Yung Dramps
awesome gaming
You guys are making a big fuss over whether to ban/unban BP because of Eevee pass. Have you considered unbanning BP and banning Eevium Z instead?
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Metagame np: Ubers Stage 1 - Into The Unknown
- Thread starter Nayrz
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Gonna do this post on mobile, so won’t be as long and as well done as a full post but should still give insights.
As an Anything Goes player that’s dealt with baton pass in its many forms and piloted some of the variants of baton pass, I can say that it is definitely a high risk high return playstyle.
Traditional baton pass involves passing boosts to espeon utilizing defense boosts and sleep to achieve this goal. AG baton pass makes sleep more potent and throws evasion pass into the mix as well.
This type of baton pass typically falls prey to either perish song or haze on bulkier builds or simply fast offensive pressure. A simple LO yveltal can give baton pass enough trouble to make it extremely difficult to win.
Throughout my time facing these teams, typically with proper preparation, it will not be particularly difficult. While there is skill in piloting these teams, games for the most part are decided on preview and matchup.
However, eevee pass is different in that it has a lot more flexibility. This does not rely on evasion boosts and can actually break past some of the common checks to baton pass through the utilization of techs, such as stored power eevee to hit marshadow and Mr. Mime to prevent roar and perish song.
While it’s still an extremely risky team decision, it has enough merit to ensure that team building must account for this eevee baton pass.
Not sure how this well this would translate to ubers but hopefully I gave a bit more information and insight on how these baton pass can impact the meta and how they affect teambuilding through a parellel in AG.
As an Anything Goes player that’s dealt with baton pass in its many forms and piloted some of the variants of baton pass, I can say that it is definitely a high risk high return playstyle.
Traditional baton pass involves passing boosts to espeon utilizing defense boosts and sleep to achieve this goal. AG baton pass makes sleep more potent and throws evasion pass into the mix as well.
This type of baton pass typically falls prey to either perish song or haze on bulkier builds or simply fast offensive pressure. A simple LO yveltal can give baton pass enough trouble to make it extremely difficult to win.
Throughout my time facing these teams, typically with proper preparation, it will not be particularly difficult. While there is skill in piloting these teams, games for the most part are decided on preview and matchup.
However, eevee pass is different in that it has a lot more flexibility. This does not rely on evasion boosts and can actually break past some of the common checks to baton pass through the utilization of techs, such as stored power eevee to hit marshadow and Mr. Mime to prevent roar and perish song.
While it’s still an extremely risky team decision, it has enough merit to ensure that team building must account for this eevee baton pass.
Not sure how this well this would translate to ubers but hopefully I gave a bit more information and insight on how these baton pass can impact the meta and how they affect teambuilding through a parellel in AG.
Cynara
Banned deucer.
I am not really sure where to post this, but after playing USM for almost a year and Snake Draft coming to an end, I want to voice my opinion on an issue the metagame that I needs to be addressed. I know I'm not a great poster, so I will try to focus completely on the content without fluffing it too much.
I am calling for a discussion on Necrozma Dusk Mane/Ultra Necrozma combination as a whole, and their combined impact on the USM Ubers metagame, and the potential to lead to a possible suspect of Necrozma-DM, as I feel this is the best possible solution to the issue without any high levels of complexity of a potential ban and arguably the element of the problem which has the largest impact.
Necrozma has too many dimensions to account for, both from a teambuilder and a playing perspective. Necrozma has an extreme versatility of sets, these sets include Double Dance , Swords Dance + Trick Room (both of these include Weakness Policy + Solgalium-Z variants), 2 Attacks Swords Dance + Moonlight( Specially defensive / Jolly Life Orb) along with Ultra Necrozma sets being Ultra Swords Dance and Calm Mind.
This versatility along with the fact that Necrozma-DM being able to Ultra Burst, means you have to account for the possibility of Ultra Necrozma throughout the game, until enough information is presented to you. The main underlying issue of this is it forces players to account for two different Pokemon at once during the game and both Necrozma’s have completely different methods to check or sequence them in a game. This can lead to guessing games amongst players and games being decided on a coinflip of whether the opponent is Necrozma-DM or Ultra Necrozma, an incorrect guess can be extremely damaging or lead to a loss on the spot. This coinflip element is somewhat comparable to Mega Rayquaza in my opinion.
This is one of the main factors that make Necrozma completely unique to top level offensive threats like Geomancy Xerneas. In the example of Geomancy Xerneas which has less dimensions to it as you can guarantee what Xerneas is capable of doing and there are surefire checks and play sequences to deal with Geomancy Xerneas, I feel this puts Necrozma way above Xerneas in terms of an offensive threat and the amount of damage to a team it is able to do.
