Does this sentence not make sense to anyone else or am i just being dumb/reading it wrong
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Project Old Gen Hackmons Megathread
- Thread starter Ransei
- Start date
If you were to make a nomination, be elaborate and explain precisely why you feel the Pokémon warrants the nomination. You could be specific Pokémon they beat. For example, they could outmatch various Pokémon above or around it on the viability rankings. It could also be because they truly provide a valuable niche that can serve as useful for consistent wins in the metagame. Don't just say "Entei should be S rank in the Wonder Guard viability rankings because I like it and have won some games with it." Provide valuable information over what it takes advantage of to help you consistently win against the standard metagame, then have some sort of known evidence somewhere that you know what you're doing, either through ladder ranks, consistent tour results, or being able to serve under the role of council, which usually comes with metagame experience.
Reasons I think Gyarados-Mega is dumb stupid and ugly (Gen 6)
1: It can’t run almost any wonder guard
Gyarados-Mega as an offensive huge power mon cannot hit most wg This is usually not much of a problem for other huge power pokemon and those like mmx, regigigas, slaking and many more have extreme variation in sets meaning that even a wg that you cannot hit is still offensively pressured, the surprise factor that these hold is an extreme strength. Gyarados-Mega is most cases not allowed such freedom. Most Gyarados-Mega use a set of -generic dark stab -water shuriken -pursuit -filler, really only leaving 1 move slot to surprise factor. I know many may say something along the lines of “well what about getting rid of one of the 3 moves from before that’s good surprise factor” the problem being this is an extreme mu play and hoping that you get the right wg for it as without both dark moves it can’t beat giratina, it’s main target or without shuriken, groudon the other big fish u want dead.
2: You have trouble hitting wonder guard weak to your stabs
Looking at the vr there are many weak to dark but they mostly have their anti Gyarados-Mega tech. Let’s start with deo a. Deo a is mostly uses as a substitute baton pass user, the anti Gyarados-Mega tech is obvious, baton pass means that pursuit cannot trap it and it’s low speed means it cannot stop the substitute baton pass. MMY is an offensive wg runs a lot of coverage one of the best being secret sword or freeze dry that will ohko Gyarados-Mega after a shell smash, yes mega gyar can sucker punch it but this requires specific coverage, not always available as well as letting mmy switching out. Cresselia is pretty obvious it’s pretty much only used to outspeed and baton pass in front of Gyarados-Mega face. Mega gengar is the probably the best gyar target but it has its own problems as mega gengar is faster allowing baton pass if it has it, however it can kill it a lot of the time. Some say forcing a switch is valuable enough since u gain momentum but there is a problem with that being the fact that most switch out with baton pass in most situations the wg gets momentum.
3: Giratina
Giratina is THE TARGET for Gyarados-Mega but even this is inconsistent, pursuit only does about 45% and 90% switching out so it can’t allows a lot of bullshit with curse recovery allowing Tina to often live and sometimes even force a lot of chip on mega gyar. Equally it has trouble with d-bond Tina allowing a trade, yes this is a good trade but not by much. Spore and will o Tina are major problems but I will talk about those in a later part. Sub pass Tina is self explanatory to why it wouldn’t work.
4: Mold breaker
Gyarados-Mega is somewhat considered a revenge killer to mold breaker pokemon, like many things in Gyarados-Mega this is mu based as really it can only revenge kill groudon or mega diance mold sets and sometimes mega gengar and mega latios if u have sucker punch but that’s only if ur running it since mega gengar and mega latios can ohko you if you don’t, but mega ray, Slaking, Regigigas and Dialga are not killable by Gyarados-Mega
5: Oh yea the other sets
Pheal is mu based again but like it’s ok ig and mold set is so slow I doubt it can get most things done that groudon just does better as well as not losing to diance, but I don’t have much experience with these since nobody uses it.
6: Status
This is the reason why I think Gyarados-Mega is dumb, stupid and ugly it’s extreme weakness to status. Gyarados-Mega usually runs Lum or googles, Lum being the better as googles are mu based. A mega gyar with no Lum has so many problems 1: it can’t trap spore/willo/dvoid tina as it can be status and can’t trap anymore. 2:Even worse mold mu since 99% of mold pokemon run sleep. Mega gyar slow speed and weak/gimmicky prio moves mean that it relies on Lum without it, it does horribly and I find that most of gyar targets run status.
