Metagame NP: ZU Stage 4 - More is Enough - Gallade and Turtonator Banned @37

[risin_glory]

Ok the meta oppose risin is back and as expected I am DNB for both eggy and vika. (I know this is not the way this post should normally go but its gonna be a very long post trying to explain why both these mons are okay here and so I told my view in the starting itself, so u don't need to search for it over the long paras.

Lets see why this mon with near to no switchins is still not banwrothy as per me.

V
252+ SpA Accelgor Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 338-402 (102.1 - 121.4%) {this calc was for throat spray set, otherwise plin252 spa has 62.5% chance to ohko and 0 spa does 74.3 to 87.6% meaning egg killed one at most and died.}

V
252 Atk Life Orb Cinccino Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 639-765 (193 - 231.1%)

V
252 Atk Life Orb Cinccino Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 639-765 (193 - 231.1%)

V
252 Atk Life Orb Lycanroc Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 224-265 (67.6 - 80%) {once again, 1 for 1}

V
252 Atk Froslass Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 660-792 (199.3 - 239.2%)

V
252 Atk Choice Band Liepard Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 260-306 (78.5 - 92.4%)
252 Atk Choice Band Liepard U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 202-238 (61 - 71.9%)
Pls don't kill me for baned liepard. It seems there was this set named PU wallbreaker in showdown calc so I checked it out.

V
0 SpA Cryogonal Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 372-436 (112.3 - 131.7%)

V
252 Atk Rapidash Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 187-222 (56.4 - 67%) {again, 1 for 1 but wait! generaly during safe entry of eggy rap would be on +2 with sd}

V
252 Atk Life Orb Rapidash-Galar Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 367-432 (110.8 - 130.5%)

V
252 SpA Kadabra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 208-246 (62.8 - 74.3%) {with sash magic guard, it beats it or with lo it nearly kos it, so either eggy dies, or 1 for 1}

V
252 SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 192+ SpD Miltank: 297-351 (75.3 - 89%) {so between spa drop, milk drink, toxic and body slam, overtime miltank beats eggy}

V
Regigigas @ Leftovers
Careful Nature
Ability: Slow Start
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
- Body Slam
- Protect
- Substitute
- Toxic
this is the stall set of gigas.
252 SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Regigigas: 210-247 (49.5 - 58.2%)
less efficiently than miltank, but still over time this set basically beats eggy.

V (small)
252 Atk Choice Band Gourgeist-Small Poltergeist (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 231-273 (69.7 - 82.4%) {eggy goes 1 for 1}

V
252 SpA Life Orb Basculin Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 468-551 (141.3 - 166.4%)

V (scarf)
252+ Atk Electivire Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 396-468 (119.6 - 141.3%)

V
252 Atk Life Orb Leafeon X-Scissor vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 234-276 (70.6 - 83.3%) {eggy goes 1 for 1}

V (a random neutral from both ends vally)
252 Atk Silvally Multi-Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 181-214 (54.6 - 64.6%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Silvally: 322-381 (97.2 - 115.1%)
So, either it goes 1 for 1, or u run the small spd investment vally which basically beats eggy.

V
(screens)
252 SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Uxie through Light Screen: 123-145 (34.7 - 40.9%)
4 SpA Uxie Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 97-115 (29.3 - 34.7%)
(rocks)
252 SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Uxie: 186-219 (52.5 - 61.8%)
And then there are the twave yawn and memento sets which well are just there felt like mentioning ntg special about them for this respect ig.

V
252 Atk Unfezant Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 410-486 (123.8 - 146.8%)

V
252 Atk Silk Scarf Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 217-256 (65.5 - 77.3%) {1 for 1}

V
0 SpA Orbeetle Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 204-242 (61.6 - 73.1%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Orbeetle: 264-312 (81.4 - 96.2%)
Orbeetle @ Heavy-duty boots/leftovers
Timid Nature
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Calm Mind
- Recover
- Psychic
- Bug Buzz

V
0 SpA Golbat Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 144-170 (43.5 - 51.3%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 68+ SpD Eviolite Golbat: 219-258 (61.8 - 72.8%)
Now golbat has stuff like bb/air slash/toxic/super fang/roost etc so eggy eventually loses.

V
252 SpA Rotom-Fan Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 270-318 (81.5 - 96%) {1 for 1}

V
252 SpA Rotom-Frost Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 780-924 (235.6 - 279.1%)

V
0 SpA Cramorant Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 260-308 (78.5 - 93%) {1 for 1}

V
252 SpA Golduck Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 400-472 (120.8 - 142.5%)

V
252 Atk Pinsir X-Scissor vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 290-344 (87.6 - 103.9%)

V
No need for calcs, just a straight dbond destruction.

V (sturdy)
252 Atk Sawk Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 219-258 (66.1 - 77.9%)

V
252 Atk Choice Band Gourgeist Poltergeist (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 240-283 (72.5 - 85.4%) {1 for 1}

V (speed creep)
0 SpA Skuntank Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 186-218 (56.1 - 65.8%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Skuntank: 306-360 (74.6 - 87.8%)

V
252 SpA Choice Specs Magmortar Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 331-390 (100 - 117.8%)
252 SpA Magmortar Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 220-261 (66.4 - 78.8%)

V
252 Atk Life Orb Lycanroc-Midnight Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 224-265 (67.6 - 80%) {normally it might already have set sd during switch in)

V
0 SpA Altaria Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 222-264 (67 - 79.7%)
0 SpA Altaria Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 264-312 (79.7 - 94.2%)

V
252 SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Draco Meteor vs. 12 HP / 0 SpD Drifblim: 507-597 (114.1 - 134.4%)
244+ SpA Drifblim Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 141-166 (42.5 - 50.1%)
Drifblim @ Sitrus Berry
Modest Nature
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 12 HP / 244 SpA / 252 Spe
- Calm Mind
- Substitute
- Shadow Ball
- Thunderbolt
with this set and the clacs, blim very easily sets up on eggy and beats it.

V
252 Atk Life Orb Gallade Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 285-335 (86.1 - 101.2%)

V
252 Atk Choice Band Thwackey U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 198-234 (59.8 - 70.6%)
Here an easy switchin on clefairy or something is possible cuz in order to beat thwackey, eggy needs to use either dmeteor or flamethrower.

V
252+ Atk Iron Fist Hitmonchan Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 160-189 (48.3 - 57%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Leaf Storm vs. 44 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Hitmonchan: 190-225 (75.3 - 89.2%)
Hitmonchan @ Assault Vest
Adamant Nature
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 44 HP / 252 Atk / 212 Spe
- Rapid Spin
- Drain Punch
- Throat Chop
- Bullet Punch
if u have ice punch over throat chop, u basially ohko eggy.

V (speed creep)
252+ Atk Garbodor Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 398-470 (120.2 - 141.9%)

V (agility set)
252+ Atk Life Orb Kingler X-Scissor vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 286-338 (86.4 - 102.1%)

V
252 SpA Butterfree Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 354-416 (106.9 - 125.6%)

V
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Flapple U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 350-412 (105.7 - 124.4%)

V
252 SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 499-593 (150.7 - 179.1%)

V
252 Atk Choice Band Poliwrath Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 452-536 (136.5 - 161.9%)

V
252+ Atk Centiskorch Leech Life vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 302-356 (91.2 - 107.5%)

V
252 SpA Frosmoth Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 724-856 (218.7 - 258.6%)

V
252 SpA Life Orb Alcremie Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 382-452 (115.4 - 136.5%)

V (offensive)
252+ SpA Lapras Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 472-564 (142.5 - 170.3%)

V
252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Clawitzer Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 494-582 (149.2 - 175.8%)


and so on.... (basically I am now tired of calcing all this ;_; ) There are otherwise a few more mons with similar trait, and then theres webs that let slower mons do crap with it as well.

Above are some of the most relevant calcs of mons faster than eggy and tbh most mons of any team are composed of the above mons. Hence, even though eggy is an amazing breaker, its speed makes it balanced. It has negligible switchins, but u don't need a switchin to beat it. There is in fact normally no such thing as bringing eggy in safely. It can either lose to the mon in front or atmost take down 1 mon if we go bam on it and 1 for something like eggy is very much worth while imo.

