Metagame NP: ZU Stage 1 - Introduction - Ludicolo Banned @63

[Empoleolindo]

Hi guys, that's my best team on ZU and I would like to share, I'm at #5 on ladder


https://pokepast.es/834e3d39be6f84b5

How to use

Trubbish: Most of the times the starter, only toxic spikes if the enemy team does not have a lot of levitate/steel/poison type, otherwise just spikes and play with pain split because you can end with kill after aftermath
Dusclops: There's no spinner in ZU that can beat Dusclops, so don't be afraid to check, the 48 atk is to one shot G-Mime with Poltergeist, is the only spd wall, so try to keep him alive with rest
Hippopotas: Sand Stream is great to more cheap damage, whirlwind is to catch setup mon and be sure that everyone is a lit bit damaged
Mr. Mime Galar: commum spinner, but with focus blast to surprise Klang, other steel, Ice-vally and Lickitung
Linoone-Galar: Knock off is king in a land of eviolite, really fast, great late game sweeper and trick is to some boring stall that might come in
Ludicolo: Speed control, great late game sweeper and great starter, hits everyone with neutral or super effective

Weakness

KLANG: if there's a Klang you HAVE to keep hippo alive to beat him, there's no other that can
Lickitung: hope this get banned, but until there you don't have taunt, setup and it have heal bell, so use everything to kill him FAST

 

[Apagogie]

General Thoughts

I'm very happy with the metagame we are experimenting right now. After the month of June which has been the most chaotic month of ZU history with changes every five days, we finally have something stable for at least the whole july month. A transition is happening, we had a metagame where HO was the most dominant playstyle with thievul and thwackey and now, it goes to something bulkier but also more diverse where plenty different playstyles become viable. Balance, Stall, Rain, webs which were underused previously do a big come back and it's in my opinion for the best. I always disliked a metagame 'farwest' where you had to kill quickly mons of the opposite team. More reflexion is always welcome in a competitive game.

There is also a smallest transition but which stays important to notice, it's the transition of a metagame centred around physical mons to a metagame where special mons are more and more common. It started peacefully in June where we lost two Vally in exchange of Thievul and then Kadabra. Physical mons such as Raboot, Persian, Thwackey or Gourgeist stay however common. With shifts of this month, it's an other story. With the exception of Gourgeist-Large and Farfetch'd, every other mon we got are special : Ludicolo, Mime, Mime-Galar, Gothitelle, Shiinotic, Corsola, Palpitoad. We also only have one Vally left with Silvally-Ice, which is also often regulary mixed or special even if physical sets stay more common. This special shift will influence the meta for sure.

New mons

Ludicolo
Only Spd Sliggo, Shedinja and AV Ludicolo are able to switch on this thing under rain. Even max spd Dusclops is 2HKO after rocks by Hydro Pump, other mons are deleted by weather ball or strongly weaken. It's therefore a big threat in the metagame and bordeline unhealthy to deal with. Rain is however not as common as we can think which is in my opinion due to the presence of Mime-G in most of teams currently which is able to provide certainly the best offensive anti-rain measure with the combinaison of rapid spin/freeze-dry/focus blast. Auto-rain Ludicolo is still possible, at the cost to rely only on Hydro-Pump/Surf and not Weather Ball, which stays very correct. I have mixed feeling on this mon with on paper something which is almost unmanageable and a lack of use in practise.

Mr. Mime-Galar
Mr. Mime-Galar is a new figure of the ZU metagame. It provides a great support to the team in being able to combine a good spinner, sometimes a wincondition, speed control in one mon. The fact that it's able to outspeed Eiscue at +1 in speed no-noice is relevant as well. Some people say they struggled to deal with Mr. Mime-Galar, it was personally not my case, it's notably unable to break Dusclops and weak against bullet punch/first impression. At the contrary, it's in my opinion a great addition to ZU since we lacked of hazard removers previously. Lets wait and see how it evolves in the future.

Mr. Mime
Mr Mime from Kanto is a really good mon but suffers from the Silvally syndrom. Since you can only play one Mime by team, you would generally choose to play its Galar from which is simply able to provide more utility with rapid spin and a better speed tier. Anyway, I think regular Mr. Mime beneficts a lot for a choice specs set since fairy resists are uncommon and on mons without recovery (outside of rest talk klang). It can also act as a surprising good answer against uncommon mons such as mono attacker sliggoo or hakamo-o. Scary mon for sure but it's a bit early to determine how it will influence the metagame.

Gourgeist-Large
Certainly one of the best mon of the metagame. I still think this pokemon is really powerful, specially since we don't have anymore tangela in the metagame. The presence of ice types obviously hurts but its ability to wallbreaker stays very scary. It wasn't a drop so everybody is not aware that this mon is playable, which explains maybe why I haven't seen many gourgeist played until here. Usage doesn't mean viability though and I'm sure it will be one of our most effective wallbreaker. Its defensive set will stay good, notably against other Gourgeist-Large band but certainly a bit less common than before since there are less mons it is able to counter.

Dusclops
Dusclops is back and Dusclops is better than it has ever been this generation. It's one of the best Mime-Galar counter, it beats reliably every spinners we have and its presence alone makes teams stack hazard more powerful than they should be in theory. The fact that we got so many special attackers this shift is also a gift for its viability. It also learns poltergeist now which is eventually good for more offensive sets or just to one shot Mime. A good double switch is still able to punish it, don't get me wrong but it is one of the new face of ZU. It's also obviously a big buff for stall teams.

