np: SV UU Stage 1: Re-Entry (Beta starts now, bye Espathra!)

[PrincessGardevoir]

Personally, I don't think Rain's broken rn - as everyone else has said so far, there's a bunch of soft checks to Floatzel in particular (bulky waters, Tera Water Orth, Rocky Helmet users), and Kilo's really the main driving factor that makes Rain problematic as it just wins vs every Floatzel check, I just find it irritating as hell to fight. I make sure every team, even ahead of having a hazard remover, has a rain answer and/or a priority user. It's not suffocating on teambuilding, mostly because I've just accepted that I'll lose to rain every once in a while.

I'd rather fight PIF stall than go up against a rain team most days though lmao



To avoid having yet another post in this thread of me complaining about rain, I want to bring up one of my favorite mons to bring in Showdown tournaments:

to a nonbeliever (Scovillain) @ Focus Sash / Life Orb / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Chlorophyll
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Giga Drain
- Overheat / Protect
- Growth

Tera Fire Fire Blast absolutely cooks everything that isn't Chansey or Blissey under Sun, no matter how hard Sun is to keep up. Sun setters suck major ass right now, but I've been using Sandy since it often sends in Specially Defensive mons or Ground types for free and it's worked out well so far. Is Focus Sash the best item on it? No. Is overheat necessary? Also no. Protect would likely be better for scouting the intentions of Slither and Lokix, and Life Orb can help further push your damage against the few things that can stop Scovillain instantly. Max speed and Timid is the only way to ensure that base 110 Scarfers like Gengar can't bop you. Grass/Fire does have kinda sucky coverage, so having Rocks up to make the Dragons have a harder time getting in on a boosted Sco is necessary. It's so hard to make it work that you will need to either build entirely around it or have a shell of actually viable mons in the back to solve your problems (Ex. HO Slither/Sandy/Screens Klef, BO Slowtwin/Tink/Talon, etc). You also absolutely want something that breaks Blissey or you lose at match start.

HOWEVER.

Is Scovillain also incredibly fucking fun? OF COURSE IT IS! Nothing feels better than doing 80% to even reasonably bulky resists, and Giga Drain means you have a way of bonking Hippowdon and Tyranitar if they change the weather. I've also had more than one match where Scovillain managed to get back to full HP, then activated its Focus Sash afterwards. With only a handful of resistances, difficulty getting on the field, and the fact it still gets walled by half of the good mons right now, it's so gratifying to be able to win games with the angry plant. It's great, and I fully recommend trying out the Certified D Tier Pokemon!


Funny calcs:
+2 252 SpA Scovillain Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon in Sun: 258-303 (79.3 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Scovillain Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gyarados in Sun: 235-277 (70.9 - 83.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Scovillain Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tera Water Orthworm in Sun: 382-450 (111 - 130.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Scovillain Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Talonflame in Sun: 318-375 (88.3 - 104.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

Sadly, Blissey still walls you:
+2 252 SpA Scovillain Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey in Sun: 364-429 (50.9 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Tera Fire Scovillain Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey in Sun: 576-678 (80.6 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[SpritePony]

Personally, I don't think Rain's broken rn - as everyone else has said so far, there's a bunch of soft checks to Floatzel in particular (bulky waters, Tera Water Orth, Rocky Helmet users), and Kilo's really the main driving factor that makes Rain problematic as it just wins vs every Floatzel check, I just find it irritating as hell to fight. I make sure every team, even ahead of having a hazard remover, has a rain answer and/or a priority user. It's not suffocating on teambuilding, mostly because I've just accepted that I'll lose to rain every once in a while.

I'd rather fight PIF stall than go up against a rain team most days though lmao



To avoid having yet another post in this thread of me complaining about rain, I want to bring up one of my favorite mons to bring in Showdown tournaments:

View attachment 482731
to a nonbeliever (Scovillain) @ Focus Sash / Life Orb / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Chlorophyll
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fire Blast
- Giga Drain
- Overheat / Protect
- Growth

Tera Fire Fire Blast absolutely cooks everything that isn't Chansey or Blissey under Sun, no matter how hard Sun is to keep up. Sun setters suck major ass right now, but I've been using Sandy since it often sends in Specially Defensive mons or Ground types for free and it's worked out well so far. Is Focus Sash the best item on it? No. Is overheat necessary? Also no. Protect would likely be better for scouting the intentions of Slither and Lokix, and Life Orb can help further push your damage against the few things that can stop Scovillain instantly. Max speed and Timid is the only way to ensure that base 110 Scarfers like Gengar can't bop you. Grass/Fire does have kinda sucky coverage, so having Rocks up to make the Dragons have a harder time getting in on a boosted Sco is necessary. It's so hard to make it work that you will need to either build entirely around it or have a shell of actually viable mons in the back to solve your problems (Ex. HO Slither/Sandy/Screens Klef, BO Slowtwin/Tink/Talon, etc). You also absolutely want something that breaks Blissey or you lose at match start.

HOWEVER.

Is Scovillain also incredibly fucking fun? OF COURSE IT IS! Nothing feels better than doing 80% to even reasonably bulky resists, and Giga Drain means you have a way of bonking Hippowdon and Tyranitar if they change the weather. I've also had more than one match where Scovillain managed to get back to full HP, then activated its Focus Sash afterwards. With only a handful of resistances, difficulty getting on the field, and the fact it still gets walled by half of the good mons right now, it's so gratifying to be able to win games with the angry plant. It's great, and I fully recommend trying out the Certified D Tier Pokemon!


Funny calcs:
+2 252 SpA Scovillain Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon in Sun: 258-303 (79.3 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Scovillain Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gyarados in Sun: 235-277 (70.9 - 83.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Scovillain Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tera Water Orthworm in Sun: 382-450 (111 - 130.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Scovillain Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Talonflame in Sun: 318-375 (88.3 - 104.1%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

Sadly, Blissey still walls you:
+2 252 SpA Scovillain Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey in Sun: 364-429 (50.9 - 60%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Tera Fire Scovillain Overheat vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey in Sun: 576-678 (80.6 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

How are you setting sun without Torkoal?

 

[jawsome274]

How are you setting sun without Torkoal?

Probably with grafaiai or klefki

 

[Negative Charge]

Am I the only one still using altaria? I was going to drop it for defensive mence but I was shocked to see it lost defog so I am sticking with cotton ball for now. It's a nice check/counter to most of the fighting and bug types running around, and willowisp is nice.

 

[Tenurium]

How are you setting sun without Torkoal?

