success. Should be interesting to see for others though; Starmie and Arcanine come to mind!
I should probably post instead of sitting in front of Sabrina for 4 days huh? Mid game went well, turns out when you aren't using onix bottom tier mons everything goes a lot smoother. Anyway, here are the logs!
This thing is a beast, before late game it's either swept or contributed a lot in every single fight that isn't Brock. Frankly I would say A, maybe S tier so far thanks to it's dominance. Sadly elite 4 is absolutely going to pull it down due to everything having higher bulk and stronger attacks, but I'm very happy with it's performance so far. And who knows, maybe stab double edge is good enough to demolish the elite 4 regardless.
First off, ignore any comments about the trade Nidoqueen being meh due to a -attack nature. I only just found this out but there's another trade for a Nidorina on the route 11 gate, available at the same time as the Ms. Nido, with a +attack -defense nature instead. That one is definitely the better choice, probably not enough to change a tier placement but worth noting regardless. Onto her performance so far, it's been quite solid despite the nature. Learning pretty much every good move except psychic paired with great bulk mean this mon can beat almost anything that isn't hitting it with sleep or a super effective stab. Been very much a B tier mon instead of A so far, mostly due to being very competent but has a few bad matchups and is slightly slow at sweeping due to low attacking stats. Looking forward to how the elite 4 goes.
Very solid pick so far, I expected worse but only one truly bad matchup in Koga is quite nice. The curse that is being fighting type will probably catch up eventually, but if it can keep this string of nice performances up there might be hope for remaining in A tier yet. Bulk up is of course helping with that goal, I imagine it will make some fights like Bruno and the champion go from meh to good, but time will tell on that front.
Been going about how you would expect so far. Ridiculous defense allows it to beat basically any physical attacker that doesn't carry random status/special moves, and stab surf is as useful as ever. Getting stab on the other half of the surf/ice beam combo should serve it well despite having lower special attack than the average water. C seems harsh so far considering the good matchups and that catching a Shellder is not very difficult, just a slight detour. Obviously that may change depending on performances later on however.
The only steel type in Kanto has been putting in a nice amount of work the few fights I've had it so far. The biggest issues it faces are coming post Koga and having a movepool that makes me cry electric tears. Past those however it has a very good list of resistances and high special attack to smoke many neutral targets. B seems quite justified so far but we'll see if late game doesn't change my opinion on that.
Team, Fearow lvl 31, Nidoqueen lvl 29, Hitmonlee lvl 29
Hitmonlee. Considering this is basically a poison gym in disguise Lee does quite well here. Brick break + Mega kick 2hkos Victreebel, worst it does is use acid for about a 3hko on you. Tangela isn't a threat and gets 2hkod by brick break, might use giga drain to chip you but you'll live and it usually just uses ingrain. Vileplume is a bad matchup, but you can win with luck. If Victreebel poisons you it can't put you to sleep, and if Tangela doesn't attack then you have enough HP to 2hko with mega kick, assuming you hit both times. Pretty good matchup, consistently beats 2 mons and at least has a chance to beat all 3.
Fearow. Sweeps, although not as simple as you might think. Ohko Victreebel with fly. For Tangela, use leer until it poisons you (generally turn 2) then Ohko it with secret power. This is so Vileplume can't sleep/paralyze you, although you could also just use a full heal. Vileplume is always a 2hko, so use secret power then fly to avoid a potion. Very good matchup, only luck needed is fly having 95% accuracy for some reason.
Nidoqueen. Note that I didn't have the money for ice beam yet, and I had used aerial ace on Fearow even though in hindsight I shouldn't have. I imagine this matchup is far better with either of those, especially ice beam. Victreebel is technically a 4hko, but it heals with giga drain and potions so it's more like an 8hko. Add on paralysis and it's unlikely you even beat Victreebel since it 5hkos you. I beat it once with a crit, but lost to Tangela since it's giga drain is about the same power as Vic's. Tested vs only Vileplume, it takes less from body slam than Vic and does about the same damage. Bad matchup, it can beat Tangela if you don't fight anything else with it but that's it.
Hitmonlee. Considering this is basically a poison gym in disguise Lee does quite well here. Brick break + Mega kick 2hkos Victreebel, worst it does is use acid for about a 3hko on you. Tangela isn't a threat and gets 2hkod by brick break, might use giga drain to chip you but you'll live and it usually just uses ingrain. Vileplume is a bad matchup, but you can win with luck. If Victreebel poisons you it can't put you to sleep, and if Tangela doesn't attack then you have enough HP to 2hko with mega kick, assuming you hit both times. Pretty good matchup, consistently beats 2 mons and at least has a chance to beat all 3.
Fearow. Sweeps, although not as simple as you might think. Ohko Victreebel with fly. For Tangela, use leer until it poisons you (generally turn 2) then Ohko it with secret power. This is so Vileplume can't sleep/paralyze you, although you could also just use a full heal. Vileplume is always a 2hko, so use secret power then fly to avoid a potion. Very good matchup, only luck needed is fly having 95% accuracy for some reason.
Nidoqueen. Note that I didn't have the money for ice beam yet, and I had used aerial ace on Fearow even though in hindsight I shouldn't have. I imagine this matchup is far better with either of those, especially ice beam. Victreebel is technically a 4hko, but it heals with giga drain and potions so it's more like an 8hko. Add on paralysis and it's unlikely you even beat Victreebel since it 5hkos you. I beat it once with a crit, but lost to Tangela since it's giga drain is about the same power as Vic's. Tested vs only Vileplume, it takes less from body slam than Vic and does about the same damage. Bad matchup, it can beat Tangela if you don't fight anything else with it but that's it.
