NU Stage 5 - Cinccino Suspect Discussion

[jake]

Hey there.

Cinccino has been selected as a suspect for Stage 5. Everyone is welcome to participate in discussion and elaborate on your opinion of Cinccino in the current metagame, and whether or not it is ban-worthy. Please justify all of your arguments with statistical proof if it is possible (here's a link to a damage calculator if you need one, and here's a link to last month's stats if you need them as well). Senate members and rotating council members are expected to post and participate etc.

While this is a debate and you are trying to convince the people voting that Cinccino is / isn't broken, please remain civil and have respect for everyone else posting their thoughts. I will not hesitate to edit / delete posts that are rude or insulting to other members. I will also not hesitate to delete inane or flat-out stupid posts, either (ie. "Cinccino dies to any hit! It's definitely not broken!"). I really would have wished this didn't have to be said, but if you don't have experience in NU, don't post here either...

Anyway, this thread will be closed in a few days and the Senate and council members will send in their votes. Argue your hearts out.

 

[ChaoticaMortis]

Probably getting ninja'd due to my long post, but whatever.

My previous post on Cinccino:

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Cinccino has been pretty fun to abuse lately; it's tied with Sneasel, Floatzel, and Persian for 5th fastest Pokemon in NU and it can work as a cleaner, revenge killer, or even a semi-decent wall breaker. Its base 95 Attack stat has provided just enough power to make Cinccino extremely threatening with a Life Orb set. Its base 115 allows it to outspeed and KO even the weather sweepers if it is equipped with a Choice Scarf. It has (in my opinion) been one of the sole reasons for the virtual disappearance of Golem from our metagame. Skill Link provides it with three moves that all sport a base power of 125. If that's not enough, Cinccy can U-Turn out of almost any situation that it might face trouble in. If this thing gets a super effective hit, that usually means it gets the KO.
Sounds perfectly ban-worthy when you don't think of all the negatives, doesn't it? The problems faced by Cinccino are many, and it can't really do anything about them.
First and foremost, Life Orb recoil is a bitch. In all my time playing NU, I have never used a Pokemon that is hampered by its item as much as Cinccino is. Of course, this is also due to the fact that you're constantly having to switch around with Cinccino, causing you to take wasted recoil on attacks that hit switch-ins who resist your moves as well as Stealth Rock damage (Spikes aren't as common, but they'll fuck you up pretty bad, too).
Second, fuck priority. As frustrating as it already is to have to constantly switch this little thing in and out of battle, priority makes it so much worse. Virtually every priority in the tier will do about 40% to Cinccino. 40% might as well be all of its usable health considering all the other passive damage Cinccy is going to be taking.
Cinccino's LO set is the only thing even close to being suspected, as its other sets are a bit "meh." Choice Band suffers due to locking Cinccino into a single attack, but at least it doesn't lose all of its HP within three turns. It's definitely powerful, but Life Orb is ultimately more useful. Choice Scarf is Cinccino's second best set, and functions as an effective revenge killer, that's all it's going to do for you though.
So yeah, this thing is great, and can definitely clean up against a team that foolishly came unprepared for it, but the cons to it definitely balance out the pros.

Okay, I'm going to make this short and sweet as I've already posted quite a bit about Cinccino in the original suspect discussion thread.

Cinccino is the worst Pokemon out of the three that have been selected as suspects. It is vulnerable to all three entry hazards and must constantly switch in and out. Each of its sets have hard counters (Probopass being the absolute best, especially when equipped with a Rocky Helmet), and the Life Orb set is the only one that can reliably beat some of the counters to the other two options. All three of its main sets have huge issues:

• Choice Band: Many users have claimed this to be Cinccino's 100% broken set, which is definitely arguable. CB hits very hard and doesn't suffer recoil after each attack. The problem that Cinccino faces is that even with a Choice Band it cannot reliably damage some of the Pokemon that counter the other sets. Another problem is that once Cinccino is locked into an attack it can easily be played around. Bullet Seed? Hello Amoonguss. Tail Slap? What's going on Golurk? Rock Blast? How's it hanging Probopass? There's also the issue of priority. Priority doesn't negate the strengths of this set as much as it does to the other two, but Cinccino still takes hits like a Magikarp on a hunger strike.
  
  
• Choice Scarf: This set is great for revenge killing, and that's about the only good thing it does. The Choice lock hurts this variant of Cinccino much more than it does for CB, as Scarfcino is somewhat easy to predict and wall. Another factor to be taken into consideration is priority, as it completely negates the usefulness of this set.
  
  
• Life Orb: In my opinion, this is Cinccino's best set, and probably the reason it's being suspected. Life Orb hits almost as hard as Choice Band and has the ability to switch attacks up, causing Cinccino's list of counters to fall dramatically. This set also can easily clean up against a weakened team, which is why it's important to keep your Cinccino The only problem that this set faces is the passive damage that constantly stacks up against it. As stated earlier, Cinccino is constantly having to switch in and out of battle, which forces it to take entry hazard damage. Entry hazards + LO recoil = WHERE THE FUCK DID MY HP GO?!? That's a problem I've constantly had to face when using Cinccino, and is one of the main reasons I find it to be completely fine in NU. Returning to my earlier points on priority attacks, this variant of Cinccino hates priority the most as it can't afford to be taking any hits.

