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np: SV UU Stage 1: Re-Entry (Beta starts now, bye Espathra!)
- Thread starter Lily
- Start date
- Status
There's some interesting posts regarding the state of the tier for what may come of certain mons or things depending on how the UU council decides to go about it. Before any decisions are made, I think it is important to adress some of the complexities that can come of tera in any given metagame.
*Tera*
Terastal undoubtedly adds layers in both teambuilding and counterplay in any given battle. As easily as you can argue something is broken with tera, you can just as easily argue that tera keeps them in check as well. Tera adds nuances to how one may think about counterplay and whether something is balanced or truly busted. The issue here is where should the line be drawn for when tera is or is not at fault and how should this be approached as well?
Is a mon too good depending on how well it can force opposing teras to be revealed as a means of checking it? Is a mon too good if you have to tech a specific tera for it at the cost of matching up worse against the rest of the tier? Is a mon too good if it can run multiple teras successfully? Is Tera Blast something to consider as well? Or perhaps something else not yet mentioned?
I feel these are some things that the council should discuss and agree upon before taking any further action on any mons or things in the tier. Despite how varied tera can be, it truly is not all that random at it's core. Some teras are simply better than others; some are worse. One can tech a very specific tera for a certain mon, despite how annoying or funny it could be, but the tera of choice can still be suboptimal in matching up against the rest of the tier. I think it's also worth mentioning that the first player to tera can end up disadvantaged since it is almost always better to be the second player to use their tera. Overall, as was decided by the OU suspect test, if tera is sticking around these are things that need to be discussed in a more focused manner before acting on anything.
As far as the discussion on Psychic Terrain goes, if something like weathers (rain in this case) can be voted on, terrains should be as well since they're basically the same. I believe that the argument that terrain pushes certain mons over the top is a fair one. However, it is also fair to say that some teams are well-equipped to handle the playstyle over others. The main mons that benefit from terrain are Hawlucha, Polteageist, and Armarouge, but unlike rain, the effects of psychic terrain can go beyond just typical swift swimmers; terrains can apply to any set up mons especially when you consider that each terrain also grants potential items to use as well. For a tier that is rather reliant on priority moves, psychic terrain invalidating that form of counterplay for many mons could be considered unhealthy. Psychic terrain, compared to rain, is more of an enabler rather than something that's a lot more linear to other weathers. With regards to both, where is the line drawn that would require action on the setters/abilities rather than the abusers of the field effects? The terrain certainly helps all 3 mentioned mons, but something like Armarouge certainly doesn't need it to function.
On the topic of Gengar, there's a lot of ban sentiment towards it, but I'm of the belief that it is not banworthy. I 100% believe that Gengar is more of a builder threat than it actually is in a given battle. Even with rather spammable STABs and decent coverage, it can be a very awkward mon to position and very rarely does it actually just win on preview; tends to require a bit of set up to actually be able to clean/sweep. Additionally, this tier is not frail. Nearly every mon in the tier can tank its hits from full and most mons have a way of hitting it strongly to where it can't always afford to just fire off attacks without falling short on it's damage output. Aside from being a rather bulky tier, UU has lots of priority and very good speed control options that can also limit Gengar's ability to do what it wants to. Don't get me wrong though, Gengar does have a good speed tier and is still easily one of the better mons in the tier, but a lot of its checks also tend to be pretty common on most team. Never once for as long as SV UU has existed, neither have i felt like i needed to go out of my way to check Gengar nor didn't have some sort of way to answer it in any battle so far even in using different playstyles and despite Gengar's versatility. I wholeheartedly believe that Gengar is balanced in this generation, but it is also understandable why many may dislike it and think it being watchlisted is fair.
That is all for now, and thanks for reading yall.
*Tera*
Terastal undoubtedly adds layers in both teambuilding and counterplay in any given battle. As easily as you can argue something is broken with tera, you can just as easily argue that tera keeps them in check as well. Tera adds nuances to how one may think about counterplay and whether something is balanced or truly busted. The issue here is where should the line be drawn for when tera is or is not at fault and how should this be approached as well?
Is a mon too good depending on how well it can force opposing teras to be revealed as a means of checking it? Is a mon too good if you have to tech a specific tera for it at the cost of matching up worse against the rest of the tier? Is a mon too good if it can run multiple teras successfully? Is Tera Blast something to consider as well? Or perhaps something else not yet mentioned?
I feel these are some things that the council should discuss and agree upon before taking any further action on any mons or things in the tier. Despite how varied tera can be, it truly is not all that random at it's core. Some teras are simply better than others; some are worse. One can tech a very specific tera for a certain mon, despite how annoying or funny it could be, but the tera of choice can still be suboptimal in matching up against the rest of the tier. I think it's also worth mentioning that the first player to tera can end up disadvantaged since it is almost always better to be the second player to use their tera. Overall, as was decided by the OU suspect test, if tera is sticking around these are things that need to be discussed in a more focused manner before acting on anything.