Team, Fearow lvl 31, Nidoqueen lvl 31, Hitmonlee lvl 31
Hitmonlee. Outspeed everything and get 3 ohkos with brick break, a move that can't miss. Technically you have a chance to not Ohko Kangaskhan, but you live mega punch from full and Giovanni doesn't heal. Literally a perfect matchup.
Nidoqueen. Both Onix and Rhyhorn are 2hkos with dig, neither come close to doing any significant damage to you. Kangaskhan is a 3hko with brick break, even if it spams mega punch you only get 3hkod and outspeed, so you always win. Very good matchup here.
Fearow. Should lose here, but Giovanni must not have a brain because you do quite well. 4hko Onix with blackglasses pursuit, Onix used rock throw all of twice in 5+ attempts against him for some reason, and it was only about a 3hko when he did use it. Rhyhorn is also a 4hko and it doesn't even have a rock move to threaten you with. Kangaskhan only uses mega punch when you're at low health, so you won't beat it after the rocks without items. If you're at full health you can win since Kanga just spams bite and tail whip while you 4hko with secret power. Bad matchup in theory, but has a fairly solid performance thanks to bad AI.
Hitmonlee. Outspeed everything and get 3 ohkos with brick break, a move that can't miss. Technically you have a chance to not Ohko Kangaskhan, but you live mega punch from full and Giovanni doesn't heal. Literally a perfect matchup.
Nidoqueen. Both Onix and Rhyhorn are 2hkos with dig, neither come close to doing any significant damage to you. Kangaskhan is a 3hko with brick break, even if it spams mega punch you only get 3hkod and outspeed, so you always win. Very good matchup here.
Fearow. Should lose here, but Giovanni must not have a brain because you do quite well. 4hko Onix with blackglasses pursuit, Onix used rock throw all of twice in 5+ attempts against him for some reason, and it was only about a 3hko when he did use it. Rhyhorn is also a 4hko and it doesn't even have a rock move to threaten you with. Kangaskhan only uses mega punch when you're at low health, so you won't beat it after the rocks without items. If you're at full health you can win since Kanga just spams bite and tail whip while you 4hko with secret power. Bad matchup in theory, but has a fairly solid performance thanks to bad AI.
Team, Fearow lvl 38, Nidoqueen lvl 39, Hitmonlee lvl 38, Cloyster lvl 38
Hitmonlee. Can do well in this fight but requires luck on it's side. Mega kick leaves Koffing in red, so you need to 2hko with brick break + mega kick. Koffing is very annoying since it can smokescreen, toxic, or just explode and Ohko you. Muk is technically a good matchup, you outspeed and 2hko and sludge 2hkos you. In practice if you miss a single mega kick or if it uses acid armor you won't beat it, so it's unreliable but possible. The second Koffing is exactly the same as the first, only sludge might KO you now due to poison damage. Only got to Weezing twice, one time I missed and died to sludge, the other time I didn't have any mega kick PP left so I couldn't scratch it. Weird matchup, technically you can beat 3/4 mons, but you also might just lose to a Koffing. I'll call it a bad performance overall because of the luck needed.
Fearow. 2hkos Koffing with Fly, only toxic is significant as it means you won't beat the second Koffing. Return 2hkos Muk unless it uses acid armor, but it almost always uses minimize. Koffing #2 is doable as long as you weren't hit by toxic turn 1. Weezing is a 3hko and it 3hkos back, so you lose due to poison, items and accuracy being against you. Solid matchup since it reliably beats everything up to Weezing.
Nidoqueen. Considering literally nothing can hurt you other than a Koffing selfdestruct, the only question is how fast is the sweep. Surf 2hkos Koffing, they tend to not explode turn 1 and just use smokescreen or sludge. If it does explode you live with about 55 HP. Dig 2hkos Muk, but it may be interupted due to minimize and acid armor spam. Even with that sludge only does 6 damage so you win with surf unless you get horribly unlucky. Second Koffing, same 2hko as the first. Weezing can't hurt you and gets 3hkod by surf. Very good matchup, bulk and typing mean we get a fight with Koga that isn't crazy luck dependant for once.
Cloyster. Surprised by surf Ohkoing Koffing, so it isn't a threat. Muk is a 3hko, but you tank sludge thanks to Cloyster's sky high defense so you can handle missing a few surfs. Koffing #2 is the same as the first. Weezing is a 2hko and it doesn't do much with sludge, so you beat it unless Muk poisoned you early. Very good matchup, consistent sweep in a fight usually loaded with rng.
Hitmonlee. Can do well in this fight but requires luck on it's side. Mega kick leaves Koffing in red, so you need to 2hko with brick break + mega kick. Koffing is very annoying since it can smokescreen, toxic, or just explode and Ohko you. Muk is technically a good matchup, you outspeed and 2hko and sludge 2hkos you. In practice if you miss a single mega kick or if it uses acid armor you won't beat it, so it's unreliable but possible. The second Koffing is exactly the same as the first, only sludge might KO you now due to poison damage. Only got to Weezing twice, one time I missed and died to sludge, the other time I didn't have any mega kick PP left so I couldn't scratch it. Weird matchup, technically you can beat 3/4 mons, but you also might just lose to a Koffing. I'll call it a bad performance overall because of the luck needed.
Fearow. 2hkos Koffing with Fly, only toxic is significant as it means you won't beat the second Koffing. Return 2hkos Muk unless it uses acid armor, but it almost always uses minimize. Koffing #2 is doable as long as you weren't hit by toxic turn 1. Weezing is a 3hko and it 3hkos back, so you lose due to poison, items and accuracy being against you. Solid matchup since it reliably beats everything up to Weezing.