In the teambuilder, Necrozma has a short list of checks due its offensive versatility, ability to use 200 BP Z-Moves and offensive stats make it very overwhelming to deal with. Necrozma-DM and Ultra Necrozma put a lot of teambuilding constraint onto teams and requiring additional preparation/countermeasures to deal with Necrozma in teambuilds that tend to lack either a Yveltal or Arceus-Dark. This pushes players into corners with team ideas them and sometimes leads to neglecting top relevant metagame threats such as Ho-Oh, Primal Kyogre, Geomancy Xerneas or Arceus-Ground. Because a considerable teambuilding focus is applied on Necrozma, and thus leads to a workable amount of builds in a metagame that can cover most/or all of the main metagame threats being extremely limited. One being the composition of: Mega Salamence / Primal Kyogre / Primal Groudon / Extreme Killer Arceus / Xerneas / Necrozma-DM which is just barely adequate to deal with the main metagame threats.
Obviously the collateral of removing Necrozma-DM has to be looked at in a metagame perspective, however I feel the removal outweighs the collateral that it could bring and could bring a positive shift to the metagame, allowing players to teambuild more adequately against other metagame threats/trends and the possibility of stall being a workable playstyle as a result.
The reason Necrozma Dawn Wings was not factored into the equation of this post as it has little to no relevant impact on the metagame, with its only workable sets being a niche of Ultra Bursting into Ultra Necrozma. Ultra Necrozma on its own is completely able to dealt with sufficiently and I feel the issues come from the combination of Necrozma-DM and Ultra Necrozma being too powerful and too versatile to account for in the metagame and overall I feel this stems from Necrozma-DM being the overall problematic Pokemon and there should be the suspect element.
In conclusion, the objective of this post is to generate discussion of the USM Ubers metagame moving forward and formulate solutions on how to improve the metagame as a whole. I am quite concerned and passionate about the future of the tier and I would like to see how other players feel about this and post their thoughts.
Thanks for reading my post.
I am calling for a discussion on Necrozma Dusk Mane/Ultra Necrozma combination as a whole, and their combined impact on the USM Ubers metagame, and the potential to lead to a possible suspect of Necrozma-DM, as I feel this is the best possible solution to the issue without any high levels of complexity of a potential ban and arguably the element of the problem which has the largest impact.
Necrozma has too many dimensions to account for, both from a teambuilder and a playing perspective. Necrozma has an extreme versatility of sets, these sets include Double Dance , Swords Dance + Trick Room (both of these include Weakness Policy + Solgalium-Z variants), 2 Attacks Swords Dance + Moonlight( Specially defensive / Jolly Life Orb) along with Ultra Necrozma sets being Ultra Swords Dance and Calm Mind.
This versatility along with the fact that Necrozma-DM being able to Ultra Burst, means you have to account for the possibility of Ultra Necrozma throughout the game, until enough information is presented to you. The main underlying issue of this is it forces players to account for two different Pokemon at once during the game and both Necrozma’s have completely different methods to check or sequence them in a game. This can lead to guessing games amongst players and games being decided on a coinflip of whether the opponent is Necrozma-DM or Ultra Necrozma, an incorrect guess can be extremely damaging or lead to a loss on the spot. This coinflip element is somewhat comparable to Mega Rayquaza in my opinion.
This is one of the main factors that make Necrozma completely unique to top level offensive threats like Geomancy Xerneas. In the example of Geomancy Xerneas which has less dimensions to it as you can guarantee what Xerneas is capable of doing and there are surefire checks and play sequences to deal with Geomancy Xerneas, I feel this puts Necrozma way above Xerneas in terms of an offensive threat and the amount of damage to a team it is able to do.
In the teambuilder, Necrozma has a short list of checks due its offensive versatility, ability to use 200 BP Z-Moves and offensive stats make it very overwhelming to deal with. Necrozma-DM and Ultra Necrozma put a lot of teambuilding constraint onto teams and requiring additional preparation/countermeasures to deal with Necrozma in teambuilds that tend to lack either a Yveltal or Arceus-Dark. This pushes players into corners with team ideas them and sometimes leads to neglecting top relevant metagame threats such as Ho-Oh, Primal Kyogre, Geomancy Xerneas or Arceus-Ground. Because a considerable teambuilding focus is applied on Necrozma, and thus leads to a workable amount of builds in a metagame that can cover most/or all of the main metagame threats being extremely limited. One being the composition of: Mega Salamence / Primal Kyogre / Primal Groudon / Extreme Killer Arceus / Xerneas / Necrozma-DM which is just barely adequate to deal with the main metagame threats.
Obviously the collateral of removing Necrozma-DM has to be looked at in a metagame perspective, however I feel the removal outweighs the collateral that it could bring and could bring a positive shift to the metagame, allowing players to teambuild more adequately against other metagame threats/trends and the possibility of stall being a workable playstyle as a result.
The reason Necrozma Dawn Wings was not factored into the equation of this post as it has little to no relevant impact on the metagame, with its only workable sets being a niche of Ultra Bursting into Ultra Necrozma. Ultra Necrozma on its own is completely able to dealt with sufficiently and I feel the issues come from the combination of Necrozma-DM and Ultra Necrozma being too powerful and too versatile to account for in the metagame and overall I feel this stems from Necrozma-DM being the overall problematic Pokemon and there should be the suspect element.
In conclusion, the objective of this post is to generate discussion of the USM Ubers metagame moving forward and formulate solutions on how to improve the metagame as a whole. I am quite concerned and passionate about the future of the tier and I would like to see how other players feel about this and post their thoughts.
