Metagame On The Radar (Update @ Post #79)

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bern

professional 1v1 fraud
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apparently my opinions actually matter now????????????????????? anyway i kinda forgot to talk here lol

:necrozma: i guess people thought the amount of darks would make it fine but yeah absolutely not, necrozma can still use all the tools it has that got it banned in ss it's kinda insane, qb.

:meloetta: necro but worse, not banworthy rn but can easily see it be terrible in future.

:hoopa-unbound: unless we're forced to run u-turn on every mon it's not gonna be op, av set is p good tho.

:cinderace: unpopular opinion but i think it's fine, sheer versatility might make it banworthy but not rn, think it's gonna take a while for it to be op


extra

:regidrago: it has been half a year that this pokemon is legal and nothing has been done about it, forces fairies like nothing else, please suspect it or something jesus christ.

:iron-valiant: it feels like it's the best and worst mon at the same time. - murm 2024
doesn't force fairies as much as drago so it's probably gonna be fine as meta develops

:primarina: building prim feels like cheating lol.

:archaludon:
1704302941340.png

the perfect ladder mon, it's pretty good ngl, number 1 is new toy syndrome tho.


ok that's all, suspect drago i've been asking since pl.
 
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kenn

Prince of the Halidom
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First ever 1v1 post and I am new on the scene (y'know what I mean? lol) but here are my thoughts:

:necrozma:This thing has way too many tools to make it worth sticking around imo. I have used and been abused by this and I would be happier if this thing was gone. qb

:meloetta:I haven't seen too much of this unlike Necro so I don't have much to say but it seems like it could be a problem down the line but not a pressing issue. abstain

:hoopa unbound:This thing is fine from my experience. It can be scary in preview, but in practice it does well but isn't overbearing. dnb

:cinderace:I am actually okay with this right now, but I do see the issues with this and could see it going eventually. abstain

extra (s/o to Bernian for doing this which inspired me lol)
:regidrago:This thing is so much fun to use but that is because I think it is just slightly op and therefore definitely deserves a suspect as it kinda mandates Fairies on a team to not either have a big problem with or just autolose to this.

:custap berry: I am not sure if I am in the minority or majority, but I absolutely think this item is just unhealthy af for 1v1. The MUs get flipped turned upside down so just sit right there and I'll tell you how I became the prince of a town called Bel-Air...uh...sorry about that but for real, I think this item going would make the meta a lot healthier even if this particular item isn't necessarily broken...it is just unhealthy.

:primarina: Love this mon so far. There have been some fun things I have been messing with (Charm + CM and Specs specifically) and it feels like a solid choice for teams especially with Regidrago running around lol

:archaludon: I think this mon is stupidly good but I don't consider it broken. It has enough tools to run a multitude of sets but they all have the issue of having a less-than-stellar SpD and not being the fastest mon available so I can see this being top tier but don't see it going anywhere.
 

DripLegend

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Council has been eyeing a lot of the new development for DLC2, and since there's a high amount of variance in top mons we want to gauge opinion on a couple threats that have seen as contentious lately.

:gouging fire:
Gouging Fire has shown itself to be incredibly powerful with most of its attack booster sets allowing it to nuke a large portion of the tier. If those weren't already appealing enough the amount of flavor options it has is also vast, such as Assault Vest, Haban Berry, and defense boosting variants. The utility moves it also has are all incredibly useful, most notably Burning Bulwark and Noble Roar allow it to handle a couple of the bulkier threats it comes across. While it is not unstoppable and has its weaknesses it pairs very well with most other mons in the tier so it can usually expect to have a least some utility in game.

:archaludon:
Archaludon has been a hot topic as of DLC2, and one of the strongest mons we received with DLC outside of prim and gouging. Power Herb has been the common set of choice lately, running both Meteor Beam and Electro Shot (which covers a great amount of the tier on its own), and putting out insane amounts of damage. The set variety it has is very threatening on preview as well as in the builder, the likes of Custap, AV, and Chople all flipping matchups that Power Herb would struggle with on it's own. Its speed tier as well sets it apart from a lot of metagame threats, allowing it to usually safely get off its boosting coverage moves.