Nidoqueen. Considering literally nothing can hurt you other than a Koffing selfdestruct, the only question is how fast is the sweep. Surf 2hkos Koffing, they tend to not explode turn 1 and just use smokescreen or sludge. If it does explode you live with about 55 HP. Dig 2hkos Muk, but it may be interupted due to minimize and acid armor spam. Even with that sludge only does 6 damage so you win with surf unless you get horribly unlucky. Second Koffing, same 2hko as the first. Weezing can't hurt you and gets 3hkod by surf. Very good matchup, bulk and typing mean we get a fight with Koga that isn't crazy luck dependant for once.
Cloyster. Surprised by surf Ohkoing Koffing, so it isn't a threat. Muk is a 3hko, but you tank sludge thanks to Cloyster's sky high defense so you can handle missing a few surfs. Koffing #2 is the same as the first. Weezing is a 2hko and it doesn't do much with sludge, so you beat it unless Muk poisoned you early. Very good matchup, consistent sweep in a fight usually loaded with rng.
Team, Fearow lvl 39 (40 after Growlithe), Hitmonlee lvl 39, Cloyster lvl 39, Magneton lvl 39, Nidoqueen lvl 40
Fearow. 2hko Pidgeot with return, he almost always goes for wing attack but it does like a 6hko worth of damage. Gyarados is a 3hko after intimidate, worst it can do is dragon rage but with leftovers you should live every hit for the rest of the fight regardless. Sack the HM slave vs Growlithe to remove intimidate, then Ohko with Return. Alakazam is outsped and Ohkod by return so no future sight chip. Venusaur is barely not an Ohko with drill peck, but it very often goes for a weak razor leaf so you win. Excellent matchup, pretty clean sweep because stab return OP.
Hitmonlee. You 2hko Pidgeot with rock slide, but if it uses wing attack then you die to the quick attack right afterwards so it's unreliable. You can set up safely on Zam or Growlithe, use 4 bulk ups with leftovers to shrug off attacks, proceed to outspeed and Ohko everything else on the rivals team. Only catch is missing mega kick for Venusaur but it tends to use razor leaf which you can easily live and try again. Very good matchup, bad vs Pidgeot but bulk up allows for a sweep vs the rest of his team.
Cloyster. Usually you'll have ice beam by this point, but I had two mons that needed a game corner TM more and couldn't afford it afterwards. Onto the fight, Pidgeot is a 2hko but barely scratches you in return. Venusaur comes in next and it outspeeds and Ohkos you, so avoid that one. Gyarados is a 4hko with aurora beam while dragon rage 3hkos and it outspeeds. You can technically beat it because the AI was dropped on it's motherboard as a child and sometimes goes for leer despite having no physical moves. Growlithe is outsped and Ohkod by surf and Alakazam can't hurt you while it get's 2hkod. Good matchup, sweep is impossible but beats 3/5 mons very reliably
Magneton. Thunderbolt Ohkos Pidgeot who can't hurt you despite outspeeding. Growlithe comes in but you outspeed and Ohko it. Gyarados is obviously an Ohko, the only move that does significant damage is dragon rage. You beat Alakazam with a 2hko because future sight is bad. Can't beat Venusaur due to sleep powder and taking big damage from future sight, at least you annoy it with paralysis before going down. Very good matchup, clean sweep on 4/5 mons.
Nidoqueen. Worth noting that Nidoqueen could have roughly a million different moves for this fight depending on what TMs you want to give it, I had thunderbolt/surf/bite/dig and held leftovers. Pidgeot is a 2hko with thunderbolt, it only does 20 damage with wing attack so easily healed with lefties. Alakazam is next, 2hko with bite or 3hko if it uses calm mind. Gyarados and Growlithe are both Ohkos with thunderbolt/surf respectively. Venusaur only 6hkos with razor leaf, but between bite being about an 8hko, sleep powder and razor leaf's crit rate it's very unlikely you beat it. Quite a solid matchup, insane coverage really shows in this fight since the one threat I had can be bypassed with the ice beam TM.
Fearow. 2hko Pidgeot with return, he almost always goes for wing attack but it does like a 6hko worth of damage. Gyarados is a 3hko after intimidate, worst it can do is dragon rage but with leftovers you should live every hit for the rest of the fight regardless. Sack the HM slave vs Growlithe to remove intimidate, then Ohko with Return. Alakazam is outsped and Ohkod by return so no future sight chip. Venusaur is barely not an Ohko with drill peck, but it very often goes for a weak razor leaf so you win. Excellent matchup, pretty clean sweep because stab return OP.
Hitmonlee. You 2hko Pidgeot with rock slide, but if it uses wing attack then you die to the quick attack right afterwards so it's unreliable. You can set up safely on Zam or Growlithe, use 4 bulk ups with leftovers to shrug off attacks, proceed to outspeed and Ohko everything else on the rivals team. Only catch is missing mega kick for Venusaur but it tends to use razor leaf which you can easily live and try again. Very good matchup, bad vs Pidgeot but bulk up allows for a sweep vs the rest of his team.