Thanks for reading my post.
I totally agree, Main reason because some players did quit of Ubers, its because Ubers became an "unbalanced" tier or too broken with those Necrozma, since they can have variety of sets and clean 6-0 a lot of teams that lacks of Yveltal Defensive / Arceus-Dark defensive.
dewtios
Banned deucer.
I think a huge part of what makes Ultra Necrozma so unhealthy is that Necrozma-DM and Ultra Necrozma, in a way, cover each other's weaknesses. Necrozma-DM can easily remain in its base form until threats like Choice Scarf Xerneas have been eliminated, and then dominate as Ultra Necrozma without the fear of getting revenge killed. At the same time, Necrozma-DM's most common check, Primal Groudon, is easily lured in by Necrozma in its base form, and then eliminated after Necrozma-DM Ultra Bursts and sets up a Swords Dance while living any attack that Primal Groudon can use and guaranteeing the KO with Earthquake. At this point, you have a Pokemon with enormous Speed and Attack stats at +2, with an ability that basically gives it a free Expert Belt boost. It skews the balance of the tier quite significantly.
I'm not sure which way I'd vote in the event of a Suspect Test, but I would definitely consider the ambiguity and guessing games presented as a result of this duality when making my decision.
I'm not sure which way I'd vote in the event of a Suspect Test, but I would definitely consider the ambiguity and guessing games presented as a result of this duality when making my decision.
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i dont think banning dusk mane should ever be on the table, especially since its the easier of the 2 forms to check effectively in a linear fashion. i agree that the need to cover potential dusk or ultra necro in a game scenario can often be overwhelming and even decide the game with how polarizing the set up turns are, but this wouldn't be a dusk mane problem, it'd be an ultra necrozma problem. dusk mane is rather balanced with its need to set up two dances to be an effective sweeper, meaning you can triangle check naturally between support arcs, zygs, lunalas, ygods, ogres, fast pdons, etc. dusk will always have valuable aspects to provide to the tier in terms of balancing threats and in the current meta is not actually needed to build successful teams. ultra necrozma on the other hand has little to offer except creating an additional offensive threat that has to be dealt with in unconventional ways, while also creating polarizing "coinflip" situations (only things it potentially balances are creating the need for real speed control, mixed pdon, sd arcs). i could see a future potential argument being made for an ultra necrozma ban given its power, building contraints, and odd situational mechanics in conjunction with dusk form.
final statement: having to account for two potential forms is a problem as it creates heavy restrictions in how you check dusk/ultra, but dusk mane is very balanced as a single mon. the premise of banning dusk mane to eliminate the polarizing turns and "coinflips" or "guessing games" that dusk + ultra create should probably be disregarded as it is the additional form that makes it sketchy in the first place. This would be like banning rayquaza base form and mega form instead of just mega form, as you have to "guess between z ray and mega ray" (not exactly like this but if you amplify that situation to a greater extent you get a close example to what the argument is). if you get rid of ultranecrozium z, you get rid of the guessing game problem, while also keeping dusk mane around which is pretty balanced in the fact that teams can easily check offensive and support sets alike in a linear fashion. dusk is also healthy for the metagame if we disregard the ultra + dusk problem. if anything were to be banned, which im not advocating that it should, it should be ultra necrozma in theory.
final statement: having to account for two potential forms is a problem as it creates heavy restrictions in how you check dusk/ultra, but dusk mane is very balanced as a single mon. the premise of banning dusk mane to eliminate the polarizing turns and "coinflips" or "guessing games" that dusk + ultra create should probably be disregarded as it is the additional form that makes it sketchy in the first place. This would be like banning rayquaza base form and mega form instead of just mega form, as you have to "guess between z ray and mega ray" (not exactly like this but if you amplify that situation to a greater extent you get a close example to what the argument is). if you get rid of ultranecrozium z, you get rid of the guessing game problem, while also keeping dusk mane around which is pretty balanced in the fact that teams can easily check offensive and support sets alike in a linear fashion. dusk is also healthy for the metagame if we disregard the ultra + dusk problem. if anything were to be banned, which im not advocating that it should, it should be ultra necrozma in theory.
University of Miami
Banned deucer.
I think it would be interesting to suspect Ultranecrozium Z on Dusk Mane Necrozma. See, the issue is this would potentially result in a complex ban which Smogon generally likes to avoid. Nevertheless, the polarizing coin flip issue is detrimental to success of many defensive teams, and Ultra Necrozma invalidates stall as a play style in its own right. While it's far from unhealthy, it does oppress defensive teams.
You're right, Ultra Necrozma would be more likely to be banned because of how much better Necrozma-Ultra's stats are.
its actually not even as simple of an issue as that. its purely based on the situations that occur when you have to play around a 2 in 1 mon with both possibilities being quite potent and require different methods of checking. from a public standpoint, most will agree overall dusk is a better mon as a whole, and its S rank compared to Ultra's A rank reflects this common viewpoint. this is why banning ultra>dusk may not be intuitive, as we would be banning a pokemon that is not insanely high usage rate, is not overpowered as a whole, and even has ample checks in the meta. the argument about why ultra needs to go would be based purely on how it has "broken" mechanics essentially.
