NU Suspect Discussion

[Raseri]

The purpose of this thread is to discuss potential suspects and whether or not they're broken in NU. Examples of things that should be talked about in this thread: your experience with said threat (using it and facing it), what beats said threat, your opinion of its effect on the metagame (whether positive or negative), etc.

Jynx and Scolipede have been brought up for discussion lately, so this thread will be primarily for discussing the effect they have on the NU metagame.

When choosing voters for this test, I will handpick 4-5 people that have the following requirements:

• Outstanding Contribution to this thread
• In good standing with the NU community
• Significant NU experience

So if you want to take part in this test, make sure you make excellent posts here. There is 0 ladder component to this suspect test.

Note that I will be moderating this thread very heavily, so any stupid / off topic / troll posts will be infracted.

id post more about this, but I dont have free time, if you have any questions, you can post them here and I'll clarify later.

 

[Cherub Agent]

Basically, I think that Jynx and Scolipede shouldn't be in the tier. I voted Jynx not to be banned last round, but my opinion has changed (and it was already pretty shaky before). I'd like to focus on Scolipede first though.

Scolipede isn't a Pokemon that is going to kill everything in its path, but the support that it provides to a team cannot be ignored. It's pretty obvious why I think it's broken; it's NU's equivalent to Deoxys-S in OU, to Froslass in UU. Both of these have been banned in their respective tiers, mainly because they make it far too easy to set up hazards early game, pretty much guaranteeing two layers because of A) massive Speed and B) Focus Sash. Of course, it's a little bit different from Deoxys-S (who can't be outsped) and Froslass (who blocks her own hazards from being spun). Scolipede however has it's own factors that push it over the edge: not only can it hit opponents with a 180 BP STAB move once it's in Swarm range from the Sash, it has more offensive presence in general, thanks to its great movepool. You can generally assume that Scolipede is setting (Toxic) Spikes, but it can also run nasty Swords Dance and Baton Pass sets. I can go on about all its sets and why they make Scolipede broken, but I honestly think it really boils down to the fact that Scolipede doesn't make NU an enjoyable tier to play. No one likes playing a game where both sides end up littered with hazards, and so making any switches is discouraged, and a Pokemon game without switches is just dull. We ban things to make the metagame more enjoyable, and by banning Scolipede we would certainly be doing so. NU has the potential to be an awesome tier, and Scolipede is ruining that. It's common knowledge that spinners in this tier suck, and when you consider that the best one is Wartortle, you realize that removing Scolipede is the right thing to do.

Jynx's speed, power, and crippling moves in Lovely Kiss and Trick can threaten pretty much anything as soon as it comes in. I don't find that it makes NU as unenjoyable to the extent that Scolipede does, but I think it's overpowered in the more traditional sense in that it beats too many thing one on one. Sure it's weak to all hazards, especially Stealth Rock, but it does fine preventing SR itself, due to being able to ohko golurk, put golem and piloswine to sleep, etc. I've not participated in SPL myself, but I've watched the games, and especially in Grand Slam common consensus among the top players was that this thing also needs to go. It can be custom fit to beat pretty much any playstyle... this isn't so easy to generalize but Scarf does amazingly against Offense, LO + 3 attacks rips huge holes out of bulky offense, and SubNP really takes a dump on stall.

If both of these Pokemon go, NU will be really shaken up, but I ultimately think that the players will have a far, far more enjoyable metagame on their hands. If I were to choose only one though, it'd be Scolipede, as I find the effect that it has to be far more unpleasant than Jynx's. I wish this had been done a bit sooner, preferably after GS, but oh well, better late than never I suppose!

 

[noobcubed]

Well, I know my opinion may not count for much but I think that Scolipede is broken, but Jynx isn't.

The main problem with Scolipede is that you can't scout it. You might even have a dedicated anti-lead to the Focus Sash set (which, invariably, would have to be Scarf Jynx, which has to rely on Lovely Kiss not missing; the other Pokemon that can stop Spikes altogether are Taunt Liepard, which is getting boned heavily by Megahorn, Taunt Electrode, which sucks, because Taunt is the only reason to use Electrode anyway and so can be seen from miles off, and Natu, which is set-up bait and also sucks generally unless you can read your opponent's mind with perfect accuracy). Even if you did, bulky, non-lead Scolipede exists and can come in on any of the other five of your opponent's Pokemon and start spraying your opponent with hazards. Oh, and if you're using Jynx to stop Scolipede, good luck switching it in safely. You may be forced to switch it in just to stop yourself getting Spiked to death, whereupon you get Megahorned and you've lost your only check. In addition, I just hate having to have a grounded Poison-type on every team because otherwise Scolipede can put up two layers of Toxic Spikes in the first two turns and I might as well resign already.

Jynx has a lot of great things going for it, but also has exploitable weaknesses, making it a very double-edged sword of a Pokemon. In my experience the most threatening sets are Choice Scarf and Sub NP (sets like plain old Life Orb are also threatening but are for the most part just inferior versions of the sets mentioned).

Choice Scarf Jynx hits hard and fast, and has the ability to cripple two "counters" (if such a thing as a 100% Jynx counter even existed), with Lovely Kiss + Trick, meaning you are going to have to stuff your team with Jynx checks. However, many Jynx checks (Metang, Skuntank, lots of fast Scarfers like Tauros) are really good Pokemon anyway. For me, although well-prepared for, it's still the best set, partly because of how centralising Jynx's speed tier is, making teams struggle if they run a slower Scarfer (and I guess its the reason why you don't see slow Pokemon carrying Choice Scarf in NU, like Scarf Emboar in RU for example, because players want their Scarfer to be able to revenge Scarf Jynx). Surely, if you play badly around it you will lose, but the said can be said for many other Pokemon in NU, such as Samurott or Braviary, and I don't think many people consider them broken. As for Sub NP Jynx, it's a rarer bird, held back a little by the fact that in the whole metagame only Musharna, Alomomola and Wartortle fail to break its Subs. In my experience, if I just Sleep fodder something and then keep attacking it, I'm generally fine because, with only one attacking move, it needs two or three boosts to shred teams.

Now, onto the exploitable weaknesses: Stealth Rock, priority, Pursuit. Jynx is OHKOed by (poisoned) Zangoose's Quick Attack after Stealth Rock with 100% certainty, which gives a measure of how frail it is on the physical side. Pursuit trappers also give it a headache, with Skuntank in particular proving a problem for Jynx, as it can checkmate Jynx with Sucker Punch and Pursuit and commonly runs Lum Berry to absorb Lovely Kiss. As for SR, Scarf Jynx will typically switch in, sleep something, switch out and and then switch in again to do anything more, by which time it's lost half its health and it will die to any neutral special hit and and any physical attack of any kind.

 

[Fuzznip]

First I'd like to thank Raseri for even setting something like this up despite the tier basically being "done" given the new generation.

My opinion on Jynx hasn't changed since the last time it was suspected, but I've become more pro-ban after playing actual competent and competitive players during Grand Slam and now in SPL, not just mediocre players on the ladder. I'm still basing my argument against its place in NU for the same reasons as I did beforehand. These are:

Hide

1. Lovely Kiss and its unpredictability.

To put it simply, Jynx is just a really difficult threat to respond to. To begin with, you aren't necessarily sure what kid of set it's running, as it has a variety of sets to choose from, such as Focus Sash lead, Nasty Plot + 2 attacks, Sub + Nasty Plot, Lovely Kiss + 3 attacks, and Choice Scarf, all of which are equally threatening. Being against Jynx immediately puts you in a rather crappy position because its unpredictability can screw you over if you fail to make the correct move. Lovely Kiss is the main culprit to this because it essentially "kills" a Pokemon for potentially the entire match given sleep mechanics, while it's then free to either A) smack something hard on the switch, B) kill the sleeping opponent to potentially sleep something else later, or C) set up a free Substitute or Nasty Plot. All three of these options are quite scary if you're the victim. It's also obvious that Jynx is the fastest Pokemon with access to a relatively reliable sleep move that isn't a liability to carry, so you basically always get the upper-hand when you send it out. Finally, the fact that Jynx has all of these different sets means that you essentially need to build a team that has an adequate response to all of them. I mean, Choice Scarf Jynx can beat what its Life Orb counterpart cannot, but Life Orb Jynx can beat what its Choice Scarf counterpart cannot. This amplifies its difficulty as a threat to defeat.

2. Limited effective responses in the tier.

It's no question that Jynx is one of the few Pokemon that really doesn't have a good set of checks and counters. There certainly are a myriad of revenge killers in the tier that can dispose of Jynx, but they need to come in cleanly to prevent Jynx from smashing them in the face with its powerful STABs or sleeping them with Lovely Kiss. Mostly everything that is faster than Jynx will never want to directly switch into it given its stellar offensive presence. Furthermore, most of these revenge killers can only force Jynx out, only to let it come in at a later period. Unless you are running Pursuit Tauros or what have you, it's not as easy to check it as one thinks. Again, it really depends on the set it's running too because most Pokemon that would beat Life Orb Jynx cannot beat Choice Scarf Jynx.

In terms of counters, very, very few exist. I've been using Metang a lot because I'd consider it to be the #1 response to nearly any kind of Jynx; however, you need to be sure that you're not switching it in against a Lovely Kiss (unless you're a RestTalk set, but that's not a good set to be running in the current metagame) or a Trick, otherwise you're at risk of letting Jynx run over you even with a solid response.

3. Completely meta-defining.

I'll say it bluntly: the metagame revolves around Jynx. I mean really, when the metagame reaches a point where players are resorting to the likes of Pursuit Metang, Gyro Ball Wartortle (don't even diss that, it's an effective lure and competitive players do use it), Yache Berry + Magic Coat Golurk, and whatever else to mainly lure out and defeat Jynx, you know Jynx is a bad influence and an unhealthy threat to be free in the meta. It's just that hard to beat and I think it's ridiculous to keep something like this to be used.

Also, just to put this out there, the argument that Jynx is Stealth Rock weak and frail is bullshit in my opinion. Sure that's true, but that honestly does not compensate for the fact that when Jynx is in (and it will come in), you're pretty much guaranteed to lose one or two things. Furthermore, Jynx is actually a strong anti-lead, so it itself can prevent entry hazards from being laid down (have you not seen the Fake Out Jynx sets?) for a good period. Just kill it. Kill it with fire already. pls...

I'm glad that Scolipede is being talked about as well. Honestly, I didn't really consider it as a huge deal back then for some reason, but again, through Grand Slam and SPL, it has become more and more apparent to me that it's probably the #1 reason why NU is in a rather terrible state. My reasons:

Hide

1. Spike stacking in a Rapid Spinless metagame.

This is it, pretty much. NU is by far the worst tier ever when it comes to entry hazards. Scolipede has literally all of the tools it needs to spill out layers of Spikes and/or Toxic Spikes in a really effective manner. Its extremely high Speed, offensive presence, and typing all enable it to guarantee two layers of entry hazards, if not more. In a metagame where Rapid Spin users are hard to come by, which is why Wartortle has been a staple recently for some teams, you really can't do much to prevent many hazards from going up without using anti-lead mons such as Rock Blast Golem, Choice Scarf/Fake Out Jynx, Magic Coat Golurk, and whatever else. Also, there are very effective spinblockers anyway, such as Misdreavus and Drifblim, so oftentimes, carrying a Rapid Spin Pokemon will do you no good. On top of that, Wartortle and Torkoal (the best spinners I guess) are basically liabilities to carry because they are so easy to take advantage of and so easy to actually prevent them from spinning hazards through offensive pressure.

