np: SV UU Stage 2.1 - HandClap

[Lily]

​

Hello all, in a truly unexpected move, the UU council has decided to put Iron Hands on the chopping block. This is our first suspect test of the generation!! Woo!! :D

Iron Hands was controversial the moment it dropped. Its titanic bulk lets it check just about anything in a 1v1; the list of commonly seen Pokemon that are capable of OHKOing Iron Hands is limited to Toxtricity and Gallade, both of which can flop into specific Tera types as well. In that sense, taking down Iron Hands tends to be quite the endeavour, which some have seen as problematic due to its high threat level. Its near-unique typing is also weirdly effective, giving it useful resistances to common attacking types like Bug, Dark, Steel and Electric, making Iron Hands an effective check to Pokemon like Tinkaton and Bisharp. This gives it a lot of opportunities to boost itself up and win, at least in theory.

Iron Hands does have a number of issues, though; its initial power with the standard Swords Dance sets, even with an Adamant nature and Punching Glove, is quite lacking - for example, it is incapable of 2HKOing max HP Tinkaton, a Pokemon that's not known for its physical defensive prowess. It doesn't get free setup on too many Pokemon; the likes of Talonflame, which is theoretically forced out by Iron Hands, can cripple it quite harshly. We've also seen a lot of adaptation to Iron Hands's presence, with Pokemon like Quagsire, Donphan, Scream Tail and Hippowdon seeing more usage than before. These Pokemon aren't niche, either; they check plenty more than just Iron Hands. Iron Hands also brings a lot of value to the tier in the form of a Bisharp check, a Tyranitar check, and a way to "statcheck" Pokemon like Gengar and Hawlucha that can often prove difficult for teams to handle.

A lot of the controversy around Iron Hands revolves around underexplored sets like Sub SD Tera Flying, which lures and beats Quagsire; while this is concerning, these sets will always have an opportunity cost (e.g. this set is easily revenge killed by Pawmot, Sandy Shocks, or opposing Iron Hands). We've also seen adaptations in the form of Tera types that beat Iron Hands, like Wo-Chien running Tera Ghost or Salamence running Tera Fairy. Do these sets push Iron Hands over the edge, or is it reasonable to keep it in check?

Post your thoughts below! However, keep in mind that - as is standard for the forum - one-liners and posts lacking substance are subject to deletion and, in extreme cases, may lead to infractions.

The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 78 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 78 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 82. As always, needing more than 50 games to 78 GXE is fine.

minimum games needed

GXE	minimum games
78	50
78.2	49
78.4	48
78.6	47
78.8	46
79	45
79.2	44
79.4	43
79.6	42
79.8	41
80	40
80.2	39
80.4	38
80.6	37
80.8	36
81	35
81.2	34
81.4	33
81.6	32
81.8	31
82	30

Other than that, the test will operate as always. There will be no suspect ladder. Instead, the standard UU ladder will remain open. Those who wish to participate in this suspect test will instead use a fresh, suspect-specific alt. All games must be played on the Pokemon Showdown! UU ladder on a fresh alt with the following format: "UU1XA (Nick)." For example, I might register the alt UU1XA Lily to ladder with. You must meet the listed format in order to qualify.

Participants will have until Sunday, February 19th at 7:00 PM GMT -5 to meet voting requirements and post in the Alt Identification Thread. PLEASE DO NOT POST YOUR CONFIRMED SUSPECT RESULTS HERE - there is a dedicated thread for identifying your suspect results. Happy laddering!

 

[Estarossa]

 

[Lily]

Participants will have until Sunday, July 31st at 7:00 PM GMT -4?

Is this accurate?

i always miss something

it's fixed, you have till feb 19th, ty!!

 

[iLiekMudkipz_]

i always miss something

it's fixed, you have till feb 19th, ty!!

iron hands will prolly have fallen to ru because home release by then

 

[StarFalcon555]

View attachment 490779

hi forum admins can you please add a horrified emote to the list of possible reactions????? that's the only emote that properly describes what this image makes me feel.
thanks in advance

 

[Leman123]

you guys move at a glacial pace, why didnt we just qb this

 

[Lily]

I'm glad you asked! We actually did vote on it as a council and the result was very firmly Do Not Ban. We just opted to run a suspect test instead because we wanted to give the community their chance to vote on a mon that we near-unanimously feel is not broken because there is clear outcry for it. I hope this helps explain the rationale :D

 

[Slip]

Since I was the very first one in the last np thread to post ban Iron Hands (which I was half joking on but the public seemed to agree lmao) I want to just put how I currently feel about hands even though I haven't played as much as I should have since hands dropped.

Iron Hands is like the best mix bag I have played against in a while. Its giant HP, Def, and Atk on paper make it look insane for the tier, but on the other hand I do feel like certain sets do have trouble. It's a slow mon that likes to set up in a meta with a lot of anti setup options or Pokemon that can give it trouble. Offensive options like Armarogue, Mimikyu and Sandy Shocks have become even better thanks to heavily threatening Iron Hands and other niche options are possible to run as well. Along with the points Lily has made about missing certain kills or having good defensive options to counteract it I can definitely see why this went to a suspect test.

