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NU Stats - August 2013
- Thread starter skylight
- Start date
- Status
Charizard is a top-tier threat, and imo is Top 10 material. He rips through teams and the only down-side to him is there being no good spinners in NU that pair with Charizard well. The fact is his amazing Special Attack is just that; amazing and with a Choice Scarf he is one of the fastest Pokemon in NU. And I don't even like Scolipede that much due to his only utility being the spikes and speed his offenses aren't even that great. I think Charizard should definitely have more use than Scolipede, in fact, he should be higher!
I don't think Wartortle and Torkoal should be moving up at all. All the spinners suck, there isn't much of a reason to use a spinner (unless you're running Shedinja or something) because you can do with Taunt / Mold Breaker of you really wanted those off, which is much more beneficial for offensive teams. I hope all the spinners decrease in usage / don't rise because they're pretty momentum killing and without much reward.
Charizard is amazing. Fire is an excellent attacking type, and Zard sits on a great speed tier, beating out the vast majority of common threats. Apart from that, it's typing and ability are ripe for abuse- with only one switch into SR and two rounds of LO recoil (or just two switches), it reaches the point where it can 2HKO Regirock and up (which is to say, damn near the entire tier). It also helps that it can run a multitude of sets, each with different counters, and excels at opening holes in the opponents team for teammates to abuse.
As for the usage statistics, I can't deny that many ladderers seem to use Zard extremely poorly. The fact remains that, when utilized properly, it's an incredibly dangerous mon. Besides, you'll note that in absolute terms, the difference in percentage usage isn't actually that dramatic. It's just that the 1850 usage stats tend to be a lot more centralized- a mon with 9% usage, for instance, would be 13 on the standard ladder and 19 on the 1850s.
I agree with Zard usage. I actually think it should get more usage because the list of things that can stop all of it's sets are seriously low (and I don't think Grumpig or anything else with decent bulk and thick fat really does enjoy facing it that much either with the exception of like mantine I guess).
"Just take a quick look at the 1850 stats and that'll tell you a lot, as I always say."
Also you say look at the 1850 stats but yet Zard beats 9/10 of the top 10 depending on what set it's running/facing. If you're saying look there and see what Zard can destroy, you're totally right. Also p sure 1850s were trolled with Onix too so they aren't always the best judge of what's good and what isn't.
@ Scorp: stall teams need a spinner for the most part since they usually lack a fast taunter and generally the spinners fit well in stall teams. torkoal can spread around burns and force mobs out with yawn while wartortle can spread toxic and spread burns with scald and use haze if the team is concerned about mons setting up.
"Just take a quick look at the 1850 stats and that'll tell you a lot, as I always say."
Also you say look at the 1850 stats but yet Zard beats 9/10 of the top 10 depending on what set it's running/facing. If you're saying look there and see what Zard can destroy, you're totally right. Also p sure 1850s were trolled with Onix too so they aren't always the best judge of what's good and what isn't.
@ Scorp: stall teams need a spinner for the most part since they usually lack a fast taunter and generally the spinners fit well in stall teams. torkoal can spread around burns and force mobs out with yawn while wartortle can spread toxic and spread burns with scald and use haze if the team is concerned about mons setting up.
Charizard is damn near impossible to wall in NU and his speed tier is fantastic. He might die quickly, but while he's around he can do a ton of damage. Yes, he sucks outside of NU, but around here he's definitely a top-tier threat.
I should also mention that there aren't many good fire types in NU, so many teams don't really prepare for them outside of Stealth Rock. Zard is scary.
I should also mention that there aren't many good fire types in NU, so many teams don't really prepare for them outside of Stealth Rock. Zard is scary.
I just want to point out stall teams doesn't ALWAYS run a spinner. Some people use Alomomola+Audino to heal their teamates, which is, to be honest, more than enough to keep the team alive as long as you want if you play them correctly.