2. Unpredictable and strong.

Scolipede is also a really unpredictable Pokemon. Its movepool is flooded with a variety of cool moves to use and its high Speed and Attack really let it shine as an offensive Pokemon. Not only can it spill out some entry hazards, it can easily run Swords Dance in the same set to obliterate many things in its path. Swarm + Megahorn is all Scolipede needs to run through teams, assuming they don't pack something like Probopass or Bastiodon, and I guess Charizard to an extent (it's OHKOed with SR). It can also use Baton Pass to pass on its Swords Dance boost if needed, Rock Slide to take out Charizard switch-ins, Aqua Tail for Golem and other Grounds and Fires, Pursuit for Ghosts (and Jynx), Toxic for bulky behemoths such as Alomomola, and many more. Its item choices are expansive too, ranging from the defensive Black Sludge to the offensive Life Orb, or the handy Focus Sash or threatening Salac Berry on a SubSD set.

Scolipede is definitely another unhealthy threat and the main reason, if not the reason, why NU is in a bad state with this stupid Spike stacking offense that shits up the metagame.

Thanks for reading my comments.

 

[tennisace]

I don't think either of them are too bad, but I'm questioning why this wasn't done well before SPL started? The NU finals finished on November 11th (when Bloo beat Aerialace TM40), and SPL didn't start until December 23rd. I think this is entirely relevant because this SPL most likely marks the last time where BW NU is included in an official tournament. Why change the metagame drastically in the middle of it?

 

[ium]

the timing of this thread is not that great but oh well!!!

jynx should not be around. it's absurdly fast to where a lot of old prominent threats have fallen out of favor, and while i'm aware that this is a natural occurence whenever anything is introduced into or removed from the tier, the extent to which jynx does this is unhealthy. 95 base speed is shared by few and outshined by a small amount as well and you are undoubtly going to have to build with slower pokemon in mind if you want to have something remotely successful in nu. because of this, jynx receives so many ample opportunities to cripple or KO something which means that it's in an highly advantageous position from the get-go once you have it in on something slow. i wouldn't say it's quite unpredictable, but it has everything it needs in its arsenal to hamper any of its would-be-counters and to potentially take out multiple pokemon. it also forces coinflip scenarios when you have to decide between whether the jynx user wants to use lovely kiss or other move like an attack or substitute

i think the way to look at it is the fact that jynx's best answers are so limited with only like two or three, the best being metang and wartortle, having practical but really small outside uses. yet despite this, most people find that they need two answers or a bunch of checks to ensure that jynx doesn't get away with too much. the need for several checks from a limited pool of pokemon is pushing it honestly, especially when there's no guarantees depending on the set being used. you're also likely sacrificing things to bring in something else that may check jynx, but jynx can switch out of unless it's one of the two usable pursuit pokemon that are easily taken advantage of by others

the other solid way to check jynx is through hazards, but there's enough stealth rock deterrents in the tier like sawk, samurott, and misdreavus. add it to the fact that jynx itself can prevent stealth rock pokemon from setting up through putting it to sleep or by some other means and now the jynx user is instantly given more opportunities to come in with it

i agree with the german and catman on jynx so i'm not going further into this unless necessary but i'm sure specific details were pointed out already which i'll read later. i actually have a few more things to point out for jynx later on but i think i should read stuff first O_O

for scolipede, the decision seems borderline for me from an unbiased standpoint. its offensive presence isn't outstanding without swords dance and/or active swarm to where the things it sets up spikes on would be the same as the things that roselia and garbodor would set up on. i'm just bringing this up because the main argument will definitely be its ability to spike in a spike-susceptible metagame, but i do know it has its differences. of course its speed will allow it to get an extra layer up in a pinch against stuff that are above 80 and of course some people may find themselves switching in the wrong answer to a subsd scolipede. i think part of my difficulty in deciding is the fact that jynx is in the tier, but given the fact that we're trying to judge scolipede in the environment it's in now, i would probably be in favor of banning it. but definitely a 100% suspect and i will have more to say about it later on and pick a side i GUESS if fuzznip wants me to post more O_O

 

[Sidfrid]

Gonna pick Scolipede first:

1-) The ability to stack (T-)spikes is not new on scolipede, have been hyped since his introduction in the tier. Going from periods when spike stacking grow and others when offensive scolipede is preferred. I've tried (and fought against) different scolipede sets, of course, the lot of sets he can run and even in-between sets made him very dangerous. The Sword Dance + Baton pass set is the most scarier since scolipede is resting on a high speed tier, so the scolipede user can freely choose to attack or baton pass to a bulky physical pokemon. The lead Scolipede can decide to don't actually lead but wait for a better time to come in and start stacking spikes while your opponent switch to a counter, but which counters?

In the suicede lead period of Scolipede I started running a fully physically defensive Torkoal. The main idea was to scare Scolipede with a Lava Plume and in case he already stacked some spikes spin then off. Here some calcs:

Scolipede megahorn + coverage

+2 252+ Atk Scolipede Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Torkoal: 102-120 (29.6 - 34.8%)
252+ Atk Scolipede Aqua Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Torkoal: 102-122 (29.6 - 35.4%)
252+ Atk Scolipede Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Torkoal: 86-102 (25 - 29.6%)
252+ Atk Scolipede Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Torkoal: 114-136 (33.1 - 39.5%)

Now onto the defensive side: 4 SpA Torkoal Lava Plume vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Scolipede: 204-242 (77.8 - 92.3%)
(don't need to invest in Special Attack since lead scolipede is sashed and non-leads scoli are treatened to take SR damage)

The deductions are obvious, never let Scolipede on torkoal. This actually kill off the "lead scolipede" making the scolipede user try to kill of Torkoal before stacking spikes. But is torkoal use just a niche to stop Scolipede thus making scolipede metagame defining? No

more calcs regarding torkoal vs. other pokes

252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Torkoal: 198-234 (57.5 - 68%)
this is actully a bad example but please bear in mind this other:
252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 261-307 (48.8 - 57.4%)
Don't want to compare torkoal and Alomomola just want to point out Sawk raw power and the fact that Torkoal actually survive a hit

Torkoal is not the only one able to stop scolipede on in tracks. According to December last year usage stats only 35% of Scolipede runs Earthquake (in favor of the coverage gained by Aqua tail) Making Probopass a suitable wall. On probo case is way better since probo can just Volt switch to a correct team mate to fit for the situation. But only 35%, is this enough to gamble on a good physical wall live? Great versatility is a double edge sword, the downside called 4MSS. When you choose scolipede you almost always choose it for Spikes (The banded Scoliped might run it, under the same premise scarf Jynx runs Lovely kiss), then you choose a STAB attack: Megahorn, now time for the coverage:

If you choose the always useful Sword Dance + baton pass set, you got walled by a lot of pokes, mainly the omnipresent Specs Charizard.
If you choose the pivot set with only Baton pass and Aqua tail, you got walled by a Volt turner Probopass that can survive aquai tail (if you hit, 90% acc.)
If you choose to wall charizard and go with baton pass + rock slide, again walled by probo and torkoal.

(According to December stats, the most used Scolipede was Spikes + Megahorn + Aqua tail + Toxic spikes, double spikes + coverage)

2-) But what about T-spikes stacking? Getting you pokes poisoned badly really reduce it lifespam thus their sweep. Add to this that the main cleric used, musharna, is weak to his STAB (not only mushy, but every psychic pokemon whose are used for varied roles on varied teams archetype) making the removal of those toxic spikes a priority. Now we are talking, because of t-spikes scolipede defined the metagame? No. (but he indeed re-introduced t-spikes stacking)

Scolipede dropped from RU in the march 2013 tier shifts, before him, and for a lot of time, Garbodor was the premium t-spikes scatterer. With a huge physicall wall further amplied by his fighting resist he can easily lay both layers of Toxic spikes. the others users was very gimmick with Tentacool and Whirlipede leading the list. (Roselia dropped 3 months before Scolipede and like him can lay Toxic Spikes)

Poison types. As simple as that. Poison types are running rampant in NU, not only because the ability to absorb the spikes left from scolipede, but thier utility and fighting resits (since sawk have always been a "overused" pokemon in NU). Their usage din't spike (pun intended) just because Scolipede was on the tier. In fact was exaclty the inverse. Skunktank, a pokemon that have always been on the top 10, usage dropped since Scolipede introduction. Mentioning Skunktank because a he is also a Jynx lurer with and (to some extend) without lum berry. Others grounded poison types are used for a lot of roles: Specially and Physically defensive roselia (that also learn Aromatherapy, and is neutral to bug-type moves), Vileplume (leech seed user and also aromatherapy), Victreebel (powerful sun sweeper, can kill Scolipede with Sun boosted wheather ball) and the list can go on. So the presence of Scolipede din't influenced the usage of Poison types. The usage of grounded poison types is because their versatility, absorb t-spikes is still very situational. (maybe this line is quite polemical).

3-) So what else have Scolipede, Offensive presence? I must say HUGE offensive presence. As I said already the Sword Dance set is pretty dangerous and scolipede is quite fast, base 112 speed, outspeed by scarfed pokes with benefical nature and a few others frail pokes (this means that they can only dream to revange kill and already +2 Scolipede). This set is not impossible to stop but of course if you let scolipede dance you will surely lose a pokemon. But is not this the same scenario with every poke that can boost their offensive by +2? (Quick boosters, a term coined by FireMage seconds ago)

Example scenario: your opponent just switched Zangoose in and his Toxic orb just activated, common sense says to switch in you wall..... BANG! Zangoose used Sword Dance now you have a pokemon with an effective +3 attack and 95 base speed. Other example being Nasty Plot misdreavus with the added surprise factor, since most of the missys are defensive. Have this made them unstoppable? (I prefer to use unmaneagle, fit better) Of course not, Scolipede 60/89/69 means that hi is promt to be revange killed (with scarfed Rotom-S making a comeback, it can come in treat scoli with air slash or just volt switch out). Of couser stopping a fast setup sweeper with the ability to pass said boots is not an easy task but is by no means impossible.

Will post about Jynx later, maybe, because we have a full thread about that. Will focus my argument in this simple question: have something changed since the last time Jynx was suspected?

 

[Blast]

No comment on Scolipede atm, but I honestly think that Jynx should stay. One argument that's been brought up so far is that Jynx is "unhealthy" for the meta but I heavily disagree with that. In fact I'd argue that some of the things that Jynx, and only Jynx, can do actually helps balance things out further--for example, Scarf Jynx is one of the only things that can reliably revenge kill Shell Smashers such as Carracosta and Gorebyss after a boost (especially the former), and by far the best option. Furthermore it's the only fast Ice-type that has access to a reliable and powerful Ice-type attack, and one of the very few offensive threats that can at the very least hold its own against, say, Ludicolo in the rain along with other Water-types like Samurott (albeit unreliably). Basically Jynx is far more than a Pokémon that's just really difficult to deal with, it fulfills very specific and relevant roles and I don't think getting rid of it would benefit the metagame much at all.