It's in the post, they use Sunny Day Sandy Shocks. I'd be semi-curious how you actually get Scovillain in, I feel like hard switching defeats the point of the sash if you run it and might put you on a very short timer with LO. If Sandy does draw Grounds, you can't just volt switch them, plus it's pretty fast anyway, so there's a decent chance you eat a hit even if it is just a specially defensive/resisting mon. Does look like a fun set tho, if fairly labour intensive.

 

[SpritePony]

Honestly, I wasn't really sure about putting this out here, but I might as well with some others being a bit silly with Cryogonal in OU and Scovillain in UU.

"But Sprite, what Pokemon could you possibly pull out of your butt for this?"
Great question, random person! I'm bringing to you guys, Talonflame!

"But isn't Talonflame one of the best tanks in UU right now?"
Also a great question! Yes, it is! But this isn't a tank Talonflame, this is offensive Talonflame!

"Bulk Up? Swords Dance? Life Orb? Choice Band?"
Nope! Today, I'm bringing to you guys, Choice Specs Talonflame. A personal, pet project of mine.

"Why Specs? Isn't Band better?" you may be asking. And yes, most people WOULD consider Choice Band Talonflame to be the better of the two. However, if we take a look at Talonflame's Base Stat Distribution (BSD), we'll see that Talonflame's Attack and Special Attack aren't that far apart from each other.

Talonflame's Base Stats:

• HP: 78
• Attack: 81
• Defense: 71
• Sp. Attack: 74
• Sp. Defense: 69 (nice)
• Speed: 126

Our Attack and Special Attack are only a mere 7 points difference; In a Lv50/All format, that's exactly 7 if both are fully invested/not invested at all, and 14 at Lv100/all. Thus, both Band and Specs can be used.

"But what about moves? Doesn't Band have access to better tools?"
Yes and no. Physical Talonflame has access to Acrobatics, Brave Bird, Flare Blitz, Quick Attack, Roost, Steel Wing, Swords Dance, Bulk Up, Taunt, Tera Blast, U-Turn, and Will-o-Wisp.
Special Talonflame has access to much of the same; Roost, U-Turn, Taunt, Tera Blast, Will-o-Wisp, Fire Blast, Overheat, Air Slash, Hurricane, Flamethrower, and Solar Beam.
Each one has their tools, and even though PhysFlame gets a better U-Turn than SpecFlame, SpecFlame has one major trade-off over PhysFlame -- Accuracy on power house moves (Flare Blitz/Brave Bird) for no contact, no recoil (Fire Blast/Overheat/Flamethrower/Air Slash/Hurricane).

"So, what about the set?"
Well, there's two sets that I really see working well;

@ Choice Specs
Timid Nature | Tera Ground / Tera Water
Flame Body
252 SpAtk / 252 Speed / 6 SpDef
Fire Blast / Overheat / Flamethrower
Hurricane / Air Slash
Tera Blast / Solar Beam
U-Turn

Yep. Both Talonflame sets are one in the same. The only differences being the Tera Type, and whether you want to sacrifice power for accuracy. There is actually a lot to unpack here.

• Timid vs Modest: Timid allows us to outpace a lot of different fast Pokemon, and slower Scarf users. 126 Speed is nothing to sneeze at, and Timid only pushes it even further over the edge. Timid 252 Speed Talonflame vs Timid 252 Scarf Magnezone: 386 vs 360. Modest nets you 351 speed, being outpaced by Magnezone.
• Tera Blast vs Solar Beam: Player preference, and should be chosen based upon if you're using Sun or not. 9 times out of 10, Tera Blast is the better choice.
• Tera Ground vs Tera Water. I would say this is up to player preference and team build, but Tera Ground is by and far the clear winner here, in my opinion. Both change your defensive properties, and allow you to heavily hit to absolutely obliterate your various checks. Ground removes your weaknesses to Electric and Rock while keeping your Water weakness. Water removes your Rock and Water weaknesses, while keeping your Electric weakness. However, the key difference between the two is your properties vs Stealth Rocks. Ground allows you to go from x4 Stealth Rock weakness to x2 resistance. Water merely makes you neutral.

I know a lot of people won't be sold on this alone, so I went ahead and ran a bunch of numbers on various checks to this style of Talonflame.

Tera Ground:

• 252 SpAtk Specs Talonflame Tera Blast vs 0 HP / 0SpDef Pawmot: 145.1 - 171.5%
• 252 SpAtk Specs Talonflame Tera Blast vs 0 HP / 4 SpDef Iron Thorns: 182.9 - 215.8%
• 252 SpAtk Specs Talonflame Tera Blast vs 0 HP / 4 SpDef Sandy Shocks: 99 - 117.6%

• 252 SpAtk Specs Talonflame Tera Blast vs 252 HP / 252+ SpDef Garganacl: 51.9 - 61.3% (95.3% to 2HKO after Leftovers without Garg Tera)
• 252 SpAtk Specs Talonflame Tera Blast vs 0 HP / 0 SpDef Glimmora: 208.4 - 247.5%
• 252 SpAtk Specs Talonflame Tera Blast vs 0 HP / 0 SpDef Tyranitar: 53.3 - 63.3% (Guaranteed 2HKO)
• 252 SpAtk Specs Talonflame Tera Blast vs 252 HP / 252+ SpDef Tyranitar - 32.6 - 38.6% (97.9% chance to 3HKO)

• 252 SpAtk Specs Talonflame Tera Blast vs 252 HP / 200+ SpDef Ceruledge: 57.6 - 68.3% (Guaranteed 2HKO)
• 252 SpAtk Specs Talonflame Tera Blast vs 0 HP / 6 SpDef Cinderace: 112.2 - 133.5%
• 252 SpAtk Specs Talonflame Tera Blast vs 248 HP / 252+ SpDef Skeledirge - 57.4 - 67.6% (Guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers without Dirge Tera)
• 252 SpAtk Specs Talonflame Tera Blast vs 252 HP / 4 SpDef Armarouge: 86.6 - 102.6%
• 252 SpAtk Specs Talonflame Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 64 SpDef Toxapex: 63.1 - 75%

Tera Water:

A lot of the calcs from Ground also apply to Water, namely your Rock and Fire calcs. However, Water allows you to hit Grounds.

