Metagame Pokébilities

Byleth · Apr 10, 2024

Izmagack said:
Braviary-H is one of the biggest threats in this tier as has been said time and time again by players who are much better at the game than me. However IMO it has a lot of flexibility. The item choice is obvious and Psychic + Hurricane are auto includes, but what about the EV spread / nature or the other two moves? I’ve seen people running bulky sets with three attacks + roost, fast three attack + agility sets, and even two attacks + both roost and agility (I do not advise doing this). Is shadow ball better because it hits more for super effective or is heat wave better because it covers more? Are bulky or fast sets better? I’d love to know y’all’s thoughts :)

I think because of the amount of unaware and somewhat passive answers in general you'll want to run fast sets more often than not. If you are going to run a third attack, go Heat Wave over Shadow Ball as you will hit Ghosts and Psychics hard enough with your stabs where Heat Wave can be an accurate option to delete steels as opposed to Hurricane. As for my standard :braviary-hisui:

set, it goes as follows:

:sv/braviary-hisui:

Braviary-Hisui @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Agility
- Calm Mind
- Psychic
- Hurricane

This is a set I've run on my Hyper Offense team, here. Tera Flying removes Braviary's weakness to Sucker Punch so Kingambit takes longer to properly answer it or fails under screens, and honestly you don't really hit much with Heat Wave besides a select amt of steels if you don't want to tera/miss bc Tera Flying Hurricane will cover that anyway. Agility is a 100% must on all sets because the speed is terrible and it's strong enough to where one agility vs an offensive team without priority will win the game easily.

Tera Flying over Psychic or defensive abilities is what I prefer if you can afford screens, because the power is just extremely noticeable (i factored sheer force + tinted in all these calcs):

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Tera Flying Braviary-Hisui Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 265-312 (57.2 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Tinted Lens Tera Flying Braviary-Hisui Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Goodra-Hisui: 198-234 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Tera Flying Braviary-Hisui Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 398-468 (101 - 118.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Tera Flying Braviary-Hisui Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 320-377 (49 - 57.8%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Tera Flying Braviary-Hisui Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Reuniclus: 294-346 (69.3 - 81.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Tinted Lens Tera Flying Braviary-Hisui Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Corviknight: 416-491 (104 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO (ohko's where heat wave doesn't)

As you can see Tera Flying Hurricane does an absurd amount of damage that absolutely 0 defensive tera's can save you from, and at +1 it basically 2hko's the entire tier (thanks tinted) and at +0 it OHKO's anything not specially bulky. A bulkier set that has like Heavy Duty Boots could seem appealing for longevity but I feel like it would lose the stupid breaking power SFLO max Sp Attack provides.

While I'm here, I'll drop 2 teams I have had pretty easy success with as well.

Pokebilities Rain (1394 ladder Peak)

Since female Basculegion is gone, male has to take its place but it can technically deal more damage anyway and being restricted to just water coverage only really hurts vs mola clod water pon or hydrapple since you OHKO nearly everything else with Wave Crash. 4 Water moves instead of something to hit Clodsire with Ability Shield is worth it, since spamming liquidation when you are at low HP ruins teams that try to make Basculegion die to recoil. I also have a team member that almost always forces Clodsire in to check it, which is Belly Drum Azumarill. The idea is that you Belly Drum and force Clodsire to eat the Knock Off since it will a lot of times be the only answer to Azumarill in rain on a team. Once it does, Clodsire has no ability shield to protect it from Basculegion and then you win that way. If that isn't enough then you have the triple steel rain core in Archaludon Kingambit and Iron Treads who don't need much explanation, standard rain picks that do good in this meta.

Forced Knock Off on Clodsire to win with Basculegion https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9pokebilities-2097889971
Vs Same team Water Absorb Clod (didn't kill Clod to win) https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9pokebilities-2097847371?p2
Vs Fat https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9pokebilities-2093810412
Vs Opposing Rain https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9pokebilities-2093818181?p2

Anti Hazards Stall (1496 ladder Peak) 32-3

Team is currently 32-3 on the ladder (just missed 1500 elo by 6 points and fell to tilt) but besides that, this team basically disregards any team that banks on winning through hazards and has a grand total of 3 Knock Off absorbers in Clefable and Reuniclus who will never take damage because of Magic Guard and Hydrapple who can't have its item removed because of Sticky Hold. This means the team is very easy to keep healthy and switch in to a lot of offensive threats at all time. Rocky Helmet Clefable is there to ruin most physical attackers without Rocky Helmet, with Tera Steel teched to force strong pokemon like Facade Ursaring to take more Rocky Helmet Chip and to wall Cinccino that has Protective Pads. Rest of team is probably self explanitory, really good team I've been proud of, unfortunately it may struggle to some minor stuff like Wish Pass + breaker it can't deal with or a well placed Swords Dance Tinkaton but other than that team rarely loses when played right.

biesbas · Friday at 5:04 AM

I just noticed Lunala isn't listed as 'banned' in the OP, but it is banned on showdown.