Shiinotic
If I wrote a post before Gourgeist-Large comes back in ZU, this part would be really different. Shiinotic is effective to deal with physical attackers such as Persian or Linoone, it offers a nice utility thanks to its fairy type to pressure dragon types now that togetic is gone and spore/leech seed stay nice utility moves.

However, Shiinotic stays relatively frail, which means it loses two important match ups than itemless Gourgeist-Large doesn't lose : against band Gourgeist-large and against machoke flame orb. Considering these two mons are the best physical attackers in the tier right now if we don't count Silvally-Ice, it's a big issue. Also, defensive sets are easier to switch into than it looks like, notably with spd dusclops or klang. Offensive sets have maybe a better potential even if being walled by Ivysaur or gloom sucks. Shiinotic is definitely a weird case of a good mon which is in a metagame which is not kind with it. It risks to hurt its viability a lot.

Corsola & Palpitoad
Two water types rockers we are glad to get. Even if the first one is more common in balance and the second in more offensive teams, I group them together because they are nice additions to the metagame. They come in a metagame where Ludicolo, Mime-G, Gourgeist-Large, Machoke are available so it definitely sucks but more options are always welcome.


Playstyles

Stack hazards
I'm glad Empoleolindo posted his team because I made a team very similar to this with Koffing instead of Trubbish. The combinaison of the departure of Togetic and the arrival of Dusclops and Mime-Galar buffed heavily teams stack hazards. Most teams rely now on a spinner unable to break Dusclops/Shedinja to remove spikes&t-spikes, which makes this playstyle painful to deal with. The fact that our other defogers remaining share at least an ice weakness doesn't help either considering how strong Mime-G is and that Silvally-Ice is our last Vally. If you need to pressure this archetype, I think the best way is to focus on strong wallbreakers and manage somehow to remove hazards, which is not always easy but it's possible.

Webs
I'm not a big player of webs myself so I won't write a lot on this subject. However, several people built successful webs teams lately notably thanks to Gothitelle and Farfetch'd which is apparently better than expected . Machoke Flame Orb, which is one of the most dangerous mon to switch into, beneficts specially a lot from this archetype. Sticky webs have been really underplayed during the month of june so it's a good news for players of this archetype.

Stall
With Pyukumuku, Stall is back and even if people haven't played that a lot since it's not specially the funniest archetype to play when new drops are available, you cannot ignore anymore its existence. Its usage in tournaments will rise after a relatively low usage in zult, being only played three times if I'm not mistaken. I don't think teams are prepared yet to face that so we should be specially careful about this in our teambuilding. I think we have currently necessary tools to deal with that but if this playstyle becomes oppressive, the community will see what can be done.

Some winners

Shedinja
Shedinja is surprisingly a legit pick in teams outside of stall right now. With Boots, it's able to switch far more often than in previous gen and the recent buff of poltergeist makes it more difficult to switch into. More important, its ability to counter Ludicolo, Mime-Galar, regular Mime without mystical fire, and also Eiscue, offensive Wartortle sets makes Shedinja really antimeta at the moment. It is able with some double switchs to weaken quickly a well-built team. It's a Pokemon which stays difficult to use and easy to lure obviously but it's probably the metagame where it has been the most viable.

Silvally-Ice
It shouldn't be a surprise for anybody but Silvally-Ice is our last Vally remaining which means it doesn't have competition anymore. Physical, mixed, special sets are all viable and it does what Vally has always done before. People need to manage only one Vally though so it shouldn't be dificult to find answers but it stays nevertheless really threating in late game. Especially, teams stack hazards often lack of a consistent answer since they have limited slots. It's a top tier of our metagame.

A loser

Eiscue
Eiscue hasn't been consistent lately, it has been only used twice in zult without killing more than one mon in the whole tournament. These shifts aren't kind with it either. Pyukumuku means the come back of a hard counter. Mime-Galar is faster by one point than Eiscue at +1 if Ice face is not broken and is able to revenge kill it easily. Priorities such as Shadow sneak from Gourgeist Large Band or Bullet punch and First Impression are more common. Hyper offenses are generally less consistent than in the past, Mime-Galar nerfs Screen teams with its ability. Also, the only HO which really become better with this shift are rain and webs, two playstyles where Eiscue is rarely played inside and which doesn't struggle to deal with the penguin either. Only the fact that new mons appear in a tier means a power creep and previous mons become automatically less amazing than they were before. I think it's really a hard time for Eiscue which is hard to be played consistently and which stays unreliable.

 

[5gen]

Third quick ban slate announcement!

The recent tier shifts shook up the metgame greatly and introduced serious threats in Ludicolo, Mr. Mime, and Mr. Mime-Galar. In addition, Gourgeist-Large returned to ZU from PUBL after PU unbanned it. The ZU council will have until Friday to vote and then the results will be announced. After that, the Viability Rankings will be opened and nominations can resume as normal.

One last thing, czim will be joining us as a rotational council member for this vote. czim has been heavily involved and active since the start of the generation and is vastly knowledgeable on the current metagame (as well as tiering knowledge). Rotational council will also be a thing this generation as it was in early gen 7 ZU. Subsequently, council members will keep an eye out for active and knowledgeable members of the community.

