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I recently started playing again after dengo's departure and finally found some enjoyment, and enough insight to give my opinions on these mons
TL;DR - QB these three. - Suspect Test - No Comment/No action (right now at least)
- I felt that this mon was broken even before it gained scale shot, and all the addition of it did was make it even more apparent. This pokemon can be insanely difficult to wall without very specific mons such as Dozo/Skele due to its powerful STABs + EQ. It's ability to abuse screens/veil is almost unrivaled, and it can very easily steal games thanks to its already solid bulk + veil giving it the ability to set up in front of anything and do huge damage. This pokemon is very restricting in my opinion, and I do hope to see it go.
- Easily the best trade machine in the tier in my opinion. I've seen some sets like 3a + CM/Moonlight, or even 4a but I feel that CM + Moonlight is the most problematic of the bunch. It's ability to set up versus many threats thanks to its great bulk and Tera Poison to help with Toxic and other matchups allows it to very easily snowball with its stupidly powerful Blood Moon + EP combo. I literally had a game where I saw an opposing Luna-BM and pretty much knew that it was going to claim at least one mon. I don't see something like this being healthy, and no, running CM Blissey on every team is NOT a convincing argument.
- This pokemon is just really unfun to play against and prep for in the builder, there's the notorious Tera Fly Acro set, but also stuff like Tera Ground for Pex or Ice for Lando/Glisc has been seen around, giving it flexibility and choosing its own checks and counters. Its ability to abuse screens from Koko allows it take priority especially after the seed buff, and we all know that its speed tier is unrivaled, making this pokemon incredibly annoying to play around and often leads to defensive tera usage. There's also its pivot set, which although not nearly as egregious, is able to come in and other of battle spreading status with its Poison Touch + Dire Claw combo (and dire claw in it of itself is a VERY controversial move) Overall, this mon is stupid.
- This pokemon is very very strong and versatile. Now each set has its glaring weaknesses, Scarf hits hard especially versus more offensively oriented teams, but can falter versus bulkier ones. Specs/Z (and even the rare LO) can MAUL defensive mons but struggle versus faster threats. However, I still find that its extremely solid in whatever role you want it to be. As a cleaner its pratically unrivaled with its Scarf set, and with its Specs/Z set its a peerless breaker. I don't think its enough to be QB'd, but I definitely can see a suspect test.
- I'm a little unsure of this mon. It definitely has insane versatility and is effective with each of its sets, each having different answers. Though I just don't think I have enough experience post-dengo to give a complete review of it. Could be worth looking into but I'd definitely like to see it more before giving a complete opinion.
Anyway to prevent a one-liner the OP that I typed summarizes most of my thoughts, but I feel much more stronger about Iron Valiant. Even though there are defined and viable checks to it, the variety and effectiveness of its sets makes it a pain to deal with in the builder, and while you can usually find out what set an Iron Valiant is depending on the team, sometimes you will be wrong and have to play down a pretty rough road once you switch in something like a Slowking-Galar into a SD Encore Iron Valiant. Yes, the argument that you can outplay applies to all of the sets you can run into, but at the point the scouting problem comes up again. Rather it be Specs, CM, Swords Dance, Z Move, Booster + 3 Attacks, and whatever else you can run on this thing to good success, there are all effective and in my eyes a little problematic. I've had it quite up to here with Valiant in the metagame and with Gholdengo gone I really want to take action on it due to its constricting presence in the tier with its variance. I'll probably vote to quickban Iron Valiant, but I'm not opposed to the idea of suspect testing it.
I'll probably type up a bit more when I get home but I'm in class right now and just wanted to let this opinion of mine out
Anyway to prevent a one-liner the OP that I typed summarizes most of my thoughts, but I feel much more stronger about Iron Valiant. Even though there are defined and viable checks to it, the variety and effectiveness of its sets makes it a pain to deal with in the builder, and while you can usually find out what set an Iron Valiant is depending on the team, sometimes you will be wrong and have to play down a pretty rough road once you switch in something like a Slowking-Galar into a SD Encore Iron Valiant. Yes, the argument that you can outplay applies to all of the sets you can run into, but at the point the scouting problem comes up again. Rather it be Specs, CM, Swords Dance, Z Move, Booster + 3 Attacks, and whatever else you can run on this thing to good success, there are all effective and in my eyes a little problematic. I've had it quite up to here with Valiant in the metagame and with Gholdengo gone I really want to take action on it due to its constricting presence in the tier with its variance. I'll probably vote to quickban Iron Valiant, but I'm not opposed to the idea of suspect testing it.
I'll probably type up a bit more when I get home but I'm in class right now and just wanted to let this opinion of mine out
Wait u guys think I can actually read????? Anyways no one liners so. Ival does NOT need a QB it definitely deserves a sus due to not being yet viewed In a meta without gods themselves (bluna sneasler and bax) it likely will be a problem however I don't want a premature QB if possible.
Pls look into OGERPON WELLSPRING it has no switch ins its speed tier is beyond cracked to have 120 physical atk and 2 moves over 100 base power, that are stab moves and, a nice fairy coverage for dragons plus sd, making it a threat to the entire meta. What pushes it over the edge is once again.. tera water adding a spd boost permanently, plus adding a water boost to its stab move that already has a high critical chance, basically self drizzle, plus water absorb ... the only thing walling it is ferro and still +2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 147-174 (41.7 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Power Whip vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Ursaluna-Bloodmoon: 380-450 (103.5 - 122.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Zapdos: 189-223 (49.2 - 58%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 248 HP / 16+ Def Scizor-Mega: 249-294 (72.5 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO than it decides to tera after Swords dance how do u think that goes?