On the other hand, a part of me really hates this mon lol. Pokemon that can wish to it or healing wish it back to full makes Iron Hands infuriating to play against (which I get doesn't make a singular mon in itself broken but I needed to get the steam out lol). Being able to bait in our grounds and take hits from bulkier Pokemon just to eventually drain punch all of its health back is also a pain. Its giant attack stat can make burns from Talonflame feel useless if you dont have something else to stop it from SDing as Talon only has a 50% chance to break a sub assuming there is no HP or Def investment. Tinkaton surviving a hit is only an issue if it is running encore, but most people have been switching to SD/Protect or other support moves in order to make Tinkaton help slower teammates gain an advantage or straight up sweep by itself. Play Rough on Tinkaton is also pretty unviable right now unless it is heavily needed for the team. Regardless even if it lives 1 I feel like the trade is rarely in Tinkatons favor unless knocking off leftovers or punching glove is a big enough deal for your team. Wo-Chien can stop drain punch heals, but also can't break sub and gets 3hko'd by ice punch or 2hko'd by the rare thunder punch. The only way it can possibly beat Hands is if it gets a leech seed on it, but you could also probably run the 96evs to outspeed chien without losing too much in the bulk department (untested). Salamence is pretty much garunteed a win in a vacuum, but it also misses 2HKO with outrage, DWB is a 4hko, and Hurricane can be heavily inconsistent. The only real option would be a pretty bulky DD set to be able to roost off Ice Punches, but that also gives Iron Hands turns to substitute or SD in order to threaten a trade even more. I also feel in a well played game, Mence would only be able to come in on an already substituted/SD'd Iron Hands. +1 threatens 2-3hko with Ice Punch depending on how much Attack investment is put in the set while Hurricane threatens 3hko at best (if full Sp. Atk). My overall point is these teras are not good hard checks to stop Iron Hands in my opinion and fall right into the trap Iron Hands wants to stat check and trade/claim.

Speaking of tera I'm also a bit concerned about the notes of developing defensive teras in order to deal with Iron Hands. I understand this is quite the big part of Gen 9, but I feel like a future problem we will run into is that X mon has to run Y tera becauze of Z mon. I think if it is one singular mon that is that much of a threat that you need the Tera insurance to help combat it, it might hurt meta development for certain Pokemon in the long run. Like i said this is probably just the very true reality of Gen 9 for certain Pokemon, but I do think it is something important to think about while we are all still getting used to tier changes and the new mechanic. But who knows maybe I'm just looking too deep into this.

Other than that the other 2 main sets I've seen of AV or 4 attacks punching glove can be pretty mid imo. I've tried banded which is fun, but running into Scream Tail, Talon, or any Special Attacker can be quite annoying so I don't recommend that much either. I definitely think the problem with Iron Hands will be the substitute SD set or any main SD set in general. SD + Tera + Team Support that can help keep Hands healthy I think will end up being too much for the meta if it stays around. For now I am leaning towards Ban, but as I play more to finish my reqs I'm sure my opinion will solidify more.

Thanks for reading and sorry if my ideas are all over the place. I'll try to respond to anyone in return who wants to talk about specific points (tho my tera point is a bit off topic for this suspect test and was more meant as a general idea I'm trying to settle on) I'll be happy to reply when I get the chance. I'd love to hear some people who don't want it banned to tell me why the SD set isn't broken enough, but as of now I think its just a tad bit too restricting for me to justifying keeping it around.

 

[pdt]

should ban it, too many dangerous sets to deal with, diff sd sets and band have all different counterplay even within the sd sets.

soz for short post

- resident uu try hard

 

[pokemonisfun]

I’d still have to build and play with it but two sets that I don’t see but feel certain are extremely good:

1. Sub SD Tera Blast (Ghost) Drain
2. SD 3 attacks with heavy slam/facade being an attack

These sets can really neutralize the Talon/Alt/Scream Tail if they switch in on the wrong move which fascinated me since people tend to spam screamy for hands

Regarding ghost sub
you destroy iron press slowbro
You stall out quagsire of recovery if it’s knocked or boots Since it can’t break sub in 1
You force scream tail to use all its wishes or just 2HKO depending on how much defense it has
Bramble goes bye bye after a SD
Hippo can’t do much to you and you beat it 1v1 let alone countering you
Tera fairy mence can’t 2HKO you and you 2hko it if it switches in on SD
If talon or alt switch in on sub they can’t even trade themselves for a burn since they don’t break sub with standard sets

Seriously - this set hasn’t been used much and I urge you to consider it when deciding how to vote

 

[Mossy Sandwich]

Alright I got my reqs, but wasn't using a team with Iron Hands nor did I fight many on the way, but in the past few days, I've played quite a few games against pokemonisfun with either one or both of us using Iron Hands and this mon is kinda crazy, banworthy for me. There are a couple of things I noticed with these games.

1. The longer Iron Hands survives into a game, the stronger it becomes.
Iron Hands honestly just needs one thing to go right for it. Whether it's getting a good predict and getting a Swords Dance off at a crucial moment, an opposing wall getting crippled or even just an Ice Punch freeze, the more opportunities it gets, the more dangerous it becomes. Iron Hands doesn't have that much trouble lasting long into the game if you don't overestimate its bulk too. Some stuff like Tinkaton and Bisharp give you pretty easy switch-ins and give you a chance to pressure your opponent. This actually brings me to my next point...

2. A lot of people use Iron Hands wrong because they overestimate its capabilities.
Everyone's talking about how bulky Iron Hands is and how it doesn't get 1HKO'd by much, but in practice, you really don't want it taking strong hits unless you're in prime position to sweep. As I said before, the longer Hands survives, the more chances it gets to gets kills or just outright win. You can't just let its health pool drain unless you know you can make a lot of progress doing so. In a similar idea, trying to get a Substitute up can often backfire when it may sometimes be better to just attack for chip or force your opponent to react without losing health through Swords Dance.