As far as the discussion on Psychic Terrain goes, if something like weathers (rain in this case) can be voted on, terrains should be as well since they're basically the same. I believe that the argument that terrain pushes certain mons over the top is a fair one. However, it is also fair to say that some teams are well-equipped to handle the playstyle over others. The main mons that benefit from terrain are Hawlucha, Polteageist, and Armarouge, but unlike rain, the effects of psychic terrain can go beyond just typical swift swimmers; terrains can apply to any set up mons especially when you consider that each terrain also grants potential items to use as well. For a tier that is rather reliant on priority moves, psychic terrain invalidating that form of counterplay for many mons could be considered unhealthy. Psychic terrain, compared to rain, is more of an enabler rather than something that's a lot more linear to other weathers. With regards to both, where is the line drawn that would require action on the setters/abilities rather than the abusers of the field effects? The terrain certainly helps all 3 mentioned mons, but something like Armarouge certainly doesn't need it to function.
On the topic of Gengar, there's a lot of ban sentiment towards it, but I'm of the belief that it is not banworthy. I 100% believe that Gengar is more of a builder threat than it actually is in a given battle. Even with rather spammable STABs and decent coverage, it can be a very awkward mon to position and very rarely does it actually just win on preview; tends to require a bit of set up to actually be able to clean/sweep. Additionally, this tier is not frail. Nearly every mon in the tier can tank its hits from full and most mons have a way of hitting it strongly to where it can't always afford to just fire off attacks without falling short on it's damage output. Aside from being a rather bulky tier, UU has lots of priority and very good speed control options that can also limit Gengar's ability to do what it wants to. Don't get me wrong though, Gengar does have a good speed tier and is still easily one of the better mons in the tier, but a lot of its checks also tend to be pretty common on most team. Never once for as long as SV UU has existed, neither have i felt like i needed to go out of my way to check Gengar nor didn't have some sort of way to answer it in any battle so far even in using different playstyles and despite Gengar's versatility. I wholeheartedly believe that Gengar is balanced in this generation, but it is also understandable why many may dislike it and think it being watchlisted is fair.
That is all for now, and thanks for reading yall.
I think the most straightforward ban for HO would be Indeedee and move forward from there. We could fiddle with Terrain Extender or the offensive mons but it seems like the root of the problem is Psychic Surge (imo). If you want to manually set Psychic Terrain, go for it.
I feel like banning or limiting Indeedee, Psychic Surge, or Terrain Extender is cool and all in theory, but I'm not sure about how well it functions in practice. Indeedee providing Psychic Terrain isn't in and of itself the problem, more so the fact that there are so many strong abusers. Polteageist does function best on PsyTerrain teams, but is still viable on Screens HO, and Hawlucha would honestly struggle to find a use case in the current meta without Psychic Seed Unburden. Indeedee is just kinda there? Like, aside from setting Psychic Terrain and throwing off the occasional Healing Wish, it doesn't do much. Losing Expanding Force was a huge blow to any offensive pressure it used to have back in Gen 8. I can agree, however, that most teams are frankly unequipped to deal with eight turns of terrain, not out of lack of competent build, but more so because asking that you survive eight turns of two premier offensive threats running around without the failsafe of priority to get them to fuck off is unreasonable at best. That is, of course, assuming that you kill Indeedee immediately, removing any chance for it to come back in and reset the terrain. I also feel like this problem is compounded by the fact that there is no other viable terrain setter in UU right now. Arboliva is passive, relies on getting hit, and has one of the worst defensive typings in the tier right now. Pincurchin sets terrain once, maybe gets up a spike, and dies. Not to mention, neither Grassy nor Electric Terrain provide the clear and distinct benefit that Psychic Terrain does. While my eyes are most certainly more on Polteageist, especially seeing as it still functions and still maintains its bullshit outside of Psychic Terrain, I wouldn't mind seeing something happen to Terrain Extender. Hawlucha, Indeedee, and Psychic Surge are fine though, leave those alone.
Also,
and 
are fine, but depending on what happens to Gengar and Polteageist I might end up changing my mind on Lucario.
I really think the Gengar panic is overdone. This mon is just not as troublesome in battle as people say. On paper it sure looks threatening and I can understand why it’s a bit of a builder restricter. But I haven’t really seen any battles where it just popped off and ran through everything. I’m not saying it’s not good, but quickbanning it seems like a huge overreaction. It rarely does work in battles as you’d expect because it’s fast but not quite fast enough (plenty of things are faster), it hits hard but not quite hard enough to KO most things, and it’s frail so it usually gets KOd right back. There is sufficient offensive and defensive counterplay - the existence of Ttar and Bisharp force it to use Focus Blast, while Gastrodon can wall most non specs sets (and there’s others that help limit it too.). Not to mention it’s dead in the water to most offensive teams.
I’d say a suspect would be more appropriate, but we have a bit of a new meta coming in a week anyways so maybe just wait and see what happens. If anyone has actual replays that show Gengar oppressively dominating a whole match in a tour level game then maybe it’s a different case, but as of right now there’s like 3 other things in the tier I consider way more problematic than Gengar (Lucario, Poltea for sure are more problematic. Floatzel close).