You're right, I didn't think about that lol
Funbot28
Banned deucer.
I agree that an issue currently exists with the whole Necro-DM and Ultra-DM dynamic. I cannot reiterate the countless amount of times where I have seen players lose simply by losing the "50/50" that is exerted through the forme change, where one wrong guess can either leave your team swept by a +2 Speed Necro-DM or a +2 Atk Ultra-DM. I feel this problem is exerted by the fact that the two forms have different forms of counterplay from the onset without even considering the various amount of offensive sets that they can both run distinctively (where stuff like SD and CM Ultra can both sweep teams if not properly accounted for beforehand). Yes one can argue that the set can be scouted from team preview, with examples being that a team would likely carry a Necro-DM forme if they only have Don as their Xern check, however the possibility still puts a strain in playing due to always putting the opposing player in a guessing game, potentially saccing crucial checks when trying to scout the set.
I believe banning Ultranecrozium Z would have the less collateral damage. Yes that means that webs wont be able to use Necro-DW viably, although I would prefer this then to losing an overall balanced mon and a great Xern check.
I believe banning Ultranecrozium Z would have the less collateral damage. Yes that means that webs wont be able to use Necro-DW viably, although I would prefer this then to losing an overall balanced mon and a great Xern check.
Cynara
Banned deucer.
This is an interesting approach to take. My initial idea of my post was to generate a discussion and I feel your post has proven it has sparked a worthwhile discussion amongst the community.
Yes, I do agree the issue is the two in one aspect of Necrozma-DM / Ultra combination. Your proposed solution of Ultra Necrozma solves the central issue of the problem and I would be satisfied with this possible suspect.
The main weak point of my post was weighing the options at tiering decision level. Its clearly obvious to me that either Necrozma-DM or Ultra Necrozma should be the areas of suspect and I was trying to weigh the options of what is more feasible to suspect, where the issue stems from, possible collateral damage etc, and avoiding complexity ban issues.
Penultimately, whether it should be Necrozma-DM, Ultra Necrozma or do nothing boils, down to a tier leader decision, Im just suggesting a possible way to go forward in developing beneficial metagame.
Either pokemon would be manageable in the metagame if they existed as a single unit absolutely, but they dont and the two-in-one aspect is what throws it into overwhelming proportions for me.
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Well, what I can see that mostly everyone here agrees on is that both Necrozma-DM and Ultra Necrozma are balanced when they're not combined, and only the guessing game between the two is a problem. At first, I thought that suspecting Ultra Necrozma would be better (since we can't suspect Ultranecrozium Z on Dusk Mane due to it being a complex ban), but if we're strictly by the Smogon philosophy, Necrozma-DM probably should be the one suspected: Ultranecrozium Z is not broken or unhealthy on every Pokémon that can use it (Dawn Wings is fine on webs, giving it a good spinblocker), just like Gothitelle and Gothorita were suspected instead of Shadow Tag.
My personal opinion is that a Ultranecrozium Z suspect would have less collateral damage than a Necrozma-DM when looking at the meta that we have, but I do think that it is important to also keep what I said above in mind.
My personal opinion is that a Ultranecrozium Z suspect would have less collateral damage than a Necrozma-DM when looking at the meta that we have, but I do think that it is important to also keep what I said above in mind.
I'm sort of conflicted on this issue myself.
As people have already said, both Necrozma-DM and Ultra Necrozma aren't problematic Pokemon by themselves, but it's the combination of the two that poses the issue. However, the combination of Necrozma-DW and Ultra Necrozma isn't anywhere near as much of a conundrum as the previously-mentioned duo, and I'd hate to see Dawn Wings lose the main niche it had. My personally-preferred outcome would be to see a suspect on Necrozma-DM holding an Ultranecrozium Z, but I can understand if the community isn't willing to go through with that considering it's a complex ban, so the best possible route to take would, in fact, be a suspect test on either Ultra Necrozma or Dusk Mane.
As people have already said, both Necrozma-DM and Ultra Necrozma aren't problematic Pokemon by themselves, but it's the combination of the two that poses the issue. However, the combination of Necrozma-DW and Ultra Necrozma isn't anywhere near as much of a conundrum as the previously-mentioned duo, and I'd hate to see Dawn Wings lose the main niche it had. My personally-preferred outcome would be to see a suspect on Necrozma-DM holding an Ultranecrozium Z, but I can understand if the community isn't willing to go through with that considering it's a complex ban, so the best possible route to take would, in fact, be a suspect test on either Ultra Necrozma or Dusk Mane.
My thoughts - which are of course biased given my philosophy behind the whole tier:
Obviously I'm against suspecting and/or banning Dusk Mane, but obviously if this is what the community wants it's what we should probably get. I just want to put some things into perspective, and ask some legitimate questions:
If UNecro is the broken factor here, why do we want to suspect Dusk Mane?
