Metagame NP: ZU Stage 12 - Never Catch Me - Ninjask Remains Banned

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

There’s nothing else quite like Ninjask in ZU. It is by far the fastest threat in the metagame, and its combination of STAB U-turn and Swords Dance-boosted Acrobatics caught our eye when it entered the tier about a week ago. The council unanimously agreed to ban Ninjask and immediately open a suspect test for it. Going forward into this year’s ZUPL, this route would preserve the integrity of the current ZU metagame for tournaments while still allowing Ninjask on the ladder for another two weeks of testing.

To expand on Ninjask’s offensive presence, it’s safe to say counterplay is often limited to surviving a hit and attacking back, but it’s hard to catch Ninjask with its super fast U-turn. Ninjask enters play as a revenge killer to multiple staples in the tier like Sawk, Tangela, Thwackey, Jynx, and Silvally-Dark to name a few. There’s also nothing faster than Ninjask––after a Protect, even our fastest Choice Scarf Pokemon are slower. U-turn is strong in its own right, chipping walls like Miltank, Rhydon, and Stunfisk, but Acrobatics is what is ultimately too dangerous for a sweeper this fast. Ninjask is able to wear down Pokemon like Rotom, Qwilfish, and Altaria that can normally tank +2 Acrobatics. In turn, Ninjask brings in offensive support that can deal with its checks and keep momentum up, preventing any recovery or utility moves from these switch-ins in the process. Repeat this cycle and soon Ninajsk is ready to transition from a revenge killer to a sweeper. Notably, Ninjask reaches a sufficient speed tier with a minimum amount of Speed investment to outpace the likes of Alolan Persian and Alolan Dugtrio. This means Ninjask uses more bulk investment and thus can afford more setup opportunities outside of just favorable matchups. For example, Thwackey’s Knock Off is a 3HKO (with a following Grassy Glide being ineffective as well), Miltank’s Seismic Toss is a 4HKO, and Work Up Silvally-Poison’s Flamethrower is very unlikely to OHKO. These matchups and more highlight Ninjask’s legitimacy as a late-game cleaner, all the while it still performs as an excellent revenge killer in the mid-game.

Dealing with Ninjask is dependent on two factors: indirect damage and metagame adaptations. Addressing the elephant in the room, yes, Ninjask is heavily threatened by Stealth Rock. Ninjask either needs immense team support to prevent and remove Stealth Rock, or it forfeits a huge chunk of its sweeping and revenge killing potential by using Heavy-Duty Boots + Dual Wingbeat instead of itemless Acrobatics. Teams can thus still rely on Pokemon weak to Ninjask like Choice Scarf Sawk and Thievul so long as the team compensates with reliable, potentially aggressive Stealth Rock usage. Spamming U-turn also comes at the risk of adverse contact effects, as the tier is no stranger to the likes of Flame Body Rapidash, Static Stunfisk, and Rocky Helmet walls. Chip damage is dangerous for Ninjask as if enough accumulates, Ninjask could very easily lose any opportunity to set up Swords Dance. The metagame also has enough options to facilitate more countermeasures to Ninjask to prevent overcentralization. Piloswine invalidates sweeps thanks to Ice Shard, Sitrus Berry Rotom is an extra offensive check teams can fit, and Klinklang turns the tables by using Ninjask as setup fodder. Nicher counters like Coalossal, Rotom-S, and Rocky Helmet Sableye could also see more use. Alternatively, there’s ways for Pokemon weaker to Ninjask to prepare themselves; Miltank’s Double-Edge, Thwackey’s Acrobatics, and Gurdurr’s Rock Slide are potential albeit rare attacks that can catch Ninjask off guard. The point is that there are ways for existing teams and playstyles to punish Ninjask with some adaptations of their own, old or new.

• ***THIS IS NEW TO GEN 8 SUSPECTS*** Reading this is mandatory for participating in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 77 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 77 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 81. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 77 GXE will suffice.

Minimum Games Needed

GXE	minimum games
77	50
77.2	49
77.4	48
77.6	47
77.8	46
78	45
78.2	44
78.4	43
78.6	42
78.8	41
79	40
79.2	39
79.4	38
79.6	37
79.8	36
80	35
80.2	34
80.4	33
80.6	32
80.8	31
81	30

• You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be ZUNJ. For example, I might signup with the ladder account ZUNJ Ho3n.
• Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
• The aspect being tested, Ninjask, will be allowed on the ladder but NOT in any ZU tournament play.
• Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
• Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
• Unlike previous tests, we will be posting the voting identification thread immediately after this thread. Please avoid getting more games before getting confirmed.
• The suspect test will go on for about 2 weeks, lasting until July 22nd at 3 PM GMT -4, and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.

