Pokémon Firered & Leafgreen In-Game Tier Discussion

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Texas Cloverleaf

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Blastoise lv 45: Five up, five down.

Primeape lv 46: Bulk Up to whatever (I went to +3), sweep.

Electabuzz lv 47: Rhyhorn OHKOs you.

Clefable lv 46: Clears Rhyhorn with Fire Blast but is a coin flip to push through Nidoqueen or falling to Earthquakes. If you keep Water Pulse (for some reason) you can eat enough hits to take out three enemies.

Exeggutor lv 45: Five up, five down between Giga Drain and Psychic.

Graveler lv 46: OHKO Rhyhorn, eat an EQ from Nidoqueen and OHKO, fall to Nidoking.


Blastoise lv 50: Dewgong is a 4HKO with Earthquake but does little in return (Leftovers a big help), Surf is a 3HKO on Cloyster but it does little in return, Slowbro is a 5HKO with Bite and Earthquake but it does little in return (notice a pattern?), Earthquake would be a 3HKO on Jynx but you run out of power points here so you're left to Bite for a 4HKO, or two Surfs after an Earthquake for a 3HKO, Lapras finally outdamages you plus Leftovers with Body Slam and you fall. Leftovers goes a long way in this fight, otherwise you still beat three.

Primeape lv 50: Annoyingly, can't clean sweep because Slowbro is a bitch, but can kill Dewgong and set up on Cloyster to handle the best of the team.

Clefable lv 52: 3HKO Dewgong with Return, 2HKO Cloyster with Fire Blast, 3HKO Slowbro, then fall. If Dewgong or Cloyster attack more than than one you fall to Slowbro.

Graveler lv 52: lol

Exeggutor lv 50: OHKOs Cloyster and handles Slowbro comfortably, however the other three outspeed. You can 1v1 Dewgong or Lapras with Sleep Powder+Giga Drain as you live one Ice Beam from either, but only one of the two and only if Sleep Powder hits.

Electabuzz lv 50: 2HKOs Dewgong (even Thunder), OHKOs Cloyster, 2HKOs Slowbro, 2HKOs Lapras, and falls to Jynx. You are taking hits throughout so if the AI just attacks you won't beat Lapras, though your SpDef is actually good enough to tank two.


Blastoise lv 50: OHKO both Onixes, obviously, and you beat either Hitmonlee or Hitmonchan 1v1, but not both.

Primeape lv 51: Bulk Up once on the first Onix (reset if Rock Tomb) and kill, Bulk Up further on the second Onix to either +3 (necessary for Hitmonchan) or +4 (possibly necessary for Machamp, not sure) and kill, then Aerial Ace sweep. Need extra boosts for low BP non stab coverage. Rock Tomb is dumb.

Clefable lv 52: Water Pulse can beat the Onixes if you have it I guess.

Graveler lv 52: You beat one Onix but nothing more.

Exeggutor lv 50: Egg is slow but it doesn't matter unless you get an unlucky Iron Tail defense drop before a Hitmonlee Mega Kick, easy sweep otherwise.

Electabuzz lv 50: No bueno, 3HKO the fighters and they 2HKO back.


Blastoise lv 51: Agatha is a hax machine when you're slower than her but you should be able to kill two more or less okay, Gengar is a 3HKO, Golbat, Haunter, and Arbok 2HKOs. Crapshoot as to how far you can get.

Primeape lv 51: Bulk Up to +6 on Gengar 1 as it spams Double Team (you outspeed which hedges Confuse Ray), use a Full Heal or Full Restore to handle the inevitable Toxic (+5 needed to OHKO with Aerial Ace), then sweep with Aerial Ace and Mega Kick.

Clefable lv 52: Counters Gengar 1 and Haunter, Thunder Wave and Shadow Ball ez. Golbat is losing through Agatha's postions as you just miss the 2HKO and poison and confusion add up, Arbok slaps you and Gengar 2 is a coin flip on whether Hypnosis hits or not.

Graveler lv 52: Rock Slide *just* 2HKOs Gengar 1 (CRay, Dt, etc), -1 Earthquake 2HKOs Arbok, -1 Rock Slide is a roll to 2HKO Golbat but CRay and Bite make it a toss up whether you survive that long. You can 2v1 basically any combination and occasional 3 for 1 but you do need to switch out of Intimidate and status conditions.

Exeggutor lv 50: Beats Gengar 1, Arbok, and Haunter, loses to Gengar 2, and coin flips with Golbat (flinches, crits, confusion, poison, etc), if you get a hit off you win but if you don't get it off immediately you die.

Electabuzz lv 50: Thunderbolt+Thunder beats Gengar 1 outspeeding but Double Team is a concern, shockingly Golbat both outspeeds and needs Thunder to OHKO, you die to Arbok as you 3HKO and Sludge Bomb is a 2HKO.


Blastoise lv 51: Doesn't do enough to Gyara to be worth fighting, stomps Aero, stomps both Dragonair, and lays in a heavy hit on Dragonite before falling (one Full Heal to counter Thunder Wave needed).

Primeape lv 51: No good spot to set up. You can beat one Dragonair comfortably, two with difficulty, but everything else is unfavorable.

Clefable lv 52: You outspeed and 2HKO the Dragonairs with Return and can paralyze Dragonite, but little more. If you have Thunderbolt or Ice Beam the Gyara/Dnite matchups improve.

Graveler lv 52: lolgyara, stomps Aero, get stomped by the dragons.

Exeggutor lv 51: SleepSeed laughs at Gyara extremely hard, loses to Aero and Dragonite, and beats the Dragonairs dependent on miss luck and Shed Sking RNG.

Electabuzz lv 50: Bops Gyarados, loses to the dragons, and can beat Aerodactyl if Static procs or it doesn't use Ancientpower, 2HKO with Thunderbolt, Thunder doesn't get there.


Blastoise lv 51: 3HKO Pidgeot, OHKO Rhydon, 2HKO Arcanine and Charizard, avoid Venusaur and Exeggutor and Gyarados and Alakazam.

Primeape lv 51: Lose to everything. Literally everything.

Clefable lv 52: Clefable exists to stomp Alakazam, nothing else.

Graveler lv 52: Pidgeot Featherdances you and then switches. So. There's that. You get onked by everything else except Charizard if you started with Venu (Arcanine can 2HKO you and has Intimidate to live).

Exeggutor lv 51: Avoid Pidgeot, easily beat Zam with sleep seed, run from Arcanine and Charizard, 2HKO Vensaur because lolmonograss, SleepSeed Gyara and stomp Rhydon.

Electabuzz lv 50: Tbolt 2HKOs Pidgeot, no to Rhyhorn, no to Exeggcutor, donk Gyarados, no to Venusaur, lose to Arcanine and Alakazam, 2HKO Blastoise while living a hit back easily.


Final Team

Blastoise lv 51, Lonely, Torrent @ Leftovers
149 / 113 / 108 / 96 / 113 / 98
Surf / Ice Beam / Bite / Earthquake

Primeape lv 51, Impish, Vital Spirit
141 / 135 / 82 / 77 / 80 / 127
Brick Break / Mega Kick / Aerial Ace / Bulk Up

Clefable lv 52, Careful, Cute Charm
164 / 101 / 95 / 98 / 113 / 90
Return / Fire Blast / Shadow Ball / Thunder Wave

Graveler lv 52, Relaxed, Rock Head
135 / 118 / 154 / 63 / 54 / 51
Earthquake / Rock Slide / Double-Edge / Strength (Rollout)

Electabuzz lv 50, Gentle, Static
136 / 97 / 70 / 104 / 108 / 116
Thunderbolt / Brick Break / Swift / Thunder

Exeggutor lv 52, Rash, Chlorophyll
173 / 117 / 102 / 169 / 77 / 77
Psychic / Giga Drain / Sleep Powder / Leech Seed


Conclusions

Blastoise: A tier, not S. The absolute definition of consistency, but fails to achieve the form of dominance I expect from the top level Pokemon. Sweeps only the matchups where it has type advantage, something at the top tier should be able to carry at least some amount of neutral matchups as well. Even then the consistency and immediate availability might be enough to justify it staying S, but when it also has an outright losing matchup against Erika and mediocre performances against multiple other major fights (Misty, Koga, Agatha, even Lorelei discounting Leftover) I think it clearly shows its flaws to enough of a degree to eliminate S as an option.