Like really - if we left Dusk Mane alone, is it broken? Is the only problem here that Dusk Mane ALSO has the option of turning into Ultra Necro and completely destroying your dedicated Dusk Mane check? If this is the case, is it not simpler and cleaner to just ban Ultra Necrozma (you can just ban Ultranecromium Z)? The only reason I see banning Dusk Mane is if Dusk Mane itself is broken, which sure is arguable but I disagree it's broken (far from it). The whole thing to save Ultra Necro by being able to use it via Dawn Wings is pretty bollocks. You would rather ban something that's actually relatively stabilising in the metagame (pretty much a hard Xern/Fairyceus counter, Mence check + others) to save Dawn Wings-Ultra Necro (which is shit)??!
So now to actually detail why even the combo of Dusk Mane/UNecro is not broken by Ubers standards:
1) Having to settle for (relatively) soft checks is does not mean a Pokemon is broken (in Ubers)
I hear this spouted a lot lately (not just for DM) - "we have to run 2-3 Pokemon to be able to decently check a Pokemon - it forces coinflips and you need to guess what it's running". Like really, this has been happening literally since DPP Ubers. It's pretty much a given why these Pokemon are in this tier in the first place. A lot of Pokemon in this tier do not have solid checks or forces you to guess its moveset because you can adequately check them and if you guess wronged you probably lost your check. Some of the Pokemon in this tier doesn't even need to run different formes like Dusk Mane to force this. Here's a list
i) P-Don - Groundceus is a pretty solid check in general but you still have to watch out for Eruption or even those more bulky SD variants that can live Judgement - not to mention those scary ones in Webs. Other checks all check P-Don well but will still lose to certain sets
ii) Zygarde - oh boy this thing when played well can decimate its check purely through hax or D-tail shenanigans. With Sub/Glare/DD it can potentially fuck over pretty much any of its checks and you can swap out Sub if you want be more harsh on shit like Lugia.
iii) P Ogre - physical sets and CM sets blast different checks. Sure you can slap a Ferrothorn on but you're actually having a hard time vs CM variants
Those are just some of the more obvious ones and you could probably think of more. The point is that we have long accepted that Ubers is a metagame where you can never check everything at once so you're taking a gamble every time you play. That's not necessarily a bad thing - you can still be very good if you can handle being in a bad situation. The difference between a coin flip like this and hax-based coinflips like OHKO and Moody and shit is that these are coinflips based on player decisions (ie you retain your autonomy) and not RNG based decisions (where neither player has autonomy). I think we really need to recognise that Ubers is more of a series of well educated coin flips rather than a hard and solid metagame where X can check Y can check A can check P. There is a reason that WishKiller works in Ubers even though it doesn't have a solid check to everything - they check things by proxy and that's all you need in this metagame.
As far as I can understand too, UN doesn't usually use Sunsteel Strike. So if you scout around early you can get a pretty good feel on what variant the Dusk Mane is.
We've also had situations like this before in past Ubers metagames, although tbf they were as drastic as Dusk Mane vs UNecro. Eg We had vanilla M2/MMX/MMY in XY switching the wrong thing into the wrong forme spelt disaster (although tbf MMX was trash so you could get away with assuming vanilla M2 or MMY most of the time and it wouldn't be a problem). We have smaller situations like Gyarados/Mega Gyarados where you have to guess which forme it's going to be in. These aren't new. I recognise that Dusk Mane/UNecro are obviously better but just something to think about.
2) There are very solid checks/counters for BOTH Dusk Mane/UNecro
List (that isn't exhaustive by any means):
- Darkceus
- Mega Slowbro (please don't say Toxic on defensive because that is literally an unset and given that Mega Bro is normally on a team with clerics, getting Toxiced means that DM is most likely going to be completely harmless to the rest of your team and you can just Heal Bell your Slowbro anyway)
- Yveltal (defensive/Choice Scarf, while LO Sucker Punch deals a crapload to both)
- Scarf Ho-oh
- Skarm (loses to Heat Wave variants but are those common?)
- Lunala (loses to Outrage if SR is up which obv Lunala teams should have very good hazard control; also is that standard?)
- Gyarados
-Persian-Alola
Most of those probably belong on more defensive teams, so you can probably make the argument that offensive teams might have trouble solidly checking them, but not really since offensive teams get away with loose checks just like how they get away with loosely checking Ekiller.
If you're talking about individual checks after either DM or UN is revealed this list blows out to a lot more than this.
3) Comparing to something that's ACTUALLY banned to get some perspective
Seeing as people are making the straight argument that DM/UN is actually broken (as in it's too strong for the metagame and not that uncompetitive(TM) bs), we have something pretty concrete to compare it to. In terms of power level, DM/UN is still very far from Mega Ray. On one hand, DM/UN can bust checks with different sets like plenty of other Ubers, while Mega Ray pretty much destroyed teams (and probably still does) with one set (it had different sets but they all had the same effect - shit just died regardless). They are in different leagues - one Pokemon is probably around the same level or marginally better than most Ubers can kill different checks with variations of its moveset while the other simply had no checks.
4) Impact on the metagame
I'm not a fan of this mantra - "banning Dusk Mane has little effect on the metagame unlike if we banned Primal Groudon". Yes I have ACTUALLY heard something very similar to this wording. So if by this sentiment, am I right in saying that Groudon is still more broken than DM/UN? If so, and we can tolerate Groudon, then why can't we tolerate DM/UN? Am I just reading this sentiment wrong?