I'm not saying spinners have no place on stall teams, because they can actually be good, but you don't absolutely need one as long that you run a Poison-type to absorb Toxic Spikes and have a Wish user or two.
| 15 | Armaldo | 8.55030% | 29422 | 8.571% | 24845 | 8.973% |
Finally people realize that being Misdreavus bait does not make for a good defensive spinner. Or any spinner aside from rain.
| 166 | Gothorita | 0.52557% | 1441 | 0.420% | 1115 | 0.403% |
Really this low? A viable Shadow Tag revenge killer below Onix, Shedinja, Regigigas, Slaking, SPINDA, and PIKACHU.
| 96 | Gothorita | 1.29731% | 1441 | 0.420% | 1115 | 0.403% |
Still below terrible Onix and Regigigas. WTF?
Finally people realize that being Misdreavus bait does not make for a good defensive spinner. Or any spinner aside from rain.
| 166 | Gothorita | 0.52557% | 1441 | 0.420% | 1115 | 0.403% |
Really this low? A viable Shadow Tag revenge killer below Onix, Shedinja, Regigigas, Slaking, SPINDA, and PIKACHU.
| 96 | Gothorita | 1.29731% | 1441 | 0.420% | 1115 | 0.403% |
Still below terrible Onix and Regigigas. WTF?
idk man, Gothorita's incredibly underrated. To be very honest though, I like it that way. Gothorita can be straight up unbeatable in the right hands, trapping is way too good in nu (luckily Gothorita's the only good trapper in nu, I wouldn't bother with Wynaut or loltrapinch or lololdiglett). I faced one with Rest, Calm Mind, Psychic and Thunderbolt or something, which may sound ridiculously gimmicky but it can easily set up on something like Alomomola (which is easy enough to do considering how many Alomomola's there are) until it took enough damage, Rest the damage off, sleep for two turns in which the wall that is being set up on can't KO, then continue the CMing. It's really scary, luckily I haven't faced more than one of these but fuck.
I wouldn't say Gothorita is the only good trapper in NU. I've used Wynaut for a bit, it doesn't do too badly. The thing that differentiate the two is that while Goth is better at destroying and demolishing stall and bulkier teams, Wynaut can very quickly defeat choice-locked opponents that can't 2HKO it (and those that can't OHKO it if it switches in to revenge). The best thing about this is that while Wynaut is a one-time use thing, it does its job very effectively and can remove a roadblock to the team single-handedly, as long as it doesn't get OHKOed. At the same time, it also has Encore and Tickle, and while these moves seem worthless, Encore actually allows Wynaut to lock walls into useless moves, ESPECIALLY Audino and Musharna. This grants the team lots of set up opportunities. I pair it up with Gorebyss, and Wynaut really helps to remove things like Altaria from the match for Gorebyss, while occasionally giving it setup opportunities with Encore. At the same time, Tickle, when used with Encore, lets Wynaut weaken walls and when paired up with a Pursuit user like Skuntank, and it really helps in removing certain physical and special walls from the match. So yeah, I'm saying that Wynaut isn't really that bad at all, just faces loads of competition from Gothorita who can trap more times in a match.
And yes. Gothorita is a beast, I'm surprised it's so darn low because literally every physical attacker wouldn't mind Goth removing a wall for it.
And yes. Gothorita is a beast, I'm surprised it's so darn low because literally every physical attacker wouldn't mind Goth removing a wall for it.
That are some of previous statistics about gorebyss:
January | 25 | Gorebyss | 6.75258% | 8033 | 6.291% | 6297 | 6.032%
......
May | 34 | Gorebyss | 5.61640% | 10355 | 5.202% | 7852 | 4.862% |
June | 34 | Gorebyss | 5.59149% | 13050 | 4.990% | 10057 | 4.756% |
July | 34 | Gorebyss | 5.59149% | 13050 | 4.990% | 10057 | 4.756% |
August | 3 | Gorebyss | 11.66880% | 38387 | 11.183% | 29198 | 10.545% |
There was a nearly double usage increase and we can't ignore that. I personally always used it positively for its major power on rain or in a shell pass.