3. The variety from Iron Hands can also come from how you use it.
Iron Hands has a ton of set variety, though at this point, most people will agree Swords Dance is the only thing that seems especially broken. However, that one Swords Dance set has like 5 different Tera types, those being Fairy, Ghost, Flying, Grass and Fire and others like Ground or Water could potentially pop up depending on how the meta adapts. This isn't even really considering the moves it runs, its investment which can really go anywhere from 0 to 252 in almost all stats and other sets like AV which also run other Tera types like Steel. Obviously Iron Hands is super versatile and you have no idea what it'll do at preview. But even for individual sets, some players may have different ways of using them that can make it hard to adapt. For Swords Dance sets, some player may focus on getting the Substitute or Swords Dance up and you can try to Encore them with your Tinkaton or Grafaiai. However, some others may just want to attack straight up and other pokemon like Palossand or Hippowdon would be less risky to switch into. Even if a set looks similar, it's really hard to determine which EV spread one may be running because the options are so varied. Against certain Iron Hands, your Wo-Chien may be able to outspeed and annoy them, but others will outspeed you and the matchup will be tough. Your Palossand's Shadow Ball may be able to break the Substitute against certain spreads, but others would be guaranteed to survive. The amount of variety Iron Hands is hard to understate and this adds to how difficult it can be to deal with.

4. It's just kinda dumb.
From a teambuilding sense, Iron Hands can force pretty restrictive builds in order to cover it properly and even then, it can cheese its way past you or makes you too weak to other mons. If you're using a "normal" team that doesn't over-commit to countering Hands and only invests 1 Hard Counter and maybe 1 or 2 Soft Counters, it can still absolutely make its way past your team if your opponent doesn't over-commit or overestimate its abilities like a lot of player do. Its insane power over long games can sometimes lead to the game coming down to an Iron Hands vs Iron Hands 1v1. I haven't played much GSC, but it might be similar to Snorlax there; it'll eventually make a massive hole in the opposing team or just win as long as you don't let it get worn down or die for no reason.

My experience laddering has led me to feel like Iron Hands was often not that hard to counter or that it sometimes didn't make as much progress and you'd want it to, but I've realized lately that it's as dumb as it looks on paper, you just gotta use it right. Once you catch on to how to use it though, it's actually crazy how much games can revolve around it which I hope I don't have to say is clearly an issue. Anyway if you ask me, Iron Hands is broken.

 

[Turtlek]

Alright I got my reqs, but wasn't using a team with Iron Hands nor did I fight many on the way, but in the past few days, I've played quite a few games against pokemonisfun with either one or both of us using Iron Hands and this mon is kinda crazy, banworthy for me. There are a couple of things I noticed with these games.

1. The longer Iron Hands survives into a game, the stronger it becomes.
Iron Hands honestly just needs one thing to go right for it. Whether it's getting a good predict and getting a Swords Dance off at a crucial moment, an opposing wall getting crippled or even just an Ice Punch freeze, the more opportunities it gets, the more dangerous it becomes. Iron Hands doesn't have that much trouble lasting long into the game if you don't overestimate its bulk too. Some stuff like Tinkaton and Bisharp give you pretty easy switch-ins and give you a chance to pressure your opponent. This actually brings me to my next point...

2. A lot of people use Iron Hands wrong because they overestimate its capabilities.
Everyone's talking about how bulky Iron Hands is and how it doesn't get 1HKO'd by much, but in practice, you really don't want it taking strong hits unless you're in prime position to sweep. As I said before, the longer Hands survives, the more chances it gets to gets kills or just outright win. You can't just let its health pool drain unless you know you can make a lot of progress doing so. In a similar idea, trying to get a Substitute up can often backfire when it may sometimes be better to just attack for chip or force your opponent to react without losing health through Swords Dance.

3. The variety from Iron Hands can also come from how you use it.
Iron Hands has a ton of set variety, though at this point, most people will agree Swords Dance is the only thing that seems especially broken. However, that one Swords Dance set has like 5 different Tera types, those being Fairy, Ghost, Flying, Grass and Fire and others like Ground or Water could potentially pop up depending on how the meta adapts. This isn't even really considering the moves it runs, its investment which can really go anywhere from 0 to 252 in almost all stats and other sets like AV which also run other Tera types like Steel. Obviously Iron Hands is super versatile and you have no idea what it'll do at preview. But even for individual sets, some players may have different ways of using them that can make it hard to adapt. For Swords Dance sets, some player may focus on getting the Substitute or Swords Dance up and you can try to Encore them with your Tinkaton or Grafaiai. However, some others may just want to attack straight up and other pokemon like Palossand or Hippowdon would be less risky to switch into. Even if a set looks similar, it's really hard to determine which EV spread one may be running because the options are so varied. Against certain Iron Hands, your Wo-Chien may be able to outspeed and annoy them, but others will outspeed you and the matchup will be tough. Your Palossand's Shadow Ball may be able to break the Substitute against certain spreads, but others would be guaranteed to survive. The amount of variety Iron Hands is hard to understate and this adds to how difficult it can be to deal with.