This thread will be open to allow all users to share their thoughts on this suspect test and discuss with one another their thoughts. Should you have any questions about the suspect test, feel free to message me or anyone else on the ZU council. Keep in mind that our suspect tests are decided by the community; anyone who achieves voting requisites is allowed to vote. The outcome is up to you. Happy posting and laddering!

Avoid posting one-liners or posts that do not contribute to any discussion. They will be deleted.

 

[Paratrooper69]

I believe that Ninjask is quite the tier shaking mon for ZU. A Protect + Speed Boost Ninjask is able to absolutely tear into the meta, shaking up what has always been a consensus of a good meta. Let me review my findings that I’ve noticed over the meta since it’s introduction.

one of the big 3 offensive pokemon, Sawk, has been a great pokemon for many reasons. Its Scarf antics and great attack allow it to really make the most out of being locked into a move like, say, earthquake. Qwilfish may not be a great option for taking the hit, since Sawk can use Inner Focus, invalidating all Intimidate attempts. However, Sawk also knows the ability Mold Breaker, meaning something like Rotom can’t levitate over Sawk’s now super effective earthquake. Klinklang certainly doesn’t want to switch into its attacks, and most mons don’t dare wish to get caught into its crosshairs of a Knock Off, stab CC, or a powerful EQ. And then Ninjask comes in.

Ninjask can absolutely tear one of our best offensive mons with ease, because of how predictable Sawk can be. Acrobatics users can absorb the Knock Off effortlessly, and fire back with a stab 110 Flying type attack. It’s even worse when considering that this mon can protect on a Stone Edge, outspeed 100% of the time, and straight up outperform Sawk offensively with the bonus of not being locked into a move.

The second big S tier speedster, Rotom, can easily be outpaced and potentially even outperformed, since a Uturn into Nightslash could be effective at dispatching our speedy electric ghost friend. This brings us to our final S tier mon

Klinklang absolutely takes advantage of Ninjask. With Shift Gear + a decent Electric Typing, Ninjask absolutely gets wrecked when Klinklang gets on the field. While Uturn does exist to get it out, its still a catch 22 for the bug.

Ninjask can be felt in every crack and crevice of ZU team building right now. Pokemon that can resist its attacks are starting to catch prominence, that is how overwhelming Ninjask has been getting. Rotom Fan for example, never been truly considered as a sub par pokemon, at least not compared to the original Rotom, until now. And Since Ninjask typically runs an adamant nature, a scarf Rotom Fan can get the jump on the bug, or resist an attack against a protect from Jask.

However, with all this being said, I do have one fun point to make before making closing statements. Never before have I had as much success with FlipVoltTurn teams as I have been since Jask joined in. While this is a very limited style in the tier, Jask being down here has made it a little more viable in actual game play use.

My Closing Remarks: Ninjask is a huge pressure to play around in ZU. While Ice Priority users are semi common, these answers get checked fairly easily by Sawk or Klink, leaving the room for Ninjask to clear up the rest. Honestly, a team of Jask, Sawk, Klink, Rotom, Articuno, and whatever you want for your last choice has not failed me yet. Its an unhealthy addition to the tier, and I believe we should kick it out

 

[BaitWiz]

Ever since the first of July, the shadow of a cicada that constantly accelerates every turn has lurked around every corner of the ZU ladder. Accelerating towards being one of the best mons around since day 1 of its arrival, Ninjask has quickly made its presence felt everywhere in ZU, with checks to it appearing more and more frequently on the ladder and its usage skyrocketing across the board.

Ninjask's standard no-item set is arguably its most powerful, being able to outpace every scarfer in the tier after a Protect and proceeding to tear into teams with a nasty combination of Acrobatics and UTurn. It turns one of the best mons in the tier, Sawk, into a liability for its team when Jask hits the field; furthermore it pressures a large majority of grass types in the tier and singlehandedly invalidates sun as a playstyle, for better or for worse.

Ninjask finds itself pressured hard by ice shards, but can actually invest so much into bulk that only with offensive investment can they actually threaten a kill from full hp. The trend of bulk investment continues for most of the other priority that would theoretically threaten it - Aqua Jets from the tier's several users of the move can't outright threaten it out until it is severely chipped, and in exchange Ninjask gets to bring in one of the terrifying breakers on its team for free.

The cicada is not without its weaknesses, however. Klinklang gets to abuse the hell out of it as long as it isn't coming in on a UTurn, and even if it does Klinklang shrugs it off with the combination of leftovers and its phenomenal mono steel typing. Rotom is a shaky check against it, but it does have the opportunity to come in a couple times before being in outright danger (that is, unless Ninjask forgoes one of protect/swords dance for night slash). Ninjask also hates contact effects - Rocky Helmet pushes Jask ever closer to being in priority range, while static and flame body both ruin it whenever they proc. Stealth rocks provide a constant barrier to entry to Jask while they're up, significantly neutering it's longevity as long as they remain. Lastly, most of the tier's rocks and steels can actually withstand Jask itself very well, though they falter against the rest of its team.