Primeape: This one is weird. It felt like a B mon when I was using it but the logs suggest an A level performance. Sweeping Brock, Lt. Surge, Erika (debatable), Sabrina, Giovanni, Bruno, and Agatha and strong performances vs Blaine and Lorelei really make a cash for A. It has losing matchups vs Koga, Lance, and the Champion, but otherwise shows out well. I think I have to nominate this to A when used optimally, in spite of my gut feeling saying its power/bulk combination fits more in B, Bulk Up sweeping really steps up the power level.

Clefable: Agree with B. Very strong in the early game, power/bulk falls off in the late game but movepool customization ensures it is always relevant. I went a build that didn't use any of Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, or Psychic and Clef still put up a reasonable performance.

Graveler: Drop from C to D tier. I never understand why people have so much love for the Geodude line. Time and time again they hit a certain level threshhold where the speed gap catches up to them and they immediately become unusable garbage. You could make a legitimate case that no trade Geodude should be in E tier. What did it actually do in major battles? It swept Lt. Surge but a Diglett can do that. Graveler got stomped by Misty, stomped by Erika, lost badly to Koga in what should have been a favorable matchup, lost vs Sabrina to her Mr. Mime let alone Alakazam, lost badly to Blaine in what should have been a favorable matchup, was passable vs Giovanni and then contributed next to nothing vs the E4. It was effective vs route trainers but against major battles? Directly a liability and comparable to the time I used Onix. The more I'm writing this the more I find myself making a case for E tier. Yikes.

Electabuzz: Definitely should not be B tier, drop to C. Funny thing is I actually enjoyed using Electabuzz, its a fun mon and decently powerful, but the logs speak for themselves, it simply didn't contribute all that much in major fights. It was almost always good for a kill or two and was surprisingly bulky on the special side but never managed to accomplish anything more than that kind of average performance. In pretty much all respects short of the contested Psychic TM that went to Egg, Buzz was simply Jolteon with a different stat spread.

Exeggutor: B is "fine" but my experience makes a strong case for A, even without going to level 37 with Sleep Powder. To be honest the only really compelling argument I can see for keeping Egg out of A is its relatively late availability. In terms of power level and performance Egg showed out like a boss, sweeping Koga, Sabrina, Giovanni, and Bruno, and putting in strong performances against not only Lorelei, Agatha, and the Champion, but also completely decent performances against Lance and even Blaine at both typing and speed disadvantages. I've gone off at length before about SleepSeed being busted and it is, but Eggs 125 base stat Psychic is equally as compelling. Favorite mon to have used out of this run by far.
 
This will be my last post in this thread. Personally I feel that noms aren't being addressed when they should be. There is a lack of interaction with the list leader and their testers, and if there is any interaction, its to point out a fallacy. Liking a post isn't interaction. Regardless of this concern, my computer has decided to be out of commission and with it, my tests. Moving onto the noms that should be addressed personally.

Anything using SleepSeed should not be inflated in any capacity. SleepSeed is nice yes, but it also shows the issue with the Mon using it. That being their lack of killing power in neutral match ups or even taking down a boss in a 2-3HKO range. SleepSeed only amplifies this Achilles Heel as you start to become reliant on it, hoping to roll sleep turns greater than 1-2. Thus you become dependent on RNG/luck, which to me is particularly a bad thing and should be treated as a strike against the mon. Adding onto this fact, it takes two turns minimum to set up and can take significantly longer then that. Meaning it's free punishment of you don't land it in time.

The next nom I have issues with is Aerodactyl. There should be no way this is higher than D. In case anyone has forgotten, its post Koga at level 5. That is inexcusable for what tier it was nommed to. In order for this to catch up, you need to skip trainers, thereby hurting the rest of your team as it will absorb that XP. (While the Vs. Seeker is available, this technically falls under the scope of level grinding which last I checked wasn't allowed, frowned upon, or just absolutely hurt the pokemon. This is from all the other tier lists. I don't think there is an issue using the Seeker to close a level gap, but there is one if its to drag a level 5 up to team levels). Requires a backtrack to obtain the Old Amber, A sequence break to obtain it sooner than Gym 7, another backtrack to get Rock Slide which is pretty much off the beaten path, and to top it all off, it requires a 10% Omni Buff to do things in some fights.

That's it. I bid this list adieu. I hope it succeeds and finishes.
 
This will be my last post in this thread. Personally I feel that noms aren't being addressed when they should be. There is a lack of interaction with the list leader and their testers, and if there is any interaction, its to point out a fallacy. Liking a post isn't interaction. Regardless of this concern, my computer has decided to be out of commission and with it, my tests. Moving onto the noms that should be addressed personally.

Anything using SleepSeed should not be inflated in any capacity. SleepSeed is nice yes, but it also shows the issue with the Mon using it. That being their lack of killing power in neutral match ups or even taking down a boss in a 2-3HKO range. SleepSeed only amplifies this Achilles Heel as you start to become reliant on it, hoping to roll sleep turns greater than 1-2. Thus you become dependent on RNG/luck, which to me is particularly a bad thing and should be treated as a strike against the mon. Adding onto this fact, it takes two turns minimum to set up and can take significantly longer then that. Meaning it's free punishment of you don't land it in time.

The next nom I have issues with is Aerodactyl. There should be no way this is higher than D. In case anyone has forgotten, its post Koga at level 5. That is inexcusable for what tier it was nommed to. In order for this to catch up, you need to skip trainers, thereby hurting the rest of your team as it will absorb that XP. (While the Vs. Seeker is available, this technically falls under the scope of level grinding which last I checked wasn't allowed, frowned upon, or just absolutely hurt the pokemon. This is from all the other tier lists. I don't think there is an issue using the Seeker to close a level gap, but there is one if its to drag a level 5 up to team levels). Requires a backtrack to obtain the Old Amber, A sequence break to obtain it sooner than Gym 7, another backtrack to get Rock Slide which is pretty much off the beaten path, and to top it all off, it requires a 10% Omni Buff to do things in some fights.

That's it. I bid this list adieu. I hope it succeeds and finishes.

It is, I suppose, fair for you to feel that way -- I apologise for a lack of activity from myself on this thread lately. I have a very time-consuming job at a local supermarket; usually I'm able to balance this just fine with things like this, but the past month has been extremely busy due to both the normal Christmas rush and the continued stresses of the pandemic; and most of my non-working time at home I have been spending preparing for Christmas, preparing for Brexit and certain other personal things I won't go into - most times I've been able to get onto smogon is on small bursts during my work breaks, so as such I haven't had much time either to test or to provide responses and feedback I felt were adequate.
Unless there was a large burst of people talking in this thread before then, I planned to get this thread back on track after Christmas instead when everything would calm down on my end. I didn't really say anything because, well, I thought it would have been reasonable for most viewers of the thread to assume that during the holiday season some users might be less active; and other very active tier list threads have gone through periods of inactivity before -- but, sorry, should have been more communicative. I'm sorry to hear about your computer, I hope you're able to get it fixed or replaced as soon as possible.