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 277-327 (106.1 - 125.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Than tera either pushes a mon over the edge or it legit just makes it OU Zacian crowned
And if you do your reasearch even at like 75 hp no mon that outspeeds it and kills not even 252 SpA Quark Drive Tera Grass Iron Moth Energy Ball vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera: 278-330 (92.3 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO like bro wtf? and ye sludge wave stops ogerpon 1 shot but thats only... WHEN HES NOT TERA WATER FOR GOD SAKE BAN TERA AND THIS LIL SHIT and ogerpon can make tera plays so i dont wanna hear no well if i predict right.. NO BE QUIET bc all this lil shit has to do is tera water and ur only mon that kills it dies and u needed to tera sum else to win like bro
Defensively I think it has enough counter play not to be considered broken and offensively it has plenty ATM. Not being able to slot an item really limits its offensive capabilities. I won't dispute it has good stab and good coverage moves like play rough and knock off, further more it has access to spikes and u-turn if you think that would suite your team better. BUT I understand you feel SD sets are problematic. I think at a glance it looks very strong on paper but the meta simply needs to adapt. One of the reasons it can feel overwhelming is because the team builder is focused on the more broken threats and this means Ogerpon-Wellspring has better match ups against meta teams. Donbozo is a big one, completely walled by Ogerpon if you're running mono attack and you have to Tera out of the weakness. Dozo is needed to check the omnipresent threat Baxcalibur and even Sneasler. Wellspring is often not something teams can fit defensive checks for at the moment but I think that will change after bans have been made. Offensively you can run stuff like Z Koko or Mega Lop or Torn will force a Tera. Keep in mind, ogerpon is susceptible to many forms of chip damage, making him easier to revenge kill. Status/HAzards etc.
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Power Whip vs. 240 HP / 124+ Def Celebi: 178-210 (44.3 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
For now when it can randomly 3HKO ferrothorn. Well ogerpon-w is some thing that is p bad against correct rain teams. Which means rain with overqwil. I always and will always argue that overqwil is a v good rain mon that gives sucker punch resist and grass matchup.
For now when it can randomly 3HKO ferrothorn. Well ogerpon-w is some thing that is p bad against correct rain teams. Which means rain with overqwil. I always and will always argue that overqwil is a v good rain mon that gives sucker punch resist and grass matchup.
What the actual fuck. You do not have room on rain for overquil tbh u already need ferro/pelliper/zapdos/swamp the 2 filter are not worth that... Thing
What the actual fuck. You do not have room on rain for overquil tbh u already need ferro/pelliper/zapdos/swamp the 2 filter are not worth that... Thing
Ye indeed. They are worth for dying to ogerpon w. overqwil gives a nice cover to rain imo, but you can follow the classic archetype and be swept by the same mon again and again then consider the archetype unviable
- These three are absolute monsters that need no introduction. Quickban Baxcalibur and Bloodmoon. Suspect Test Sneasler, however, a Quickban is fine too.
- I don't see these two as much of a problem compared to the others. However, that doesn't diminish their strength, and I feel a Suspect Test is suitable for Lele, at the very least, and potentially Iron Valiant. This is to assume some action was done to Baxcalibur, Bloodmoon, and Sneasler beforehand.
Anyway, I'll do some one liners for most of them and then go heavily in depth on one in particular because i've see a LOT of insane takes on this Pokémon.
Baxcal: QB - This is the only Pokémon I'd say qualifies for a QB in the tier. It's checks are mostly flimsy, and while Gholdengo leaving does help open up Tapu fini which I'm a fan of, overall most of Baxcaliburs checks are fairly flimsy. Skarmory, M-Scizor, Booster I-Val, Scarf Lele, Tapu fini, (especially w z-haze) and kinda not really Celesteela is practically where the list ends, and most of those are getting cheesed by the variety Bax has / Tera finesse. Celesteela is taking 75%, I-Val and Lele need to deal with Tera 50/50s, M-Sciz and fini are the most consistent, but can still be handled by Bax without treating it urgently.
Bloodmoon - Suspect
I'll be honest I lowkey sleep on it. It's stupid dont get it twisted, but adaptations aren't hugely explored. Celesteela is a nice assistance for leech spam, Fini w Z-Haze (can you tell i like fini rn), pivoting with Mega Tar sand to stuff moonlight, SD Mega Scizor can generally bother it and at worst force a trade assuming its healthy, status prone to a degree, hazard prone etc.
Sneasler - Hold your horses
I'll be honest this mon is fairly fraudulent. Alot of the time I've fought this thing it's never been whats won the game. Between pokemon like Aegislash, Skeledirge, Twave Slowbro, Haze pex, priority like Espeed Dnite, M-Scizor, it being contact so Zapdos / Chomp / Rocky helmet all force it to risk its life. Even beyond that, let's assume it gets in. Alot of what it faces off with can usually do 50-60% even with the seed boost, because the mon is made of paper. At that stage, chip is key. Excluding things like hazards already making it lower and priority, things like pivoting around, mega ttar sand, etc. Another thing i see undermentioned is the fact that sneasler always needs CC. If you can pivot and force Sneasler to use CC, it makes it laughably easy to kill it after with priority. Sure technically they can call that out but uh, how many times have you seen that happen?