Anyways mega gyar is good despite everything I just think he isn’t that good, like you rank him alongside ray, groudon, and mmx (also chansey ig but whatever). Really the entire point of all of this rant is to not make Gyarados-Mega A+ because it’s not A+ it’s like A or A- but probably A
-Sincerely Eyeos
1: It can’t run almost any wonder guard
Gyarados-Mega as an offensive huge power mon cannot hit most wg This is usually not much of a problem for other huge power pokemon and those like mmx, regigigas, slaking and many more have extreme variation in sets meaning that even a wg that you cannot hit is still offensively pressured, the surprise factor that these hold is an extreme strength. Gyarados-Mega is most cases not allowed such freedom. Most Gyarados-Mega use a set of -generic dark stab -water shuriken -pursuit -filler, really only leaving 1 move slot to surprise factor. I know many may say something along the lines of “well what about getting rid of one of the 3 moves from before that’s good surprise factor” the problem being this is an extreme mu play and hoping that you get the right wg for it as without both dark moves it can’t beat giratina, it’s main target or without shuriken, groudon the other big fish u want dead.
2: You have trouble hitting wonder guard weak to your stabs
Looking at the vr there are many weak to dark but they mostly have their anti Gyarados-Mega tech. Let’s start with deo a. Deo a is mostly uses as a substitute baton pass user, the anti Gyarados-Mega tech is obvious, baton pass means that pursuit cannot trap it and it’s low speed means it cannot stop the substitute baton pass. MMY is an offensive wg runs a lot of coverage one of the best being secret sword or freeze dry that will ohko Gyarados-Mega after a shell smash, yes mega gyar can sucker punch it but this requires specific coverage, not always available as well as letting mmy switching out. Cresselia is pretty obvious it’s pretty much only used to outspeed and baton pass in front of Gyarados-Mega face. Mega gengar is the probably the best gyar target but it has its own problems as mega gengar is faster allowing baton pass if it has it, however it can kill it a lot of the time. Some say forcing a switch is valuable enough since u gain momentum but there is a problem with that being the fact that most switch out with baton pass in most situations the wg gets momentum.
3: Giratina
Giratina is THE TARGET for Gyarados-Mega but even this is inconsistent, pursuit only does about 45% and 90% switching out so it can’t allows a lot of bullshit with curse recovery allowing Tina to often live and sometimes even force a lot of chip on mega gyar. Equally it has trouble with d-bond Tina allowing a trade, yes this is a good trade but not by much. Spore and will o Tina are major problems but I will talk about those in a later part. Sub pass Tina is self explanatory to why it wouldn’t work.
4: Mold breaker
Gyarados-Mega is somewhat considered a revenge killer to mold breaker pokemon, like many things in Gyarados-Mega this is mu based as really it can only revenge kill groudon or mega diance mold sets and sometimes mega gengar and mega latios if u have sucker punch but that’s only if ur running it since mega gengar and mega latios can ohko you if you don’t, but mega ray, Slaking, Regigigas and Dialga are not killable by Gyarados-Mega
5: Oh yea the other sets
Pheal is mu based again but like it’s ok ig and mold set is so slow I doubt it can get most things done that groudon just does better as well as not losing to diance, but I don’t have much experience with these since nobody uses it.
6: Status
This is the reason why I think Gyarados-Mega is dumb, stupid and ugly it’s extreme weakness to status. Gyarados-Mega usually runs Lum or googles, Lum being the better as googles are mu based. A mega gyar with no Lum has so many problems 1: it can’t trap spore/willo/dvoid tina as it can be status and can’t trap anymore. 2:Even worse mold mu since 99% of mold pokemon run sleep. Mega gyar slow speed and weak/gimmicky prio moves mean that it relies on Lum without it, it does horribly and I find that most of gyar targets run status.
Anyways mega gyar is good despite everything I just think he isn’t that good, like you rank him alongside ray, groudon, and mmx (also chansey ig but whatever). Really the entire point of all of this rant is to not make Gyarados-Mega A+ because it’s not A+ it’s like A or A- but probably A
-Sincerely Eyeos
SLEEP TALK ISN'T IN LGPE WHAT THE FUCK
HERE'S THE CORRECT TOUR CODE
I've been trying stall in the few games I've played as of recent, and I've got to say it's a genuinely (but perhaps only temporarily) good archetype. Sleep Talk existing allows you to proactively counter setup sweepers even while asleep, and the LGPE moves' broken secondary effects mean more often than not you're getting good value out of your turn even when resorting to using Sleep Talk. For example, you can run Sizzly Slide/Freezy Frost/Sleep Talk/Recover on x 'mon and it'll have a 2/3 chance to deter a physical foe (Sappy Seed over 50% recovery would also make that 100%, through that sounds unreliable in the long term and I haven't tried forgoing reliable recovery). Crucially, LGPE moves ignore Taunt and can break Substitutes, two ways a sweeper could theoretically get around a would-be check.
