np: SV UU Stage 2.1 - HandClap

[Lavern]

and Espeon is also here for some reason. I genuinely have no idea why this rose, it's literally C+ on the viability rankings, were we really coping that hard for Hatterene?

Super short post, but Espeon has a great niche on screens HO, and it's great on those teams. Magic Bounce prevents Defog from removing your screens, which is huge, and being able to deter rocks from being set up against you is also nice. My guess is that it's most likely being used on those teams, since I've seen some variations of my screens HO team on the ladder recently.

 

[MasterPlayer]

Makes me wonder if Gengar will still be as high of usage as it currently is now that Scizor is in the tier

 

[Miguling]

NOOOOOO MY ARMABOY THIS IS THE WORST TIMELINE I secretly wanted his spooky brother to drop so I could use both of them in UU TT~TT

Grimm dropping to UU is bound to be interesting, because otherwise our only real user of Prankster in UU was Grafaiai. During my short time in OU, the only thing I'd see it run is Taunt + Dual Screens, so I'm curious to see what's most viable for our hairy boy here.

 

[Vastus]

Grimmsnarl dropping is a surprise for sure. I was running Scream Tail screens HO while getting adjusted to the tier, but I guess it's time to swap. Only real advantage Scream has is SR and Encore, but Prankster Taunt to deny opposing hazards seems more valuable at a glance.

 

[Queen of Bean]

i think i hate grimmsnarl already...

 

[sleestacks]

i think i hate grimmsnarl already...

just run brick break slowking smh...

anyway, I'd like to bring attention to just how awesome Choice Band Scizor is right now. "ooh but talonflame ooh flame body ooh" shut up, the future is now. please welcome scizor, destroyer of offense:

Importable

Francis Clampazzo (Scizor) @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 196 HP / 252 Atk / 60 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- U-Turn
- Close Combat
- Aerial Ace (for Tauros) / Trailblaze (for Gastro/Quaggles)

all calcs refrenced in this post will have their source at the bottom!

you all have already heard about choice band scizor. it's the most famous scizor set of all time, and it's back in gen 9 to crush the dreams of that one dude on the ladder who runs 5 pokemon frailer than haxorus and a grimmsnarl. like, you know that scizor's choice band bullet punch is a remarkably strong priority move, but i'm not sure that all of you realize how remarkably strong it is, especially when considering tera steel. don't belive me? well, did you know that:

- noivern takes 83% minimum from a CB tera steel bullet punch?
- gengar has a 62.5% chance to die to bullet punch without tera?
- offensive salamence takes 78% minimum from a CB tera steel bullet punch?
- haxorus takes 80.5% minimum from a CB tera steel bullet punch?

you get the point. its a fantastic revenge killer and wallbreaker. but, you may still be worried about talonflame, as it resists all of scizor's strongest moves and can burn with flame body. well, you would be right. scizor has, however, two options for beating talonflame:

1. tera blast rock/electric (low skill, quick, makes for good clickbait)
2. build a good team around pressuring talonflame (difficult, can take ages, nobody cares)

i'll be assuming that you picked option two, as pokemon players don't know how to be cool (and also losing out on tera steel really sucks). scizor is best offensively paired with a strong electric/water type that doesn't care about talonflame's burns or can help pivot scizor in, such as sandy shocks, slowking, natural cure pawmot. next, you'll probably want something that baits talonflame in and can cripple it. my personal choice most of the time is stealth rock + knock off tinkaton, as talonflame wants to defog tink's hazards, allowing you to get rid off its boots. choice band aerial ace does around 59% minimum to speedy talonflame, so just rocks or some chip from a status should be enough to muscle past it.

in addition to talonflame, rotom-heat gives scizor a decent amount of trouble. if it doesn't have HP investment, it takes just a few hitpoints under 100% from close combat, though, so a good prediction in conjunction with some chip damage will make bullet punch a very free move. the way that it effortlessly switches into bullet punch and threatens an overheat/will-o-wisp is quite annoying, though.

now, for my next teambuilding suggestion,s i'm mostly just theorycrafting, as i haven't had enough time to try out all of the teambuilding possibilities.

scizor probably would love some way to heal off any burns obtained while trying to wear down talonflame. in my opinion, the best way to do this would be from either healing wish gardevoir or revival blessing pawmot. both of these options, in addition to providing a way for scizor to cure its burns, also support scizor by beating one of its best checks. gardevoir can psychic opposing tauros, and pawmot can double-shock opposing talonflame. the choice is really up to you and what type of team you want to make.

also, in theory, weavile is a fantastic partner for scizor, making a double-choice-band tag team. scizor baits in flying types trying to resist u-turn like nothing else, giving weavile the freest opportunities to click ice spinner 6 times. or at least, weavile beats most of scizor's switchins, but we'll get to that later.

it's later!

there's one llast ittle thing that's still standing in the way of scizor going to UUBL, and it's this dude:

can you even imagine that this badass bug robot is walled by a literal bull?

this is the truest scizor counter there is, as scizor is cleanly killed by raging bull and hates the thought of being will-o-wisped. in addition, your coverage for it is weaker than you'd think, clocking in at just 50.2% maximum. this is annoyingly low considering that you're forced out every time that tauros switches in and your other moves do pitiful damage, making prediction an absolute nightmare. the best advice I have for dealing with fire tauros is just to stack those hazards. this thing has no reliable recovery, so spiking and stealth rocking is the key to victory. in case they have a scream tail to wish it up to full HP,, I recommend a poison spreader like grafaiai or quaggles to put a permanent timer on these walls.