Theres anoher way to explain this. Eggy is beartic of alpha zu.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
hp atk def spa spd spe~~ hp atk def spa spd spe
95 130 80 70 80 50~~~~~95 105 85 125 75 45

As you can see, their bulk and offensive power is very similar. And as for no 130 bp stab on beartic, lemme show you a calc.
1.5*x = 2; x=4/3
Which means, sd boost is 4/3 times choice band boost. So, if we multiply this 4/3 in 85 bp of icicle crash for a rough calc,
85*4/3 = 113.2 which takes it really close to 130 bp stab(not to mention higher offensive stat).
So, in alpha zu where mons that could answer beartic and were faster were not many, and half of the team used to be slower than beartic, how did we beat a beartic after sd given it had coverage like ice/water/fighting?
We abused its low speed to go bam. That's exactly what eggy demands too.


I was planning to advocate properly fro vika as everyone knows how much I love bugs and am obsessed with sticky web and tbh I also wrote a big para explaining it in detail, but then my pc hung up and my edit went to trash. now I cant type all that stuff again, so I willskip summarising the plus points of vika and go straight ahead.
magmortar(win)/lycanroc-midnight(win)/sash lycanroc(win)/gurdurr(win)/kangaskhan(tie)/regigigas(win or tie)/rotom(win)/drampa(win)/dusknoir(win) are some answers to czim set of throat spray agility (I forgot the others I had found out and written previously.) ;_;
The thing is that even tho this set is destructive, due to the spread and strat, it loses hdb, recovery and bull investment making most checks of crustle become the checks of vikavolt as well.
(Yeh I skipped the calcs too cuz u know, that's the main time consuming thing and I had done that while typing vika part previously so ik how much of a pain it is really sry.)

the other set is webs with different spreads and has most of the same answers as above while also many other sp attackers that are faster that it.

Basically, the unpredictability of vikavolt isn't much problematic as all its sets have many common answers.
Besides, it is a very healthy presence that effectively answers stuff like gallade/cinccino/sneasel.

 

[Tuthur]

V
252+ SpA Accelgor Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 338-402 (102.1 - 121.4%) {this calc was for throat spray set, otherwise plin252 spa has 62.5% chance to ohko and 0 spa does 74.3 to 87.6% meaning egg killed one at most and died.}

V
252 Atk Life Orb Cinccino Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 639-765 (193 - 231.1%)

V
252 Atk Life Orb Cinccino Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 639-765 (193 - 231.1%)

V
252 Atk Life Orb Lycanroc Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 224-265 (67.6 - 80%) {once again, 1 for 1}

V
252 Atk Froslass Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 660-792 (199.3 - 239.2%)

V
252 Atk Choice Band Liepard Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 260-306 (78.5 - 92.4%)
252 Atk Choice Band Liepard U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 202-238 (61 - 71.9%)
Pls don't kill me for baned liepard. It seems there was this set named PU wallbreaker in showdown calc so I checked it out.

V
0 SpA Cryogonal Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 372-436 (112.3 - 131.7%)

V
252 Atk Rapidash Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 187-222 (56.4 - 67%) {again, 1 for 1 but wait! generaly during safe entry of eggy rap would be on +2 with sd}

V
252 Atk Life Orb Rapidash-Galar Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 367-432 (110.8 - 130.5%)

V
252 SpA Kadabra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 208-246 (62.8 - 74.3%) {with sash magic guard, it beats it or with lo it nearly kos it, so either eggy dies, or 1 for 1}

V
252 SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 192+ SpD Miltank: 297-351 (75.3 - 89%) {so between spa drop, milk drink, toxic and body slam, overtime miltank beats eggy}

V
Regigigas @ Leftovers
Careful Nature
Ability: Slow Start
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
- Body Slam
- Protect
- Substitute
- Toxic
this is the stall set of gigas.
252 SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Regigigas: 210-247 (49.5 - 58.2%)
less efficiently than miltank, but still over time this set basically beats eggy.

V (small)
252 Atk Choice Band Gourgeist-Small Poltergeist (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 231-273 (69.7 - 82.4%) {eggy goes 1 for 1}

V
252 SpA Life Orb Basculin Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 468-551 (141.3 - 166.4%)

V (scarf)
252+ Atk Electivire Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 396-468 (119.6 - 141.3%)

V
252 Atk Life Orb Leafeon X-Scissor vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 234-276 (70.6 - 83.3%) {eggy goes 1 for 1}

V (a random neutral from both ends vally)
252 Atk Silvally Multi-Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 181-214 (54.6 - 64.6%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Silvally: 322-381 (97.2 - 115.1%)
So, either it goes 1 for 1, or u run the small spd investment vally which basically beats eggy.

V
(screens)
252 SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Uxie through Light Screen: 123-145 (34.7 - 40.9%)
4 SpA Uxie Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 97-115 (29.3 - 34.7%)
(rocks)
252 SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Uxie: 186-219 (52.5 - 61.8%)
And then there are the twave yawn and memento sets which well are just there felt like mentioning ntg special about them for this respect ig.

V
252 Atk Unfezant Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 410-486 (123.8 - 146.8%)

V
252 Atk Silk Scarf Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 217-256 (65.5 - 77.3%) {1 for 1}

V
0 SpA Orbeetle Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 204-242 (61.6 - 73.1%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Orbeetle: 264-312 (81.4 - 96.2%)
Orbeetle @ Heavy-duty boots/leftovers
Timid Nature
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Calm Mind
- Recover
- Psychic
- Bug Buzz

V
0 SpA Golbat Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 144-170 (43.5 - 51.3%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 68+ SpD Eviolite Golbat: 219-258 (61.8 - 72.8%)
Now golbat has stuff like bb/air slash/toxic/super fang/roost etc so eggy eventually loses.

V
252 SpA Rotom-Fan Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 270-318 (81.5 - 96%) {1 for 1}

V
252 SpA Rotom-Frost Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 780-924 (235.6 - 279.1%)

V
0 SpA Cramorant Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 260-308 (78.5 - 93%) {1 for 1}

V
252 SpA Golduck Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 400-472 (120.8 - 142.5%)

V
252 Atk Pinsir X-Scissor vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 290-344 (87.6 - 103.9%)

V
No need for calcs, just a straight dbond destruction.

V (sturdy)
252 Atk Sawk Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 219-258 (66.1 - 77.9%)

V
252 Atk Choice Band Gourgeist Poltergeist (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 240-283 (72.5 - 85.4%) {1 for 1}

V (speed creep)
0 SpA Skuntank Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 186-218 (56.1 - 65.8%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Skuntank: 306-360 (74.6 - 87.8%)

V
252 SpA Choice Specs Magmortar Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 331-390 (100 - 117.8%)
252 SpA Magmortar Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 220-261 (66.4 - 78.8%)

V
252 Atk Life Orb Lycanroc-Midnight Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 224-265 (67.6 - 80%) {normally it might already have set sd during switch in)

V
0 SpA Altaria Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 222-264 (67 - 79.7%)
0 SpA Altaria Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 264-312 (79.7 - 94.2%)

V
252 SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Draco Meteor vs. 12 HP / 0 SpD Drifblim: 507-597 (114.1 - 134.4%)
244+ SpA Drifblim Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 141-166 (42.5 - 50.1%)
Drifblim @ Sitrus Berry
Modest Nature
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 12 HP / 244 SpA / 252 Spe
- Calm Mind
- Substitute
- Shadow Ball
- Thunderbolt
with this set and the clacs, blim very easily sets up on eggy and beats it.

V
252 Atk Life Orb Gallade Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 285-335 (86.1 - 101.2%)

V
252 Atk Choice Band Thwackey U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 198-234 (59.8 - 70.6%)
Here an easy switchin on clefairy or something is possible cuz in order to beat thwackey, eggy needs to use either dmeteor or flamethrower.