Therein lies the problem with Ninjask; while several mons are able to handle it defensively, Jask effortlessly brings in checks to them on a game to game basis. On the other hand, offensive counterplay to Jask mandates prior chip on it - chip that offensive teams struggle to find while having to continue to deal with the rest of its team. At this point I'm of the belief that Jask should singlehandedly be facilitating a minimum of two kills in most games that it's present in while still threatening to sweep, which is in my honest opinion far too much for one mon to be able to do within the tier.

I'm still not certain whether my final vote is for or against Ninjask to stay in the tier, but at the moment it seems too problematic to stay. We'll see if my opinion changes over the next couple of weeks, but for now that's about the extent of my thoughts on the cicada.

 

[MAB123]

I had absolutely no idea ninjask is having a suspect test until now, but I'll be happy to share my thoughts on the mon. I will be voting ban on this. It is, in theory, able to act as a backup counter to calyrex-shadow in ubers, with night slash and a +speed nature, to make it move faster than calyrex or the pokemon your up against. It is definitely a good pokemon to use in PU and NU. I think it is definitely too OP for ZU/the untiered mon metagame, so I am 100% on ban for voting.

 

[master oden]

I had absolutely no idea ninjask is having a suspect test until now, but I'll be happy to share my thoughts on the mon. I will be voting ban on this. It is, in theory, able to act as a backup counter to calyrex-shadow in ubers, with night slash and a +speed nature, to make it move faster than calyrex or the pokemon your up against. It is definitely a good pokemon to use in PU and NU. I think it is definitely too OP for ZU/the untiered mon metagame, so I am 100% on ban for voting.

What ninjask can do/does do in other metagames is not relevant to why it should be banned from ZU. Give concrete reasons on why you think ninjask is broken in specifically ZU, as comparing other metagames(let alone ubers) is both inaccurate and invalid reasons why ninjask should be banned in ZU. “I think it is definitely too OP for ZU” is not a good enough reason either. Give examples of what ninjask does, why you think it is banworthy/not banworthy for ZU, and do not use it does in other tiers as reasoning, as those and ZU are individual tiers. I’m not trying to be rude or anything here, but it’s best to make informed posts about the current state of the ZU metagame with Ninjask.

 

[MAB123]

It is way, WAY too fast for the tier, and with its base 90 attack, it can do real damage to pokemon like marowak, appletun and beheyeem. It would make sense for there to be a ZUBL, so ninjask would be the first one on it. But then there comes shedinja... lets just see what happens to him

 

[Corthius]

It is way, WAY too fast for the tier, and with its base 90 attack, it can do real damage to pokemon like marowak, appletun and beheyeem. It would make sense for there to be a ZUBL, so ninjask would be the first one on it. But then there comes shedinja... lets just see what happens to him

There already is a ZUBL and quite a few pokemon that are banned from ZU. The problem is that ZU isn't an official tier so it doesn't get displayed in the teambuilder.
You can find the list of what is banned here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ss-zu-information-hub.3663361/

 

[skrimps]

Not entirely related to the Ninjask suspect, but I’ve been enjoying Ninjask-less SS ZU a lot recently so I thought I’d share some insights I made from the ZUPL Week 1 matches. Some of these might seem obvious but I think it’s good teambuilding information, especially for newer players.

Every single team last week used a Ground-type. Balance teams are finding success with Bulky Ground + Bulky Grass + Bulky Flying, or a smaller combination of just two. Stunfisk + Tangela + Altaria appears to be the favorite, though Palossand has been a common Ground pick and Articuno a common Flying pick. Other cool options include Rhydon as the Ground, Appletun and Gourgeist as the Grass, and Cramorant as the Flying. Klinklang fits extremely well alongside these Ground / Grass / Flying cores too.

Miltank and Palossand both saw a rough win rate (~28%) in Week 1, and coincidentally were paired together a lot. Of the two, I think Miltank’s win rate is more accurate: it’s mostly being used as a fat blanket check to everything unaccounted for in the builder, which ironically leaves it susceptible to a bit of everything. Its trademark set right now also feels extremely passive. I’d expect to see this win rate stay low unless players get more creative with Miltank builds. Palossand’s role as a physical wall feels more defined, and I don’t think its win rate is indicative of its strengths in the metagame.

Articuno only had a 20% win rate compared to Altaria’s 62.5% win rate. One week obviously doesn’t reflect the entire metagame but I think it’s becoming clear that Altaria is a more solid choice for Defog. Its Dragon typing provides a plethora of good resistances, Natural Cure is simply better than Pressure, and not being 4X weak to Stealth Rock means Knock Off isn’t quite as crippling. Ice STAB is nice (especially Freeze-Dry) but defensively Articuno is susceptible to too much to consistently Defog. Also, Roosting into mono-Dragon is much better than Roosting into mono-Ice.