Now, I'm not really gonna touch on Jynx being "easy" to deal with because frankly, it's not. This is probably the only argument that makes Jynx *potentially* broken; there are already very few Pokémon that can switch safely into Jynx and thanks to Lovely Kiss, there are virtually none. But like I said I don't think banning it is going to make things much better in the long run because of how important it and its roles are to the meta.

TLDR Jynx isn't easy to play against, but I still feel the meta needs it far more than it needs it gone.

Also js Fuzznip but don't trash "gimmicky" movesets that are tailored to luring Jynx, especially when they don't really lower the Pokémon's general effectiveness all that much, because luring shit is the whole point of using gimmicks. Pursuit is completely viable on Metang if you already have a SRer and even if Jynx leaves Pursuit would still have use in trapping Gardevoir or w/e. Gyro Ball Wartortle is really weird but it's not like it's making Wartortle any worse of a Rapid Spinner by using it. Using this type of stuff is simply getting a little innovative and paying a small price for a high reward.

Will prolly post about Scoli later

 

[Audiosurfer]

No comment on Scolipede atm, but I honestly think that Jynx should stay. One argument that's been brought up so far is that Jynx is "unhealthy" for the meta but I heavily disagree with that. In fact I'd argue that some of the things that Jynx, and only Jynx, can do actually helps balance things out further--for example, Scarf Jynx is one of the only things that can reliably revenge kill Shell Smashers such as Carracosta and Gorebyss after a boost (especially the former), and by far the best option. Furthermore it's the only fast Ice-type that has access to a reliable and powerful Ice-type attack, and one of the very few offensive threats that can at the very least hold its own against, say, Ludicolo in the rain along with other Water-types like Samurott (albeit unreliably). Basically Jynx is far more than a Pokémon that's just really difficult to deal with, it fulfills very specific and relevant roles and I don't think getting rid of it would benefit the metagame much at all.

Now, I'm not really gonna touch on Jynx being "easy" to deal with because frankly, it's not. This is probably the only argument that makes Jynx *potentially* broken; there are already very few Pokémon that can switch safely into Jynx and thanks to Lovely Kiss, there are virtually none. But like I said I don't think banning it is going to make things much better in the long run because of how important it and its roles are to the meta.

TLDR Jynx isn't easy to play against, but I still feel the meta needs it far more than it needs it gone.

Also js Fuzznip but don't trash "gimmicky" movesets that are tailored to luring Jynx, especially when they don't really lower the Pokémon's general effectiveness all that much, because luring shit is the whole point of using gimmicks. Pursuit is completely viable on Metang if you already have a SRer and even if Jynx leaves Pursuit would still have use in trapping Gardevoir or w/e. Gyro Ball Wartortle is really weird but it's not like it's making Wartortle any worse of a Rapid Spinner by using it. Using this type of stuff is simply getting a little innovative and paying a small price for a high reward.

Will prolly post about Scoli later

There are other methods of handling Pokemon such as Carracosta, it's not like Jynx is the only one, just the most popular. And Gorebyss isn't even a real threat anymore (like no one uses Gorebyss and every good Scarfer can outspeed it) so that isn't a big deal either. And you concede that it is incredibly difficult to switch into Jynx, especially given the threat of sleep. Given that, why would you want Jynx in the metagame? Pokemon such as Carracosta and Ludicolo have been in the tier before without Jynx, and players were able to handle them, so there's no reason to suggest that they'd be overpowering without it. Even if they were, you could just ban them too, it's still not a reason to keep Jynx around.

Also, when you have to use a moveset that isn't generally effective in order to check a specific mon, then that mon should be looked at. Pursuit Metang is already kind of sketchy, but something like Gyro Ball Wartortle (seriously what is this) is not something that would see the light of day if not for the fact that it can check Jynx. If a Pokemon is so good that it forces you to use obscure sets like that to avoid being manhandled by it, then that Pokemon is not good for the metagame.

Given the small amount of checks to Jynx that are in the tier, it means that everyone is forced to use a handful of Pokemon on their teams over and over to check Jynx, which isn't good. It's fast, powerful, and has sleep to get around potential checks, meaning you need to pack two or sack something to sleep. Some people argue that you can wear it down thanks to its SR weakness but in practice this argument is pretty sketchy since once it gets in once or twice it can already start tearing through mons. I think Jynx should be banned since it would produce more diversity in the tier, remove the presence of a centralizing and overpowered Pokemon, and make the tier more enjoyable.

 

[scorpdestroyer]

I'd like to state my stance that Scolipede needs to go. There are a few reasons why I say this:

1) Scolipede can effortlessly stack Spikes. Literally nothing in NU can reliably prevent Scolipede from getting up at least 2 layers of Spikes without getting heavily dented in the process. Taunt users are either slower than it or frail enough to be OHKOed, Magic Coat users are uncommon and can be played around (heck, the fact that some Pokemon choose to run Magic Coat to counter Scolipede's Spikes already show something, ie. Golurk and to an extent Bastiodon [whose Magic Coat set never really took off beforehand]), Rock Blast Golem can't prevent one layer and needs to pray that it hits thrice = unreliable. Being able to spray around entry hazards every game does not make NU enjoyable at all like Cherub already mentioned. We've seen OU banned the 2 Deoxys formes and UU ban Froslass. Why is that so? All 3 of them could set up entry hazards with little to no risk and have extremely high Speed (apart from Deoxys-D). Sure, Scolipede doesn't have Destiny Bond or Taunt, but here in NU there are literally no good Rapid Spin users and that means all those layers of entry hazards are going to stick around most of the time, hence discouraging switching and making the meta much more offensive. As a result of this, stall became a lot less popular in the first few months and never really got back to the level of popularity it once had. Sidfrid brought up that Torkoal with Lava Plume could defeat Scolipede but as far as I'm concerned it's not a very good argument because 1) Scolipede can still stack 2 layers of Spikes if burn doesn't happen and still gets up 1 layer even if it does and 2) what is Torkoal's role in your team? Solely to counter Scolipede? Defensive Torkoal is a defensive Fire-type, which will never be as effective as the other physical walls in the tier with Stealth Rock around, and will be even less effective if Scolipede gets a layer of entry hazards off each time it gets into the field. Torkoal may be able to counter Scolipede in the traditional sense, but take into account the fact that on the playing field, there's no guarantee that Scolipede vs Torkoal is always happening, because remember that bulky Scolipede and Life Orb Scolipede exist, not just sash lead. I would say 8 times out of 10, the situation will be that Scolipede is in before Torkoal and gets up the Spikes, and can easily get off another layer or simply switch to a spinblocker and come back later. Torkoal is also going to find a hard time switching in later, because once again, Spikes. Yes, Scolipede's presence is diminishing even further the role of grounded SR-weak Pokemon as they lose a whopping 50% HP with all hazards up. Out of all the SPL matches so far, how many times have you seen a grounded SR-weak Pokemon not named Scolipede or Jynx? That Sawk vs Torkoal calc isn't very relevant anyway because it 2HKOes it with Earthquake (and Close Combat), while Mola can scout and switch thanks to Regen, so it does seem to me like Torkoal is being used just to check Scolipede and maybe Grass-types which it cannot really do effectively anymore. Sidfrid later mentioned a few other things that could "beat" Scolipede, but notice how they all get set up on; Probopass can't prevent 2 layers either, and this was part of the reasoning that got Froslass banished from UU. And while I'm at it, 4MSS doesn't really exist on Scolipede because the main set has Spikes, Megahorn, Aqua Tail and a filler move that can be tailored to suit the team's needs and these three are really all Scolipede needs to stack Spikes effectively.

Remember though that Sash lead isn't the only Spikes Scolipede set. We have Life Orb, Bug Gem, BulkyPede, Payapa Berry etc. and they are all dangerous in their own way. SashPede has been the focal point of many arguments here for good reason, so I won't touch on that. I'd like to state here the effect that BulkyPede has on the meta. While offensive Scolipede can set up layers quickly, BulkyPede can set up layers consistently. This can be likened to Deoxys-D: there was the fast offensive set that Spikesed quickly while the defensive one could Spike up throughout the game. No longer can Golem KO with 3 Rock Blasts, no longer can Lava Plume Torkoal KO with burn, while Scolipede can now set up even more hazards in front of weaker opponents. Once again, the 3 moves + filler is the main ingredient behind Bulky Scolipede, but this one can be bulky enough to set up Spikes and continue to threaten Charizard, Jynx, and anything else below the monkeys. Consistent Spikes are just as good as fast Spikes and there is a huge reason to use Scolipede over, say, Garbodor: Speed and offensive presence. The extra Speed over Garbodor allows Scolipede to get off extra layers while the offensive presence means its harder to set up on Scolipede, and let's face it, Garbodor is really only used because of Aftermath as well as slightly superior physical bulk. Garbodor (and Cacturne and Roselia I guess) was once the premier NU Spiker, but even then it couldn't get off so many hazards guaranteed. Now look at Scolipede.

2) Scolipede has other huge utility outside of Spikes. Offensive Spiking sets could also threaten the opponent really hard. The closest thing I can draw to a parallel right now is Cacturne, but even so Cacturne didn't have blazing Speed, Cacturne didn't have amazing STAB moves and amazing coverage, and Cacturne couldn't Spike twice a game and damage the opponent at the same time. Meanwhile, Sash, Life Orb, and Bug Gem Scolipede could Spike away and once it's done, it can threaten the opponent right away. Base 90 Attack doesn't sound much, but to make up for it, Scolipede has a base 120 STAB move that hits a lot of things for at least neutral, a powerful coverage move in Aqua Tail, Swarm, Swords Dance and quite possibly a boosting item. To top that off, not a lot of things that can threaten Scolipede can outspeed it. In addition to being such a terrifying attacker, also remember that it can set up Spikes effortlessly to aid its teammates or even itself. Scolipede can do so many things in one moveset, and that's just one of the many things it can do. Bulky Scolipede has a lot of utility and is probably a better Sawk check than Garbodor because it can switch into both of Sawk's main moves, at the same time Charizard, Musharna, Jonx etc are still not safe. It's also the only NU Spiker that can include both Spikes and Toxic Spikes without sacrificing an important move. I haven't even touched on non-Spikes sets yet, and I will do so now: SubSalac is easily one of the most threatening sweepers right now. Add a speed boost to one of the fastest things in NU, a swords dance boost, a base 120 attack Pokemon and swarm, and possibly baton pass, and you get a massive sweeper and supporter in one that can escape all its counters except maybe Kangaskhan

So what was the purpose of telling you all this? To show that Scolipede isn't limited to just a Spiking role. Froslass and Deoxys were banned because they Spiked really well (and Destiny Bond in Froslass's case). Scolipede not only Spikes insanely well, it also threatens the opponent in the process. While those threats powerful enough to get banished from higher up tiers couldn't really do much against teams not weak to Spikes, Scolipede can simply set up Swords Dance and go to town thanks to a combo of Speed and power, similar to any normal sweeper. If the opponent isn't weak to offensive Scolipede, it can simply set up Spikes. Within one moveset Scolipede can already be so damn versatile. Why shouldn't it be banned or suspected at least, if those higher up threats could be banned even when all they did was set up Spikes?

