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Metagame Pokébilities
- Thread starter Ivy
- Start date
I know this thread has been dead for a long time, but after doing some play testing (including my own draft league), I think there needs to be some serious discussion on Phermosa. With its combination of insane offensive stats, momentum grabbing and hazard removing capability, and easy sweeping potential, I do believe Phermosa should be suspected for side servers that run pokebilities, if not, banned.
Counters:
Like several other pokemon, one of the only solid counters is galarian Weezing. Being immune to Drill Run with Levitate and resistant to both stabs, Phermosa can't really do much outside of Ice Beam on mixed and special sets. However, one singular pokemon being the only counter to one pokemon is simply uncompetitive and unhealthy for a metagame, especially when that same pokemon is also made to check or counter several other pokemon at the same time. To add on to that, Geezing also gets worn down quickly from chip damage such as hazards, weather, and things such as Magma Storm trap damage and Leech Seed. Because of this, one has to choose what they use Geezing to counter very carefully and specifically since its only forms of recovery are Protect (only 6% extra recovery from Black Sludge), Rest (puts you to sleep and can you even use it in Misty Terrain?), and Pain Split (which often doesn't heal significant enough amounts of damage and can even backfire if your opponent switches in a pokemon with a lower HP number than Geezing). And even if Geezing did have a move like Recover, Phermosa can just U-Turn out, giving momentum for the player.
Coverage:
Phermosa's coverage isn't the best, but it perfectly covers all types that resists both of its stabs. Triple Axel for flying types, Poison Jab for fairies, Drill Run for poison types, and Throat Chop for ghost types. Contact punishing abilities can be nice to assist in weakening Phermosa's ability to wreak havoc, such as the Kanto birds (except Articuno), and contact punishment isn't even too reliable because of Protective Pads and U-Turn, making the pokemon that should be weakening Phermosa with said contact punishment just be turned into momentum for the Phermosa user.
Power:
While Phermosa's base 137 attack and spatk may not be the best in SS, but it's still really solid. However, this base 137 attack becomes more impressive when you add on that Phermosa can reliably run Adamant or Modest instead of Jolly or Timid. That in tandem with different possible items like Life Orb, Expert Belt, and the Choice items give it enough power to be debatable for being too overpowered on its own, but the banning argument becomes even stronger when you look into Phermosa's ability, which can either boost its speed, making sure scarf users can't revenge kill without priority moves, or one of its attacking stats, giving it nasty snowball capability with the afformentioned coverage and lack of checks.
Conclusion:
Due to the lack of counters, coverage that covers all types that resist both stabs, and overwhelming offensive prowess with its ability to quickly snowball, I believe Phermosa is an easy choice to suspect. Its ability to force kills every time it comes out and simply U-Turn every time it is in a disadvantageous position adds on to the argument to ban it. While it may not be too common, I don't think usage is too fair of an argument because several people don't read the forums and don't know which pokemon have been banned/unbanned from certain metas, and therefore, just use pokemon that are legal in OU that they think can abuse the metagame gimmick very well. As for my thoughts, do I believe Phermosa should be banned? Yes, most definitely. I do believe Phermosa is too overwhelming for the pokebilities meta and needs to be banned.
Counters:
Like several other pokemon, one of the only solid counters is galarian Weezing. Being immune to Drill Run with Levitate and resistant to both stabs, Phermosa can't really do much outside of Ice Beam on mixed and special sets. However, one singular pokemon being the only counter to one pokemon is simply uncompetitive and unhealthy for a metagame, especially when that same pokemon is also made to check or counter several other pokemon at the same time. To add on to that, Geezing also gets worn down quickly from chip damage such as hazards, weather, and things such as Magma Storm trap damage and Leech Seed. Because of this, one has to choose what they use Geezing to counter very carefully and specifically since its only forms of recovery are Protect (only 6% extra recovery from Black Sludge), Rest (puts you to sleep and can you even use it in Misty Terrain?), and Pain Split (which often doesn't heal significant enough amounts of damage and can even backfire if your opponent switches in a pokemon with a lower HP number than Geezing). And even if Geezing did have a move like Recover, Phermosa can just U-Turn out, giving momentum for the player.