V
252+ Atk Iron Fist Hitmonchan Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 160-189 (48.3 - 57%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Leaf Storm vs. 44 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Hitmonchan: 190-225 (75.3 - 89.2%)
Hitmonchan @ Assault Vest
Adamant Nature
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 44 HP / 252 Atk / 212 Spe
- Rapid Spin
- Drain Punch
- Throat Chop
- Bullet Punch
if u have ice punch over throat chop, u basially ohko eggy.

V (speed creep)
252+ Atk Garbodor Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 398-470 (120.2 - 141.9%)

V (agility set)
252+ Atk Life Orb Kingler X-Scissor vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 286-338 (86.4 - 102.1%)

V
252 SpA Butterfree Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 354-416 (106.9 - 125.6%)

V
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Flapple U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 350-412 (105.7 - 124.4%)

V
252 SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 499-593 (150.7 - 179.1%)

V
252 Atk Choice Band Poliwrath Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 452-536 (136.5 - 161.9%)

V
252+ Atk Centiskorch Leech Life vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 302-356 (91.2 - 107.5%)

V
252 SpA Frosmoth Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 724-856 (218.7 - 258.6%)

V
252 SpA Life Orb Alcremie Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 382-452 (115.4 - 136.5%)

V (offensive)
252+ SpA Lapras Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 472-564 (142.5 - 170.3%)

V
252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Clawitzer Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 494-582 (149.2 - 175.8%)

I think you missunderstood the problem behind Exeggutor-Alola.
The Choice Specs set is indeed not the greatest against super offensive teams where all the mon outspeed Exeggutor-Alola. But that's forgetting two points: OTR Exeggutor-Alola just demolishes most of your so called answers and Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola is especially good against defensive archetypes because nothing reliably walls it outside of SpD Cryogonal, I'll come back later at it.

OTR Eggy versus your offensive checks

Exeggutor-Alola @ Life Orb
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Quiet Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Trick Room
- Draco Meteor
- Giga Drain
- Flamethrower

So let's took a look at the offensive answers you suggest earlier.

wall of calcs

252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor-Alola Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Accelgor: 411-486 (136.5 - 161.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor-Alola Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Cinccino: 255-302 (87.6 - 103.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor-Alola Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lycanroc: 484-569 (166.3 - 195.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor-Alola Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Froslass: 367-432 (130.6 - 153.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor-Alola Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Liepard: 294-347 (109.2 - 128.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor-Alola Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Rapidash: 352-417 (105.3 - 124.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor-Alola Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rapidash-Galar: 207-243 (76.3 - 89.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor-Alola Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gourgeist-Small: 346-408 (137.8 - 162.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor-Alola Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Basculin: 549-647 (195.3 - 230.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor-Alola Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Electivire: 337-398 (115.8 - 136.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor-Alola Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Leafeon: 387-458 (142.8 - 169%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor-Alola Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Silvally: 308-364 (93 - 109.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor-Alola Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Unfezant: 221-260 (73.4 - 86.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor-Alola Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kangaskhan: 352-417 (100.2 - 118.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor-Alola Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Fan: 278-329 (91.4 - 108.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor-Alola Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Rotom-Frost: 257-304 (106.6 - 126.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor-Alola Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cramorant: 308-363 (89.5 - 105.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor-Alola Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Golduck: 408-484 (135.5 - 160.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor-Alola Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pinsir: 367-432 (135.4 - 159.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor-Alola Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Qwilfish: 274-325 (82 - 97.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor-Alola Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 346-408 (111.2 - 131.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor-Alola Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Skuntank: 441-519 (127 - 149.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor-Alola Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Magmortar: 308-364 (105.8 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor-Alola Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lycanroc-Midnight: 432-510 (138.9 - 163.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor-Alola Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Altaria: 413-486 (116.6 - 137.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor-Alola Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Drifblim: 480-565 (108.8 - 128.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor-Alola Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gallade: 263-309 (94.9 - 111.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor-Alola Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Thwackey: 411-486 (146.2 - 172.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor-Alola Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Garbodor: 347-409 (115.2 - 135.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor-Alola Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kingler: 588-694 (234.2 - 276.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor-Alola Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Butterfree: 325-385 (124.5 - 147.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor-Alola Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Flapple: 884-1045 (314.5 - 371.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor-Alola Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ludicolo: 294-347 (98.3 - 116%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor-Alola Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Poliwrath: 374-439 (116.5 - 136.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor-Alola Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Centiskorch: 320-378 (93.8 - 110.8%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor-Alola Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ice Scales Frosmoth: 296-351 (105.3 - 124.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor-Alola Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lapras: 354-421 (88.2 - 104.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Exeggutor-Alola Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clawitzer: 374-445 (108 - 128.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Which mon are remaining? SpD Miltank, Orbeetle, Sneasel, and Alcremie that can't switch into Choice Specs. Kadabra and Sawk that work only if their Sash / Sturdy isn't broken. Regigigas and Uxie that need to stay super healthy and that don't threaten Exeggutor-A outside of Knock Off. Hitmonchan and Golbat that have big flaws which I'll cover later. Cryogonal which is the only true reliable answer. There are also more mons I could have fit in this category: Clefairy and Audino that can't switch into Specs and Type:Null, Togetic, and Marill that have big flaws.
So unless you predict correctly Exeggtor-Alola set and switch right off the bat the SpD Wall that loses to Specs or have SpD Cryogonal, you're losing a Pokémon if Exeggutor-Alola comes in, and probably several if you can't force it to click Draco Meteor or if your Special wall already got weakened.

Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola calcs versus defensive walls

Exeggutor-Alola @ Choice Specs
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Leaf Storm
- Flamethrower
- Giga Drain

Ok, so I'll focus on defensive walls and Steel- and Fairy-types in this section because the rest is outright OHKOed by Draco Meteor.
Let's take a look at the aforementionned Pokémon.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Miltank: 306-361 (77.6 - 91.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Even if Miltank avoids the OHKO or holds Heavy-Duty Boots, it isn't a reliable counterplay at all. As Exeggutor-Alola switches out and Miltank recovers, it has lost arround 30% of its health, which is in range of the Draco Meteor.


252+ SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Orbeetle: 216-255 (66.6 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Orbeetle: 200-236 (61.7 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
First, Orbeetle isn't a great Pokémon atm because it loses to a lot of wallbreakers and is super passive. Second, if Orbeetle switches into Flamethrower, it loses. Third, if Orbeetle switches into Draco Meteor, it recovers as Exeggutor-Alola switches out and has taken arround 20% damage in the process, meaning that if it has taken minimal chips beforehands, it is in Draco Meteor range, while the Exeggutor-Alola only lost 1 Draco Meteor PP.


252+ SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Sneasel: 247-292 (98.4 - 116.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock


252+ SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Alcremie: 288-340 (86.2 - 101.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


252+ SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Leaf Storm over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Clefairy: 321-379 (93.3 - 110.1%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefairy: 319-376 (92.7 - 109.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefairy: 186-219 (54 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


252+ SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Draco Meteor vs. 44 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Hitmonchan: 210-247 (83.3 - 98%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
That's the spread you suggested and I just wanted to show you how bad it was. Hitmonchan can and do run more bulk on its Assault Vest sets, however these sets lack recovery. Drain Punch is just not enough considering the amount of Ghost-types that blocks it and residual damage from Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and Rocky Helmet, that makes Hitmonchan a shaky answer.


252+ SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Golbat: 196-232 (55.3 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Golbat: 294-346 (83 - 97.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Golbat relies on Eviolite to take on Exeggutor-Alola, but unlike versus Clef, Eggy-A can just spam its best move Draco Meteor. If Stealth Rock are up, Golbat can just come once as the second time it comes in, it is in range of Draco Meteor.


252+ SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 270-318 (65.8 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 405-478 (98.7 - 116.5%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO
Audino is super unreliable, it gets outright 2HKOed and if it switches out to recover through Regenerator, but it's in range of Draco Meteor / Leaf Storm.


252+ SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cryogonal: 198-234 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cryogonal: 184-218 (50.5 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Cryogonal loses 10~15% each time it comes on Exeggutor-Alola which is the most reliable we've found here. In the long run, it handles Exeggutor-Alola, but that's one mon in our list and it takes over half from 3 moves out of 4.