The below team's worked for me over the five (5) games I've tried it in.
Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7letsgoou-2101426363 - Old version but sample walled without much trouble. Notice how Muk stays in Turn 13, dealing 84% to MMX with Foul Play.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7letsgoou-2108020279?p2 - Sizzly Slide burn chip used to outlast Exeggutor, Melmetal walls Sappy Seed Mega Venusaur.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7letsgoou-2108022642?p2 - Again, sample walled without too much trouble, though I realized Foul Play isn't good counterplay for Alakazam since its attack is so damn low.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7letsgoou-2108786518?p2 - Sample walled without too much trouble. Foul Play dealt 89% to Shell Smash-boosted MMX turn 6.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7letsgoou-2108788348 - Sappy Seed Muk initially successfully checks Alakazam. Slowbro essentially trades with one Lovely Kiss MMX turns 9~12. Venusaur then beats Lovely Kiss Crunch MMX in a 1v1. Stray MMX into MMY sweeper "walled" with Muk (Ransei accidentally forgot a 4th move, though at least 1 team member would've walled a mono-attacker set at this point anyway). Melmetal beats opposing sweeper Venusaur 1v1, then Muk beats Alakazam 1v1 to win.
Potential weaknesses:
- Substitute + Quiver Dance sweepers: Foul Play isn't the setup deterrent it is against Shell Smash foes, and it's harder to break Substitutes, especially if they aren't weak to Fire/Ice/Grass/Psychic/Dark. Has trouble with opposing hyper offense and can only realistically fit one attack though.
- OHKO moves: Either you run Mega Gengar or Alolan Marowak or leave yourself vulnerable to Horn Drill guys. At least the latter has somewhat okay physical bulk and can make use of STAB Sizzly Slide. Fissure immunities are a lot more varied, but running something like Zapdos or Mega Charizard Y doesn't sound ideal, especially with unremovable Stealth Rock. Fortunately running OHKO comes with the caveat of being weak to opposing hyper offense.
- Stealth Rock + doubles: You don't want your mons to get chipped beyond maybe ~60% HP or less since at that point you stop reliably checking what you want to come in on. Fortunately, Stealth Rock's hard to set against opposing hyper offense if using it on a fast lead yourself (see a pattern here?)
- Lovely Kiss spam: Forces the stall player to guess if their opponent uses and hits Lovely Kiss (making Sleep Talk the optimal play) or something else (meaning you just gave a free turn to your opponent if you did use Sleep Talk). Makes the Sleep Talk vs. setup deterrence move interaction close to a 50/50, as opposed to a weighted coinflip in favor of the stall player if they have a healthy Mega Venusaur. Applies more to MMX and Mega Venusaur because other sweepers (Mega Alakazam, Mega Mewtwo Y, and potentially Mega Aerodactyl?) already force Mega Venusaur out.
Lastly, I'd like to nom some Pokemon to rise/drop/get added on the VR:
- Melmetal and Alolan Muk higher, probably to A/B. I don't know where they belong in the long-term but it's not with stuff that has exactly 0 reason to be used like Alolan Sandslash (Sheer Cold doesn't exist). Alolan Exeggutor could probably rise a bit too.
- Mega Slowbro from UR to A/B and Chansey from UR to B. Mega Slowbro actually checks pretty much all MMX variants that Mega Venusaur doesn't and is hard to replace on bulkier teams without something almost distinctly worse like Alolan Marowak. Chansey's selling point is higher special bulk than Alolan Muk, though I think Muk is pretty much better due to STAB Foul Play/healing more from Sappy Seed unless things get really out of hand.
- Alolan Sandslash to UR, does nothing over Melmetal or a different offensive Pokemon that better fits Sandslash's desired role.
- Alolan Marowak from UR to somewhere in the lower ranks? Sounds good enough to justify running on select stall teams, hardwalling Fighting STAB + Megahorn MMX variants and boasting STAB Sizzly Slide, but I also haven't tried it yet so take this with a grain of salt.
Overall, Shell Smash spam HO isn't the only workable team in LGPE Pure Hackmons, and the metagame still has significant development to be had.