4. It's just kinda dumb.
From a teambuilding sense, Iron Hands can force pretty restrictive builds in order to cover it properly and even then, it can cheese its way past you or makes you too weak to other mons. If you're using a "normal" team that doesn't over-commit to countering Hands and only invests 1 Hard Counter and maybe 1 or 2 Soft Counters, it can still absolutely make its way past your team if your opponent doesn't over-commit or overestimate its abilities like a lot of player do. Its insane power over long games can sometimes lead to the game coming down to an Iron Hands vs Iron Hands 1v1. I haven't played much GSC, but it might be similar to Snorlax there; it'll eventually make a massive hole in the opposing team or just win as long as you don't let it get worn down or die for no reason.

My experience laddering has led me to feel like Iron Hands was often not that hard to counter or that it sometimes didn't make as much progress and you'd want it to, but I've realized lately that it's as dumb as it looks on paper, you just gotta use it right. Once you catch on to how to use it though, it's actually crazy how much games can revolve around it which I hope I don't have to say is clearly an issue. Anyway if you ask me, Iron Hands is broken.

I agree something like this foesn’t belong to that tier, but if anyone thinks it’s balanced, I would like to hear you arguements.

Also, has anyone a post drops team they could give me?

 

[MasterPlayer]

Okay so I'd like to talk about a pokemon that I find to be surprisingly good since Torkoal is in the tier, and that is Jumpluff. Apparently it gained Talwind this generation, so I did the math, and with Sun to activate Chlorophyll, Tailwind, positive nature, 252 Spe and Choice SCarf this thing hits 2.1k Speed. Shame it doesn't have the movepool to make use of that Speed stat

 

[MasterPlayer]

Okay after looking at the movepool better, only the attacking one is bad. It still has Acrobatics, which can hit significantly harder with Tera Flying, as well as U-Turn for momemtum, but now that Loaded Dice is a thing, Bullet Seed might become a viable option, and maybe Trailblaze, but who needs Trailblaze when you can go beyond 1K speed with the Tailwind + Chlorophyll combo. The support movepool, on the other hand, is significantly better. Along with Tailwind, you have Encore to shut down setup sweepers, Strength Sap for survivability and crippling physical attackers, Stun Spore and Sleep Powder for status, and with that crazy speed Cotton Guard might actuallybe good for a guaranteed +2 Defense boost before taking a physical hit, unless you face a priority user. This thing might actually find this place on Sun teams to help the likes of Scovillain to move first

 

[scrimzn]

Can I ask why Hands has been suspected first even though to me it seems more people are complaining about Gengar atm? I'm honestly curious

 

[TH1N3 H4MM3R]

Iron Hands, a power so strong,
A force to be reckoned with all day long.
In the Underused Metagame, they hold a place,
A power that should not be banned or erased.

Banning Iron Hands, it makes no sense,
For it adds to the game's diversity and defense.
It gives trainers a different playstyle to try,
And adds excitement to each battle and the sky.

The strategy required to beat them is unique,
Bringing new challenges that each player should seek.
Their power may seem unfair to some,
But banning them would take away all the fun.

Iron Hands deserve a chance to shine,
In the Underused Metagame, they should be just fine.
So let us not ban them, let us embrace,
Their power and use it to enhance the game's pace.

So let Iron Hands stand tall and proud,
In the Underused Metagame, they should not be avowed.
For they bring excitement, challenge, and flair,
In the world of Pokémon, they should be given a fair share.

tl;dr: my balls itch

 

[Liz Angeles]

Honestly very conflicted on this suspect, I haven't played the meta too much outside of laddering for reqs but I feel its the most enjoyable version of sv uu so far and I lean towards do not ban.

When evaluating iron hands place in the meta I tend to separate it between sub sd sets and all other sets. I think if iron hands is banworthy its ultimately because sub sd sets are too strong, and I'm honestly not sure where i stand on this. On one hand the breaking potential of these sets is crazy, and theres basically a set to beat anything that would normally deal with it. On the other hand these sets are somewhat limited by this, because normally if you have a set to beat one check/counter youre stopped by several other checks/counters. This is an issue that plagues iron hands in general, but sub sd has a smaller pool of counterplay that makes this less challenging to overcome while using iron hands.

When it comes to the overall set diversity of iron hands, I think this is somewhat overstated as an issue when facing iron hands. While you can theoretically craft a set to do basically anything, in practice I didn't feel it was overly difficult to get a good feel for my opponents set and subsequently play around it. While using iron hands myself I felt people noticeably played poorly around it often, which I mention because it was pointed out above that several people overestimate iron hands' capabilities and use it wrong as a result.

I've also heard several complaints around the centralising effect of iron hands on the meta, and while I agree that it is centralising I think overall its a positive form on centralisation, and I don't think not using iron hands puts you at a massive disadvantage. I basically think iron hands is great, one of the top mons in the meta. It's immensely good at trading one for one, and if you're not careful or you run into the wrong set it can rip through your team. I just don't feel that it's overall presence is too much for the meta, and as it develops I think we'll see more consistent sets and counterplay pop up. I can definitely see why people feel it's too much, especially given the power of sub sd sets in particular, but personally I just feel it's not quite banworthy

 

[mark6870]

tl;dr: my balls itch

I can scratch them.


Honestly i think hands is just Melmetal-Lite; a strong fat thing who can demolish unprepared teams and sends shudders down my spine when i see it in team preview, but not without its flaws. And, unlike Mel, Iron Hands has some big ol flaws.

Hands' monumental bulk is offset somewhat by its mediocre defensive typing and low speed meaning it will take a ton of chip if you let it, so despite its massive bulk on paper, it's not a defensive paragon. Other than hard walling Bisharp, doesn't really check anything noteworthy.


