Old Mon BST/Ability Change Discussion

[nameless90]

The problem I find with Gigalith in Singles as a Sand setter is that you stack another Fighting weakness with Excadrill and with Tyranitar. Hippodown has some Spe problems coupled with a bad 4MSS, which often made it pressured by the opponent to click recovery. I don't think that can retaliate a room for itself in OU.

High hopes for Torkoal (and A-Ninetales) in OU as new weather setters. Torkoal has a nice role compression: sets Sun + has SR + Rapid Spin (in this generation Rapid Spin is spammed everywhere...). I hope that weather wards are coming back!

Cryogonal has a very good boost in its base stats (+10 HP and +20 Def) which desperately needed. Now it is a spinner that might survive a physical hit ===> UU ? Flavour wise, it needed to have Snow Warning and it is a shame it still has only Levitate (even though it is good).

Poor Gengar, is still OU material, but now it will lose a free immunity provided by Levitate. This means that now has less switch-ins opportunities (numerical bulk isn't everything), but still remains a strong SpA attacker.

 

[Siggu]

Torkoal has a nice role compression: sets Sun + has SR + Rapid Spin (in this generation Rapid Spin is spammed everywhere...). I hope that weather wards are coming back!

Torkoal also happens to have marginally higher overall bulk than Skarmory (70/140/70 vs 65/140/70) if walling is absolutely necessary for it, even if it's weak to SR.

 

[TURBODERP]

Torkoal also happens to have marginally higher overall bulk than Skarmory (70/140/70 vs 65/140/70) if walling is absolutely necessary for it, even if it's weak to SR.

No reliable recovery sucks though.

 

[STEELDRAGON]

Beartic is going to wreck shit on hail teams. Mantine is going to be very difficult for special attackers to take down. Pelipper and Gigalith got massive boosts to. Dugtrio really needed that boost it was pretty weak. Dodrio got a buff to and will be hard to wall.

 

[urkerab]

According to a dump of in-game messages:

Mud Sport
The power of Electric-type moves will be halved for five turns.

So it seems to have been nerfed a little.

Bulba says it's like that since Gen6 :x

Generation VI

Mud Sport is now active for five turns, even if the user switches out.

Since you'd never leave Mantine in on a physical Electric attack even with Mud Sport, isn't Amnesia superior to Mud Sport anyways?

The point was that Mud Sport reduced damage to a third in Generation V/VI and this would have made it more viable had it not been for the Generation VII flavour text suggesting that it's back to a half.

 

[Roxachronic]

Gigalith will probably be very good against rain in doubles in VGC17 now. Running AV and max HP/Sdef, doubles Politoed can't reliably 5HKO it with Scald in sand and Pelliper is even worse, the burn nerfs even save him from that being a major factor. Tapu Koko can't reliably 3HKO with a max spA invested thunder with electric terrain up (not to mention the fact that auto sand ruins his 100acc making it a dodgy move choice). It's basically max speed in trick room as well and has STAB rock slide off of base 130 attack.

Sun for all intents and purposes won't be a factor in 17 due to a lack of good chlorophyll users and it's even nastier against hail.

Dont count the coal before is burned up, I can see Torkoal on a TR team without problem, having auto sun+ Eruption does a good bit of damage, like it should be more than Char-Y Heat Wave with a Charcoal or a Specs set for nuking things.

 

[Kietharr]

Special tank Gigalith still does very well against Torkoal even without sand up. Full power Eruption from max spA torkoal (a generous assumption) hardly tickes Gigalith, it's about a 5HKO on 252hp/0sdef AV Gigalith in sun. Earth Power and Solar Beam are both 3HKOs but are single target attacks. 0 atk rock slide from Gigalith is a 3HKO on the aforementioned max spA set and 4HKO on a fully defensive set, and it's a double attack. If sand's up from a Giggy switch in he just flat out wins the matchup. Gigalith also thrives in TR with Torkoal being the only weather warrior slower than him.

Granted it's not all about 1-1 matchups in doubles but I think Gigalith seems to be the perfect anti-weather weather abuser for TR.