and that's about it! before leaving, I'd like to just say that I think that scizor is a really good addition to the tier. it's certainly strong, but not overbearing as you can probably tell by how I described the difficulty of beating its counters. the addition of a second choice for "u-turner with priority" makes voltturn, offense, balance and more an absolute blast to build with and play with. as for its matchup versus offensive teams, it's of course strong, but there are good HO pokemon that tank its hits okay enough ike gyarados or opposing priority sweepers like Lucario that can be a lot of trouble for a chipped scizor. plus, if it's screens HO, that makes the scizor player need a lot more chip before they can revenge kill. not to say that scizor isnt strong, of course, as you just read me ramble about how much i love it.

thanks for reading! here's a team that I made with banded scizor (although theres plenty of room for improvement), and have fun underusing!

calcs

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Tera Steel Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Noivern: 260-306 (83.6 - 98.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 244-288 (93.4 - 110.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Tera Steel Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 260-306 (78.5 - 92.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Tera Steel Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Haxorus: 236-278 (80.5 - 94.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Aerial Ace vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Talonflame: 212-250 (59 - 69.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rotom-Heat: 203-239 (84.2 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tauros-Paldea-Blaze: 150-178 (42.3 - 50.2%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO

 

[Melt Gibson]

Arma leaving is a huuuge surprise, not gonna lie. Loving Grimmsnarl right now, HO is the most fun it's been in a while, expect a post with some sets I've been liking a lot soon. I think Scizor is gonna be just fine, things that already exist in the tier can stop it pretty well and having a Steel that isn't Tinkaton is a huge relief. Sorry for the short post, longer one soon!

 

[Queen of Bean]

there's one llast ittle thing that's still standing in the way of scizor going to UUBL

do you really think scizor is bannable? i dont think scizor gets all that many chances to come in and when it does it just gets checks by sandy shocks or tauros or talonflame or whatever when it does, in my experience atleast. like if your team is getting owned by scizor i think your doing something wrong, it doesnt appreciate the meta very much.

but i did want to talk about an offensive core with scizor that i think seems fun

the core

Scizor @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 196 HP / 252 Atk / 60 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Bullet Punch
- U-turn
- Quick Attack

Tauros-Paldea-Blaze (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 80 HP / 176 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Raging Bull
- Close Combat
- Will-O-Wisp

with this core tauros lures alot of the flying types that sciz doesnt like and bops when with stone edge aswell as being nice into alot of the meta right now, breaking screens and countering opposing scizor n stuff. and scizor can u turn for free on the mons tauros doesnt like, like slowking.

edit: please dont run swarm scizor LMAO

 

[Rawbi]

Thinking of alternative sets for Grimmsnarl than Screens setter because I'm a hipster.

Grimmsnarl (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Crunch
- Fire Punch
- Play Rough
- Trick

Grimmsnarl doesn't have access to great Attack boosting moves, so CB is a good way to make him hit hard off the bat. Prankster CB Trick can also serve as a means to cripple walls and set-up mons. Grimmsnarl lost Darkest Lariat this generation, but Crunch has only five less BP and has a chance to drop Defense. Play Rough deals with Dark and Fighting types who want to switch in on Crunch and is Grimmsnarl's most spammable move. Fire Punch covers Steel types. Tera Fire boosts your Fire Punch damage and makes you resist Bullet Punches, Gigaton Hammers, etc. Max Speed Jolly creeps Bisharp, ties with Timid Magnezone, and outspeeds utility Tinkaton, though you can run Adamant for more power or make up your own EV spread to hit whatever benchmark you need.

I have yet to try this so take this post with a grain of salt.

Also this thing gets Nasty Plot and 95 base SpAtk is okay but yeah probably no.

 

[sleestacks]

do you really think scizor is bannable?

certainly not... i use a lot of hyperbole in my writing because it's frankly more entertaining to talk about a pokemon like it's mega rayquaza than it is to talk about a pokemon like it's maractus. i'll keep in mind that i should probably tone that down a bit.

anyway, here's a little more scizor for you, with an offensive core that I discovered just a few hours ago and really like:

Importable

Scizor @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 192 HP / 252 Atk / 64 Spe
Adamant Nature
- U-turn
- Bullet Punch
- Aerial Ace
- Close Combat

Pawmot @ Air Balloon
Ability: Natural Cure
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Double Shock
- Close Combat
- Seed Bomb
- Revival Blessing

Slowking @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf
- Future Sight
- Slack Off
- Chilly Reception

the basic idea here is that slowking takes advantage of scizor's two biggest enemies, talonflame and tauros-fire, by using them as future sight bait for pawmot to break down walls with ease. in addition, scizor u-turns out of flying types for pawmot to double shock down easily. pawmot has natural cure in order to shrug off burns from talonflame and toxics from quagsire, letting it break through much easier for scizor, especially with future sight support. finally, pawmot's revival blessing allows for scizor to come back lategame to clean weakened teams with its bullet punch. in fact, scizor makes for a fantastic revival blessing user as most of the time it's using a priority move and thus won't care about being at half health.

 

[Queen of Bean]

hey you didnt have to bring maractus into this little guy did nothing wrong

 

[Lavern]

First thoughts that I want to share real quick, going to make a bigger post later. I just want to address one thing, and share my first thoughts on Grimmsnarl.