I-Val - Later.
Not much to say this is no priority.
Lele - What the hell are you even doing here?
I've seen some insane takes here and in general on this thing. Scarf lele is an amazing scarfer, arguably the best don't get me wrong. And specs lele is very threatening. But the amount of tera waiving I've seen for this thing is wild. Firstly, despite what you guys think, psychic clicking is not spammable. Between things like Heatran, Mega ttar, Moltres i guess its prolly ass now but eh, Ferrothorn, Mega Scizor, Celesteela, Glowking etc. Besides other things like being hazard and pursuit prone, which apparently some people think lele isnt pursuit prone which is a bold faced lie. Yes, Mega Tyranitar cannot go hard into Lele. But Ttar existing means lele can never click and kill w a psychic move or its losing 80% or so. This can partially apply to mega scizor too. Yes, pursuit mega scizor is actually a good set and is underutilized in the tier and in generally really. To me, specs lele is simply meh. It's like an upgraded Hoopa-U with a somehow worse defensive profile. Lele switches into a CC one time and needs surgery for taking like 35 + rocks lmao. One other note is, most of the pokemon i listed here, unlike the others, can afford to be wrong a single time. Mega ttar can snack a scarf moonblast, scizor barely eats an HP fire, glowking can tank a psyshock and tell the tale, Ting lu snacks on scarf moonblast like its thanksgiving. For a choiced by lifestyle Pokémon with mediocore longevity and an average speed tier, that's big.
Frankly the whole gholdengo ban seems to have given a large knee-jerk reaction to tiering. Yes, lele and valiant and sneasler are harder, and sneasler specifically probably wouldnt be on here if people didnt find it annoying. But we have roughly 100 viable pokemon in this tier to pick from, from slowbro to celesteela to mega ttar to zapdos to even goofy shit like Regidrago, or old standbys people think fell off like Clef. Give them a try and dont try locking yourself to thinking these mons are as limiting as you think they are.
QB this thing, even if you're somewhat prepared with Scizor-Mega and stuff like Tapu Fini, the ability of this Pokemon to pressure its checks is overwhelming. Choice Band is an under-utilized set, and tera Dragon 2HKO things like fucking Skarmory or the aforementioned Scizor-Mega after rocks.
Ursaluna-Bloodmoon
QB this. While offense can kind of deal with it just fine, it is just too threatening against balance teams. Blood Moon becomes impossible to stall out if used in conjunction with Hyper Voice. It finds set-up opportunities like no other Pokemon can, despite its speed.
Sneasler
Suspect this. It does require a team built around it but it just needs its few checks to be slightly weakened to run through a whole team, not to mention Dire Claw which can turn the tides if the gameplan cannot be developed.
Iron Valiant and Tapu Lele
I have more problem against Iron Valiant than Tapu Lele. Fairy/Fighting/Electric is impeccable coverage, and the ability to go Physical or Special is very threatening. It is very hard to scout. I don't mind for this to be suspected but it is admittedly less urgent than the other three.
Tapu Lele, on the other hand, either hits hard or hits fast, but not both. Little switch-in opportunities means that it has to lock itself into the right move. Choice Scarf Lele will never get past things like Heatran, I know it's not its job but giving a free turn to the opponent is very detrimental, especially considering Lele doesn't provide any defensive value. Teams with Specs Lele are weak against Pursuit users, often Lele can only trade one-for-one unless Lele can break with Tera Fairy Moonblast. This is not to say Lele isn't amazing, it's a Pokemon worth building around but the downsides are too apparent for it to be considered suspect-worthy.
Last call for any opinions! We are voting on Baxcalibur, Ursaluna-Bloodmoon, Sneasler, Iron Valiant, and Tapu Lele real soon. Make sure to get in any final words, this slate will come out on Wednesday at the latest.
I did made a mistake in my post, And think that Ival And lele should be sudpected And Not qb, but I Also add that action on baxca, ursaluna-BM And sneasler are a priority. The meta is almost unplayable with bax And ursa, And it's p hard to build The team We want with sneadler around. Indeed We must take smthing that.holds both Koko And sneaslet And The only thing that comes in mind is gliscor. And While glisc is Not as Good as SVOU suspect class, it is Still Not a fUN mon to use or play against.
Quickban. Even the best checks to this thing die very fast if they make one wrong move. This is such a brutal wallbreaker and sweeper at once. Dealing with Icicle Spear, Scale Shot, and EQ is hard. It is hands down the biggest veil abuser in the tier and is almost impossible to deal with under Veil. It is so restricting in builder too. You are basically mandated to run either something that can RK it like Scarf lele or Booster Valiant (or scarf valiant i guess if you are weird) or one of its very limited defensive checks. And even then, it can still get the better of you if you don't play your outs right. I honestly half considered this thing more problematic than Gholdengo even before DLC1, so yeah, please QB.
This is the other mon I wanted to give my thoughts on. I think Blood moon is gross, but I would be more hesitant to quickban it. I think we should have a high bar for quickbans at this stage of national dex. I just do not think it clears that bar as efficiently. Sure, it is a nightmare for balance and it is a fat fat fatty who just doesn't die, but compared to Bax muscling through its few checks with ease I think it just isn't *as* problematic. Don't get me wrong, I think its gross and want it suspected, but I would say that compared to our more recent quickbans, I do not think it is at that level.