Looking forward to seeing your guys' thoughts, I'll also be posting my thoughts this week.

 

[AllTerrainVen0moth]

Im pretty sure we all agree ludicolo needs to ludiGOgo. It just sweeps everything.

I dont thing galar mime is banworthy, it doesnt have that good of a special attack and doesnt have thst goodmof a defensive typing.

 

[Procrastinasian]

I’ve played with every new pokemon in the new drops to some extent, and my conclusions are as such for the four that are being considered:
- Ban. Supporting a ban is the reality that this pokemon has only 1 pokemon that completely shuts it down, and it’s the av version of itself. Anything else that beats it handily is a priority user, primarily farfetch’d, once it sets up rain. Any other pokemon that really has a good chance to wear it down (gloom and ivy) is looking to take massive crippling damage from an ice beam, which in most sets other than max hp and spdef, will get 2hko’d. The counterargument is that we have two/three good and decently common poison types that still, with good evs, will defeat ludi, as well as the bird and the ditto play that pretty much beat it every time. However, I believe that full special defensive and hp on gloom and ivy is not worth it in the long run, just to ensure you barely beat ludi.
- Do not Ban. Easily the most obvious decision of the three, Mr. Mime is overshadowed by its counterpart in speed, freeze-dry, and rapid spin. Hardly everyone uses this pokemon right now, and we have yet to see what its full potential is in the metagame. (And we probably never will)
- Do not Ban. Unbelievably enough, I can’t justify a ban, when every common priority move is super effective against it (barring persian who just outspeeds and kills regardless), clops is always a special wall and blocks spin, and oranguru beats any set handily. Our best rapid spinner right now, with a versatile movepool that still unfortunately can’t 2hko dusclops with life orb shadow ball even at +2. It’s really solid, but at the same time so many relevant pokemon can beat it. Good but not broken.
:gourgeist-large: - Ban. Gourgeist-L, also known as God’s Wrath, Murder Pumpkin 9000, and most commonly as “Big Gourg, the Destroyer of ZU”, is a reason some people have just decided to forgo an item entirely on one of their pokemon, primarily another Gourgeist-L because if Poltergeist doesn’t kill you, Power Whip will. Other, more rational players opt instead for the only other option, Vullaby, sometimes referred to as the Godslayer. Unfortunately, Godslayer only wins if Gourg doesn’t pull a Loki on you, or throws a purple dot at your face. Imagine the satisfaction one Vullaby user has as he switches in Vullaby, thinking that his opponent is forced to switch, only to have a choice band swapped onto his sole defogger, or the purple mark of doom shot at it. Truly soul crushing is this pokemon, and there is nothing in this tier that can beat every common set. I love it to pieces, but it’s too good for this world.

 

[Procrastinasian]

Another feeling I’m getting is that is way too centralizing to the tier. Here are some reasons I think it should be nominated:

Poltergeist and Knock Off, the two moves that really threaten clops consistently, totally negate each other, resulting in a player to have to commit to one strategy fully in order to truly threaten Dusclops.

Dusclops is virtually impenetrable from the special side, barring set up. However, even through set up, if the pokemon setting up has no access to substitute, it can get hit by toxic, therefore severely crippling it especially if clops switches out to something like pyuku. Notably, galarian mr. mime with life orb at +2 does not even ohko clops with shadow ball, while clops can simply poltergeist it and ohko.

Dusclops is a spinblocker, and by far the best one. Set up hazards, run clops and pyuku, and your chances of winning drastically increase.

While Clops checks a bunch of threatening pokemon, even partially checking ludicolo, whilst handily beating any special attacker without access to trick or taunt, I believe that simply not adding dusclops to your team is losing a significant edge in any situation. Thus, if every good team basically runs clops, there’s justification for it to be suspect tested.

 

[Celever]

- Ban: I mean this isn't exactly a hot take. As Procrastinasian says, the best Ludi answer is AV Ludi and that's really bad. Sliggoo also works but is a niche pick outside of answering Ludi, sort of in a "use Seaking to counter Rotom-Frost" way from back in Gen 7. Centralising for now, but we should keep it in mind. As ZU gets powercrept by further drops, I think Ludicolo will become manageable and would be a healthy presence in the meta to unban. But in the name of our current tour scene, it's worth banning this for now.

- No Ban: Honestly kinda surprised to see this on here. It has the same issues it always has -- no physical defence making it susceptible to priority and difficult to get on the field, relying on Focus Miss to cover quite a lot of solid defensive counterplay creating inconsistency, and being outmatched by rival scarfers hurting its matchups. I honestly think it's probably around A- in the viability rankings and not really centralising, so this isn't worthy of a ban.

- No Ban: This is fine either way but I think Mime-Galar is a positive presence in the tier just for diversifying our hazard control. This is one of the Pokémon lending more validity to balance and (semi-)stall because its defensive counterplay tends to drain momentum, but it's also susceptible to priority and being worn down, so offence has a fine matchup against it too. Having to choose between Rapid Spin for utility and Focus Blast for coverage also keeps this balanced IMO, since it's not quite a good enough sweeper or cleaner to always opt for Focus Blast and when it uses Rapid Spin instead there's a lot more defensive counterplay. This is definitely really good but I don't think it's centralising, and it's actively healthy for the meta and for diversifying teambuilding.