Grimmsnarl is actual ass as a screens setter.
Like, genuinely, it is the worst screen setter we have atm, even Klefki, another awful screens setter is better than Grimmsnarl. Screens have been one of my main playstyles on ladder, and they've seen good success there, as well as in some tournament settings. So at first I was excited for Grimmsnarl, I thought, finally, a screen setter that bring more attention to screens and get them banned. However, after playing multiple games with Grimmsnarl, trying different teams, and absolutely tanking my ladder rating, I realized that Grimmsnarl isn't even close to what I expected it to be. Quite the opposite actually, it's unironically the worst screen setter. I'm going to compare it to the other screen setters, and give the cons of each, to showcase just how dogshit Grimmsnarl actually is at setting screens.

- Magic Bounce prevents Defog from clearing screens on your side, which is huge. Aside from that, Magic Bounce also allows you to deter hazards from being set up against you. Yawn is a great utility move which prevents non Lum Berry setup sweepers from setting up on you. Psychic is also a decently strong STAB to work with.

- A screen setter that spinblocks is huge, as that allows you to run Cloyster over Polt on your screens teams. Encore is also very important. It shuts down setup sweepers that aren't Tyranitar, or Bisharp. It lets you lock spinners into Rapid Spin, and it also allows you to Encore the opposing mon into a favorable move as you sac Sableye

- Now, Klefki is dogshit. I would never use it on a screens HO team, but it has some qualities that still make it better than Grimmsnarl. Steel Beam is good, because you want your sweepers to come in without taking a hit, as that makes it easier for them to sweep through the team. Spikes can also be useful, should you have a lead that only sets up rocks. However, Foul Play is always better in cases where you don't need Spikes, making it difficult for the opponent to use it as setup fodder. Awful mon though

- Actual dogshit, just like Klefki. First off, priority Parting Shot on a screens setter is really not good. If anything, you want a slower parting shot. Let's use this scenario, you have Polteageist in the back, it has a potential sweep. You have both screens up, and are currently facing Sandy Shocks with Grimmsnarl out. To tilt this scenario more in the favor of Grimmsnarl and Parting Shot, the Sandy Shocks is going to be locked into Earth Power (I know Scarf Shocks is awful, I'm trying to give Parting Shot the best case scenario here). You use Parting Shot, Sandy Shocks is now at -1, and you switch into Polteageist, which takes 17% from Earth Power. You Shell Smash, and Sandy Shocks uses Earth Power again, and you take another 17%, so 34% in total. If you didn't use Parting Shot, and you just let Grimmsnarl die, so that Polt comes in for free, how much would it have taken from 1 Earth Power? 26%. This is what I mean about Parting Shot being ass for a screens team. Like, Parting Shot is amazing on other team structures, where you have offensive breakers that can force something out, or where you have defensive backbones. But with screens, you have sweepers, who always need a turn to set up, and your opponent knows that. So your opponent will stay in and attack them twice. Which means that Parting Shot will always result in your sweepers taking more damage than they should've. Aside from that, Grimmsnarl has a huge 4mss, which should just not be a thing on a screens setter. Grimmsnarl wants Spirit Break to make setup for the sweepers easier, but it also wants Foul Play to not be complete setup fodder when it needs to set up screens, as well as Brick Break/Drain Punch so that it isn't complete fodder to Bisharp. There are just so many issues with Grimmsnarl that the other screeners simply don't suffer from. You could say that Klefki has a 4mss with Spikes/Foul Play, but that is easily solved by just having a Spikes + Rocks lead on your team.

I do believe, or want to believe, that Grimmsnarl is going to be good in this meta. It has some good potential sets, Taunt/Sub + Bulk Up with tera steel looks great, an offensive 3 attacks pivot with Parting Shot should be good, and even Choice Band looks like it could have some use. However, the dual screens set is just absolutely awful, and there is no niche that it fulfills, as Parting Shot isn't anything that you want to use on screens anyways. Sableye gives you role compression in being a spinblocker, while being just amazing vs setup, thanks to Prankster Encore, and Espeon prevents Defog from clearing your screens, which is really important. Klefki is ass, but even that has a better case than Grimmsnarl.

tl;dr: Screens Grimmsnarl is fucking ass, don't use it. And if you are going to use it, use Foul Play + Spirit Break/Brick Break. Parting Shot is dogshit on screens HO.

 

[FiboDoesPokemon]

Thinking of alternative sets for Grimmsnarl than Screens setter because I'm a hipster.

Grimmsnarl (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Crunch
- Fire Punch
- Play Rough
- Trick

Grimmsnarl doesn't have access to great Attack boosting moves, so CB is a good way to make him hit hard off the bat. Prankster CB Trick can also serve as a means to cripple walls and set-up mons. Grimmsnarl lost Darkest Lariat this generation, but Crunch has only five less BP and has a chance to drop Defense. Play Rough deals with Dark and Fighting types who want to switch in on Crunch and is Grimmsnarl's most spammable move. Fire Punch covers Steel types. Tera Fire boosts your Fire Punch damage and makes you resist Bullet Punches, Gigaton Hammers, etc. Max Speed Jolly creeps Bisharp, ties with Timid Magnezone, and outspeeds utility Tinkaton, though you can run Adamant for more power or make up your own EV spread to hit whatever benchmark you need.

I have yet to try this so take this post with a grain of salt.

Also this thing gets Nasty Plot and 95 base SpAtk is okay but yeah probably no.