252+ SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Type: Null: 169-199 (43 - 50.6%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Type: Null: 380-448 (96.6 - 113.9%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns after Stealth Rock
This seems pretty reliable as long as it doesn't lose its Eviolite, until you realize Type:Null is super easy to weaken because it relies on Rest to recover and is therefore super abusable with hazard support.


I hope noone is considering using these attrocious Pokémon because they are super bad in any match-up where there is no Exeggutor-Alola. Sap Sipper Marill is tremendously passive, has no recovery, and subpar bulk. Togetic is weak to Stealth Rock, relies on Eviolite, slow, ... It has just to many flaws in comparison to other similar Pokémon like Clefairy and Altaria.


252+ SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 336-396 (115 - 135.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Perrserker: 255-300 (90.7 - 106.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 176 SpD Assault Vest Perrserker: 248-292 (72 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magneton: 226-267 (93.7 - 110.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Magneton: 280-330 (116.1 - 136.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Stunfisk-Galar: 136-161 (32.2 - 38.1%) -- 13% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Stunfisk-Galar: 273-322 (64.6 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Flamethrower vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Klinklang: 360-424 (119.6 - 140.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mawile: 274-323 (90.1 - 106.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Just to show that Steel-types aren't reliable at all. Flamethrower OHKOes or put them in range of all the other moves, so you can't afford to misspredict once or you lose a Pokémon. Most of them are even OHKOed by Draco Meteor / Leaf Storm, this is just ridiculous.

So let me explain what's the reliable counterplay to Exeggutor that isn't exploitable with just Stealth Rock and isn't a subpar NFE like Togetic, Marill, or Type:Null:

spoiler

Cryogonal

That's it. One Pokémon. The only other reasoning I have heard is: don't let Exeggutor-Alola come in .-. That's ridiculous given the number of viable pivots we have, just to name a few, Persian-Alola, Basculin, any Silvally form, any Rotom form, Uxie. Sure Vikavolt is the best pivot and losing it means one less amazing pivot for Exeggutor-Alola, but do you think removing one pivot is what will make a breaker that just needs SR to beat everything that isn't full SpD Cryogonal healhy. Not using any Pokémon on which Exeggutor-Alola could come is also impossible because it means giving up on almost any physical walls and attackers that don't have a super effective move (Persian-Alola and Parting Shot Silvally can actually let it come on far more attackers than you'd think).
Some also said, Exeggutor-Alola is forced into a lot of 50/50s and those are part of the game. I'd like to start by saying that 50/50s aren't healthy and that's a part of the reason Aegislash has been Ubers the last two gens. However, Exeggutor-Alola isn't forced in 50/50s that often. The list of Pokémon that don't fall to Draco Meteor is quite wide: Clefairy, Cryogonal, Alcremie, Ferroseed, Klinklang, SpD Stunfisk-Galar, Assault Vest Perrserker, Carbink, Rapidash-Galar, Eviolite Magneton, and Specially Defensive Orbeetle. Now take in account, the one that can't come anymore on Draco Meteor if they get hit once by Flamethrower/Leaf Storm: Clefairy and Cryogonal. What a huge list! Handling Exeggutor-Alola with 50/50 isn't healthy and isn't possible since guessing once wrong means there are no more 50/50s and Exeggutor can spam Draco Meteor.
The only valid argument defending Exeggutor-Alola in my opinion is that the Special Defense drops are exploitable. While this is true and that there a ton of sweepers / breakers you don't want to give a turn, this doesn't make Exeggutor-Alola more healthy. Does being able to send a breaker worth losing a mon everytime Exeggutor-Alola comes in? I don't think it is.
I'm voting BAN Exeggutor-Alola because there is no defensive counterplays to it when SR are up outside of SpD Cryogonal and unhealthy 50/50s with Clefairy.

I was planning to advocate properly fro vika as everyone knows how much I love bugs and am obsessed with sticky web and tbh I also wrote a big para explaining it in detail, but then my pc hung up and my edit went to trash. now I cant type all that stuff again, so I willskip summarising the plus points of vika and go straight ahead.
magmortar(win)/lycanroc-midnight(win)/sash lycanroc(win)/gurdurr(win)/kangaskhan(tie)/regigigas(win or tie)/rotom(win)/drampa(win)/dusknoir(win) are some answers to czim set of throat spray agility (I forgot the others I had found out and written previously.) ;_;
(Yeh I skipped the calcs too cuz u know, that's the main time consuming thing and I had done that while typing vika part previously so ik how much of a pain it is really sry.)

the other set is webs with different spreads and has most of the same answers as above while also many other sp attackers that are faster that it.

Basically, the unpredictability of vikavolt isn't much problematic as all its sets have many common answers.
Besides, it is a very healthy presence that effectively answers stuff like gallade/cinccino/sneasel.

I think you don't understand why Vikavolt is one this voting slate. Agility sets are quite mediocre and aren't a reason why this voted on. I'll keep this answer short as it seems to have a general concensus arround Vikavolt being broken.
The main problem with your reasoning risin is that you only consider the game in 1v1, which is not. Magmortar and Lycan can OHKO Vikavolt, but neither reliably switches on it as they are taking a ton from Volt Switch and neither prevents Sticky Web from being setting up.
Vikavolt's bulky sets are just obnoxious because they hard to take out without strong breakers that can't afford to come on its Volt Switch repetitively, it can easily setup Sticky Webs and nothing wants to Defog on its face, and its Volt Switch are impossible to punish as it 2HKOes all the Ground-types with Energy Ball.
That's why I'll be voting BAN on Vikavolt.

 

[risin_glory]

Tuthur I would like to quote literally your entire post but that's not possible so I will just not quote it at all. When I mentioned those mons for exeggutor, I didn't mean to say they were it's answers or they would switch in on it. I even explained as a summary in the end, that eggy alola even if given a safe switchin, either just straight away loses to the mon in front of it, or take enough damage to lose without hitting the next time it comes out. And that is because a very big part of the tier is composed of mons that are good, outspeed eggy and make the majority of any team. Hence, eggy not having switchins isn't a valid reason to ban it. It can atmost beat the one mon in front of it and then die. As for the tr set, I have used it myself and it has two major drawbacks leading to it being manageable. 1)the way tr is always stalled. 2) lo means the mons that were barely ohkod with or without Sr, now get 2hkod meaning eggy goes down.

It's the same thing with vika.
Defensive sets have just enough power(due to high base spa) to not make it passive or a plain chipper like charja and so once again you don't exactly need a switchin and fear vswitch. Whereas, the offensive set straightaway destroys a big part of tier, but is defensively suffered.

Hence in short, I think you and I see and think the situation in polar opposite ways.
(Then again, while checking on the calcs for czim vika set, I realised that this thing can be a problem and restricting, so I am now 50-50 on vika.)

 

[AstilCodex]

Ok so Tuthur ease my job on making a full post replying to risin's one but I still feel the need to intervene this time.

that eggy alola even if given a safe switchin, either just straight away loses to the mon in front of it, or take enough damage to lose without hitting the next time it comes out. And that is because a very big part of the tier is composed of mons that are good, outspeed eggy and make the majority of any team.

This is not true, Eggy-A has the enough bulk and resistances to again, when given a switch, force the mon out or just have the player sacking it because you literally can't switch into it. Hitting it to chip away while dying alone is an solid evidence of why this mon is unhealthy. Also, Eggy-A even if being a slow wallbreaker it founds in a comfortable position against common bulky pokemon of the tier to have free switch-ins. Not all the teams are performed by 6 offensive mons that can threaten Eggy-A nor ohko it just like that.

Hence, eggy not having switchins isn't a valid reason to ban it. It can atmost beat the one mon in front of it and then die.

Yes it is, lol. It's literally the main reason why so many offensive pokemon get banned. Taking some OU examples: Dracovish, Darmanitan-G, Urshifu, etc. Even Urshifu had an always switch-in in Buzzwole yet still get banned cuz of teambuilding restriction. Also, I don't think you're getting the right view or playing Eggy-A rightfully if you let it die after taking down one mon.