- No Ban: While we still have Dusclops and Pyukumuku, I don't think Gourgeist can be banned honestly. This is pretty essential to have in the meta for that reason alone, since Dusclops and Pyuku are so dummy thick with good synergy, Gourgeist being able to beat both of them makes it necessary to keep around. If this gets banned, I think a Dusclops ban necessarily has to follow since Gourgeist is one of the only consistent answers to it that aren't worn down by its teammates and hazards too much.

Anyway, Dusclops rant aside, Gourgeist is manageable with its sets having different counterplay. Band is arguably its most consistent for breaking its standard defensive counterplay, but unless it locks into Shadow Sneak it's susceptible to quite a lot of our scarfers and other revengers. Opting for LO instead of Band is a considerable power drop that removes important utility, in particular its cleaning potential with Shadow Sneak. I think this is fine and another healthy presence in the metagame for diversifying teambuilding options.

------------------------------------

- Include on the slate: I agree with Procrastinasian above. I might just be missing something, but it feels like the only truly consistent counterplay to Dusclops besides Gourgeist is Taunt, and while we have valid Taunt users (Krokorok, Vullaby) it's centralising to need to include one on every team. I think what pushes Dusclops into the potentially broken category is that it doesn't care about most stallbreaking methods. Toxic (Spikes) don't matter because it Rests the poison off, and setup sweepers have an arguably bad matchup because it can get off a Wisp to neuter the physical setup sweeper or Toxic to remove a WinCon from the opponent, straining offence's matchup against stall considerably. Answers like Toxic Orb Linoone-G are weak to residual damage when they have to switch in every time Clops is sent out because it walls the rest of the team. Most importantly, it doesn't actually become frail enough once Knock Off has been used on it for it to be considered a neutralisation, particularly because our physical Dark- and Ghost-Type options are fairly weak offensively. If nothing else, can people share their Dusclops counterplay? :P

 

[missangelic]

bad meme

I hate to be an echo in this, but Ludicolo is absolutely too much for the current ZU metagame. Anything that isn't 2HKO'd can barely or simply cannot threaten Ludicolo back in any meaningful way. Offensively checking it in Rain is ridiculous too, as it's the fastest viable Swift Swimmer, it resists balance icon Machoke's BP, and it outspeeds everything that isn't an already statused Linoone-Galar, Choice Scarf Persian (which, ew), and Choice Scarf Drakloak (double ew). Ludicolo has decent enough bulk to almost always set up rain, especially in the face of passive Pokemon and the lower power level of ZU. Persian can do a fine chunk to it with Silk Scarf Fake Out, but you're still sacking your cat to it. Ironically enough, the only Pokemon that can truly deal with Ludicolo's coverage is... another Ludicolo. I shouldn't have to point out that something like that is just screaming BAN.

:gourgeist-large:

worse meme

I've played a few games both with and against Gourgeist-Large and it's honestly such a great wallbreaker now with access to Poltergeist. This isn't necessarily to say that the bulky Wisp set is terrible... but why would you use it when Gourgeist's coverage puts so much pressure on defensive builds? As mentioned by Celever and in our talk on the ZU Discord (which, please join by the way, I need a bigger audience for my clownery and discussion), Pyukumuku and Dusclops are so strong as a core, and Gourgeist handily dismantles them. Choice Band devours plenty of Pokemon, and it's honestly not that difficult to just practice proper item control in the builder by opting not to slap Knock Off on whatever can learn it (which can open up interesting other options). However, Life Orb offers far more flexibility to Gourgeist in switching up its move choice at the cost of some power, but it can even run Synthesis to reduce the recoil effect. To be completely honest though, I don't think Gourgeist is healthy for the metagame right now. Its defensive counterplay is severely limited (think: Zweilous and Vullaby), and while you can offensively check it with choices like Torracat, Rufflet (if Gourg is Adamant), special Glalie, and Silvally-Ice, they all take a ton from Shadow Sneak, which threatens other options as well (hence why I prefer Life Orb). I don't see Gourgeist-Large being a healthy force for the metagame, and while its wallbreaker-ing and stallbreaker-ing is less insane than Ludicolo, I think it just puts too much pressure on offensive and defensive builds at the moment. Please BAN this, though maybe at a later date with a few more drops it could be healthy.

this one is niche but good

Put your hands together for Clown Number 1! Mr. Mime fills some interesting roles for ZU, being one of the only viable offensive Fairy type in the tier, and a specially strong one at that. Mime can run a variety of sets between NP, Scarf, Specs, and even an all out attacker set (living up to the clown name with that one). Mime brings a good amount of utility between Trick, H-Wish, Encore, and Taunt, which all help shut down some of the stall archetypes that have risen again with the re-introduction of Pyukumuku and Dusclops (foreshadowing). Mime puts pressure on offensive and defensive teams alike with its Nasty Plot set, which has next to perfect coverage between DGleam, Psychic, and Mystical Fire. Mime is also extremely fast and probably the best Scarfer right between its coverage utility. Its special bulk and typing are relatively decent too, giving it a few nice switch-in or setup opportunities if it isn't acting as a strict revenge killer. Speaking of revenge killing, only Persian, Drakloak, Linoone-Galar, its Galarian cousin, and Silvally-Ice naturally outspeed non-Scarf variants, with Scarf'd Torracat, Gastly, and Lampent giving it a rather warm hello as well. Most of these mons put a good amount of offensive pressure on Mime and its poor physical bulk. On top of that, Mime is also very weak to the priority that currently exists in the tier, hating the popularity of Machoke, Persian, Maractus, and Gourgeist-Large, as well as more niche options like Shedinja, Honedge, and Sudowoodo. You can probably see from the length of this block that I've both talked my way into thinking that Mr. Mime is broken, and then talked my way back out of it. However, I think Mime just puts more than a healthy amount of pressure on defensive teams and is very centralizing and dangerous for offense teams. I think that this one is less clear cut than the former two, but I would not be surprised by a BAN.