The rain percentuage is approximately an half than gorebyss' usage, so that means that is also used in weatherless. I'm sure that it is a pokemon too much but it can be really destructive.
January | 25 | Gorebyss | 6.75258% | 8033 | 6.291% | 6297 | 6.032%
......
May | 34 | Gorebyss | 5.61640% | 10355 | 5.202% | 7852 | 4.862% |
June | 34 | Gorebyss | 5.59149% | 13050 | 4.990% | 10057 | 4.756% |
July | 34 | Gorebyss | 5.59149% | 13050 | 4.990% | 10057 | 4.756% |
August | 3 | Gorebyss | 11.66880% | 38387 | 11.183% | 29198 | 10.545% |
There was a nearly double usage increase and we can't ignore that. I personally always used it positively for its major power on rain or in a shell pass.
The rain percentuage is approximately an half than gorebyss' usage, so that means that is also used in weatherless. I'm sure that it is a pokemon too much but it can be really destructive.
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Don't forget that Baton Pass + Shell smash is banned in NU. I don't understand what gorebyss usage increased like that, for sure it's quite a good pokemon, but i see that only 10% Gorebyss has substitute, and i deduce only 10% has Signal Beam, so Gorebyss is really easy too wall with things like jynx (yeah, it's a good jynx switch in, there's not very much mons that can do this).
Speaking of jynx, i just saw that :
| Choice Scarf 31.679% |
| Leftovers 30.191% |
| Life Orb 24.466% |
1/3 Jynx is scarf :O
Oh and yeah,
| 26 | Mandibuzz | 7.14556% | 20378 | 5.937% | 16575 | 5.986% |
Thank you guys, this thing is horrible to kill, it just beats 80% of the actual metagame, even some special mons without special defense investment. I really don't want to imagine a metagame with Mandibuzz at #1...
Otherway, i've nothing special to say, bar i hope next month armaldo usage decrease again...
Until you realize Mandibuzz fails to wall NU's Psychic-types that aren't Musharna. Jynx has STAB Ice Beam, whereas Gardevoir and Beheeyem have their Thunderbolts.
Gardevoir easily defeats Mandibuzz if it attempts to switch in since offensive Garde outspeeds, while Beheeyem can set up Nasty Plot as it switches in, and then proceed to OHKO it with a single T-Bolt, outstalling Roost if Mandibuzz lets it come to that.
Gardevoir easily defeats Mandibuzz if it attempts to switch in since offensive Garde outspeeds, while Beheeyem can set up Nasty Plot as it switches in, and then proceed to OHKO it with a single T-Bolt, outstalling Roost if Mandibuzz lets it come to that.
Except when you realize that walling Musharna is actually a big deal, that Gardevoir runs Signal Beam and Focus Blast over Thunderbolt, and that Mandibuzz doesn't JUST wall Psychic-types. It's just so bulky that neutral hits even from certain uninvested Pokemon can't even 3HKO it. I can name things like Offensive Seismitoad, Golurk, Serperior, etc. that cannot 2HKO Mandibuzz. Mandibuzz also shits on stall thanks to Taunt, and doesn't do too badly against offensive teams either due to its bulk + Foul Play
I dunno about you, but I run T-Bolt on basically every Gardevoir I use. Blasting through Alomomola and Mandibuzz is a handy utility. As for those others, well, the Golurk Speed Creep continues. The most physically defensive possible Mandibuzz can be 2HKO'd by Jolly CB Golurk's Ice Punch or Stone Edge before rocks, and rocks on any spread guarantees it. Mandibuzz has to run a significant amount of speed to beat that, and that compromises its bulk. A lot of folks on the ladder won't do that, so it means you get free Mandibuzz kills. In fact, even 252 HP/124+ Def Mandibuzz has a chance to be OHKO'd after rocks Which, by the way, leaves only enough EVs left to speed tie at best. :p As far as I know, going Jolly doesn't lose any notable KOs.