As for the tr set, I have used it myself and it has two major drawbacks leading to it being manageable. 1)the way tr is always stalled. 2) lo means the mons that were barely ohkod with or without Sr, now get 2hkod meaning eggy goes down.

This might work if your TR abuser needs to setup to wallbreak or yet still has counters even if it has the speed advantage. In this case, you'll have to get every play while TR turns are on cuz if you are playing those offensive teams you have 0 switch-ins to Eggy. Secondly, Eggy doesn't work alone lol. You saying it like if someone would try to setup TR turn 1 that's not the case. Needing minimun chip from SR to put them in KO range from Eggy will be always in Eggy's player favor. I don't see how barely living a move is an advantage.

Regarding Vikavolt I'm just gonna reply to this

Defensive sets have just enough power(due to high base spa) to not make it passive or a plain chipper like charja and so once again you don't exactly need a switchin and fear vswitch.

I still don't think you have the right view about why Vikavolt is busted. Vikavolt still strong enough even if no investment so you have to fear VS and grounds can't come in due to Energy Ball. Is far from being passive. But that isn't the point. The fact that Vikavolt can pretty much ensure webs multiple times, slow pivot doing very good damage, being so obnoxious to play, hard to kill. Allows the potential for other wallbreakers to be even better. Vikavolt its just too good at what it does. Banning Vikavolt means that lots of potential busted mons get more balanced as no other webs setter is nearly as good and splashable as Vikavolt is right now.

Final thoughts
It seems that Vikavolt will leave the tier but Eggy somehow still on the fence. Yet I don't understand why a mon that ohkos the whole tier by a minimum bunch of Spd walls that are so exploitable and passive its not unhealthy. All Eggy potential switch-ins are one time switch because they are forced to recover next turn meaning next time they won't switch into it anymore. Also all of them are weak to Fighting types including Golbat which hates Knock Off. (I'm not taken into discussion things like Marill, Togetic or HP Bronzor as the fact that these mons alone are considered as answers means Eggy is indeed busted lol) I also don't find strong argument stuff like 'It needs to win 50/50' because it clearly doesn't, most of the times you are clicking free buttons, or 'Its just a wallbreaker doing its job' as most wallbreakers has enough flaws, risks or they need more support to perform yet I still don't see how the minimal flaws Eggy has are enough to justify it keeping it on the tier.

 

[risin_glory]

Ok so Tuthur ease my job on making a full post replying to risin's one but I still feel the need to intervene this time.

IDK how to quote multiple times so will just quote the reply in general.
IDK how many different ways I will need to say this, but if you look carefully, 4-5 mons in a team are almost always faster than eggy these days(unless it's bulky stall team or something) and those 4-5 mons are nearly all one of the mons I mentioned in that humongous list.
As for the examples of urshify darm etc., There is one significant and decisive difference. They actually are all sufficiently fast to kill one month every switching, which is not the case with eggy.
Besides, the tr eggy outside tr point was already answered by me earlier in a way while talking of webs vs eggy. Mons slower than non tr eggy can make a crap out of it too in that case. In my oppinion, existence of a counter is not necessary for a mon to be healthy.

As for vika, with every passing second, the calcs regarding czim vika set are making me lean more towards vika ban.

 

[kay]

Sticky Webs are phenomenal in ZU thanks to a ton of Silvally formes, faster wallbreakers that are grounded and cannot afford to hold Heavy-Duty Boots, and Vikavolt being a great defensive pivot. Vikavolt fits almost everywhere with its mix of offensive and defensive utility, and Volt Switch punishes physical attackers as there's practically no safe switch-ins for it; Energy Ball hurts the tier's Ground-types too much. The exception of Galarian Stunfisk isn't perfect either, as its best punishments of either Snap Trap + Yawn, Stealth Rock, or Stone Edge usually aren't enough to deter Vikavolt from setting Sticky Web or out recovering the damage with Roost. Its best checks would then be faster wallbreakers like Magmotor, Centiscorch, Choice Band Lycanrock, and specially offensive Basculin, but the latter two could be insufficient later on if Vikavolt ends up setting Sticky Web on the turn its sacked to them. Only a handful of hazard control Pokemon can check Vikavolt too, with some switch-ins for it being Rotom, Rotom-F, Cryogonal, and Turtonator. Most of this analysis has been on the basis of Vikavolt running a wall set, but make no mistake that it may opt for a more offensive and fast spread to have an even more punishing Volt Switch, and to get an edge against other slower attackers like Rhydon and Wishiwashi. Offensive pressure or outstalling it with Knock Off + Stealth Rock + Toxic support are usually the best ways to see it falter, leaving balance playstyles suffering as a result.

So while I don't disagee with any of this, I think it also leaves out a massive part of why vikavolt is such a problem in the tier. While yes webs is a fantastic play style because of vika, its also not the main reason its a problem as evident by 3 attacks roost also being incredibly broken. The main problem with vikavolt is just how well it enables the rest of the tiers wall breaker by generating infinite momentum thanks to its slow yet unwallable volt switch packed with insane power and the longevity that boots + roost gives you. Vikavolt single handedly is the reason a lot of teams can just throw on a random second pivot like persian-a and then just go to town with any wall breaker of choice ranging from sneasel, magmortar, gallade or even eggy. This to me is by far the biggest reason to ban vikavolt with webs being a footnote in just how much more it can enable if you're willing to change your team around the addition of webs so just wanted to hijack this post to make it clear there's even more to vika that's broken then this very good post puts out there

Lets see why this mon with near to no switchins is still not banwrothy as per me.

Okay not going to quote the whole post but here we go.

Yes, we have things that can revenge kill eggy. I don't think anyone is making the case that its un-revenge killable, the problem people have with it is there are just no switch ins so I'm struggling to understand why posting everything that can revenge kill it makes a difference unless you're trying to say that by having things that can revenge kill it then its somehow not broken? So let me just explain why that isn't the case by quoting another post of yours

When I mentioned those mons for exeggutor, I didn't mean to say they were it's answers or they would switch in on it. I even explained as a summary in the end, that eggy alola even if given a safe switchin, either just straight away loses to the mon in front of it, or take enough damage to lose without hitting the next time it comes out. And that is because a very big part of the tier is composed of mons that are good, outspeed eggy and make the majority of any team. Hence, eggy not having switchins isn't a valid reason to ban it. It can atmost beat the one mon in front of it and then die.

Okay so lets say I'm the eggy player. I come in on a choice locked rotom or basc and I click draco and get a kill and you go into one of the pokemon you listed above to revenge kill me. I can just switch out? Like unless you have something I just have no answers to and I'm forced to sack, there's no reason to just let my eggy die here when because of its bulk + typing you can just double or pivot into it later and still find value off it. If you're just sacking it on the next mon that comes in and playing it constantly to 1 for 1 then yeah obviously its not going to look broken. But that's a player issue and not an issue with the mon because that's not how it should be used. It IS valid reason to ban it because if you can get eggy in 2 or 3 times a game and it gets 2 to 3 kills then you can see how that's pretty unfair when the only good option to actually wall it and not lose 2 to 3 pokemon in that situation is cryognal or be REALLY good at your 50/50s. This mon at its core its entirely problematic and I think you're missing the point of why people are struggling with it.

There is in fact normally no such thing as bringing eggy in safely. It can either lose to the mon in front or atmost take down 1 mon if we go bam on it and 1 for something like eggy is very much worth while imo.

Eggy-a is a mon with great bulk and x4 resistances to grass, water, and electric. There are almost no issues actually getting eggy-a in with all that going for it + all the pivots that are being spammed right now. Offensive teams that use any choice locked electrics like the rotoms or even specs/band basc being water locked means you have a free opportunity to punish the eggy-a so even a lot of offensive teams gives it moments to come in for free even if you chose not to build with pivots or doubling.

