can you give it flame orb please?
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Format Discussion Past Gens Random Battle Sets
- Thread starter A Cake Wearing A Hat
- Start date
Leftovers is way better than Flame Orb in that scenario. This set’s purpose is to act as an offensive glue; durability is the priority. This also applies to ResTalk sets with Bulk Up, and I’m pretty sure Flame Orb is rolled if the set doesn’t have Sleep Talk.
The only edit that could perhaps be made would be something like if=!Bulk Up then Mold Breaker is rolled. I think abilities are rolled before moves, though, so it’s impossible.
The reason Vigoroth is in if because it is pretty different to Slaking (well also because it is tiered). Ivysaur is just a worse Venusaur and...what does Shelgon do? Honest question because it could be added.
Shelgon's most viable movepool would be Wish, Toxic, Protect, Body Slam, Roar, maybe Dragon Claw probably. This is basically all the moves from its ADV NU physically defensive set. I wouldn't be against Shelgon being added as Wish support, which is pretty rare in Gen III rands atm. It also is tiered, being a part of NU by usage.
Could also make it Cro and just do ResTalk Dragon Dance Body Slam but that feels way less interesting a proposition. It's the set listed first in ADV NU, but I feel EVs and being the only Dragon-Type in the tier besides Dragonair who is directly inferior are what makes that set work. It wouldn't really extend to rands IMO.
can this please be implemented? or commented on? there is still no guarantee that gengar has a stab ghost move.
There is a PR by Tarrembeau that will fix this! Thanks!
Sorry for the delay! We are debating the pros and cons of forcing Ghost-type STAB moves. Most probably we'll approve it, but changes may take a little longer than simple movepool ones since they have to be done on the randomizer code.
Darksafadao
best of the second options
hello, at gen7 i got amoonguss without grass STAB(hp fire, sludge bomb, clear smog, spore). I also would like to know if I can discuss deeper changes to randbats on this thread or if I have to resort to another one as I'd like to suggest changes that apparently everyone that I talk to that plays randbats agrees with but talking to staff individually doesn't seem to be effective. Thanks.
Use the threads on this subforum for suggestions. The subforum and the room chat are the places to discuss, debate and review issues. Don't PM staff for changes you consider useful and always expect positive answers. If you post those changes that apparently everyone wants we'll gladly answer you once we debate it ourselves too.
Regarding Amoonguss, that's not a possible set to roll on Gen 7 Random Battles. Please provide a replay or at least a screenshot so we figure out what happened there.
Darksafadao
best of the second options
Well, when i tried the chatroom it was also largely unfruitful for any sort of debate, hopefully in the forums it'll be a good experience. What thread exactly can I do it? Can i create a thread for it?
This one for Past Gen formats, and for gen 8, doubles and BDSP there are others pinned on this same subforum. What format are you trying to make a suggestion for?
Darksafadao
best of the second options
Gen7 but it's a very broad discussion that could probably be applied to other gens
This is the place then. Regarding the amoonguss set, could you provide the full replay or at least a full screenshot, if possible including your full team? We areu nsure how it generated, but at worst, it's a very very odd set (>.001 chances of generating) so for the moment we won't take further action until we find more info about it.
Ah, regarding your broad discussion, please double check the first post of this thread so you have a full disclosure of certain randbat teams principles that may help condensate and order your suggestions.
Darksafadao
best of the second options
Sadly this screenshot is the only thing I have. I agree it is rare and that's precisely why I took this screenshot at the moment and shared it with a friend but I only recalled there was a thread for this after the replay expired. I believe my team was rapidash-m swampert - gastrodon - amoonguss but i cant recall the other two
There seems to be a problem with untiered mons in gen 5. They are lvl 80, as seen with Golduck and Carnivine here, instead of the usual 88 or 90. This affected Beautifly and Whiscash from the same game too. I also checked with gen 6, where it's not the case, and another gen 5 game, where it still is.