I think Qwilfish is really good, and I’m happy to see its Week 1 win rate reflect that. Intimidate and a Water / Poison typing are great and it has access to a bunch of strong utility moves. It’s a great pick as both a defensive core member on balance or a fast hazard-stacking pivot (or even setup sweeper) on offense. Its biggest issue is longevity but Intimidate + Black Sludge helps, and I think a defensive backbone with Wish support (maybe Kangaskhan?) could be a cool idea that's tough to break.

Silvally-Poison and Silvally-Dark are the only Silvally types worth worrying about, but I was shocked at how often Silvally builds lost.
It was often just early U-Turn chip into Rocky Helmet before turning into late game fodder. It can’t repeatedly switch into anything that isn’t resisted and even quick revenge kills are punished by faster Pokemon like Ninetales, Rapidash, or even Persian-A. I like Silvally but the metagame seems to have adapted around the common sets. I’m curious if another Silvally type could be a solution to keep the playerbase on its toes. That, or something like Sub + SD / Work Up to punish standard switch-ins or pivots into faster offensive Pokemon.

--

Lastly, it’s only Week 1 so players are choosing safer team options, but I’m excited to see Electric Terrain and Sun builds in future weeks. I think E-Terrain especially has huge potential right now, and Sun can be lethal (and cheesy) with the right match-up.

I'll probably look to do this again as the tournament evolves, so we'll see how these takes hold up.

 

[skrimps]

An update to my last post, based on Weeks 2-4 of ZUPL:

The omnipresence of Ground + Grass + Flying cores continued into Week 2. Stunfisk, Tangela, and Altaria all saw a 50% or higher winrate, and Articuno actually climbed up to a 60% win rate while being the most used Pokemon. In Weeks 3 and 4, the same idea was seen a lot but with more variance in the Pokemon used -- more Palossand > Stunfisk, more Gourgeist > Tangela, and some other cool Grass types like Exeggutor or Roselia. Articuno was again the most used Pokemon by far in Week 4 with an incredible win rate of 70%. This concept seems to be at the root of every solid build now even if specific Pokemon are changed, so I'd expect to see more of this as the tournament continues. That said, if Week 4 is indicative of how the tournament plays out, players may start to sub out members of this core for more offensive Pokemon that fill similar roles.

I was also 100% wrong about Altaria being clearly better than Articuno. I'll stand by Altaria's advantages but I sorely downplayed Articuno's value and it has proven its worth a lot in the past few weeks, especially on more offensive teams.

It's as if players were on a mission to prove me wrong. Miltank not only saw a 75% win rate in Week 2, but it was consistently pivotal in those wins just by using the standard bulky set. It was lethal against Ground + Grass + Flying cores, soaking up Grass moves with Sap Sipper and spreading Toxic. Thick Fat is obviously viable too so it can be a guessing game for opponents. Miltank saw much less usage in Week 3 but once again it wore down these cores and sported a 75% win rate. In Week 4, its win rate declined a bit but its usage was still notable. I was wrong about this Pokemon needing to switch up its role because it's been excelling since then.

People still slept on Palossand in Week 2, but Weeks 3 and 4 it was stellar. It was even was the most used Pokemon in Week 3 with a 62.5% win rate. Its fantastic bulk and longevity make it the premier physical wall in ZU. There isn't much else to say here -- Palossand is a good Pokemon.

Qwilfish saw strong usage in Week 2 with a mediocre 44% win rate, and then low usage in Week 3 with a solid 60% win rate. SD Qwilfish can break through Ground + Grass cores but it does struggle with bulkier Pokemon neutral to its STABs. Spikes + Taunt Qwilfish consistently gets at least one layer of Spikes but longevity is a big issue still, especially with the staying power of common Defog users. This Pokemon hasn't been a huge factor in most games and I'm starting to doubt its usefulness against typical balance picks.

I really like how players have used Silvally since Week 1. Apart from the usual Silvally-Poison/Dark, Silvally-Electric and Silvally-Water have been the most common and most successful. Silvally-Electric has a cool niche as a strong, fast Electric with U-Turn, letting it freely chip Stunfisk until it can KO it with coverage. Silvally-Water is genuinely the best offensive Water-type in ZU -- it's able to go physical or special, can boost either way, and hits a great Speed. Use more Silvally-Water. Silvally-Fighting has merit but will always be competing with Sawk for a slot. Silvally-Flying and Silvally-Normal saw use as well but didn't seem all that great, though I do think both have potential. Regardless, Silvally had an 83% win rate in Week 4 so these new uses of Silvally are clearly working. This Pokemon is versatile af and I'm glad to see players experimenting with that.

Lastly, it’s only Week 1 so players are choosing safer team options, but I’m excited to see Electric Terrain and Sun builds in future weeks. I think E-Terrain especially has huge potential right now, and Sun can be lethal (and cheesy) with the right match-up.