P-shot banded is more funi

 

[Melt Gibson]

Alright! So here are my more detailed thoughts on Scizor


Scizor @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- U-turn
- Trailblaze
- Close Combat

This is the set I've been running. Trailblaze with technician is honestly just excellent overall, being able to smack Quagsire and Gastrodon without having to give up your Tera for it is really good. Band Trailblaze just immediately kills, and banded CC also two-shots which is super fun. Tera Steel BP hits like a truck. Slow pivoting through U-Turn and offering another option for steels outside of Tinkaton is also lovely. I've been trying it on Screens HO and it's very good at getting things like Cloyster or Polteageist into position.


Scizor @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- U-turn/Tera Blast
- Trailblaze

Another one I've been thinking of, although I'm not as jazzed on this one. I feel like with Roost being cut (actual fucking daylight robbery), SD and Defog sets are just... kinda mid? Being pretty much forced to run U-Turn also hurts a little. Tera Fire with boots seems nice though, because it atleast allows you to not lose to Talonflame through getting burned. U-Turn provides more utility for the team while Tera Blast Fire allows for better management of opposing Scizor and Tinkaton. Really cool stuff! Wish that it was a little faster so you could actually take advantage of Trailblaze's speed boosting. you can probably EV this better than I did. 36 Jolly or 104 Adamant lets you outspeed max speed Slither Wing after a Trailblaze if you're into that. 144 Jolly lets you do the same for Sandy Shocks, which also gives you this funny little calc:

+2 252+ Atk Technician Scizor Trailblaze vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Sandy Shocks: 368-434 (118.3 - 139.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Overall I think Scizor is pretty cool. Has a decent host of problems, the biggest of which being that hazard chip eats it alive, but it is definitely a big thing to watch out for in a tier where the best fire is Talonflame.

 

[Liz Angeles]

Not normally one to make posts like this but I genuinely hate the current state of sv uu. The biggest reason for this is teambuilding is completely awful right now and in my opinion there are 3 different reasons for this.
1) Limited hazard removal options
2) Specs gengar
3) Sandy Shocks/Tera Blast

When it comes to point 1, I think having limited removal options can be a positive for the metagame, however it is very restrictive. Most of the pokemon with access to defog or rapid spin aren't very good outside of that, and which removal option you run normally comes down to the least worst option. This is fine on its own, but combined with other restrictive forces in the metagame it begins to spiral.

To me specs gengar is the biggest elephant in the room when it comes to the current meta. There is no true counter to this mon, and even true checks are hard to find. Tinkaton can get 2hkod by tera ghost specs shadow ball which can force you to tera dark and pray they don't switch out and beat you again later, and every other check can get ruined by a coverage move (focus blast for dark types, energy ball for gastro) or trick. I don't think this on its own makes it broken, because you can check specs gengar structurally. Normally I do this by running tyranitar or wo chien and a pivot that can tank any one hit and scout the move, and you can generally be safe vs shadow ball spam with these types of structures.

However, the big problem with this is gengar isn't forced to run specs. Life orb gengar is in my opinion very underexplored, hex and tspikes are seeing not insignificant usage, and even if you do face specs gengar with a team that checks it structurally so to speak, it often just clicks trick and now you can't pivot around it anymore because it can switch moves. In my opinion this mon is completely ridiculous and should be suspected and banned asap, and that's without even really exploring how restrictive the structures it forces you to run are, which just makes building even more awful.

Finally I wanted to give an honorable mention to sandy shocks. I don't really think this mon is broken or banworthy, but it is arguably even more restrictive than gengar. The frustrating thing with this mon in my opinion is that you're essentially forced to run two checks, one for tera ice which is generally the strongest vs the tier, and one for tera grass which bops most of the tera ice checks. Normally I've accomplished this by running gastrodon + talonflame/altaria/wo chien. With talonflame you're generally forced to dedicate a tera to checking it if it's tera grass, but it allows you to scout the set quite well by switching in on potential tera grass tera blast while also covering a lot of potential switch ins. I just really feel if I'm not running gastrodon or sp def hippo tera ice becomes borderline unbearable to play against, and even with these two solid checks you're often forced to tera to deal with it.

To me this issue is less to do with sandy shocks and more to do with tera blast allowing too many bs scenarios. Two scenarios I've experienced a lot are random tera blast grass on physical sweepers to blow through quag, or random tera blast flying on gyarados to blow through wo chien. I mention these because there are generally far more consistent sets that gyarados can run, and switching your counter out of a mon at +2 is generally not a good idea, especially since a lot of teams will stack mons that are weak to the mon they're trying to lure and figuring out which mon has the coverage for you is generally just guesswork. I don't think we're likely to ban tera blast unless ou does, but we probably should because its stupid.

 

[Negative Charge]

Scizor's playstyle has undergone significant changes in the absence of Roost; I hope roost comes back with home. With regard to Specs Gengar, it is undoubtedly the most efficient breaker in the tier, despite potential concerns. In my team composition featuring Maushold and Scizor, I capitalize on opportunities for free setup following a sack to the Specs Gengar. I think there are enough options to punish gengars choiced STAB options that I really don't think it's broken. I think a more compelling argument would come from its utility/sub/hex sets, I'd love to see some replays from pro-ban people too.

 

[Miguling]

To me this issue is less to do with sandy shocks and more to do with tera blast allowing too many bs scenarios. Two scenarios I've experienced a lot are random tera blast grass on physical sweepers to blow through quag, or random tera blast flying on gyarados to blow through wo chien. I mention these because there are generally far more consistent sets that gyarados can run, and switching your counter out of a mon at +2 is generally not a good idea, especially since a lot of teams will stack mons that are weak to the mon they're trying to lure and figuring out which mon has the coverage for you is generally just guesswork. I don't think we're likely to ban tera blast unless ou does, but we probably should because its stupid.