I’d say a suspect would be more appropriate, but we have a bit of a new meta coming in a week anyways so maybe just wait and see what happens. If anyone has actual replays that show Gengar oppressively dominating a whole match in a tour level game then maybe it’s a different case, but as of right now there’s like 3 other things in the tier I consider way more problematic than Gengar (Lucario, Poltea for sure are more problematic. Floatzel close).
yeah yeah two posts really close together i'm sorry i just have a lot to say about this meta anyways let's talk about gardevoir
Gardevoir @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Trace
Tera Type: Fairy/Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Psyshock
- Mystical Fire/Tera Blast
- Trick
This thing is pretty slept on, I think. Tink being everywhere is probably a very big factor in that, but still, Scarf Garde has a lot of neat qualities it brings to the table. Such as...
-----
It's our only offensive Fairy. Tink runs SD sometimes, and does solid damage with Gigaton Hammer, but rarely does it ever run Play Rough, and for good reason. However, Gardevoir can afford to slot in Fairy STAB to deal with problematic walls such as Wo-Chien, and some forms of Tyranitar. Tinkaton also has to be wary of switching in, taking about 36% from Mystical Fire and lacking any real recovery to remove chip outside of Leftovers.
252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 204-240 (59.8 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Tera Fairy Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 272-320 (79.7 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 204-240 (51.7 - 60.9%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 252 SpA Tera Fairy Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 272-320 (69 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Wo-Chien: 176-210 (47 - 56.1%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Tera Fairy Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Wo-Chien: 236-280 (63.1 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Gardevoir Mystical Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tinkaton: 154-182 (49.5 - 58.5%) -- 67.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Gardevoir Mystical Fire vs. 248 HP / 168+ SpD Tinkaton: 120-142 (32.1 - 38%) -- 0.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
------
It offers a way to deal with Rain. Trace with Scarf allows you to copy Swift Swim, making you faster than Rain's abusers and able to quickly turn the tides by firing back with Moonblast. This also comes without the detriment most Rain checks have - losing to Kilowattrel.
252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Barraskewda: 262-309 (99.2 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Tera Fairy Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Barraskewda: 350-412 (132.5 - 156%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Floatzel: 261-307 (83.9 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Tera Fairy Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Floatzel: 348-410 (111.8 - 131.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Drednaw: 205-243 (63.8 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Tera Fairy Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Drednaw: 274-324 (85.3 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kilowattrel: 228-268 (81.1 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Tera Fairy Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kilowattrel: 304-358 (108.1 - 127.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Fairy Gardevoir in Rain: 220-261 (79.4 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Floatzel Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Fairy Gardevoir in Rain: 198-234 (71.4 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-----
It offers counterplay to Gengar, assuming it isn't Scarfed. This needs no explanation as to why it's a boon. Being able to reliably revenge kill what is arguably the best mon in the tier is good, point blank period.
252 SpA Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 386-456 (147.8 - 174.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO (were you surprised?)
-----
It checks a variety of common offensive threats. Specs Noivern, two of three Gallade variants, Iron Jugulis, Salamence, Haxorus - all can be dropped with STAB Moonblast. Some will require hazards or prior chip, but obtaining either of these isn't difficult with the lack of good hazard removal in UU.
252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Noivern: 362-428 (116.3 - 137.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Normal Noivern: 181-214 (58.1 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Tera Fairy Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Normal Noivern: 242-286 (77.8 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gallade: 270-318 (97.4 - 114.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gallade: 270-318 (97.4 - 114.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
(Clicking Tera will secure the kill without hazards, but base typing means you don't die. Even after Tera Fairy, Psycho Cut is still a roll!)
252 Atk Sharpness Gallade Psycho Cut vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Fairy Gardevoir: 237-280 (85.5 - 101%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
(Not in their favor, either.)
252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 366-432 (93.1 - 109.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Tera Fairy Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 488-576 (124.1 - 146.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Haxorus: 408-480 (139.2 - 163.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-----
That's long enough, I believe I've made my point clear. Save an endangered species, give Gardevoir a shot.
Gardevoir @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Trace
Tera Type: Fairy/Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moonblast
- Psyshock
- Mystical Fire/Tera Blast
- Trick
This thing is pretty slept on, I think. Tink being everywhere is probably a very big factor in that, but still, Scarf Garde has a lot of neat qualities it brings to the table. Such as...
-----
It's our only offensive Fairy. Tink runs SD sometimes, and does solid damage with Gigaton Hammer, but rarely does it ever run Play Rough, and for good reason. However, Gardevoir can afford to slot in Fairy STAB to deal with problematic walls such as Wo-Chien, and some forms of Tyranitar. Tinkaton also has to be wary of switching in, taking about 36% from Mystical Fire and lacking any real recovery to remove chip outside of Leftovers.
252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 204-240 (59.8 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Tera Fairy Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 272-320 (79.7 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 204-240 (51.7 - 60.9%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery 252 SpA Tera Fairy Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 272-320 (69 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Wo-Chien: 176-210 (47 - 56.1%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Tera Fairy Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Wo-Chien: 236-280 (63.1 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Gardevoir Mystical Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tinkaton: 154-182 (49.5 - 58.5%) -- 67.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Gardevoir Mystical Fire vs. 248 HP / 168+ SpD Tinkaton: 120-142 (32.1 - 38%) -- 0.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
------
It offers a way to deal with Rain. Trace with Scarf allows you to copy Swift Swim, making you faster than Rain's abusers and able to quickly turn the tides by firing back with Moonblast. This also comes without the detriment most Rain checks have - losing to Kilowattrel.