:regidrago:
Regidrago is something that people are all too familiar with this gen. Dragon moves beating a lot of the tier minus steels and fairies puts a lot more weight on it in game, leading to a lot of "coinflip" matchups. Regidrago also pairs up well with fairy checks, so it can usually have favorable or 2-1 matchups in a broad sense, or at least promotes more cores that match up well into it (DFS). With DLC2 it did receive new counters in Iron Crown and Primarina, so it is not totally unbeatable or hard to match up well into, but it does raise questions of being unhealthy for the overall metagame due to the nature of Regidrago.

OTR will close next Sunday at 11:59 PM -6. Feel free to discuss any of the Pokémon listed in the post. Be respectful since flaming doesn’t help any form of debate, and any one liners will be deleted.
 
:Gouging Fire:
I've played with Zard-X; this doesn't frighten me.

Gouging Fire is good, but it feels healthy. At present, Gouging Fire only has two real sets: booster and haban berry. Both have similar counters (Primarina, banded Donphan, Archaludon, Ursaluna, Landorus, etc.). So far, Gouging Fire has displayed very limited ability to tech it's counters, only gaining a couple of matchups by switching evs or by adding substitute, and the list of things it beats is not excessive. If something like bulky breaking swipe or stall take off and demonstrate that they are actually good sets, then it might warrant looking at. But at present, it seems to be a king in the mold of Hobbes's leviathan: without it, 1v1 games would be poor, brutish, and short. DNB

:Archaludon:
As I've said in the metagame discussion thread, Archaludon is likely banworthy, though I would rather see a suspect than a quickban. Archaludon is able to pick and choose what it loses to, and the only hard counter I'm aware of is babiri berry Whismicott. This pokemon has the tools to tech every single matchup apart from that, and techs most matchups with only two major sets. Additionally, both the AV and power herb sets are independently very good and beat a large number of meta threats, meaning the opportunity cost of adding techs is very low. Suspect

:Regidrago:
I'm rather indifferent on Regidrago. It's certainly good, and you have to respect it in builder, but it doesn't feel particularly overwhelming right now. As DEG has noted elsewhere, Regidrago isn't clearly something that warps the meta; we would already have a dragon-centered meta without the dragon orb pokemon. Additionally, the opportunity cost of not having something like Metagross, Primarina, or Sylveon on your team is quite high anyway. I'm also of the opinion that the list of things that beat Regidrago is long enough to allow for some interesting teambuilding, though it's certainly harder to find unorthodox counters to than many of the other strong dragons in the tier given that it is the Platonic ideal dragon type given form.
That doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't exert an unhealthy influence on the tier by further binding the tier to the DFF/DFS meta. At present, though, that's unclear, and I expect there's no great way to test it. Suspect because of popular demand
 
:Gouging Fire:
Strong but in a healthy way. Unlike Regidrago, you know it's always going to be physical, so you're not constrained by having to be bulky on both sides. Stall sets exist but so rare they don't even appear in last month's usage (I'm happy to revise the post next week when February usage stats are released). Lastly it's weak to one of the most commonly used moves, Earthquake, so you have plenty of counter options to consider without being limited to one type.
DNB

:Archaludon:
I can see the growing concern with that one, as it appears to have become very versatile. It does share a Ground weakness with Gouging Fire so I'm sure there's something to exploit there... I am personally indifferent to Archaludon so I'll
ABSTAIN

:Regidrago:
Impossible to predict. Oh you're physically bulky? Take a Dragon Energy to the face. Oh you're wearing an Assault Vest? How cute, here's an Outrage for you. Oh you're fast? Too bad, I'm faster with Scarf and ohko you first. Oh you're a Fairy? Meet my Fire and Steel buddies, now flip that coin.
Have you maybe not considered that if you're struggling with Gouging and Archaludon, it's maybe because that guy forces you to have a fairy and a steel in your team? Make it gone and you'll have so many new options to deal with the other two. And also, as my upstairs neighbour rightfully said:
This is why we SHOULD prioritize/suspect Regidrago.
1708815381936.png

SUSPECT NEXT (I'm obviously pro-ban, but believe that we should abide by what was decided)
 
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DripLegend

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Moderator
:gouging fire:
this thing is like zard x in typing and gameplay, people aren't rly messing around with the quirky stuff on it but i think it's been a fine equalizer and hasn't been as damaging as the other two on here.