poketuber clickbait vids be like

Clown number 2, you're up! You'd think that with everything I said about Mime classic taste, I would think that Mime-G is broken too, right? However, I think it ends up being more balanced and healthy for the ZU metagame. Mime-G's coverage isn't near as good as its Kantonian counterpart, and it also has to run Freeze-Dry over the more powerful Ice Beam in order to deal with Pyukumuku. On top of that, Mime-G is a rocks-weak NFE spinner, meaning it has to choose between running Boots for consistency and longevity, or Eviolite for... the same things. I honestly prefer Boots, but this is where I think Mime-G is balanced: it has to make too many compromises to be fully broken. It struggles to run a power boosting item because it needs Boots or strong hazard removal (which, besides itself, is not frequent in ZU at the moment), its coverage is shakier (Focus Blast), gives up on power (Freeze-Dry, Psyshock), and doesn't break cores apart in the same way. On top of that, Mime always wants to run more moves than the slots it has, or it gets shoehorned into a spinner role just because it's the best option we have at the moment. It's also extremely frail, weak to all forms of priority, and gets smacked by tier speedsters Persian, Drakloak, and Linoone-G. I would prefer to see a NO BAN vote on this one, mostly due to its mix of limitations and the healthy additions it gives to ZU.

double feature, double trouble

It's not new to say that ZU stall has seen a burst in popularity again now that Dusclops and Pyukumuku are back in the fold. Dusclops has exceptional bulk, two great options for status, consistent damage options, and a workable defensive typing, particularly for spinblocking. Pyukumuku synergizes almost perfectly with Dusclops, providing Unaware in a tier notably lacking common setup that can break through it. However, neither of them are completely perfect. Pyukumuku goes belly up against any mon running Taunt or Substitute, while Dusclops has unreliable recovery in either Restalk or Pain Split, and can't do much to either Normals or Ghosts depending on which consistent move it decides to run. I think Pyuk in particular is currently thriving in a tier that has no, has lost, or is due to lose a lot of its offensive Grass types or Electric types. However, both options tend to be extreme momentum sinks and almost necessitate that if you're running both, you're running some type of Stall build. Stall can run into some consistency issues currently, as it yearns for better Toxic Spike options than Skorupi or Trubbish. On top of that, while Lickitung is a great new addition for Stall cores, they're still just as reliant as ever on keeping their Eviolites, yet still struggling against the current big breakers. I've already made an older post about checking Pyuk, but Eiscue, Gloom, Cufant, Ivysaur, Maractus, Duosion, Gastly, Glalie, and Natu are all still great options for making its little cucumber life hard. It's annoying, but not broken. Dusclops is a bit more difficult to defend, but its passivity and tendency to drain momentum by needing to Rest are what make me take the stance that it's not broken. Knock Off is still very common, it's very reliant on team support to function, and gets worn down super easily for how it's supposed to take hits. Look at both of these if you'd like, but ultimately I think they're just strong in the current meta rather than broken.

 

[Tuthur]

Already before its PU ban, Gourgeist was imo broken. Very few Pokémon in ZU can resist Poltergeist and Power Whip, making Gourgeist one of the best wallbreakers in the tier with a few counters like itemless Gourgeist, itemless Shiinotic, Vullaby, Gloom, and Zweilous. Gourgeist's defensive sets are not a problem, as is the Choice Band set, which although very dangerous relies on prediction and can rarely afford to click Shadow Sneak. However, the Life Orbe sets do not have this flaws and can wallbreak efficiently while keeping longevity thanks to Synthesis. Moreover, Weakness Policy sets make Gourgeist a very effective sweeper in very offensive teams, such as Web Offenses which have recently undergone an usage boost. While it's a shame to lose a wallbreaker like Gourgeist, which serves as a check for many threats like Machoke and Mr Mime, and gets past some of the more annoying walls like Pyukumuku and Dusclops, the absence of Gourgeist will also open the door to new ways of defeating these Pokémon. BAN

Ludicolo in the rain is the biggest danger in ZU, overtaking Mr Mime after a Nasty Plot or Silvally-Ice after a Swords Dance. Water/Ice/Grass offers perfect coverage except for Shedinja. In the rain, very very few Pokémon can take two attacks from Ludicolo or outspeed it. Everything has been said before tbh. ZU just lacks tools to play arround it. BAN

It's a bit of a surprise for me to see Mr. Mime on this quickban list. Although on paper it is very dangerous, playing it means giving up the best hazard control in offense, the playstyle best suits Mr Mime. That's why, even if Mr Mime is in itself one of the biggest threats in the tier, teams with him have other flaws like worse hazard control, so he is not as strong as in theory. DNB