Imperator Romanum · Saturday at 10:35 AM

I think further discussion on Basculegion and Braviary-Hisui is warranted. I've played 138 matches across my main account "Grains of Salt" and alt "its GOS" and I'm currently sitting at nr 1 on the ladder. I've had great success using both Braviary-Hisui and Basculegion on offensive teams.

Both Basculegion and Braviary-Hisui are increndibly restricting on teambuilding in the current metagame. Depending on the set there's almost no reliable switch ins.

Basculegion is increndibly strong and fast under rain, while still being surprisingly bulky. Adaptability choice bande tera water wave crash under rain has is almost impossible to switch into. Even 4x resists struggle to survive two hits in a row. Because of mold breaker you need to run ability shield on your water absorb mons, like Clodsire. However, as such counter measures become more prevelant Basculegion can easily switch up its moveset to counter that with coverage like psychic fangs and crunch.

I agree with the council that Basculegion-F had to go for the reasons they stated. They named the lack of adequate ghost stab and wave crash recoil as the reasons for allowing Basculegion-M to stay, which I concur are a problem for it. However, I still think Basculegion is too much for the metagame to handle. With 120 HP Basculegion-M is capable of firing of multiple wave crashes before fainting. It will die in the process, but not before blowing massive holes in your opponents team. I've found great success running a moveslot of 4 water moves. Wave crash for damage, flip turn for momentum, Aqua jet for priority and 50/50s with King Gambit/Raging Bolt. The last move can be liqudation for a water stab without recoil, psychic fangs for Clodsire, Ice Fang for Hydrapple and Phantom Force for stab to beat Clodsire if they don't have a normal type. 99% of the time you just click one of your water stabs anyways.

Calcs with tera water choice banded adamant Basculegion Wave Crash/Psychic Fangs/Ice Fang under rain vs:
252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola in Rain: 272-320 (50.9 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
248 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex in Rain: 175-207 (57.7 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
244 HP / 248+ Def Tera Water Gliscor in Rain: 203-239 (57.6 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Water Corviknight in Rain: 229-270 (57.2 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 HP / 252+ Def Hydrapple: 284-336 (68.2 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
248 HP / 252+ Def Clodsire: 272-320 (58.7 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 HP / 252+ Def Archaludon in Rain: 197-233 (51.3 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo in Rain: 215-253 (42.6 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult in Rain: 415-489 (130.9 - 154.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Water Garganacl in Rain: 197-233 (48.7 - 57.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring in Rain: 189-222 (62.7 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
64 HP / 28 Def Raging Bolt in Rain: 344-405 (84.5 - 99.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 HP / 4 Def Azumarill in Rain: 392-462 (97 - 114.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Braviary-Hisui is an increndibly potentent wallbreaker. Byleth has already highlighted the most important points and calcs here, so I won't dwell on it. Depending on the set Braviary-Hisui has no reliable switch. The life orb duel dance set Byleth posted is probably the most consistent set, but choice specs has essentially no switch ins. Specs modest tera flying hurricane 2HKOs max sp.def assault vest slowking-galar and does 41.4-48.4 to the standard blissey set.

I hope we can have a discussion/poll on both of these monsters, as they're currently having a massive impact on the metagame and teambuilding.

typhlosion787 · Tuesday at 7:29 AM

Imperator Romanum said:
I think further discussion on Basculegion and Braviary-Hisui is warranted. I've played 138 matches across my main account "Grains of Salt" and alt "its GOS" and I'm currently sitting at nr 1 on the ladder. I've had great success using both Braviary-Hisui and Basculegion on offensive teams.

View attachment 624150

Both Basculegion and Braviary-Hisui are increndibly restricting on teambuilding in the current metagame. Depending on the set there's almost no reliable switch ins.
View attachment 624149

Basculegion is increndibly strong and fast under rain, while still being surprisingly bulky. Adaptability choice bande tera water wave crash under rain has is almost impossible to switch into. Even 4x resists struggle to survive two hits in a row. Because of mold breaker you need to run ability shield on your water absorb mons, like Clodsire. However, as such counter measures become more prevelant Basculegion can easily switch up its moveset to counter that with coverage like psychic fangs and crunch.

I agree with the council that Basculegion-F had to go for the reasons they stated. They named the lack of adequate ghost stab and wave crash recoil as the reasons for allowing Basculegion-M to stay, which I concur are a problem for it. However, I still think Basculegion is too much for the metagame to handle. With 120 HP Basculegion-M is capable of firing of multiple wave crashes before fainting. It will die in the process, but not before blowing massive holes in your opponents team. I've found great success running a moveslot of 4 water moves. Wave crash for damage, flip turn for momentum, Aqua jet for priority and 50/50s with King Gambit/Raging Bolt. The last move can be liqudation for a water stab without recoil, psychic fangs for Clodsire, Ice Fang for Hydrapple and Phantom Force for stab to beat Clodsire if they don't have a normal type. 99% of the time you just click one of your water stabs anyways.