Not going to talk much on the other three. While I wouldn't oppose a Sneasler suspect, I feel like the appropriate path forward is a Bax ban, a quick Bloodmoon test, and then let the meta settle a bit before we try to test one more thing before DLC2 drops next month.
Anyway, I'll do some one liners for most of them and then go heavily in depth on one in particular because i've see a LOT of insane takes on this Pokémon.
Baxcal: QB - This is the only Pokémon I'd say qualifies for a QB in the tier. It's checks are mostly flimsy, and while Gholdengo leaving does help open up Tapu fini which I'm a fan of, overall most of Baxcaliburs checks are fairly flimsy. Skarmory, M-Scizor, Booster I-Val, Scarf Lele, Tapu fini, (especially w z-haze) and kinda not really Celesteela is practically where the list ends, and most of those are getting cheesed by the variety Bax has / Tera finesse. Celesteela is taking 75%, I-Val and Lele need to deal with Tera 50/50s, M-Sciz and fini are the most consistent, but can still be handled by Bax without treating it urgently.
Bloodmoon - Suspect
I'll be honest I lowkey sleep on it. It's stupid dont get it twisted, but adaptations aren't hugely explored. Celesteela is a nice assistance for leech spam, Fini w Z-Haze (can you tell i like fini rn), pivoting with Mega Tar sand to stuff moonlight, SD Mega Scizor can generally bother it and at worst force a trade assuming its healthy, status prone to a degree, hazard prone etc.
Sneasler - Hold your horses
I'll be honest this mon is fairly fraudulent. Alot of the time I've fought this thing it's never been whats won the game. Between pokemon like Aegislash, Skeledirge, Twave Slowbro, Haze pex, priority like Espeed Dnite, M-Scizor, it being contact so Zapdos / Chomp / Rocky helmet all force it to risk its life. Even beyond that, let's assume it gets in. Alot of what it faces off with can usually do 50-60% even with the seed boost, because the mon is made of paper. At that stage, chip is key. Excluding things like hazards already making it lower and priority, things like pivoting around, mega ttar sand, etc. Another thing i see undermentioned is the fact that sneasler always needs CC. If you can pivot and force Sneasler to use CC, it makes it laughably easy to kill it after with priority. Sure technically they can call that out but uh, how many times have you seen that happen?
I-Val - Later.
Not much to say this is no priority.
Lele - What the hell are you even doing here?
I've seen some insane takes here and in general on this thing. Scarf lele is an amazing scarfer, arguably the best don't get me wrong. And specs lele is very threatening. But the amount of tera waiving I've seen for this thing is wild. Firstly, despite what you guys think, psychic clicking is not spammable. Between things like Heatran, Mega ttar, Moltres i guess its prolly ass now but eh, Ferrothorn, Mega Scizor, Celesteela, Glowking etc. Besides other things like being hazard and pursuit prone, which apparently some people think lele isnt pursuit prone which is a bold faced lie. Yes, Mega Tyranitar cannot go hard into Lele. But Ttar existing means lele can never click and kill w a psychic move or its losing 80% or so. This can partially apply to mega scizor too. Yes, pursuit mega scizor is actually a good set and is underutilized in the tier and in generally really. To me, specs lele is simply meh. It's like an upgraded Hoopa-U with a somehow worse defensive profile. Lele switches into a CC one time and needs surgery for taking like 35 + rocks lmao. One other note is, most of the pokemon i listed here, unlike the others, can afford to be wrong a single time. Mega ttar can snack a scarf moonblast, scizor barely eats an HP fire, glowking can tank a psyshock and tell the tale, Ting lu snacks on scarf moonblast like its thanksgiving. For a choiced by lifestyle Pokémon with mediocore longevity and an average speed tier, that's big.
Frankly the whole gholdengo ban seems to have given a large knee-jerk reaction to tiering. Yes, lele and valiant and sneasler are harder, and sneasler specifically probably wouldnt be on here if people didnt find it annoying. But we have roughly 100 viable pokemon in this tier to pick from, from slowbro to celesteela to mega ttar to zapdos to even goofy shit like Regidrago, or old standbys people think fell off like Clef. Give them a try and dont try locking yourself to thinking these mons are as limiting as you think they are.
I do usually run Celesteela(I'm special), but it doesn't really hard check per say. As for Mega Scizor:
Why would you use Pursuit on a mon that already kind of lacks space? Given that it needs SD and Bullet Punch, that leaves it with 2 slots in the form of usually U-Turn and Roost/Dual Wingbeat. I can see why you would run it, but I'm going to put this as respectfully as possible, because I have seen other people do this: This test is to look at what sort of mons using general move sets are overpowered in the meta or not. It doesn't matter about if you favor one set or another, everybody needs to understand that we are looking at 5 mons that are a central part of this meta, to a more or lesser extent. Obscure sets that only serve to counter these mons just prove the point more, and should frankly not count in my opinion. If we revert to this argument, we can Temp6t our way into an infinite number of sets around garbage Pokémon to counter them.
That being said, most of these sets actually do have an impact on Ursa, specifically Ting-Lu. I'm not discrediting anyone's opinion. I just hope that this meta game will do what's right and help both new and old players have a healthy experience.
I do usually run Celesteela(I'm special), but it doesn't really hard check per say. As for Mega Scizor:
Why would you use Pursuit on a mon that already kind of lacks space? Given that it needs SD and Bullet Punch, that leaves it with 2 slots in the form of usually U-Turn and Roost/Dual Wingbeat.