252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Barraskewda: 262-309 (99.2 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Tera Fairy Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Barraskewda: 350-412 (132.5 - 156%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Floatzel: 261-307 (83.9 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Tera Fairy Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Floatzel: 348-410 (111.8 - 131.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Drednaw: 205-243 (63.8 - 75.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Tera Fairy Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Drednaw: 274-324 (85.3 - 100.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kilowattrel: 228-268 (81.1 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Tera Fairy Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kilowattrel: 304-358 (108.1 - 127.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Barraskewda Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Fairy Gardevoir in Rain: 220-261 (79.4 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Floatzel Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Fairy Gardevoir in Rain: 198-234 (71.4 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-----
It offers counterplay to Gengar, assuming it isn't Scarfed. This needs no explanation as to why it's a boon. Being able to reliably revenge kill what is arguably the best mon in the tier is good, point blank period.
252 SpA Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 386-456 (147.8 - 174.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO (were you surprised?)
-----
It checks a variety of common offensive threats. Specs Noivern, two of three Gallade variants, Iron Jugulis, Salamence, Haxorus - all can be dropped with STAB Moonblast. Some will require hazards or prior chip, but obtaining either of these isn't difficult with the lack of good hazard removal in UU.
252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Noivern: 362-428 (116.3 - 137.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Normal Noivern: 181-214 (58.1 - 68.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Tera Fairy Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Normal Noivern: 242-286 (77.8 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gallade: 270-318 (97.4 - 114.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gallade: 270-318 (97.4 - 114.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
(Clicking Tera will secure the kill without hazards, but base typing means you don't die. Even after Tera Fairy, Psycho Cut is still a roll!)
252 Atk Sharpness Gallade Psycho Cut vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Fairy Gardevoir: 237-280 (85.5 - 101%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
(Not in their favor, either.)
252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 366-432 (93.1 - 109.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Tera Fairy Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Salamence: 488-576 (124.1 - 146.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Haxorus: 408-480 (139.2 - 163.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-----
That's long enough, I believe I've made my point clear. Save an endangered species, give Gardevoir a shot.
I haven't done a post talking about things I'm enjoying in the tier since a while so here we are.
I have seen a lot of people claiming Grafaiai is not that great anymore and I can't disagree more with that take. I firmly believe it's still a top 10 UU Pokémon (yeah it's a hot take). I think it brings a ton of value to teams thanks to either Prankster or Poison Touch. It's still one of the best check to setup sweeper thanks to Prankster Encore and it's not that hard to slap in teams which are using Slowking (thanks to Chilly Reception) as it can safely Encore after a setup move while bringing a decent answer to Gengar too. I've been messing with Poison Touch alongside Encore + 3 attacks (U-turn / Knock Off / Low Kick) and it works really well. It's a great pivot and spreading Poison is trully valuable in the long run, especially in the current state of SV metagames where Heal Bell / Aromatherapy are not a thing anymore. I also used SD + Psychic Seed alongside Tera Blast + Tera Ground and it's a fun Pokémon to abuse (because Poison/Dark/Ground coverage hits a shit ton of Pokémon in the tier). You can even manage to dump some EVs in HP on the SD Unburden sets to handle specific things (like 76 EVs in HP to always handle a CC from Adamant Hawlucha from full). Overall this Pokémon feels so safe to run in many of my teams.
Maushold is a massive threat imo. If you're not running a Rocky Helmet user, you will definitively struggle to handle it defensively. I really think Tera Fire is the most valuable Tera for Maushold atm even tho Tera Ghost is pretty valuable too in order to be immune to Extreme Speed (and overall Fighting-type moves). However, being able to hit Talonflame or to setup in front of it without taking the risk to being burned is so great. Tera Fire needs more support than Tera Ghost because it leads Maushold to take 25% on Stealth Rock (which sucks for a Pokémon which can't really run Heavy-Duty Boots). But yeah Maushold is a big threat and yet another reason to run at least one Tera Ghost Pokémon in SV UU teams.
It's a surprise to no one, hazards control sucks in SV UU. So here I am with a new random Rapid Spin user : Coalossal ! Let's be honest, it's not a revolution neither the best option we have but it has some tools over other users. First of all it can set entry hazards while being able to put some pressure on Talonflame. It can also punish U-turn users and Maushold thanks to Flame Body (and the fact it can hit it even after it uses Tera Fire). However, its typing is really awful vs Quagsire / Gastrodon (and overall vs a ton of threats..).. so yeah it can work but it needs a ton of support to shine (especially if you're running HDB, you're kinda forced to use it alongside a Wish user).