Melmetal has an absolute nuke of a move in DIB, while Hands only has CC. and unless you're banded (which in my experience isnt that great of a set, you get worn down even more and you have little switchin opportunities as a midgame breaker due to your poor speed)
you're probably not going to use it. Instead, you're picking Drain Punch, which helps make your massive HP stat a bit of a curse instead of a blessing, as you will heal 30% after you kill a Gastrodon from full.

Another thing i don't see people mentioning is that you're starved of setup moves. Iron Hands gets access to Swords Dance, yes, but SD only boosting your attack and not your bulk makes it much less threatening to face. If it got, say, Bulk Up or Curse instead, i think it would be more threatening than it already is, because its bulk is improved making it even harder to kill. This post isn't about theorymonning, though, so i'll end that thought there.


Iron Hands is strong, no doubt, but it needs to be used wisely or else its' dead weight. Unlike the melty mercury man i compared it to, you cant just throw it in and expect it to mess up the entire team, its just going to take 70% from some random move and then be too weak to come in next turn.

I don't know if iron hands is broken or not. It's definitely up there as one of our better mons, and it is going to change the tier significantly if it stays, but i think it deserves some time to get situated.

Personally i think Gengar is worse and deserves to go before Hands does

 

[Sneakyplanner]

Personally i think Gengar is worse and deserves to go before Hands does

This is what I've learned from my suspect run. It's way harder to make a team that can handle one gnegar set, let alone all of them at once. Against gengar it always feels like you are one wrong prediction away from just losing the game, whether it be because you guessed it was specs instead of sub nasty plot or because you thought they would go for shadow ball instead of focus blast.

Iron hands is strong and I will be voting to ban it most likely, but Gengar is even stronger and harder to play around both in the builder and in-game.

 

[Negative Charge]

I've been swamped with IRL shit this past week so I don't think I can grind out reqs, but please ban this thing. If Tera didn't exist I think one could argue in good faith it's great but not broken but there's just no way this thing can stay with current mechanics.

 

[Crushy]

There's some interesting posts and points made regarding Iron Hands in this thread. I have tried being open-minded about Hands' presence in the tier, but it's influence is absolutely too much for the tier. The entire meta revolves around this mon alone. While some may say that centralization can be good in certain cases, the tier hasn't had a force as commanding as Iron Hands has been. In fact, I'm not certain even previous iterations of UU have had a presence such as this one, but if any players of older generations believe there is/has been feel free to mention so. I believe the closest comparisons we have for Hands are found in Baxcalibur and Melmetal, which is bizarre to think about in terms of being pokemon that can tank many hits while being able to dish out lethal damage as well. I'd even go as far as arguing that the UUBL mons so far were far easier to address than Iron Hands has been. In a reality where Hands is believed to be balanced, manageable, and not banned, then we should have no problem freeing Hydreigon and Baxcalibur; if we have no problem answering Hands then these should follow suit easily as well.

After getting reqs and having played the tier a decent amount in a hands meta, I for one will be voting to ban Iron Hands. This is a such a ridiculous mon to both face and use. Some could say tera pushes it to the extreme, but even without it would still be overbearing on the tier. Substitute with Swords Dance is by far the best and most busted set it has, though AV and Banded are still worth mentioning given that each set does have rather different counterplay. SD sets alone, while rather predictable, have a decent amount of variance that can still be made to fold any of it's checks, severely limiting its counterplay: tera blast ghost, heavy slam, ice punch, play rough, earthquake, etc. Some of the bulkier ground checks (Hippo/Gastro/Quag/Donphan/Palo) can annoy Hands, but are still at a disadvantage from preview since not only are they slower, but they don't switch in as well as you'd expect them too. The bulky flying types (Talon/Mence/Altaria) can all lose to sub, and for the flyings that rely on Hurricane to check it, they're left to rely on an inaccurate means to significantly deal it damage. The more physical flyings (Hawlu/Staraptor/Gyarados) can all lose 1v1 to it as well. All that's really left, outside of forced teras to deal with it, are the psychic types (Scream Tail/Armarouge/Gardevoir/Gallade/Slow twins) which admittedly do tend to be some of the better checks to it aside from the Slows, but none of them still don't switch in kindly to it either, especially when the possibility of tera ghost exists. Even without ghost, Scream can still take enough damage from Thunder Punch to where it's forced to heal or will get overwhelmed the following switch in. Offensively checking this mon seems like one of the more reliable means of answering Hands, but more offensive teams will still end up struggling to answer it.

As far as checks thru forced teras go, there's been a few recent adaptations in tera ghost mons such as Wo-Chien, Tyranitar, Hands itself, Scream Tail, ghost Slither Wing even, and i imagine other players have seen more things with random tera ghost. While admittedly you could say that you can answer Hands with tera, a lot of these mons would rather use a different tera and in the cases of Wo-Chien and Tyranitar, these are mons that would seemingly not want to choose a tera that woule inevitably make their ghost matchups much worse given that as your dark types of choice, abandoning your useful resist for the necessary Hands matchup and now you also don't resist dark so you don't act as a necessary knock absorber if needed. This just seems like having to go way out of your way to account for this one mon. There might be other examples of this too, and this also seems like an unhealthy element of a Hands metagame. While a mon that can potentially muscle thru it's checks isn't always a bad thing, very rarely do we see a mon who's checks can lose as hard as Hands' checks can. I even think of SS OU Spectrier in this sense. I've seen people talk about how Hands' ability to trade with some of the stronger titans of the tier (Gengar/Hawlu/Staraptor/etc.) can be looked at as a good thing, but the moment any set up comes into play, this mon isn't simply trading anymore, unless the opposing team is stacked with multiple checks to it, it might just win on the spot or at least take half the opposing squad down with it. Very rarely can a burned physical attacker still be able to do things in a battle, but Hands more often than not doesn't seem to mind getting burned and still manages to pose a threat. For what it's worth, I've also encountered some tera fire variants though these tend to be 3 atks variants.