I understand this misconception, so I'll clear up a couple things. 1: SD is not actually mandatory on scizor, thats just the default way it plays. Yes, SD Scizor is a phenomenal bulky wincon with SD, but it can also use 3A roost and play more like a bruiser. Bullet punch and roost are mandatory, not SD.
2: DWB is not it, what Scizor can run overall it SD/Bullet Punch/CC/Sand Tomb/U-turn/Knock/Pursuit/Toxic/Defog and sprinkle Curse/Trailblaze memes if you so fancy. DWB doesn't do much for Scizor.
Yes, pursuit is primarily for lele, but almost everything bullet punch forces switches for lack recovery, so getting that chip on them is very useful if you feel like calling it, like M-diancie, M-Medi, Rillaboom etc. It's niche but valuable.
I promised myself I would share some thoughts before I voted on anything, since I feel a personal obligation to explain any council votes I cast. I expect to be in the minority but that's fine, my thoughts are my own and I spent some time doing my own due diligence since I care about getting these things right, so take it all with a grain of salt.
I voted for Baxcalibur to be suspect tested (ideally via a short, expedited process). This is probably the only "controversial" vote, and to be clear, I fully hear and understand the calls for a quickban on Bax both in this thread and elsewhere. For me personally, the issue has less to do with whether Baxcalibur is potentially banworthy and more about following Smogon tiering policy generally, including the precedent that we as a community have already set through prior tiering decisions and the precedent that we would be setting here if we do go forward with a Baxcalibur QB.
Do I think the current metagame would be better off without Bax? Probably. It excels in its roles as a CB breaker and DD sweeper (particularly with Snow + Veil support), it has ample set variety with seemingly perfect coverage, and it is one of the tier’s most versatile Tera abusers which further limits the options you have to deal with it in the builder and in games. I could go on about what makes Baxcalibur strong in the metagame, but these all strike me as valid reasons why someone should simply vote Ban on it in a suspect test. I perceive the standard to be different and candidly much higher when you are discussing a potential quickban, and at least at the time of writing this post, I do not see what the best argument would be to place Bax on the level of previous quickbanned pokemon like Ogerpon-Hearthflame, Mega Alakazam, Calyrex-Ice, and several of the early Gen 9 unbans like Kyurem-Black, Flutter Mane, etc.
As for what the potential quickban arguments could be, I go through three of them below.
Potential Quickban Reasoning
One reason we have previously quickbanned a pokemon has been that the pokemon gained new tools in some form, e.g. Mega Alakazam gaining Nasty Plot or Kyurem-Black getting Icicle Spear. I am open to differing opinions here, but Baxcalibur gaining Scale Shot is in no way comparable to the other aforementioned pokemon gaining tools which allowed them to completely blow their previous checks apart with minimal effort. This will be set out in greater detail below, but after looking through every NDPL game where Bax was featured, Scale Shot sets were virtually never used and had almost no impact on Bax winning or losing when they were. Adding Scale Shot obviously improves SD Bax's viability a ton, but not to a degree that has pushed it into QB territory for me.
Another reason might be that we discovered a new way to use Baxcalibur, either with different support or a new set, which now pushes it over the edge (e.g. pairing it with AlolaTails for Snow + Screens). I did not look through every single SSNL, World Cup and NDLT game, but I do recall at least a few instances of Bax + Tails in NDLT (I think Xurkiyee brought it in NDLT finals), and I personally faced it a few times in my Winter SSNL run. Even if veil's newfound popularity (which I sense is dying off already) was the argument for a quickban, Cinderace survived its first SS ND suspect before the advent of Normalium-Z sets forced a prompt re-suspect, meaning we still preferred to remove it via the normal suspect process twice over a QB despite how ridiculous that set proved to be in a post-Dragapult metagame.
Alternatively, many in this thread have tried to justify a quickban by saying that Baxcalibur is simply too good at pressuring its checks and circumventing its counterplay, and is therefore so overtly broken and/or restricting that a QB is needed. Every proposed defensive check is in theory beaten by some coverage move, some Tera type Bax can viably run, and/or some form of support it can use. Additionally, each of the last several bans has only bolstered Baxcalibur's effectiveness in some form or another (e.g. no KGB priority to revenge, no Pult/Hearthflame to outspeed and now no Ghold as a generally sturdy resist). This is ultimately subjective*, but I evaluate this based on how well Bax is doing at the highest levels of tour play, which I discuss in greater detail below. For me, the W/L percentage and the impact on games just wasn't there during this NDPL season to get me over the line to a quickban.
* Personally, Bax feels very similar to SM OU Zygarde in that while some people felt CB and the DD 3-Atk sets were overbearing, it wasn't until Zygarde had been in the tier for over a year that people began to experiment with the Sub DD/SubCoil variants behind screens, which were virtually unkillable if you allowed them to set up safely. Bax certainly isn't on that level, but SubDD sets get going way too quickly and with a well-timed Tera + perfect coverage, the pool of available counterplay options becomes incredibly small. This set alone is probably the sole and strongest reason why I would vote Ban.
As much as these arguments resonate with me, sometimes things appear far worse on paper than they are in practice. To get a better sense of whether this was/is actually happening at higher levels of play, I looked through every SV OU replay throughout eight weeks of NDPL which featured Baxcalibur, and took very basic notes on exactly what Baxcalibur’s direct impact was in each game. Obviously this does not account for the strain Bax places on teambuilding before the game was played, and you could also argue that the pressure of it coming in on one wrong move is itself too threatening to be considered healthy. But for me, when you have a situation where you could reasonably see things one way or the other, I think those discussions are generally better resolved through a suspect process, not quickbans.