 

[Roxachronic]

Special tank Gigalith still does very well against Torkoal even without sand up. Full power Eruption from max spA torkoal (a generous assumption) hardly tickes Gigalith, it's about a 5HKO on 252hp/0sdef AV Gigalith in sun. Earth Power and Solar Beam are both 3HKOs but are single target attacks. 0 atk rock slide from Gigalith is a 3HKO on the aforementioned max spA set and 4HKO on a fully defensive set, and it's a double attack. If sand's up from a Giggy switch in he just flat out wins the matchup. Gigalith also thrives in TR with Torkoal being the only weather warrior slower than him.

Granted it's not all about 1-1 matchups in doubles but I think Gigalith seems to be the perfect anti-weather weather abuser for TR.

I am not talking only about Torkoal vs Gigalith matchup, but mostly on its overall potential in doubles as a Sun setter or a powerhouse in TR teams, Gigalith is indeed pretty bulky though, I want to test it but as a Gravity setter for my gimmicky gravity team, still Tapus are going to become a thing so I was planning on using Tapu Bulu as a way to nerf EQ and deal with oposing Ground, Rock and Water mons, it should be able to 2OHKO Gigalith, is early to tell how the meta will be anyways.

 

[Bugzy]

So I'm sure he's still terrible but Ariados does get fell stinger and leech life which have both been buffed. I know his +10 SpD is pretty insignificant but do you guys think he might be better now in lower tiers with the improved bug moves?

He does get some priority attacks so I was thinking a strategy where you try to grab a kill with fell stinger then spam +3 boosted priority attacks could be fun. Hopefully in the future he gets first impression since currently none of his priority moves get STAB.

 

[breh]

So I'm sure he's still terrible but Ariados does get fell stinger and leech life which have both been buffed. I know his +10 SpD is pretty insignificant but do you guys think he might be better now in lower tiers with the improved bug moves?

It already has megahorn so neither is good in comparison. Fell stinger is a shitty move that will only ever be viable if something with technician gets it.

 

[Swagodile]

It already has megahorn so neither is good in comparison. Fell stinger is a shitty move that will only ever be viable if something with technician gets it.

Or Adaptability.

Fell Stinger was fulled to 50 BP this gen, so when used by Mega Beedrill, it's 100 BP.

 

[Divine Retribution]

Or Adaptability.

Fell Stinger was fulled to 50 BP this gen, so when used by Mega Beedrill, it's 100 BP.

Beedrill makes a much better pivot with U-Turn though. Fell Stinger might let him clean late-game sometimes (in the same vein as Swords Dance, which also isn't a particularly viable option for Mega Beedrill), but I can't really see it having much use most of the time. Early-mid game, Beedrill usually plays by revengekilling shit with its STABs and Knock Off and clicking U-Turn.

On the other hand, it won't need to run Protect anymore, but I'd still rather just give it both Knock Off and Drill Run on the same set.

 

[Je-Muzu]

Sorry to ask but would we be able to get the alola forms bst changes added to the op, or is there somewhere else it could be put so all the data is together.

 

[Martin]

Remember how a fighting mega triangle formed when ORAS was released? Well, there's a non-mega bird one now too:

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[MegaFlareon]

Remember how a fighting mega triangle formed when ORAS was released? Well, there's a non-mega bird one now too:

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The good thing is, unlike the fighting trio, you can use all these birds in the same team a la Bird Spam.

 

[Bidoofmydoof]

I feel like buffed Dodrio is an alternative to Staraptor now. It has 10 less attack but more speed than Staraptor and a weaker fighting move but access to Swords Dance. So, I mean, it's literally Staraptor as a setup sweeper. It's also slightly harder to safely send in because of no Intimidate but because of its higher speed, getting that Swords Dance in offers a larger payoff than Staraptor. I hope it rises from PU.

 

[Roxachronic]

Beedrill makes a much better pivot with U-Turn though. Fell Stinger might let him clean late-game sometimes (in the same vein as Swords Dance, which also isn't a particularly viable option for Mega Beedrill), but I can't really see it having much use most of the time. Early-mid game, Beedrill usually plays by revengekilling shit with its STABs and Knock Off and clicking U-Turn.

On the other hand, it won't need to run Protect anymore, but I'd still rather just give it both Knock Off and Drill Run on the same set.

Remember that speed mechanics have changed for Megas, this means Mega Beedrill can scare mons much more easily so setting up Swords Dance now could be much less of a problem, I think this gen Mega Beedrill could be much more viable because it is now not dependant on protect.