HERE'S THE CORRECT TOUR CODE
/tour new gen7letsgoou, elim
/tour setautostart 7
/tour setautodq 3
/tour rules !!Adjust Level = 100,Allow AVs,!Species Clause,!Nickname Clause,!OHKO Clause,!Evasion Moves Clause,!Sleep Clause Mod,+Uber,!Obtainable,-All Moves,+Absorb,+Acid,+Acid Armor,+Agility,+Air Slash,+Amnesia,+Aqua Jet,+Aurora Beam,+Baddy Bad,+Barrage,+Barrier,+Bide,+Bind,+Bite,+Blizzard,+Body Slam,+Bone Club,+Bonemerang,+Bouncy Bubble,+Brick Break,+Bubble,+Bubble Beam,+Bug Buzz,+Bulk Up,+Buzzy Buzz,+Calm Mind,+Clamp,+Clear Smog,+Confuse Ray,+Confusion,+Constrict,+Conversion,+Counter,+Crabhammer,+Crunch,+Cut,+Dark Pulse,+Dazzling Gleam,+Defense Curl,+Dig,+Disable,+Dizzy Punch,+Double Iron Bash,+Double Kick,+Double Slap,+Double Team,+Double-Edge,+Dragon Pulse,+Dragon Rage,+Dragon Tail,+Dream Eater,+Drill Peck,+Drill Run,+Earthquake,+Egg Bomb,+Ember,+Encore,+Explosion,+Facade,+Fake Out,+Feint,+Fire Blast,+Fire Punch,+Fire Spin,+Fissure,+Flamethrower,+Flare Blitz,+Flash,+Flash Cannon,+Floaty Fall,+Fly,+Focus Energy,+Foul Play,+Freezy Frost,+Fury Attack,+Fury Swipes,+Glare,+Glitzy Glow,+Growl,+Growth,+Guillotine,+Gust,+Harden,+Haze,+Headbutt,+Heat Wave,+Helping Hand,+High Jump Kick,+Horn Attack,+Horn Drill,+Hydro Pump,+Hyper Beam,+Hyper Fang,+Hypnosis,+Ice Beam,+Ice Punch,+Ice Shard,+Iron Tail,+Jump Kick,+Karate Chop,+Kinesis,+Leech Life,+Leech Seed,+Leer,+Lick,+Light Screen,+Lovely Kiss,+Low Kick,+Meditate,+Mega Drain,+Mega Kick,+Mega Punch,+Megahorn,+move:Metronome,+Mimic,+Minimize,+Mirror Coat,+Mirror Move,+Mist,+Moonblast,+Nasty Plot,+Night Shade,+Outrage,+Pay Day,+Peck,+Petal Dance,+Pin Missile,+Play Rough,+Poison Gas,+Poison Jab,+Poison Powder,+Poison Sting,+Pound,+Power Whip,+Protect,+Psybeam,+Psychic,+Psywave,+Quick Attack,+Quiver Dance,+Rage,+Razor Leaf,+Razor Wind,+Recover,+Reflect,+Rest,+Roar,+Rock Slide,+Rock Throw,+Roost,+Sand Attack,+Sappy Seed,+Scald,+Scratch,+Screech,+Seismic Toss,+Self-Destruct,+Shadow Ball,+Sharpen,+Shell Smash,+Sing,+Sizzly Slide,+Skull Bash,+Sky Attack,+Slam,+Slash,+Sleep Powder,+Sludge,+Sludge Bomb,+Smog,+Smokescreen,+Soft-Boiled,+Solar Beam,+Sonic Boom,+Sparkly Swirl,+Spike Cannon,+Splash,+Splishy Splash,+Spore,+Stealth Rock,+Stomp,+Strength,+String Shot,+Stun Spore,+Submission,+Substitute,+Sucker Punch,+Super Fang,+Superpower,+Supersonic,+Surf,+Swift,+Swords Dance,+Tackle,+Tail Whip,+Take Down,+Taunt,+Teleport,+Thrash,+Thunder,+Thunder Punch,+Thunder Shock,+Thunder Wave,+Thunderbolt,+Toxic,+Transform,+Tri Attack,+Twineedle,+U-turn,+Vice Grip,+Vine Whip,+Water Gun,+Waterfall,+Whirlwind,+Will-O-Wisp,+Wing Attack,+Withdraw,+Wrap,+X-Scissor,+Yawn,+Zippy Zap
/tour name [Gen 7 Let's Go] Pure Hackmons
/tour setautostart 7
/tour setautodq 3