This post is already too long, so my notes are hidden below. Not trying to be persuasive or convince anyone of anything - just walking through the due diligence I did on my own time and sharing for the sake of explaining my vote. For those uninterested in reading through it all, the Tl;dr is that even if you fully credited Baxcalibur with a “win” in games where it forced even the most minimal progress (e.g. forcing Tapu Fini to use Z-Haze and accomplishing nothing more), and you only exclude the three games where it was not sent into play for a single turn, Bax generally “won” 52% of the games it was featured in. You could say that Ogerpon-Hearthflame didn't have a commanding W/L record either prior to its quickban, but I think the unhealthy adaptations in the teambuilder clearly played a part in that and without those adaptations, there were plenty of examples of Oger-H winning on the spot with very minimal positioning. For me, Bax had maybe 3 games tops where it really stood out, and that is simply not enough evidence for me to feel comfortable pulling the trigger on a quickban.
NDPL WINRATE
Week 1: Bax goes “2-1”. It did not appear game one, was ineffectual game two, and made an impact game three.
Kyo vs Shucklegigas (W) – Bax was never sent into play.
Peap vs Lameflame (L) – I positioned poorly, but Bax was never sweeping against Sciz + Tera Water Urshifu. Bax chipped Urshifu and died.
Gewwge vs adriyun (W) – Both players brought Bax. Adriyun’s CB Bax chipped base form Scizor early, and got two kills via a read on Iron Valiant with icicle crash and on a glowking sac so gewwge could reverse-sweep with his own Bax.
Week 2: Bax goes “3-0”. It claimed two kills in the first game, did not appear in the second game, and claimed one kill via an end-game sac in game three on one side while not appearing on the other side.
hidin vs mihowk (W) – Bax claimed two kills on an eventual Ting-Lu sac and on Zap.
Isza vs kayzn (W) – Bax was never sent into play.
Crying vs Takatk (W) – Both players brought Bax. Takatk claimed one kill with Bax on a hydreigon sac and struggled to break Tera Fairy Skeledirge. Crying never sent out Bax.
Week 3: Bax goes “5-1”. It made little impact game one, chipped one pokemon game two, did not appear game three, claimed one kill game four at +4/+1 after Tera, was ineffectual due to some hax game five, and chipped two pokemon game six in a loss.
dunoks vs lolebruh (W) – Baxcalibur was not sent out until Turn 140/143, where it claimed one kill against Tera Ghost Clefable when the game was largely already decided.
Peap vs LBN (W) – peap chipped zard x with icicle spear early and bax was sac’d to gholdengo later in the game.
Takatk vs seth (W) – Bax was never sent into play.
Gamer but swag vs BigFatMantis (W) – SD Scale Shot Bax behind Aurora Veil managed to set up two Swords Dances and get a +1 Spe boost after revealing Tera Poison. It claimed one kill against Skarmory and died to Scarf Urshifu-Rapid.
Isza vs Baloor (W) – Both players brought Bax. Isza’s bax sets up DD and misses Icicle Crash, losing 1v1 to Ogerpon-Hearthflame. Baloor never sent Bax into play.
Crying vs Ryuji (L) – Ryuji chips Ting-Lu with Loaded Dice icicle spear before later chipping Rotom-W with Scale Shot, Terastallizing into Ground type and dying to Hydro Pump.
Week 4: Bax goes 2-2. It made no impact game one, won game two and game three, had little impact game four.
lolebruh vs zioziotrip (L) – Bax died to +2 Sneasler.
Hellom vs gewwge (W) – Bax claims two kills to win after revealing Tera Poison on specs valiant.
Unowndragon vs avarice (W) – Mega Diancie dies after a SpA drop, allowing Bax to come in behind veil/sub and sweep against sun.
Seth vs Lameflame (L) – Bax kills a weakened Heatran before being walled at +1 to Tera Water Garg.
Week 5: Bax goes 1-0. It only appeared in one game, description below.
crying vs gewwge (W) – Bax survives on 1% HP turn one, fails to kill Zapdos with a two-turn Icicle Spear and dies to U-turn the following turn.
Week 6: Bax did not appear in a single game this week.
Week 7: Bax goes “1-2”. Bax claimed one kill in both g1 and g2 before being immediately revenged the following turn, and did not create any progress g3.
anique vs Ryuji (L) – DD Bax claims one kill on Moltres after dodging a hurricane and subsequently dies to Tera Normal E-speed Dragonite the following turn in a loss.
Fakenagol vs zioziotrip (L) – DD Bax eats one MIR from Gholdengo at -1 to kill Ghold, and is revenged by Scarf Lele the following turn in a loss.
Dunoks vs gewwge (W) – Bax attempts to set up in front of Hatterene. It gets paralyzed with Nuzzle as gewwge swaps into Fight-Z Kart and immediately revenge kills.
Semifinals: Bax goes 1-2. Bax made a huge impact in a close loss game 1, swept game 2 (unknown whether crit on Ghold mattered or not), made little progress game three.
crying vs Inder (L) – Easily the most impactful NDPL game featuring Tera Dragon Choice Scarf Bax. Crying picks up an early revenge kill on a paralyzed Sneasler early game, and threatened the majority of Inder’s team with Glaive Rush + hazard support which ultimately eliminated Gholdengo, then Tapu Lele, and then Rotom-W, including chipping bulky Volcarona before being stalled out of Glaive Rush PP in a very close loss.