Coverage:
Phermosa's coverage isn't the best, but it perfectly covers all types that resists both of its stabs. Triple Axel for flying types, Poison Jab for fairies, Drill Run for poison types, and Throat Chop for ghost types. Contact punishing abilities can be nice to assist in weakening Phermosa's ability to wreak havoc, such as the Kanto birds (except Articuno), and contact punishment isn't even too reliable because of Protective Pads and U-Turn, making the pokemon that should be weakening Phermosa with said contact punishment just be turned into momentum for the Phermosa user.
Power:
While Phermosa's base 137 attack and spatk may not be the best in SS, but it's still really solid. However, this base 137 attack becomes more impressive when you add on that Phermosa can reliably run Adamant or Modest instead of Jolly or Timid. That in tandem with different possible items like Life Orb, Expert Belt, and the Choice items give it enough power to be debatable for being too overpowered on its own, but the banning argument becomes even stronger when you look into Phermosa's ability, which can either boost its speed, making sure scarf users can't revenge kill without priority moves, or one of its attacking stats, giving it nasty snowball capability with the afformentioned coverage and lack of checks.
Conclusion:
Due to the lack of counters, coverage that covers all types that resist both stabs, and overwhelming offensive prowess with its ability to quickly snowball, I believe Phermosa is an easy choice to suspect. Its ability to force kills every time it comes out and simply U-Turn every time it is in a disadvantageous position adds on to the argument to ban it. While it may not be too common, I don't think usage is too fair of an argument because several people don't read the forums and don't know which pokemon have been banned/unbanned from certain metas, and therefore, just use pokemon that are legal in OU that they think can abuse the metagame gimmick very well. As for my thoughts, do I believe Phermosa should be banned? Yes, most definitely. I do believe Phermosa is too overwhelming for the pokebilities meta and needs to be banned.
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So, I agree with the majority of this post on Pheromosa, and I'd like to note that you must be above base 130 to outspeed a non speed boosting Phero. It's bannable for much of the same reasons as OU banned it, even with the increased power level. It's similar to Genesect in set variety and sweeping potential, as well as breaking potential. One thing to note is that yes, GWeez can Rest, as it is technically Levitating and thus not grounded, and thus not affected by Misty Terrain. However, that is inconsistent recovery. In addition, Pheromosa can run Taunt, in order to easily Turn into a Steel or Poison type who can and will set up on the GWeez. However, this does cause it to suffer even more from 4MSS, and is not usually run unless your goal is to set up a Steel type or Poison type wincon like Celesteela. Protective Pads, while an option to avoid the Kantonian Birds and RHelm chip from the likes of the SlowTwins and Corviknight, means that it gives up on the power that allows it to snowball and is used mainly as a means of revenging something or scaring it out to gain momentum, while bluffing Band. While more rare set and possibly more unviable set, Quiver Dance sets do exist, and can beat most of the checks listed above.
+1 252+ SpA Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Weezing-Galar: 224-264 (67 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
0 SpA Weezing-Galar Strange Steam vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Pheromosa: 242-288 (85.5 - 101.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Pheromosa Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zapdos: 368-434 (96 - 113.3%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Pheromosa Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Corviknight: 384-453 (96.2 - 113.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO.
So after any chip, forced by, say, a Conkeldurr in the case of GWeez, or Rocks in the case of Corv, QD sets or Specs sets have the potential to beat all of its Band or LO checks, putting it in a similar situation as Genesect, where you can't deal with it unless you know the set.
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Thank you for clearing the Geezing and Rest thing up. I will agree that Phermosa does have 4MSS and SIS (single item syndrome) along with some trouble choosing natures. However, those 3 issues are monumentally small in a team based game like pokemon where you can build the rest of your team around supporting Phermosa. While you could say the same about the opponent being able to build around Phermosa, the "building around" ends up simply being a team that can only deal with Phermosa and nothing else in many cases because one is often forced to scout item and moveset, likely already losing up to half their team by then
I'll re-ban phero in anticipation of this likely winning OMOTM since it has a favorable MU against even normally overpowered sand teams (using scarf or QD, which again, is a complete guessing game since it's so versatile).