/tour rules !!Adjust Level = 100,Allow AVs,!Species Clause,!Nickname Clause,!OHKO Clause,!Evasion Moves Clause,!Sleep Clause Mod,+Uber,!Obtainable,-All Moves,+Absorb,+Acid,+Acid Armor,+Agility,+Air Slash,+Amnesia,+Aqua Jet,+Aurora Beam,+Baddy Bad,+Barrage,+Barrier,+Bide,+Bind,+Bite,+Blizzard,+Body Slam,+Bone Club,+Bonemerang,+Bouncy Bubble,+Brick Break,+Bubble,+Bubble Beam,+Bug Buzz,+Bulk Up,+Buzzy Buzz,+Calm Mind,+Clamp,+Clear Smog,+Confuse Ray,+Confusion,+Constrict,+Conversion,+Counter,+Crabhammer,+Crunch,+Cut,+Dark Pulse,+Dazzling Gleam,+Defense Curl,+Dig,+Disable,+Dizzy Punch,+Double Iron Bash,+Double Kick,+Double Slap,+Double Team,+Double-Edge,+Dragon Pulse,+Dragon Rage,+Dragon Tail,+Dream Eater,+Drill Peck,+Drill Run,+Earthquake,+Egg Bomb,+Ember,+Encore,+Explosion,+Facade,+Fake Out,+Feint,+Fire Blast,+Fire Punch,+Fire Spin,+Fissure,+Flamethrower,+Flare Blitz,+Flash,+Flash Cannon,+Floaty Fall,+Fly,+Focus Energy,+Foul Play,+Freezy Frost,+Fury Attack,+Fury Swipes,+Glare,+Glitzy Glow,+Growl,+Growth,+Guillotine,+Gust,+Harden,+Haze,+Headbutt,+Heat Wave,+Helping Hand,+High Jump Kick,+Horn Attack,+Horn Drill,+Hydro Pump,+Hyper Beam,+Hyper Fang,+Hypnosis,+Ice Beam,+Ice Punch,+Ice Shard,+Iron Tail,+Jump Kick,+Karate Chop,+Kinesis,+Leech Life,+Leech Seed,+Leer,+Lick,+Light Screen,+Lovely Kiss,+Low Kick,+Meditate,+Mega Drain,+Mega Kick,+Mega Punch,+Megahorn,+move:Metronome,+Mimic,+Minimize,+Mirror Coat,+Mirror Move,+Mist,+Moonblast,+Nasty Plot,+Night Shade,+Outrage,+Pay Day,+Peck,+Petal Dance,+Pin Missile,+Play Rough,+Poison Gas,+Poison Jab,+Poison Powder,+Poison Sting,+Pound,+Power Whip,+Protect,+Psybeam,+Psychic,+Psywave,+Quick Attack,+Quiver Dance,+Rage,+Razor Leaf,+Razor Wind,+Recover,+Reflect,+Rest,+Roar,+Rock Slide,+Rock Throw,+Roost,+Sand Attack,+Sappy Seed,+Scald,+Scratch,+Screech,+Seismic Toss,+Self-Destruct,+Shadow Ball,+Sharpen,+Shell Smash,+Sing,+Sizzly Slide,+Skull Bash,+Sky Attack,+Slam,+Slash,+Sleep Powder,+Sludge,+Sludge Bomb,+Smog,+Smokescreen,+Soft-Boiled,+Solar Beam,+Sonic Boom,+Sparkly Swirl,+Spike Cannon,+Splash,+Splishy Splash,+Spore,+Stealth Rock,+Stomp,+Strength,+String Shot,+Stun Spore,+Submission,+Substitute,+Sucker Punch,+Super Fang,+Superpower,+Supersonic,+Surf,+Swift,+Swords Dance,+Tackle,+Tail Whip,+Take Down,+Taunt,+Teleport,+Thrash,+Thunder,+Thunder Punch,+Thunder Shock,+Thunder Wave,+Thunderbolt,+Toxic,+Transform,+Tri Attack,+Twineedle,+U-turn,+Vice Grip,+Vine Whip,+Water Gun,+Waterfall,+Whirlwind,+Will-O-Wisp,+Wing Attack,+Withdraw,+Wrap,+X-Scissor,+Yawn,+Zippy Zap
/tour name [Gen 7 Let's Go] Pure Hackmons
Introducing the latest installment to old gens as of this post in Hackmons form...
Let's Go Pure Hackmons
Nobody has played this metagame for over two and a half years but I've played it enough back when it had an LCotM ladder in December 2018. It's a really simple metagame and I remember most of what it's like. Although the ladder lasted four days before becoming incredibly dead, the viability levels of Pokemon in this metagame were incredibly blatant.
Usage stats from December 2018 ladder: https://www.smogon.com/stats/2018-12/gen7letsgohackmons-1760.txt
Sample Team:
Let's Go Hyper Offense by Ransei
Team Description: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/om-mashup-megathread.3635904/page-10#post-7974512
Currently when teambuilding, make sure to hit the Import/Export box and edit each Pokemon's ability specifically to No Ability.
- There are only 153 total species of Pokemon.
- There are no items or abilities. Grass-types are the only thing blocking Spore.
- Players can maximize all of their candies on a Pokemon. Everything has Giratina-level bulk.