Cloyster. Usually you'll have ice beam by this point, but I had two mons that needed a game corner TM more and couldn't afford it afterwards. Onto the fight, Pidgeot is a 2hko but barely scratches you in return. Venusaur comes in next and it outspeeds and Ohkos you, so avoid that one. Gyarados is a 4hko with aurora beam while dragon rage 3hkos and it outspeeds. You can technically beat it because the AI was dropped on it's motherboard as a child and sometimes goes for leer despite having no physical moves. Growlithe is outsped and Ohkod by surf and Alakazam can't hurt you while it get's 2hkod. Good matchup, sweep is impossible but beats 3/5 mons very reliably
Magneton. Thunderbolt Ohkos Pidgeot who can't hurt you despite outspeeding. Growlithe comes in but you outspeed and Ohko it. Gyarados is obviously an Ohko, the only move that does significant damage is dragon rage. You beat Alakazam with a 2hko because future sight is bad. Can't beat Venusaur due to sleep powder and taking big damage from future sight, at least you annoy it with paralysis before going down. Very good matchup, clean sweep on 4/5 mons.
Nidoqueen. Worth noting that Nidoqueen could have roughly a million different moves for this fight depending on what TMs you want to give it, I had thunderbolt/surf/bite/dig and held leftovers. Pidgeot is a 2hko with thunderbolt, it only does 20 damage with wing attack so easily healed with lefties. Alakazam is next, 2hko with bite or 3hko if it uses calm mind. Gyarados and Growlithe are both Ohkos with thunderbolt/surf respectively. Venusaur only 6hkos with razor leaf, but between bite being about an 8hko, sleep powder and razor leaf's crit rate it's very unlikely you beat it. Quite a solid matchup, insane coverage really shows in this fight since the one threat I had can be bypassed with the ice beam TM.
Team, Fearow lvl 40, Hitmonlee lvl 39, Cloyster lvl 39, Magneton lvl 40, Nidoqueen lvl 40
Fearow. Nidorino is an Ohko with return, it can't do anything except poison point. Rhyhorn is only a 3hko with steel wing, but it hates using rock blast so it's fine. Kangaskhan is a 2hko with return, even mega punch only does about a quarter of Fearow's hp so it's a win. Nidoqueen is a 3hko but it just spams double kick which does next to nothing thanks to leftovers. Excellent matchup, clean sweep unless you get critted or poison point turn 1.
Hitmonlee. Use bulk up once vs Nidorino, fury attack only does ~5 damage per hit so not a threat. Mega kick will 2hko Nidoqueen, even body slam won't hurt you much (3/4hko) thanks to the defense boost. Kangaskhan and Rhyhorn are both outsped and Ohkod by high jump kick. Top tier matchup, only problem is mega kick accuracy but that isn't a huge deal.
Cloyster. Giovanni has no special moves so this goes how you would expect. 2hko Nidorino who can barely outdamage leftovers. Rhyhorn gets outsped and Ohkod by surf. Nidoqueen comes out and they usually just spam tail whip or try to status you with poison sting/body slam, you 2hko them with surf. Kangaskhan is last, even at -2 defense mega punch does less than half to you and surf is a 3hko. Very good matchup, a bit slow since you only Ohko one mon but a sweep is a sweep.
Magneton. Nidorino gets 2hkod by thunderbolt, it does a whopping 2 damage with fury attack in return. Kangaskhan is a 2hko, it only knows normal moves so it can't touch you. Obviously you can't hurt the ground types unless you feel like testing your luck with sonicboom + supersonic, but that's not exactly consistent. Definition of average matchup, always beats 2 mons and can't touch the other two.
Nidoqueen. Dig is sadly a 2hko on Nidorino, close to an Ohko but no dice. Kangaskhan is a 5hko with dig, less if you kept brick break. Not like it matters since dig + leftovers is OP and mega punch effectively deals 15 damage per hit lol. Rhyhorn is an Ohko with surf. Nidoqueen is 3hkod by surf, it's body slam does less than mega punch did. Most of the time it uses double kick or poison sting because Giovanni failed preschool. Very solid but slow matchup, literally can't lose thanks to poison immunity and high bulk which is nice.
Fearow. Nidorino is an Ohko with return, it can't do anything except poison point. Rhyhorn is only a 3hko with steel wing, but it hates using rock blast so it's fine. Kangaskhan is a 2hko with return, even mega punch only does about a quarter of Fearow's hp so it's a win. Nidoqueen is a 3hko but it just spams double kick which does next to nothing thanks to leftovers. Excellent matchup, clean sweep unless you get critted or poison point turn 1.
Hitmonlee. Use bulk up once vs Nidorino, fury attack only does ~5 damage per hit so not a threat. Mega kick will 2hko Nidoqueen, even body slam won't hurt you much (3/4hko) thanks to the defense boost. Kangaskhan and Rhyhorn are both outsped and Ohkod by high jump kick. Top tier matchup, only problem is mega kick accuracy but that isn't a huge deal.
Cloyster. Giovanni has no special moves so this goes how you would expect. 2hko Nidorino who can barely outdamage leftovers. Rhyhorn gets outsped and Ohkod by surf. Nidoqueen comes out and they usually just spam tail whip or try to status you with poison sting/body slam, you 2hko them with surf. Kangaskhan is last, even at -2 defense mega punch does less than half to you and surf is a 3hko. Very good matchup, a bit slow since you only Ohko one mon but a sweep is a sweep.
Magneton. Nidorino gets 2hkod by thunderbolt, it does a whopping 2 damage with fury attack in return. Kangaskhan is a 2hko, it only knows normal moves so it can't touch you. Obviously you can't hurt the ground types unless you feel like testing your luck with sonicboom + supersonic, but that's not exactly consistent. Definition of average matchup, always beats 2 mons and can't touch the other two.