On to your concerns... if SleepSeeds works, it works. I will concede that it's maybe being too highly rated; but the percentages aren't exactly weighed against you -- the two moves involved are far from inaccurate, and 2 is the minimum number of turns Sleep can last; so unless I'm unaware of 2 turns being much more likely than the others (as far as I know, all possible amount of turns are equally as likely), this seems fine. At the end of the day the logs are showing Venusaur using it to muscle through opponents that it really shouldn't be able to, so I don't think it matters all that much if it takes two or three turns of set-up with a small chance of being inaccurate sometimes. That should be considered but Venusaur is still using it to beat opponents it otherwise can't, so it's a net positive in my book.

Aerodactyl I have the same reservations which is why I'm not letting it break C-tier, but Texas' logs alone have shown me that C-tier isn't as farfetched as I thought -- no-one has forgotten that it comes at level 5, because we're basing this on logs which openly admitted it comes at level 5. If it really is able to clear out Silph Co. at levels as low as the early 20s, allowing you to get incredible matchups from Sabrina onwards; I'm willing to judge that as a net positive too. It does require a lot of investment and focus which is why I'm not letting it break C, but it's very much looking like the definition of high investment high reward to me.


Everyone, sorry for being unresponsive. I'm going to try and this thread back on track after Christmas as I said, but despite my recently busy life I have little excuse to have been as inactive as I've been. I'm currently working long hours every day until Christmas, but after that expect some feedback and updates.
 
Once again, very sorry for the late update -- I hope to be more consistent from now on and to give this thread attention it deserves.

With that said, right off the bat I think there's enough data now to definitively state Both Bulbasaur and Squirtle for A. Looking through logs I'm seeing similar patterns -- extremely capable mon who are able to deal with even matchups that seem unwinnable for them, but with just enough flaws and/or RNG reliance to not make them the totally reliable Pokémon that an S-rank deserves. They're both bordering it imo, but certainly can't quite cross the line.

Psyduck is rising to B. I'm not totally sold on A tier considering its average stats and fairly late availability, but a calm mind sweeper is a calm mind sweeper. I'm at least convinced it doesn't deserve to stay in C based on the provided logs.

Aerodactyl, similarly, is rising to D. I want more opinions and tests on this before I can move it any higher considering its very obvious drawbacks -- it's at least clear to me that it's nowhere near dead weight which is why I'm not keeping it in E, but I don't feel one run is enough to convince me on it raising that much higher. Very excited to see this regardless!

Goldeen rising to C is, I think, fair enough -- a generic water is a generic water which I've praised Horsea for before, and ultimately it contributes more than D-rank is fitting for.

Venomoth is also rising to C. Its merits have been shown tenfold in the logs; it's simply a case of an overlooked shitmon with more positives than first sight implies.

Mr. Mime I'm just about sold on for S, but I want to do a run for myself before I fully decide that. I don't see it staying at A, though; I definitely think we'll have a psychic-packed S-tier soon enough. Gyarados is similar -- I'm just about convinced on a rise, but want to test myself to see if it really deserves that.

Exeggutor is staying B. I actually have similar success with it using Sunnybeam + Explosion instead of Sleepseed, Texas; but your assumption is right that it's kept at B for its availability issues. It just comes a little too late and requires a little too much babying for me to really consider it an A-tier performance, especially when there are a few major fights it can't perform well on. Excellent at what it does, but a latecomer with some drawbacks.

Nidoran-M I'm also going to say is much closer to S than B in its A-ranking, and that's down to Mr. Nido. Caught normally it is without doubt much more comparable to the B-rank Pokémon and that was my experience too, but the boosted exp and guaranteed good stats from the Leafgreen trade simply skyrocket its viability. It's not quite S, but I found it comparable to the starters' performance.

Golem... is not going to A, I'm sorry. It's extremely solid and strong when it wants to be but it's too slow, too specially frail and has too many bad matchups especially in the league for me to consider it on the level of Blastoise or Kadabra. Similar comments for Primeape, I'm afraid.



That about does it for updates and comments, I think! Up next I'm gonna be doing a run of Charmander, Magikarp, Mr. Mime and probably a filler 'mon to see how well those do for myself.
 
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Once again, very sorry for the late update -- I hope to be more consistent from now on and to give this thread attention it deserves.

With that said, right off the bat I think there's enough data now to definitively state Both Bulbasaur and Squirtle for S. Looking through logs I'm seeing similar patterns -- extremely capable mon who are able to deal with even matchups that seem unwinnable for them, but with just enough flaws and/or RNG reliance to not make them the totally reliable Pokémon that an S-rank deserves. They're both bordering it imo, but certainly can't quite cross the line.
I wanna say that I appreciate you updating this as IRL is an unpredictable thing sometimes.

But I do take issue with Squirtle and Bulbasaur in S.

What logs are you basing this decision for both off of? They have only has Texas's logs alone, which, while helpful and credible, aren't enough to raise a mon to S in my opinion.

From my perspective as a person who has published a tier list on-site already and is working on publishing another in RBY, S tiers generally need massive support to be in S. Ralts in RSE had many nominations to S and many testers who verified their opinion of it being the best of the best. Archen in BW1 was initially thought to be S but dropped to A. Everyone said "it's broken" and then we realized that it doesn't actually OHKO everything at the League and generally has a questionable two-Gym startup.

While BW1 and to an extent RBY have had a small pool of testers and thus have had to mostly draw from mine and Ryota's experiences, we generally asked for input on S tiers before raising them, only doing so when feedback was given or the proposals for the nominations hadn't had feedback after a noticeable period of time.

Ryota's post here had some doubts on the middle forms of the starters, saying that Bulbasaur should be the only one in A, seeing Squirtle as B by contrast. While this nominations could be sound, I doubt Ivysaur and Wartortle as well.

Wartortle simply has bad midgame matchups and a movepool that don't let it really get going until Blastoise, and as we have proven in RBY (which is virtually the same game as FRLG with slight tweaks more or less) Squirtle is solid but just isn't dominant enough to be S.

Bulbasaur still has SleepSeed RNG. While Bulbasuar gets Sleep Powder much earlier in FRLG compared to RBY, I doubt it being S. What matchups does it really have past Lt. Surge besides Lorelei and Bruno? What does it actually sweep? Venusaur's typing is terrible offensively, it generally almost never OHKOs as it seldom hits super-effectively. Are you calling it an S tier when it takes like 4+ turns to kill foes with SleepLeech and STAB? How is that S compared to Alakazam, Jynx, or the Nidos which OHKO or 2HKO virtually everything until endgame? That's just not a quick way to clear the game in my book.

Another thing about S-tiers is they generally need to have stats oriented for sweeping. Only a few exceptions have been S with slow Speed off the top of my head: Scraggy in BW1 and Honedge in XY, with both getting by on their Ability of Moxie and typing respectively (though Scraggy's type helps it against the Elite Four in BW1). Another example might be Drowzee in RBY with that 67 base Speed as Hypno, but that's no issue because Psychic go brrrrr, to use a phrase.

Now, while Blastoise and Venusaur outpace most foes fine in regard to Speed, they have only slightly above average offenses. How is Blastoise's 85 Special Attack going to sweep much without a type advantage? How will Venusaur overpower foes with 100 Special Attack if it has like no moves to use it with and Grass is a historically terrible type for in-game forcing it back into SleepSeed?

Here are some examples of what I consider good arguments for S:

Darumaka in BW1 (which actually convinced everyone that Hustle was overblown).

Geodude (trade) to S in HGSS (while it ultimately stayed in A, the leader thought it was a good argument, they just didn't see enough support from other testers to raise Golem to S).

Best of luck with your FRLG list, Kurona, but Squirtle and Bulbasaur in S in FRLG seem...questionable at best to me.
 
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I wanna say that I appreciate you updating this as IRL is an unpredictable thing sometimes.

But I do take issue with Squirtle and Bulbasaur in S.

What logs are you basing this decision for both off of? They have only has Texas's logs alone, which, while helpful and credible, aren't enough to raise a mon to S in my opinion.