- Eevee moves are highly absurd. The most prominent ones are Baddy Bad, Glitzy Glow, Sparkly Swirl, and Sappy Seed.
- Baddy Bad is a 90 BP 100% accuracy Dark-type attack that summons Reflect. Glitzy Glow is a 90 BP 100% accuracy Psychic-attack that summons Light Screen. Both are special attacks. Again, everything has Giratina-level bulk.
- Grass-types are the only thing blocking Sappy Seed. This is an unavoidable Leech Seed attack move with 90 BP and 100% accuracy.
- Buzzy Buzz and Sizzly Slide are Partner Eevee moves occasionally used for other status. Buzzy Buzz is a 90 BP and 100% accuracy move with a 100% paralysis chance. Sizzly Slide is a 90 BP and 100% accuracy move with a 100% burn chance.
- Sparkly Swirl is incredibly useful. It is an unavoidable damage move that cures the whole team's status.
- Shell Smash is everywhere. This is not because it's broken here. It's because Pokemon cannot do any decent damage to their opponents otherwise.
Here are viability rankings to reflect the state of this metagame. I wanted to make this preliminary but then I looked through the entire game roster and concluded this is probably all of the Pokemon who are viable in this metagame:
Viability Rankings
S Rank
Venusaur-Mega
A Rank
Aerodactyl-Mega
Alakazam-Mega
B Rank
Exeggutor
Mewtwo-Mega-X
Mewtwo-Mega-Y
C Rank
Charizard-Mega-X
Exeggutor-Alola
Zapdos
D Rank
Gyarados-Mega
Melmetal
Muk-Alola
Sandslash-Alola
/tour new gen7letsgoou, elim
/tour setautostart 7
/tour setautodq 3
/tour ruleset !!Adjust Level = 100, --Nonexistent, !Obtainable Moves, !Species Clause, !Nickname Clause, !OHKO Clause, !Evasion Moves Clause, !Sleep Clause Mod, +Uber, Allow AVs, !Obtainable Formes
/tour name [Gen 7 Let's Go] Pure Hackmons
Now available in Old Shark.
I've been trying stall in the few games I've played as of recent, and I've got to say it's a genuinely (but perhaps only temporarily) good archetype. Sleep Talk existing allows you to proactively counter setup sweepers even while asleep, and the LGPE moves' broken secondary effects mean more often than not you're getting good value out of your turn even when resorting to using Sleep Talk. For example, you can run Sizzly Slide/Freezy Frost/Sleep Talk/Recover on x 'mon and it'll have a 2/3 chance to deter a physical foe (Sappy Seed over 50% recovery would also make that 100%, through that sounds unreliable in the long term and I haven't tried forgoing reliable recovery). Crucially, LGPE moves ignore Taunt and can break Substitutes, two ways a sweeper could theoretically get around a would-be check.
The below team's worked for me over the five (5) games I've tried it in.
Mega Venusaur primarily comes in on opposing Mega Venusaur/MMX without supereffective coverage. Sizzly Slide and Freezy Frost are good setup sweeper counterplay, burning and Hazing the foe respectively, and the former's burn also serves as consistent chip in a metagame where non-Mega Stone items don't exist offensive Pokemon seldom run recovery. Sleep Talk allows Venusaur to proactively handle foes even while asleep; Lovely Kiss is a common move choice over Spore since sleep is broken and Mega Venusaur is perhaps the best Pokemon in the game. Recover for recovery.
Melmetal's your primary switchin to Mega Aerodactyl, a soft check to mono-Glitzy Glow attackers if Alolan Muk goes down, and a secondary switchin to Mega Venusaur. Double Iron Bash for somewhat strong STAB (more like chip when everything is insanely bulky), Sizzly Slide to burn the mostly physical threats Melmetal comes in on, Sleep Talk to not become setup fodder for Spore/Lovely Kiss users (that is, every Pokemon in the game), and Recover for recovery.
Alolan Muk's your primary switchin to Mega Alakazam/Mega Mewtwo Y and a secondary switchin to Mega Venusaur. STAB Foul Play actually 2HKOes most Shell Smash-boosted sweepers, making it useful for either 1v1ing foes or staying in on a predicted Shell Smash then switching to a check. I don't know if I've ever clicked Sappy Seed but it theoretically helps Muk deal with whatever it switches in on, since Leech Seed against a 'mon with no recovery sounds pretty useful. Also nice to call with Sleep Talk I guess. You can replace it with Freezy Frost if you want. Sleep Talk for everything and recovery to check what Muk needs to.