:archaludon:
i think this guys a problem! maybe not rly but it's just annoying to fully cover and it's weirdly versatile so that doesn't aid it. it has some counters that do fine against any set but they're all fairly linear and are easy to check through building or other arch sets (sub seeders, av fightings, mold breaker mons). i do think it leans on the side of being too much for the tier and i'd like to do something abt it rly. idk if this contributes to the oversaturation of threats that i feel has been an issue lately but this mon has been a force that i think could potentially be a lot for us to handle.

:regidrago:
people don't know how to argue around this mon lmfao. i want it out da tier but idk if doing it before like arch is something i want atm. both sides of this mon's arguments are obtuse on both sides when neither is super accurate to its nature. yes people will still run fairies and steels without regidrago, and yes it does find itself having less utility than one might see in other dragons similar to the ones on this otr slate. however, what it does do is simplify previews and make overall gameplay way too linear in a way that i think is conducing an unhealthy environment. that is an aspect that i have felt around drago for a minute, and i think arguing in circles about it is and has been leading nowhere really. while most mons we look at primarily focus on the building aspect we really can't just neglect the entire other clicking aspect of gameplay. i have no real preference of this mon or arch going up first rly.
 
This is why we SHOULD prioritize/suspect Regidrago.
View attachment 607801
I think it’s counterintuitive to suspect drago now if you want it banned.

If it’s suspected now and it doesn’t lead to a ban, it will be much harder to suspect it in the future (people will think council is just trying to get the result they wanted all along).

Along with this, a suspect now would be dominated with annoyance from the wider community that gouging or archaludon weren’t taken care of before which could lead to disingenuous voting.

What some of you are missing is there WILL be a suspect. The only thing that’s up in the air is the timing.
 
just wanted to post my quick thoughts:

:regidrago:

i feel like as of late the community has been leaning towards wanting to suspect things on principle rather than what those things do in practice, we see this with the custap suspect + the support for a drago suspect right now, and honestly i don't really get it. while good, regidrago doesn't feel particularly constraining with the influx of good steels + prim in dlc. it's not even the best dragon rn with gouging and arch around

:archaludon:

if i had to suspect one of the dragons it'd probably be this, i think it's fine but it's not always easy to cover because it's very versatile
mostly it's just annoying though, wouldn't vote ban on this

:gouging fire:

largely echo the sentiment in this thread that this is a healthy presence in the tier


honestly the current meta is fine, i see no reason to rush into trying to ban any of these three right now. free chi-yu though...
 

bern

professional 1v1 fraud
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pokemon

:regidrago: i already posted about drago

:archaludon: when this pokemon first released i thought people were just interested in it because of new toy syndrome, but then it kept getting used and more and more sets were getting discovered and now it's here. that said it's ridiculous how versatile this mon is, it can do just about everything, from turning into a fish murder bridge machine, to an incredibly bulky special attacker that took hits like a champ and got bulkier if you hit it, to doing insane burst damage with specs or metal sound and even band sets existed, the versatility just goes wild and concrete answers are few and far between. currently this deserves a suspect more than regidrago and i believe it will be the end result of the OTR. an archaludon suspect followed by regidrago, seeing how everyone has responded, which i mostly agree with.