 

[risin_glory]

Eh I am actually unable to understand the reasoning everyone is giving. Cuz quite frankly, I don't see the reason to have a switchin in the first place. But I won't say anymore about this, cuz I am already out of words kek.
Oh and Kay, I am not saying you kill a mon with eggy and then let it die next turn. I am saying that in the process of killing a mon, eggy already takes enough damage to die on its next switchin without even hitting.

 

[|Powerman|]

Ok the meta oppose risin is back and as expected I am DNB for both eggy and vika. (I know this is not the way this post should normally go but its gonna be a very long post trying to explain why both these mons are okay here and so I told my view in the starting itself, so u don't need to search for it over the long paras.

Lets see why this mon with near to no switchins is still not banwrothy as per me.

V
252+ SpA Accelgor Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 338-402 (102.1 - 121.4%) {this calc was for throat spray set, otherwise plin252 spa has 62.5% chance to ohko and 0 spa does 74.3 to 87.6% meaning egg killed one at most and died.}

V
252 Atk Life Orb Cinccino Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 639-765 (193 - 231.1%)

V
252 Atk Life Orb Cinccino Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 639-765 (193 - 231.1%)

V
252 Atk Life Orb Lycanroc Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 224-265 (67.6 - 80%) {once again, 1 for 1}

V
252 Atk Froslass Triple Axel (40 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 660-792 (199.3 - 239.2%)

V
252 Atk Choice Band Liepard Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 260-306 (78.5 - 92.4%)
252 Atk Choice Band Liepard U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 202-238 (61 - 71.9%)
Pls don't kill me for baned liepard. It seems there was this set named PU wallbreaker in showdown calc so I checked it out.

V
0 SpA Cryogonal Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 372-436 (112.3 - 131.7%)

V
252 Atk Rapidash Flare Blitz vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 187-222 (56.4 - 67%) {again, 1 for 1 but wait! generaly during safe entry of eggy rap would be on +2 with sd}

V
252 Atk Life Orb Rapidash-Galar Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 367-432 (110.8 - 130.5%)

V
252 SpA Kadabra Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 208-246 (62.8 - 74.3%) {with sash magic guard, it beats it or with lo it nearly kos it, so either eggy dies, or 1 for 1}

V
252 SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 192+ SpD Miltank: 297-351 (75.3 - 89%) {so between spa drop, milk drink, toxic and body slam, overtime miltank beats eggy}

V
Regigigas @ Leftovers
Careful Nature
Ability: Slow Start
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
- Body Slam
- Protect
- Substitute
- Toxic
this is the stall set of gigas.
252 SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Regigigas: 210-247 (49.5 - 58.2%)
less efficiently than miltank, but still over time this set basically beats eggy.

V (small)
252 Atk Choice Band Gourgeist-Small Poltergeist (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 231-273 (69.7 - 82.4%) {eggy goes 1 for 1}

V
252 SpA Life Orb Basculin Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 468-551 (141.3 - 166.4%)

V (scarf)
252+ Atk Electivire Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 396-468 (119.6 - 141.3%)

V
252 Atk Life Orb Leafeon X-Scissor vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 234-276 (70.6 - 83.3%) {eggy goes 1 for 1}

V (a random neutral from both ends vally)
252 Atk Silvally Multi-Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 181-214 (54.6 - 64.6%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Silvally: 322-381 (97.2 - 115.1%)
So, either it goes 1 for 1, or u run the small spd investment vally which basically beats eggy.

V
(screens)
252 SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Uxie through Light Screen: 123-145 (34.7 - 40.9%)
4 SpA Uxie Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 97-115 (29.3 - 34.7%)
(rocks)
252 SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Uxie: 186-219 (52.5 - 61.8%)
And then there are the twave yawn and memento sets which well are just there felt like mentioning ntg special about them for this respect ig.

V
252 Atk Unfezant Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 410-486 (123.8 - 146.8%)

V
252 Atk Silk Scarf Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 217-256 (65.5 - 77.3%) {1 for 1}

V
0 SpA Orbeetle Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 204-242 (61.6 - 73.1%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Orbeetle: 264-312 (81.4 - 96.2%)
Orbeetle @ Heavy-duty boots/leftovers
Timid Nature
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Calm Mind
- Recover
- Psychic
- Bug Buzz

V
0 SpA Golbat Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 144-170 (43.5 - 51.3%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 68+ SpD Eviolite Golbat: 219-258 (61.8 - 72.8%)
Now golbat has stuff like bb/air slash/toxic/super fang/roost etc so eggy eventually loses.

V
252 SpA Rotom-Fan Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 270-318 (81.5 - 96%) {1 for 1}

V
252 SpA Rotom-Frost Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 780-924 (235.6 - 279.1%)

V
0 SpA Cramorant Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 260-308 (78.5 - 93%) {1 for 1}

V
252 SpA Golduck Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 400-472 (120.8 - 142.5%)

V
252 Atk Pinsir X-Scissor vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 290-344 (87.6 - 103.9%)

V
No need for calcs, just a straight dbond destruction.

V (sturdy)
252 Atk Sawk Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 219-258 (66.1 - 77.9%)

V
252 Atk Choice Band Gourgeist Poltergeist (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 240-283 (72.5 - 85.4%) {1 for 1}

V (speed creep)
0 SpA Skuntank Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 186-218 (56.1 - 65.8%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Skuntank: 306-360 (74.6 - 87.8%)

V
252 SpA Choice Specs Magmortar Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 331-390 (100 - 117.8%)
252 SpA Magmortar Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 220-261 (66.4 - 78.8%)

V
252 Atk Life Orb Lycanroc-Midnight Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 224-265 (67.6 - 80%) {normally it might already have set sd during switch in)

V
0 SpA Altaria Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 222-264 (67 - 79.7%)
0 SpA Altaria Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 264-312 (79.7 - 94.2%)

V
252 SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Draco Meteor vs. 12 HP / 0 SpD Drifblim: 507-597 (114.1 - 134.4%)
244+ SpA Drifblim Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 141-166 (42.5 - 50.1%)
Drifblim @ Sitrus Berry
Modest Nature
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 12 HP / 244 SpA / 252 Spe
- Calm Mind
- Substitute
- Shadow Ball
- Thunderbolt
with this set and the clacs, blim very easily sets up on eggy and beats it.

V
252 Atk Life Orb Gallade Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 285-335 (86.1 - 101.2%)

V
252 Atk Choice Band Thwackey U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 198-234 (59.8 - 70.6%)
Here an easy switchin on clefairy or something is possible cuz in order to beat thwackey, eggy needs to use either dmeteor or flamethrower.

V
252+ Atk Iron Fist Hitmonchan Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 160-189 (48.3 - 57%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Exeggutor-Alola Leaf Storm vs. 44 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Hitmonchan: 190-225 (75.3 - 89.2%)
Hitmonchan @ Assault Vest
Adamant Nature
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 44 HP / 252 Atk / 212 Spe
- Rapid Spin
- Drain Punch
- Throat Chop
- Bullet Punch
if u have ice punch over throat chop, u basially ohko eggy.

V (speed creep)
252+ Atk Garbodor Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 398-470 (120.2 - 141.9%)

V (agility set)
252+ Atk Life Orb Kingler X-Scissor vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 286-338 (86.4 - 102.1%)

V
252 SpA Butterfree Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 354-416 (106.9 - 125.6%)

V
252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Flapple U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 350-412 (105.7 - 124.4%)

V
252 SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 499-593 (150.7 - 179.1%)

V
252 Atk Choice Band Poliwrath Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 452-536 (136.5 - 161.9%)

V
252+ Atk Centiskorch Leech Life vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Exeggutor-Alola: 302-356 (91.2 - 107.5%)

V
252 SpA Frosmoth Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 724-856 (218.7 - 258.6%)

V
252 SpA Life Orb Alcremie Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 382-452 (115.4 - 136.5%)

V (offensive)
252+ SpA Lapras Freeze-Dry vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 472-564 (142.5 - 170.3%)

V
252 SpA Choice Specs Mega Launcher Clawitzer Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Exeggutor-Alola: 494-582 (149.2 - 175.8%)


and so on.... (basically I am now tired of calcing all this ;_; ) There are otherwise a few more mons with similar trait, and then theres webs that let slower mons do crap with it as well.