You see, this reminds me of Espathra's quickban from SV OU following Chien-Pao's departure, where a big argument against it was the fact it could just handpick its tera type to a great selection of options, which made consistent checks and counters to its CM + SP impossible. The very fact Shocks' busted behavior is because of Terastallization as well is making me think we're going to see another suspect test for Terastallization coming, and with the growing amount of bans that were done because a hefty part of the argument was tera I can see the balance shifting in the ban's favor this time.

Gengar doesn't feel that busted to me mostly because none of its common sets include priority and it's weak to Sucker Punch. Among potential users of the move we have Bisharp and Lokix, and while Grimm also has it Prankster Screens with literally no attacking moves seems to be the hip and trendy thing right now. And if you tell me "you can just tera to a resist" then that's another proof tera needs to be reviewed again tbh.

 

[TheTraininator]

Ehh. If you allow a universal tool to exist, it’s evidently going to push more than one Pokémon over the edge. The fact that there’s usually only been around 2 or 3 Pokémon per tier that are pushed over the edge by Tera despite Tera Blast also being universal is actually a point in favor of how manageable it is imo. Compare that to how many Pokémon have been pushed over the edge over the past few gens by Choice Band/Specs making them too strong to reliably switch into. Would anyone argue that we should ban those? Hopefully not. If Sandy Shocks is too restrictive, just ban Sandy Shocks. I guarantee you Tera Ice Jolteon is not gonna replace it.

 

[Mossy Sandwich]

Hi I'd like to talk about Gengar. Gengar has been a very dangerous special attacker since Alpha and has remained so for the entire duration of the tier so far. A few people want to see it banned and, while I do think the same, my reasons are slightly different and I'll explain those later. For now, I'd like to highlight how Gengar is most commonly used and the strengths and drawbacks that come with it.


Gengar @ Choice Specs
Ability: Cursed Body
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Bomb
- Focus Blast
- Trick
This is the most common Gengar set at the moment and the one which the meta has built itself around. It's at a point where Specs Gengar has been explored enough that it won't get better or worse unless certain mons that interact with it drop from OU. Now, let's see what it does well.

Pros:
-Extremely strong with good coverage, the only pokemon that can take 2 of any moves before Tera are Tinkaton, Gastrodon, SpDef Hippo and Blissey.
-Very good speed tier for its power and is the reason why most teams will have a mon naturally faster than it like Talonflame or Noivern. Gengar defines UU Speed Tiers.
-Ghost resistances are unable to take its other moves. Most Dark and Normal types are incredibly afraid of Focus Blast, generally getting 1HKO'd if they're weak to it and some, notably Wo-Chien and Iron Jugulis, can also be taken down by Sludge Bomb.
-Can make its way past some of its best answers using options like Tera Ghost to 2HKO non-resists like Tinkaton or Trick to cripple Blissey.
-If your opponent lacks a Ghost resist, Tera Ghost+Shadow Ball spam is extremely free and is pretty much impossible to answer without your own Tera.
-Fighting and Normal immunity gives it the ability to switch into Close Combat from Slither Wing and Rapid Spin from Tsareena among others, applying a ton of pressure to these pokemon as giving a free switch to Gengar can end very badly.

Now, for the issues
Cons:
-Very frail, can be risky to switch-in and can be easily revenge-killed by faster mons or strong priority.
-Abusable Choice-Lock, Gengar is very easy to answer defensively once you know what move it's going to use and pokemon like Dragon Dance Tyranitar can even use it to threaten a sweep.
-Can be prediction reliant as using the wrong move against switchins like Grafaiai means the effort to get Gengar on the field led to nothing.

Alright so first, I bolded the points I think are most relevant and define how the metagame has built itself around Gengar. Now that we have a clearer look at what Gengar does, we can address how players generally build and play around it to try to deal with it. In general, most teams end up answering it with the following core: A special wall that can tank 3 Shadow Balls (Tinkaton, Gastrodon, Hippowdon) + A Ghost resistance (Grafaiai, Tyranitar, Wo-Chien, Bisharp...). In practice, a player will first switch into their special wall in order to see what move Gengar locks itself into. Then, if that move is Shadow Ball, they can switch into their Ghost resist. Sludge Bomb and Focus Blast are generally manageable enough that they don't need to be prepared for. This is generally a very safe gameplan against Gengar, though it's not rare for people to use their special wall alongside Tera Dark or Tera Normal to deal with Tera Ghost Shadow Ball and some people gamble by hard-switching into their Ghost resists. In general though, I would like to highlight that this is a similar process to how Urshifu-S was dealt with when it was still legal in Gen 8 OU. Obviously, the comparisons aren't one for one as Gengar is faster and more difficult to get on the field, but needing two somewhat specific options to deal with it is not a great sign of balance. I've found having to fit those special walls not weak to any of Gengar's common options fairly limiting on teambuilding lately as, while these are good picks on most teams, it's rather easy to take advantage of these trends. However, I would once again like to highlight that the best way to deal with Gengar is taking advantage of its choice-lock. The vast majority of players have only been using Specs Gengar or, on some occasions, Scarf, but I would like to encourage the use of more diverse sets that can turn the tables on standard counterplay and, alongside Specs, make the mon banworthy in my eyes.