While some can overestimate what it is capable of, in my experiences of using it, Hands has no issues being able to find an opportunity to SD in most matchups. When you consider that very few things can actually ohko it and it can tank most super-effective effect hits and even less from neutrals, it's not difficult for it to freely set up on most of the tier. At a certain point, it simply will not die because Drain Punch ends up dealing a ridiculous amount of damage even to resists so it's able to maintain longevity, something that Baxcalibur and even Melmetal cannot. As mentioned in an earlier post, these issues only become more prominent the longer Hands sticks around in a battle, which it can given through team support. Iron Hands is a mon that can be splashed onto any play style as well. Iron Hands stall has been a recent development in the meta, which is disgusting it sounds. Some could argue that Hands isn't necessary to add onto teams, but a player that doesn't use Hands is essentially playing with a handicap; almost no reason not to use it. All of these qualities make it such an unhealthy mon in the tier. Not quick banning this mon was a mistake and the tier is far better off without Iron Hands in it. I don't see a UU meta, even in the future, where Hands would be a positive addition to it, but who knows. What is certain is that Hands is currently too much for the tier and I fully believe that Hands should be banned. I encourage other reqs participants to consider this and the other lovely posts before it when considering what to vote.

Thanks for reading.

 

[TyCarter]

I'm just gonna offer my two cents on especially having played with it and against it during the past week and a half-ish it has been in the tier. Also because I have learned nothing about posting these at midnight.

In the builder, Iron Hands is one of those threats that you simply cannot ignore as it can cripple your team if it is not accounted for and as far as reliable answers go there is a few notable ones that come into mind such as although tera fly sub sd variants turn it into fodder that is helpless unless you are willing to ditch spikes/rocks for a second attacking move like ice beam or liquidation for example which isn't the worst thing ever but it does feel restricting in that sense and almost out of necessity if it is to remain a proper check. is, in theory, another reliable answer but as others have mentioned due to it's nice bulk and encore, however, tera ghost variants make this thing go flip burgers at Wendy's instead of being a real answer in the unfortunate event it runs into that.

As far as offensive answers goes, not a whole lot of things can actually threaten a KO from full besides stuff like Adamant LO/CB or specs (unless Hands runs AV) and Iron Hands can comfortably get two-for-ones against more offensive teams and requires tons of pivoting around. Iron Hands at least on paper sounds like what happens if Melmetal dropped into UU: a titan that would completely noobstomp the tier apart. In builder, it certainly feels like there is a need for specific threats slapped on to keep it at bay. (like the aforementioned Quagsire)

But how does it actually fare in actual games? Well, Iron Hands has a couple of notable sets like the aforementioned SD Sub sets whether its mental herb tera ghost or tera flying, Assault Vest to patch up its poor special defense, Choice Band if you want to try and smash fat teams apart with Close Combat. AV is great for offensive teams but does dogwater against fat/stall teams especially since quagsire hard-walls it, yeah sure tera grass is an option but that comes at a major expense of having an overall crappier typing and allowing Slither Wing and Raptor to farm it. While Sub-SD sets are a little easier to use since they can just attempt to avoid burns from say a Talonflame coming in or stuff toxic attempts from Quagsire and put them in a less-than-ideal spot. Sub-SD sets (ghost is the better one) can really force a lot of progress against fat teams especially if it can shrug off an encore attempt one time which is often all it needs to really get the ball rolling. CB has major issues of getting worn down too quickly over the course of a game even if it's hard to switch into and you really need to get your reads right. (Wild Charge is a sad excuse of a physical electric move btw)

Do I think it's banworthy? From a building standpoint, I am still leaning towards ban even if it isn't always as much of a menace in-game mostly because Iron Hands puts major constraints on building especially since you don't exactly have that many options to choose from to handle it properly and while it's fair to say it keeps a lot of the top offensive threats in UU in check, it's also fair to say that it warps teambuilding a fair bit given its limited pool of reliable checks despite Hands' shortcomings. It's certainly one of the more divisive mons in the tier. Of course, my opinion could change by the end of the week but that's currently my thoughts on Iron Hands.

 

[Moutemoute]

Official post to summarize my thoughts on Iron Hands. For those who wondering, I voted Quickban when the council had to vote on Iron Hands.