• 252 SpAtk Specs Talonflame Tera Blast vs 248 / 252+ SpDef Clodsire: 41.9 - 49.6% (Unless Water Absorb, then null.)
• 252 SpAtk Specs Talonflame Tera Blast vs 252 HP / 6 SpDef Great Tusk: 102.3% - 120.7%
• 252 SpAtk Specs Talonflame Tera Blast vs 252 HP / 6 SpDef Assault Vest Iron Treads: 62.5 - 73.9% (Guaranteed 2HKO)
• 252 SpAtk Specs Talonflame Tera Blast vs 252 HP / 252+ SpDef Ting-Lu: 32.6 - 38.9% (6.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers)
• 252 SpAtk Specs Talonflame Tera Blast vs 252 HP / 252+ SpDef Hippowdon: 57.1 - 67.6% (Guaranteed 2HKO)

As you can see, numerous Fire/Ground/Rock/Electric checks are either heavily dented, or are straight up OHKO'd from Tera Ground or Tera Water. Even some Specially Defensive and/or Assault Vest variants. Quite a number of your checks suddenly either get denied or straight up drop to a Terastalization and Tera Blast. Some can be covered by your other moves as well.

The main counters to this kind of Talonflame are of course Pokemon that are resistant to all of your attacks, or are excessively bulky. Gastrodon, Blissey, Rotom-Wash, Bulky Rotom-Heat for Tera Ground, Clodsire if it carries Water Absorb vs Tera Water, Ting-Lu, Scream Tail, and Slowking are the main list of checks that can beat you one on one. Good Pokemon to pair up with Talonflame, of course, are other Pokemon that can deny or remove hazards, or take care of your checks.

If you play with this in the in-game Random Battles, or in the OU Tier, you outpace a lot of Pokemon that aren't Scarfed. Cinderace, Meowscarada, Gholdengo, Setup Glimmora, Iron Moth (if not Booster: Speed), Iron Valiant (same as Moth), Quaquaval without Aqua Jet, and even Kilowattrel.

Personally, I feel that this is a really fun and unexpected take on Talonflame. Most people will expect a Phys Def Talonflame, and not a fast Specs Talonflame.

I'm curious about how you guys feel about this. I don't know if I really left anything out.

 

[Moutemoute]

Honestly, I wasn't really sure about putting this out here, but I might as well with some others being a bit silly with Cryogonal in OU and Scovillain in UU.

"But Sprite, what Pokemon could you possibly pull out of your butt for this?"
Great question, random person! I'm bringing to you guys, Talonflame!

"But isn't Talonflame one of the best tanks in UU right now?"
Also a great question! Yes, it is! But this isn't a tank Talonflame, this is offensive Talonflame!

"Bulk Up? Swords Dance? Life Orb? Choice Band?"
Nope! Today, I'm bringing to you guys, Choice Specs Talonflame. A personal, pet project of mine.

"Why Specs? Isn't Band better?" you may be asking. And yes, most people WOULD consider Choice Band Talonflame to be the better of the two. However, if we take a look at Talonflame's Base Stat Distribution (BSD), we'll see that Talonflame's Attack and Special Attack aren't that far apart from each other.

Talonflame's Base Stats:

• HP: 78
• Attack: 81
• Defense: 71
• Sp. Attack: 74
• Sp. Defense: 69 (nice)
• Speed: 126

Our Attack and Special Attack are only a mere 7 points difference; In a Lv50/All format, that's exactly 7 if both are fully invested/not invested at all, and 14 at Lv100/all. Thus, both Band and Specs can be used.

"But what about moves? Doesn't Band have access to better tools?"
Yes and no. Physical Talonflame has access to Acrobatics, Brave Bird, Flare Blitz, Quick Attack, Roost, Steel Wing, Swords Dance, Bulk Up, Taunt, Tera Blast, U-Turn, and Will-o-Wisp.
Special Talonflame has access to much of the same; Roost, U-Turn, Taunt, Tera Blast, Will-o-Wisp, Fire Blast, Overheat, Air Slash, Hurricane, Flamethrower, and Solar Beam.
Each one has their tools, and even though PhysFlame gets a better U-Turn than SpecFlame, SpecFlame has one major trade-off over PhysFlame -- Accuracy on power house moves (Flare Blitz/Brave Bird) for no contact, no recoil (Fire Blast/Overheat/Flamethrower/Air Slash/Hurricane).

"So, what about the set?"
Well, there's two sets that I really see working well;

@ Choice Specs
Timid Nature | Tera Ground / Tera Water
252 SpAtk / 252 Speed / 6 SpDef
Fire Blast / Overheat / Flamethrower
Hurricane / Air Slash
Tera Blast / Solar Beam
U-Turn

Yep. Both Talonflame sets are one in the same. The only differences being the Tera Type, and whether you want to sacrifice power for accuracy. There is actually a lot to unpack here.

• Timid vs Modest: Timid allows us to outpace a lot of different fast Pokemon, and slower Scarf users. 126 Speed is nothing to sneeze at, and Timid only pushes it even further over the edge. Timid 252 Speed Talonflame vs Timid 252 Scarf Magnezone: 386 vs 360. Modest nets you 351 speed, being outpaced by Magnezone.
• Tera Blast vs Solar Beam: Player preference, and should be chosen based upon if you're using Sun or not. 9 times out of 10, Tera Blast is the better choice.
• Tera Ground vs Tera Water. I would say this is up to player preference and team build, but Tera Ground is by and far the clear winner here, in my opinion. Both change your defensive properties, and allow you to heavily hit to absolutely obliterate your various checks. Ground removes your weaknesses to Electric and Rock while keeping your Water weakness. Water removes your Rock and Water weaknesses, while keeping your Electric weakness. However, the key difference between the two is your properties vs Stealth Rocks. Ground allows you to go from x4 Stealth Rock weakness to x2 resistance. Water merely makes you neutral.

I know a lot of people won't be sold on this alone, so I went ahead and ran a bunch of numbers on various checks to this style of Talonflame.

Tera Ground:

• 252 SpAtk Specs Talonflame Tera Blast vs 0 HP / 0SpDef Pawmot: 145.1 - 171.5%
• 252 SpAtk Specs Talonflame Tera Blast vs 0 HP / 4 SpDef Iron Thorns: 182.9 - 215.8%
• 252 SpAtk Specs Talonflame Tera Blast vs 0 HP / 4 SpDef Sandy Shocks: 99 - 117.6%

• 252 SpAtk Specs Talonflame Tera Blast vs 252 HP / 252+ SpDef Garganacl: 51.9 - 61.3% (95.3% to 2HKO after Leftovers without Garg Tera)
• 252 SpAtk Specs Talonflame Tera Blast vs 0 HP / 0 SpDef Glimmora: 208.4 - 247.5%
• 252 SpAtk Specs Talonflame Tera Blast vs 0 HP / 0 SpDef Tyranitar: 53.3 - 63.3% (Guaranteed 2HKO)
• 252 SpAtk Specs Talonflame Tera Blast vs 252 HP / 252+ SpDef Tyranitar - 32.6 - 38.6% (97.9% chance to 3HKO)