Let's start with the most simple set

Gengar @ Life Orb
Ability: Cursed Body
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Bomb
- Focus Blast
- Nasty Plot
If your opponent uses the standard counterplay I highlighted earlier, this set just needs to hit a Focus Blast to take a kill, force a revenge-killer in and become impossible to switch into for the remainder of the game. If you get a Nasty Plot on the switch then Tera to Fighting, standard Tinkaton and SpDef Hippo get 1HKO'd and Gastrodon has a 7/8 chance to get 1HKO'd unless it Teras to Poison which still leaves it in a losing matchup to Shadow Ball. The only way realistic way to deal with this set for most teams at this point is to dodge the Focus Blast or to stay in on a set they don't know. This set shows one of the big problems with Gengar for me: while in the absence of any development, Specs has become manageable, if players are willing to explore more, its answers can change dramatically and it becomes more difficult to stop it from making progress.


Gengar @ Air Balloon
Ability: Cursed Body
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hex / Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast
- Nasty Plot
- Will-O-Wisp / Toxic Spikes
This set is pretty flexible, the main idea here though is Air Balloon. This set shows that Gengar can adapt to the meta and take advantage of what's available to it to find more switch-in opportunities, in this case against Quagsire and Stone Edge-less Hippowdon. A Gengar that can get consistent switch-in opportunities is terrifying and this is another set that is absolutely viable, but extremely undervalued currently. Here's a tournament replay where my opponent is prepared for Specs Gengar, but has much more trouble answering Nasty Plot sets defensively and where my Gengar finds a setup opportunity against the Quagsire: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-678066


Gengar @ Spell Tag
Ability: Cursed Body
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hex
- Sludge Bomb
- Focus Blast
- Nasty Plot
Status Spam+Gengar is also very underutilized at the moment. Did you know that a +2 Spell Tag Hex one shots Tinkaton without needing your Tera? This is another set that can bypass standard counterplay completely while still remaining extremely threatening in a vacuum. This one does need proper support, but it's absolutely worth investing into, especially if you manage to paralyze your opponent's speed control options as Gengar can only be stopped by Priority at this point.

There are some other probably more gimmicky sets like Substitute+Disable or Trick+Black Sludge, but overall, I feel that Gengar is very underexplored at the moment and that the way its one main set warps the metagame at the moment leaves the meta wide open for some adaptation. It's hard to say it's outright broken since these sets have not been experimented with much at all recently, but I believe we should play around with Gengar's options more as it has a lot of untapped potential at the moment.

 

[Melt Gibson]

Hi! I'd like to share a Scizor set I've been working on that I think is overall very good at capitalizing on current trends and how Scizor functions overall in the tier.


Scizor @ Heavy-Duty Boots/Life Orb
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 112 HP / 252 Atk / 144 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- Trailblaze
- Tera Blast/Close Combat

EVs are pretty straightforward, 144 Speed with a Jolly nature allows you to outpace max Speed Sandy Shocks after a Trailblaze, and a lot of things you aren't faster than take huge damage from or outright drop to Bullet Punch. Max Attack for max damage, and the HP is leftovers. You could probably optimize this more!

So, what's the point? Well, Tera Fire on SD Scizor is, obviously, not a new development, nor is it one I'm going to attempt to take credit for. Being able to muscle your way through Talonflame is an invaluable quality. However, Sandy Shocks, which is undeniably one of the best offensive pivots and overall threats in the metagame, beats you regardless. Removing it from the game beforehand would be the optimal play, but due to Sandy Shocks often slipping in and out of the field, that can end up being a tall order (Also, beating the shit out of it is more fun). Also, having the extra speed from Trailblaze has the handy side effect of improving your matchup versus opposing Scizor. It also allows you to eliminate Tinkaton handily, as +2 Bullet Punch sadly does not give you a kill from full. You're also able to take advantage of Magnezone that may attempt to trap or set up on you. Trailblaze serves as a handy tool for killing Gastrodon, as well as preventing Quagsire from walling you out via Unaware.


Things Faster Than You That Die To Bullet Punch:

Gengar - +2 252 Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 297-349 (113.7 - 133.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Noivern - +2 252 Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Noivern: 237-279 (76.2 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Scarf Gardevoir - 252 Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gardevoir: 278-330 (100.3 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Maushold - +2 252 Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Maushold: 262-310 (90.6 - 107.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Offensive Grafaiai - +2 252 Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Grafaiai: 279-328 (104.4 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Espeon - +2 252 Atk Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 297-349 (109.5 - 128.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO


So, what problems do you run into?

This.

Scizor needs Aerial Ace to deal with Tauros, which unfortunately just does not fit in this set. Intimidate immediately grinds you to a halt, and even with Close Combat, you don't do enough damage to a healthy Tauros to keep yourself alive. You also have the issue of preventing other setup threats from having their way, meaning that partners with Encore, Trick, Taunt, etc. are pretty much required to give Scizor enough breathing room to get going, as SD sets aren't nearly as comfortable acting as a doorstop for fast sweepers. Espeon, Scream Tail, and Tinkaton all get the job done, as well as strong Psychics like Gallade and Gardevoir. Flying types to deal with the bulls are also plentiful, such as Iron Jugulis, Noivern, Salamence, and Staraptor, all of which excel in covering for Scizor.

I'm still mostly a fan of CB, but if nothing else I'm gonna keep trying to like SD. Might post more on this if I optimize the set any further!