(remind me to ping staff if/when the format programming gets added back to the server to patch the banlist)
(remind me to ping staff if/when the format programming gets added back to the server to patch the banlist)
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Thank you! I was unsure if there was any balancing decisions that would be made in between the metagame returning and the last time it was on showdown because Porygon Z was banned after pokebilities was no longer OMotM during the USUM era, so I thought I'd make an attempt to talk about some of the pokemon I believe to be banworthy.
Been having fun with this dragmag team and was able to maintain 1300s.
https://pokepast.es/c050e1e4b83329bd
Geezing single handedly shuts down many physical attackers that rely heavily on their abilities such as the guts users and cincinno. flamethrower to smack ferrothorn. I saw a body press magnezone when I was laddering so i decided to run 8 speed EVs just to speed creep random uninvested magnezone.
Assault vest reuniclus is very bulky and hits very hard with future sight, killing any opposing Geezings for the dragons to clean up late game. Min speed turns the trick room matchup into a free win.
Defensive Krook keeps dracozolt in check, sets up rocks, and just provides solid utility.
Specs magnet just hits very hard, traps steels, and threatens the fairies.
FInally, Salamence and Dragonite are dragons 1 and 2.
no hazard control because almost everybody is levitating, magic guard, heavy duty boots, or immune to t-spikes and resists stealth rocks. krook or geezing absorbs knock offs to keep the dragon's items intact.
https://pokepast.es/c050e1e4b83329bd
Geezing single handedly shuts down many physical attackers that rely heavily on their abilities such as the guts users and cincinno. flamethrower to smack ferrothorn. I saw a body press magnezone when I was laddering so i decided to run 8 speed EVs just to speed creep random uninvested magnezone.
Assault vest reuniclus is very bulky and hits very hard with future sight, killing any opposing Geezings for the dragons to clean up late game. Min speed turns the trick room matchup into a free win.
Defensive Krook keeps dracozolt in check, sets up rocks, and just provides solid utility.
Specs magnet just hits very hard, traps steels, and threatens the fairies.
FInally, Salamence and Dragonite are dragons 1 and 2.
no hazard control because almost everybody is levitating, magic guard, heavy duty boots, or immune to t-spikes and resists stealth rocks. krook or geezing absorbs knock offs to keep the dragon's items intact.
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Absolutely ecstatic to finally see an official viability ranking. Here are my thoughts on some of the pokemon.Sample teams (always accepting submissions)
Rain
Dual screen HO
Rach's sand
Rach's balance
Rach's phero+SD rilla offense
Ivy's balance
s1mpp's semi-stall
Viability ranking
A+
Clefable
Dracozolt
Reuniclus
A
Hippowdon
Salamence
B+
Azumarill
Garchomp
Gyarados
Hawlucha
Kommo-o
Krookodile
Marowak-Alola
Ninetales-Alola
Rillaboom
Slowbro
Weezing-Galar
B
Blissey
Dragonite
Ferrothorn
Gigalith
Heatran
Kartana
Landorus-Therian
Mamoswine
Porygon2
Slowbro-Galar
Thundurus-Therian
Toxapex
Tyranitar
Weavile
Zeraora
C
Certain use cases can make these relevant with proper team composition.
Alakazam
Amoonguss
Barraskewda
Bisharp
Blacephalon
Bronzong
Chandelure
Cinccino
Cloyster
Crawdaunt
Diggersby
Gastrodon
Gengar
Goodra
Hatterene
Heracross
Hydreigon
Incineroar
Indeedee
Kindra
Melmetal
Mew
Milotic
Mimikyu
Nidoking
Pangoro
Pelipper
Polteageist
Rotom-Wash
Sandaconda
Sandslash-Alola
Scizor
Sigilyph
Skarmory
Slowking-Galar
Stoutland
Tapu Lele
Togekiss
Tyrantrum
Venusaur
Xatu
Zamazenta-Crowned
D
These see some use but are more often than not a burden. Not recommended.