Calcs with tera water choice banded adamant Basculegion Wave Crash/Psychic Fangs/Ice Fang under rain vs:
252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola in Rain: 272-320 (50.9 - 59.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
248 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex in Rain: 175-207 (57.7 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
244 HP / 248+ Def Tera Water Gliscor in Rain: 203-239 (57.6 - 67.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Water Corviknight in Rain: 229-270 (57.2 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 HP / 252+ Def Hydrapple: 284-336 (68.2 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
248 HP / 252+ Def Clodsire: 272-320 (58.7 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 HP / 252+ Def Archaludon in Rain: 197-233 (51.3 - 60.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo in Rain: 215-253 (42.6 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult in Rain: 415-489 (130.9 - 154.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Water Garganacl in Rain: 197-233 (48.7 - 57.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring in Rain: 189-222 (62.7 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
64 HP / 28 Def Raging Bolt in Rain: 344-405 (84.5 - 99.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 HP / 4 Def Azumarill in Rain: 392-462 (97 - 114.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

View attachment 624163

Braviary-Hisui is an increndibly potentent wallbreaker. Byleth has already highlighted the most important points and calcs here, so I won't dwell on it. Depending on the set Braviary-Hisui has no reliable switch. The life orb duel dance set Byleth posted is probably the most consistent set, but choice specs has essentially no switch ins. Specs modest tera flying hurricane 2HKOs max sp.def assault vest slowking-galar and does 41.4-48.4 to the standard blissey set.

I hope we can have a discussion/poll on both of these monsters, as they're currently having a massive impact on the metagame and teambuilding.

Another recent development with Hisuian Braviary is the advent of Vacuum Wave. Yes, you're hurting yourself, but you also have priority for things like Gambit and slower mons with priority. I will say that both have definitely grown in terms of threat level. I do still stand by my belief of Chien-Pao and Arch being bigger issues at the moment, but from what I have played personally (bring top 200 on the ladder) and from what I've spectated, these two have, at least seemingly, had an unhealthy and warping effect on the meta, even leading to thinks like tera dark Brambleghast and Kilowattrel

InkyDarkBird · 2024-04-17T22:02:17-0400

The only viable stall Pokemon that can wall Braviary-Hisui is Umbreon, which is unhealthy since there is no other reason to use Umbreon. Also, a funny interaction is that Shiftry completely counters standard Braviary-Hisui sets. Braviary-Hisui can use Psyshock as well, easily 2HKOing Blissey with Choice Specs and having a high chance to 2HKO with Life Orb.
I've personally had few issues with Basculegion because Alomomola Rocky Helmet can chip it down quickly.

typhlosion787 · 2024-04-17T22:15:21-0400

InkyDarkBird said:
The only viable stall Pokemon that can wall Braviary-Hisui is Umbreon, which is unhealthy since there is no other reason to use Umbreon. Also, a funny interaction is that Shiftry completely counters standard Braviary-Hisui sets. Braviary-Hisui can use Psyshock as well, easily 2HKOing Blissey with Choice Specs and having a high chance to 2HKO with Life Orb.
I've personally had few issues with Basculegion because Alomomola Rocky Helmet can chip it down quickly.

Even Umbreon isn't an amazing check with Hurricane because while you do have less than a 1/2 chance to hit both, Hurricane has a 96.1% chance to 2HKO a max SpDef Umbreon after Rocks. That's not even taking tera fighting Vacuum Wave into account

InkyDarkBird · 2024-04-17T23:57:13-0400

typhlosion787 said:
Even Umbreon isn't an amazing check with Hurricane because while you do have less than a 1/2 chance to hit both, Hurricane has a 96.1% chance to 2HKO a max SpDef Umbreon after Rocks. That's not even taking tera fighting Vacuum Wave into account

Well, it's the only stall Pokemon that can at least threaten to 2HKO Braviary-Hisui while not dying itself.

typhlosion787 · 2024-04-18T00:08:00-0400

InkyDarkBird said:
Well, it's the only stall Pokemon that can at least threaten to 2HKO Braviary-Hisui while not dying itself.