From my perspective as a person who has published a tier list on-site already and is working on publishing another in RBY, S tiers generally need massive support to be in S. Ralts in RSE had many nominations to S and many testers who verified their opinion of it being the best of the best. Archen in BW1 was initially thought to be S but dropped to A. Everyone said "it's broken" and then we realized that it doesn't actually OHKO everything at the League and generally has a questionable two-Gym startup.

While BW1 and to an extent RBY have had a small pool of testers and thus have had to mostly draw from mine and Ryota's experiences, we generally asked for input on S tiers before raising them, only doing so when feedback was given or the proposals for the nominations hadn't had feedback after a noticeable period of time.

Ryota's post here had some doubts on the middle forms of the starters, saying that Bulbasaur should be the only one in A, seeing Squirtle as B by contrast. While this nominations could be sound, I doubt Ivysaur and Wartortle as well.

Wartortle simply has bad midgame matchups and a movepool that don't let it really get going until Blastoise, and as we have proven in RBY (which is virtually the same game as FRLG with slight tweaks more or less) Squirtle is solid but just isn't dominant enough to be S.

Bulbasaur still has SleepSeed RNG. While Bulbasuar gets Sleep Powder much earlier in FRLG compared to RBY, I doubt it being S. What matchups does it really have past Lt. Surge besides Lorelei and Bruno? What does it actually sweep? Venusaur's typing is terrible offensively, it generally almost never OHKOs as it seldom hits super-effectively. Are you calling it an S tier when it takes like 4+ turns to kill foes with SleepLeech and STAB? How is that S compared to Alakazam, Jynx, or the Nidos which OHKO or 2HKO virtually everything until endgame? That's just not a quick way to clear the game in my book.

Another thing about S-tiers is they generally need to have stats oriented for sweeping. Only a few exceptions have been S with slow Speed off the top of my head: Scraggy in BW1 and Honedge in XY, with both getting by on their Ability of Moxie and typing respectively (though Scraggy's type helps it against the Elite Four in BW1). Another example might be Drowzee in RBY with that 67 base Speed as Hypno, but that's no issue because Psychic go brrrrr, to use a phrase.

Now, while Blastoise and Venusaur outpace most foes fine in regard to Speed, they have only slightly above average offenses. How is Blastoise's 85 Special Attack going to sweep much without a type advantage? How will Venusaur overpower foes with 100 Special Attack if it has like no moves to use it with and Grass is a historically terrible type for in-game forcing it back into SleepSeed?

Here are some examples of what I consider good arguments for S:

Darumaka in BW1 (which actually convinced everyone that Hustle was overblown).

Geodude (trade) to S in HGSS (while it ultimately stayed in A, the leader thought it was a good argument, they just didn't see enough support from other testers to raise Golem to S).

Best of luck with your FRLG list, Kurona, but Squirtle and Bulbasaur in S in FRLG seem...questionable at best to me.
Well, see, I have a very good reason for that!

... it was a typo, I meant A. Whoooops. The OP reflects that as do my comments accompanying their rank change; I think I just had on my mind the fact that Squirtle was S-rank previously. You're completely right about S being a very creme-of-the-creme rank that needs a very very good reason for membership!
 
I do agree that Bulbasaur is almost S in RBY, but he loses 100% critical hit Razor Leaf in FRLG, so no !
Woof. Your impression of RBY Bulbasaur is much different than mine. I wouldn't put Bulbasaur in the Top 10 let alone S-Tier, though I should save that for the RBY tier thread.
 
Starting a run with Charmander, Magikarp, Mr. Mime and Machop (trade)!

Charmander: Level 14. With no other Pokémon to train it ends up at this level with surprising ease granted you take out all the bug catchers -- as for the fight, about as shaky as you'd expect. Charmander's able to muscle through with Ember, and in general I'd recommend that over Metal Claw as the burn chance is invaluable; but if Brock decides to wake up and use Rock Tomb a few times without being burned then it's more or less doomed. What does help though is Brock's FRLG AI being, well, Brock's FRLG AI; where you may as well be facing against a wild Pokémon and hence I actually done this on my first try because his Geodude doesn't bother to use Rock Tomb. All in all, this fight's doable either with some luck, some sand attack/growl support, or grinding a little to Charmeleon. B-tier performance in my mind.


Misty I skipped for a little bit -- I cleared out all of Route 24/25 before heading down for a second to Vermilion to grab the bike, Mr. Mime and some trainer exp for (Mt. Moon) Magikarp to evolve. I feel this is reasonable; Misty is one of the hardest bosses in the game by far if you didn't start with Bulbasaur, and players may opt to skip on her until they absolutely need Cut to progress; and I wanted to test SOMETHING other than "Charmeleon = dies instantly". As such the levels are a little higher than usual.

Charmeleon: Level 26. Better than I thought -- I picked up Mega Punch instead of Mega Kick this time for a slightly different experience, and to my surprise, Punch actually OHKOs Staryu after outspeeding. It only does 1/3 to Starmie though (would ofc be about 1/2 with Kick) which outspeeds and 2HKOs you even at this level, so ultimately helpful but not much more. C-tier performance, better than I thought given the matchup.

Gyarados: Level 20 (21 after Staryu). As you might expect, absolute destruction. Outspeeds and OHKOs Staryu with Secret Power. Both Secret Power and Bite come just short of 2HKOing Starmie so it's a bit of an endurance test with Misty's Super Potion but one you easily pass; her Swifts done chip damage even without Intimidate so you win. S-tier performance, could hardly go better.

Mr. Mime: Level 18. No. It gets in some hits against Staryu but the Cascade Badge is what allows you to control it beyond Level 10 in the first place, so it's a struggle to even beat Staryu and Starmie destroys you. Even if I levelled further I don't think things would go better. I expect this is by far its weakest performance in the game; D-tier performance but I'm hardly going to hold that against it.
 

Colteor

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Hi! this thread is pretty interesting and I wanted to test some stuff. I picked ones that are either E rank or don't have tests done yet in this thread. First time posting in an in game tier list thread so lmk if I forgot something. Final team will be the Weedle, Ekans, Dratini, Onix, Omanyte and Lickitung lines.

Team- Beedrill, lvl 14
Surprisingly easy, although I may have gotten lucky. The plan was to use poison sting until I poisoned the Geodude, then use 6 hardens and spam poison sting to finish it off. When Onix comes out use poison sting until poisoned, then fury attack. Onix used rock tomb all of twice, it didn't do a lot (about 9 damage) but I still used one potion due to all the chip. Obviously not good but better than I expected tbh.

Team- Beedrill, lvl 23

Awful matchup, could only be worse if you were somehow weak to rattata's normal moves. Pidgeotto almost always spams sand attacks, so your best bet is to get lucky and hit long enough fury attacks that you 2hko the Pidgeotto with only one sand attack hitting you. once Charmander comes out you don't need very long fury attacks (only takes 6 to kill, but I was adamant so more like 7 for neutral natures) the problem is you will either be very weak if you were hit by gust, or very inaccurate if you were hit with sand attack.
Technically all the issues with getting worn down can be fixed with spamming super potions, but if you do that basically anything can beat this fight with enough patience so I didn't. For other moves, Twinneedle obviously will do less damage and the poison chance doesn't matter, same with poison sting although I guess they are more accurate if a mon has very little HP left. Harden isn't worth setting up for Pidgeotto since you'll just get die to Charmander, but may as well be used on Abra to make rattata barely scratch you.

Notes: Didn't test Ekans for this fight since it's literally just been caught and you probably won't want to grind it up just for this fight. This fight is also significantly easier if you choose Squirtle and especially Charmander, but I guess I like pain so I picked Bulbasaur.