Mr. Mime Galar is probably one of the best Pokémon right now, if not the best. The best offensive hazard control in the tier, one of the most dangerous cleaners thanks to Nasty Plot, one of the fastest Pokémon, and so on... However, Mr. Mime Galar has many, many flaws. First of all, it is weak to all priorities (Machoke's Bullet Punch, Farfetch'd's First Impression, Gourgeist's and Shedinja's Shadow Sneak, ...), which means that it never sweeps before the opposing team is strongly weakened. Then, its typing is very bad with a lot of weaknesses and very little resistance, which limits his ability to come on the field and forces it to hold HDB. Moreover, defensively it is very easily managed by SpD Klang and Dusclops, that are the two best special walls. Honestly, nothing makes me think that Mr Mime Galar is banworthy. DNB

I may edit this tomorrow to add thoughts on Dusclops, if I find the motivation.

 

[OranBerryBlissey10]

Everything that I wanted to say about this mon has been said. This is a pretty good and versatile mon in general, with a better typing than it's Galarian counterpart, but worse stats and utility. I think Mime-Kanto is a threat, but not banworthy. Do Not Ban


Mime-Galar is a force to be reckoned with. It has great speed which can be further improved due to Rapid Spin, Nasty Plot to break through walls and can provide team utility. It strengths, however, do not cover up its major flaws:
- It's helpless against most spinblockers: Lampent and Dusclops can eat a hit and ohko it, and banded Gour even ohko's hdb mime with sneak. Gour can be predicted with Freeze Dry though.
- It's forced to run Freeze-Dry as Ice-stab because of Pyukumuku and Ludicolo.
- Choosing between hdb and eviolite is hell: hdb dies too quickly from attacks while eviolite slowly gets taken out by the hazards it's trying to remove. Specs or Scarf can also work, but they have no utility and are weak to almost all of the current priority.
- It has a grave case of 4mss: The standard spinning set usally has spin and dual stab. This means that you have to choose between Nasty Plot (sweeping potential), Focus Blast (for Klang), Shadow Ball (for weaker ghosts, it doesn't even dent Dusclops), or another status move like Encore for punishing opposing setup or utility. You could forego a stab for one of these options, but that opens up other holes in your game.

To recap, Mime Galar has great strengths as well as its fair share of weaknesses and is overall imo a good influence on the tier. Do Not Ban


Pretty much everyone was scared of Ludicolo when it first dropped, but some people have said it feels underwhelming to them now that it's actually here. There is no denying that Ludicolo is one of ZU's biggest threats, almost completely due to its top tier ability, swift swim. Despite this, I feel like a blind eye is being turned to some of Ludicolo's flaws:
- It's not that great outside of rain, being relatively frail on the physical side, and not outspeeding some of the threats like Mime-Galar or Linoone. On top of that, rain is hard to maintain. The standard Lorb set needs a turn to set up and only has 4 turns to attempt a sweep afterwards, which can be circumvented with Protect, clever switching or just sending out a spdef wall. Your life can also get a lot harder if your opponent decided to bring Hippo or hail.
- Swift Swim isn't as free as it seems with all the webs and Trick Room teams running around, not to mention it doesn't like priority (especially FI), and it still gets outsped by TO Linoone and Scarf Mime-Galar.
- It has 3 good and reliable counters (not including decent counters or checks like Mantyke, Dewpider, Munchlax or Shiinotic which also work btw)
- Sliggoo: Sliggoo eats up even Ice Beams and can use Hydration to abuse Ludicolo's rain and set up Curses while staying healthy ( 252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Sliggoo: 99-117 (29.1 - 34.4%) -- 3.1% chance to 3HKO )
- Shedinja: Idt calcs are super necessary here lol. Ludicolo is helpless against Shedinja unless it has Knock. Which means it can't run Rain Dance as it needs its 3 moves for coverage. Meaning only AV Ludicolo beats Shedinja which isn't a massive threat anyway.
- AV Ludicolo: You can ignore this one as it doesn't help with Ludicolo's prevalence, but AV is more of a specialised counter and not a dangerous sweeper, so you could see this set as a good thing as well. AV Ludicolo can even profit from the rain that the opposing Ludicolo left behind ( 252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Ludicolo: 66-79 (18.1 - 21.7%) -- possible 5HKO )(also I know some people don't use spdef on AV, but I do) Edit: thanks to theotherguytm for showing that I forgot the rain in the Munchlax calc, making it a good check instead of a hard counter

Overall, Ludicolo is a scary rain sweeper, but has enough counterplay in this meta. Do Not Ban

Of all the mons on this list, Gourgeist has the least switchins. Vullaby, Tranquill etc (mons that resist ghost and grass) are the only ones that don't require getting predictions right. The reason Gourgeist became such a threat was due to Poltergeist, which does have its issues, like not being able to spam Knock Off. A base 110 move is still a huge upgrade from Shadow Sneak, which it still carries to circumvent its low speed. Both banded and Life Orb sets hit very hard, and its great defense means that it can take physical hits with ease. One of the easiest ways to beat Gourgeist is to use a grass-resist without item. This isn't as easy as you would think, as giving up eviolite is not worth it, making it only viable on FE mons. This is a double-edged sword, because is something really broken if you can prep for it? On the other hand, is foregoing an item just for one mon a sign of a healthy meta? Gourgeist is also unpredictable, imagine switching in your godslayer (I mean Vullaby ofc) only to get Burned or Tricked a CB on the switch. Or worse, you Knock it, only for it to reveal Weakness Policy and Flame Charge you. That's a gg most of the time. It does have rather low spdef and speed, making it not that hard to kill for any special attacker not in range of Shadow Sneak. To recap, Gourgeist is an amazing and somewhat unpredictable offensive threat, while also having great defensive utility. Despite this, I find it hard to put a mon with realiable switchins and counterplay that can be prepped for with relative ease on the chopping block. Abstain (basically I'm fine with both)