My main issue with Iron Hands is the fact that its bulk alongside Terastallization allows it to abuse effectively a lot of common staples in the tier. I really think Substitute variants are the most annoying to face since you basically can't play passive vs it without being punished really hard. It can set up a Substitute on so much Pokémon thanks to its bulk, it's frankly ridiculous. Iron Hands can also adapt its filler to its need when playing Sub+SD sets. Ice Punch or Thunder Punch are both equally great imo. pokemonisfun even mentionned Tera Blast + Tera Ghost as a great option to cover things like Scream Tail or Talonflame without risking a burn from Flame Body and while I wasn't sure this was a good idea (since you're basically forced to use Tera on it in order to be effective), I have to admit it's insanely nasty. I used a team with that set to get my reqs and many times the game ended with Iron Hands behind a Substitute at +2/4. And most of the time, it wasn't really the opponent's fault but the fact that Tera Ghost + Iron Hands's bulk was too much to deal with. I also think Sub variants of Iron Hands can adapt and are not forced to run Leftovers (even tho it's the best item for those sets imo). I've been people using effectively those variants alongside Punching Glove or Mental Herb to cancel Encore from Tinkaton, Scream Tail or Grafaiai.

I only talked about Sub+SD variants because I think those are the most dangerous sets of Iron Hands. However, it can also run other things such as SD +3 attacks, AV or some rare Choice Band (which is kinda meh imo because it's too slow). Overall I firmly believe Iron Hands puts too much pressure on the tier. I don't think it's as bad as things like Hydreigon or Baxcalibur but it's still too much imo. I've seen people complaining a lot of Gengar and I understand why although I'm not in the ban train yet for this one.

Also I would like to come back on something :

Instead, you're picking Drain Punch, which helps make your massive HP stat a bit of a curse instead of a blessing, as you will heal 30% after you kill a Gastrodon from full.

I don't really know from where you took that 30% but that's straight up fake. Even if you're running max HP Iron Hands (which is something you shouldn't ever do considering how high its HPs are already), you still recovering more than 41% (and up to 47.4% if 0 EVs in HPs).

If some people would like to try reqs but don't have a team for it, heres the one I used to do pretty much all my games for the suspect. This suspect is quite easy due to the requirement being lower than usual so feel free to at least try and give your feedbacks on Iron Hands.

team

Iron Hands @ Leftovers
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 16 Atk / 112 Def / 252 SpD / 128 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Substitute
- Drain Punch
- Tera Blast

Salamence @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 8 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Draco Meteor
- Air Slash
- Flamethrower

Brambleghast @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Wind Rider
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 248 HP / 224 Def / 36 Spe
Bold Nature
- Strength Sap
- Rapid Spin
- Giga Drain
- Shadow Ball

Gastrodon @ Leftovers
Ability: Storm Drain
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 248 HP / 132 Def / 120 SpD / 8 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Recover
- Earth Power
- Ice Beam

Tyranitar @ Leftovers
Ability: Sand Stream
Tera Type: Rock
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Rock Blast
- Crunch
- Earthquake

Talonflame @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Roost
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp
- Brave Bird

 

[Lily]

My personal thoughts on Iron Hands are:

Defensively checking Iron Hands is reasonable
I laddered with and against Iron Hands and I didn't at all feel like it was impossible to handle defensively. On my balance squad, the combination of Quagsire, my own Iron Hands, and Tera Ghost Wo-Chien was enough to handle every variant of Iron Hands that I ran into. On my more offensive team, I was able to switch into my Sandy Shocks - which was able to eat 2 Drain Punches very easily - and pressure it from there. Other mons like Brambleghast, Scream Tail, Hippowdon, Salamence, Palossand, Donphan and even Talonflame caused me pretty large issues w/ my own Iron Hands.

Offensively checking Iron Hands is a bit less reasonable
Iron Hands is a trade artist by nature and so it's kinda hard to actually handle it offensively with confidence. Pressuring it with the likes of Sandy Shocks, Toxtricity, Tatsugiri, Mimikyu, Noivern, Haxorus and Pawmot worked for me - and despite being pure offense, my Sticky Web team that I used for the latter half of my run had 0 issues with the Hands. But I do sympathise with what others are saying about how it's impossible to OHKO and how it's too good at beating through bulky cores for something that trades so well vs offense.

My main issue, and I've said this on Discord a fair few times, is that I believe people are building lazy teams and then that leads to frustration when they lose to it. Those Gastrodon/Tinkaton/Talonflame/Tsareena cores just don't cut it vs Iron Hands and that's a good thing. We shouldn't ban things that just happen to cleave through the metagame's current cookie cutter balance core. It has been a bit upsetting to see players not make any attempt to adapt to the new threat and instead rely on old cores that get shredded by it. Side note: those teams hard lose to Pawmot too, so good luck even if the Hands goes

I'm not saying that Iron Hands isn't banworthy, ftr. It very possibly is. I'm still not sure. I do think we should explore our options more, though; a Pokemon having a lot of variety isn't necessarily a bad thing, and there are a lot of checks we've still yet to experiment with. That said, it is true that there is nothing that actually hard counters Iron Hands. I can understand wanting to ban it for that reason. I dunno if we should be so quick to pull the trigger is all.

 

[Lyssa]

My personal thoughts on Iron Hands are:

Defensively checking Iron Hands is reasonable
I laddered with and against Iron Hands and I didn't at all feel like it was impossible to handle defensively. On my balance squad, the combination of Quagsire, my own Iron Hands, and Tera Ghost Wo-Chien was enough to handle every variant of Iron Hands that I ran into. On my more offensive team, I was able to switch into my Sandy Shocks - which was able to eat 2 Drain Punches very easily - and pressure it from there. Other mons like Brambleghast, Scream Tail, Hippowdon, Salamence, Palossand, Donphan and even Talonflame caused me pretty large issues w/ my own Iron Hands.