Alolan Exeggutor isn't a hard check to anything specifically, but it's there if a bulkier switchin is asleep and you don't want to rely on Sleep Talk odds. In practice that means you come in on Kanto Exeggutor and some weakened unboosted mons, pretty much. Sizzly Slide burns stuff and Foul Play damages Shell Smash-boosted foes. I don't really like this combination as is though, since Exeggutor gets 2HKOed by a lot of neutral foes at +2, lessening the value of the latter move. Stealth Rock limits opposing switches, which is impactful when it's hard to directly threaten foes with conventional attacks. It's also unremovable in LGPE. Recover for recovery.
Mega Slowbro's a good switchin for unscouted Mega Mewtwo X and Mega Charizard X, especially if the former's burned. Freezy Frost and Foul Play deter setup, though they target the same aspect of sweepers in neutralizing them proactively post-Shell Smash. Therefore, you want to burn the foe with a Sizzly Slide mon first if you can help it. Sleep Talk for everything. Recover for recovery.
Chansey complements Alolan Muk as a switch-in to Mega Alakazam and Mega Mewtwo Y, though it doesn't like switching into Sappy Seed foes due to the comparatively high opposing HP gain. Despite being a Chansey you're still prone to getting broken through by special foes, so Glitzy Glow for the Light Screen effect sounded useful. Freezy Frost to remove boosts, Sleep Talk for sleep, and Recover for recovery.
Mega Venusaur is particularly useful due to its good bulk and Spore/Leech Seed immunity, so try to safely scout opposing movesets when using it as a check (for example, by using Recover when healthy so you're not in a terrible spot if a +2 Glitzy Glow from MMX deals 90%). Don't be afraid to predict opposing Spore or Lovely Kiss uses with Sleep Talk. Playing passively doesn't get you far due to sleep turns allowing the opponent to move more on average; don't be afraid to make doubles when necessary and/or relatively safe. Feel free to predict opposing Shell Smash uses with Foul Play or Freezy Frost, since that interaction is a net gain for you with the opposing mon getting chipped when running recovery on sweepers is basically impossible. Basically, don't throw your Pokemon away but make the most of the turns you got.
Melmetal's your primary switchin to Mega Aerodactyl, a soft check to mono-Glitzy Glow attackers if Alolan Muk goes down, and a secondary switchin to Mega Venusaur. Double Iron Bash for somewhat strong STAB (more like chip when everything is insanely bulky), Sizzly Slide to burn the mostly physical threats Melmetal comes in on, Sleep Talk to not become setup fodder for Spore/Lovely Kiss users (that is, every Pokemon in the game), and Recover for recovery.
Alolan Muk's your primary switchin to Mega Alakazam/Mega Mewtwo Y and a secondary switchin to Mega Venusaur. STAB Foul Play actually 2HKOes most Shell Smash-boosted sweepers, making it useful for either 1v1ing foes or staying in on a predicted Shell Smash then switching to a check. I don't know if I've ever clicked Sappy Seed but it theoretically helps Muk deal with whatever it switches in on, since Leech Seed against a 'mon with no recovery sounds pretty useful. Also nice to call with Sleep Talk I guess. You can replace it with Freezy Frost if you want. Sleep Talk for everything and recovery to check what Muk needs to.
Alolan Exeggutor isn't a hard check to anything specifically, but it's there if a bulkier switchin is asleep and you don't want to rely on Sleep Talk odds. In practice that means you come in on Kanto Exeggutor and some weakened unboosted mons, pretty much. Sizzly Slide burns stuff and Foul Play damages Shell Smash-boosted foes. I don't really like this combination as is though, since Exeggutor gets 2HKOed by a lot of neutral foes at +2, lessening the value of the latter move. Stealth Rock limits opposing switches, which is impactful when it's hard to directly threaten foes with conventional attacks. It's also unremovable in LGPE. Recover for recovery.
Mega Slowbro's a good switchin for unscouted Mega Mewtwo X and Mega Charizard X, especially if the former's burned. Freezy Frost and Foul Play deter setup, though they target the same aspect of sweepers in neutralizing them proactively post-Shell Smash. Therefore, you want to burn the foe with a Sizzly Slide mon first if you can help it. Sleep Talk for everything. Recover for recovery.
Chansey complements Alolan Muk as a switch-in to Mega Alakazam and Mega Mewtwo Y, though it doesn't like switching into Sappy Seed foes due to the comparatively high opposing HP gain. Despite being a Chansey you're still prone to getting broken through by special foes, so Glitzy Glow for the Light Screen effect sounded useful. Freezy Frost to remove boosts, Sleep Talk for sleep, and Recover for recovery.