:gouging-fire: this guy is an oddball, on one hand it doesn't hold the same versatility as archaludon and gets easily answered by it as well. but on the other hand it's a pretty consistent pokemon all things considered, being able to hold its own against most of the meta, it's still probably the best mon in the tier, but it's really not as suffocating as the other two, people draw coincidences between this and zardx and i think it's a fair comparison, given how they both play (aside from the fact it doesn't get wisp which is sad, but at least you got a move that protects and can cause burn so that's pretty good), it could be op after these two leave (hopefully), but the future is just uncertain enough that i can't really say if we'll end up just like oras (which is fine), or if we'll end up having to cut this guy (which might be also fine depending on what occurs after the OTR)
 

DEG

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Honestly the metagame is fine and I would vote DNB on every suspect if it happens. Even if some archetypes are more popular than others or more overpowered, I believe the metagame is currently balanced. Both meta mons and anti meta mons are thriving and I don't believe the current equilibrium should be adjusted.

:regidrago: DEG would call this guy mid, but I'm impressed with the focus energy set however I still believe Regidrago is still the third best Dragon-type after the other guys. Regidrago can actually beat a lot of non steel/fairy Pokemon and now with its "new" set it can finesse corviknight and registeel but still it has an important list of counters and has opportunity cost when it comes to it using other evs/sets lol. I've seen this guy lose to Venusaur and Ogerpon-H. It also does not really create any 50/50 on preview more than any other "great" Pokemon. S type mons (Gouging and Arch) also may force them being 2-1s in alot of cases unless you want to cram checks on checks just like Regidrago. I see no difference between Drago and the other Dragons. If we were to suspect him I'd go deeper into the points but it's really not worth it lol. DNS/DNB

:Gouging-Fire: Potential to be broken but still not really broken. While its typing is really good offensive and defensively it's still linear - running the same items and moves. It has the potential to do some crazy stuff but as long as its usage is linear I see no reason to suspect it. It also def still has a good number of checks and counters in the metagame okay. DNS/DNB

:Archaludon: While I was a hater at first, I'm actually impressed. I think this guy might be the best Dragon out of the three just because consistently beating it is hard. It has many great sets specially with Metal Burst and Body Press+Stamina gaining traction recently. While it may 5050 some fairies (Ninetales-A and Val :sob:) its still amazing and consistently good into all team structures due to its typing and moves. If you want to suspect someone. S/DNB

Not a lot of detail just some opinion stuff. hf.
 

lost heros

Meme Master
I wanted to make a longer post, but got lazy so I didn’t. But there’s definitely going to be time for my opinions and longer form reasoning later, so it’s fine.

:regidrago: This thing is initially extremely threatening. A bulky single-typed strong mixed attacker forces linear match-ups. A lot player resentment is because they feel forced to answer it through a Fairy or Steel type, hence how it can seem “over-centralizing”. In reality, I’ve never seen a 1v1 metagame where Fire, Steel, Dragon, and Fairy types are not top tier. You’re going to run counters to Regidrago naturally, and it’s not centralizing the tier, but rather is limited by the tier. I would also argue the Regidrago is plagued by opportunity cost on its item slot, more so now than ever before. There’s a significant amount of strong Dragons in the tier and thus Regidrago really wants to run Haban Berry. Doing so sacrifices a lot of power and speed and opens up Regidrago to more frequently losing non-linear match-ups vs things like Ogerpon.

:Gouging Fire: There is no point right now to talk about this pokemon, in my opinion. It is extremely good, but also people are still running Bulwark on it. Like I get it, scouting is good and all, the burn chance is helpful, an answer to custap is valuable, but please try running substitute. Be more like Zard. I promise you won’t regret it. In a month or two, it will be extremely obvious that this mon is either completely fine or totally busted. I’m betting on completely fine.

:Archaludon: Now the actual problem child. Archaludon is an absurdly good Pokémon with not just power, but also flexibility. Obviously Power Herb Electro Shot is good, but Arch can also easily get a lot of success running AV + Stamina Body Press or Scarf / Custap. Where Regidrago suffers from having to carefully choose its item slot or else it loses key match-ups, Arch can change or mix sets (you don’t have to run Meteor Beam on Power Herb sets guys) to better capture different match-ups. Its core match-ups stay the same but is now able to reach other pokemon more easily.
 