Grafaiai @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Encore
- Parting Shot
- Gunk Shot / Toxic
- Knock Off
Grafaiai @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Poison Touch
Tera Type: Dark / Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Encore
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Low Kick
Grafaiai @ Psychic Seed
Ability: Unburden
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 76 HP / 252 Atk / 180 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Gunk Shot
- Knock Off
- Tera Blast
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Encore
- Parting Shot
- Gunk Shot / Toxic
- Knock Off
Grafaiai @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Poison Touch
Tera Type: Dark / Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Encore
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Low Kick
Grafaiai @ Psychic Seed
Ability: Unburden
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 76 HP / 252 Atk / 180 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Gunk Shot
- Knock Off
- Tera Blast
Maushold @ Wide Lens
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Fire / Ghost / Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Tidy Up
- Protect
- Bite / Shadow Claw
- Population Bomb
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Fire / Ghost / Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Tidy Up
- Protect
- Bite / Shadow Claw
- Population Bomb
Coalossal @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Leftovers
Ability: Flame Body
Tera Type: Steel / Fairy / Ghost / Water
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
- Spikes / Stealth Rock
- Rapid Spin
- Power Gem / Stealth Rock
- Overheat
Ability: Flame Body
Tera Type: Steel / Fairy / Ghost / Water
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
- Spikes / Stealth Rock
- Rapid Spin
- Power Gem / Stealth Rock
- Overheat
Last edited:
just a quick update post:
- we've talked a fair bit about psychic terrain (and polteageist) in council chat and don't really feel as though it warrants any action right now. psychic terrain has quite a few issues;
- first is the fact that the setter, indeedee (especially male), is a pretty useless pokemon.
- second is that we honestly do feel that poltea is the only real threat on psyterrain. armarouge took an absolutely massive hit w/ ttar's drop and dominance bc realistically you can't get away with the endure sets anymore thanks to sand (unless tera ground or something??) and you also can't run energy ball for slowking very comfortably bc focus blast is necessary to do actual damage to the kaiju, so you're strapped for moves even more than you already were (endure, expanding force, armour cannon, energy ball, focus blast, calm mind, tera blast). hawlucha just straight up sucks.
- there are some serious drawbacks to psyterrain. it's a very all-or-nothing playstyle which makes it v weak to defensive tera - for example, tyranitar terastalising into a pure rock type means it can eat a hit from even tera fight teapot and just drop it in return, which can make it extremely easy to beat the rest of the terrain squad. it's also very much owned by teams that don't give it setup opportunities (this is a lot of them - the only mon in the viability list's great tier that teapot can set up on w/o scouting the set is sandy shocks or noiv/raptor locked into a normal move, which they should obviously never do vs psyterrain)
- on teapot specifically, we do feel there are enough checks. grafaiai dominates it outside of terrain, floatzel dumps on it in rain, and general purpose tinkaton can check it for every single style. it's true that a full hp teapot in psyterrain at +2 has no true, guaranteed counterplay, but the reality of the situation is that you just need to hit it - if you're letting it get a free setup turn in psyterrain then you're going to lose and you probably deserve it
- we're keeping an eye on things but as of rn we pretty much unanimously feel this isn't a broken element within the tier
- as for other things considered potentially problematic, we're looking at gengar and rain mostly.
- most of the council is in favour of a gengar ban, i think - i'm personally opposed and don't think the mon is all that, but others can share their thoughts if they haven't already. we will likely wait until after shifts regardless, i think.
- rain is getting harder and harder to answer as it continues to develop and start teching for answers like gastrodon. only a couple council members feel it's overbearing rn but it's not hard to see why it's becoming dominant
Perhaps this is a dumb question, but why is Protect useful on Moushold? I've been seeing/defaulting to Bullet Seed in that slot which seemed useful enough for Tyranitar and bulky grounds or waters.Maushold @ Wide Lens
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Fire / Ghost / Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Tidy Up
- Protect
- Bite / Shadow Claw
- Population Bomb
Maushold is a massive threat imo. If you're not running a Rocky Helmet user, you will definitively struggle to handle it defensively. I really think Tera Fire is the most valuable Tera for Maushold atm even tho Tera Ghost is pretty valuable too in order to be immune to Extreme Speed (and overall Fighting-type moves). However, being able to hit Talonflame or to setup in front of it without taking the risk to being burned is so great. Tera Fire needs more support than Tera Ghost because it leads Maushold to take 25% on Stealth Rock (which sucks for a Pokémon which can't really run Heavy-Duty Boots). But yeah Maushold is a big threat and yet another reason to run at least one Tera Ghost Pokémon in SV UU teams.
It blocks first impression from Lokix, Slither Wing and sometimes Haxorus. Most of the time, avoiding the most common form of priority in the tier is more useful than doing extra damage to mons that you already nuke with Population Bomb well enough.
I would say that's up to preferences. I tend to run Brave Bird but Flare Blitz is as good. I would say Brave Bird tends to hit more things on the neutral side while Flare Blitz is valuable to punish Tinkaton and other Steel-types. Overall, it kinda depends of the team you're making.
To add onto the above, you definitely always want to be Brave Bird on a Taunt set, part of the appeal is the ability to actually put meaningful damage on Quag/Gastro/Slowking while having the ability to make it stick with Taunt (or at least stop a chilling reception and force a hard switch into talon for slowking), and even Tera Ghost and then actually beat the latter two too, while Flare Blitz is gonna do such meaningless damage even if you Taunt and Tera that you'll struggle to do anything to offset leftovers against them etc.