Accelgor
Aggron
Araquanid
Arctovish
Barbaracle
Braviary
Butterfree
Cradily
Druddigon
Eldegoss
Galvantula
Golurk
Hitmontop
Inteleon
Linoone
Machamp
Ninetales
Perrserker
Relicanth
Sceptile
Scolipede
Shuckle
Swoobat
Torkoal
Vanilluxe
Zoroark
Clefable- Easily one of the best pokemon in the metagame, shuts down stall without Geezing along with often shutting down HO because it leaves it with their setup pokemon obsolete, leaving only cleaners and revenge killers.
Conkeldurr- Anyone who's seen my posts on here knows what I think of Conk. With Mosa gone, easily the best pokemon in the metagame, and, in my opinion, too restricting in teambuilding and battling.
Dracozolt- The only thing keeping this mon from being banned is its reliability on weather. So little can actually reliably counter it under sand that it's ridiculous.
Corviknight- Now doesn't even face competition from Skarm in the role of a defensive steel/flying type due to Skarm having Weak Armor. Skarm still does have Toxic, Roar, and hazards, but with Weak Armor, it can't hold a candle to Corviknight.
Pult- Just overall reliable as always, even moreso due to opponents being unable to lower its stats as it doesn't have to choose between Infiltrator and Clear Body anymore along with being able to be an annoyance with Cursed Body.
Mag- Can potentially be absolutely insane, but has trouble reaching said potential due to being the only "real counter" to Zolt and being forced to run Tri-Attack for it along with the loss of Hidden Power in the transition to generation 8.
Azu- Two 4x resists to some of the best attacking types in the game along with two immunities, one to another extremely offensively potent type, the other turning a weakness on its head, and it gets to keep Huge Power? Wild.
Intimoxie mons- Extremely reliable combination of abillities, especially considering 3 get Dragon Dance. Surprised not to see Scrafty mentioned at all on the list. Debatably as good as the others due to status not being a complete counter to it with Shed Skin.
Kommo-o- Keeps Soundproof while getting immunities to many more moves and not taking hail or sandstorm damage. Maybe not the most impressive on paper, but quite good in practice.
Hawlucha- Not too reliant on terrain anymore and can be scary if used properly, but also often struggles.
Alolawak- Free extra immunity without Flare Blitz recoil and ok bulk with Cursed Body annoyance makes this surprisingly amazing.
Slowtwins (not Galar)- Not being able to be Taunted is wild for these mons as it lets them pull off everything they normally do without needing to give up Regenerator
Geezing- Amazing, but often pretty overrated. Glad to see it below A tier. Let me explain: while Geezing is an amazing physical wall that can handle many of the metagame's top offensive threats, that's the problem. It's tasked with handling many threats without any form of reliable recovery, only having Pain Split, Rest, and Protect+Black Sludge. Geezing can also be hit by status despite its own terrain because of Levitate. Without reliable recovery, even despite its Spikes and Toxic Spikes immunity due to Levitate, Geezing gets worn down extremely easily by chip and passive damage, especially if hit with a Knock Off.
Pory2- With PoryZ being banned, I expected Pory2 to be the next big thing. It turned out to be great, but not as overbearing as PZ. Sadly, it has to hold Eviolite, diminishing much of its potential power, but it's also extraordinarily bulky and hits surprisingly hard thanks to Analytic and Download possibly boosting its special attack.
Glowbro- Surprisingly good despite what, on paper, seem like rather meager defensive states. 30% chance to move first each turn and turn the tables on a threat is extremely helpful in tandem with its massive coverage and Regen.
Kanto birds- Zapdos and Molres are just overall solid. Being able to both punish contact and lower PP at twice the rate is amazing in any metagame.
Amoongus- Absorbs T Spikes along with contact punishment and Regen, extremely nice often times.
Bronzong- Honestly just a worse Corviknight. No reliable recovery, no Defog, no Pressure or Mirror Armor, just completely outclassed. Don't get me wrong, it's solid, but there's little reason to use it when Corv exists except Trick Room teams.