Impact should really be secondary to actual power levels. If something is less broken to something that we're used to (which I think IS the case with PDon), then it shouldn't be banned. We don't go banning things in our metagame because there's no reason not to from a competitive standpoint.
Regardless, banning DM/UN actually has an impact. Tt rob offensive/balanced teams a key GeoXern counter (a Pokemon that was borderline "broken" in itself), a Mega Mence check, a Psyspam check (for what it's worth), and potentially other things. That's just from the competitive standpoint.
The other impact which people don't really seem to care about any more of course, is the impact a ban would have on the reputation on our tier. Regardless of whether we're a "tier" and not a banlist or not, we still take great effort to avoid banning anything if possible. I understand in seriously fucked circumstances like Mega Ray, exceptions can be made, but do we really have a completely broken metagame like we have back then? Dusk Mane is more of an unpleasant stain on the metagame rather than something that stops it from functioning. I know people got triggered at me calling everyone snowflakes back in the Goth suspect (which funnily enough reinforces what I said), but can we please stop bandwagoning for bans on things that are merely nuisances rather than things that actually makes a game unplayable (and when I mean unplayable I mean unplayable competitively and not just because people don't like it).
Also fuck you guys you made me write another 1500 word essay on this when I'd rather write about Species Clause and more interesting things but whatever love you all :P
Obviously I'm against suspecting and/or banning Dusk Mane, but obviously if this is what the community wants it's what we should probably get. I just want to put some things into perspective, and ask some legitimate questions:
If UNecro is the broken factor here, why do we want to suspect Dusk Mane?
Like really - if we left Dusk Mane alone, is it broken? Is the only problem here that Dusk Mane ALSO has the option of turning into Ultra Necro and completely destroying your dedicated Dusk Mane check? If this is the case, is it not simpler and cleaner to just ban Ultra Necrozma (you can just ban Ultranecromium Z)? The only reason I see banning Dusk Mane is if Dusk Mane itself is broken, which sure is arguable but I disagree it's broken (far from it). The whole thing to save Ultra Necro by being able to use it via Dawn Wings is pretty bollocks. You would rather ban something that's actually relatively stabilising in the metagame (pretty much a hard Xern/Fairyceus counter, Mence check + others) to save Dawn Wings-Ultra Necro (which is shit)??!
So now to actually detail why even the combo of Dusk Mane/UNecro is not broken by Ubers standards:
1) Having to settle for (relatively) soft checks is does not mean a Pokemon is broken (in Ubers)
I hear this spouted a lot lately (not just for DM) - "we have to run 2-3 Pokemon to be able to decently check a Pokemon - it forces coinflips and you need to guess what it's running". Like really, this has been happening literally since DPP Ubers. It's pretty much a given why these Pokemon are in this tier in the first place. A lot of Pokemon in this tier do not have solid checks or forces you to guess its moveset because you can adequately check them and if you guess wronged you probably lost your check. Some of the Pokemon in this tier doesn't even need to run different formes like Dusk Mane to force this. Here's a list
i) P-Don - Groundceus is a pretty solid check in general but you still have to watch out for Eruption or even those more bulky SD variants that can live Judgement - not to mention those scary ones in Webs. Other checks all check P-Don well but will still lose to certain sets
ii) Zygarde - oh boy this thing when played well can decimate its check purely through hax or D-tail shenanigans. With Sub/Glare/DD it can potentially fuck over pretty much any of its checks and you can swap out Sub if you want be more harsh on shit like Lugia.
iii) P Ogre - physical sets and CM sets blast different checks. Sure you can slap a Ferrothorn on but you're actually having a hard time vs CM variants
Those are just some of the more obvious ones and you could probably think of more. The point is that we have long accepted that Ubers is a metagame where you can never check everything at once so you're taking a gamble every time you play. That's not necessarily a bad thing - you can still be very good if you can handle being in a bad situation. The difference between a coin flip like this and hax-based coinflips like OHKO and Moody and shit is that these are coinflips based on player decisions (ie you retain your autonomy) and not RNG based decisions (where neither player has autonomy). I think we really need to recognise that Ubers is more of a series of well educated coin flips rather than a hard and solid metagame where X can check Y can check A can check P. There is a reason that WishKiller works in Ubers even though it doesn't have a solid check to everything - they check things by proxy and that's all you need in this metagame.
As far as I can understand too, UN doesn't usually use Sunsteel Strike. So if you scout around early you can get a pretty good feel on what variant the Dusk Mane is.
We've also had situations like this before in past Ubers metagames, although tbf they were as drastic as Dusk Mane vs UNecro. Eg We had vanilla M2/MMX/MMY in XY switching the wrong thing into the wrong forme spelt disaster (although tbf MMX was trash so you could get away with assuming vanilla M2 or MMY most of the time and it wouldn't be a problem). We have smaller situations like Gyarados/Mega Gyarados where you have to guess which forme it's going to be in. These aren't new. I recognise that Dusk Mane/UNecro are obviously better but just something to think about.