In general I also prefer Brave Bird as a default cause the damage on the Water's tends to be not insignificant and forces more passive turns over time, the neutral side it tends to hit things more on as Moute says in general. There are smaller benefits like the ability to guarantee a kill on all Slither Wing sets (while flare blitz needs chip against offensive and a lot of chip against bulkier ones) but these are pretty niche scenarios in practice usually, but somehting you might appreciate from time to time.
But yea for the defog / pivot sets it often comes down to what your team needs more then anything, sometimes being able to hit Tinkaton with Flare Blitz is kinda more important.
In general I also prefer Brave Bird as a default cause the damage on the Water's tends to be not insignificant and forces more passive turns over time, the neutral side it tends to hit things more on as Moute says in general. There are smaller benefits like the ability to guarantee a kill on all Slither Wing sets (while flare blitz needs chip against offensive and a lot of chip against bulkier ones) but these are pretty niche scenarios in practice usually, but somehting you might appreciate from time to time.
But yea for the defog / pivot sets it often comes down to what your team needs more then anything, sometimes being able to hit Tinkaton with Flare Blitz is kinda more important.
hiya, i have a few questions regarding this, specifically the psyterrain part because some of it feels different from my own experiences
it's definitely a mon abused by most defensive cores however it doesn't exactly need to force those things out. access to hwish already gives it some utility and being somewhat of a gengar answer can be helpful when polteageist is outsped by scarf variants even at +2 with a timid nature
rouge is bad i agree however this is puzzling me. lucha's stab combo is nigh unresisted, so often your best answer to it is to run physdef non resists, who a: usually aren't able to deal enough damage to it (example: slowking can only ohko +1 spdef lucha with psychic terrain-boosted psychic which is already giving up surf (and this is assuming you're not behind screens)) or b: exploitable by taunt (such as hippo or quag who can only stop you with status moves or weaker alternatives that give up far better options)
wasn't that the same ttar who was supposed to answer your armarouge? a +1 energy ball + tera fighting tera blast can overwhelm ttar. not only is it prone to getting overwhelmed, but only spdef variants can truly take it on - even max hp no spdef variants are ohkod after rocks. and while polteageist is frail physically, an uninvested/barely invested ttar only does around 67 on a high roll if it's terad and is eved specifically to live a +2 timid tera blast AND dumps the rest into attack, and if it's white herb, does even less if it's behind screens AND loses the moment stone edge misses. AND even IF poltea is low enough from previous attacks to be in range, indeedee can hwish and bring it back to full.
psyterrain teams also like to pack either espeon or klefki for screens, which help lots with finding setup opportunities for example, with screens up, scarf raptor can't ohko polteageist. screens are also naturally helpful for allowing indeedee to get in more easily, letting lucha handle hits like fsight from slowking, and letting polteageist run white herb over focus sash.
grafaiai who totally dominates polteageist watching it's teammates get destroyed by it (it will totally dominate it once the terrain ends in 3 turns) floatzel only rly hurts non sash variants and whether it's sash or not, lucha has access to stone edge and destroys non barra rain if the rain mu is genuinely that scary on your end, and ho has it's options for rain cplay (hax, mence, ttar, gyara, cloy can all either take rain attacks and retaliate or reset the weather in the case of ttar.) tink can't switch in to polteageist as it either goes to it's sash or eats it's hits behind screens (or not, hammer isn't even a guaranteed ohko without hazards assuming it has 84 attack evs.)
- While Indeedee does have some value thanks to Healing Wish (and to some extent Encore) it does get abused by common defensive backbones which are quite common in the tier. If it doesn't force defensive Pokémon to switch-out, they're getting free hits either on Indeedee or its mates which sucks in every way for HOs. Also it's a pretty shaky answer to Gengar. Outside of being immune to Shadow Ball, it's getting 2HKOed by both Sludge Bomb and Focus Blast.
- Rouge is better than Hawlucha. I already highlighted in a previous post why Hawlucha is much more tough to play than it looks like. People actually don't need to run specific defensive checks to deal with Hawlucha, there is multiple bulky Pokémon in the tier which can handle it (see the post I mentionned just above where during 2 differents matchs, Hawlucha basically lost the 1v1 vs Tera Bisharp kekw). Slowking is able to nuke Hawlucha even at +1 in SpD thanks to Future Sight. You're mentionning Screens, that's straight up bad alongside Psychic Terrain as you would spend too much turns to setup both screens and Psychic Terrain.
- Once again, you're mentionning Screens, that's a bad argument in a Psychic Terrain HO discussion. You're also mentionning that Tyranitar can't handle both Armarouge and Polteageist which is true but it for sure prevents them to setup for free which means they'll not be able to sweep and will be handle by Tyranitar's teammates.
- Third time's isn't a charm, Screens + Psychic Terrain sucks. You're wasting too much time and momentum.