Mandibuzz isn't just great because it beats some psychic types. If I had a problem with psychic types, I'd run Skuntank which is a catch all counter to almost every psychic type in the tier. Mandibuzz is most effective as a stall breaker and generally being an annoying prick that doesn't die ever.
Agree with Charizard being very good. 3 attacks + Roost is great. You don't even need a spinner, and since spinners in NU are awful, it's often a waste of a teamslot to try and fit one on.
Thanks for correction, I forgot that.
Adamant Golurk:
Also...
252 Atk Choice Band Golurk Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 124+ Def Mandibuzz: 246-290 (58.15 - 68.55%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
No it doesn't, this Mandibuzz can still come in, survive any attack, then proceed to Roost while predicting a switch/weaken Ice Punch or Foul Play off the bat.
And then there's this...
252 Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 198-234 (46.8 - 55.31%) -- 13.28% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 218-258 (51.53 - 60.99%) -- 93.36% chance to 2HKO
Jolly Golurk can miss out on 2HKOing fully invested Mandibuzz, which isn't common but still exists due to the predetermined spread for Mandibuzz on Showdown (and likely PO as well).
Jolly Golurk:
Golurk, as a wallbreaker, should aim for as much power as possible. While Jolly Golurk has an advantage over the standard 112 Speed Mandibuzz, it loses out on certain 2HKOes or OHKOes on bulky pokemon, making it more reliant on hazards to net kills, which shouldn't be the case for a wallbreaker. Outspeeding one pokemon and miss out on O/2HKOing several others doesn't seem very worth it to me, since killing things after just SR is how CB Golurk rolls.
Also...
252 Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 124+ Def Mandibuzz: 222-262 (52.48 - 61.93%) -- 97.66% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Golurk Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 124+ Def Mandibuzz: 246-290 (58.15 - 68.55%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
No it doesn't, this Mandibuzz can still come in, survive any attack, then proceed to Roost while predicting a switch/weaken Ice Punch or Foul Play off the bat.
And then there's this...
252 Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 198-234 (46.8 - 55.31%) -- 13.28% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Golurk Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 218-258 (51.53 - 60.99%) -- 93.36% chance to 2HKO
Jolly Golurk can miss out on 2HKOing fully invested Mandibuzz, which isn't common but still exists due to the predetermined spread for Mandibuzz on Showdown (and likely PO as well).
The things I notice. Mightyena is actually looking both viable and used. I feel this is actually good for the metagame. Absol was a great balancing force and with the rise of Gory, the extra priority is awesome. I'm wondering if SpD rose will rise in usage to try and curb the gory stomping. The meta is looking ridiculously offensive at the moment, the top three defensive mons are all (momentum) pivots for offensive teams. Mola passing wishes, Mushy slow passing and Eel tank turning.
Spinning feels so futile at the moment. And with the offensive pressure present in the meta I think that it's a good thing. The two hardest and fast special attackers in the tier are both still high in usage despite the lack of reliable spinning.
Spinning feels so futile at the moment. And with the offensive pressure present in the meta I think that it's a good thing. The two hardest and fast special attackers in the tier are both still high in usage despite the lack of reliable spinning.
I'd just like to expand a bit on why Gothorita doesn't do quite as well as it should in NU.
Now Gothy's main purpose is to remove walls, right? It comes in and sits there racking up CM boosts + resting off damage until it's ready to remove the threat, clearing a path for your sweepers to go to town.