Cinccino- 4MSS (4 moveslot syndrome) plus SIS (single item syndrome) along with being walled by every relevant steel type and being extremely heavily contact punished. I've called Cinccino a "noob bait" pokemon before and I stand by that. People think it will be all phenomenal until they start using it and realizing its huge weaknesses. Worn down by hazards, destroyed by contact punishment, not immune to any chip damage, ruined by status (mostly burn and para, but any other status is also tragic), Cinccino is much worse in practice than on paper.
Heracross- Guts+Moxie+Swarm. Gets itself into Swarm easier due to burn damage (Flame Orb is much better than Toxic Orb), hazards, and other forms of residual damage to increase the power of its already stupifying Megahorn. Not only that, but it gets stronger every time it knocks out an opposing pokemon. However, base 85 speed is just ok and Heracross has rather sub-par bulk.
Sigilyph- No need to run boots and it hits everything except 4x resists for neutral damage. However, can be reliant on setup with average bulk and mediocre special attack. Potentially devistating, but often nothing more than an inconvenience with status and Roost.
Machamp- Completely outclassed by both Conk and Heracross as guts fighting users. All Champ really has over them is 100% accurate moves. However, not even close to as devistating as the prior two mentioned pokemon. Even outclassed by Hariyama if it was in the gen 8 dex because Hariyama has both Thick Fat and Sheer Force along with Guts. Machamp's only accolades are not being worse than Throh as a Guts fighter and being better than Hariyama by default because Hariyama isn't in the gen 8 pokedex.
Mienshao- Not mentioned on the list, but I personally think it's around B+. Not completely outclassed by conk as its speed tier allows it to threatening to certain pokemon Conk can't threaten due to its low speed. Reckless making HJK 156 BP before items or stab means you have an absolutely insane stab attack to nuke the opposing pokemon with. Along with that, Mienshao can regain health with Regenerator and come back to wreak even more havoc. To add on to that, Mienshao can't even be Intimidated due to Inner Focus. Couple that with Knock for nice coverage and utility, U-Turn for momentum and recovery, Fake Out for chip damage and breaking Sturdy/Focus Sash, and extra coverage in Blaze Kick, Grass Knot, Acrobatics, Poison Jab, and Stone Edge, you receive an extreme threat. However, there is one main issue that holds it back, status vulnerability. Let's compare Mienshao to some of the A+ tier pokemon. Conk enjoys status as it increases its capability to bust through walls, Clefable and Reuniclus are immune residual damage from status, even if they don't appreciate paralysis taking some of their turns, and Dracozolt can be burned, but at least can't be slowed down and paralyzed due to its electric type. I think Mienshao will enjoy major rises in usage now that Mosa is gone as it now has more room to shine on teams and as a faster, but weaker, counterpart to Conk.
Thanks for using one of my replays for an example battle! I played pretty bad, ngl, but I really do think that battle shows off a lot of the uniqueness of the metagame. And for anyone wondering, the battle wasn't staged. It was actually a draft league battle. I'm definitely not the best person to learn battling or teambuilding from, I mean, you saw how lucky I got at the end with Scald never burning Azu plus never getting hit by Cute Charm that last dance with Milo, but I do have a lot of knowledge of this metagame when it comes to pokemon and their place in the metagame.
I like your team, however I tried it with Hawlucha in place of Dragonite.
Hawlucha @ Misty Seed
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Acrobatics
- Close Combat
- Iron Head
I was for something to help harass stally mons like Clefable and this is the best I could come up with. Mold Breaker ignores Unaware which makes Iron Head more threatening and Unburden lets Lucha outspeed most Slush Rush/Sand Rush users. It's still on the frail end so it can be difficult get in but I think it's a nice fit.
I'm glad people are going back to look at page 1 even when I forget to announce stuff lol. Yeah as typhlosion787 mentioned there's VR up now after a brief review with Rach; I will add Scrafty to C because it's checked by opposing fighting types and its low speed hampers it (moxie boosts are ripe, but it can only do so much at +1 speed) and Mienshao to B.