Team- Ekans, lvl 19. Beedrill, lvl 25 (26 vs Starmie)

Ekans, not at a type disadvantage, but that's where the good traits end. My strongest move was bite for both of Misty's pokemon, and it was only a 4hko on Staryu (it takes the same amount of turns with or without using wrap first.) I couldn't tell you how much it does to Starmie because despite beating Staryu a few times in over 15 attempts, even my best attempt at more than 1/2 HP water pulse still killed me. I could've leveled up but Glare would just introduce more RNG and still likely lose, and I didn't want to grind up to Arbok (lvl 22) since that's not usually going to be the best option to beat this fight unless it's some gimmick run.

Beedrill, very easy sweep, twinneedle Ohkos both Staryu and Starmie, and you outspeed both. Admittedly I was overleveled because of needing to basically solo until this point, but in an average run with a lvl 22-ish Beedrill I still don't see this fight being very hard due to naturally good attacks and base stats for this fight.

Team- Arbok lvl 24 (25 after Pidgeotto) Beedrill lvl 26

Arbok, I overleveled for this fight since I thought the rivals team was way higher leveled (like mid 20s, not 18-20). Arbok spamming bite was all I needed to do, only big threats were Pidgeotto for spamming sand attack, and Kadabra who would deal most of my health with confusion if I missed bite. Raticate and Charmeleon weren't very threatening but could chip you enough to faint Arbok and prevent a sweep. Overall pretty neutral matchup, although Kadabra would have no doubt been a pain if I was a lower level/slower than it.

Beedrill, very good matchup vs 2 mons, terrible matchup vs the other 2. Pidgeotto spams either gust which is about a 4hko, or sand attack which ruins you for the rest of the fight. Brick break does pretty good damage, but not enough to avoid either serious chip or horrible accuracy. Twineedle Ohkos kadabra obviously, but Charmeleon is basically Pidgeotto v2, now with a burn chance to add more luck. Closest I got to sweeping this fight was getting Charmeleon to red with brick break, but dying because it decided to use ember once. Never fought Raticate but it's either an Ohko or very close.

Team- Arbok lvl 26 Beedril lvl 26

Arbok, easy sweep, finally taught secret power becuase I'm bad and didn't get it before misty, everything goes down in a few hits and won't do much back.
Beedrill, also easy sweep, not much to say other than just spam twineedle and as long as you don't get horrific paralysis rng it's a win.

Thoughts on the team so far.
:arbok: pretty good so far, intimidate is an awesome ability and helps offset mediocre bulk. Respectable attack + Secret power will probably carry for a while with giga drain later for rocks/grounds. Bite is also okay coverage for psychics when trying to sweep, but probably not going to be enough for the actually hard psychic battles later. I think it's good early game but is gonna be pretty deadweight later on without being overleveled due to its shallow movepool.
:beedrill: not bad at sweeping early game when opponents are still quite frail and lacking in coverage, and twineedle for psychics is great. Incredibly frail however, and will fold pretty fast if it can't KO the opponent very quickly or if it gets hit with basically any supereffective stab. Interested in how it performs late game, but I don't think I'll be impressed.
 
Heya; welcome to Smogon! I definitely wish you a lot of luck with that team; you might want to consider swapping out something so it's possible to even beat the game without overlevelling? Either way your posts are pretty well made, so I very much welcome your input :)

One thing I will say is that typically these lists tend to test with teams of 4 or 5, so you might want to consider dropping one of your predicted team members?
 

Colteor

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Thank you for the answer! I could drop Omanyte and Lickitung since those two are pretty likely to not change places in the tier list. I'll add the Staryu line since they can probably carry me through most of the hard fights with it's great coverage.
Edit, nvm Staryu is leafgreen exclusive, Mr mime then
 

Texas Cloverleaf

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No need to change anything for that purpose mind you, I did a shitmon run of my own at one point (Parasect, Onix, Beedrill, Golbat, on the same team etc) and you should be fine to beat the league. Omastar and Dragonite are excellent mons just held back by acquisition cost so while the others won't do much of anything in the league those two should be able to carry you fairly comfortably (don't sleep on Omastar, Surf/Ice Beam behind 125 base spatk is fantastic)
 

Colteor

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Hmm okay, if you think I can beat the league anyway I'll try just dropping Lickitung and not using the mime, thanks!
 
About time I gave an update! Gyarados has seriously been exceeding my expectations (though, really -- 130 attack, insane bulk, secret power? how did I not think that'd wreck early to mid game?), and Machop was surprisingly self-sufficient from catching it at Level 17. Gained EXP really quick and it's very strong right off the bat with STAB Brick Break, granted you don't give it to Charmeleon or a Nido. In fact, EVERYTHING'S been very self-sufficient with very little babying needed; with of course the exception of Gyarados' Magikarp stage -- at worst you have to switch out Machop once or twice or give it a potion during Rock Tunnel, and Mr. Mime's biggest problem is disobeying you when it gets too powerful. But you've little reason not to beat Misty or Erika before it gets to that stage, so overall? Everything's been a home run before bosses!

Charmeleon: Level 26 (27 after Pidgeotto). Ember 2HKOs Pidgeotto as you might expect, at which point Wartortle decides to be annoying. Mega Punch deals about half, but it withdraws so it's a 3HKO at best from there and you take almost half from Water Gun. Ember is a 2HKO on Raticate and Mega Punch can OHKO Kadabra (though Dig leaves it at a sliver). The starter disadvantage naturally makes this shaky, but it does a little better than you'd think and ultimately can take care of everything else. A-tier performance.

Gyarados: Level 24 (25 after Pidgeotto). Earlygame Gyarados continues to wreck everything. Secret Power 2HKOs Pidgeotto, 2HKOs Raticate (though I got a crit for an OHKO), and 2HKOs Wartortle (if it doesn't use Withdraw but it can't do anything to you). Domination. Even gets Dragon Rage at 25 if you taught Secret Power to something else. S-tier performance.

Mr. Mime: Level 24 (25 after Wartortle). Confusion 2HKOs Pidgeotto with little trouble, Magical Leaf 2HKOs Wartortle but Bite stings, either Confusion or Magical Leaf 2HKOs Raticate, and Magical Leaf 2HKOs Kadabra. Magical Leaf is surprisingly clutch here; if Pidgeotto uses Sand Attack you just don't care because of the no-miss chance -- Confusion could be used on Wartortle and Raticate but there's no need. Granted there's no unlucky crits, more or less a clean sweep as Wartortle's Bite barely fazes you; S-tier performance.


Short note, my battle with Machop was done right after coming out of Rock Tunnel, speeding to Saffron and then down to Celadon rather than backtracking after catching at Rock Tunnel. I figured this makes the most sense, especially as you don't actually need to fight Surge and the one thing he lets you do (Fly) isn't until Celadon anyway. In my mind at least it's the more likely scenario of Machop fighting Surge were it ever to occur.

Charmeleon: Level 28. Outspeeds and OHKOs Voltorb and Pikachu with Dig; just misses out on a dig OHKO on Raichu so has to do a bit of chip damage while playing games with paralysis and double team. A-tier performance bordering on B; can sweep without support but it really depends on what Raichu wants to do.

Gyarados: Level 25. Voltorb is 2HKOed while Pikachu is OHKOed; both outsped and with Secret Power. Unfortunately the chip damage from Voltorb meant it died instantly to Raichu's Shock Wave. Doesn't care about the grunts but dies to the actual threat; C-tier performance.

Mr. Mime: Level 24 (25 after Voltorb). Awesome. 2HKO on Voltorb, OHKO on Pikachu, and Raichu tries to be annoying with Double Team and paralysis but ultimately Magical Leaf 3HKOs it before it can do anything. S-tier performance.