Mega Venusaur is particularly useful due to its good bulk and Spore/Leech Seed immunity, so try to safely scout opposing movesets when using it as a check (for example, by using Recover when healthy so you're not in a terrible spot if a +2 Glitzy Glow from MMX deals 90%). Don't be afraid to predict opposing Spore or Lovely Kiss uses with Sleep Talk. Playing passively doesn't get you far due to sleep turns allowing the opponent to move more on average; don't be afraid to make doubles when necessary and/or relatively safe. Feel free to predict opposing Shell Smash uses with Foul Play or Freezy Frost, since that interaction is a net gain for you with the opposing mon getting chipped when running recovery on sweepers is basically impossible. Basically, don't throw your Pokemon away but make the most of the turns you got.
Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7letsgoou-2101426363 - Old version but sample walled without much trouble. Notice how Muk stays in Turn 13, dealing 84% to MMX with Foul Play.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7letsgoou-2108020279?p2 - Sizzly Slide burn chip used to outlast Exeggutor, Melmetal walls Sappy Seed Mega Venusaur.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7letsgoou-2108022642?p2 - Again, sample walled without too much trouble, though I realized Foul Play isn't good counterplay for Alakazam since its attack is so damn low.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7letsgoou-2108786518?p2 - Sample walled without too much trouble. Foul Play dealt 89% to Shell Smash-boosted MMX turn 6.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7letsgoou-2108788348 - Sappy Seed Muk initially successfully checks Alakazam. Slowbro essentially trades with one Lovely Kiss MMX turns 9~12. Venusaur then beats Lovely Kiss Crunch MMX in a 1v1. Stray MMX into MMY sweeper "walled" with Muk (Ransei accidentally forgot a 4th move, though at least 1 team member would've walled a mono-attacker set at this point anyway). Melmetal beats opposing sweeper Venusaur 1v1, then Muk beats Alakazam 1v1 to win.
Potential weaknesses:
- Substitute + Quiver Dance sweepers: Foul Play isn't the setup deterrent it is against Shell Smash foes, and it's harder to break Substitutes, especially if they aren't weak to Fire/Ice/Grass/Psychic/Dark. Has trouble with opposing hyper offense and can only realistically fit one attack though.
- OHKO moves: Either you run Mega Gengar or Alolan Marowak or leave yourself vulnerable to Horn Drill guys. At least the latter has somewhat okay physical bulk and can make use of STAB Sizzly Slide. Fissure immunities are a lot more varied, but running something like Zapdos or Mega Charizard Y doesn't sound ideal, especially with unremovable Stealth Rock. Fortunately running OHKO comes with the caveat of being weak to opposing hyper offense.
- Stealth Rock + doubles: You don't want your mons to get chipped beyond maybe ~60% HP or less since at that point you stop reliably checking what you want to come in on. Fortunately, Stealth Rock's hard to set against opposing hyper offense if using it on a fast lead yourself (see a pattern here?)
- Lovely Kiss spam: Forces the stall player to guess if their opponent uses and hits Lovely Kiss (making Sleep Talk the optimal play) or something else (meaning you just gave a free turn to your opponent if you did use Sleep Talk). Makes the Sleep Talk vs. setup deterrence move interaction close to a 50/50, as opposed to a weighted coinflip in favor of the stall player if they have a healthy Mega Venusaur. Applies more to MMX and Mega Venusaur because other sweepers (Mega Alakazam, Mega Mewtwo Y, and potentially Mega Aerodactyl?) already force Mega Venusaur out.
- Melmetal and Alolan Muk higher, probably to A/B. I don't know where they belong in the long-term but it's not with stuff that has exactly 0 reason to be used like Alolan Sandslash (Sheer Cold doesn't exist). Alolan Exeggutor could probably rise a bit too.
- Mega Slowbro from UR to A/B and Chansey from UR to B. Mega Slowbro actually checks pretty much all MMX variants that Mega Venusaur doesn't and is hard to replace on bulkier teams without something almost distinctly worse like Alolan Marowak. Chansey's selling point is higher special bulk than Alolan Muk, though I think Muk is pretty much better due to STAB Foul Play/healing more from Sappy Seed unless things get really out of hand.
- Alolan Sandslash to UR, does nothing over Melmetal or a different offensive Pokemon that better fits Sandslash's desired role.
- Alolan Marowak from UR to somewhere in the lower ranks? Sounds good enough to justify running on select stall teams, hardwalling Fighting STAB + Megahorn MMX variants and boasting STAB Sizzly Slide, but I also haven't tried it yet so take this with a grain of salt.
Overall, Shell Smash spam HO isn't the only workable team in LGPE Pure Hackmons, and the metagame still has significant development to be had.
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