- Hawlucha does have Stone Edge in its moveset, that's true ; but not running Taunt means it does not beat in the 1v1 Quagsire which is really wack, you mention it earlier in your post so talking about a non-used move isn't relevant. You're mentionning Focus Sash a lot but Psychic Terrain HO struggles to keep Stealth Rock out of the field mostly because they're not using any remover and the only good user of Magic Bounce (Espeon lol) can't do shit vs Tinkaton which is one of the best and used Pokémon in the tier (Indeedee doesn't beat it too even with as much coverage as possible). Overall you'll have most of the time some kind of entry hazards on your side of the field.
being unresisted doesnt matter much when you're running off base 92 attack in a bulky tier :< especially since lucha is pretty much forced into jolly w/ float around. that also means it can run bulk invest like it wants to. the result is that multiple generally bulky pokemon (slowking, scream tail, salamence, pelipper, even niche mons like altaria and drifblim) can handle a +2 hawlucha fairly well. as can priority (extreme speed from lucario, aqua jet from float/skewda, and even FI from lokix & sucker from bisharp if you get it low enough - not a challenge seeing as it can't fit roost or bulk invest). not to mention stuff like pompom and mimikyu that guarantee you can deny a hawlucha sweep - dropping taunt makes you worthless vs the most common mons in the tier after all, which you even mention here
if you're attempting to use your ttar to answer *both* then yeah you're gonna lose. relying on one mon to solo a playstyle is a good recipe for bad teams, you just can't do that and expect to win. you need backup checks to things. i'm not going into the specific calcs bc it's just not representative of real games. all the replays shown off so far have been questionable as well, to say the least; i mean shit they featured more pompom action than teapot, which looked thoroughly mediocre in all of the games except the one where it won against stall, which it needed luck to do anyway. also - and i mean this respectfully and not as an attempt to flame - if youre giving a teapot *two* free setup turns then you definitely deserve to lose. just eq it btw no need to go for edge hits. can also run something like heavy slam or dragon tail if you really hate tea.
the point here is that yes, all these things can happen in theory, but they aren't happening in real games. i've laddered all day trying to find psyterrain teams to prove this point, too, and i've not even come across any, which goes to show its usage isn't even very high to begin with.
you're dedicating three separate mons at this point (screener, hazard setter, indeedee) -just- to make something work. that isn't broken. that's all or nothing cheese and it either works or it doesn't.
break the sash with hazards. the best hazard setter that also has mold breaker happens to fit very well on rain. aqua jet also ohkos teapot and ohkos hawlucha after rocks fairly often, im sure you can manage to get like 2% chip on it with rain lol.
ho has these. psychic terrain doesn't because it's gotta fit like three separate supporters.
hit the teapot!! I can't stress this enough!! you shouldn't EVER be letting it set up entirely for free unless you have a backup plan, which is why calcs from full HP are pretty much entirely irrelevant.
I don't really know what more I can say. psychic terrain has just been an on-paper thing for me, and i've yet to see super convincing games of it in practice. if those could be provided i'd maybe be more willing to consider but most of these calcs just don't mean much w/o evidence of the strat in practice... especially against players who know the mechanics and don't sucker punch a froslass 5 times in a row :p
Another believer! Although I do feel Will-O is worth a mention as a slot here, manual burn as a failsafe against a cheeky Maushold or a Mence/Hax/Gyara that thinks it's gonna get a free turn off of you really really comes in handy. I do need to try it with a Wish mon though, maybe throw it on a Scream Tail + Orthworm core or something? Also, it's besties with Wo-Chien, scaring Slither Wing, Lokix, and Staraptor is pretty neat.It's a surprise to no one, hazards control sucks in SV UU. So here I am with a new random Rapid Spin user : Coalossal ! Let's be honest, it's not a revolution neither the best option we have but it has some tools over other users. First of all it can set entry hazards while being able to put some pressure on Talonflame. It can also punish U-turn users and Maushold thanks to Flame Body (and the fact it can hit it even after it uses Tera Fire). However, its typing is really awful vs Quagsire / Gastrodon (and overall vs a ton of threats..).. so yeah it can work but it needs a ton of support to shine (especially if you're running HDB, you're kinda forced to use it alongside a Wish user).Coalossal @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Leftovers
Ability: Flame Body
Tera Type: Steel / Fairy / Ghost / Water
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
- Spikes / Stealth Rock
- Rapid Spin
- Power Gem / Stealth Rock
- Overheat
Also, on the topic of non-Talon utility fires, Salazzle is pretty cool too. Great speed tier (faster than Maushold, Gengar, Jugulis, Staraptor, Sandy, and Grafaiai!) and Corrosion for unblockable Toxic is amazing. Also gets Nasty Plot, Encore, Knock Off, and coveted special Fire STAB. Very good at forcing progress against bulkier teams and offering an option for revenge killing. Also offers no competition for your Tera slot, since no typing offers it anything better than what Poison/Fire can do for it, not to mention it's just... too frail to take advantage of any defensive change. Still good though! Give it a shot.
quickly hopping in on the psyterrain discussion with a more general note: the abusers on styles like psyterrain (and also rain, trick room, even HO to some extent) will always seem "broken" in a vacuum because they literally have to be in order for you to win games. when you're devoting one or multiple spots to setting up conditions that enable the rest of your team, those members inherently have to outperform a traditional offensive mon in order to even hit break even of being worth it, let alone being broken or making progress.