Nidoqueen. Dig is sadly a 2hko on Nidorino, close to an Ohko but no dice. Kangaskhan is a 5hko with dig, less if you kept brick break. Not like it matters since dig + leftovers is OP and mega punch effectively deals 15 damage per hit lol. Rhyhorn is an Ohko with surf. Nidoqueen is 3hkod by surf, it's body slam does less than mega punch did. Most of the time it uses double kick or poison sting because Giovanni failed preschool. Very solid but slow matchup, literally can't lose thanks to poison immunity and high bulk which is nice.
Team, Fearow, Hitmonlee, Cloyster, Magneton, Nidoqueen, all lvl 40.
Fearow. Outspeed and Ohko everything with return/drill peck for Venomoth. Even if you don't Ohko Alakazam for some reason (gave return to something else maybe?) you live a psychic from full so it's not an issue. Probably should've seen this coming, but yeah literal perfect matchup.
Hitmonlee. Kadabra and Mr mime are both outsped and Ohkod with mega kick, although accuracy could be an issue. Alakazam comes in 3rd and seems fairly likely to use psychic to Ohko you, but if it doesn't you can Ohko it with mega kick. If you fight Venomoth then it's outsped and Ohkod by rock slide. Quite a good matchup thanks to Lee's speed meaning only one mon is a threat, which can be bypassed with bad AI. Although that and shaky accuracy means it's far from perfect.
Cloyster. Kadabra is Ohkod by secret power unless it uses reflect. Mr mime is outsped and 2hkod by either surf or secret power, it almost never attacks but if it does psybeam is about a 3hko. Venomoth is another 2hko with surf, you outspeed and it's psybeam does slightly less than Mr mime but still has a chance to 3hko. Alakazam is a literal coin flip, sometimes it Ohkos you with psychic, sometimes it just uses future sight twice in a row while it gets 2hkod. Very good matchup, potential sweep but always beats 3 members at least.
Magneton. Thunderbolt Ohkos Kadabra without a calm mind, 2hko with it, Kadabra outspeeds so it can chip you with future sight. Mr Mime is a 2hko and it usually just uses barrier, psybeam isn't threatening even if it does attack. Venomoth outspeeds and barely hangs on after a thunderbolt, it tends to just use supersonic since psybeam does like 10 damage. Alakazam is technically doable since you 2hko it/3hko it with calm mind, but psychic 3hkos you and Zam outspeeds so you need some good luck with future sights and not being chipped by earlier members. Solid performance, can sweep but tends to just fall short of beating Zam.
Nidoqueen. Kadabra gets 2hkod through reflect with dig, Ohkod if it does anything else. Mr Mime doesn't like to attack with psybeam although if it does you get 3hkod, it tends to use barrier which turns dig's 2hko into a 3hko, then it baton passes to Alakazam if you don't kill it fast enough. Alakazam is not happening, outspeeds and Ohkos while you only 2hko, assumming no boosts. Venomoth is a 3hko, but it's psybeam is pathetic so you can beat it reliably at least. Mediocre/bad performance, due to only beating Kadabra and Venomoth, aka the two worst mons, reliably.
Fearow. Outspeed and Ohko everything with return/drill peck for Venomoth. Even if you don't Ohko Alakazam for some reason (gave return to something else maybe?) you live a psychic from full so it's not an issue. Probably should've seen this coming, but yeah literal perfect matchup.
Hitmonlee. Kadabra and Mr mime are both outsped and Ohkod with mega kick, although accuracy could be an issue. Alakazam comes in 3rd and seems fairly likely to use psychic to Ohko you, but if it doesn't you can Ohko it with mega kick. If you fight Venomoth then it's outsped and Ohkod by rock slide. Quite a good matchup thanks to Lee's speed meaning only one mon is a threat, which can be bypassed with bad AI. Although that and shaky accuracy means it's far from perfect.
Cloyster. Kadabra is Ohkod by secret power unless it uses reflect. Mr mime is outsped and 2hkod by either surf or secret power, it almost never attacks but if it does psybeam is about a 3hko. Venomoth is another 2hko with surf, you outspeed and it's psybeam does slightly less than Mr mime but still has a chance to 3hko. Alakazam is a literal coin flip, sometimes it Ohkos you with psychic, sometimes it just uses future sight twice in a row while it gets 2hkod. Very good matchup, potential sweep but always beats 3 members at least.
Magneton. Thunderbolt Ohkos Kadabra without a calm mind, 2hko with it, Kadabra outspeeds so it can chip you with future sight. Mr Mime is a 2hko and it usually just uses barrier, psybeam isn't threatening even if it does attack. Venomoth outspeeds and barely hangs on after a thunderbolt, it tends to just use supersonic since psybeam does like 10 damage. Alakazam is technically doable since you 2hko it/3hko it with calm mind, but psychic 3hkos you and Zam outspeeds so you need some good luck with future sights and not being chipped by earlier members. Solid performance, can sweep but tends to just fall short of beating Zam.
Nidoqueen. Kadabra gets 2hkod through reflect with dig, Ohkod if it does anything else. Mr Mime doesn't like to attack with psybeam although if it does you get 3hkod, it tends to use barrier which turns dig's 2hko into a 3hko, then it baton passes to Alakazam if you don't kill it fast enough. Alakazam is not happening, outspeeds and Ohkos while you only 2hko, assumming no boosts. Venomoth is a 3hko, but it's psybeam is pathetic so you can beat it reliably at least. Mediocre/bad performance, due to only beating Kadabra and Venomoth, aka the two worst mons, reliably.