Above are some of the most relevant calcs of mons faster than eggy and tbh most mons of any team are composed of the above mons. Hence, even though eggy is an amazing breaker, its speed makes it balanced. It has negligible switchins, but u don't need a switchin to beat it. There is in fact normally no such thing as bringing eggy in safely. It can either lose to the mon in front or atmost take down 1 mon if we go bam on it and 1 for something like eggy is very much worth while imo.

Theres anoher way to explain this. Eggy is beartic of alpha zu.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
hp atk def spa spd spe~~ hp atk def spa spd spe
95 130 80 70 80 50~~~~~95 105 85 125 75 45

As you can see, their bulk and offensive power is very similar. And as for no 130 bp stab on beartic, lemme show you a calc.
1.5*x = 2; x=4/3
Which means, sd boost is 4/3 times choice band boost. So, if we multiply this 4/3 in 85 bp of icicle crash for a rough calc,
85*4/3 = 113.2 which takes it really close to 130 bp stab(not to mention higher offensive stat).
So, in alpha zu where mons that could answer beartic and were faster were not many, and half of the team used to be slower than beartic, how did we beat a beartic after sd given it had coverage like ice/water/fighting?
We abused its low speed to go bam. That's exactly what eggy demands too.


I was planning to advocate properly fro vika as everyone knows how much I love bugs and am obsessed with sticky web and tbh I also wrote a big para explaining it in detail, but then my pc hung up and my edit went to trash. now I cant type all that stuff again, so I willskip summarising the plus points of vika and go straight ahead.
magmortar(win)/lycanroc-midnight(win)/sash lycanroc(win)/gurdurr(win)/kangaskhan(tie)/regigigas(win or tie)/rotom(win)/drampa(win)/dusknoir(win) are some answers to czim set of throat spray agility (I forgot the others I had found out and written previously.) ;_;
The thing is that even tho this set is destructive, due to the spread and strat, it loses hdb, recovery and bull investment making most checks of crustle become the checks of vikavolt as well.
(Yeh I skipped the calcs too cuz u know, that's the main time consuming thing and I had done that while typing vika part previously so ik how much of a pain it is really sry.)

the other set is webs with different spreads and has most of the same answers as above while also many other sp attackers that are faster that it.

Basically, the unpredictability of vikavolt isn't much problematic as all its sets have many common answers.
Besides, it is a very healthy presence that effectively answers stuff like gallade/cinccino/sneasel.

Sneasel has stab on triple axel. The cincino and sneasel have the same calcs.

 

[5gen]

Voting is over:

Banned with a 5:1 majority
Banned unanimously

Tagging The Immortal to implement. Votes and reasoning in the sheet as per usual.

Discussion points


Round 1 of Winter Open happens this coming week. It'll be interesting to see how the meta looks in an official tournament setting and how players build/adapt to this new meta.

 

[5gen]

ZU is voting on Gallade, Magmortar, Sneasel, and Turtonator. Results will be announced before next round of the Winter Open, Sunday or earlier. Here is the public voting sheet.



These Pokemon should not come as a surprise for anyone who has played ZU recently.

Gallade is a monstrous wallbreaker with Swords Dance sets and an excellent revenge killer as a Choice Scarf user, which makes it quite difficult to prepare for. This creates a dynamic where Gallade heavily impacts team building. However, there is counterplay to Gallade in the form of various soft checks and faster Pokemon. Without a Choice Scarf, Gallade fails to outspeed plenty of common offensive Pokemon, but with one, teams have an easier time pivoting around it.

Fire-types are incredible in ZU at the moment, and two of the big three are Magmortar and Turtonator. Magmortar is a pain for teams to prepare for defensively because it can either stallbreak, wallbreak, or do both whether it be with Taunt+Heavy Duty Boots or Choice Specs sets. Slower, bulkier switch-ins tend to be shut down by Taunt and overwhelmed over the course of a game, while Choice Specs Magmortar has the raw power to torch most of the meta. That being said, Magmortar's Speed leaves something to be desired and without HDB, pressuring Magmortar is considerably easier.

Turtonator is another potent Fire-type, especially on screens teams. Under screens support, Turtonator can set up on pretty much anything that isn't a phazer or Taunt user (and sometimes use Shell Smash twice and still be healthy enough to sweep). After a Shell Smash, Turtonator has only a handful of defensive and offensive checks, so teams usually need to pressure it and prevent it from setting up. Similarly, Turtonator does have exploitable weaknesses and is outsped by Choice Scarf users, which makes it easier to manage. Outside of screens, Turtonator is significantly more manageable.

Sneasel narrowly escaped the last time it was on a voting slate and it is back again for the same reasons. Sneasel's Speed tier and ability to spam Choice Band boosted Knock Off/Triple Axel make it difficult to check, both defensively and offensively. In addition, a Swords Dance+Heavy Duty Boots set gives Sneasel another dimension that teams must prepare for. However, the metagame has continued to adapt to Sneasel through physically defensive Fighting-types, walls like Carbink, and offensive checks.

These Pokemon deserve more than a relatively short blurb and I intentionally glossed over things and tried to be concise. Looking forward to everyone's posts.

 

[Konan the barbarian]

Just wanted to drop to mention, about sneasel... with it being a dark type, prankster mons (which are usually fine generic countermeasures for these kinds of wallbreakers) get completely cockblocked by it. As you said, it's already hard to prep for it without going for very specific counters like avalugg, and it still has the tools to beat them with the right moveset. You got priority mons or scarfers to revenge kill it? Good luck pulling that off, with sneasel boasting ice shard itself and swords dance. And thank god for the vallies all carrying flame charge, else this thing would just rampage unimpeded through the meta, but what if flame charge doesn't fit on my variation of vally? Worse yet, what if sneasel is the swords dance variant and it carries occa berry? Also you mentioned carbink as a counter, but realistically, what the hell does carbink do aside from setting the inconsistent at best and unviable at worst trick room and fart surprise explosions? Dual screens? It's so slow, it just becomes taunt/encore bait before it can even set up two.

Yeah, ban this thing to oblivion.

edit: and I forgot to mention inner focus, which also makes fake out and intimidate non factors.

 

[5gen]

Voting is over:

Banned unanimously
Banned with a 4:2 majority

Tagging The Immortal to implement. Votes and reasoning in the sheet as per usual.

Discussion points

Sneasel is a highly centralizing Pokemon in terms of community and council sentiment. Four out of six council members feel it should be suspected and from what I have seen in the room and Discord, many people feel it should have been council banned. Sneasel will likely receive a suspect test in the near future.

Magmortar is another Pokemon people have their eyes on. Mag is an incredible breaker and consistent at what it does, but has some exploitable flaws such as its middling Speed, susceptibility to physical attackers, and an SR weakness on Choice Specs sets.

Anything less you feel warrants attention (maybe Silv-Dragon, Centiskorch, etc)

From here on out we plan to have suspect tests rather than council voting slates. Stay tuned for any announcements on that. I look forward to seeing your guys' posts and opinions.

 

[NinjaMonkey3904]

Alright, time for my take of the winners and losers of Gallade and Turtonators bans!

Winners

Ice and Steel types

This is the most obvious set of winners on a wide scale, seeing as both types suffer immensely at the banning of two of the most prominent mons that thrashed both types as a whole and made it difficult to use them without putting yourself at a disadvantage if facing a Gallade or Turtonator. Sure the likes of Magmortar and Sawk still exist in this meta, but it'll still be far easier to use the likes of Vanilluxe, Magneton, Frosmoth, and Perrserker without risking yourself to one of the most threatening sweepers as a whole

Magmortar

Another rather obvious winner, it was already rather dominant between its raw firepower and the surprising speed of its scarf sets outspeeding almost the entire non boosted or scarfed metagame made it already a notable force to the point of being suspected, but with both a 4x resist unless it's running scorching sand AND one of the few mons who usually runs scarf and outspeed Magmortars scarf set and threatens to OHKO it with Close Combat being gone makes Magmortar probably the most obvious winner as a mon, in particular, so be prepared to see Magmortar doing a lot better without mons that gave it a lot of trouble gone

Sawk

While there is an argument that every fighting type wins in general due to no longer having to worry about being outclassed as an offensive fighting mon by Gallade, Sawk in particular stands out due to the fact it gets to simply take Gallades place as the offensive fast fighting type, with its identical attack stat, somewhat better bulk and superior speed tier only being let down by being a mono attacker and not having an anti-Sneasel ability like Gallade had justified, but I am expecting Sawk to rise in popularity and usage due to not having any competition for the fast fighting slot.