• 252 SpAtk Specs Talonflame Tera Blast vs 252 HP / 200+ SpDef Ceruledge: 57.6 - 68.3% (Guaranteed 2HKO)
• 252 SpAtk Specs Talonflame Tera Blast vs 0 HP / 6 SpDef Cinderace: 112.2 - 133.5%
• 252 SpAtk Specs Talonflame Tera Blast vs 248 HP / 252+ SpDef Skeledirge - 57.4 - 67.6% (Guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers without Dirge Tera)
• 252 SpAtk Specs Talonflame Tera Blast vs 252 HP / 4 SpDef Armarouge: 86.6 - 102.6%
• 252 SpAtk Specs Talonflame Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 64 SpDef Toxapex: 63.1 - 75%

Tera Water:

A lot of the calcs from Ground also apply to Water, namely your Rock and Fire calcs. However, Water allows you to hit Grounds.

• 252 SpAtk Specs Talonflame Tera Blast vs 248 / 252+ SpDef Clodsire: 41.9 - 49.6% (Unless Water Absorb, then null.)
• 252 SpAtk Specs Talonflame Tera Blast vs 252 HP / 6 SpDef Great Tusk: 102.3% - 120.7%
• 252 SpAtk Specs Talonflame Tera Blast vs 252 HP / 6 SpDef Assault Vest Iron Treads: 62.5 - 73.9% (Guaranteed 2HKO)
• 252 SpAtk Specs Talonflame Tera Blast vs 252 HP / 252+ SpDef Ting-Lu: 32.6 - 38.9% (6.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers)
• 252 SpAtk Specs Talonflame Tera Blast vs 252 HP / 252+ SpDef Hippowdon: 57.1 - 67.6% (Guaranteed 2HKO)

As you can see, numerous Fire/Ground/Rock/Electric checks are either heavily dented, or are straight up OHKO'd from Tera Ground or Tera Water. Even some Specially Defensive and/or Assault Vest variants. Quite a number of your checks suddenly either get denied or straight up drop to a Terastalization and Tera Blast. Some can be covered by your other moves as well.

The main counters to this kind of Talonflame are of course Pokemon that are resistant to all of your attacks, or are excessively bulky. Gastrodon, Blissey, Rotom-Wash, Bulky Rotom-Heat for Tera Ground, Clodsire if it carries Water Absorb vs Tera Water, Ting-Lu, Scream Tail, and Slowking are the main list of checks that can beat you one on one. Good Pokemon to pair up with Talonflame, of course, are other Pokemon that can deny or remove hazards, or take care of your checks.

If you play with this in the in-game Random Battles, or in the OU Tier, you outpace a lot of Pokemon that aren't Scarfed. Cinderace, Meowscarada, Gholdengo, Setup Glimmora, Iron Moth (if not Booster: Speed), Iron Valiant (same as Moth), Quaquaval without Aqua Jet, and even Kilowattrel.

Personally, I feel that this is a really fun and unexpected take on Talonflame. Most people will expect a Phys Def Talonflame, and not a fast Specs Talonflame.

I'm curious about how you guys feel about this. I don't know if I really left anything out.

Hey there and welcome in the UU subforum. Since we're in the UU subforum, mentionning OU Pokémon isn't relevant. Also it's quite tough to justify to use Choice Specs Talonflame when we have Armarouge which is an insanely better Fire-type special attacker. Talonflame is too valuable as a fast pivot / defogger in the tier thanks to its ability Flame Body alongside Roost which allows it to punish multiple physical threats. I trully struggle to think this set could be relevant in a tier with things like Gastrodon, Slowking and a ton of Stealth Rocks setter. Also as you mentionned it, you kinda need to use your Terastallization to be able to perform with this set (which is always kinda iffy to justify since you'll tend to want to use other Pokémon for Tera). But otherwise this is a good spirited post.

 

[SpritePony]

Hey there and welcome in the UU subforum. Since we're in the UU subforum, mentionning OU Pokémon isn't relevant. Also it's quite tough to justify to use Choice Specs Talonflame when we have Armarouge which is an insanely better Fire-type special attacker. Talonflame is too valuable as a fast pivot / defogger in the tier thanks to its ability Flame Body alongside Roost which allows it to punish multiple physical threats. I trully struggle to think this set could be relevant in a tier with things like Gastrodon, Slowking and a ton of Stealth Rocks setter. Also as you mentionned it, you kinda need to use your Terastallization to be able to perform with this set (which is always kinda iffy to justify since you'll tend to want to use other Pokémon for Tera). But otherwise this is a good spirited post.

I only mentioned the OU mons as a reference point. Yes, you CAN commit Tera to it, but you don't always HAVE to. Even then, Tera on this is both defensive and offensive, regardless of which way you go with your Tera of choice.
Do other, better fires exist? Yes. But that doesn't mean that this can't be a surprise factor in fights. Most people expect bulk TFlame, so an offensively one can pull some sneaky stuff that Arma can't even do. Namely outspeeding mons without needing to rely on Weak Armor/Scarf (even though this is a Specs set), having pivot potential, and still having room to potentially Defog/Roost.

But hey, I've always been an "against the grain" type of person. I run Loaded Dice MoxieCross and Eviolite Tera Fire Magneton. I'm not surprised to be getting a response like this, lol.

 

[PrincessGardevoir]

How are you setting sun without Torkoal?

As I said in my original post as literally the second line, Sandy's been my primary Sun setter since it already forces switches excellently, although I've considered Grafaiai and Scream Tail (the former is too predictable, the latter just not my style.) No other potential Sun setter both takes advantage of Sun and has enough offensive presence to make setting up Sun not a hassle or a waste of a move slot.

I also fully recommend just using Specs Kilowattrel with Tera Fire if you're desperate for a Fire type Specs Flier. Specs Talon has cool calcs but they mean nothing if in practice Talon has no reason to get in for free, and it still loses to a lot of special walls. No Boots means you eat 50% on switchin, at which point virtually everything will OHKO you.

It's in the post, they use Sunny Day Sandy Shocks. I'd be semi-curious how you actually get Scovillain in, I feel like hard switching defeats the point of the sash if you run it and might put you on a very short timer with LO. If Sandy does draw Grounds, you can't just volt switch them, plus it's pretty fast anyway, so there's a decent chance you eat a hit even if it is just a specially defensive/resisting mon. Does look like a fun set tho, if fairly labour intensive

Focus Sash was mostly a handover from my Monotype set with Scovillain, although it means you have a way to eat one Specs Gengar Shadow Ball or [insert strong move] and Growth in its face. Boots would probably put less pressure on your defogger, though.