This thing is a beast, before late game it's either swept or contributed a lot in every single fight that isn't Brock. Frankly I would say A, maybe S tier so far thanks to it's dominance. Sadly elite 4 is absolutely going to pull it down due to everything having higher bulk and stronger attacks, but I'm very happy with it's performance so far. And who knows, maybe stab double edge is good enough to demolish the elite 4 regardless. First off, ignore any comments about the trade Nidoqueen being meh due to a -attack nature. I only just found this out but there's another trade for a Nidorina on the route 11 gate, available at the same time as the Ms. Nido, with a +attack -defense nature instead. That one is definitely the better choice, probably not enough to change a tier placement but worth noting regardless. Onto her performance so far, it's been quite solid despite the nature. Learning pretty much every good move except psychic paired with great bulk mean this mon can beat almost anything that isn't hitting it with sleep or a super effective stab. Been very much a B tier mon instead of A so far, mostly due to being very competent but has a few bad matchups and is slightly slow at sweeping due to low attacking stats. Looking forward to how the elite 4 goes. Very solid pick so far, I expected worse but only one truly bad matchup in Koga is quite nice. The curse that is being fighting type will probably catch up eventually, but if it can keep this string of nice performances up there might be hope for remaining in A tier yet. Bulk up is of course helping with that goal, I imagine it will make some fights like Bruno and the champion go from meh to good, but time will tell on that front. Been going about how you would expect so far. Ridiculous defense allows it to beat basically any physical attacker that doesn't carry random status/special moves, and stab surf is as useful as ever. Getting stab on the other half of the surf/ice beam combo should serve it well despite having lower special attack than the average water. C seems harsh so far considering the good matchups and that catching a Shellder is not very difficult, just a slight detour. Obviously that may change depending on performances later on however. The only steel type in Kanto has been putting in a nice amount of work the few fights I've had it so far. The biggest issues it faces are coming post Koga and having a movepool that makes me cry electric tears. Past those however it has a very good list of resistances and high special attack to smoke many neutral targets. B seems quite justified so far but we'll see if late game doesn't change my opinion on that.Awesome work as usual! Don't feel bad about a late log submission; this thread's pretty slow going for the moment anyhow and you saw how I was haha. Some really fun stuff here -- Fearow and Hitmonlee managing a sweep on Sabrina is the biggest standout, Dig/Fly with Leftovers is something really good that I hadn't considered, and Fearow winning against something with Blackglasses Pursuit is one of the funniest things I've ever heard all week! One thing I do wanna ask though: what level did you get Shellder and Magnemite, and how long did you spend grinding them? Because they were instantly on par with your team in their first logs.I should probably post instead of sitting in front of Sabrina for 4 days huh? Mid game went well, turns out when you aren't usingonixbottom tier mons everything goes a lot smoother. Anyway, here are the logs!
Team, Fearow lvl 31, Nidoqueen lvl 29, Hitmonlee lvl 29
Hitmonlee. Considering this is basically a poison gym in disguise Lee does quite well here. Brick break + Mega kick 2hkos Victreebel, worst it does is use acid for about a 3hko on you. Tangela isn't a threat and gets 2hkod by brick break, might use giga drain to chip you but you'll live and it usually just uses ingrain. Vileplume is a bad matchup, but you can win with luck. If Victreebel poisons you it can't put you to sleep, and if Tangela doesn't attack then you have enough HP to 2hko with mega kick, assuming you hit both times. Pretty good matchup, consistently beats 2 mons and at least has a chance to beat all 3.
Fearow. Sweeps, although not as simple as you might think. Ohko Victreebel with fly. For Tangela, use leer until it poisons you (generally turn 2) then Ohko it with secret power. This is so Vileplume can't sleep/paralyze you, although you could also just use a full heal. Vileplume is always a 2hko, so use secret power then fly to avoid a potion. Very good matchup, only luck needed is fly having 95% accuracy for some reason.
Nidoqueen. Note that I didn't have the money for ice beam yet, and I had used aerial ace on Fearow even though in hindsight I shouldn't have. I imagine this matchup is far better with either of those, especially ice beam. Victreebel is technically a 4hko, but it heals with giga drain and potions so it's more like an 8hko. Add on paralysis and it's unlikely you even beat Victreebel since it 5hkos you. I beat it once with a crit, but lost to Tangela since it's giga drain is about the same power as Vic's. Tested vs only Vileplume, it takes less from body slam than Vic and does about the same damage. Bad matchup, it can beat Tangela if you don't fight anything else with it but that's it.
Team, Fearow lvl 31, Nidoqueen lvl 31, Hitmonlee lvl 31
Hitmonlee. Outspeed everything and get 3 ohkos with brick break, a move that can't miss. Technically you have a chance to not Ohko Kangaskhan, but you live mega punch from full and Giovanni doesn't heal. Literally a perfect matchup.
Nidoqueen. Both Onix and Rhyhorn are 2hkos with dig, neither come close to doing any significant damage to you. Kangaskhan is a 3hko with brick break, even if it spams mega punch you only get 3hkod and outspeed, so you always win. Very good matchup here.
Fearow. Should lose here, but Giovanni must not have a brain because you do quite well. 4hko Onix with blackglasses pursuit, Onix used rock throw all of twice in 5+ attempts against him for some reason, and it was only about a 3hko when he did use it. Rhyhorn is also a 4hko and it doesn't even have a rock move to threaten you with. Kangaskhan only uses mega punch when you're at low health, so you won't beat it after the rocks without items. If you're at full health you can win since Kanga just spams bite and tail whip while you 4hko with secret power. Bad matchup in theory, but has a fairly solid performance thanks to bad AI.