Zioziotrip vs BigFatMantis (W) – Zio sets up screens before getting Bax in on a koko sac in front of Ghold. Bax crits Ghold from full and kills with +1 EQ before sweeping the remainder of BFM’s team with +2/+2 Tera Poison Bax. Unclear how much Def invest Ghold was running.
LBN vs Adriyun (L) – Bax is sent in on Turn 14 in an attempt to chip down Z-Haze Tapu Fini with EQ before losing the 1v1 in an eventual loss.
OVERALL IMPRESSIONS: In total, Baxcalibur was on the winning player’s team 15 times, with 8 losses. If wins and losses are the only metric that matter, Bax has a roughly 65% total W/L record across eight weeks of NDPL. However, Bax was not sent into play for a single turn in 3 of those games. Of the remaining games listed above, it is ultimately subjective to you the reader as to how much “progress” Baxcalibur needs to make in a game before you credit it with meaningfully contributing to a victory. Even if you credit it with all of the wins that were mostly (or almost entirely) facilitated by its other teammates and only subtract the three where it did not appear at all, the total winrate is roughly 12/23 or 52%.
Ursaluna-Bloodmoon
This was easily the most difficult pokemon to vote on for me, and no vote really felt correct. I ultimtely decided to vote Ban on Ursaluna-Bloodmoon, though I would have wanted more time to evaluate this. After Gholdengo's ban, I do think pokemon like Corviknight and Celesteela have a bit more of a defined niche, and in recent testing, I think something like SpDef Corviknight (IV'd to underspeed Bloona) paired with a strong breaker like Urshifu-Rapid, Ogerpon-Wellspring or Specs Lele does well to get these pokemon in safely to revenge or force a Tera at worst. I also think pokemon like Mega Latias and SubNP Hydreigon (Tera Steel) can act as decent stopgap measures to it, and other options situationally exist e.g. Mega Scizor or Tapu Fini to frustrate it further.
If the only set we were voting on was the standard Tera Poison CM+Moonlight set, I probably would have preferred to suspect this pokemon as well. The problem is, this pokemon is not quite so linear, and the arguments above do not take into consideration the effectiveness of other sets such as Normalium Z, its success on Trick Room teams, and the recent advent of Hyper Voice + Taunt sets to completely shut down fatter teams more than the traditional set already does. The proposed counterplay above also does not factor in Bloona behind screens, which completely shuts down your ability to revenge it with a stronger breaker as it lives even absurd hits e.g. Close Combat from CB Zama or Mega Medicham before Tera.
All in all, you either have pre-planned and dedicated forms of counterplay for Bloona, which may work, or you are generally forced to expend 1-3 team members to take it down. Unlike Bax, I do think there is ample evidence of Bloona running through teams both in NDPL and elsewhere, and the long term counterplay does not appear to be there even if we did give it more time to wait and see. This pokemon has also been in the tier for far less time than Bax, which at least as a matter of procedure, makes it easier for me to justify a ban.
--> I voted to suspect test Sneasler and plan on sharing my thoughts on this at a later time. It has arguably been suspect-worthy for some time now and is probably worth a test in a post-Gholdengo metagame, even if I (slightly) lean DNB at present. There is a lot of soft counterplay, but very little consistent defensive counterplay and the set variety it can pull off can be frustrating at times. --> One of the top threats to consider when building any competent team in the metagame, but not something I consider broken. We should continue to monitor how well the steels in our metagame handle it as time progresses, but it is too soon to tell. --> This pokemon is not broken and it is not on my personal radar. I am not the biggest believer in survey data, but this has consistently scored in the low 2's since the generation began (including with Gholdengo in the tier), and there is surely a reason for that. The versatility arguments overstate how much this pokemon can pull off at any given time and I cannot recall any notable games in recent memory which ended with Iron Valiant getting out of hand.
qb/sus only thing that should be up for qb sus sus no action yet : ceo of mid . com definitely no action only a problem for do nothing teams that try and predict if its phys or special set and switch in to some passive wall
I voted ban for Baxcalibur, particularly for its potency under Hail + Aurora Veil giving it boosted setup to run Dragon Dance/Swords Dance, and several viable attacks in Icicle Spear/Earthquake/Glaive Rush/Scale Shot. Moreover, even a neutral Tera type ruins plans for revenge by common Pokémon like Tapu Lele under screens, or the ever popular Tera Steel secures the 1v1 against typical checks like Mega Scizor (without Curse) as well as removes passive counter play like Toxic. When all is said and done, Baxcalibur can boost at least once in a typical game if not twice to put it out of range of almost all Choice Scarf users. While entry hazards present a problem to Baxcalibur running Loaded Dice, Great Tusk makes for a great partner and Rapid Spin user to clear the field for Baxcalibur without losing much momentum. And, Heavy-Duty Boots is a viable item for Baxcalibur to run.
Another example of effective and splashable wallbreaking is the simple Slowking-Galar + Baxcalibur core, in which Slowking’s pivot move Chilly Reception combines with Baxcalibur’s ability Ice Body and Leftovers to give it 12% recovery each turn as well as a Defense boost should it not have Terastellization. For context, that is Gliscor levels of passive recovery while having access to Dragon Dance and more potent Ice + Ground coverage. Baxcalibur typically runs Substitute, Earthquake, Icicle Crash, and Dragon Dance on these sets to take advantage of passive opponents like Alomomola, Toxapex, Rotom-Wash, and even Gliscor. Even Mega Scizor is not a reliable check after hazard damage and a +1 Earthquake, which can be bolstered by Tera Ground.