Sandy's extremely high maintenance, is inconsistent as fuck, and just loses to stall, but that's why I love it so much. Sandy usually pivots to Slither, then gets a U-Turn usually unless it's a Hippowdon, where I usually Tera Ice Terablast to delete it (252 SpA Protosynthesis Tera Ice Sandy Shocks Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Hippowdon: 288-338 (68.5 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery )

 

[sleestacks]

I'd like to bring attention to Choice Specs Salamence, a VERY strong wallbreaker/lure that doesn't see enough usage in my opinion. It's annoyed by stealth rock a bit, but with good removal (basically tsareena or talonflame), it's an absolute monster, especially considering the surprise factor.

The set

The Optometrist (Salamence) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Flamethrower
- Hurricane
- Hydro Pump

Specs Salamence excels as a lure because you can't exactly play around it extrordinarily well even if you know it's a viable set. You're almost certainly not going to switch in a Blissey or a Tinkaton on a Salamence unless you have your opponent's Pokepaste, since 99% of the time your opponents will switch into Hippowdon, Donphan, Orthworm, Quagsire, or some other big physical wall. All of these take either massive damage or are knocked out by Salamence's Draco Meteor. Keep in mind that you have other moves, too. If you deduce that your opponent realizes that you are specs, it's pretty easy to smack Scream Tail with a hurricane, Tinkaton with a Flamethrower, or whatever other special walls your opponent has in.

The Calcs:
252 SpA Choice Specs Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 370-436 (88 - 103.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Donphan: 423-498 (110.4 - 130%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Quagsire: 402-474 (102 - 120.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Orthworm: 228-269 (66.2 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (2 dracos is enough to stop a shed tail, even with sitrus)
252 SpA Choice Specs Salamence Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Scream Tail: 213-252 (49 - 58%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Salamence Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Scream Tail: 157-186 (36.1 - 42.8%) -- 95.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Specs Mence works well on teams like this* where strong physical attackers can take advantage of big chip damage on the aforementioned physical walls. You need to pair it with somehting that can put big pressure on or lure spdef scream tail, since it's the most common thing that doesnt mind switching into both physical and special mence sets. In the case of the team that I just linked, I have Tera Blast Steel on my slither wing in order to OHKO scream tail.

Finally, I'd like to talk about one last thing that makes Specs salamence so good: even if your opponent knows that you have it, its still a strong-ass wallbreaker. Throwing out Draco Meteors and Hurricanes off of a 110 base special attack will never NOT be valued. The fact that it has the surprise factor as well as this strong breaking power is what truly makes it a great pick.

*the team displayed is still very much being worked on by me. however, the core concepts at play are very strong and are what I'm trying to show with that team.

 

[Tenurium]

I'd like to bring attention to Choice Specs Salamence, a VERY strong wallbreaker/lure that doesn't see enough usage in my opinion. It's annoyed by stealth rock a bit, but with good removal (basically tsareena or talonflame), it's an absolute monster, especially considering the surprise factor.

The set

The Optometrist (Salamence) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Flamethrower
- Hurricane
- Hydro Pump

Specs Salamence excels as a lure because you can't exactly play around it extrordinarily well even if you know it's a viable set. You're almost certainly not going to switch in a Blissey or a Tinkaton on a Salamence unless you have your opponent's Pokepaste, since 99% of the time your opponents will switch into Hippowdon, Donphan, Orthworm, Quagsire, or some other big physical wall. All of these take either massive damage or are knocked out by Salamence's Draco Meteor. Keep in mind that you have other moves, too. If you deduce that your opponent realizes that you are specs, it's pretty easy to smack Scream Tail with a hurricane, Tinkaton with a Flamethrower, or whatever other special walls your opponent has in.

The Calcs:
252 SpA Choice Specs Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hippowdon: 370-436 (88 - 103.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Donphan: 423-498 (110.4 - 130%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Quagsire: 402-474 (102 - 120.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Salamence Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Orthworm: 228-269 (66.2 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (2 dracos is enough to stop a shed tail, even with sitrus)
252 SpA Choice Specs Salamence Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Scream Tail: 213-252 (49 - 58%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Salamence Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Scream Tail: 157-186 (36.1 - 42.8%) -- 95.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Specs Mence works well on teams like this* where strong physical attackers can take advantage of big chip damage on the aforementioned physical walls. You need to pair it with somehting that can put big pressure on or lure spdef scream tail, since it's the most common thing that doesnt mind switching into both physical and special mence sets. In the case of the team that I just linked, I have Tera Blast Steel on my slither wing in order to OHKO scream tail.

Finally, I'd like to talk about one last thing that makes Specs salamence so good: even if your opponent knows that you have it, its still a strong-ass wallbreaker. Throwing out Draco Meteors and Hurricanes off of a 110 base special attack will never NOT be valued. The fact that it has the surprise factor as well as this strong breaking power is what truly makes it a great pick.

*the team displayed is still very much being worked on by me. however, the core concepts at play are very strong and are what I'm trying to show with that team.

I was considering Specs Mence to replace Hydreigon, but on that particular team, the synergy with electric terrain did put Iron Jugulis ahead of it for that role. Out of curiosity, is there a reason you're running Flamethrower over Fire Blast?
From some cursory calcing against the tiers Steel types, FB does seem to hit some threshholds:

It always OHKOs phys invested Klefki, while Flamethrower is a roll even after rocks:
( 252 SpA Choice Specs Salamence Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Klefki: 358-422 (112.5 - 132.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Salamence Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Klefki: 294-346 (92.4 - 108.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)

It is a good roll to OHKO against Tinkaton with no Bulk Investment (guaranteed with Rocks up), which is the spread the teambuilder suggest for Rocks, T-Wave, Knock Off, Hammer Tink,
(252 SpA Choice Specs Salamence Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tinkaton: 306-360 (98.3 - 115.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock,
252 SpA Choice Specs Salamence Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tinkaton: 250-296 (80.3 - 95.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)

and it is a roll against HP invested Tink with rocks that's guaranteed with Rocks + x1 Spikes (or 87% with 2x Spikes) while Flamethrower needs Rocks and 3x Spikes:
( 252 SpA Choice Specs Salamence Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tinkaton: 306-360 (81.8 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
252 SpA Choice Specs Salamence Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tinkaton: 250-296 (66.8 - 79.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 2 layers of Spikes )

It also OHKOs non-Eviolite HP Invested Bisharp, while Flamethrower is a roll even after Rocks (which is admittedly niche enough that I'm not even gonna include the calcs, who would run Bulky Bisharp but not Eviolite?)
I guess it does still two shot everything if you do read the switch-in, but since the damage very much gives away that you're specs, it gives them an alright enough switching opportunity and lets them keep whatever you hit as a sack. It is of course a lot more reliable, since you don't gamble on a 85 every time you use it.