The other ones:

Dusclops has always been a great stallmon, but has recently gotten offensive potential in Poltergeist. Because of this, it can ohko the best spinner in the meta, and be a huge nuisance to 80% of the meta, making it the best spinblocker. Using Poltergeist does mean that you are more prone to getting walled, and using Night Shade makes you more vulnerable to offense. There is also Poltergeist's main problem of being unable to spam Knock Off. Dusclops is also great when paired with Pyukumuku, as setup usally beats Dusclops, but then loses to Pyukumuku. This is ofc not ironclad and can be broken with mons such as Gourgeist and Linoone, but a great stallcore. Despite this, Dusclops has two problems: 1. It is forced to run spdef because of Mime-Galar, this can be exploited and 2. It's passive in general and your opponent can use this to set up (hazards), substitutes, click Taunt or Encore, or just prepare a sweep. At the end of the day, Dusclops is one of the best mons in ZU atm, and including it in the slate wasn't a bad idea. However, as it has enough flaws, I'm gonna have to go with Do Not Ban

gonna edit this in later too (I have a history with this mon lol) Edit: nvm too late lol

 

[theotherguytm]

252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Munchlax: 107-126 (22.5 - 26.5%) -- 21.1% chance to 4HKO

You forgot something.
252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Munchlax in Rain: 160-188 (33.7 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4+ SpD Eviolite Munchlax in Rain: 208-247 (43.8 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[risin_glory]

A very strong mon because of its coverages and ability. It can easily turn the tables for anyone and go on a sweeping spree. But given the circumstances where First Impression farfetch'd exists and Sp.Def Klang, Oranguru, Munchlax can easily counter it, ludicolo has not reached the broken rank. For HO ludicolo is often used as a +SpA nature and in that case, scarfed mime galar outspeeds it even in rain and ohko's it with the freeze dry. Also rain teams have recently become extremely good because of thwackey ban. It means every team should have a tech to counter rain, which in generalhelps against ludicolo. On the other hand it totally stops the uage of mons like corsola which would otherwise be really god in ZU. Basically, I would be okay with either the ban or no ban for ludicolo.


If this kantonian clown had entered ZU without its Galarian cousin, it would have been more useful and still not broken. Because lets be honest. It has pathetic Def which makes it easy to kill him with a regular sucker punch and bullet punch. Also because of the fact that its max speed is 306, galarian mime, drakloak, silvally, persian and linoone-g outspeed it and easily beat it too. Overall, a NO BAN vote for it.


An awesome nfe that is also the best spinner we have. Max speed of 328 which outspeeds Silvally and has a speed tie with Linoone-G. Access to eviolite, heavy duty boots, nasty plot and good coverage. Choice specs on the icy clown is also an effective sweeping strategy. All these points may make it look broken and ban worthy. But we must also look at the kind of counters that are present and how feasible it is to use them in a team. Sp.Def dusclops is probably a very good answer to it, because a poltergeist from clops with 0 atk in EV OHKOs the icy clown. Klang is also effective as mime-g has only one answer to klang is Focus blast which is unreliable. Linoone-G's quick feet makes it faster than mime-g and it ohkos it with one knock off. Lunatone too counters it very well due to obvious reasons. TR teams and scarfed lampent or even eviolite lampent for that matter destroy it. Mime-g also prevents the meta rom becoming mundane, as it prevents the full on hazard stacking to a certain extent and provides diversity in teams. To summarise, I vote for NO BAN on this dancing clown.


This thing has always proven its powerful existence. with access to moves like leech seed, will-o-wisp, trick, shadow sneak, flame charge, power whip it was already a power house. Choice band and life orb variants both hit like a truck. The addition of poltergeist makes it even more OP. But I don't believe that I has crossed that slim line between being OP and being broken and ban worthy. The presence of gourg is small but significant check on the powers of Dusclops, Mime-G(because after 1 flame charge it is faster than that clown) and Pyukumuku. Basically, gourg is a healthy presence to the meta as long as atleast Dusclops and pyukumuku are still around. As for what can counter this pumpkin, theres Maril with sap sipper, Ice vally, and even vullaby and fletchinder. Even oranguru can easily take on a hit and revenge kill with shadow ball. Plus it will become even lesser of a threat once new drops occur. So I would definitely vote for a NO BAN on this spooky pumpkin.


Probably the best pokemon in ZU right now. This is the definition of stall, the format that is currently missing from zu. with insane bulk in both def and sp.def and also having access to eviolite, it doesn't fear damages and taking hits. With its partner in crime pyukumuku available again in the tier, it has a nice stally switch in for the mons that set up in its face. Not to mention the recent poltergeist addition that is definitely better than the night shade it used to run. Even still mons like machoke, linoone-g and gourg can check it and also its companion pyukumuku. It brings the stall varity back and checks the potential threats like Mime-g and Ludicolo. That said, its a healthy presence and is okay here in zu. Conclusion is a vote of NO BAN from me.