2) There are very solid checks/counters for BOTH Dusk Mane/UNecro
List (that isn't exhaustive by any means):
- Darkceus
- Mega Slowbro (please don't say Toxic on defensive because that is literally an unset and given that Mega Bro is normally on a team with clerics, getting Toxiced means that DM is most likely going to be completely harmless to the rest of your team and you can just Heal Bell your Slowbro anyway)
- Yveltal (defensive/Choice Scarf, while LO Sucker Punch deals a crapload to both)
- Scarf Ho-oh
- Skarm (loses to Heat Wave variants but are those common?)
- Lunala (loses to Outrage if SR is up which obv Lunala teams should have very good hazard control; also is that standard?)
- Gyarados
-
Most of those probably belong on more defensive teams, so you can probably make the argument that offensive teams might have trouble solidly checking them, but not really since offensive teams get away with loose checks just like how they get away with loosely checking Ekiller.
If you're talking about individual checks after either DM or UN is revealed this list blows out to a lot more than this.
3) Comparing to something that's ACTUALLY banned to get some perspective
Seeing as people are making the straight argument that DM/UN is actually broken (as in it's too strong for the metagame and not that uncompetitive(TM) bs), we have something pretty concrete to compare it to. In terms of power level, DM/UN is still very far from Mega Ray. On one hand, DM/UN can bust checks with different sets like plenty of other Ubers, while Mega Ray pretty much destroyed teams (and probably still does) with one set (it had different sets but they all had the same effect - shit just died regardless). They are in different leagues - one Pokemon is probably around the same level or marginally better than most Ubers can kill different checks with variations of its moveset while the other simply had no checks.
4) Impact on the metagame
I'm not a fan of this mantra - "banning Dusk Mane has little effect on the metagame unlike if we banned Primal Groudon". Yes I have ACTUALLY heard something very similar to this wording. So if by this sentiment, am I right in saying that Groudon is still more broken than DM/UN? If so, and we can tolerate Groudon, then why can't we tolerate DM/UN? Am I just reading this sentiment wrong?
Impact should really be secondary to actual power levels. If something is less broken to something that we're used to (which I think IS the case with PDon), then it shouldn't be banned. We don't go banning things in our metagame because there's no reason not to from a competitive standpoint.
Regardless, banning DM/UN actually has an impact. Tt rob offensive/balanced teams a key GeoXern counter (a Pokemon that was borderline "broken" in itself), a Mega Mence check, a Psyspam check (for what it's worth), and potentially other things. That's just from the competitive standpoint.
The other impact which people don't really seem to care about any more of course, is the impact a ban would have on the reputation on our tier. Regardless of whether we're a "tier" and not a banlist or not, we still take great effort to avoid banning anything if possible. I understand in seriously fucked circumstances like Mega Ray, exceptions can be made, but do we really have a completely broken metagame like we have back then? Dusk Mane is more of an unpleasant stain on the metagame rather than something that stops it from functioning. I know people got triggered at me calling everyone snowflakes back in the Goth suspect (which funnily enough reinforces what I said), but can we please stop bandwagoning for bans on things that are merely nuisances rather than things that actually makes a game unplayable (and when I mean unplayable I mean unplayable competitively and not just because people don't like it).
Also fuck you guys you made me write another 1500 word essay on this when I'd rather write about Species Clause and more interesting things but whatever love you all :P
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My personal opinion is necrozma dusk mane as a whole needs to be suspect tested, the mon is extremely unhealthy for the current metagame, the reason being with the right play, it can proceed to beat it checks and counters such as groudon, ho oh, primal kyogre etc... I'd say banning the mon in conjuction with ultranecrozium z would not solve the issue, and restriction this pokemon has on teambuilding. Common sets you see Dual Dance Z, Weakness Policy Trick Room, and Support dusk mane on more offensive teams all hold restrictions on the opposing side. Double dance Necrozma is capable of breaking fatter stall builds, and has limited pokemon that can take a hit and phase it out. A primary example being skarmory. Because ferrothorn is forced to run max special defense for pokemon like arceus ground, and primal kyogre it does not beat it because it does not want to take boosted earthquakes. Zygarde can beat this pokemon to a degree however if the dusk mane user predicts a zygarde clicks swords dance its immediately forced out if lacking protect or it will be Ko'd by Searing Sunraze smash.
+2 252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Searing Sunraze Smash vs. 32 HP / 64 Def Kyogre-Primal: 420-494 (120.3 - 141.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Searing Sunraze Smash vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 332-391 (79.8 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-819572324
The support set is also capable of taking overheat from primal groudon and recovering 75% due to the harsh sunlight and if groudon has been previously toxic poisoned the necrozma dusk mane is capable of toxic stalling the primal groudon due to its ability prism armor allowing it to survive supereffective attacks
+2 252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Searing Sunraze Smash vs. 32 HP / 64 Def Kyogre-Primal: 420-494 (120.3 - 141.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Searing Sunraze Smash vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 332-391 (79.8 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-819572324
The support set is also capable of taking overheat from primal groudon and recovering 75% due to the harsh sunlight and if groudon has been previously toxic poisoned the necrozma dusk mane is capable of toxic stalling the primal groudon due to its ability prism armor allowing it to survive supereffective attacks
We should probably unban drypass. its a competitive mechanic and use of Baton Pass thats been around since the oldest gens
My current stance on the recent discussion is that a Dusk suspect is not on the table. It provides a lot to the metagame and is not an overbearing presence that needs removal. The case of being surprised by an Ultra set isn't the fault of Dusk, but that of the player for not assessing the enemy team well enough, OR the team in question has taken considerable risks and tradeoffs to allow their Dusk to hold Ultranecrozium Z, hurting their consistency. These types of risks are common across all sorts of teams in all tiers, and this isn't so different. I don't believe these cases are enough to point the finger at Dusk and say it deserves to be tested, and I get the feeling from many players that this is a common opinion anyway (see the recent VR update for a small example). I do appreciate the posts on both sides, however, as this discussion is worth having.