as a tiering body or council, it's never a compelling argument to see "polteageist is great in psyterrain because it can't be hit by priority" or "hawlucha with unburden outspeeds the whole tier" because those are the reasons those mons are run in the first place. those planned game interactions and successful sweeps aren't signs of a broken playstyle, they're examples of a team design successfully being played out. It's only worth considering restricting or banning these things when they are overbearing, winning disproportionately, extremely overrepresented, or categorically better than other styles -- psyterrain is none of those things.
as a tiering body or council, it's never a compelling argument to see "polteageist is great in psyterrain because it can't be hit by priority" or "hawlucha with unburden outspeeds the whole tier" because those are the reasons those mons are run in the first place. those planned game interactions and successful sweeps aren't signs of a broken playstyle, they're examples of a team design successfully being played out. It's only worth considering restricting or banning these things when they are overbearing, winning disproportionately, extremely overrepresented, or categorically better than other styles -- psyterrain is none of those things.
Glaceon @ Leftovers
Ability: Ice Body
Tera Type: Fighting/Fire/Ground
EVs: 248 HP / 116 SpD / 144 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Substitute
- Freeze-Dry
- Tera Blast
Desperate times mean desperate measures! I've been trying out this set with Chilly Reception Slowking to pretty alright results so far. 144 Timid allows you to outspeed 252 Adamant Tyranitar and fire off a Tera Blast. Freeze-Dry still covers most common Tera typings so you should be fine unless you encounter the odd Tera Fairy. You can also try out Fire or Ground to hit Tinkaton at the expense of not being able to break through TTar, but I don't really believe it's worth it when it's probably easier to just run teammates such as Gengar, Magnezone, or a strong physical breaker like Haxorus that can deal with Tink for you. Snow with Ice Body + Leftovers offers some surprising bulk as well, and Freeze-Dry threatens out Quagsire and Gastrodon. I think it's worth a try!
I think the reason why Polteageist looks threatening on Psychic Terrain is not because of the Terrain blocking priority, but rather the raw and immediate power provided by the combination of Shell Smash and Stored Power, which in conjunction of Psychic Terrain makes it almost unwallable. Especially when you pair it with Hawlucha to handle the Dark-Types that could otherwise nullify Polteageist. On a similar note, has anyone tried Spiritomb yet?
My question is, what does Spiritomb offer, aside from checking both Polteageist and Hawlucha, something that a well built team should be able to do? Is there anything that Spiritomb offers that another, better option in the tier does not? If it does, I'm more than happy to hear it and try it out! I'm more so just curious.
Slither Wing @ Leftovers
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 16 Atk / 88 SpD / 152 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bulk Up
- Leech Life
- Close Combat
- Flame Charge
It's been around a week since I'm testing out this set of Slither Wing and I have to admit it's really threatening. I didn't made it, got swept by it on the ladder and decided to make my own version. This set is able to straight up sweep whole team which are only relying on Talonflame in order to keep in check Slither Wing. It will struggle vs Quagsire but also some rare defensive Tera users such as Tera Ghost Alomomola (which is able to PP stall it) but otherwise it can really break threw a ton of things. The purpose is quite simple, you set a bulk up on something which can't do a lot to Slither Wing or use a switch on Talonflame in order to set up one Bulk Up. Tera Fire allows Slither Wing to not fear Will-O-Wisp or a burn of Flame Body, I trully think Tera Fire is really valuable for a lot of physical setup sweepers. EVs spread is straightforward : enough speed to outspeed Maushold after a Flame Charge (which means it outspeeds Gengar too), 16 EVs + Adamant nature to hit a bonus point and the remaining EVs are dumped into the bulk. I think Slither Wing is one of the Pokémon which can innovate the most in terms of set diversity, there is a lot of great sets already (Choice Band and Choice Scarf, Heavy-Duty Boots or Protective Pad + Morning Sun pivot) and some not tested yet a lot (Tera Fire Flame Charge + Bulk Up or defensive variants). Overall, this set will not break all team with ease, it needs some support to be effective and I think it's much better with some Shed Tail support since it makes its setup easier, but it's a good set to surprise the opponent.
Replays :
Replay 1 : In this replay, Slither Wing is able to setup vs Talonflame thanks to its Tera Fire which allows it to weaken a lot of the opponent's team.
Replay 2 : In this replay, Slither Wing doesn't need to use its Tera Fire and it's able to setup vs Alomomola once it's behind the big Substitute of Earthworm while being faster than Maushold which prevents the opponent to use Encore on it.
I'm wondering that if Rain moves to OU, will Gastrodon and Quagsire's usage drop or remain the same? Also I kinda feel bad for Flareon because it got the ability to actually make better use of Guts with Tera removing the Fire Type immunity to burns, but it lost Facade in the process, so it can't make full use of that newfound potential, otherwise Tera Normal FO Guts-boosted Facade coming off of something with a base 130 Attack could have maybe got some usage. On the bright side it got Trailblaze to hit all 3 of it's weaknesses super effectively on top of grabbing a +1 Speed boost
Flareon still has Facade, I have a set with that Flare Blitz, Trailblaze, and Protect in game. Not sure how good it is really but waiting to use it among friends.
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