3) There's no harm in including Scolipede in your team. Every single team loves Spikes, even more so 2 layers of them a game. Guess which Pokemon can set them up consistently? Unlike Garbodor or Roselia, all variants of Scolipede can threaten opponents such that it isn't set up fodder. This is great for offensive teams especially since they don't carry a phazer while Scolipede can continue to hit hard and fast once it's done. For bulky offense teams, Scolipede is great as well because it can set up both Spikes and Toxic Spikes without sacrificing an important move, something that neither Garbo nor Rose can claim to do. Heck even stall teams can fit bulky Scolipede into their teams. I refer you to BasedVictory's stall team, one that could fit in Scolipede without any major repercussions. As you can see, Scolipede can easily fit into teams of almost all archetypes.

What if you don't include Scolipede in your team? In this new meta defined by it, not having a Spikes setter could easily be a disadvantage because while your opponent is placing all the pressure on you, you aren't doing the same. Hence having a Spikes setter on your team can only be beneficial. Guess which Pokemon is the most reliable, most effective, most versatile, and has the most utility out of all Spikers? Yep, Scolipede. This is not to say that the other Spikers do not have their own niches. However most of the time when you think "wow I need a reliable and effective Spiker", Scolipede is the one that comes to mind because that's what it does best. The reason you pick Rose as your Spiker is not because it Spikes well but because it counters Ludicolo, special Samurott, Alomomola and acts as a special wall. The reason you pick Garbodor as your Spiker is because you want something to pressure users of contact moves with Rocky Helmet and Aftermath. But the reason you pick Scolipede as your Spiker is because it Spikes reliably and it's the best Spikes user. So if I was looking for a good Spikes user, which no team would get any harm from having, I would first take a look at Scolipede.

4) Here I list some of the many metagame changes Scolipede brought around.

- Stall's role had diminished, even before the arrival of Mandibuzz because it was the playstyle that switched around the most
- Audino became more prominent than Lickilicky because Regenerator allowed it to switch in and out of Spikes
- Scarf Tauros and Swellow became more prominent because they could outspeed and OHKO, and the former never really played a large role before
- Garbodor and Roselia's role diminished
- Pinsir's role diminished
- Misdreavus and Weezing became more prominent because they could check Scolipede's coverage moves, although they couldn't prevent Spikes
- Meanwhile Tangela usage just died
- Grounded Poison-types are almost mandatory now
- It became almost mandatory to run Magic Coat on Bastiodon
- The role of Grass-types, especially Sawsbuck, diminished and the main ones that stayed relevant, Serperior and Ludicolo in rain, could outspeed it
- It became almost mandatory to use Jolly on Carracosta
- Grounded SR-weak mons dropped in usage, and those that managed to stay relevant had plenty of positive traits to offset that (Jynx, Scolipede)
- and most importantly, Spikes stacking became the face of NU

Thank you for your time. I'll post about Jynx another day

 

[ium]

Will post about Jynx later, maybe, because we have a full thread about that. Will focus my argument in this simple question: have something changed since the last time Jynx was suspected?

the metagame hasn't changed, but jynx was borderline to begin with considering the votes from the last test. i had quit before that suspect test but my opinion was essentially the same long before then. however, seeing some official tournaments that include this tier gives a nice perspective on how this metagame looks and that's a reason why it's being discussed again i assume

Also js Fuzznip but don't trash "gimmicky" movesets that are tailored to luring Jynx, especially when they don't really lower the Pokémon's general effectiveness all that much, because luring shit is the whole point of using gimmicks. Pursuit is completely viable on Metang if you already have a SRer and even if Jynx leaves Pursuit would still have use in trapping Gardevoir or w/e. Gyro Ball Wartortle is really weird but it's not like it's making Wartortle any worse of a Rapid Spinner by using it. Using this type of stuff is simply getting a little innovative and paying a small price for a high reward.

if you're using metang with another stealth rock user, you're pretty much opening up gaping holes for a lot of other things in the tier. pursuit metang is susceptible to lovely kiss anyway, but the takeaway here is that you still need to get past some coinflip situations because you can essentially have the wrong pokemon put to sleep or the wrong thing KO'd, and jynx usually forces such situations. gyro ball wartortle is at least usable because it's something that can hit jynx as it switches in, but unfortunately it doesn't even grab a KO. i know that these are just specific examples, but considering how we are being pushed to do minor set changes on pokemon that are already mediocre with their otherwise optimal sets and are still shaky just because jynx can potentially play around them shows that this isn't a good thing at all

in regards to weighing jynx's benefits against its cons, it just doesn't have anything in its own right that makes it stand out as a good contribution to the tier. i don't think that being a check to offensive water-types is an outstanding benefit because the same applies to so many other pokemon and this should not overshadow the fact that jynx is making the tier morph around it in all aspects—both offensively and defensively—which has been discussed enough times

4) Here I list some of the many metagame changes Scolipede brought around.

- Stall's role had diminished, even before the arrival of Mandibuzz because it was the playstyle that switched around the most
- Audino became more prominent than Lickilicky because Regenerator allowed it to switch in and out of Spikes
- Scarf Tauros and Swellow became more prominent because they could outspeed and OHKO, and the former never really played a large role before
- Garbodor and Roselia's role diminished
- Pinsir's role diminished
- Misdreavus and Weezing became more prominent because they could check Scolipede's coverage moves, although they couldn't prevent Spikes
- Meanwhile Tangela usage just died
- Grounded Poison-types are almost mandatory now
- It became almost mandatory to run Magic Coat on Bastiodon
- The role of Grass-types, especially Sawsbuck, diminished and the main ones that stayed relevant, Serperior and Ludicolo in rain, could outspeed it
- It became almost mandatory to use Jolly on Carracosta
- Grounded SR-weak mons dropped in usage, and those that managed to stay relevant had plenty of positive traits to offset that (Jynx, Scolipede)
- and most importantly, Spikes stacking became the face of NU

Thank you for your time. I'll post about Jynx another day

a lot of these points can be largely attributed to the fact that jynx is here as well since they entered together. magic coat bastiodon was always a thing. i also don't like how a lot of these are centered around what's used more or less because that doesn't necessarily dictate what should be banned, but i suppose there are valid points elsewhere in the post however

 

[Mistrals]

It's really hard to say that these should be done, simply because the BW NU tier is on it's last legs, and with the SPL going on and everything, it seems odd to make a gigantic change to it. And getting rid of either of these pokemon is a massive change. Scolipede in particular is one of(I'm hesitant to say THE, but it's arguable) the most influential pokemon in the tier right now. Maybe pokemon like Golurk and Sawk are used more, but that doesn't change the fact that many teams rely or use Scolipede as a major part of them, as a spikes supporter, life orb cleaner, or whatever else. You have to come up with some ridiculous craziness to have a surefire way to deal with it's spikes. Add in that it has a variety of effective sets, for setting spikes and for not, and you have a threatening, unpredictable pokemon. Plus, the biggest counter to it's toxic spikes is itself, I'd have to say. It has no real competition on a team for spikes support because it's, quite simply, the best at what it does. The other spike setters have major flaws. Roselia's defense, Garbodor is just slow and predictable. Just ask yourself, what actually counters Scolipede's spike setting that isn't one of the horrible 3 usable rapid spinners. What completely blocks it that doesn't quickly die to a megahorn, rock slide, aqua tail or earthquake? Give me one surefire way that is completely competitively viable. One.

Didn't think so.

 

[Fuzznip]

I don't think either of them are too bad, but I'm questioning why this wasn't done well before SPL started? The NU finals finished on November 11th (when Bloo beat Aerialace TM40), and SPL didn't start until December 23rd. I think this is entirely relevant because this SPL most likely marks the last time where BW NU is included in an official tournament. Why change the metagame drastically in the middle of it?

Well, NU is still going to be played competitively for the next two+ months or so due to SPL. If there are threats that are keeping the metagame from being balanced (and fun to play), then they need to be dealt with. This is pretty much why we're having a Jynx and Scolipede discussion now because these two have been complained about for an extensive period of time (basically when Grand Slam started) due to their overpowering aspects. The timing could be better, but I don't think it's too late for the tier to make some much-needed changes just based on the viewpoints of people posting in this thread and tournament players that played in the NU Open and are playing in SPL.

 

[Raseri]

I don't think either of them are too bad, but I'm questioning why this wasn't done well before SPL started? The NU finals finished on November 11th (when Bloo beat Aerialace TM40), and SPL didn't start until December 23rd. I think this is entirely relevant because this SPL most likely marks the last time where BW NU is included in an official tournament. Why change the metagame drastically in the middle of it?

My goal as a tier leader first and foremost is to manage and guide the metagame to the healthiest form possible. I am personally OK with how it is now, but recently people have been bringing up valid concerns with the state of NU. It is my job to listen to and allow other people to discuss the current state of the metagame. As long as the people in this thread are intelligent and civilized, I see no issue with allowing them to discuss the metagame and potential suspects.

I'd also like to note that I haven't officially declared either Jynx or Scolipede a suspect, this thread is currently just for discussing the possibility. I will post later when I have come to a more definitive decision.

Also, the lack of future tournament (or the role of current tournaments) is ultimately irrelevant to suspect discussion. Smogon is a website based around tiering Pokemon first and foremost, the tournament scene should not put a hault to tiering. Other metagames are not stopping tiering during SPL. Even though BW NU may be on its last legs, it is still important to our reputation to have a balanced tier for people to play in the future. It's unfortunate that this has to happen so late, but it is still better than ignoring it altogether.

 

[Brawlfest]

While Jynx is one of the most versatile pokemon in the tier, being one of the few fully immune to water attacks, packing a relatively reliable sleep move, and packing an extremely unpredictable moveset including such threats as Nasty Plot and Focus Blast. That being said, she isn't broken at by any measurement. Being susceptible to many hazards, she is often limited in her switches, which can be a huge issue considering two of her favored items are a Choice Scarf and a Focus Sash, one of which forces her to constantly switch, and the other eliminating her chances of switching effectively at all. I also completely agree with the argument that Jynx is healthy for the metagame. There are few threats that are insanely hard to control, namely Carracosta, Gorebyss, Ludicolo, and surprisingly Scolipede, all of whom the scarfed Jynx set is able to revenge kill reliably for a team, lacking a way to deal with some of the strongest threats in the metagame. While she is by no means not the single strongest pokemon in the metagame at the minute, I do not feel that jynx is broken by any means and thus she should NOT be banned.