 

[Athyestic]

I was considering Specs Mence to replace Hydreigon, but on that particular team, the synergy with electric terrain did put Iron Jugulis ahead of it for that role. Out of curiosity, is there a reason you're running Flamethrower over Fire Blast?
From some cursory calcing against the tiers Steel types, FB does seem to hit some threshholds:

It always OHKOs phys invested Klefki, while Flamethrower is a roll even after rocks:
( 252 SpA Choice Specs Salamence Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Klefki: 358-422 (112.5 - 132.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Salamence Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Klefki: 294-346 (92.4 - 108.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)

It is a good roll to OHKO against Tinkaton with no Bulk Investment (guaranteed with Rocks up), which is the spread the teambuilder suggest for Rocks, T-Wave, Knock Off, Hammer Tink,
(252 SpA Choice Specs Salamence Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tinkaton: 306-360 (98.3 - 115.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock,
252 SpA Choice Specs Salamence Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tinkaton: 250-296 (80.3 - 95.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)

and it is a roll against HP invested Tink with rocks that's guaranteed with Rocks + x1 Spikes (or 87% with 2x Spikes) while Flamethrower needs Rocks and 3x Spikes:
( 252 SpA Choice Specs Salamence Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tinkaton: 306-360 (81.8 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
252 SpA Choice Specs Salamence Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tinkaton: 250-296 (66.8 - 79.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 2 layers of Spikes )

It also OHKOs non-Eviolite HP Invested Bisharp, while Flamethrower is a roll even after Rocks (which is admittedly niche enough that I'm not even gonna include the calcs, who would run Bulky Bisharp but not Eviolite?)
I guess it does still two shot everything if you do read the switch-in, but since the damage very much gives away that you're specs, it gives them an alright enough switching opportunity and lets them keep whatever you hit as a sack. It is of course a lot more reliable, since you don't gamble on a 85 every time you use it.

I’ve ran some specs mence and it’s just nice to have an attack that won’t miss on you, Fire Blast’s added damage is big but I will miss the move.

 

[sleestacks]

I was considering Specs Mence to replace Hydreigon, but on that particular team, the synergy with electric terrain did put Iron Jugulis ahead of it for that role. Out of curiosity, is there a reason you're running Flamethrower over Fire Blast?
From some cursory calcing against the tiers Steel types, FB does seem to hit some threshholds:

It always OHKOs phys invested Klefki, while Flamethrower is a roll even after rocks:
( 252 SpA Choice Specs Salamence Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Klefki: 358-422 (112.5 - 132.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Salamence Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Klefki: 294-346 (92.4 - 108.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)

It is a good roll to OHKO against Tinkaton with no Bulk Investment (guaranteed with Rocks up), which is the spread the teambuilder suggest for Rocks, T-Wave, Knock Off, Hammer Tink,
(252 SpA Choice Specs Salamence Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tinkaton: 306-360 (98.3 - 115.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock,
252 SpA Choice Specs Salamence Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tinkaton: 250-296 (80.3 - 95.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)

and it is a roll against HP invested Tink with rocks that's guaranteed with Rocks + x1 Spikes (or 87% with 2x Spikes) while Flamethrower needs Rocks and 3x Spikes:
( 252 SpA Choice Specs Salamence Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tinkaton: 306-360 (81.8 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 layer of Spikes
252 SpA Choice Specs Salamence Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tinkaton: 250-296 (66.8 - 79.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and 2 layers of Spikes )

It also OHKOs non-Eviolite HP Invested Bisharp, while Flamethrower is a roll even after Rocks (which is admittedly niche enough that I'm not even gonna include the calcs, who would run Bulky Bisharp but not Eviolite?)
I guess it does still two shot everything if you do read the switch-in, but since the damage very much gives away that you're specs, it gives them an alright enough switching opportunity and lets them keep whatever you hit as a sack. It is of course a lot more reliable, since you don't gamble on a 85 every time you use it.

I forgot to mention the difference between fire blast and flamethrower, but as mentioned by others, the inconsistency really hurts. It's really up to personal preference, though. Either move works, but I prefer the safety of having at least one move that can't miss.

 

[Turtlek]

( 252 SpA Choice Specs Salamence Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Klefki: 358-422 (112.5 - 132.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Salamence Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Klefki: 294-346 (92.4 - 108.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock)

isn't that calc irrevelant? flamethrower has 87.5% ko, fire blast has 85% hit.
Also, do you have some good cleaners ? Had a Hydregon in my DragMag and I try to replace it

 

[Tenurium]

isn't that calc irrevelant? flamethrower has 87.5% ko, fire blast has 85% hit.
Also, do you have some good cleaners ? Had a Hydregon in my DragMag and I try to replace it

It's 87,5% after Rocks, without them it is 252 SpA Choice Specs Salamence Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Klefki: 294-346 (92.4 - 108.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO, which is a fair bit lower. Was more so there to show that Rocks don't put it to guaranteed OHKO range. FB is guaranteed to two shot through light screen, too, while Flamethrower doesn't; but yea, overall, the difference is fairly minor, and I do see the point of having at least 1 move with full accuracy. I'd say it's as they said and mostly a matter of preference.

As for cleaners, I dunno, my team runs Scarf Gallade and Hawlucha ends up being one more often than not, but you probably don't just have a terrain lying about to set it up, so you'd likely not get the same mileage out of it as I do, especially since it's for a drag mag.

 

[Slip]

Since our lovely council has given us a viability ranking thread recently, I wanted to highlight some of the Pokemon that have been slotted into the viable tier that I think are worth exploring more or worth people's time to use. I feel like there is a lot of discrepancy in this tier since we don't have normal A, B, C tier rankings right now, which makes me want to give love to the lower used Pokemon that I think can shine.

I am going to make this as organized as I can, but I am an all over the place kind of person so don't expect much. Now let's begin!

Altaria

I've been pretty big on this Pokemon since day 1 as I love defensive Dragon-types (I was told my biggest building pattern in SS was slapping Salamence on everything lol). Altaria takes this job from Salamence as it seemed to have stolen Salamence's Will-O-Wisp coverage on top of it's defensive role. Altaria also takes a lot of physical moves extremely well to the point not much beats it on that side. Altaria almost completely dropped off due to the existence of Baxcalibur and Hydreigon, but now that they are banned I am excited to start building with this again. Other than Will-O-Wisp, Altaria can be ran with physical or special offensive moves, can run Haze for set up Pokemon, Defog for hazard control, and can soak up status conditions with Natural Cure. It is an extremely versatile wall that I believe can carry more weight than people first think.