So there you go, a small bit of my thoughts on Cinccino. Do not ban this thing.

EDIT: WOOHOO, DIDN'T GET NINJA'D!

 

[watashi]

Cinccino is often compared to Zangoose as a physical sweeper that cannot be walled by Rock-types. This is a misconception created by the fact that they both received huge boosts at around the same time. Cinccino is completely countered by Steel-types unless it chooses to run the situational Aqua Tail or Wake-Up Slap. It lacks a way to dodge Sucker Punches, which are the most common form of priority in the tier. It lacks the raw power to break through Tangela and Misdreavus, both of which are commonly seen on defensive teams. Against offensive teams, smart switching can often be the end of Cinccino. The metagame has adapted to Cinccino quite well, so it should not be banned.

 

[uxsee]

Cincinno, while being a great physical attacker that can hit most pokemon for good neutral damage has way too many counters in NU. Amoongus, Alomomola, Bastiodon, Klang (so pro), and so many more. If you take a pokemon with a relatively high hp and def stat (im looking at u garbodor and throh) and give it a rocky helmet and full def investment, u've basically beaten it on the switch. It is also very weak to hazards and priority, which are all a staple in the metagame right now. Cincinno should not be banned.

 

[Django]

Cinccino is undoubtably an incredibly big threat in NU, and something that every decent team has to be able to deal with. It was good before it got Skill Link, but now it has a reliable 125 base power move its power level has shot way up. Despite this, Cinccino has a number of solid counters. Probopass, Bastiodon, and even Klang have all become reliable counters, especially now considering virtually 0 Cinccino run Wake-Up-Slap or Aqua Tail. In addition to this, any Choiced set can easily be checked with a combination of Pokemon. Golurk + Amoonguss completely shuts it down (Amoonguss as an initial switch in, then straight to Golurk if they did use Tail Slap). Regirock + Amoonguss, hell Regirock and anything that resists Grass. Other Rock-types like Carracosta and Relicanth also do a great job at this. On top of this, Rocky Helmet on any of these Pokemon will basically force Cinccino to kill itself when it uses Tail Slap. So as you can see, there are a number of ways to efectively deal with Cinccino.

The thing I am slightly unsure about however, is are these options diverse enough and large enough in number? Similarly, is the power of Cinccino too much of a strain on teambuilding to be considered balanced? Carrying a Normal resist in NU is absolutely essential, and Cinccino is one of the main contributors to this (on top of Braviary, Swellow and Zangoose). However, is being forced to do so an unnesscessary restraint on teambuilding? In my opinion no, primarily because there are so many ways to do so. Carracosta, Relicanth, Golem, Regirock, any Steel-type and a plethora of Ghost-types can do this role, and just carrying on of those on your team you have checked Cinccino. Any decent team will also have a Pokemon that is capable of taking coverage moves from Cinccino, not to mention Rock Blast and Bullet Seed are free switchins for a number of dangerous NU Pokemon.

All in all, Cinccino seems balanced to me, primarily because NU is already built around countering Normal- and Flying-types. I don't think this mentality is going to change anytime soon (unless we somehow end up banning Braviary and Swellow), so Cinccino fits well in NU.

 

[Fun With Knives]

As powerful as it is, Cinccino is still woefully frail, and is still not the fastest. It's outdone by any priority move, and outrun by Zebstrika and Ninjask. Any Steel-Type shuts it down unless it has Wake-Up Slap, and paralysis will ruin it.

Looking at all of the other walls in the tier, Cinccino doesn't really 'force' a Steel-Type. While all of its 'best' counters are Steel-types, plenty of opponents can take it out. Bar crits, Cinccino cannot OHKO Kangaskhan, Amoonguss, Serperior, or Armaldo.

 

[Audiosurfer]

As others have said, Cinccino is incredibly frail, and there are many ways to be able to counter it. Priority will kill it. Steel types take its hits well. Putting Rocky Helmet on something will cause it to take huge amounts of damage. Anything that outspeeds it and can hit with a decently powered attack will probably kill it (easier said than done as it's pretty fast, but still). Hazards and Life Orb recoil already take their toll, making it easy to take out with any one of the aforementioned methods. The Choice sets don't suffer recoil but are incredibly easy to play around. As Django said, many of the things that are used to counter Cinccino are already on teams to counter other high-powered threats, so Cinccino isn't overcentralizing. All in all, I'd say Cinccino should not be banned.