Scolipede is a different story. Ever since his joining of the NU tier, spikes stacking has really just become a black and white issue. Use Scolipede and get a hard hitting, solidly bulky, quick spiker. Or use Roselia / Garbodor, for bulkier, relatively defenseless, slower spikers. If you have a team with any offensive presence, more than likely you will be choosing Scolipede. It's ability to ruthlessly set up 2-3 layers against any single pokemon in the metagame, and to have the typing and movepool necessary to eliminate even some of the strongest physical walls [Mushy and Tangela]. In a metagame where Sawk is the primary "Rapid Spinner", Scolipede finds even more ease, going in on Sawks locked into a wrong move and getting of layers again and again, with little to no issue, especially with bulkipede sets. However, this amazing role in spikes stacking doesn't prevent Scolipede from being one of the most potent sweepers in the game, being outright the best SubSalac abuser in the metagame, as well as having access to a variety of coverage, and Swords Dance to boost it's already above average 100 base attack, to completely decimate any pokemon in the NU metagame. And once it gets this Salac berry, it is near impossible for offensive teams to stop, due to all common scarfers being slower than it, as well as it's distinct resistance to Mach Punch, even avoiding priority from only 26% health. For the above reasons, I feel that Scolipede SHOULD be banned.

Thank you for reading!

 

[Cherub Agent]

I'm of the opinion that if a broken Pokemon is keeping other broken Pokemon in check, then those Pokemon simply need to be looked at as well. That said, while I can see your point about Jynx handling the threats that you mentioned, it's not the only one, just perhaps the most reliable one. Plenty of other excellent ways to deal with these Pokemon exist... Gorebyss can be revenge killed by plenty of Scarfers above base 86 Speed, and it runs Signal Beam in this meta for Jynx anyway. Carracosta can be revenge killed by stuff like Scarf Simisage/-pour, standard Serperior, beaten by Seimsitoad, etc. Ludicolo can be revenge killed by stuff like Kangaskhan, Scarf Tauros, Gardevoir, walled by Mantine, etc. I think that Jynx and Scolipede are the only Pokemon needed to be suspected, but I don't agree with the mentality of keeping a broken Pokemon in a tier because it checks other dangerous Pokemon.

 

[ryan]

I had no idea this discussion was even taking place, but I'm really glad it is.

I remember someone brought up Scolipede a long time ago, and I kind of just brushed it off because I'd used it a ton and hadn't struggled with it much. But as time passed and I started using different Pokemon and different playstyles that weren't bog standard, I realized how much of a hindrance it was for pretty much every playstyle barring offense (which is what I'd been using of course). I'm sure I'm repeating a lot of shit right now because I can't be fucked to read wall of text after wall of text, but bear with me I guess.

Scolipede is broken in NU because of how easy it is for it to set Spikes and how difficult it is for opponents to manage them. You can't just rely on spinning them away because our best spinner is Wartortle, which is still bad, and without Foresight, Misdreavus easily spinblocks it anyways. What's worse is that it makes any Pokemon that can't do much to it a huge liability to have on a team. Most notably, almost every defensive Pokemon and Fighting-type either has to run a gimmicky set to make sure that Scolipede cannot take advantage of them or just flat out be taken advantage of. Obviously Primeape and Sawk can Stone Edge, but if they ever use their STAB, they're opening up a free switch for Scolipede to come in and start Spiking again. This wouldn't be quite as big of a deal either if Scolipede wasn't so goddamn fast. But it outspeeds almost everything in NU and still retains good bulk and attacking prowess unlike Garbodor and Roselia, which are both bulkier but way slower and way to somewhat weaker.

Basically, Scolipede single-handedly makes NU a Spikes meta, and there are pretty much no Pokemon that are good at reliably preventing it from doing its job. Checks to offense and Sash sets tend to get set up on by bulky sets and vice-versa.

I don't feel as strongly about Jynx. I guess I'm slightly on the fence about it, but I still hold the stance of my original vote on it—it's a top metagame threat, but it is not broken. One of the arguments that I keep seeing is that Jynx forces you to use gimmicks like Gyro Ball Wartortle and Yache Berry Magic Coat Golurk in order to beat it, but that's just as bad of an argument as it was when it was brought up in the last suspect thread. You're clearly not forced to use these things, or else they would actually see some sizeable amount of usage. But the fact remains that they don't. They're just gimmicks used to lure and take out Jynx, which are not at all bad things to have on a team. I run Colbur Golurk on one of my teams in order to lure Skuntank, but this doesn't mean that Skuntank is overcentralizing the metagame. It just means that on that particular team, I wanted to use something to easily get rid of a Pokemon that threatens my team a lot. Stop using that argument because it's stupid.

The other argument that I don't really care for is that there are no good defensive answers for Jynx, so it should definitely be banned. On paper, there are no good Jynx answers outside of stuff like Sleep Talk Metang because the best defensive checks can be put to sleep or Tricked a Choice Scarf, but in practice, there's more to handling Jynx than just bringing a hard counter for it. If you apply this same logic to Charizard, then it should be banned as well. There are no counters to Charizard; the special sets alone only have a couple of counters, and those are destroyed by its SD set. Regirock is easy to wear down and take out with Focus Blast. Alomomola is 2HKOed by LO HP Grass, LO Air Slash + LO HP Grass after Stealth Rock and/or Spikes, and Specs HP Grass/Air Slash. The main arguments about checking Charizard are that Stealth Rock handles it, but a lot of people in this thread have already mentioned how easy it is to keep Stealth Rock from being set. Plus, Charizard can benefit from Stealth Rock being up because of Blaze. I fail to see how Charizard is any better than Jynx, yet all the bitching has gone towards it. Playing well with your hazard users, carrying priority, running Pursuit and/or faster Scarfers, etc. are all ways of managing Jynx in the battle. If you're arguing that stall has a lot of troubles beating Jynx, then it's important to remember that stall isn't that great in NU anyways. Not saying it's wholly unviable because it's not, even with Jynx in the tier, but there are loads of Pokemon that give stall an incredibly difficult time.

At any rate, I understand why people think Jynx is broken and that it will probably be banned from NU if Raseri decides to suspect test it, but at the end of the day, I don't mind that much. I still don't think it's banworthy, but I won't act like NU would be less fun without Jynx in the tier.

ugh I was just bitching about walls of text then posted on myself. I'm the worst.

 

[Django]

Hi so apparently I am alive again.

I'm going to talk about Jynx here since I feel everyone else has covered Scolipede quite well - Frosslass / Deoxys comparisons are pretty apt, and while it doesn't have the insane effect that those two did, it's still enough to be suspected.

I've said it before, but the main issue I have with Jynx is it's ability to force 2 for 1 situations in the large majority of games. By this I mean a situation where the Jynx user will either cripple or kill at least 2 of the Pokemon on the other team with Jynx alone. I'm aware there are other Pokemon that can do this under certain circumstances, but there is nothing that can do it with the regularity and consistency like Jynx can, except for maybe Scolipede with Spikes and Megahorn since the effect of Spikes can end up being more than a Pokemon. Anyway, the reason Jynx is able to do this is due to the combination of a reliable Sleep move and it's amazing speed tier along with ridiculous offensive presence and movepool. Due to the nature of BW Sleep, and the massively offensive tendencies NU has, putting something to Sleep is essentially a dead Pokemon. You are simply not going to get enough free turns to let it wake up, unless you get extremely lucky. Once Jynx has incapacitated something with Sleep, it can go ahead and use its extremely powerful STABs, potentially Focus Blast coverage, or Nasty Plot, or Trick on a Scarf set, to start punching holes in the other team. The fact of the matter is, without running very specific counters, it's extremely difficult to stop Jynx forcing these 2 for 1s.

So people have been talking about Gyro Ball Wartortle, Sleep Talk / Pursuit Metang as ways to beat Jynx, and yes it's true they do handle Jynx somewhat consistently (you canstill just get slept and end up as a free switch for so many more dangerous Pokemon...). The issue I have with running these sets is that the majority of the time they are not good sets, and they would NEVER see the light of day if Jynx wasn't around. Maybe RestTalk Metang, but I seriously question Metangs place in a metagame without Jynx. When we teambuild we aim to maximise our chances of winning by running Pokemon and moves that can deal with as much of the metagame as possible. When you put Gyro Ball Wartortle on a team, you are doing it for literally no other reason than to hit Jynx as it switches in. So you go into your tournament match all ready to make plays with Gyro Ball Wartortle, and the opponent doesn't bring Jynx. Sick one, you've now got 23 moves compared the the opponents 24 and your chances of winning have immediately gone down, without the opponent even running Jynx. The other major impact Jynx has on teambuilding is it really limits what you can and can't run. So many times I've thought of interesting or unique cores and then gone to build a team around them, but you just realise that for the team to function properly you still need too many things: more than one Jynx switch in, a way to deal with Sleep, a way to deal with Spikes. The fact is that all these things are incredibly limited in NU, and so teambuilding becomes extremely stale and irritating. I'm sure Soulgazer will back me up on this.

I'll just quickly respond to a few other things here...

I also completely agree with the argument that Jynx is healthy for the metagame. There are few threats that are insanely hard to control, namely Carracosta, Gorebyss, Ludicolo, and surprisingly Scolipede, all of whom the scarfed Jynx set is able to revenge kill reliably for a team, lacking a way to deal with some of the strongest threats in the metagame.

Sorry but this just isn't an argument. Yes Jynx does revenge kill all of those, but so does any number of Pokemon that would be overepowered in NU. You can't argue a Pokemon should stay in the tier since it checks other powerful threats. If something is absolutely too powerful then it should be banned, if that leads to other Pokemon being overpowered then those should be banned as well. This is ignoring the fact that Carracosta Gorebyss and Ludicolo were all in the tier before Jynx, and all were able to be dealt with (Ludicolo and Gorebyss were also much, MUCH more popular).

One of the arguments that I keep seeing is that Jynx forces you to use gimmicks like Gyro Ball Wartortle and Yache Berry Magic Coat Golurk in order to beat it, but that's just as bad of an argument as it was when it was brought up in the last suspect thread. You're clearly not forced to use these things, or else they would actually see some sizeable amount of usage. But the fact remains that they don't. They're just gimmicks used to lure and take out Jynx, which are not at all bad things to have on a team. I run Colbur Golurk on one of my teams in order to lure Skuntank, but this doesn't mean that Skuntank is overcentralizing the metagame. It just means that on that particular team, I wanted to use something to easily get rid of a Pokemon that threatens my team a lot. Stop using that argument because it's stupid.

I don't think anyone is saying you are forced to use them (you're right, you're not). I think the issue people, including myself, have with those sets (Gyro Ball Wartortle in particular) is that they are run for literally no other reason than Jynx. If your opponent doesn't bring Jynx, you're at a disadvantage. Colbur Berry Golurk is a good example of one of these "gimmicks" (I hate that concept but whatever) that is actually good. I've used it a lot as well, and yes the primary use is a Skuntank lure, but it also means Golurk doesn't give a shit about Zangoose, Sucker Punch, and a number of other great things. Gyro Ball Wartortle hits Jynx as it switches in, that's it. This point kind blends into the next thign I'll talk about tough (and have already talked about) - the ridiculous effect Jynx has on teambuilding.