Just so. Now let's take a look at the walls Gothy can reasonably expect to trap and kill in NU, assuming a moveset of Psychic, HP Ground, CM and Rest with the standard bulky spread:
-Alomomola
-Weezing
-Regice
-Mantine
-Gardevoir (offensive/trick choice sets are things to be careful of; scout first)
-Vileplume
-Miltank
-Roselia
-Audino
-Wartortle (haze is uncommon, but an issue)
-Tangela (be very wary of knock off/leech seed variants as they will usually beat you with any prior damage)
If it comes in on any of these Pokémon, it can generally set up with impunity and remove the wall.
And here is the list of walls that we are unable to trap due to the wall commonly carrying a phazing/pivot move:
-Musharna (baton pass)
-Lickilicky (dragon tail)
-Probopass (volt switch)
-Bastiodon (roar)
-Golbat (u-turn, taunt)
-Meganium (dragon tail)
-Lairon (it sets rocks, goes to sturdy and custap endeavors you, GG)
I'm a lot more concerned with the threats in the second list than I am in the first. They have standard sets which allow them to bypass the trap mechanic and come back later to continue walling your offense.
My point is that it's a trapper that can't trap a few of the most prominent defensive threats in NU, thereby rendering it inconsistent and causing low usage. It's also dead weight against hyper/bulky offense that often forego dedicated walls
Now Gothy's main purpose is to remove walls, right? It comes in and sits there racking up CM boosts + resting off damage until it's ready to remove the threat, clearing a path for your sweepers to go to town.
Just so. Now let's take a look at the walls Gothy can reasonably expect to trap and kill in NU, assuming a moveset of Psychic, HP Ground, CM and Rest with the standard bulky spread:
-Alomomola
-Weezing
-Regice
-Mantine
-Gardevoir (offensive/trick choice sets are things to be careful of; scout first)
-Vileplume
-Miltank
-Roselia
-Audino
-Wartortle (haze is uncommon, but an issue)
-Tangela (be very wary of knock off/leech seed variants as they will usually beat you with any prior damage)
If it comes in on any of these Pokémon, it can generally set up with impunity and remove the wall.
And here is the list of walls that we are unable to trap due to the wall commonly carrying a phazing/pivot move:
-Musharna (baton pass)
-Lickilicky (dragon tail)
-Probopass (volt switch)
-Bastiodon (roar)
-Golbat (u-turn, taunt)
-Meganium (dragon tail)
-Lairon (it sets rocks, goes to sturdy and custap endeavors you, GG)
I'm a lot more concerned with the threats in the second list than I am in the first. They have standard sets which allow them to bypass the trap mechanic and come back later to continue walling your offense.
My point is that it's a trapper that can't trap a few of the most prominent defensive threats in NU, thereby rendering it inconsistent and causing low usage. It's also dead weight against hyper/bulky offense that often forego dedicated walls
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@ the Mandibuzz thing: It doesn't matter. Golurk can't switch into Mandibuzz at all because Foul Play OHKOs it. It's not going to get the chance to 2HKO if it switches in, and Golurk by far isn't the best thing to take on Mandibuzz, so I'm not sure why it's even being discussed. Jynx also can't switch into Mandibuzz if SR is up (actually it can't at all because Mandibuzz lives assuming SR isn't up on its side).
Oh and since we are in the stats thread and not the NP thread @ the Gardevoir and Thunderbolt point:
| Psychic 91.274% | | Thunderbolt 48.025% | | Shadow Ball 43.618% | | Focus Blast 43.031% | | Calm Mind 25.663% | | Signal Beam 19.883% |
Anyway yes Mandibuzz is really good in a variety of teams and definitely should have higher usage than where it's at honestly. It's good at Taunting, stalling, phazing... without wearing it down with SR and Toxic it can become a problem to take down despite all that's been mentioned.