One pokemon even I forgot to mention was Hitmonlee. It's similar to Hawlucha, but also different in the fact that it can take use of things like Normal Gem. White Herb is also ok for Curse sets and to try to offset an Intimidater coming in, but Lee does have a few struggles. Unlike Lucha, it can have trouble busting through things because it only has one stab and its only setup options are Curse and Bulk Up while Hawlucha sets up twice as fast with SD. Lucha also has much higher base speed, 118 compared to 87, that allows it to outspeed pokemon with a base speed stat as high as 103 without the Unburden boost. To add on to that, while Lee does have Reckless HJK and Double Edge, Lucha having Mold Breaker is absolutely devastating to the PhysDef Clef that counters Hitmonlee. Lee, at least imo, despite it's far higher base attack, 125 compared to Hawlucha's 92, it is much worse because of it's naturally sub-par base speed and meh bulk. I'd say Lee is probably C- because in terms of offensive fighting types, Mienshao does the Reckless HJK better with more coverage, Inner Focus, and Regenerator, and in terms of Unburden and Limber, Hawlucha outclasses it. Hitmonlee does have one thing over the two, being that it combines abilities from the two, but it is far less reliable on average than Lucha or Mienshao
With the recent ban of evasion moves+abilities in OU , will there be any impact on Pokebilities? I assume that Snow Cloak and Sand Veil will stay, because a bunch of pokemon get those as secondary abilities, but will Bright Powder/Lax Incense be banned?
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pokebilities-1484893804-08uol10sjzvxlpwi7bynpgl8yxohdzdpw
This replay shows precisely why I feel Conk is too overwhelming for this meta. Every time it comes out, it forces either a KO or a sack, which is just what Dracovish used to do in SS OU before its ban. At least Dracovish had only one true set it ran, the only thing being altered is if it was Band or Scarf. Conk has a wide variety of sets with its coverage that can tear apart what would otherwise be counters. Clef is destroyed by Poison Jab+Mach Punch, Corviknight is ruined by Thunder Punch, Buzzwole is ruined by Fire Punch, Dragonite by Mach Punch on the switchin into Ice Punch, Chomp and Hippo by Ice Punch, Pelipper and Toxapex with Thunder Punch, Scizor with Fire Punch, Slowtwins, Glowtwins, and Latis with Knock Off, etc. The one true "counter" is Geezing, which even then, is easy to wear down with repeated chip damage, status, and Stealth Rock. If Geezing gets hit by Knock Off, it can't even survive 3 Facades, which would be fairly easy to hit on it considering that it loves to switch into Conk repeatedly. My opponent was forced into scouting moves, and even after he was able to scout out the two moves that weren't the obvious Mach Punch+Drain Punch/Close Combat, it was too late and he had already been put into a near auto lose situation. I believe scouting being a necessity to not get ran over by a pokemon uncompetitive and unhealthy. Much of my push to suspect Conk is the same reason I pushed to ban Mosa.
This replay shows precisely why I feel Conk is too overwhelming for this meta. Every time it comes out, it forces either a KO or a sack, which is just what Dracovish used to do in SS OU before its ban. At least Dracovish had only one true set it ran, the only thing being altered is if it was Band or Scarf. Conk has a wide variety of sets with its coverage that can tear apart what would otherwise be counters. Clef is destroyed by Poison Jab+Mach Punch, Corviknight is ruined by Thunder Punch, Buzzwole is ruined by Fire Punch, Dragonite by Mach Punch on the switchin into Ice Punch, Chomp and Hippo by Ice Punch, Pelipper and Toxapex with Thunder Punch, Scizor with Fire Punch, Slowtwins, Glowtwins, and Latis with Knock Off, etc. The one true "counter" is Geezing, which even then, is easy to wear down with repeated chip damage, status, and Stealth Rock. If Geezing gets hit by Knock Off, it can't even survive 3 Facades, which would be fairly easy to hit on it considering that it loves to switch into Conk repeatedly. My opponent was forced into scouting moves, and even after he was able to scout out the two moves that weren't the obvious Mach Punch+Drain Punch/Close Combat, it was too late and he had already been put into a near auto lose situation. I believe scouting being a necessity to not get ran over by a pokemon uncompetitive and unhealthy. Much of my push to suspect Conk is the same reason I pushed to ban Mosa.