Frosmoth

​

Frosmoth is probably the most interesting pick on my list of worthwhile Pokemon, but I do genuinely think it has a place again with Baxcalibur banned. Our tier no longer has any Ice-type Pokemon, and our Fairy and Steel-types can struggle stopping our dragons thanks to terastalization which helps boost their coverage moves for either type. Frosmoth is an offensive answer to this in a certain way. The issue with Frosmoth is that it is painfully slow for a Pokemon with such amazing moves and now even better coverage with terastalization. But, it is also in a strangely lucky spot where the popular Pokemon that are faster than it after one Quiver Dance (modest +1 speed hits 343 and timid isn't much faster) are all special attackers (bar talonflame and hawlucha). This is huge in a lot of match ups as Frosmoth has Ice Scales as an ability which halfs all special damage on top of a +1 boost to Sp.Def from Quiver Dance. With tera blast widening options for Frosmoth as well, a lot of normal counters can turn into setup fodder for Frosmoth after a single boost. We also have a lot of encore users which allows Frosmoth a lot more chances to come in and setup as well. This Pokemon is probably the most shaky on the list, but I do genuinely think it is good enough for people to try.

Gardevoir

Gardevoir is our one offensive Fairy-type right now and an excellent choice in a lot of matchups imo. Trace as an ability can be a nice extra reassurance against rain teams, trace Regenerator from the slow twins, and be one of the fiew viable Choice Scarf options in the tier right now. A lot of people have been worried about the Fighting-types in the tier, and Gardevoir is a great overlooked answer to them. Resistances for fairy are not entirely super common right now or are put solely on a single Tinkaton that can be heavily worn down thanks to a lack of recovery. Our meta is still fairly offensive with not as many bulky answers showing up, meaning that scarf Gardevoir hits hard for what it needs right now. Trick is also always a nice addition if it gets loaded up into stall, and Healing Wish is another option that can really help these wall breakers who get burned by Talonflame come back for a late game sweep. I definitely think it can carry its weight more than expected right now.

Heracross

I have never came to believe in a Pokemon so fast. A guts Heracross at +1 speed thanks to Trailblaze is one of the scariest breakers/sweepers right now. It suffers a little bit from 4 move slot syndrome, but you can usually combine Facade, Close Combat, Throat Chop, and Rock Slide into a combination that can really help open the enemies team. Guts boosted Trailblaze also threatens our common bulky waters at an unimaginable level as their 4x weakness doesn't stand a chance to the sheer attack power Heracross has. Tera normal also makes Facade hit for an insane amount of damage to the point where almost every physical wall in the tier has trouble switching in. It also fills a complete different role than the First Impression bugs on teams, so it definitely has a spot to fill in the meta. I feel like out of all of these Pokemon, Heracross will cement itself as a nice solid pick for certain teams for a while after the shiny new Pokemon effect wares off.

Oricorio-Sensu

Pom Pom is usually better, but Sensu shouldn't be left down and out. It has quad resistance to the First Impression bugs, can spin block, and can find a lot of good opportunities to set up. One of its biggest pains in Hydreigon has been banned, and with tera fighting, Revelation Dance can get all the cover Sensu needs. This explanation is short, but since it does everything Pom Pom does, I'd recommend using it if you need to fit a nice Ghost-type on a team while also needing something that can set up on a good chunk of the tier.

Weavile

​

Physical and faster Frosmoth. Dragons being so good makes Weavile extremely good, though tera can be a blessing or a curse for this thing. Losing throat chop and knock off obviously sucks for it, but I think people are getting too caught up on that. The only thing that outspeeds Weavile is Barraskewda and Kilowattrel ties it. When I was using banded for the most recent drops, I was getting really good success with it. Tera fire or fighting can also really help it catch Steel-types or Tyranitar off guard. There is genuinely a lot that can be done here as Weavile is still a Weavile. I plan on trying Beat Up as my next building test in order to replace Night Slash, but it is definitely a Pokemon I think can still deal a lot of damage and put a reign of terror on opponents when put on the proper team.

Just to quickly wrap things up, I understand why all of these Pokemon got put into the viable tier. Most if not all require help from terastalization, suffer from 4mss, or genuinely can just fall flat at times. These are just some of the ones that stand out to me to be more consistant than the other Pokemon put in this tier. Big shoutout to the council for giving me a list to visualize my thoughts with!

Honorable mentions to Mabosstiff and Hariyama. They got potential, but I need to play around with them a bit more.

Also shoutout to tomatosoup110 for putting up with my building antics while I have been testing out all these lower tier Pokemon lol

 

[bigasschungusboi]

Does anyone here think that UUBL staple Staraptor will have to languish in his home for another gen, Or is there finally sufficient defensive and offensive counterplay?

 

[sumwun]

Why is Floatzel considered "better" than Barraskewda? Is Floatzel still better specifically on rain teams?

 

[bigasschungusboi]

funny tera water wave crash i think

 

[Tenurium]

Why is Floatzel considered "better" than Barraskewda? Is Floatzel still better specifically on rain teams?

Wave Crash does a fair bit more damage (which obviously gets further amplified with every modifier like rain and a potential Tera Water), and the speed advantage Barraskewda has is overkill against everything except Unburden Hawlucha, would be my assumption. It also has a bit more overall bulk, but that is diminshed by the recoil from Wave Crash.