Machop: Level 27 (28 after Voltorb). OHKOes Pikachu and Voltorb just fine with Dig - or Brick Break - but I got pretty lucky in both dodging paralysis and hitting through Double Team. Is capable of 2HKOing Raichu with Dig or Brick Break, but in addition to Double Team and Static it's able to 2HKO you right back with Shock Wave. Very possible, but not a very strong showing especially considering the level. B-tier performance


Charmeleon: Level 28 (29 after Wartortle). 3HKOes Pidgeotto no matter what you throw at it; Wartortle is possible to 3HKO with enough physical moves granted it does something stupid but you'll probably lose. Growlithe takes a bit, Exeggcute dies, Kadabra you kill instantly with Secret Power. B-tier performance, starter weakness just really stings.

Gyarados: Level 28. Pidgeotto makes things annoying with Sand Attack, but otherwise you 2HKO everything with Secret Power, Water Pulse or Dragon Rage. Kadabra is really funny because you outspeed and OHKO with Secret Power even after Growlithe's Intimidate. This thing continues to be an unbreakable beast, S-tier performance.

Mr. Mime: Level 28 (29 after Wartortle). Continues to be amazing. Pidgeotto and Wartortle are 2HKOed with Shock Wave, Growlithe goes down to one Psybeam, Exeggcute wants to be annoying with resistances and hypnosis but dies to three Psycbeams anyway, Kadabra is outsped and 2HKOed by Shock Wave. All of this with basically no resistance. S-tier performance.

Machoke: Level 28 (29 after Kadabra). Very solid. Pidgeotto is OHKOed with Revenge, Exeggcute I imagine would be a 2HKO with Secret Power but I didn't have that so 3HKOed with Brick Break; Kadabra dies to one Dig as does Growlithe; Wartortle dies to two Brick Breaks. I'm going to say this is an A-tier performance, but it borders on B -- Kadabra does outspeed you, and I was just lucky that it chose Disable instead of Confusion; and if it had then Machoke either would have died then or to Wartortle.
 
yeah, gyarados was dope when i used him in fr/lg - he made misty look like a cakewalk. while bite wasn't doing a lot to starmie (given gyarados's horrendous special attack), secret power was able to make short work of it and starmie was having to spam recover a lot while water pulse did little back to gyarados. after that, the sea dragon trivialized most route trainers no matter what i used, dragon rage or water pulse or secret power.

dude also picks up dragon dance around l50 iirc, which combined with his great bulk on either side could make him a fearsome e4 sweeper...
 

Colteor

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More logs, a bit late due to exams but oh well, better late then never.

Team- Onix lvl 24 Beedrill lvl 29 (30 after Kadabra) Arbok lvl 30

Onix, performs very well vs every member of the Rival's team, except for the psychics. Hard walled by Exeggcute due to leech seed and it's bulk, also takes too much from confusion. Technically 1v1s Kadabra but takes too much from confusion. Gyarados doesn't have a water move yet, although bite kinda stings due to being special. Accuracy drops and rock slide being innacurate already further complicate a sweep, but it as long as something else beats the psychic types it does good.

Beedrill, basically the exact opposite of Onix. Outspeeds and Ohkos both psychics, has a hard time against everything else. It can beat one of Pidgeotto, Gyarados or Charmeleon, but has a hard time beating 2 of them, and never all 3 without insane luck.

Arbok, only weak to the psychics, and Kadabra wasn't an issue for me due to being overlevelved from switch training Onix in Rock tunnel. Despite the level difference, confusion still hits hard (about 40%) but I could outspeed and Ohko it with secret power. Still a bad matchup there however as you need to be quite overleveled to avoid big damage from it. Exeggecute is worse as it doesn't die to a single bite and can be a nuisance with any of confusion/reflect/hypnosis. As for the rest of his team, secret power is a 2hko (most of the time) on Pidgeotto and a 3hko vs the others. For Gyarados in particular you should switch out and come in later (weather that means letting another member chip Gyara or fainting your HM slave.) so that you can intimidate it without having lowered attack yourself. Overall not the worst matchup, but don't count on a sweep.

Notes, you can technically use Dratini for this fight, however it would require grinding since Celadon literally just became available and there's no mandatory trainers between there and the tower. In LG it's at lvl 24 and could be useful, but you also probably won't afford without going far out of your way for money. Even though it's cheaper in FR I still had to sell a lot of my CD collection for it, and just barely had enough.


Team- Dratini lvl 26 Onix lvl 26 Arbok lvl 30 Beedrill lvl 30

Dratini, despite your main attack dealing fixed damage, this battle is very luck based. Technically it's a bad matchup, as if Victreebell just spams acid you lose, or have low enough health that Tangela finishes you off. However sometimes Erika just decides spamming stun spore on a pokemon with shed skin is the best move, and won't attack. If that's the case then Tangela is hardly a threat. Vileplume is essentially a more threatening version of Victreebell, although despite me spending 20+ turns waiting for it in a test run, it never actually uses sleep powder and might be more likely to spam stun spore than Victreebell. What all this means is that a sweep, while possible (I got one in about 12 attempts) is very unlikely. It's more likely that you KO Vic and maybe Tangela, and then die to Vileplume. Could also switch in after KOing Vic with something else and beat the last two, either way 2 KOs is not bad.

Onix, about as bad of a matchup as possible. Giga drain from anything will Ohko, so you would need to get insane luck with rock slide flinches to win, which just isn't happening.

Beedrill, makes good use of the aerial ace tm for this fight, as it 2-3hkos every member of Erika's team. You will almost always be paralyzed, but you resist every move they have so you need to be seriously unlucky to lose from it. Tried a few times without aerial ace (in case you used it on something else), Could reliably beat Tangela and 1 of Vic or Vileplume unless I lost 3+ turns to paralysis. Very good matchup with aerial ace, decent without it.

Arbok, resisting every move is nice, but is quite hindered from the very likely paralysis from Vic. Losing as few as 2 turns can be a death sentence, because despite the resistance you don't have the bulk to take attacks and shrug them off. Doesn't help that every mon is effectively a 3hko due to screech + 2 secret powers being the best way to deal damage. A sweep is possible, but fairly unlikely with screech accuracy + para chance. Some move choice notes, glare can be helpful, especially vs Vileplume. Vic is usually fine without it being paralyzed, but it's nice in the final stretch. Erika only uses one full heal, and only on Tangela or Vileplume, so getting rid of it by paralyzing Tangela is better to get a clear shot at Vileplume. You could buy hyper beam at the dept. store and use it with screech for (probably) Ohkos, I didn't because I had very little money after buying Dratini, but it is a valid option for this fight.


Team- Onix lvl 27 Dragonair lvl 30 Arbok lvl 30 Beedrill lvl 30

Onix, Rhyhorn and the opposing Onix are both very good matchups, since they can barely scratch you and screech + 2 digs kos both. However Onix sucks and cannot reliably beat Kangaskhan. Bite being special means you get 3hkod by it + any chip damage, thankfully mega punch does very little even with tail whip. Onix only 4hkos in return with 2 screeches + 2 rock slides, so you basically just have to hope Kanga never uses bite. Mediocre performance considering the only things it beats die to any special move so it's not super important.

Dragonair, wrecks Onix and Rhyhorn (I used water pulse, but if you used it already then dragon rage works with a 2hko), so again Kangaskhan is the only issue. Mega punch is a 2hko on you, but since gen 3 AI is awful so it tends to waste time with bite and tail whip while it gets 3hkod with dragon rage. Very good matchup with water pulse, good enough without it.

Arbok, Blackglasses boosted bite beats both rocks in 3 hits. Onix continues to be a non issue, at best it does about 15 damage with rock throw twice, but usually it's nothing. Rhyhorn is only an issue if it uses tail whip, as it makes mega punch do 80% to you. Kanga is another round of "please don't spam mega punch" as it 2hkos you. Thankfully screech + return is enough for a 3 turn ko so you don't need too much luck. Okay matchup, loses points for struggling vs Kanga.