Sorry if that's a known issue !
Sorry if that's a known issue !
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We know about it, Tarrembeau already sent a PR to fix it, thanks for the report
im not saying we should ban mewtwo from gen1 rands, but maybe it could be a bit less optimized for the environment. maybe we could remove barrier and rest? ive been playing the format lately and am fine (75 games 72 gxe) but barrier/rest (especially rest) m2 is just a drag. there's currently no semi-consistent way to handle mewtwo unless i'm missing something big. it heals your para with rest, it stalls crit fishing and prevents full para fishing with rest, it outspeeds your boom user and barriers for free. barrier/amnesia with that speed means theres very little offensive counterplay one-on-one, let alone the (likely!) probability it gets free entry on something that can't bother it. you can try sleeping it if you're lucky to have a sleeper and have preserved it, but it can amnesia as you switch the sleeper in and yeah good luck having your grass types take a +2 blizz. last-mon mewtwo renders entire games irrelevant. no team preview and no chance of a non-setup set (im counting rest as setup and don't feel bad about doing so) makes this feel more overbearing / uncompetitive than gen7rb xern.
psychic, recover, blizzard, thunderbolt, amnesia at least doesn't lock it into one moveset every time (and still lets it be a monster!), but if more diversity is desired than that, you have self-destruct and thunder wave, and maybe hyper beam as a fringe option
psychic, recover, blizzard, thunderbolt, amnesia at least doesn't lock it into one moveset every time (and still lets it be a monster!), but if more diversity is desired than that, you have self-destruct and thunder wave, and maybe hyper beam as a fringe option
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As someone who has played a lot of Gen 1 Random Battles(peak 89 GXE and 1737 Elo, countless games played across tournaments and ladder), as well as Random Battles as a whole, I strongly disagree that the Barrier/Rest Mewtwo set is problematic. As a moderator of the Gen 1 Random Battles community, I think I can safely say that the Barrier/Rest Mewtwo set is generally seen as one of the worst, if not the worst Mewtwo set one can roll... there's a few points you brought up that I'll touch on here. I will preface this by saying that all Mewtwo sets are definitely very good, I just disagree that it is a problematic presence within the format any more than, say, Gen 7 Slurpuff.
I will first note that, as you may already know: in Gen 1, the paralysis speed drop does not go away when a Pokemon rests it off until it switches out. In a format where Thunder Wave and Body Slam are so common, it is usually not difficult to get Mewtwo paralyzed, especially since a +2 Psychic OHKOs very few mons that are not weak to it. With the speed drop from Paralysis, this set becomes slightly less scary since you can re-paralyze it upon wake up with a twaver, or even put it to sleep, which can be very viable strategy since the Barrier/Rest set often functions as a "last resort, late game sweeper".
As far as the point about Blizzard, Mewtwo with Rest or Barrier will not ever run Blizzard, as if a Mewtwo has either Rest or Barrier you can be 100% sure that the set is Rest/Barrier/Psychic/Amnesia, so I don't really understand how that matters here.
As far as things that can "one vs one" the Barrier/Rest set, there are quite a few options. Mr. Mime can go in on it, Thunder Wave it, and then Seismic Toss it down, being able to stall it pretty effectively and likely knock it out eventually with the power of Paralysis RNG. Chansey also has some sets that can help deal with it, whether it be through TWave/Seismic Toss, freeze fishing with Ice Beam, Sing, or just general PP stall with the right support. Hypno/Drowzee also handle it extremely well, with the bulk to take boosted psychics easily and put Mewtwo to sleep, drop its speed with Thunder Wave, and even do solid damage with Seismic Toss(Seismic Toss in general is a great move to have to help deal with this set). Alakazam/Kadabra are 2 other strong choices to deal with Mewtwo when they run Seismic Toss. Persian, Meowth(as well as strong Slashers in general), and Raticate also help deal with this set, as they outspeed Mewtwo and can hit it super hard even with Barrier/Amnesia set up. Some of the counters I named may seem imperfect, or like they simply wall Mewtwo but struggle to take it down without some RNG... but that brings up a notable weakness of the Barrier/Rest set: PP. Psychic only has 16 PP, and since it is the only attacking move on this set, mons that can tank boosted Psychics and recover back the damage are able to potentially PP stall this Mewtwo set with proper support.