 

[Raseri]

I'm not completely sold that Cinccino isn't broken. Personally when I use Cinccino I find myself spamming U-turn early in the game, continually exposing its counters to hazards damage. As none of the hard counters (probopass / bastiodon / klang) have any form of recovery. Cinccino is very frail and susceptible to priority, which is the best reason to believe that it isn't broken. But a few hard counters that have very middling presence, klang withstanding, isn't enough to say it isn't to much. Also, we are seriously running Rocky Helmet on walls. Just to beat Cinccino, that is what makes me feel uneasy. Every time I see something that isn't Amoonguss holding one I feel sad. Since those walls lose a lot of defensive presence without leftovers. Losing 12% per switchin is pretty bad. Even 6% that Probopass loses adds up, since it is needed to check a lot of things. It makes chip damage that much more important. Even though I am leaning towards not banning it as of now, we still have to consider that it is the second fastest, unboosted Pokemon, with 3 moves of 125 BP with sub breaking abilities, that between the three of them are only resisted by Wormadam-S and Klang in NU. It also has U-turn to keep momentum up. Being a perfect partner for Golurk makes Cinccino even more threatening, since nearly every Cinccino check hates Golurk :)

 

[ChaoticaMortis]

Constantly using U-Turn like that stacks Life Orb and hazards damage on your own Cinccino, which makes it even easier to revenge or kill with priority than it already is. Also, there doesn't really have to be a Pokemon that resists all three of its attacks for it to not be broken. Is there a single Pokemon that resists all of Emboar's attacks? Absol?

 

[jake]

Everything important that needed to have been said has already been said, so I'm mostly posting as a formality and to give my opinion on Cinccino.

Despite now having access to a 125 BP STAB move with 85 acc and two 125 BP coverage moves with better accuracy than the former, Cinccino still has several reliable checks and even a few counters. Probopass, Bastiodon, Mawile, and Klang are all basically 100% counters, resisting everything that Cincy can throw at it and then do whatever they want in return. Tangela and Misdreavus also do incredibly well against it, despite the former not even carrying a resistance to Tail Slap. Any Pokemon with remotely good defenses (thinking of stuff like Eelektross, Miltank, Musharna, Lickilicky... hell even Emboar with a little bit of HP investment) can at least tank a neutral hit from Cinccino and KO in return. Its 75 / 60 / 60 defenses leave it absolutely devastated by priority (Absol's Sucker Punch KOes after SR or 1 round of LO recoil 100% of the time) and faster Pokemon (Swellow, Choice Scarf users). Rocky Helmet on something like Amoonguss forces Cinccino to basically commit suicide to even dent it. The only thing that could even be questioned is the fact that it can U-turn out of many of its counters and use its teammates (namely Golurk, as Raseri mentioned) to put pressure on the opposing team, but that could also be argued to be simply playing well and having effective teambuilding. Swellow and Braviary could always do something similar, but we've never suspected it solely on the fact that it can U-turn out of its counters because that doesn't make it broken.

All in all, Cinccino seems balanced to me, primarily because NU is already built around countering Normal- and Flying-types. I don't think this mentality is going to change anytime soon (unless we somehow end up banning Braviary and Swellow), so Cinccino fits well in NU.

 

[CrashinBoomBang]

Yeah, I agree with most of the people who have posted before me, Cinccino is not broken from what I have gathered. It is incredibly hard to switch in without letting something die first, and it needs a boosting item to do any kind of damage; and even then, after all those conditions are met, it's still underwhelming and fails to do significant damage to teams that are somewhat prepared for most Normal-types in the tier (Zangoose, Braviary, etc). Not to mention that it has to predict perfectly; Zangoose and Braviary can both use their STAB attacks a lot more freely thanks to huge attack stats to back them up.

Its coverage is also worse than what people make it out to be unless you're running the - gimmicky at best - Wake-Up Slap or Aqua Tail. Not being able to significantly hurt Steel-types, which are incredibly common right now (and even without Cinccino, most of them are still excellent Pokemon) is a huge blow and puts it behind other Normal-types such as the aforementioned Braviary and Zangoose in that regard. Cinccino has an excellent speed stat as well as U-turn to kind of balance it out, but it just isn't enough to make it broken by any means; the combination of its frailty and hence the difficulty of getting it in as well as its lack of power against a broad range of targets (and having to predict perfectly, but that's player-based and not really Pokemon-based) just doesn't break it for me.

On the topic of Rocky Helmet: Yes, I for example added Rocky Helmet to my Regirock to give me an extra Cinccino check, but it's also useful against a lot of other common Pokemon such as Swellow and Zangoose, both of which really hate residual damage. I would not mind going back to Leftovers though, since Cinccino is a non-issue for the most part, but Rocky Helmet is also extremely useful without Cinccino around so it's definitely a viable option on a lot of Pokemon; Cinccino just makes people use it more, but it's a fantastic item regardless. I do not believe Cinccino influences that part of the metagame in an extremely negative way; it's just another fast and decently powerful sweeper in todays metagame for me. No Ban.

 

[jake]

Votes will be held shortly.