Someone brought Electric Terrain and won. Another person brought Sun and won. That is all.

----

Some other Pokemon that I had notes about...

Thwackey struggled in Week 1, but functioned pretty well in Weeks 2 and 3. My biggest concern is how unfriendly the metagame is to Grass / Dark coverage on an offensive Pokemon -- there are a lot of standard Pokemon that can shrug these moves off and threaten Thwackey out. Ridding items with Knock Off is great but outside of that Thwackey was getting exposed in Week 4 -- it only had a 20% win rate. It's better at facilitating teammates then it is sweeping itself, and so I'm curious to see how it is used in the remaining weeks.

RestTalk Circle Throw Poliwrath can sit on quite a lot of Pokemon and just shuffle them / spread burns with Scald. It's even been run with Choice Specs to abuse its great STABs, which can be especially challenging for some common Fighting-type answers to switch into (i.e. Palossand, Altaria, etc.). Poliwrath doesn't fit onto teams as easily as other standard ZU picks and it's only been netting a 50% win rate each week on low usage, but it can be extremely hard to remove under the right circumstances -- not a top threat but it's a cool pick. It's a great response to non-Wild Charge Klinklang too.

----

Finally, some cool ideas to take advantage of the current meta trends. CB Froslass can be a demon against Grass + Ground + Flying cores, punching holes with its STABs or crippling a key Pokemon for teammates to take advantage of. The Spikes set is good too, but CB is such an immediate threat to most teams. I was also really impressed with how easily Falinks tore through an opponent's team-- with the right matchup, this Pokemon can be devastating. Defiant is actually plausible too because it can reliably come in and set up on non-Hurricane Articuno. Again, use more Silvally-Water, or even try STABs + Ice Beam + Roost Cramorant if you can spare the Defog because this coverage will break a lot of fat teams.

Also, someone use Protective Pads Klingklang.

 

[Tuthur]

Hey, I wanna discuss the elephant in the room.

Klinklang is without a doubt the most centralizing and threatening Pokemon in the tier. Most of you may remember we voted on it (among other threats) when quickbanning Basculin and further actions on it have been delayed with Malamar and Ninjask suspect tests. Eventually the metagame seemed to settle down around it as structures able to effectively cover Klinklang's main sets appeared.

Currently, the main counters used for Klinklang are Palossand, Rapidash, Stunfisk, Alolan Persian, Gurdurr, Sableye, and Galarian Stunfisk, often backed up with other soft checks like Alolan Dugtrio, Coalossal, RH Miltank, Poliwrath, and Silvally-Electric. In my opinion, these make enough counterplay available for the main sets, i.e. Toxic Shift Gear and Wild Charge Shift Gear. Toxic is often pointed out as breaking Klinklang by allowing it to make too much progress versus most of its checks. While I agree that it is a great set, probably its best one, in my opinion, it is not broken. Weakening Pokemon with reliable recovery like Palossand and Rapidash with Toxic is a very slow process, and Heal Bell is extremely common in the tier, meaning you are often forced into clicking it multiple times. This means Klinklang has to come several times on the field, get hazard chips and potentially take a hit like Articuno's Freeze-Dry, wearing it down just like its checks in the long run.

However, Klinklang is not limited to Toxic vs Wild Charge, and some player have started running Facade which obliterates Rapidash after some damage and deals great damage to Stunfisk as well. Furthermore, some people are using setup moves like Magnetic Flux, Magnet Rise, and Iron Defense that have different counterplay than the standard sets (for instance they completely beat Galarian Stunfisk which is considered as the biggest counter). At the moment, these sets are quite rare and are manageable to me most of the time. However I do not like the way Klinklang can simply pick its checks and counters by running the right 4th move. I still haven't made a definitive opinion on Klinklang and the next weeks of ZUPL may change it, however, at the moment, I find Klinklang to be a little unhealthy and I wouldn't oppose a suspect test. I invite other players to share their opinion on Klinklang, so we can take the right decision regarding it.

 

[Toto]

toto post in 2022

My opinion has changed multiple times on Klinklang over the past few months, from thinking its not that great, to broken and then back to manageable again as of late. I think the meta have adjusted well to Klinklang over time with plentiful checks and counters as Tuthur outlined above. So if its not broken the other method of getting a mon banned is through it being unhealthy which I do not believe to be the case. For something to be unhealthy imo it means only having a couple of checks & counters available that you have to use on every team and said checks usually being niche mons that are only used to check the unhealthy mon and would otherwise see no usage. This does not apply to Klinklang with top checks & counters such as Stunfisk, Palossand, and Miltank being top ranking mons regardless of it Klinklang is in the tier or not. For the 4th move variation, whilst it is potentially annoying to see your Rapidash get OHKO'd by Facade or stunfisk unable to break setup Klinklang without a crit, I still believe this to be a non-issue. These 4th moves are unreliable and just mu fishing into hoping your opp brings the counter that you have tech'd for. This is further accentuated when most balance / bo teams have multiple Klinklang checks by design, especially when running these unorthodox 4th moves that gives up coverage.