Omastar

If Sawk won due to no longer having to compete with Gallade as a fast fighting type, Omastar won when not having to compete with Turtonator for a Shell Smash sweeper slot, it was already somewhat worth considering with it's Sturdy Power Herb meteor beam sets, but with Turtonator out of the picture and one of the most popular fighting types that can outspeed it after a smash with a scarf set just means that Omastar generally won overall, and will probably rise to replace Turtonator as the standard shell smash sweeper.

Other general areas of winners that aren't as major but still worth mentioning

-Dragon

Magmortar checks are in very high demand due to Magmortar highly likely going to become a top tier threat with one of it's large offensive(Gallade) and defensive(Turtonator) checks being banned, so all of these six are likely going to be used more to counteract Magmortar.

Normal Rock, Poison, Fighting and Dark types

With the best Fighting and Psychic type in the tier now being banned, every single one of these types gets a lot more breathing room to actually exist now that they're not under threat by one of the best mons in the tier.

now, for

The Losers

Sneasel

Alright, this is my biggest opinion but with Gallade and Turtonator gone, Sneasel flat out gets worse, for the main reason, look at every single type I listed as a winner due to Gallade and Turtonators ban, with the exception of Poison, every single type is super effective against Sneasel, or resists one of it's two deadly stabs and with the meta able to experiment with bulkier mons of types that give Sneasel a tough time(namely fighting, rock and steel), along with Magmortar having more freedom to run it's scarf set to force Sneasel out whenever it gets the chance to come in, and you generally get the feeling that the bans aren't that in Sneasels favor

Jellicent

While Jellicent wasn't having the best time to begin with due to being required to run colbur berry to handle Gallade and Sneasels knock-offs, it suffers from losing something it had a great time checking, and Magmortar, who three shots max SPD Jellicent getting even more dominant in the meta, generally makes this mon whose currently high tier according to the VR, knocked down a few pegs, Dark and Ice type with Freeze Dry getting more breathing room doesn't give it any favors either

Thwackey

This one is simply as a whole Grass and Psychic types, and by extent, Grassy Terrain, getting "nerfed" due to the bans, with Magmortar highly likely to be a key winner, Centiskorch getting used more to handle Magmortar, and Ice, Dark, and Steel types as a whole being given a breath of new life without having to worry about Gallade generally means the grassy seed set up sweepers like Musharna and Swoobat and the powerful Grassy Terrain sweepers like Flapple and Gourgiest suffering due to the types that answer them now being allowed to roam free in the meta generally give grassy terrain as a whole, and especially Thwackey itself, a hard time

Lesser Losers

There's three general wide areas of types that lost due to Gallade being banned and the types that give them a hard time getting an easier time

Fairy, Grass, and Psychic types

All three types as a whole suffered due to Gallade being banned, with Ice, Steel, Poison, and Dark types now having an easier time, thus making Fairy, Grass and Psychic as a whole suffer immensely. Grass in particular isn't having an easier time due to Magmortar now likely to be one of the top mons in the tier. While individual mons might not suffer, the type as a whole won't be doing the best.

And that's all! Generally, I am looking forward to seeing how the meta develops with two of the most dominant mons being gone. So let's hope it becomes more healthy with Turtonator and especially Gallade being gone.​

 

[JdRDMS]

Sneasel

Alright, this is my biggest opinion but with Gallade and Turtonator gone, Sneasel flat out gets worse, for the main reason, look at every single type I listed as a winner due to Gallade and Turtonators ban, with the exception of Poison, every single type is super effective against Sneasel, or resists one of it's two deadly stabs and with the meta able to experiment with bulkier mons of types that give Sneasel a tough time(namely fighting, rock and steel), along with Magmortar having more freedom to run it's scarf set to force Sneasel out whenever it gets the chance to come in, and you generally get the feeling that the bans aren't that in Sneasels favor

This is actually pretty interesting. 5gen mentioned that a lot of people thought it should be banned during the first slate, but you've actually made a good point, making us consider the post slate metagame. Despite Gallade and Turtonator leaving appearing to make Sneasel even better at first glance, looking at how their departure affects the rest of the metagame could paint a different picture. I could agree that it would've been broken before hand, but looking at you're argument, with what's gotten better from Gallade's banning, I can see it being healthy enough to stay. I guess we'll have to see how the meta adapts to Gallade and Turtonator getting This was a really good post in general, but this in particular really stood out to me. Great job!

 

[kay]

The Losers

Sneasel

Alright, this is my biggest opinion but with Gallade and Turtonator gone, Sneasel flat out gets worse, for the main reason, look at every single type I listed as a winner due to Gallade and Turtonators ban, with the exception of Poison, every single type is super effective against Sneasel, or resists one of it's two deadly stabs and with the meta able to experiment with bulkier mons of types that give Sneasel a tough time(namely fighting, rock and steel), along with Magmortar having more freedom to run it's scarf set to force Sneasel out whenever it gets the chance to come in, and you generally get the feeling that the bans aren't that in Sneasels favor

Okay so I'm not going to go through the whole post, but I'll just point it out here because it applies for the general trend in the posts logic. You're looking at bans in a too simplistic form. Because while yes, gallade and turt leave technically makes steels better, those 2 were never what was gating things like Perrserker from being involved in the meta. You still have the issues a lot of the mons you listed have of just not being able to break the common cores such as Perrserker greatly struggling in a meta where physically defensive waters are so common or Vanilluxe having to contend with all the fires/ thick fat miltank giving no cares about its breaking ability on top of its lacking speed and SR weakness.

And even if steels suddenly made a comeback in the meta, unless they're also able to take knock offs it doesn't really mean anything because Sneasel is going to be wanting to spam Knock Off in all of its games not only because its a STAB nuke without many resists, it also happens to be one of the best utility moves in the tier.
I can't look at a team and have Vanilluxe or Perrserker as my Sneasel switch in and think that's okay because they're both getting nuked by the move Sneasel is wanting to press most, Knock Off. So that means I still have to pair them with the traditional answers like Poli/Gurdurr/Miltank which means nothing really changed for it. The way it impacts team building choices and limits builds is still just as much of a problem now as it was before the bans.
(EDIT: Vanilluxe and frosmoth both get 2hko by triple axels and gets out sped so you can't even use them as an ice resist unless your plan was to sack something and then go to them, in which case sneasels doing its job. Perrserker does a tiny bit in that its a roll to 2hko it after rocks but even as a resist that's really not where you want to be so its even less meaningful then it looked at first)

Aside from that, Sneasel never really was switching into things directly anyways so having more things in the tier that hit it for super effective damage at slower speed really doesn't change much because you don't need super effective moves to potentially OHKO Sneasel on the switch in. (Also scarf mag isn't really a set and it wasn't because of Gallade. If you wanted to put up with a rocks weakness then you're better off slapping specs on it not scarf)

I think pretty much nothing has changed for Sneasel. Our defensive options are still extremely limited to basically 3-4 pokemon, and If anything losing Gallade as a scarfer means its going to be harder to revenge kill it as the next best scarfer, rotom, doesn't even revenge kill it from full which means you're going to be even harder pressed to revenge kill a sneasel if your replacement for speed control ends up being Rotom instead of Gallade.

As a side note, I don't think mag changed at all in the current meta as Turtinator wasn't ever able to use Magmortar as set up opportunities and one less scarfer to revenge kill it really doesn't change the dynamic of it when it isn't in a speed tier that needs people to use scarfers to revenge kill it.