 

[pokemonisfun]

​

hiya people, i just wanted to share my thoughts on sandy shocks, which has become a really opressive threat in the meta that i think there is some merit to banning.

sandy shocks has amazing stab coverage thats further enhanced by tera blast grass to hit gastrodon at the expense of missing out on hitting grasses or tera ice for bolt beam coverage, this mon doesnt really have many good checks that cant be beaten by the right tera type. to list a few, hippowdon and wo chien get 2hkoed by terablast with a spike up and gastrodon gets bopped by terablast grass. sandy shocks can come in easily on alot of meta pokemon like talonflame and tinkaton if it hasnt terad and generate momentum with volt switch or get up a hazard. theres very little defensive counterplay to sandy shocks currently with alot of the blanket special walls like chansey being not very well suited to the fast paced meta with their passive presence on teams which makes sandy shocks in my opinion, quite overbearing.

tldr: sandy shocks has coverage for the whole meta with the right teratype and is almost impossble to switch into as well as being very fast, very strong and providing good utility with hazards and a volt immunity. i think this should probably be suspect tested ?

This is a very interesting post I'd say, I don't think Sandy Shocks is broken for reasons I'll highlight later in the post, but Shocks does show the power of Tera Blast which is just as scary on something like Polteageist for example. Anyway I guess I'll address a couple of weaknesses that come with Tera Blast Sandy Shocks and why I don't think it's a big issue.

First of all is that obviously, Shocks has to dedicate its Tera slot to Ice or Grass and a moveslot to Tera Blast. The Tera Slot isn't a big deal, but the moveslot can be a decent problem. For Tera Blast, you're either dropping Thunderbolt or Hazards. Hazards are very important to Shocks' playstyle and dropping them can be a huge blow to the rest of your team since it's so good at stacking Spikes. Thunderbolt at a glance may seem less important, since you still have Volt Switch as an Electric moves, but the extra damage and ability to stay in can be extremely valuable against certain Flying types, especially if you don't want to Tera or are Tera Grass. Notably, Thunderbolt gives you the ability to outright 2HKO Salamence and Noivern which you would otherwise not only miss the kill on, but also be switching out of, potentially putting you at a disadvantage. It also KOs Talonflame unlike Volt Switch and puts more pressure on Oricorio-Pom-Pom which might find itself forced to Tera due to Thunderbolt and further 50/50s with Earth Power and Roost. In general, while Tera Blast can be very useful while Tera'd, if you find yourself in a matchup where you want to Tera something else, you might be missing a crucial move.

Another issue that pops up with Tera'd Sandy Shocks is just how bad it becomes defensively. Electric/Ground has some decent defensive utility, letting it take hits from Pawmot, Tinkaton or Talonflame, often forcing them to switch out and getting you a momentum or hazard advantage. However, if you Tera to Grass or Ice, you suddenly lose a lot of resists and may even gain rough weaknesses. Grass becomes threatened by Talonflame despite being an Electric type and becomes forced out by Slither Wing instead of being able to get chip on the way out with Volt Switch. Ice has it even worse, becoming fully unable to go up against Pawmot and failing to properly switch into previously resisted moves from Tinkaton, Bisharp or Tyranitar. Keep in mind those are all pokemon Shocks would usually be able to check or somewhat switch-into to apply pressure, but the much worse defensive typing makes it so much more difficult for it to properly perform its job, even if Tera Blast may have allowed it an extra KO earlier in the game. I think as far as Tera abusers go, there is much more threatening than Sandy Shocks as pokemon like Gardevoir or Lycanroc-Dusk generally don't have more trouble getting on the field and threatening out certain targets after the Tera since they don't rely as much on their defensive utility or don't lose much of it to begin with.

Lastly, I'd like to mention that, regardless of which Tera it picks, Sandy will still have holes in its coverage. It will always have issues fully getting through general special walls like Scream Tail and Blissey, but it also misses certain targets depending on whether it goes Grass or Ice, since Gastrodon isn't hit by Ice and Grass and Dragon types aren't hit by Grass. This is small, but again, certain Tera abusers are much more well-rounded and can always go with the same Tera Type as it will always be effective. Pawmot and Gengar are free to go with a Tera Type boosting their STAB moves to as they already carry all the coverage they need and can simply focus on wallbreaking more efficiently.

Anyway, while I do think Sandy Shocks can be annoying and threatening with Tera Blast, it's more of a good offensive pokemon rather than one that renders certain teams helpless, which is why I don't think action should be taken on it.

This was a super interesting discussion that I think is becoming relevant again. Both of can correct me if I'm wrong, but the gist of this was:

QoB (Grats on PS UU mod!): Tera Blast makes Sandy Shocks OP
Mossy: Tera has opportunity cost in terms of move slot and you become worse defensively

Mossy touched on it when discussing the move slot but I think what’s key to this dIscussion that hasn’t been treated yet is how absurdly good Sandy Shocks is at using hazards.

Particularly with Tera Ice, there’s not a single form of standard hazard control that can come in on Sandy Shocks even if it predicts correctly. Donphan, Tsareena, and Bramble all due to Tera Ice/Grass. Talonflame always loses to STAB and Altaria dies to Ice or Volt spam. Tatsugiri and Espeon are the best bets but arguably the most niche and still heavily fear switching in, especially as Tatsugiri lacks recovery and Espeon is seen as a niche HO mon which can’t often afford switching.