Beedrill, giga drain and brick break 2hko both the rocks although giga drain should Ohko if you aren't -spatk. Kanga is a 3hko with brick break, but mega punch does about 75% in return. Once again you need Kanga to not use a certain move, but it's not so bad considering it can miss and you can live mega punch + bite at full health, and you outspeed unless Rhyhorn used scary face earlier. Solid matchup.



Team- Beedrill, Dragonair, Arbok, Onix (all lvl 38)

Beedrill, in theory it has a lot of advantages, what with being a poison type with a never miss move to deal with smokescreen/minimize spam. In practice aerial ace 4hkos a Koffing and even if you don't get hit with selfdestruct you still just get destroyed by Muk.

Dragonair, shed skin is nice for not instantly losing to a random sludge poison/toxic, and dragon rage is good for 2hkos on the Koffings. Muk is a real mess however, since you 4hko it with dragon rage, minimize spam is awful and you're often poisoned. Thunder wave helps, and using surf + 3 dragon rages makes it very rare for Koga to heal at least, however this matchup is essentially just hoping for good shed skin + accuracy luck. Koffing number 2 is obviously easy provided it doesn't explode, and Weezing isn't too bad thanks to dragon rage ignoring it's huge defenses, as long as it doesn't spam smokescreen while you're poisoned. Pretty good matchup overall but loses points for not handling Muk reliably at all.

Arbok, can beat most of Koga's team, but needs healing for a sweep. Koffings are ohkos with screech + return, Muk is annoying as usual due to acid armor nullifying screech and minimize being minimize. I found it best to use 3 returns + hyper beam to avoid Muk being healed, and using screech whenever he uses acid armor. Trying to use screech enough to make hyper beam ohko is unreliable because of acid armor spam making it very likely you miss more screeches than he loses turns to paralysis, although it is technically faster if you can get 2 screeches in right away. Weezing can be annoying if you've been in the whole fight and have low accuracy from Koffings, but if Arbok switches in to it at above 40ish% then using screech, return and hyper beam will win. Not a bad matchup, hindered by accuracy mostly.

Onix, not a bad matchup considering you have 45 base attack vs mons with high defense. Screech is the key here, as using it twice on everything means you generally have enough rock slide pp to make up for all the misses. Dig is bad vs Muk since more often than not you just give it 2 free turns to minimize/acid armor, and still deal less damage than 2 rock slides. Speaking of Muk, it isn't too bad as it can't hurt you much unless it goes for toxic or gets a sludge poison. At least one pecha berry/antidote is mandatory however, as otherwise you almost always lose to toxic before a sweep is possible. Solid matchup overall, although took a few tries due to accuracy.

Thoughts on the team rn,
:Arbok: I don't see leaving E at this point tbh. If Koga and Erika were good type matchups and it still struggled then I dont see it getting better vs all the Psychic, Ghost and Rock types later on. Screech + Hyper beam is good if you have the time to set up, which intimidate and glare are helpful with. Time will tell how it does vs late game however.

:beedrill: Frailty and low BP moves are really starting to show vs fights like Koga and Rivals. Still does good in matchups where the competition is weak to it and outsped, but not sure how many more of those are left. I would say D tier so far but that will probably change later on.

:dragonair: Is fairly well rounded and good at this stage of the game, Dragon rage is an awesome move that helps it vs basically everything, although no real stab hurts. Shed skin is surprisingly useful to deal with status, although offenses have been just a bit lacking and getting it early costs more than most mons, so I would say D for now.

:onix: Now this guy is just awful. Sometimes just loses matchups you would expect it to do at least decent in (Giovanni 1, Koga), struggles offensively due to unreliable rock stab and bad ground stab before the E4 and has no good stats outside of huge defense and good enough speed, everything else is miserable. Terrible Spdef and HP especially mean it folds not just to any water/grass move, but basically any special attack. Screech is valuable at least, but not enough to save it from E.
 
More logs, a bit late due to exams but oh well, better late then never.

Team- Onix lvl 24 Beedrill lvl 29 (30 after Kadabra) Arbok lvl 30

Onix, performs very well vs every member of the Rival's team, except for the psychics. Hard walled by Exeggcute due to leech seed and it's bulk, also takes too much from confusion. Technically 1v1s Kadabra but takes too much from confusion. Gyarados doesn't have a water move yet, although bite kinda stings due to being special. Accuracy drops and rock slide being innacurate already further complicate a sweep, but it as long as something else beats the psychic types it does good.

Beedrill, basically the exact opposite of Onix. Outspeeds and Ohkos both psychics, has a hard time against everything else. It can beat one of Pidgeotto, Gyarados or Charmeleon, but has a hard time beating 2 of them, and never all 3 without insane luck.

Arbok, only weak to the psychics, and Kadabra wasn't an issue for me due to being overlevelved from switch training Onix in Rock tunnel. Despite the level difference, confusion still hits hard (about 40%) but I could outspeed and Ohko it with secret power. Still a bad matchup there however as you need to be quite overleveled to avoid big damage from it. Exeggecute is worse as it doesn't die to a single bite and can be a nuisance with any of confusion/reflect/hypnosis. As for the rest of his team, secret power is a 2hko (most of the time) on Pidgeotto and a 3hko vs the others. For Gyarados in particular you should switch out and come in later (weather that means letting another member chip Gyara or fainting your HM slave.) so that you can intimidate it without having lowered attack yourself. Overall not the worst matchup, but don't count on a sweep.

Notes, you can technically use Dratini for this fight, however it would require grinding since Celadon literally just became available and there's no mandatory trainers between there and the tower. In LG it's at lvl 24 and could be useful, but you also probably won't afford without going far out of your way for money. Even though it's cheaper in FR I still had to sell a lot of my CD collection for it, and just barely had enough.


Team- Dratini lvl 26 Onix lvl 26 Arbok lvl 30 Beedrill lvl 30

Dratini, despite your main attack dealing fixed damage, this battle is very luck based. Technically it's a bad matchup, as if Victreebell just spams acid you lose, or have low enough health that Tangela finishes you off. However sometimes Erika just decides spamming stun spore on a pokemon with shed skin is the best move, and won't attack. If that's the case then Tangela is hardly a threat. Vileplume is essentially a more threatening version of Victreebell, although despite me spending 20+ turns waiting for it in a test run, it never actually uses sleep powder and might be more likely to spam stun spore than Victreebell. What all this means is that a sweep, while possible (I got one in about 12 attempts) is very unlikely. It's more likely that you KO Vic and maybe Tangela, and then die to Vileplume. Could also switch in after KOing Vic with something else and beat the last two, either way 2 KOs is not bad.

Onix, about as bad of a matchup as possible. Giga drain from anything will Ohko, so you would need to get insane luck with rock slide flinches to win, which just isn't happening.

Beedrill, makes good use of the aerial ace tm for this fight, as it 2-3hkos every member of Erika's team. You will almost always be paralyzed, but you resist every move they have so you need to be seriously unlucky to lose from it. Tried a few times without aerial ace (in case you used it on something else), Could reliably beat Tangela and 1 of Vic or Vileplume unless I lost 3+ turns to paralysis. Very good matchup with aerial ace, decent without it.

Arbok, resisting every move is nice, but is quite hindered from the very likely paralysis from Vic. Losing as few as 2 turns can be a death sentence, because despite the resistance you don't have the bulk to take attacks and shrug them off. Doesn't help that every mon is effectively a 3hko due to screech + 2 secret powers being the best way to deal damage. A sweep is possible, but fairly unlikely with screech accuracy + para chance. Some move choice notes, glare can be helpful, especially vs Vileplume. Vic is usually fine without it being paralyzed, but it's nice in the final stretch. Erika only uses one full heal, and only on Tangela or Vileplume, so getting rid of it by paralyzing Tangela is better to get a clear shot at Vileplume. You could buy hyper beam at the dept. store and use it with screech for (probably) Ohkos, I didn't because I had very little money after buying Dratini, but it is a valid option for this fight.