Regarding Ursaluna-Bloodmoon, I also voted ban. To add to what has already been said, Bloodmoon is an incredible abuser of Normalium Z. If you are running a balance team without Corviknight or Celesteela, you may find it laughably hard to pivot around the sequence of Blood Moon (140 bp) and its Breakneck Blitz version (200 bp) in either order. Dealing with an Earth Power vs Blood Moon “50/50” is already questionable regarding its competitiveness, especially factoring in the possibility of setup. One of the biggest drawbacks that Game Freak built into Blood Moon is the inability to use it consecutively. Z-moves turn that on its head and allow one to use Blood Moon more than just consecutively, which can surprise and cripple the gameplan of an opponent with other adaptations to Ursaluna, like switching in Ogerpon-Wellspring or a Flying-type into an anticipated Earth Power.
I remember 1v1ing this thing with sub zapdos in my match vs PugGod for r1 of last chance. I haxxed the hell out of him. Any other instance I'd apologise. Not this game. I was silent.
Ursaluna Blood Moon is irredeemable presence that is rid of far too late. You know that this does: CM + STABs and your option of recovery or vacuum wave priority. What's even worse here than in CG OU (where this was axed) is the fact that the counter play here kinda sucks into the metagame. I can count the people who are willing to run unaware clefable in a single hand - and I don't think they're thrilled at the prospect of running special defense EVs. Chansey and Blissey are the usual cope options for special attackers on stall, but they offer little else outside this role. Keep in mind, this is me ignoring the fact that Blissey is normally deadweight.
Quick ban this please. When OU did the suspect, nobody expected the results to be that overwhelming. I don't think I've seen anyone wanting this thing to stay. If you have evidence to the contrary, submit to me in DMs.
Good riddance. Gholdengo was part of the trio keeping this mon under wraps. Anything Sneasler set that could beat the bulky grounds or pex had a hard time with Gholdengo and vice-versa. But to be honest, Gholdengo stayed in the tier I would still support action on this mon. All the Gholdengo ban did in my opinion is hasten this thing getting on the chopping block.
If we were to suspect anything, I would suspect test Sneasel-H first. While I do think a quickban would be more expedient in getting rid of something that is this uncompetitve, I am not completely opposed to a suspect as a way of resolving any hesitancy among the council (even if it seems open-and-shut from my vantage). I will stress that I prefer a quick ban, since keeping this around is only going to obfuscate any future tiering action.
I have never faced it nor have I ever used it myself. There but for the grace of God go I.
I have nothing else meaningful to add there other than this being an obvious quickban as well.
I strongly believe that the council's discussion to "suspect" Iron Valiant and Tapu Lele is nothing more than a psyop. Tapu Lele and Iron Valiant should not be suspected (at least for now), and they should most definitely not be banned. I'm not gonna presume on behalf of the council's here, but I imagine the council is putting this up for a slate so they can "officially" add it to the watch-list for any future radars.
Out of the two, Tapu Lele is probably worse but I also have a suspicion it will be banned later. We can sit here for hours discussing every set and every optimisation, and every in-game permutation, but here's a 10 word calculus that simplifies the matter: Scarf Lele is for pleasure, Specs Lele is for business. It helps that Specs can double down with tera and dent specically defensive resists (most of which lack recovery in the first place). Iron Valiant is the more versatile and unpredictable mon of the two. However, it also has answers that can go the distance such as Toxapex in long-term slug fests (compared to, say, Heatran for Tapu Lele).
Quick banning these guys is a bit impulsive. Suspect testing them before DLC 2 is pointless because they're not that broken.
qb/sus only thing that should be up for qb sus sus no action yet : ceo of mid . com definitely no action only a problem for do nothing teams that try and predict if its phys or special set and switch in to some passive wall
Most of what there is to say about these mons has already been said, but I want to reiterate that sneasler is just a cheese generator that wins matches by pure force of RNG. Banning it, in my opinion, would be much akin to banning and would be perfectly justified.
Most of what there is to say about these mons has already been said, but I want to reiterate that sneasler is just a cheese generator that wins matches by pure force of RNG. Banning it, in my opinion, would be much akin to banning and would be perfectly justified.
While Dire Claw is unacceptably cheesy, I don’t think that’s the main problem. Swords Dance sets prefer Gunk Shot anyways, which is the true problem imo.
Anyways, here’s my opinion:
quickban, this thing is an absolute menace that steals games super easily
quick ban, basically ape 2.0 in my eyes
quick ban, braindead sweeper that contributes to our ho epidemic
no action for now. Honestly the only set I’ve seen is scarf and it’s not too bad to play around. I think once the others are gone it will be more manageable
suspect, set diversity, movepool depth, and freakish strength put it up there but it’s not necessarily as constraining as the big 3. Dropping this thing from S tier on the viability rankings was a criminal offense.
- QB these three.
- Suspect Test
- No Comment/No action (right now at least)
the only thing walling it is ferro and still +2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 147-174 (41.7 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
and ogerpon can make tera plays so i dont wanna hear no well if i predict right.. NO BE QUIET bc all this lil shit has to do is tera water and ur only mon that kills it dies and u needed to tera sum else to win like bro
and would be perfectly justified.