I'm pretty sure Pokemon with Snow Cloak/Sand Veil will be banned along with BP/LI, since this meta has standard OU clauses.
This also means Dugtrio is double banned and confirmed anarchist 2.
Dugtrio definitely either is banned or there's a bug where if you choose Sand Force, it won't be, and the bug will probably be fixed. Trapping with a 20% chance to avoid any move in the same weather that gives it a free Life Orb on it's stab and the most common coverage move it uses is just too much.
Any mon with trapping abilities is banned, but this format does NOT follow OU bans. King's rock is still allowed, as are evasion abilities. King's rock abuse is much rarer here, but the evasion abilities come for free alongside better ones and can get quite bothersome. We can't really ban them without banning each mon that uses them, though.
Going to shout out Heliolisk as an underrated mon in this meta. I searched and haven't seen much discussion.
I'm not going to say it's top tier or anything, but I think it has a role to play. I use the below set as a lead scout/utility/pivot mon and occasionally late game cleanup. Heliolisk does well in this meta because it can serve a number of roles and isn't setup fodder.
Heliolisk @ Focus Sash
Ability: Dry Skin/Sand Veil/Solar Power
EVs: 252 SpAtk / 4 Hp / 252 Spe
Timid Nature (+Speed)
- Glare
- Hyper Voice
- Volt Switch
- Grass Knot
Notes on abilities and moves below.
Weaknesses: It does have some glaring weaknesses -
I'm not going to say it's top tier or anything, but I think it has a role to play. I use the below set as a lead scout/utility/pivot mon and occasionally late game cleanup. Heliolisk does well in this meta because it can serve a number of roles and isn't setup fodder.
Heliolisk @ Focus Sash
Ability: Dry Skin/Sand Veil/Solar Power
EVs: 252 SpAtk / 4 Hp / 252 Spe
Timid Nature (+Speed)
- Glare
- Hyper Voice
- Volt Switch
- Grass Knot
Notes on abilities and moves below.
- Dry Skin: Adds a water immunity in a meta where rain is somewhat common. People forget about this all the time and it's really nice bit of utility for free.
- Sand Veil: Adds survivability in sand, which is relatively common.
- Solar Power: I haven't actually seen a sun team yet, so this hasn't been helpful. Given I usually run Helio with a sash, this ability probably hurts, but the extra power is nice.
- Glare - Useful for predicting switches to ground types, speed control, and neutralizing threats. The sash allows me to take a hit from a faster mon and then paralyze them.
- Hyper Voice - I don't actually use this move all that often, it's just Helio's best Stab option
- Volt Switch - Keeps momentum going, pretty straightforward. My team is built around switches and hard reads, because that's how I like to play, so Heliolisk fits in well.
- Grass Knot - Coverage, for ground types. Could use energy ball but this hits most ground/rock types harder.
Weaknesses: It does have some glaring weaknesses -
- Cincinno & Conkeledurr both hard counter it, and Conk can switch in on it without much fear.
- Dracozolt is faster than it in sand, so Helio has to hope RNJesus is watching over between Sand Veil + Hustle
- Magnezone - As leads, Magnezone has the slower volt switch and gets analytic to really hammer whoever you swap in. Helio can't do much to threaten but can take away sturdy, which is nice. I personally have Marowak-Alola so I usually swap this in for a free flare blitz/poltergeist
- Dragapult - +Atk one shots with Darts and +Speed has a 97% chance of doing so. Helio has basically no answers except to volt switch out before this comes in
- Kommo-o - Can't really hurt it but you can use Glare. Typically glare then switch out to something else
- Bulky Mons - In general, Helio isnt strong enough to 2HKO anything that
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I know that people think Reuniclus is very strong, but I have been having some fun with this set as a way to cause a lot of trouble to more passive mons.