So yeah leave Klinklang alone, no tiering action need to be done on it. Unban Centi instead y/y OranBerryBlissey10

 

[Jett]

Jett's Ramblings
​

Prologue

After countless attempts of Tuthur trying to get me to write a post about my thoughts on Klinklang, I have finally given in but I thought if I was going to write a post, I might as well take it one step further and talk about the entire metagame before I decide to hibernate for a several months before my next post. A fair warning that this post will contain a fair bit of rambling because 1) I like to ramble and 2) I'm somewhat dissatisfied with the current state of SS ZU (though I assume that many of the issues that plague it are as a result of SS as a whole).

Chapter I Act I : Getting into Gear

Starting off with the most controversial Pokemon in Klinklang. The above posts do a pretty good job outlining the fact that Klinklang has plentiful checks and counters, most of which are viable and easy to fit onto teams, so on paper and in practice Klinklang is not broken in a traditional sense as even as a setup sweeper, it'll struggle to break teams without a lot of setup prior (coverage is alright but it's not good enough for Klinklang to take over games immediately). It's most notorious set however, involves the use of Toxic to wear down its checks which plays a part in why Klinklang is so obnoxious to deal with. Klinklang's best answers do struggle against Toxic (, , ) and this would be way more overbearing if it weren't for the fact that clerics have become far more common as the meta has shifted towards favouring bulkier playstyles. , , and sometimes the Fairy-types (which have fallen off hard due to Klinklang usage being so high) are seen on pretty much every single balance or semi-stall team and have Heal Bell/Aromatherapy in order to support their Klinklang answers. So far all this suggests that Klinklang is manageable and that the metagame has managed to adapt to it.

Chapter I Act II : Grinding my Gears

Despite all the facts that people (including myself) have laid out, anyone whose been playing SS ZU in recent time will have experienced being on the receiving of a Klinklang sweep/clean at some point even though you made sure that you had adequate checks and counters on your team. Why is that?

Klinklang is extremely easy to support; it is arguably the easiest mon to build off of at the moment and there are plenty of ways to enable it to clean through teams. A Cleric allows Klinklang to be more proactive with attacking as there it can cleanse away Static and Flame Body procs; this is particularly useful in matchups again Stunfisk and Coalossal which lack reliable recovery. Given how well it forces out Pokemon and demands switch-ins it thrives off hazards especially in matchups against Stunfisk (which really can't afford to run Rest in the metagame). Klinklang's checks also often get overwhelmed as they usually have to cover a plethora of offensive Pokemon and the combination of Toxic Klinklang + another breaker can eventually grind down the defensive cores of teams.

A lack of offensive checks due to it outspeed scarfers at +2, can sometimes make its answers rather one dimensional. While plentiful of Klinklang answers do exist, they aren't are equal and while some of our walls like Miltank can hold off Klinklang without many boosts, teams without a middle ground defensive Pokemon can struggle as their forced to bring in their more dedicated check each time (although midground Klinklang answers dislike switching into Toxic). More specifically, offensive teams suffer in builder quite a bit against Klinklang as they can't revenge kill it but would have to have a mon tank a hit before KO'ing. This is difficult because a lot of the Pokemon that outspeed Klinklang before a boost, drop to its attacks at +1 with a bit of help from hazards, or in Alolan Dugtrio's case Life Orb recoil. For this reason, they usually opt for Rapidash every time since it's by far the best of the potential candidates but it does mean that the playstyle is certainly more limited in what it can do, given the horse can also be a momentum sink at times which is ironic given the playstyle.

Chapter I Act III: Gearing Down

While Klinklang isn't broken in the same way most setup sweepers are when they're too overbearing since it can't just perfectly clean through teams, I do think the metagame needs some action taken on it at the very least; a suspect would definitely be a step in the right direction. I think Klinklang can be quite unhealthy when it comes to teambuilding; offensive teams lack options to deal with it particularly, while defensive teams are able to shut down Klinklang in the early game but often trade a lot of momentum in order to do so, which can leave them vulnerable to other threats. While Klinklang does have these adequate checks that can handle it, many do suffer vs Toxic specifically and being worn down by other threats due to their lack of recovery, so teams usually default to a select few instead. That being said, I don't think a Klinklang suspect alone would turn the metagame into a good state. Obviously if its deemed broken/unhealthy, something should be done about it regardless of the potential consequences (looking at Alcremie and Jynx here) but the metagame as a whole doesn't feel great.

Chapter I Act IV: UnBalanced?