The other argument that I don't really care for is that there are no good defensive answers for Jynx, so it should definitely be banned. On paper, there are no good Jynx answers outside of stuff like Sleep Talk Metang because the best defensive checks can be put to sleep or Tricked a Choice Scarf, but in practice, there's more to handling Jynx than just bringing a hard counter for it. If you apply this same logic to Charizard, then it should be banned as well. There are no counters to Charizard; the special sets alone only have a couple of counters, and those are destroyed by its SD set. Regirock is easy to wear down and take out with Focus Blast. Alomomola is 2HKOed by LO HP Grass, LO Air Slash + LO HP Grass after Stealth Rock and/or Spikes, and Specs HP Grass/Air Slash. The main arguments about checking Charizard are that Stealth Rock handles it, but a lot of people in this thread have already mentioned how easy it is to keep Stealth Rock from being set. Plus, Charizard can benefit from Stealth Rock being up because of Blaze. I fail to see how Charizard is any better than Jynx, yet all the bitching has gone towards it. Playing well with your hazard users, carrying priority, running Pursuit and/or faster Scarfers, etc. are all ways of managing Jynx in the battle. If you're arguing that stall has a lot of troubles beating Jynx, then it's important to remember that stall isn't that great in NU anyways. Not saying it's wholly unviable because it's not, even with Jynx in the tier, but there are loads of Pokemon that give stall an incredibly difficult time.

Agreed, you can't just ban something on the basis there are no defensive checks to it (although as a sidenote I would want to suspect Charizard too lol!!). The issue with Jynx as opposed to Charizard, I feel, is Sleep. It forces you to run more than one solid check, since just running a revenge killer isn't 100% reliable and can be played around, apart from Scarf Tauros. More often than not Jynx will put something to Sleep and then put a huge hole in something else, before you can get your revenge killer in. At least with Charizard you can at least attempt to switch into it without worrying about Lovely Kiss.

That being said, like you've said, Jynx can be played around. Hazards, Pursuit, Priority, are all prominent and cause Jynx issues. It's also definitely not like Jynx is an auto win Pokemon, it takes some sort of skill to use. You can't just click Ice Beam and lolol win. I just feel that when it comes down to it, attempting to play around Jynx is so dangerous since the risk vs reward will always be in the Jynx users favour. One misplay on your part will likely lead to 2 Pokemon getting crippled, and it's this power that I feel makes Jynx unhealthy for NU.

Also it's good this is happening, DPP NU was improved massively when Entei and Espeon were removed long after the "end" of the tier, so I don't see why we wouldn't continue to look at making the tier better. The timing sucks with SPL sure, but I'd rather play the last half of SPL in a "better" metagame. Hopefully this can get resolved either way quickly!

Fuck me this is long sorry. I feel like a broken record this is the 5th time I've done a Jynx suspect test.

 

[Sidfrid]

Mean Scorpdestroyer, you mistook me for soulgayzer....

First let's focus this Thread. I will make two arguments that, IMO, both sides should agreed:

On Toxic Spikes removal:

I already adressed this, grounded poison types usage IS NOT based around absorbing toxic spikes. Every one of then have a use aside from that. Skunktank is a good pivot, trapper, bulky attacker and so on. Roselia is a PREMIER wall with access to aromatherapy, synthesys, sleep powder, spikes and have natural cure as an ability. Vileplume is a wall too, with aromatherapy, leech seed over Roselia and a situational ability in effect spore (also have the recently popular sunny day + Chlorophyll set). That scolipede scatter toxic spikes should not be the reason of this disscussion.

On spikes:

True, Scolipede is a good spikes user but no the only Spikes user. Garbodor is bulkier and roselia have more utility. The selection of your spiker really comes to your teams needs. Scolipede is useful for his offensive pressure, Garbodor is useful on fully hazard setup teams and Roselia can spikes if the team does not need healing that turn. Spikes stacking is not scolipede exclusive and is not like he can come in and set 3 layer of spikes, Scarf Rotom-S scare him, if he decide to spikes Musharna got a free switch and treat him, if he decide to spike charizard, too, got a free turn and scare him out again. Like with any other pokemon you just cannot switch him reckleslly because he need full invesment to be bulky (60/89/69 is not bulky without invesment). Any of the pokemons just mentioned have others use aside from scaring scolipede and scaring scolipede is not their main niche.

What I writed in those hide tags? Scolipede main reason to being suspect discussed is his ability to do SOMETHING ELSE whe he finished spikes stacking. And, IMO, any argument from both sides should address that ability.

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As a result of this, stall became a lot less popular in the first few months and never really got back to the level of popularity it once had. Sidfrid brought up that Torkoal with Lava Plume could defeat Scolipede but as far as I'm concerned it's not a very good argument because 1) Scolipede can still stack 2 layers of Spikes if burn doesn't happen and still gets up 1 layer even if it does and 2) what is Torkoal's role in your team? Solely to counter Scolipede? Defensive Torkoal is a defensive Fire-type, which will never be as effective as the other physical walls in the tier with Stealth Rock around, and will be even less effective if Scolipede gets a layer of entry hazards off each time it gets into the field.

Stall have never been popular in NU despite the lack of spiner. On torkoal against Scolipede, once torkoal defeated or scared scolipede he can spin the spikes away. Defensive fire-type is not without it flaws but no pokemon is without flaws, Torkoal is a physical wall that can be used in different situations and depends on your team. You can't simple slap a defensive wall in you team without support, not even the mighty alomomola. There will always be things in which your wall cannot switch in, and is not your wall fault nor your fault as a trainer is just because the tier is balanced and nothing stand over everything else.

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And while I'm at it, 4MSS doesn't really exist on Scolipede because the main set has Spikes, Megahorn, Aqua Tail and a filler move that can be tailored to suit the team's needs and these three are really all Scolipede needs to stack Spikes effectively.

4MSS is not only that you want to do a lot of things but cannot because of the 4 moveslot rules. There are times, like is happening with Scolipede, that you need to choose what will wall you. Scolipede need to choose what will wall him because he cannot treat the whole tier (like ludicolo or eelecktross do) depending on his move selection Rotom-S and Charizard HARD counter him and neither are setup fodder. If he choose to run Rock Slide over Earthquake Regirock scare and treaten him and Scolipede cannot 2HKO it with aqua tail.

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Add a speed boost to one of the fastest things in NU, a swords dance boost, a base 120 attack Pokemon and swarm, and possibly baton pass, and you get a massive sweeper and supporter in one that can escape all its counters except maybe Kangaskhan

Are you refering to speed boost Scolipede? because is 6th gen only.

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What completely blocks it that doesn't quickly die to a megahorn, rock slide, aqua tail or earthquake? Give me one surefire way that is completely competitively viable. One.

The same can be say about charizard and Life Orb Samurott. Having no completely competitively counter does not mean you are broken. The usage is what makes things standard, like the now standard Lum Skunktank (and no, I'm not comparing Lum Skuntank to Gyro ball Wartortle. What I'm saying is that the metagame always adjust himself to new treats and gimmick can become standard with enough support from the player base. example: the time SmashKoal was standard or the time when subBulk-up Braviary was used over his Banded or scarfed variant).

the metagame hasn't changed, but jynx was borderline to begin with considering the votes from the last test. i had quit before that suspect test but my opinion was essentially the same long before then. however, seeing some official tournaments that include this tier gives a nice perspective on how this metagame looks and that's a reason why it's being discussed again i assume

So the tournaments players this year are different from last year? Scolipede have almost two years on the tier with NU being played in the last SPL and never was he called to be suspect tested. With the metagame being the same (only exception being the Mandibuzz introduction). Is not like a new set was discovered (like Braviary SubBulk-up) nor a new ability released (like Cinccino Skill link). Those tournament matches are played mostly by the same people that used then last year Smogon Grand Slam and SPL. Nothing changed aside from the playerbase.

Well, NU is still going to be played competitively for the next two+ months or so due to SPL. If there are threats that are keeping the metagame from being balanced (and fun to play), then they need to be dealt with.

Banning things because the metagame might be better without it just isn't logical. This entire ban is about the metagame now and whether or not Jynx is broken in it. I am also very opposed to banning something that you don't think is broken, but you think makes the metagame not fun. Why? Because that is among the most subjective ways of voting there is. What you deem to be fun or not really doesn't matter at all if you're not 100% convinced its broken. I find Ludicolo to be no fun to play against, its good but no fun. Not banworthy. I don't see what is different with Jynx when its stated that you're not certain it needs to be banned.

If you're not 100% convinced that Jynx needs to be banned, it isn't broken. Banning something that you have second thoughts about just doesn't make sense.

Raseri adressed this just fine.

and Swords Dance to boost it's already above average 100 base attack, to completely decimate any pokemon in the NU metagame.

Base 90. The boost was in XY.

Wall of text just for this: Scolipede can treat your team once he set up the spikes, with the offensive pressure he made you switch a lot thus being damaged by those spikes. Scorpdestroyer said: why not use Scolipede?

Answer: why not use Charizard? he is VERY hard to counter, resist scolipede STAB, does not take damage from spikes and can OHKO him with either of his STAB.

Why not use Weezing? is a good wall and pivot, can burn Scolipede, pain split to recover damage and don't take damage from spikes.

Why not use Life Orb Samurott? this one is a bitch and to scout him you will surely lost a pokemon (this one should be suspect disccused imo)

even Double-edge Kangaskhan can work here.

All of them ASIDE from treatend Scolipede can do a variety of work for your team so they are not niche. They are good and usable pokemons.

 

[Cased]

I don't play Smogon NU avidly, but I play it from time to time and I do have some opinions on Jynx and Scolipede, although basically every argument has been stated before, it's worth it to post. I'll start off with Jynx, although a lot of my main points are addressed earlier in this suspect~

I'm not one for giant Tl;dr, most tl;dr aren't as intelligent as they seem anyways.


1) You need at least two Pokemon that keep Jynx in check / Jynx limits teambuilding a ridiculous amount.

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I know this point has been stated before but this is honestly the biggest reason why I believe Jynx is broken. Previously stated, in order to effectively beat Jynx, you need to have Sleep Fodder + a counter besides that, and a lot of the Jynx "counters" in the meta-game are fairly unviable or outclassed by a lot of other Pokemon. With Lovely Kiss and the terrible 5th gen sleep mechanics, you are essentially taking your opponent's counter to Jynx out of the equation, making it possible set-up fodder for yourself or fodder for your opponent, because odds are your opponent won't be able to burn 2-3 turns to wear off sleep without facing game-changing repercussions. On every team, you HAVE to have Sleep Fodder / Another way to beat Jynx on your team, which is what Django talked about when mentioning the 2 for 1 deal, Jynx cripples two Pokemon in exchange for its life. And that's at least two Pokemon, it could be more, best case scenario is that you revenge somehow, but if not, Jynx is still able to wreak havoc, although after two switch-ins to Rocks in a metagame with rare Rapid Spinning, priority is able to nab OHKOs. If people get sick of running two counters or attempting to create 50/50s every time Jynx switches in, they resort to priority after sacking a Pokemon, and priority is easy to switch into on any decently built team. Just summarizing what I said before, Jynx will blow by your team if you do not have Sleep Fodder + another counter. Every team must have two Pokemon able to beat Jynx, possibly even more depending on playstyle, which is what I mean by limits teambuilding.