Oh and since we are in the stats thread and not the NP thread @ the Gardevoir and Thunderbolt point:
| Psychic 91.274% | | Thunderbolt 48.025% | | Shadow Ball 43.618% | | Focus Blast 43.031% | | Calm Mind 25.663% | | Signal Beam 19.883% |
Anyway yes Mandibuzz is really good in a variety of teams and definitely should have higher usage than where it's at honestly. It's good at Taunting, stalling, phazing... without wearing it down with SR and Toxic it can become a problem to take down despite all that's been mentioned.
@skylight We're not talking about Golurk switching into Mandi (because that would be suicidal), we were talking about Mandi switching into Golurk. Infernis was talking about how the speedcreeping Jolly CB Golurks can eliminate standard Mandi as a solid check; I was talking about how doing so causes its wallbreaking to suffer as a result, and that Jolly Golurks usually won't even 2HKO fully invested Mandi.
Alas, I meant 124 Def. It doesn't really matter though because such a spread is used very little.
I think we just have a difference in opinion on how we design our EV spreads. Personally, I prefer to design my sets so that they beat specific things instead of simply hitting as hard 'in general' as possible. It still blows up Musharna and Exeggutor (and 2HKO's defensive Tangela with hazards!) and most offensive Pokemon in general pretty darn well, but this Golurk spread beats Mandibuzz too, which is something pretty special considering how often people will switch a Mandibuzz into Golurk. I'm not saying it's a counter, but it's a pretty good check if ones' other answers to Mandibuzz have failed. Since this is the stats thread, let's check out some stats.
Code:
| Impish: 252/4/252/0/0/0 16.908% |
| Bold: 248/0/148/0/0/112 13.767% |
| Bold: 252/0/252/0/4/0 3.770% |
| Careful: 244/0/168/0/88/8 2.968% |
| Impish: 252/0/252/0/0/4 2.663% |
| Impish: 248/0/148/0/0/112 2.505% |I just think it's silly that people keep bringing up that Mandibuzz is always a surefire counter to Golurk when my Golurk has dozens and dozens of direct Mandibuzz KOs notched into its belt, probably more than any other Pokemon on the teams I use it on. It's entirely possible that people could just change their Mandibuzz a little and this wouldn't work anymore, but at the moment it's pretty solid on the ladder.
I find this argument very dubious, as Adamant Golurk can also outspeed 0 Spe Mandibuzz (admittedly, if Adamant Golurk runs over 200 Speed EVs, or just go full 252 Speed), blowing Jolly Golurk's advantage out of the water as it still keeps its wallbreaking potential intact. Jolly Golurk is only more effective against Mandibuzz that run enough speed for Adamant but not for Jolly, and while that range is the standard, it's not the most common as you said.
Let's be honest, nothing in the tier is really safe from a 2HKO from Adamant CB Golurk if SR is down. Mandibuzz, like other counters such as Alomo and Tangela, only fears select moves from a CB set and can switch into its other moves, but Mandi's advantage is that it outspeeds most variants and OHKOes, something few counters can claim to do. This does make Mandi more of an offensive counter, but is still a counter as opposed to a check like Samurott or Jynx.
I do understand where you're getting at: not being made a liability against one of its most common switch-ins is (usually) a step in the right direction (albeit exposing yourself to a whole lot more defensive pokemon), I'm just not sure I like how you go about doing this. The fact that you're Choice-locked means you still have to predict her switch-in with the correct move or you're screwed regardless, meaning your situation isn't much better off than the standard Adamant Golurk. I calced Life Orb and honestly it didn't make an ounce of difference with Choice Band: Basically if Golurk didn't go for Ice Punch first as Mandi switches into SR, it's still boned, but if it did go for Ice Punch on the switch-in, it can 2HKO Mandi. Since Jolly Golurk's wallbreaking potential has been impaired anyway, I'd say give LO a go so that Mandi won't force you to lock yourself into Ice Punch and can make use of its good coverage. Alternatively there's Expert Belt to bluff a CB set, but your bluff would have to be pretty convincing seeing as Jolly unboosted Golurk has an obvious power difference with Adamant CB Golurk.
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