It's unviable other than that role, though. And most H Braviary sets run max speed, so if you choose to invest speed in hope of outspeeding, you're just making harder to not get 2HKOd. It's a very specific mon that has no other legitimate role as Wish passing is a role it's entirely outclassed in by Alomomola

typhlosion787 · 2024-04-18T03:14:50-0400

So, the meta is in quite a controversial state right now; and as co-leader, I do feel it's proper to share my own opinions on these problems that exist within the meta. I'm not going to start a public vote, but I would like to gather opinions from the general public about their opinions on the meta and how to fix it. I always find discussion a better way to handle tiering action compared to votes when dealing with metagames that have a significantly smaller playerbase such as our own. Now, onto my opinions on the problems

Chien-Pao: I've only seen three people, including myself, mention Chien, but this mon is absolutely problematic. Yes, the usage is low, but a lot of that can be attributed to the fact that many more casual players don't look at forums to check what has been unbanned before hopping into the meta. Azumarill being the best mon in the meta helps for sure, but even with the small stop gap slowing it down, that has proven to not be enough to make Chien a healthy presence for the tier.
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Azumarill: 197-232 (48.7 - 57.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
All Chien needs to do to invalidate Azu if it's out of Jet range is to simply tera dark. Nothing is able to repeatedly stave off Chien repeatedly, even Tauros Aqua and Blaze can be smacked by Psychic Fangs. Definitely the biggest issue at the moment imo.

Archaludon: Arch has been doing the same things it was in base OU, and I personally believe it's just as unhealthy for the meta as it was in OU. None of the pokemon that gain high usage in pokebilities are able to fend off Arch. Clod has again been the only mon that has been able to do so, but even despite this, many Archs have started running Earthquake to deal with Clod and be on their way, completely nullifying it's biggest check
0 Atk Archaludon Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Clodsire: 224-264 (48.3 - 57%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO

H Braviary: This thing has had a crazy journey. From me saying it would only be useful on Trick Room to realizing it doesn't fit on Trick Room and is much better on Webs and para spam teams to now running Agility the majority of the time, the one thing that had stayed consistent for a while was priority checking, even if not countering, this avian. With the advent of Vacuum Wave, especially in tandem with tera fighting, though, I personally believe this mon has been pushed over the edge by a fair amount. Yes, it does deal damage to itself if it uses Vacuum Wave, but overwriting priority from Azu and Gambit due to speed tiers alone is huge. That's not all, though. It opens up more opportunities for Braviary to come in due to ability to revenge kill. Yes, it still has the Stealth Rocks weakness, which sucks. Yes, it struggles with 4 moveslot syndrome, but that doesn't stop it from using the versatility it has to blitz through the majority of teams effortlessly. Psychic and Hurricane are guaranteed, but the last two are a toss up and there's a lot of moves you want. U-Turn, Heat Wave, Agility, Calm Mind, Roost, Vacuum Wave, Defog, several great options. Even despite this, though, it hasn't lowered Braviary H's impact on the tier. It was teetering on the edge of brokenness for a bit, but with Vacuum Wave becoming more common, it is absolutely problematic right now imo.

Basculegion M: I was originally against a Basc M ban, but with most of them swapping Liquidation out for Psychic Fangs, this thing has gotten so much more broken.
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Water Basculegion Psychic Fangs vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Clodsire: 374-440 (80.7 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Dondozo, Alomomola, and Hydrapple are really the only things that can hard stop Basc M in Rain after tera and Rocks without being forced into tera themselves. Even some 4x resist mons such as Wake aren't able to deal with the sheer damag output of Basc.
252 Atk Choice Band Adaptability Tera Water Basculegion Wave Crash vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Walking Wake in Rain: 160-189 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
All these pokemon are definitely good, but Hydrapple and Dondozo are almost exclusively used on stall teams and don't fit well on many archetypes. Alo is used on balance as well and not just stall, which makes it much more reliable, but even with that and the fact that Basc M will take itself out over the course of the game, the carnage it leaves in the aftermath is too much to recover from in the extreme majority of situations. I originally thought that it taking itself out and the water resists would hold it back enough, but I have been proven wrong.

Clefable?!: I personally don't believe Clef as a whole to be too much. So why do I mention it? Well, in the OM discord, I've seen a few complaints (and complained myself) about one specific set, Cosmic Clef. I still don't believe Clef in general to be problematic, but I do think the Cosmic set is bordering that level of broken. The big way to deal with Cosmic sets is speed invested Weezings with Haze or tera dark/steel Clodsire. It is incredibly strong, but it did take over a week for these strategies for Cosmic Clef to start picking up, so maybe we'll see more phasing moves or Haze users in the coming weeks. I don't think Clef is too big an issue right now, especially compared to the other mons on the chopping block.

Like I stated earlier, please feel free to give your own thoughts as well along with adding to the discussion of which mons you feel may belong in this discussion. It's much harder to get tiering action accomplished in OMotMs due to their limited time frame, and having the general public give their opinions speeds up the process by a ton.

Metagame Pokébilities

Byleth

Retirement

biesbas

Imperator Romanum

typhlosion787

InkyDarkBird

typhlosion787

InkyDarkBird

typhlosion787

typhlosion787

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