SS as a whole has slowed metagames down a lot, and ZU managed to avoid this phenomenon for quite some time; in fact sometimes you'll hear users such as myself praise former metagames like the pre-ZUPL III one as being far more enjoyable than the current metagame. I think it's not necessarily a bad thing to have a metagame which favours balance and fatter teams in general more than other playstyles but aside from the cheese offense styles, pure offense as we know it is certainly at its worst. Part of that is because of Klinklang, part of that is because of Sawk; that's already 2 slots which are quite limited and defensive teams manage these threats a lot easier. Part of that is because we've lost certain Pokemon to PU and have banned others which have influenced our metagame to become a bit more slow.

Defensive cores are very much thriving at the moment and the metagame puts such a focus on longevity, every balance team or slower has a cleric, they run at least 3 or so Heavy-Duty Boots users and the majority of the game is about using Toxic PP to slowly chip away at Pokemon while trying to avoid the opponent from doing the same. While this can definitely be argued to be a metagame which requires a fair bit of skill to manoeuvre around since it forces long term planning, in reality it becomes a very mundane task and it's probably why players often opt away from such strategies despite them having extremely solid track records. I don't think Balance is broken but rather the state of the metagame is pretty undesirable for a lot of players and it would be better if more offensive styles worked most consistently as they currently struggles with covering offensive threats while managing to carry their own firepower in order to break past walls.

As for a solution, I'm pretty unsure or even if people find this to be a non-issue, then it doesn't need solving. Not sure about unbans myself. They could be a neat idea but I'm worried they'd still be overbearing, although some people seemed to really be fond of the idea of freeing some of our banlist earlier in the year. It doesn't really make sense either to ban anything; walls like Articuno and Tangela are completely fine. More so, we're getting to the end of the generation now, and I would like to get SS ZU in a state where players actually enjoy it enough to be willing to still play it when the Gen 9 rolls around. Old gens in ZU have definitely been quite a success this year, and SM ZU had always managed to capture the hearts of players despite being a past gen for several years now, so hopefully SS ZU can follow the trend.


No clue if there is a Chapter II of this given how my posts have become way more inconsistent.

 

[Jett]

Hi frens, Jett here and welcome to Player Pokemon of the Week. This is a one off special where we interview a Pokemon rather than a player. This time around our guest is one of the best mixed walls in ZU and by far the best blanket check against non-committal offensive threats. Please give a warm welcome to none other than...

Miltank
Most well known for: Being very difficult to break down while also annoying its switch-ins.
​

Hi, Miltank could you give us a brief introduction about yourself.

...

Ah that's right, I don't have a guest but I can at least monologue about why Miltank should be considered for a suspect test.

Before I continue, crediting my motivation to write this post to Greybaum. Him and I had a good conversation recently and he brought up that Miltank should be suspected if anything, and I am pretty behind a Miltank suspect myself. That being said this post will just be my own thoughts. I initially thought the idea would be too unpopular to be worth writing about but here we are...

In my previous post, I stated that the metagame favoured balance and semi-stall teams but one of the main factors I didn't mention too much was Miltank. Miltank is an incredible wall, that glues fatter teams exceptionally well together thanks to access to Heal Bell and Stealth Rock (though the former is heavily preferred in the current metagame). Unlike most other common walls, its fast enough so that it can easily creep mid speed breakers that can cause issues for Pokemon like Tangela and Articuno. It also doesn't have to worry about Knock Off as much compared to the aforementioned walls, making Miltank an excellent choice to be paired with them for defensive cores. These factors allow Miltank to be the best middle ground option for switching into offensive threats (scouts Klinklang, Rapidash and even some Silvallies). However, it's not only great defensively...

The combination of Toxic and Seismic Toss means that its always making some sort of progress against opposing Pokemon, and while other Pokemon such as Clefairy, Miltank is superior in its stats and this combination is far more useful on a Normal-type since Miltank doesn't invite Toxic immune Pokemon in unlike Clefairy does. The most common Toxic immune Pokemon like Skuntank, Silvally-Poison, and Klinklang lack reliable recovery so Seismic Toss would do a considerable amount every time. Qwilfish can Taunt and Pain Split against Miltank to shut it down but it will have to trade most of its health to do so, while Roselia and Golbat are far more niche options (and the former probably loses the frequent pp wars in the tier since it relies on Synthesis). Some Ghost-types like Sub NP Rotom and Taunt Froslass could take advantage of Miltank but they can't reliable switch into it without a free switch-in due to Toxic completely ruining their gameplans.