There is no Spiker (or SR user) that rivals Sandy Shocks in my view, it’s the #1 setter in UU and considering our Knock Off users, while limited, are incredibly splashable and good, (Tinkaton and WoChien being bulky enough to fit nearly everywhere) has created a hazard dynamic I find extremely concerning for the tier - Sandy Shocks plus one of those Knock Off users will nearly always wear down bulky teams and create nearly unstoppable attacks against frailer teams.

in this masters game https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-678820 I abuse hazards and Knock off users to make just a single layer of spikes incredibly difficult to switch around vs

an even better example is here in my drewtour game https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9uu-1821149842-ycf15qpfc2lut9l4gxeupmwk1bemtnspw Where I not only beat a stall but I quickly beat a stall team purely pressuring with rocks and slither wing, but it was abundantly obvious I could also have used Spikes on turn 29 or 28 for example to win via volt spam. That I had an easier win with Slither Wing shouldn’t discredit Sandy Shocks could have won too.

In short, I’m saying that not only is Sandy Shocks an incredible Tera user, our current Knock Off users and state of hazard control makes Sandy Shocks very potent at Spiking as well. I think it should get a suspect test based on that.

PS: Other things that should be tested imo: Gengar, Tyranitar, and I’m now believing Scizor to be borderline broken too. Trailblaze SD sets with Tera Steel or Fire feel overpowered to me. Gyarados is annoying as hell but I can’t really separate out my bias against it from legitimate suspect concerns...

 

[Lily]

Just to clarify on some recent discussion: we currently don't think Gengar is suspect worthy; while it's true that it does have a lot of options to break down its checks and counters, that has always been the case, and while we feel that the most commonly used sets right now (the Choice-locked ones) are good, they're also very manageable. If sets like NP Hex or SubWisp or others become more prevalent and dominant, we are willing to reconsider, but Gengar is unlikely to receive a test in the near future.

What we are talking about right now is our Electric-type duo, Sandy Shocks and Pawmot. Others have detailed it already, but Sandy Shocks is an unwallable pivoting machine that is only stopped by the opportunity cost of Tera and its own 4MSS. It is extremely restricting in the builder due to its power, bulk and incredible Speed tier. Pawmot, similarly, is a wallbreaker that is borderline unwallable thanks to it's amazing coverage, great natural power and wonderful Speed tier. Teams without Hippowdon have found themselves getting rolled over by it defensively. We will most definitely be keeping an eye on both Pokemon, though no promises are to come yet.

All discussion is appreciated as usual! Thank you very much :D

 

[Liz Angeles]

I don't really understand the sentiment that gengar is "manageable," because far more broken things than gengar have also been "manageable," it doesn't mean they weren't completely ridiculous to "manage." Overall I think gengar forces at least two of its checks onto most balance type builds and is still a menace most of the time. If this is what manageable means then that's cool ig.

Regardless of I feel about gengar though, what surprises me is that pawmot is apparently on the radar. Feels a hell of a lot easier to "manage" to me.

 

[pokemonisfun]

Pawmot, similarly, Gengar is a wallbreaker that is borderline unwallable thanks to it's amazing coverage, great natural power and wonderful Speed tier.

As Liz Angeles noted to me, I think we can just replace Pawmot with Gengar in this sentence and it would at least as true.

Still, I find your post fair enough, it's true that Gengar isn't running very many broken sets. But to use just one example, practically nobody used Tera Ghost SD Iron Hands before I posted about it, and some people (though not all), believed that set pushed it over the edge. To be blunt, I'm hopeful Mossy's post above (https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-sv-uu-stage-2-1-handclap.3715857/page-3#post-9538763) exposes Gengar as broken like my post helped for Iron Hands.

I have been on the receiving end of my 100% SpDef Tinkaton dying to a +2 Tera Fighting Life Orb Gengar which I found indicative of Gengar being broken. I just don't think it's defensible to keep such a game changing threat that simply OHKOs an otherwise common "counter" to it. Obviously it has drawbacks as well, as all Pokemon do, but I find it concerning that your initial reply to this mon being broken essentially "well nobody is using it right now."

Yes, I know, usage is important and if something isn't being used, that means it's indicative of some issue it has. But the fact it takes out a super common counter with basically no questions asked (apart from the miss chance), is disturbing to me and reminds me of Iron Hands annihilating Scream Tails with Tera Ghost.

 

[Estarossa]

Honestly I find myself surprised that Sandy Shocks is on the radar right now. Despite it being a very solid Pokemon I wouldn't begin to call it unwallable when this is only the case when it Tera's, (and even then live wo chien reaction) something that comes with huge opportunity cost by removing one of its major niches as a solid answer to the other two S rank Pokemon in the tier, something that gives it the splashability in teambuilding in the first place and act as some of the biggest entry points in general. There's also the 4mss aspect between choosing between tera blast and spikes, with the latter always giving consistent value but not making it some unwallable beast in the slightest thanks to gastro, hippo, wochien, bramble etc existing.

I think its a very solid Pokemon but its honestly fairly healthy in my eyes where it can provide a lot of value with good play and prediction while providing defensive value against talonflame and tinkaton especially, but alternatively with safer less aggro plays can suck up momentum and give reverse spikes from gastro / give up turns to shit like wo chien, and where its terastilization comes with really major downsides that have to be weighed up in practice as nuking gastro means you are no longer a talonflame switch-in at all etc (and if this is appropriately read with the gastro switching out and scouting with wochien etc could be especially dire since the trade-off didn't even pay off)

Pawmot on the other hand is much more understandeable and something i definitely support, there's much more limited counterplay to it in general defensively where it doesn't need Tera's to break anything really and the only opportunity cost is 4 attacks vs Rest on its LO sets, getting it in and clicking correct is likely to be guaranteed reward in general and its insane coverage gives it plenty of entry points. Its a high skill floor pokemon arguably but the potential output is absurd.