Pokemon is a game of odds management, and Gen 1 Random Battles represent that more than just about any other format. As annoying as it is to hear, some of the best ways to bring this Mewtwo set down if you don't have any of these Pokemon may involve freeze fishing, crit fishing(much higher crit rates in Gen 1 so this is actually quite valid), Paralysis fishing(which is much more effective than you let on above due to the speed drop not going away upon rest), and other RNG based methods. It's a hard Pokemon to deal with, but I can confidently say that it usually does not autowin games for me or my opponent when it shows up. In fact, I'd rather roll a Mewtwo set with coverage in most situations, since it is much more versatile and consistent in any matchup, whereas the Barrier/Rest set needs a lot to go its way to work properly.
As far as your last point about adding Self-Destruct or Thunder Wave, I think these are interesting suggestions but I'm willing to bet most players of the format would agree that these simply make Mewtwo's current movepool worse and would not be desirable. Ultimately, Random Battles staff try to focus on optimizing sets as much as possible, and this would likely go against that.
TL;DR Barrier/Rest Mewtwo is a very good Pokemon but it is not the best Mewtwo set in the format, and Mewtwo itself is arguably not even the best Pokemon in the format due to the level nerfs that have already taken place to help balance it. Sometimes it can lead to some annoying reverse sweeps lategame, but that is just an inevitability of any main gen Random Battles format, and Barrier/Rest Mewtwo is no worse than many other examples such as Belly Drum Slurpuff in Gen 7. The set has multiple checks/counters or methods of counterplay to help play around it.
i guess i cant really argue most of that. thanks for the well reasoned explanation. i do think special drops make pp stalling psychic (and taking it generally, even if resistant) harder than you imply, as does it appearing when much of your team is pre-paralyzed/chipped/dead. one point i intended to make, but that i dont think transferred well and contributed to some misunderstanding, is that the possibility of barrier or rest (or blizz or tbolt) makes responding to it less consistent. you dont know which of these it'l have when it appears (often on top of something that can't threaten it).
i'll meander into set philosophy for a sec and say that, while we can both agree outright kneecapping (eg psywave) is silly, i dont personally oppose options that provide some new utility to overwhelming mons even if they're clearly less overwhelming options. for example i was in favor of choice item xern in its randbats heyday. but obviously that philosophy business is yalls choice. again thanks for the run-through
i'll meander into set philosophy for a sec and say that, while we can both agree outright kneecapping (eg psywave) is silly, i dont personally oppose options that provide some new utility to overwhelming mons even if they're clearly less overwhelming options. for example i was in favor of choice item xern in its randbats heyday. but obviously that philosophy business is yalls choice. again thanks for the run-through
Hello! I was a bit curious about Victini's attacking options in gen 5 rands. The calculator mentions that not only can it get either Thunderbolt or Bolt Strike (even possibly getting them both at once as seen below), but it also cannot have any of Zen Headbutt, Grass Knot, Energy Ball, and Glaciate, which are all options it can get in later gens (but still learns in that one).
Having the possibility of getting Thunderbolt feels very suboptimal to me, as in rands I think it's very rare that it'll be a better move to click than Bolt Strike. Victini also does not lack options in coverage (and even stab), as seen in later gens. Is that a deliberate choice?