Team- Onix lvl 27 Dragonair lvl 30 Arbok lvl 30 Beedrill lvl 30

Onix, Rhyhorn and the opposing Onix are both very good matchups, since they can barely scratch you and screech + 2 digs kos both. However Onix sucks and cannot reliably beat Kangaskhan. Bite being special means you get 3hkod by it + any chip damage, thankfully mega punch does very little even with tail whip. Onix only 4hkos in return with 2 screeches + 2 rock slides, so you basically just have to hope Kanga never uses bite. Mediocre performance considering the only things it beats die to any special move so it's not super important.

Dragonair, wrecks Onix and Rhyhorn (I used water pulse, but if you used it already then dragon rage works with a 2hko), so again Kangaskhan is the only issue. Mega punch is a 2hko on you, but since gen 3 AI is awful so it tends to waste time with bite and tail whip while it gets 3hkod with dragon rage. Very good matchup with water pulse, good enough without it.

Arbok, Blackglasses boosted bite beats both rocks in 3 hits. Onix continues to be a non issue, at best it does about 15 damage with rock throw twice, but usually it's nothing. Rhyhorn is only an issue if it uses tail whip, as it makes mega punch do 80% to you. Kanga is another round of "please don't spam mega punch" as it 2hkos you. Thankfully screech + return is enough for a 3 turn ko so you don't need too much luck. Okay matchup, loses points for struggling vs Kanga.

Beedrill, giga drain and brick break 2hko both the rocks although giga drain should Ohko if you aren't -spatk. Kanga is a 3hko with brick break, but mega punch does about 75% in return. Once again you need Kanga to not use a certain move, but it's not so bad considering it can miss and you can live mega punch + bite at full health, and you outspeed unless Rhyhorn used scary face earlier. Solid matchup.



Team- Beedrill, Dragonair, Arbok, Onix (all lvl 38)

Beedrill, in theory it has a lot of advantages, what with being a poison type with a never miss move to deal with smokescreen/minimize spam. In practice aerial ace 4hkos a Koffing and even if you don't get hit with selfdestruct you still just get destroyed by Muk.

Dragonair, shed skin is nice for not instantly losing to a random sludge poison/toxic, and dragon rage is good for 2hkos on the Koffings. Muk is a real mess however, since you 4hko it with dragon rage, minimize spam is awful and you're often poisoned. Thunder wave helps, and using surf + 3 dragon rages makes it very rare for Koga to heal at least, however this matchup is essentially just hoping for good shed skin + accuracy luck. Koffing number 2 is obviously easy provided it doesn't explode, and Weezing isn't too bad thanks to dragon rage ignoring it's huge defenses, as long as it doesn't spam smokescreen while you're poisoned. Pretty good matchup overall but loses points for not handling Muk reliably at all.

Arbok, can beat most of Koga's team, but needs healing for a sweep. Koffings are ohkos with screech + return, Muk is annoying as usual due to acid armor nullifying screech and minimize being minimize. I found it best to use 3 returns + hyper beam to avoid Muk being healed, and using screech whenever he uses acid armor. Trying to use screech enough to make hyper beam ohko is unreliable because of acid armor spam making it very likely you miss more screeches than he loses turns to paralysis, although it is technically faster if you can get 2 screeches in right away. Weezing can be annoying if you've been in the whole fight and have low accuracy from Koffings, but if Arbok switches in to it at above 40ish% then using screech, return and hyper beam will win. Not a bad matchup, hindered by accuracy mostly.

Onix, not a bad matchup considering you have 45 base attack vs mons with high defense. Screech is the key here, as using it twice on everything means you generally have enough rock slide pp to make up for all the misses. Dig is bad vs Muk since more often than not you just give it 2 free turns to minimize/acid armor, and still deal less damage than 2 rock slides. Speaking of Muk, it isn't too bad as it can't hurt you much unless it goes for toxic or gets a sludge poison. At least one pecha berry/antidote is mandatory however, as otherwise you almost always lose to toxic before a sweep is possible. Solid matchup overall, although took a few tries due to accuracy.

Thoughts on the team rn,
:Arbok: I don't see leaving E at this point tbh. If Koga and Erika were good type matchups and it still struggled then I dont see it getting better vs all the Psychic, Ghost and Rock types later on. Screech + Hyper beam is good if you have the time to set up, which intimidate and glare are helpful with. Time will tell how it does vs late game however.

:beedrill: Frailty and low BP moves are really starting to show vs fights like Koga and Rivals. Still does good in matchups where the competition is weak to it and outsped, but not sure how many more of those are left. I would say D tier so far but that will probably change later on.

:dragonair: Is fairly well rounded and good at this stage of the game, Dragon rage is an awesome move that helps it vs basically everything, although no real stab hurts. Shed skin is surprisingly useful to deal with status, although offenses have been just a bit lacking and getting it early costs more than most mons, so I would say D for now.

:onix: Now this guy is just awful. Sometimes just loses matchups you would expect it to do at least decent in (Giovanni 1, Koga), struggles offensively due to unreliable rock stab and bad ground stab before the E4 and has no good stats outside of huge defense and good enough speed, everything else is miserable. Terrible Spdef and HP especially mean it folds not just to any water/grass move, but basically any special attack. Screech is valuable at least, but not enough to save it from E.
doesn't beedrill learn swords dance? should be pretty dope if you could get that.

at any rate, good to see beedrill putting in work. access to brick break and giga drain seems pretty nifty.
 
Thoughts on the team rn,
:Arbok: I don't see leaving E at this point tbh. If Koga and Erika were good type matchups and it still struggled then I dont see it getting better vs all the Psychic, Ghost and Rock types later on. Screech + Hyper beam is good if you have the time to set up, which intimidate and glare are helpful with. Time will tell how it does vs late game however.

:beedrill: Frailty and low BP moves are really starting to show vs fights like Koga and Rivals. Still does good in matchups where the competition is weak to it and outsped, but not sure how many more of those are left. I would say D tier so far but that will probably change later on.

:dragonair: Is fairly well rounded and good at this stage of the game, Dragon rage is an awesome move that helps it vs basically everything, although no real stab hurts. Shed skin is surprisingly useful to deal with status, although offenses have been just a bit lacking and getting it early costs more than most mons, so I would say D for now.

:onix: Now this guy is just awful. Sometimes just loses matchups you would expect it to do at least decent in (Giovanni 1, Koga), struggles offensively due to unreliable rock stab and bad ground stab before the E4 and has no good stats outside of huge defense and good enough speed, everything else is miserable. Terrible Spdef and HP especially mean it folds not just to any water/grass move, but basically any special attack. Screech is valuable at least, but not enough to save it from E.
This is going about as expected, though I didn't consider Screech for Onix which does make it a fair bit better. I feel a good earlygame performance can -just- save a mon from E such as Beedrill, so even if it's dead weight after this point I think D sounds about right. Thank you for the data!
 
why is charmander in a, Kurona? they have no good matchups in the endgame with the elite four except maybe agatha, jynx, and lance's dragonair. in the early game they struggle against brock and misty, and their midgame performance kinda mandates dig and/or mega attacks.
 
It’s part of why I’m testing it right now. The main thing is that there’s never really a point after Misty where it’s dead weight (and it certainly has more good league matchups than that). May be subject to change upon more testing, though.
 
It’s part of why I’m testing it right now. The main thing is that there’s never really a point after Misty where it’s dead weight (and it certainly has more good league matchups than that). May be subject to change upon more testing, though.
interesting. how far are you so far?

if only i could get fr/lg for the 3ds...
 
interesting. how far are you so far?

if only i could get fr/lg for the 3ds...
I'm unfortunately just at Erika right now; work's been blocking my progress.

If you're wanting FRLG, in my experience it's not too hard to find it for a cheap price (like less than £10) on ebay. Though I'm not sure what your region is and it could depend on that
 
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