2) People going out of their way to beat Jynx with gimmicks

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I'm all for using gimmicks in NU, effective ways to throw off your opponent by beating certain counters that whatever Pokemon has. But people have been going waaaayy to out of their way to beat Jynx. Of course all the good points are stated, Pursuit Metang, Gyro Ball Wartortle, literally these moves on these Pokemon do nothing else for any other Pokemon. The best Pursuit Metang can do is hit Musharna for 20% when it switches out, which is fairly sad. Gyro Ball Wartortle can't even break a Serperior Sub, unless you put in a solid amount of Attack EVs, clearly taking away from Wartortle's main use as a wall to most Fire/Water-type Pokemon while being able to Rapid Spin. These obviously aren't gimmicks but Lum Golem and Yache Golurk are for Jynx exactly, who's usage in tournament games have sky rocketed because of their ability to take on Jynx better than basically anything else in the tier. Although somebody already said this, without Jynx, a lot of the Pokemon essentially lose their effectiveness, esp. the Wartortle / Pursuit Metang. Summarizing this, Jynx's effectiveness has forced certain Pokemon to take away a moveslot that could be beneficial for loads of other Pokemon and situations in order to beat Jynx, showing that Jynx has centralized a tier to an extent. (Can't believe I used the word centralization, hate that word.)

3) Jynx is the most unpredictable Pokemon in the tier, making it incredibly hard to wall.

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Jynx obviously can only attack from the special side, but it can do so with a plethora of effective sets. Jynx can run a Lovely Kiss + 3 Attack set that is extremely lethal, with Focus Blast OHKOing the Steel-type Pokemon who are used to check most Jynx, i.e Probopass / Bastiodon / Klang w.e. Jynx is also capable of running an extremely effective Sash set, which bluffs scarf incredibly well and allows it to stay in on faster, threatening Pokemon if the sash is kept intact. the 3 Attacks, Focus Blast / Psychic / Ice Beam are capable of 2HKOing a lot of the tier and Lovely Kiss renders slower counters useless, and just a punching bag for Jynx. Nasty Plot gets a mention as well, abusing Lovely Kiss to set-up a Substitute and boost its Special Attack, and Lovely Kiss allows Jynx to put the Pokemon back to sleep if it wakes up to break the Sub, making it hard for the opponent to stop Jynx if it gets the chance to set-up. And last but not least, Scarf Jynx, the most used set and the most effective in my opinion, Base 95 Speed for a scarfer has defined the metagame, making a lot of scarfers that are under Base 95 become somewhat unviable, because unless they are used to form a VoltTurn core, they are fully outclassed by Jynx. Lovely Kiss allows Jynx to sleep its fodder, and Trick can cripple a counter late-game if necessary, and Ice Beam and Psychic is not resisted by much in the current NU Metagame. You have to scout for this every single game, which makes it incredibly hard to play against a threat as large as Jynx is. To summarize, Jynx's unpredictability makes it incredibly hard to play against, forcing the opponent to scout for it every game, making it near impossible to defeat.

To summarize all my points if you don't feel like reading...

Jynx will blow by your team if you do not have Sleep Fodder + another counter. Every team must have two Pokemon able to beat Jynx, possibly even more depending on playstyle, which is what I mean by limits teambuilding. Jynx's effectiveness has forced certain Pokemon to take away a moveslot that could be beneficial for loads of other Pokemon and situations in order to beat Jynx, showing that Jynx has centralized a tier to an extent. Jynx's unpredictability makes it incredibly hard to play against, forcing the opponent to scout for it every game, making it near impossible to defeat.

Will post about Scolipede later.

 

[Fuzznip]

I'm curios to know people's opinions regarding Charizard. I understand that this thread is primarily focused on Jynx and Scolipede as said in the OP, but no where does it read, if I'm not mistaken anyway, that other potential Pokemon can't be brought up as suspects. (Unsure if there's more to say about them too)

Charizard is another threat that's been getting a lot of attention lately. As far as I know, it wasn't entirely popular back then and started to gain more usage as competitive players started using it more and more throughout the official tournaments. Perhaps it's not evidently broken as Scolipede and Jynx are based on the standpoint of this thread, but I think it has numerous attributes that can very well make it a suspect-worthy threat (so many teams are weak to it tbh). I'll quickly go through a couple of reasons why I think it should be discussed further:

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1. Huge offensive presence and unpredictability.

It's no question that Charizard is one of the most threatening attackers in the tier. Not only is it backed up by base 109 Special Attack and 100 Speed, it's also equipped with an expansive movepool that allows it to hit the majority of the tier super effectively. Due to this, it's a difficult matter to counter Charizard without resorting to things such as Dratini, Zweilous, specially defensive Wartortle and Alomomola, and Grumpig, among other underused and/or ineffective counters; thus, it's most commonly dealt with by using checks, such as Tauros, Serperior, Aqua Jet Samurott and Carracosta, and Electabuzz. I think Charizard is another reason why stall has become more and more rare because it basically rips through common stall cores with its amazing coverage; it often needs to be played around a lot of the time.

Charizard is also an extremely unpredictable Pokemon. Like I said before, its movepool is enormous, so it can run a wide variety of sets depending on the teams needs. The overlooked Acrobatics set maims Charizard's common specially defensive switch-ins, while it can make good use of a Choice Scarf set to clean late-game and keep its checks at bay. Choice Specs is another set that punches gigantic holes to almost anything. An Expert Belt/Life Orb set with Roost gives Charizard both coverage and longevity. Even Focus Sash lead sets have seen usage on teams to get the offensive ball rolling. It's hard to predict what Charizard is going to throw out at you once it comes out without losing something or severely damaging something.

2. Stealth Rock weakness is not entirely a detriment.

I wouldn't consider Charizard's Stealth Rock weakness to be entirely crippling. It can actually take advantage of it due to its Blaze ability, allowing it to turn many 2HKOs into OHKOs or what have you. Choice Scarf and Specs variants are particularly good at using Stealth Rock to their advantage, specifically the former, as it can clean up late-game with boosted Fire Blasts/Flamethrowers. It's just an additional strategy/play one can use. Also, Charizard with Roost isn't that screwed over by it since it can get opportunities to heal up the lost health. Stealth Rock is still an effective means of dealing with Charizard, don't get me wrong, as it makes it more susceptible to being revenge killed by Pokemon such as Kangaskhan or whatever; however, sometimes it can end up working in the opponent's favour given the circumstances.

Also, Stealth Rock deterrents aren't hard to come by and are commonly paired with Charizard. Whether it be Bullet Seed Torterra, Choice Band Sawk, or even Wartortle, it's possible that Charizard is playing in a Stealth Rockless game for a good chunk of time.

Those are my thoughts on Charizard. I think it deserves to be analyzed a little more as a potential suspect.

 

[Brawlfest]

I'm curios to know people's opinions regarding Charizard. I understand that this thread is primarily focused on Jynx and Scolipede as said in the OP, but no where does it read, if I'm not mistaken anyway, that other potential Pokemon can't be brought up as suspects.

Charizard is another threat that's been getting a lot of attention lately. As far as I know, it wasn't entirely popular back then and started to gain more usage as competitive players started using it more and more throughout the official tournaments. Perhaps it's not evidently broken as Scolipede and Jynx are based on the standpoint of this thread, but I think it has numerous attributes that can very well make it a suspect-worthy threat (so many teams are weak to it tbh). I'll quickly go through a couple of reasons why I think it should be discussed further:

Hide

1. Huge offensive presence and unpredictability.

It's no question that Charizard is one of the most threatening attackers in the tier. Not only is it backed up by base 109 Special Attack and 100 Speed, it's also equipped with an expansive movepool that allows it to hit the majority of the tier super effectively. Due to this, it's a difficult matter to counter Charizard without resorting to things such as Dratini, Zweilous, specially defensive Wartortle and Alomomola, and Grumpig, among other underused and/or ineffective counters; thus, it's most commonly dealt with by using checks, such as Tauros, Serperior, Aqua Jet Samurott and Carracosta, and Electabuzz. I think Charizard is another reason why stall has become more and more rare because it basically rips through common stall cores with its amazing coverage; it often needs to be played around a lot of the time.

Charizard is also an extremely unpredictable Pokemon. Like I said before, its movepool is enormous, so it can run a wide variety of sets depending on the teams needs. The overlooked Acrobatics set maims Charizard's common specially defensive switch-ins, while it can make good use of a Choice Scarf set to clean late-game and keep its checks at bay. Choice Specs is another set that punches gigantic holes to almost anything. An Expert Belt/Life Orb set with Roost gives Charizard both coverage and longevity. Even Focus Sash lead sets have seen usage on teams to get the offensive ball rolling. It's hard to predict what Charizard is going to throw out at you once it comes out without losing something or severely damaging something.

2. Stealth Rock weakness is not entirely a detriment.

I wouldn't consider Charizard's Stealth Rock weakness to be entirely crippling. It can actually take advantage of it due to its Blaze ability, allowing it to turn many 2HKOs into OHKOs or what have you. Choice Scarf and Specs variants are particularly good at using Stealth Rock to their advantage, specifically the former, as it can clean up late-game with boosted Fire Blasts/Flamethrowers. It's just an additional strategy/play one can use. Also, Charizard with Roost isn't that screwed over by it since it can get opportunities to heal up the lost health. Stealth Rock is still an effective means of dealing with Charizard, don't get me wrong, as it makes it more susceptible to being revenge killed by Pokemon such as Kangaskhan or whatever; however, sometimes it can end up working in the opponent's favour given the circumstances.

Also, Stealth Rock deterrents aren't hard to come by and are commonly paired with Charizard. Whether it be Bullet Seed Torterra, Choice Band Sawk, or even Wartortle, it's possible that Charizard is playing in a Stealth Rockless game for a good chunk of time.

Those are my thoughts on Charizard. I think it deserves to be analyzed a little more as a potential suspect.

While Charizard can be unpredictable and a threat, I do not feel that it is broken. It does have a massive amount of sets, ranging from Choice Scarf, to Specs, to Ebelt, to even Swords Dance (Manliest set on the planet btw). That being said, it can be solidly checked with proper scouting. Once you know it's set, you can respond in a variety of ways. If specs, it can easily be revenge killed by essentially any scarfer in the metagame, and with stealth rocks it makes it difficult to switch in and out for zard. If scarf, you should be able to send out something to tank the move the opponent is locked into, as simply but scarfzard's attacks aren't that powerful, even a blaze range fire blast can be easily tanked by any resistance (which is very common in the form of water and rock types). SD Zard while unconventional, is probably the hardest to revenge kill, putting even dedicated walls into it's 2HKO range with AcroGem, e.g. Alomomola and Tangela. That being said, it is one of the harder pokemon to set up, due to lack of health upon the switch in as well as weakness to common scarfers and priority, such as aqua jet, ape stone edge, etc.

tl;dr: Charizard is extremely unpredictable. Its gargantuan movepool alongside its versatility makes it easily one of the most threatning pokemon in the tier. However, with proper scouting, almost every one of it's sets can be revenge killed / walled by certain threats in the meta. It is still broken regardless tbh.

 

[Lyren]

I totally agree with all the about points on Scolopede. I don't feel it has enough reasonable counters to ever warrant a team slot. While it can be argued that scol can be eliminated with as little as 2 layers of spikes up, teams can easily be built to allow for those spikes to collectively do as much damage. Further, without a grounded poison type 1 layer of toxic spikes can essentially win the game, meaning that teams have to include such or an opponent with a scol lead has such a large advantage over you that it's essentially impossible to recover from the early team cripple. Since there are so few grounded poison types that are in the high viability range, scol has a huge impact on teambuilding and makes NU, the biggest tier, far more stale than it should be.