(This is my first post here on smogon so if I haven't followed any rule of it or have made any mistake and stuff, I apologise for it and please do tell me about it so I don't repeat it again next time.)

 

[5gen]

Link to voting sheet. Here are the results of the third quick ban slate:

6 DNB
5 Ban : 1 DNB
6 DNB
6 DNB

Ludicolo proved to be too much for the current metagame namely because of its lack of counterplay and how it warped the metagame. Defensively, Ludicolo forced teams to rely on niche Pokemon such as Sliggoo and Shedinja, who are quite exploitable outside of checking Ludicolo. Under rain, Ludicolo was faster than the entire metagame (could run Timid to outspeed Toxic Orb Linoone and Choice Scarf Mr. Mime-Galar), so teams had to rely on priority such as First Impression Farfetch'd. Other priority users such as Fake Out Persian and Choice Band Shadow Sneak Gourgeist-Large cannot even do 50% to Ludicolo, who can use Giga Drain to mitigate chip damage. Moreover, there were too few Pokemon that could tank a rain and Life Orb boosted Hydro Pump, STAB Giga Drain, or Ice Beam and OHKO Ludicolo back. While Ludicolo was more than threatening on paper than in practice, ultimately it proved to be too much for the current metagame. Tagging The Immortal or Kris to implement, much appreciated.

Moving on, the council will continue to keep an eye on Gourgeist-Large and Mr. Mime-Galar. Gourgeist-Large is a fearsome wallbreaker with few switch-ins, but its counterplay is relatively common. Defensive Pokemon such as Gloom, Shiinotic, Klang, Dartix, and Vullaby are able to pivot into it and special attackers such as Silvally-Ice, Mr. Mime-Galar, and Morgrem all threaten it offensively. Also, defensive Gourgeist-Large is a great asset to team building, being able to check a variety of threats. Conversely, Mr. Mime-Galar is a potent breaker and cleaner, but the council decided that the support it brings combined with its lack of bulk and susceptibility to priority moves hold it back from being a broken element. Dusclops received minimal discussion because to be blunt, it was not on the council's radar. Although it has high bulk, Dusclops's passivity leaves it as setup fodder for Pokemon such as Nasty Plot Oranguru and Cosmic Power Gothitelle and Knock Off is very common.

 

[missangelic]

With the voting slate two weeks behind us, the viability rankings updated, and the conclusion of the ZULT, I think it might be the time to talk about some meta trends right now before we get completely swamped by the presumable Pokerap of new mons dropping in a week with the shifts.

1.

Welcome To My Twisted Mind

It's no secret that Dark, Ghost, and Psychic type Pokemon have taken ZU by storm. Already, the tier was full of decent to good Psychics, including Lunatone, Solrock, Gothitelle, and Oranguru. However, new additions to the tier and the huge buff to ghost types in Poltergeist has made running one or two Dark types or some other Psychic/Ghost checks nearly mandatory on every team. Gourgeist-Large currently sits at the top of the meta and some people still view it as unhealthy even after being suspected, offensive Psychic types give offense a myriad of setup options between Nasty Plotters and Calm Mind sweepers, and Dusclops has breathed new life into bulkier builds as the premiere defensive Ghost type. Whether you're running a more offensive or defensive build, you can almost always guarantee to see more than one Psychic or Ghost type on a team, with an added Dark type as a great antimeta choice for good measure.

2.

New Kids On The Block

The full wave of the DLC hasn't exactly hit ZU yet, but that doesn't mean that the NFEs haven't given the tier some new toys to play with. Most of these new mons range from pretty fine to mediocre, but each of them has filled a significant role in ZU or created a new niche. Krokorok is an excellent lead rocker, Lickitung is a nice cleric on stall, and Mienfoo is a pretty cool offensive pivot with Regenerator, U-Turn, and Knock Off for some fine utility. The others tend to be a bit more niche, but you can usually find some players who are willing to go to bat for Wishport Jigglypuff, offensive Seadra, or sole offensive Electric Magnemite. None of them have exactly defined the tier, but they've helped to remediate the complaint of few options to work with in SS ZU a bit, and it will be interesting to see which ones are able to stick.

3.

Toxic

The archetypes of Stall and Toxic Spikes have seen resurgences with the reintroduction of some of their staples and the discovery of new options on both. Trubbish has become the forefront of Toxic Spikes and stacking with the presence of multiple great Ghosts for spinblocking and ways to punish Defog. While, Toxic Spikes are nowhere near as powerful as they once were in the heydays of Mareanie and Pincurchin, Trubbish's great showings in ZULT demonstrate that the archetype isn't fully dead.
Speaking of things that won't die, Stall has been doing quite well in this current meta with a plethora of new and old tools alike, though mostly new. Clerics and Wish passers like Natu and Lickitung are great at supporting walls such as Pyukumuku and Dusclops, while Corsola and Klang are some great pivots to rely on. Ivysaur has remained strong even with the diminishing of Toxic Spikes in popularity largely for its ability to help break stall in Knock Off and its typing.

I'm not entirely sure what my sort of thesis of this post is beyond trying to understand some of the recent developments that have come of the July meta. I'll definitely be interested in what comes of the last week and the changes that August will bring. Cheers!