IF (this is a strong if) something is to be suspect tested for a ban in the near future, it would be Ultranecrozium Z. While this suffers from the collateral of Dawn losing a viable set, I believe this is a lesser evil than doing a very complex test of trying to prevent Dusk from holding Ultranecrozium Z. It is much cleaner in tiering policy, as it is essentially a mega stone that two formes can hold. The view that its unique mechanics make the in-battle counterplay regarding Ultra Necrozma too constraining is an interesting perspective that I think may be worth posing a suspect test around. Posts regarding this idea are encouraged because remember - a test is only worthwhile with sufficient community support.
ps: bp is not on the to-do list
IF (this is a strong if) something is to be suspect tested for a ban in the near future, it would be Ultranecrozium Z. While this suffers from the collateral of Dawn losing a viable set, I believe this is a lesser evil than doing a very complex test of trying to prevent Dusk from holding Ultranecrozium Z. It is much cleaner in tiering policy, as it is essentially a mega stone that two formes can hold. The view that its unique mechanics make the in-battle counterplay regarding Ultra Necrozma too constraining is an interesting perspective that I think may be worth posing a suspect test around. Posts regarding this idea are encouraged because remember - a test is only worthwhile with sufficient community support.
ps: bp is not on the to-do list
In the team preview you see Dusk-Mane. I guess you can assess whether the dusk mane is defensive with sr tox. But if there is a rocker/steel, then you have to worry about possible offensive sets and then the torture begins. Let me list some sets that you have to keep in mind while assessing:
1)dual dance solgalium z, 2)trick room wp, 3)sd sr solgalium, 4)sr ultra necro, 5)sd ultranecro, 6) cm ultra necro, 7) mixed ultra necro, 8)weird sets (brick break or smth) ultra necro... thats on top of my head.
So i am not so sure that the arguement about the element of surprise is something to pass on. I would consider an ultra necro suspect at least, which would minimize the possible dusk mane sets. Eh just my two cents.
i havent been active fora while but i do not support suspecting dm/unecro. its the true thinking about all of it variants only makes you realise it got no checks and you cannot make a team that doesnt autolose to one of them between sd unecro , sdef variants or trick room/weakness policy ones in addition to weird sets such as brick break/mixed unecro not to note that light that burns the sky gets a kill everytime if you have the right variant of unecro but hasnt other metas like ou been like that all the time.isnt suspecting something to make the meta more controlable making it worse not better we would see the same teams again and again because you actually know you dont have to prepare for unecro hence limiting diversity and making it rather a bad meta such as late sm.
bp was banned for a Eevee bp team, which made some teams have a bad mu even impossible to win, but in fact it's Eevium Z caused that extreme boost, then it's really tough to revenge kill since the boost of bulk and speed at the same time, not the whole of bp. Besides, it's obvious to see that bp do have something to the diversification of the current Meta, such as bp Blaziken and Shedinja stall. Thus I'd say it should be considered to unban bp as well as ban Eevium Z.
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cielbakasan
Banned deucer.
Ban eevee for ubers
INSANE CARZY GUY
Banned deucer.
God I love shednija stall and miss dicking over full BP ingrain stall teams with torment and shednija switches
But even sub passing is pretty dirty with burn support. You would have to ban near all Z move options that give a boost to kill BP non sense for good. I 100% support dry passing and believe its actually healthy for a meta, just You have to have a list like
No speed boost/moxie
No Z-moves
No boosting moves
Sub
And really outside of shedy I really can't speak on who would be a great dry passer, just would be a hell of a way to bring in a trapper and baton pass is the tech choice for bad coverage for some mons
It's weirdly in and out of the spirit of uber's to unban dry pass
Great reads on Ultra dusk, uber's is my favorite tier to ghost since ou started getting gross
But even sub passing is pretty dirty with burn support. You would have to ban near all Z move options that give a boost to kill BP non sense for good. I 100% support dry passing and believe its actually healthy for a meta, just You have to have a list like
No speed boost/moxie
No Z-moves
No boosting moves
Sub
And really outside of shedy I really can't speak on who would be a great dry passer, just would be a hell of a way to bring in a trapper and baton pass is the tech choice for bad coverage for some mons
It's weirdly in and out of the spirit of uber's to unban dry pass
Great reads on Ultra dusk, uber's is my favorite tier to ghost since ou started getting gross
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