Jynx, on the other hand, we all seem to agree is more questionable. It's pretty obvious that Jynx is centralizing, but whether or not it's broken is a bit more obtuse. Jynx's kiss is what makes her in question at all; until one of your pokes have been put to sleep, Jynx doesn't really have any hard counters. The best bet for taking out a Jynx with a switch in is Lum Berry Skuntank, but even then all it takes is two lovely kiss hits in a row and you've no longer got any way to beat it. While switching in sleep immune like Primeape, Electabuzz, and Megmar might seem like an option, jynx can easily one or 2HKO these pokes making them not safe switch ins in the slightest. One of the few hard counters for liepard is a pursuit trapping liepard running 100 SpD EVs and holding a lum berry, a set designed for nothing but ensure it brings down jynx with it and nothing else. When sets have to be specifically built around a poke to hard counter it, it becomes such a predominant threat that there is little reason not to abuse it. The biggest problem with Jynx in my opinion is that there is simply too many viable sets it can work with. It hits the speed tier for a scarf user, can be a sweeper with nasty plot, potentially screw up sets with trick, and even potentially run a decent specially defensive set if you decide to be really odd about your use of her. All of this is coupled with a fantastic movepool and just enough bulk to survive most priority move after rocks, and you have a poke that, while not unbeatable, does so much collective damage to a team that it loses it's ability to stand up to the remaining 5 pokes your opponent wields. Jynx simply does too many things too well. Much like scol, it's not directly unbeatable, it's just so good that there is hardly any reason not to use it for whatever role you've chosen. It just has so many good things going for it that even teams built specifically to handle Jynx will still find it threatening. Banning Jynx would be a positive impact on the meta overall as it would give more of a reason to use really solid, but overshadowed pokes such as Haunter and allow for a much wider variety of usable special walls without the hugely imposing threat of ice/psychic you expect to have to take while asleep for 5 turns.

You don't even have to feel sorry for either of these pokes if they get banned. Both of them are totally viable in RU so they'll still be used there. Just from a totally objective standpoint, it's not fun to face either of these pokes. I'm not alone in this opinion, and I really think the overall balance and enjoyability of the tier will improve if these two pokes leave. (especially Scolopede since it'll be leaving gen 6 anyways)

 

[Annoyer]

i don't really have a side chosen yet on any of the suspects but ill just post my opinions on them so far

jynx - its a powerhouse and we all know it. all of its sets are good against certain teams as stated multiple times in previous posts and its stats + movepool + typing + ability all combine to make it a great pokemon that makes it troublesome to deal with for basically any team. it has limited counters and switch-ins but it is manageable as seen through the past couple of months through fast mons, metang, pursuit trappers, or even lures. it is frail but that does not diminish its offensive capabilities much other than being revenge killed by priority easier. its definitely worth to be suspected again because although the metagame hasnt changed, people's opinions on the metagame have during this time (including mine). the thing that really pushes it to be banned or not imo is whether it is a healthy or unhealthy part of the metagame. on the healthy side, jynx is one of the best offensive mons that actually lets offensive teams deal with special water-types like samurott or ludicolo. it doesnt even fully counter these two as rott pops it with mhorn and ludi can 2hko with giga drain but the threat of letting jynx get a free switch in is really great and can shift momentum for the jynx users team. jynx (along with other mons like charizard and scolipede) also promotes a faster metagame which allows new pokemon like simipour and serperior to rise as well as more priority mons like sucker punch rotom-s, ssneak muk, or mach punch gurdurr to become common. it also one of the few scarfers that can actually take on smash costa and sd rott which are huge threats to most teams that lack bulky switch ins. on the unhealthy side, i feel that it is easiest to see how unhealthy jynx is for the metagame in the teambuilding aspect. you basically have to have one or two switch-ins, multiple mons to revenge it whether it be faster mon or priority, and making sure you dont give it free switch ins. sure, you have to adapt to new threats in the meta but you shouldnt have to adapt like half your team just for one mon - thats a bit too centralizing. in battling, you have to play smart to make sure jynx doesnt get multiple opportunities in a match which limits certain plays. also, jynx outclasses certain mons like gardevoir which is a bad effect on the meta. overall, im not sure whether jynx should be banned or not (leaning on the ban side tho...) but for now, it should definitely by a suspect.

scolipede - its not really a powerhouse like jynx in the sense that it can take out teams by itself; however, scolipede is definitely a threat due to the new (or i should say more effective) playstyle of offensive spikestacking in nu. scoli is a great offensive mon that can also support its team at the same time which definitely makes it a suspect. spikes are really hard to deal with in nu due to majority of walls and even offensive mons being grounded which makes the meta a lot more offensive than it used to be. stall is still somewhat viable but it always has to be prepared for spikes as spinners arent that great if you dont know that... from personal experience, i dont really find scolipede to be that unmanageable as a big part in dealing with it comes with teambuilding such as limiting its opportunities to set up spikes as well as making sure youre not running a super spikes weak team. also, tspikes are incredibly devastating to nu teams without a poison type but once again, thats up to teambuilding too. despite it being manageable from my experience, scolipede should be suspected and possibly banned because of the severe limitations it can place on opposing teams.

charizard - i definitely agree with fuzznip that if these two are getting suspected, why not charizard? charizard has always been a great mon but hasnt seen much usage until recently. its just as devastating as jynx if not more except it doesnt have the ability to put the opponent to sleep. however, it has a greater versatility due to having a buttload of possible sets that can shit on "common counters" to zard. i also feel that if scolipede and/or jynx get banned, charizard will become an even bigger threat due to the high possibility that the metagame will become slower, allowing zard to outspeed and destroy even more shit. its obvious downside is rocks but its kinda similar to jynx's extreme frailty which limits their switch ins. charizard can still take out at least one poke with rocks up, use rocks for its advantage through blaze, and just have an ultimately easier time without rocks giving it endless switch ins. although i dont think charizard should be banned (not a lot of talk about it yet), it should be suspected as it is almost as big of a threat as jynx. edit: @cased zard doesnt really need much support at all honestly. a bunch of solid teams use zard without a spinner and although rocks do limit zards potential alot, it still possesses the same ability to break through teams.

(didnt go into specifics like sets and for being more general because previous posts have really hammered out the specifics)

although the timing for this is pretty inconvenient and should have definitely happened sometime within the past month or two, im glad this suspect thread is here.

 

[Cased]

1. Huge offensive presence and unpredictability.

It's no question that Charizard is one of the most threatening attackers in the tier. Not only is it backed up by base 109 Special Attack and 100 Speed, it's also equipped with an expansive movepool that allows it to hit the majority of the tier super effectively. Due to this, it's a difficult matter to counter Charizard without resorting to things such as Dratini, Zweilous, specially defensive Wartortle and Alomomola, and Grumpig, among other underused and/or ineffective counters; thus, it's most commonly dealt with by using checks, such as Tauros, Serperior, Aqua Jet Samurott and Carracosta, and Electabuzz. I think Charizard is another reason why stall has become more and more rare because it basically rips through common stall cores with its amazing coverage; it often needs to be played around a lot of the time.

Charizard is also an extremely unpredictable Pokemon. Like I said before, its movepool is enormous, so it can run a wide variety of sets depending on the teams needs. The overlooked Acrobatics set maims Charizard's common specially defensive switch-ins, while it can make good use of a Choice Scarf set to clean late-game and keep its checks at bay. Choice Specs is another set that punches gigantic holes to almost anything. An Expert Belt/Life Orb set with Roost gives Charizard both coverage and longevity. Even Focus Sash lead sets have seen usage on teams to get the offensive ball rolling. It's hard to predict what Charizard is going to throw out at you once it comes out without losing something or severely damaging something.

2. Stealth Rock weakness is not entirely a detriment.

I wouldn't consider Charizard's Stealth Rock weakness to be entirely crippling. It can actually take advantage of it due to its Blaze ability, allowing it to turn many 2HKOs into OHKOs or what have you. Choice Scarf and Specs variants are particularly good at using Stealth Rock to their advantage, specifically the former, as it can clean up late-game with boosted Fire Blasts/Flamethrowers. It's just an additional strategy/play one can use. Also, Charizard with Roost isn't that screwed over by it since it can get opportunities to heal up the lost health. Stealth Rock is still an effective means of dealing with Charizard, don't get me wrong, as it makes it more susceptible to being revenge killed by Pokemon such as Kangaskhan or whatever; however, sometimes it can end up working in the opponent's favour given the circumstances.

Also, Stealth Rock deterrents aren't hard to come by and are commonly paired with Charizard. Whether it be Bullet Seed Torterra, Choice Band Sawk, or even Wartortle, it's possible that Charizard is playing in a Stealth Rockless game for a good chunk of time.
[/hide]
Those are my thoughts on Charizard. I think it deserves to be analyzed a little more as a potential suspect.

In my opinion, stall has seriously fallen off in terms of usage because of the amount of Spikes HO teams in the current metagame, making it incredibly hard to switch-in walls and take hits in the same turn. Although Charizard does play a role, the role comes nowhere close to the fact that it's very hard to make a stall that performs well on a consistent basis that has a spinner.

Charizard is one of the biggest offensive threats in the meta-game currently, being an incredible revenge Pokemon with Scarf, wallbreaker with Specs, and a great user of Expert Belt and Life Orb. Swords Dance obviously deserves a mention (like you said) because the special walls who switch-in are commonly destroyed by a +2 Acrobatics with Flying Gem. But anyways, I know you mentioned that there was fairly easy ways of preventing Rocks, such as matching up well with leads with Pokemon like CB Sawk w/ Mold Breaker and Bullet Seed Torterra, beating the common Stealth Rock Pokemon in the tier. This only works early game per se, of course I don't want to bring heavy prediction into suspect argument (double switches etc) but it is not hard to get a switch-in to your Stealth Rock Pokemon during the game most of the time, and if that happens, Charizard comes in and has the pressure of being forced to roost if E-Belt, LO, or SD. While Scarf / Specs has no possibility of doing so.

I also want to bring up how important that Priority is in this current meta when running balanced/offensive teams that seem to clearly be the most preferred playstyle in the metagame. The amount of priority in the tier makes it really hard for Pokemon such as Charizard, switch-in on Stealth Rocks and reliably come out while still being a relevant threat in that game. Because of the Stealth Rock weakness in a metagame that lacks reliable Rapid Spin Pokemon, supporting Charizard obviously gets tough, having to pair it with a Pokemon that has a chance of preventing Stealth Rock early game, or a Wartortle (Only good Rapid Spin Pokemon in the tier lessbeehonnessttt) which does not have a 100% spin guarantee with all the offensive pressure in the tier + 50/50 with Foresight + Ghosts in the tier which are very common in the NU Metagame.

I guess to summarize, Charizard is a potent threat in the NU Metagame (arguably the best one), but with the crippling weakness to Stealth Rock, ability to be revenged fairly easily after taking Stealth Rock damage by common threats in the metagame with either priority or outpacing, and inability, and the need of heavy support for Zard to be effective makes it not broken.