Reuniclus @ Leftovers
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Acid Armor
- Stored Power
- Recover
Dark types aren't being used much so if this can get its boosts, it will easily sweep. You can switch this in on either a status move or a weaker attack and then play the fun guessing game of whether to pick calm mind or acid armor based on the incoming switch. If you guess right, you can sweep if you don't get crit and if you guess wrong you can just switch out and guess again later without having to worry about being chipped down because of magic guard + regenerator.
Reuniclus @ Leftovers
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Acid Armor
- Stored Power
- Recover
Dark types aren't being used much so if this can get its boosts, it will easily sweep. You can switch this in on either a status move or a weaker attack and then play the fun guessing game of whether to pick calm mind or acid armor based on the incoming switch. If you guess right, you can sweep if you don't get crit and if you guess wrong you can just switch out and guess again later without having to worry about being chipped down because of magic guard + regenerator.
One thing I would suggest is making it PhysDef with Bold because you're already boosting your SpDef. Also, if you invest the 4 EVs you have into SpAtk into speed, you get the jump on other base 30 pokemon that normally run min speed. Examples are Slowtwins, Galarian Slowtwins (if Gbro doesn't get the Quick Draw proc), Amoongus, opposing Reuniclus, and Snorlax. There's also the extraordinarily rare Steelix, Copperajah, and Appletun. Since you're boosting your SpAtk anyway and it is only 4 EVs, the speed has a chance of making a difference
Sand Balance
As the name of the team would entail, this team is meant to be a balance team. AV PhysDef Reun for more of a mixed wall, Hippo for the sand setter and a physical wall with good offensive capability, Clef for a special wall, Zolt+Conk for a terrifying physical offense core on the team, and Dragapult to help the special side with Hydro Pump for Tyranitar and Heatran switching in
As the name of the team would entail, this team is meant to be a balance team. AV PhysDef Reun for more of a mixed wall, Hippo for the sand setter and a physical wall with good offensive capability, Clef for a special wall, Zolt+Conk for a terrifying physical offense core on the team, and Dragapult to help the special side with Hydro Pump for Tyranitar and Heatran switching in
Just Something I have Noticed. Sunny and Rain setters are great antimeta.
I want to give a shout out to Peliper in particular while it's weak to dracozolt a major threat it completely shutdown hail and sand setters due to it's typing
My first two matches with a rain team had me aginst a sand and hail winning both.
Will try a sun team next see what I can pull. I really think yall are over looking a mix fire grass sun team with chlorophyll abuse
I want to give a shout out to Peliper in particular while it's weak to dracozolt a major threat it completely shutdown hail and sand setters due to it's typing
My first two matches with a rain team had me aginst a sand and hail winning both.
Will try a sun team next see what I can pull. I really think yall are over looking a mix fire grass sun team with chlorophyll abuse
I rather prefer band on zolt to check geezing stronger and score more OHKOes, but hedging your odds with a lens is decent, plus you're not choiced. Hydro pump on pult is indeed useful tech especially for opposing hippowdon due to not getting the spdef boost from sand. I take it you'd be OK with this being added to the list of samples, assuming you've tested it and enjoy it?
I can understand why you prefer band with how it turns pokemon like Geezing and Hippo into 2HKOs with Bolt Beak and Outrage respectively. However, both of those moves do have immunities, making Zolt prediction reliant, which is incredibly unreliable. Bolt Beak even leaves room for other Dracozolt to switch in and get a free hit, something which you do not want to give it. Even its coverage isn't the most reliable with Band. Fire Fang/Blast gets absorbed by Tran, Low Kick by Pult, EQ/High Horsepower by Corviknight, band just doesn't make it worth it often enough, especially because Life Orb also hits those ranges that Lens doesn't. However, the issue with Life Orb is that Zolt is already made far worse by chip damage such as status and hazards. Wide Lens patches up a lot of the accuracy issues, making its normally 80% accurate moves (if 100% accurate without Hustle) 88% accurate, which makes the moves hit much more, shockingly. Along with that, Lens reduces Zolt's vulnerability to passive damage. If desired, items like Magnet and Dragon Fang could also be used to hit the important ranges on pokemon that would otherwise be checks, but I prefer the increase in reliability that Wide Lens gives