 

[Martin]

I feel like buffed Dodrio is an alternative to Staraptor now. It has 10 less attack but more speed than Staraptor and a weaker fighting move but access to Swords Dance. So, I mean, it's literally Staraptor as a setup sweeper. It's also slightly harder to safely send in because of no Intimidate but because of its higher speed, getting that Swords Dance in offers a larger payoff than Staraptor. I hope it rises from PU.

It also lacks Reckless and can't afford to run Adamant due to it's speed tier being so important, making the immediate power difference fucking huge even before considering the fact it probably runs Return>Double edge and is limited to Jump Kick>Close Combat, further weakening it on it's Normal-type STAB and Fighting-type coverage:

(Using Choice Band for comparison)
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 364-430 (106.7 - 126%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Dodrio Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 262-309 (76.8 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Siggu]

It also lacks Reckless and can't afford to run Adamant due to it's speed tier being so important, making the immediate power difference fucking huge:

(Using Choice Band for comparison)
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 364-430 (106.7 - 126%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Dodrio Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 262-309 (76.8 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Between Brave Bird and Jump Kick Dodrio gets practically all the coverage it needs, and it will hit harder after a Swords Dance. Choice Band does not look like a good idea IMO.

I could see it as a non-Mega Pinsir in terms of playstyles, similar coverage, access to Swords Dance and identical speed tier.

Dodrio @ Life Orb
Ability: Early Bird
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Brave Bird
- Return / Quick Attack / Knock Off
- Jump Kick

 

[Bidoofmydoof]

It also lacks Reckless and can't afford to run Adamant due to it's speed tier being so important, making the immediate power difference fucking huge even before considering the fact it probably runs Return>Double edge and is limited to Jump Kick>Close Combat, further weakening it on it's Normal-type STAB and Fighting-type coverage:

(Using Choice Band for comparison)
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 364-430 (106.7 - 126%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Dodrio Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 262-309 (76.8 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The difference is that Dodrio has access to Swords Dance. I precisely called it a setup version of Staraptor because I know before Swords Dance it won't nuke like Staraptor could. Staraptor is easier to use as well because of Intimidate, but if you get the Swords Dance with Dodrio it'll do more damage without being locked to a move or speed tying with everything.

 

[Martin]

The difference is that Dodrio has access to Swords Dance. I precisely called it a setup version of Staraptor because I know before Swords Dance it won't nuke like Staraptor could. Staraptor is easier to use as well because of Intimidate, but if you get the Swords Dance with Dodrio it'll do more damage without being locked to a move or speed tying with everything.

1. Nobody uses Intimidate Staraptor. They're literally all Reckless
2. I know you said that. I just said "immediate power" 'cause that was my point, and used CB 'cause they're both on the calculator already and I didn't want to have to modify them
3. Staraptor (and Swellow) can use a Z move that serves the same purpose as SD (Z-Mirror Move gives it +2 Atk)

I recognise the key draws to Dodrio over Staraptor (110 speed), I was just responding to the bit where you compared the attack stats more than anything to get across the point that while the power difference is minor on paper it is pretty fucking massive in practice, and I expect that it'll have a very big case of Mega Gallade syndrome where it is an arkward middle-ground pick that isn't often worth using over the other.

 

[Jaguar360]

Work Up Mega Sceptile should be cool. Looking at the damage calcs, using it for mixed attacking purposes seems kinda meh, but the special attack boost is really valuable. With Work Up, the Talonflame nerfs, and the change in Mega Evolution speed mechanics allowing it to run Modest/Rash, things seem to be looking up for Mega Sceptile this generation overall.

Sceptile-Mega @ Sceptilite
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest / Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Work Up
- Energy Ball / Giga Drain
- Dragon Pulse
- Focus Blast / Hidden Power Fire

+1 252+ SpA Mega Sceptile Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 188+ SpD Heatran: 340-402 (88 - 104.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Mega Sceptile Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 188+ SpD Heatran: 310-366 (80.3 - 94.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252 SpA Mega Sceptile Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 324-382 (92 - 108.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ SpA Mega Sceptile Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 356-420 (101.1 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252+ SpA Mega Sceptile Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 210-248 (62.8 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Mega Sceptile Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 192-226 (57.4 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+1 252+ SpA Mega Sceptile Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 84+ SpD Clefable: 199-235 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ SpA Mega Sceptile Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 84+ SpD Clefable: 238-282 (60.4 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Mega Sceptile Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 84+ SpD Clefable: 217-256 (55 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 SpA Mega Sceptile Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Florges: 163-193 (45.2 - 53.6%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ SpA Mega Sceptile Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Florges: 180-213 (50 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+1 252 SpA Mega Sceptile Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Tapu Bulu: 158-188 (46 - 54.8%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ SpA Mega Sceptile Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Tapu Bulu: 174-206 (50.7 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