About choice: while it can get all three choice items in gens 6 and 8, it cannot hold Choice Band in gen 5, and Choice Specs in gen 7. Why so? It feels like even without changing its movepool, it could make use of both items in their respective gens, with a Choice Band set of V-Create, Bolt Strike, U-Turn and Trick in gen 5, and a Choice Specs set of Blue Flare, Focus Blast, Grass Knot and U-Turn in gen 7. Victini's unpredictability is, to me, its greatest strength in rands, and I see no reason to limit it in two of the four gens it appears in. Also, why can't it hold Boots in gen 8?
I know I might be missing something in terms of set programming, but it also feels like choices were made that I don't understand, that's why I'm asking so many questions lol
Thanks in advance!!
Having the possibility of getting Thunderbolt feels very suboptimal to me, as in rands I think it's very rare that it'll be a better move to click than Bolt Strike. Victini also does not lack options in coverage (and even stab), as seen in later gens. Is that a deliberate choice?
About choice: while it can get all three choice items in gens 6 and 8, it cannot hold Choice Band in gen 5, and Choice Specs in gen 7. Why so? It feels like even without changing its movepool, it could make use of both items in their respective gens, with a Choice Band set of V-Create, Bolt Strike, U-Turn and Trick in gen 5, and a Choice Specs set of Blue Flare, Focus Blast, Grass Knot and U-Turn in gen 7. Victini's unpredictability is, to me, its greatest strength in rands, and I see no reason to limit it in two of the four gens it appears in. Also, why can't it hold Boots in gen 8?
I know I might be missing something in terms of set programming, but it also feels like choices were made that I don't understand, that's why I'm asking so many questions lol
Thanks in advance!!
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Betathunder
alphalightning
Wanted to post something regarding smeargle in gen7.
Currently, smeargle's movepool only consists of support moves, mainly hazards + status (full moveset seen below).
I wanted to propose the potential addition of Nuzzle to the movepool for two reasons:
First, it adds another element of status crippling in case either a) an opposing mon has already been put to sleep or b) there is a grass mon/some other mon immune to spore that can be safely doubled into.
Secondly, nuzzle is an attacking move that allows smeargle to not be completely useless if it is facing a mon running taunt. Currently, smeargle has no attacking moves in its movepool meaning that fast mons with taunt or a mon with magic bounce can pretty safely switch into smeargle without repercussions.
TL:DR, nuzzle allows smeargle to cripple more mons and not be completely useless against mbounce/taunt users.
If this has already been discussed/shot down I apologize its my first time posting in this thread :)
Currently, smeargle's movepool only consists of support moves, mainly hazards + status (full moveset seen below).
I wanted to propose the potential addition of Nuzzle to the movepool for two reasons:
First, it adds another element of status crippling in case either a) an opposing mon has already been put to sleep or b) there is a grass mon/some other mon immune to spore that can be safely doubled into.
Secondly, nuzzle is an attacking move that allows smeargle to not be completely useless if it is facing a mon running taunt. Currently, smeargle has no attacking moves in its movepool meaning that fast mons with taunt or a mon with magic bounce can pretty safely switch into smeargle without repercussions.
TL:DR, nuzzle allows smeargle to cripple more mons and not be completely useless against mbounce/taunt users.
If this has already been discussed/shot down I apologize its my first time posting in this thread :)
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Hi I dont have a screenshot of it, but I would like to suggest for gen 3 heracross to have swarm as an ability over guts. I believe random battle sets cant be assigned in conjunction with moves, if this can be done, I would obviously suggest it with all Heracross sets with a bug move. Swarm heracross is slightly more useful, particularly on sub sd sets as u can sub+sd down to swarm to have boosted megahorns. I still understand the utility of guts hera, esp in gen 3, but considering hera already has salac sub sd sets, those would benefit from swarm a lot more than guts.
Protect in Tinted Lens Yanmega is useless pls remove it ty! DPP Rands btw, only Speed Booster one should get it
Hello, in gen 5 I rolled a Crustle set with 2 rock moves and no x-scissor. Feels unfortunate not having bug stab with shell smash. I was wondering if it would be possible to fix this.