 

[Parpar]

I wanted to make a post about the metagame but I also hate making posts so

As it currently is the metagame is more balanced than it was a month ago. Teambuilding for the most part is more manageable after the rises/bans (rip bodregon) but it could become better. I wanted share some thoughts on mons:

This mon has gotten way better since the bans. Specs and Scarf sets are super good. Amazing coverage. Taunt Knock off utility and work up sets could be looked at more. May be too much looking into the future
Suspect test imo. It has some counterplay. Defensive Mence has started popping up more now and Talonflame still decent as ever. Offensive checks like Gengar. U-turn enables it too much being able to pivot on its checks/counters. Esp since the metagame is more hazard focus than ever and the spinners/defoggers arent that good I feel. CB is probably the best set. Scarf close second. Boots and Booster Energy are underexplored.
Speaking of hazard removal I think these guys stink. Most of the time in a match it's click spin, ???, die more so in Tsaneera case. Brambleghast is probably the best spinner tbh.
Only thing I see as a broken mon. Being a ghost in a no pursuit world is amazing as we came to know last gen. Specs sets are powerful. 50/50s between shadow ball or focus blast on the inc Blissey/Bisharp/Ttar switches or you can even trick. Tspikes is a fun tech option as well.
A little under the radar as a mon but it's pretty ridic paired with tera (fighting mainly). HO or Psychic Terrain teams get insane milage off of this mon clicking shell smash into Shadow ball/Giga Drain or SP/ Tera Blast and its a wrap.
It's.......not good now??? I'm sorry. I feel like it's only real usage came from early meta HO teams that abused Esparthra and even then it wasnt the best but got the job done. I don't know what this mon does anymore. It comes in on gengar and clicks knock a few times, get parting shot off ok ig. Maybe poison touch sets have viability. Swagger MIrror Herb sets are just gimmicky.
Prior posts have already gassed this mon up. Great scarfer. Being able to check rain with Trace. Tera Fairy moonblast is a nuke button.

 

[MasterPlayer]

I think Yawn Water Absorb Vaporeon could just render Floatzel useless since it pretty much completely invalidates that huge Wave Crash and force a switch at the same time, while maybe threaten to use the opponent's Rain as a way to boost your own attack. Alternatively Vaporeon can also safely set up Calm Mind on Floatzel

 

[Estarossa]

It's.......not good now??? I'm sorry. I feel like it's only real usage came from early meta HO teams that abused Esparthra and even then it wasnt the best but got the job done. I don't know what this mon does anymore. It comes in on gengar and clicks knock a few times, get parting shot off ok ig. Maybe poison touch sets have viability. Swagger MIrror Herb sets are just gimmicky.

We just put this thing in Great tier in our viability list so honestly its still considered fairly up there with the best.

It's just really hard to handle safely honestly without being crippled in various ways so it supports a load of stuff well as an offensive support + pivot: knock / gunk shot poisons / poison touch poisons from knock or u-turn / switcheroo black sludge all cause a lot of damage to stuff while its still got its options like low kick for ttar and meh orth, prankster sets are definitely still decent cause prankster parting shot makes it very hard to take advantage of too well and gives you options into speed boosted threats in general while prankster encore still has value into various set up stuff.

Its true that its turns are semi-limited without support outside of coming in on Gengar very well but between other pivoting support and some of ur defensive entry points poison touch sets honestly make so much easy value and really open up a range of threats, be it things like hex gengar, pokemon that appreciate that an unaware quag just got knocked + psned, or pokemon that appreciate a tink that's getting worn down p quick etc. Don't understimate its speed in general either honestly, its faster than so much stuff that its still enormously threatening to them with its movepool.

 

[Melt Gibson]

I'm not sure how I feel about this take that Grafaiai has fallen off, I think Graf is still easily a top 5 mon in the current meta. Prankster with Taunt, Encore, Parting Shot, Toxic, and even the niche Sunny Day or whatever makes it super annoying to deal with. Offensive sets exist too, hell, even Band is viable to an extent. Gunk, Knock, U-Turn, and Low Kick are all great options, with the latter being especially great to get the jump on things like TTar and Bisharp. Swagger Mirror Herb is gimmicky, yes, but still definitely not something you want to deal with. Poison Touch also has some viability due to fishing for poison procs being useful for stallbreaking alongside Taunt.

Also, speaking of Gengar, I feel like Psychic over Sludge Bomb is a very underrated coverage choice, especially with the option of Tera Dark. Catching Grafaiai on a switch or killing it as it tries to Parting Shot out on you is pretty good imo



Gengar @ Choice Specs
Ability: Cursed Body
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Focus Blast
- Psychic
- Trick

 

[pomfpomfpluff]

It's.......not good now??? I'm sorry. I feel like it's only real usage came from early meta HO teams that abused Esparthra and even then it wasnt the best but got the job done. I don't know what this mon does anymore. It comes in on gengar and clicks knock a few times, get parting shot off ok ig. Maybe poison touch sets have viability. Swagger MIrror Herb sets are just gimmicky.

Extremely based and "Fuck Grafai" pilled ideology that, despite not being 100% accurate, still holds some truth to it.

If I'm being real here I've always found it extremely overrated outside of like the early Alpha stage where people were spamming HO and this mon was the big HO counterpick that also acted like a pivot and a knocker. Nowadays though you'd not catch me dead using this mon, especially since I find that customizing it to fit a purpose outside of the niche it already has is pointless because outside of Prankster utility Graf is just a bad pokemon. Even the main set lacks customization because it needs Encore/Knock to fulfill it's main 2 niches and not using U-Turn/Parting Shot on a pivot is dumb, so you're left with one moveslot for customization, which usually goes to Low Kick/Toxic/Gunk Shot/whatever else that cripples walls and/or beats a check

Also I don't give it much credit for checking Gengar since it's easily the most shaky Gengar check in the tier (Focus Blast 2hkos even max HP max Spdef Graf after Black Sludge and it can't even take Sludge Bomb reliably with rocks up). Being capable of using the best mon in the tier for offensive momentum while also playing mindgames is a legitemately good niche to have in this tier, but that's kinda where most of it's utility ends. It loses against every other top tier threat in the metagame and having to choose between being walled by Dark Types or being walled by walls that don't mind taking a weak Knock also stinks.

So in general, while I disagree with the notion that Grafai is a bad pokemon, I still think that it's extremely overrated, especially in the current metagame. Solid top 15 mon.

Speaking of hazard removal I think these guys stink. Most of the time in a match it's click spin, ???, die more so in Tsaneera case. Brambleghast is probably the best spinner tbh.

Yeah if there is one thing I genuinely dislike about SV it's that the lack of Spin/Fog users thanks to neither move being Tutorable or a TM basically forces you to use subpar mons to spin. People genuinely coped about Tatsugiri being usable during the Alpha stages (it's not even that good in RU either lol) and even if you pick a better spinner you're still left with an extremely flawed mon, since outside of Spinning mons like Donphan, Tsareena, Bramble and Forre are just bad all things considered. Brambleghast and Tsareena are both mega frail, which gets them 2hkod by even resisted hits (moreso in Bramble's case) and they also lack the necssary coverage to threaten Spin consistently. Donphan is perphaps the worst Ground Type in the tier ignoring spin since it checks none of the Electric Types, but unlike most other offensive Grounds it's also Slow as balls. Meanwhile Forretress......... we don't talk about Forretress.

Atleast the Foggers are somewhat decent though (said no one ever lol).