 

[Bidoofmydoof]

1. Nobody uses Intimidate Staraptor. They're literally all Reckless
2. I know you said that. I just said "immediate power" 'cause that was my point, and used CB 'cause they're both on the calculator already and I didn't want to have to modify them
3. Staraptor (and Swellow) can use a Z move that serves the same purpose as SD (Z-Mirror Move gives it +2 Atk)

I recognise the key draws to Dodrio over Staraptor (110 speed), I was just responding to the bit where you compared the attack stats more than anything to get across the point that while the power difference is minor on paper it is pretty fucking massive in practice, and I expect that it'll have a very big case of Mega Gallade syndrome where it is an arkward middle-ground pick that isn't often worth using over the other.

Yeah, Staraptor has more immediate power. As for the z-move, if Staraptor uses its item slot for a pseudo Swords Dance then Dodrio gets to use its own held item/z-move for whatever other purpose. I guess it'll only be sure when this is all in practice. Roost and +20 HP is being hyped as enough to make Mantine relevant. Unfortunately, Dodrio's best ability is freaking Early Bird.

 

[Araquanid]

My Thoughts:
Arbok: Attack boost is irrelevant, still a trash mon.

I made an account on website just to tell you that Arbok is a very effective set up tank/sweeper in PU Singles and that this attack boost is very relevant; now Arbok will be even more menacing after a single Coil boost

Granted, Arbok does already OHKO or 2HKO a fair deal of the PU landscape at the moment that's not at all defense invested after a single Coil boost, but I wonder if this small attack boost will allow it to reliably 2HKO some defensive walls after a Coil boost?

 

[Martin]

Work Up Mega Sceptile should be cool. Looking at the damage calcs, using it for mixed attacking purposes seems kinda meh, but the special attack boost is really valuable. With Work Up, the Talonflame nerfs, and the change in Mega Evolution speed mechanics allowing it to run Modest/Rash, things seem to be looking up for Mega Sceptile this generation overall.

Sceptile-Mega @ Sceptilite
Ability: Overgrow
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest / Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Work Up
- Energy Ball / Giga Drain
- Dragon Pulse
- Focus Blast / Hidden Power Fire

+1 252+ SpA Mega Sceptile Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 188+ SpD Heatran: 340-402 (88 - 104.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Mega Sceptile Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 188+ SpD Heatran: 310-366 (80.3 - 94.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252 SpA Mega Sceptile Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 324-382 (92 - 108.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ SpA Mega Sceptile Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 356-420 (101.1 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252+ SpA Mega Sceptile Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 210-248 (62.8 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Mega Sceptile Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 192-226 (57.4 - 67.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+1 252+ SpA Mega Sceptile Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 84+ SpD Clefable: 199-235 (50.5 - 59.6%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ SpA Mega Sceptile Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 84+ SpD Clefable: 238-282 (60.4 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Mega Sceptile Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 84+ SpD Clefable: 217-256 (55 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+1 252 SpA Mega Sceptile Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Florges: 163-193 (45.2 - 53.6%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ SpA Mega Sceptile Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Florges: 180-213 (50 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

+1 252 SpA Mega Sceptile Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Tapu Bulu: 158-188 (46 - 54.8%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ SpA Mega Sceptile Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Tapu Bulu: 174-206 (50.7 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

TBH this serves a lot of the same purpose as Grassy Terrain did on it, aside from obviously the coverage thing. I don't think it'll be that big with Work Up 'cause it's rlly frail, only gets a +1 boost out of it (not that useful in the great scheme of things) and is strapped for moveslots with it. I'd much rather just pair it with Tapu Bulu (or whichever the Grass-type tapu is) or something.

I made an account on website just to tell you that Arbok is a very effective set up tank/sweeper in PU Singles and that this attack boost is very relevant; now Arbok will be even more menacing after a single Coil boost

Granted, Arbok does already OHKO or 2HKO a fair deal of the PU landscape at the moment that's not at all defense invested after a single Coil boost, but I wonder if this small attack boost will allow it to reliably 2HKO some defensive walls after a Coil boost?

Either way it's PU so I don't get your point here