Offensively checking Iron Hands is a bit less reasonable
Iron Hands is a trade artist by nature and so it's kinda hard to actually handle it offensively with confidence. Pressuring it with the likes of Sandy Shocks, Toxtricity, Tatsugiri, Mimikyu, Noivern, Haxorus and Pawmot worked for me - and despite being pure offense, my Sticky Web team that I used for the latter half of my run had 0 issues with the Hands. But I do sympathise with what others are saying about how it's impossible to OHKO and how it's too good at beating through bulky cores for something that trades so well vs offense.

My main issue, and I've said this on Discord a fair few times, is that I believe people are building lazy teams and then that leads to frustration when they lose to it. Those Gastrodon/Tinkaton/Talonflame/Tsareena cores just don't cut it vs Iron Hands and that's a good thing. We shouldn't ban things that just happen to cleave through the metagame's current cookie cutter balance core. It has been a bit upsetting to see players not make any attempt to adapt to the new threat and instead rely on old cores that get shredded by it. Side note: those teams hard lose to Pawmot too, so good luck even if the Hands goes

I'm not saying that Iron Hands isn't banworthy, ftr. It very possibly is. I'm still not sure. I do think we should explore our options more, though; a Pokemon having a lot of variety isn't necessarily a bad thing, and there are a lot of checks we've still yet to experiment with. That said, it is true that there is nothing that actually hard counters Iron Hands. I can understand wanting to ban it for that reason. I dunno if we should be so quick to pull the trigger is all.

There are a couple of things i want to comment onto because this post just left me confused. I acknowledge that these are your personal thoughts but some of the things you said seem unfair/even contradictory at times.

Defensively checking Iron Hands is reasonable
I laddered with and against Iron Hands and I didn't at all feel like it was impossible to handle defensively. On my balance squad, the combination of Quagsire, my own Iron Hands, and Tera Ghost Wo-Chien was enough to handle every variant of Iron Hands that I ran into.

Yes, defensively checking Iron Hands is possible, but I wouldn't call it reasonable. The main 3 answers people talk about all the time are Quagsire, Scream tail and Tera Ghost Wo-Chien (2 of which you used on your balance squad), but every single one of these mons comes with restrictions and can be even be abused by the mon you're trying to beat. Going in-depth on this, Quagsire is the most splashable of the 3 as it's the one that comes with the least teambuilding restrictions, but still prefers to be on a Balance/Stall build and can be teched for with stuff such as Sub Tera Flying which We've seen used and would in most cases seal the game. A Scream Tail set that beats hands only really fits on fat balance or stall, and specifically requires spikes to guarantee being able to beat Hands or else it can lose in the long run. And as for Wo-Chien, it's easily the most scuffed of the 3. Specifically requires Leech Seed which you don't always want to run, requires Tera to function (which comes with HUGE drawbacks in this case from experience, as one of Iron Hands' best partners in Gengar has now a much easier time spamming it's preferred stab) and can be teched for. And as time goes by, these "teched" sets are becoming more and more common as Iron Hands still preserves it's nature of insane trade mon while also being capable of beating it's only "answers", and the drawbacks coming from dropping ice punch are negligible in most cases as the things you'd hit with that mon still find themselves on the losing end of a trade without it, with the exception of maybe salamence. I don't really have much to say about the next couple of lines/next paragraph other than Sandy Shocks being a good shout for a great offensive check, Spikes are one of the best tools we have for Iron Hands and being able to switch into it safely once (dpunch into ice punch 2hkos and drain twice from max ada has a high chance of 2hkoing too) and pressure it/pressure it into Teraing is great.

My main issue, and I've said this on Discord a fair few times, is that I believe people are building lazy teams and then that leads to frustration when they lose to it. Those Gastrodon/Tinkaton/Talonflame/Tsareena cores just don't cut it vs Iron Hands and that's a good thing. We shouldn't ban things that just happen to cleave through the metagame's current cookie cutter balance core. It has been a bit upsetting to see players not make any attempt to adapt to the new threat and instead rely on old cores that get shredded by it. Side note: those teams hard lose to Pawmot too, so good luck even if the Hands goes

This is what really confuses me though. You're mentioning a core that was spammed in beta and that basically disappeared with shifts (due to the need of adapting to iron hands and pawmot, since it's true that they just get owned) outside of the couple of tournaments players reusing the little teams they have and calling out people for being lazy in the builder when all I've seen for the past 2 weeks from everyone (even udongirl :( ), you included, is scream tail or quagsire balance, because that's the most reliable thing against Iron Hands and the mon barely leaves room to try other stuff. And idk this is the contraddictory part to me, you yourself admitted that offensively checking this thing is really hard/unrealiable and that's where usually people find windows to breathe and get creative, but here you're just forced in the 2/3 mons that semi-reliably answer it, that come with restrictions and often need to be paired together to actually answer all sets, although thankfully they sinergize well and are good mons by default. The reality is that this isn't lazy building, it's just a metagame overcentralized by an unhealthy presence.

Moving on from Lily's post I've already said most of what I wanted to say. Iron Hands reminds me of Espathra in the sense that you need specific counterplay to deal with it(although this time we have talonflame burns from time to time helping us!!) and the right set/right tera at the right time is just game over. I'm surprised I haven't seen it mentioned as much as I expected but this is another one of those mons that pushes tera over the limit. Statchecking the entire tier this hard allows it to run whatever it wants and to just deal with everything in it's way, if I were to vote on it again now I'd probably vote quickban but at the time there was no tournament data and people were still playing preshifts due to it dropping early in the week, and ladder is more often than not an unreliable source of information.