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I’m a new mid ladder player who’s played some games but I think I have a good enough grasp on the tier to comment. But today I’m gonna talk about one mon.

:sv/Archaludon:

This is an instance beast who’s first carried by its typing. Steel/Dragon is honestly the perfect typing in this meta, with the Dragons and Fairies running around, only weak to Ground- and Fighting- which aren’t super duper prevelant themselves (Ursaluna at A- and Annihilape and Urshifu at B+), so you really have to rely on coverage from Steel-types like Metagross and ig Iron Crown. Sturdy is just not an okay ability, but that’s just an add-on at this point. You have Power Herb sets, Sturdy+Mirror Coat, AV, Body Press+Stamina, and you really lose no value out of it when you choose a “less used” set. Seeing Archaludon is scary af in team preview and the best way to beat it is (AV) Steel-types and if you don’t have one yourself then good luck. I truly believe Arch should be suspected then banned
 
as someone whos pushed for drago ban a lot this gen, my argument has never been about overcentralization and forcing dfs or anything like that. the reality is dfs teams are just good irrespective of the three mons on the radar right now, especially in a gen like sv where there are a lot of fish mons that do a lot of different things (referencing a post by armaldo in the last suspect thread).

drago is also not broken in the sense that you pray to allah whenever you pick into it - it just loses to a lot of steels and all fairies besides dedenne. ice types and some opposing dragons are also notable, but the point is counterplay to drago does exist. the relative lack diversity of counterplay is notable, however, and i will address that a bit later. you can point to people getting clipped by wp thrash or razor claw dd laser focus as examples of drago getting past counterplay, but these sets, while funny, are more niche than say stall gouging or stamina archaludon at this point. bottom line is by no stretch of the imagination is drago overly restricting.

the main thing I've always disliked about drago is it linearizes gameplay to mostly the type chart, which is different than gouging 50/50s which deg brings up because gouging, charizard in oras etc have more diversity of counterplay. so from a gameplay perspective, i find it unhealthy.

:regidrago:- that being said the support isnt there for suspecting this atm so do not suspect

:gouging-fire:- nothing to say others haven't already, do not suspect. its versatility is overstated tbh but its raw mus are powerful

:archaludon:- i think its the best mon in the tier overall and it has so many options that are underexplored. i think council should vote to suspect it, i'll probably vote dnb though rn
 

recti

formerly Arvinraj K III C
:regidrago: I think this mon is just over rated at this point as crucify said there are sets that beat some of it's counters but in order to do that these niche sets sacrifice alot of things such as an item slot or dragon dance/scale shot.But still the point is simple whatever you do you arent beating the top fairies like prim and and val.I think council should NOT suspect it.

:gouging fire: this thing is shown to have a lot more sets than it actually has lol, It has counterplay in primarina and archaludon, it's more powerful friend. Sure you could say "hey arvin you are forgeting that sunny day noble roar gouging beats prim" all I say is that's too much oppurtunity cost and that is totally fake. DNS

:archaludon: This is the only mon you guys should even think about suspecting but idt its overpowered or overcentralizing. It has 3sets power herb,custap and iron press av.This mon is better than both the other dragons (ngl i thought vr council was dumb cuz they put gouging higher than arc in VR).I think they should suspect this mon just because alot want it gone and i think their argument is reasonable but I think im gonna vote dnb.
and with all that arvin out
 

DripLegend

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Moderator
This edition of OTR has come to a close and thanks to those of you that posted/expressed opinion on the current metagame. Council voted on suspecting either Archaludon or abstaining on currently suspecting to let the metagame develop further (results in the table below).

dripdegdelemonkaiflittbortm
sus archsus archsus archno suspectsno suspectsno suspectsno suspects

As such we will not be holding a suspect for a minute and instead give the current metagame more chances to grow and time before moving forward. We will continue to monitor the pokemon mentioned in this post and current developments throughout circuit tournaments, and will likely have another tiering survey out before PL.
 
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