Team, Fearow lvl 38, Nidoqueen lvl 39, Hitmonlee lvl 38, Cloyster lvl 38
Hitmonlee. Can do well in this fight but requires luck on it's side. Mega kick leaves Koffing in red, so you need to 2hko with brick break + mega kick. Koffing is very annoying since it can smokescreen, toxic, or just explode and Ohko you. Muk is technically a good matchup, you outspeed and 2hko and sludge 2hkos you. In practice if you miss a single mega kick or if it uses acid armor you won't beat it, so it's unreliable but possible. The second Koffing is exactly the same as the first, only sludge might KO you now due to poison damage. Only got to Weezing twice, one time I missed and died to sludge, the other time I didn't have any mega kick PP left so I couldn't scratch it. Weird matchup, technically you can beat 3/4 mons, but you also might just lose to a Koffing. I'll call it a bad performance overall because of the luck needed.
Fearow. 2hkos Koffing with Fly, only toxic is significant as it means you won't beat the second Koffing. Return 2hkos Muk unless it uses acid armor, but it almost always uses minimize. Koffing #2 is doable as long as you weren't hit by toxic turn 1. Weezing is a 3hko and it 3hkos back, so you lose due to poison, items and accuracy being against you. Solid matchup since it reliably beats everything up to Weezing.
Nidoqueen. Considering literally nothing can hurt you other than a Koffing selfdestruct, the only question is how fast is the sweep. Surf 2hkos Koffing, they tend to not explode turn 1 and just use smokescreen or sludge. If it does explode you live with about 55 HP. Dig 2hkos Muk, but it may be interupted due to minimize and acid armor spam. Even with that sludge only does 6 damage so you win with surf unless you get horribly unlucky. Second Koffing, same 2hko as the first. Weezing can't hurt you and gets 3hkod by surf. Very good matchup, bulk and typing mean we get a fight with Koga that isn't crazy luck dependant for once.
Cloyster. Surprised by surf Ohkoing Koffing, so it isn't a threat. Muk is a 3hko, but you tank sludge thanks to Cloyster's sky high defense so you can handle missing a few surfs. Koffing #2 is the same as the first. Weezing is a 2hko and it doesn't do much with sludge, so you beat it unless Muk poisoned you early. Very good matchup, consistent sweep in a fight usually loaded with rng.
Team, Fearow lvl 39 (40 after Growlithe), Hitmonlee lvl 39, Cloyster lvl 39, Magneton lvl 39, Nidoqueen lvl 40
Fearow. 2hko Pidgeot with return, he almost always goes for wing attack but it does like a 6hko worth of damage. Gyarados is a 3hko after intimidate, worst it can do is dragon rage but with leftovers you should live every hit for the rest of the fight regardless. Sack the HM slave vs Growlithe to remove intimidate, then Ohko with Return. Alakazam is outsped and Ohkod by return so no future sight chip. Venusaur is barely not an Ohko with drill peck, but it very often goes for a weak razor leaf so you win. Excellent matchup, pretty clean sweep because stab return OP.
Hitmonlee. You 2hko Pidgeot with rock slide, but if it uses wing attack then you die to the quick attack right afterwards so it's unreliable. You can set up safely on Zam or Growlithe, use 4 bulk ups with leftovers to shrug off attacks, proceed to outspeed and Ohko everything else on the rivals team. Only catch is missing mega kick for Venusaur but it tends to use razor leaf which you can easily live and try again. Very good matchup, bad vs Pidgeot but bulk up allows for a sweep vs the rest of his team.
Cloyster. Usually you'll have ice beam by this point, but I had two mons that needed a game corner TM more and couldn't afford it afterwards. Onto the fight, Pidgeot is a 2hko but barely scratches you in return. Venusaur comes in next and it outspeeds and Ohkos you, so avoid that one. Gyarados is a 4hko with aurora beam while dragon rage 3hkos and it outspeeds. You can technically beat it because the AI was dropped on it's motherboard as a child and sometimes goes for leer despite having no physical moves. Growlithe is outsped and Ohkod by surf and Alakazam can't hurt you while it get's 2hkod. Good matchup, sweep is impossible but beats 3/5 mons very reliably
Magneton. Thunderbolt Ohkos Pidgeot who can't hurt you despite outspeeding. Growlithe comes in but you outspeed and Ohko it. Gyarados is obviously an Ohko, the only move that does significant damage is dragon rage. You beat Alakazam with a 2hko because future sight is bad. Can't beat Venusaur due to sleep powder and taking big damage from future sight, at least you annoy it with paralysis before going down. Very good matchup, clean sweep on 4/5 mons.
Nidoqueen. Worth noting that Nidoqueen could have roughly a million different moves for this fight depending on what TMs you want to give it, I had thunderbolt/surf/bite/dig and held leftovers. Pidgeot is a 2hko with thunderbolt, it only does 20 damage with wing attack so easily healed with lefties. Alakazam is next, 2hko with bite or 3hko if it uses calm mind. Gyarados and Growlithe are both Ohkos with thunderbolt/surf respectively. Venusaur only 6hkos with razor leaf, but between bite being about an 8hko, sleep powder and razor leaf's crit rate it's very unlikely you beat it. Quite a solid matchup, insane coverage really shows in this fight since the one threat I had can be bypassed with the ice beam TM.
Team, Fearow lvl 40, Hitmonlee lvl 39, Cloyster lvl 39, Magneton lvl 40, Nidoqueen lvl 40
Fearow. Nidorino is an Ohko with return, it can't do anything except poison point. Rhyhorn is only a 3hko with steel wing, but it hates using rock blast so it's fine. Kangaskhan is a 2hko with return, even mega punch only does about a quarter of Fearow's hp so it's a win. Nidoqueen is a 3hko but it just spams double kick which does next to nothing thanks to leftovers. Excellent matchup, clean sweep unless you get critted or poison point turn 1.