Of course, Miltank isn't without its flaws. The strongest special attackers can take it down in one or two hits reliably and the RestTalk Fighting-types are reliable long term answers into it. Pokemon with Fighting coverage in general will always be troublesome for it and because it relies on consistent damage, you do get a couple switch-in opportunities to punish it. Clefairy can also ignore its Toxic and will eventually beat it one on one with Toxic PP being greater than Heal Bell's. The issue is that Miltank is usually paired with very reliable answers into the few Pokemon that immediately threaten it out; Articuno is a great special blanket check and Tangela is a great physical one. Miltank is the least abusable wall on these bulkier teams being the best well rounded and far less vulnerable to any potential lures. Miltank essentially is able to beat out the majority of Pokemon in a 1v1 situation while Pokemon is a 6v6, it becomes even more obnoxious to deal with when it has more walls that are more tailored for specific Pokemon surrounding it.

A Miltank ban could help to alleviate the pressure balance and semi-stall teams can put out against offensive teams and allow for more Pokemon to fair at least neutrally into them. Currently, offense struggles a fair bit against these bulkier teams unless their breaker manages to get a good matchup but with Miltank being able to cover so many threats by its lone self, this is rarely ever the case. While it's not exactly broken by definition, I do think the metagame would benefit from at least one of the defensive blanket checks going and I feel that Miltank is the most unhealthy candidate of the available pool of options.

 

[BaitWiz]

In my time playing SS ZU and throughout ZUPL IV, there are three Pokemon that have sprouted out as problematic to me: Klinklang, Miltank, and Articuno. The last could be a surprise to some, seeing how its state is (arguably) significantly healthier than the other two, but regardless I wish to expand on my thoughts about why Articuno is a threat that could easily move from strong to broken after one of the other two end up being removed from the metagame.

Articuno is limited heavily by the existence of Klinklang; Klang singlehandedly punishes Articuno *extremely* hard for using Roost, Heal Bell, and Defog, three moves it wants to be able to use often to assist its team, by being able to get off a free Substitute or Shift Gear upon its inevitable switch out. In addition, it's a phenomenal switch in to Freeze-Dry, taking 17% when switching into typical defensive sets.

Miltank is a phenomenal partner for Articuno, but it's often a nemesis for it as well. With phenomenal speed and thick fat, Miltank stands in Articuno's way with the threats of Toxic and Seismic Toss damage, neither of which Articuno's team appreciates all that much. It also takes very little on switch-in from Freeze Dry and punishes UTurn with its usual Rocky Helmet. Articuno's only real way of making progress against Miltank is by hitting it with Toxic on the switch-in, but even that isn't ideal since it means Articuno can't fulfill its cleric duties or keep itself healthy when doing so.

Outside of these two, it must be said that Articuno has very clear cut weaknesses. Knock Off is a death sentence for this ice bird, losing its invaluable Heavy-Duty Boots. Toxic, while not immediately crippling, cuts into cleric PP and puts Articuno on a timer, allowing more room for opposing teams to maneuver around it. Invested super-effective physical attacks from mons like Rapidash and Dugtrio-A and high-power neutral physical attacks from the likes of Sawk and Froslass often threaten Articuno out as well.

Alas, this is where the weaknesses end and the core of why I feel that Articuno is problematic. Articuno's struggles against Knock Off are limited when adding the right Silvally Form or a solid Knock Off absorber like Palossand or Uxie to your team as they effectively discourage Knock Off to begin with, indirectly making life easier for Articuno. While Articuno is no Ninjask, it can often still find spots to be effective even after its boots are removed due to its phenomenal special bulk since it takes some uninvested neutral hits so well.

Here's a couple of interesting calcs to expand on this point.

Special Attacks

4 SpA Alcremie Dazzling Gleam vs. 248 HP / 204+ SpD Articuno: 60-72 (15.6 - 18.7%) -- possible 6HKO
252 SpA Skuntank Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 204+ SpD Articuno: 64-76 (16.7 - 19.8%) -- guaranteed 6HKO
0 SpA Stunfisk Discharge vs. 248 HP / 204+ SpD Articuno: 92-110 (24 - 28.7%) -- 96.9% chance to 4HKO
0 SpA Palossand Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 204+ SpD Articuno: 55-66 (14.3 - 17.2%) -- possible 6HKO

Lastly, Articuno also sponges some neutral physical attacks surprisingly well while it does still have its boots. Again, a few more calcs to demonstrate this.

Physical Attacks

252+ Atk Qwilfish Liquidation vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Articuno: 123-145 (32.1 - 37.8%) -- 94.6% chance to 3HKO
4 Atk Silvally-Fighting Multi-Attack vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Articuno: 124-147 (32.3 - 38.3%) -- 97.9% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Thwackey Wood Hammer vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Articuno in Grassy Terrain: 156-185 (40.7 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Gourgeist-Small Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Articuno: 135-160 (35.2 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

I do believe that, *as it stands,* Articuno is in a fine state compared to the other two Pokemon mentioned. I don't feel that it's a Pokemon that is too powerful or is about to break the metagame as it stands. However, long term, I do worry about Articuno potentially overwhelming the metagame should the right check or two be banned, and it should definitely be kept in mind as we look towards more suspect testing in the future.