Hitmonlee. Use bulk up once vs Nidorino, fury attack only does ~5 damage per hit so not a threat. Mega kick will 2hko Nidoqueen, even body slam won't hurt you much (3/4hko) thanks to the defense boost. Kangaskhan and Rhyhorn are both outsped and Ohkod by high jump kick. Top tier matchup, only problem is mega kick accuracy but that isn't a huge deal.
Cloyster. Giovanni has no special moves so this goes how you would expect. 2hko Nidorino who can barely outdamage leftovers. Rhyhorn gets outsped and Ohkod by surf. Nidoqueen comes out and they usually just spam tail whip or try to status you with poison sting/body slam, you 2hko them with surf. Kangaskhan is last, even at -2 defense mega punch does less than half to you and surf is a 3hko. Very good matchup, a bit slow since you only Ohko one mon but a sweep is a sweep.
Magneton. Nidorino gets 2hkod by thunderbolt, it does a whopping 2 damage with fury attack in return. Kangaskhan is a 2hko, it only knows normal moves so it can't touch you. Obviously you can't hurt the ground types unless you feel like testing your luck with sonicboom + supersonic, but that's not exactly consistent. Definition of average matchup, always beats 2 mons and can't touch the other two.
Nidoqueen. Dig is sadly a 2hko on Nidorino, close to an Ohko but no dice. Kangaskhan is a 5hko with dig, less if you kept brick break. Not like it matters since dig + leftovers is OP and mega punch effectively deals 15 damage per hit lol. Rhyhorn is an Ohko with surf. Nidoqueen is 3hkod by surf, it's body slam does less than mega punch did. Most of the time it uses double kick or poison sting because Giovanni failed preschool. Very solid but slow matchup, literally can't lose thanks to poison immunity and high bulk which is nice.
Team, Fearow, Hitmonlee, Cloyster, Magneton, Nidoqueen, all lvl 40.
Fearow. Outspeed and Ohko everything with return/drill peck for Venomoth. Even if you don't Ohko Alakazam for some reason (gave return to something else maybe?) you live a psychic from full so it's not an issue. Probably should've seen this coming, but yeah literal perfect matchup.
Hitmonlee. Kadabra and Mr mime are both outsped and Ohkod with mega kick, although accuracy could be an issue. Alakazam comes in 3rd and seems fairly likely to use psychic to Ohko you, but if it doesn't you can Ohko it with mega kick. If you fight Venomoth then it's outsped and Ohkod by rock slide. Quite a good matchup thanks to Lee's speed meaning only one mon is a threat, which can be bypassed with bad AI. Although that and shaky accuracy means it's far from perfect.
Cloyster. Kadabra is Ohkod by secret power unless it uses reflect. Mr mime is outsped and 2hkod by either surf or secret power, it almost never attacks but if it does psybeam is about a 3hko. Venomoth is another 2hko with surf, you outspeed and it's psybeam does slightly less than Mr mime but still has a chance to 3hko. Alakazam is a literal coin flip, sometimes it Ohkos you with psychic, sometimes it just uses future sight twice in a row while it gets 2hkod. Very good matchup, potential sweep but always beats 3 members at least.
Magneton. Thunderbolt Ohkos Kadabra without a calm mind, 2hko with it, Kadabra outspeeds so it can chip you with future sight. Mr Mime is a 2hko and it usually just uses barrier, psybeam isn't threatening even if it does attack. Venomoth outspeeds and barely hangs on after a thunderbolt, it tends to just use supersonic since psybeam does like 10 damage. Alakazam is technically doable since you 2hko it/3hko it with calm mind, but psychic 3hkos you and Zam outspeeds so you need some good luck with future sights and not being chipped by earlier members. Solid performance, can sweep but tends to just fall short of beating Zam.
Nidoqueen. Kadabra gets 2hkod through reflect with dig, Ohkod if it does anything else. Mr Mime doesn't like to attack with psybeam although if it does you get 3hkod, it tends to use barrier which turns dig's 2hko into a 3hko, then it baton passes to Alakazam if you don't kill it fast enough. Alakazam is not happening, outspeeds and Ohkos while you only 2hko, assumming no boosts. Venomoth is a 3hko, but it's psybeam is pathetic so you can beat it reliably at least. Mediocre/bad performance, due to only beating Kadabra and Venomoth, aka the two worst mons, reliably.
About Hitmonlee - yeah, I think it's is going to be way better than Machamp just because of speed. I mentioned that Machamp's bulk saves a lot of its matchups, but a big reason for that is that it's making up for its very very low speed. It doesn't outspeed really anything notable and hence it just can't sweep unless the matchup is really good, hence why I opted for Revenge over something technically more reliable. Hitmonlee doesn't have this issue as 87 in this game is at worst respectable and only really loses out against Alakazam and Aerodactyl, so I can see it pulling off sweeps that Machamp wasn't capable of -- the aforementioned Sabrina is an incredible example of this. I'll be curious to see if further logs can prove it's worthy of A.
About C seeming too harsh for Shellder: I'm not disagreeing on that (it seems good so far!), but I don't see C as a bad tier myself. The way I see the tiers - broadly - is S being The Best, A being amazing, B being good, C being meh, D being mostly bad and E being nigh-unusable. I just wanted to quickly clear that up in case that's why C sounded harsh; I see it as closer to middle-of-the-road than outright negative. Also, one of the reasons I put Shellder there is that it's relatively late-game; needing Surf to be encountered.
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