np: SV UU Stage 1: Re-Entry (Beta starts now, bye Espathra!)

[Askov]

Quickpost because im too lazy to elaborate much

BAN:

Baxcalibur : Can basically beat any common defensive check with little adaptions (see: tera fire for orthworm/zong for example) and it can get set up opportunities without much difficulty throughout the games

Hydreigon : We all know it from day 1 and teraing into a steel type that alongside being immune to ground, it also turns the tables against its best counters being fairies. While the most common set uses tera and np is subnp tera steel with flash cannon + dark pulse, it can very well drop flash cannon for focus blast (hitting the new drop ttar and bisharp) or flamethrower or even draco. Subnp is probably the one that pushes it over the edge but it can use other sets well like specs, scarf or lo for example.

DO NOT BAN:

Rain as a whole : While it's true that Floatzel and even Barraskewda can muscle through some of rain checks i think that in floatzels case it's not that hard to force it to wave crash and get low to the point where it'll hardly get more than 1 kill if you can limit it and barraskewda is a bit weaker than floatzel spamming wave crash which makes stuff like slowking, tsareena, gastro, etc a decent check. While it's a decently strong archetype atm imo it's not enough to push it over the edge

Gengar : I honestly didnt have trouble with it at all or found it to be broken when using it while i laddered (i laddered a decent amount in the first month) and friendlies. I can see it being a potential problem in the future once the brokens go and the metagame develop further but atm i think it's pretty kept in check through either offensive pressure or enough defensive counterplay like grafaiai, bisharp, ttar, gastro, etc.

KEEP AN EYE ON:

I don't think there's really anything broken aside from the dragons but once the metagame develops more i think we should keep an eye on stuff like hawlucha, polteageist and who knows even sleeper pokes like armarouge.

 

[Amane Misa]

Baxcalibur: ban

Kyurem-B at home that has the best Dragon type move they've ever created. It has the bulk every setup sweeper wish they had that is coupled with with an insanely high Attack stat and a good Speed stat.

It is also very versatile; you could run DD, SD and CB and that's not to mention all the Tera options its got. I have even tested with Chilly Reception Slowking + CB Ice Body. It got a kill every time it came in and also had a pseudo Leftovers.

Hydreigon: ban

Wouldn't had voted ban if Tera was banned but since we live in an era in which Tera is allowed this Pokemon should be banned. Its versatility is something every Pokemon wish they had: it can run Scarf, Specs, AoA, DD and more, but the set that pushes it over the edge is NP + Steel: Steel + Levitate is an attribute that is insanely powerful, it is backed up by a good bulk, Speed tier and SpA, and it turns almost every Pokemon that is supposed to counter it to a setup fodder.

Gengar: do not ban

This Pokemon is obviously very good but it isn't explored enough for me to want to vote to ban it. It has a lot of sets like Scarf, Specs, NP, WoW + Hex, but I'm still not sure what the best set is and if it even pushes it over the edge.

Gengar is definitely On The Radar-worthy but not banworthy for me at the moment.

Rain: do not ban

Rain is very predictable and linear; you're forced to Pelipper, Floatzel/Barraskewda, Kilowattrl, Steel and a Rapid Spin user as your 5 (the last two roles could be compressed into Forretress but meh) and your opponent will know exactly what every Pokemon does.

We also have a lot of tools to counter Rain, like Gastrodon, Tyranitar, Slither Wing, Lokix and more.

Rain is definitely unexplored though, with potential cool options like Golduck and Drednaw, but it is still nowhere near as broken as it was generations ago.

 

[Moutemoute]

Hey, heres what I voted and why.

Baxcalibur : Ban

I already gave my thoughts last week on this Pokémon and nothing has changed since then ; Baxcalibur is too good for the tier. Each one of its sets has a limited amount of checks and people have to rely on ultra-specific ones in order to handle it (and handle is a big word to be fair). Tera Fire is insane to bypass some of its checks (Bronzong, Orthworm.. Forretress.. ? kekw) while Tera Fairy or Steel allow it to setup with more ease. DD sets are insanely threatening and tough to revenge kill because this Pokémon is thicc as hell which means you'll struggle to revenge kill even with priorities and even then it's easy to negate this weakness with either Psychic Terrain support or the aformentionned Tera Steel. Baxcalibur has all the tools it needs to beat the crap of the tier and even things like Tera Fairy Slowbro can struggle vs some DD/SD variants if they switch on a turn of setup. This Pokémon brings nothing but pain to deal with in the tier, every players needs to be overpreped to check it, it's not healthy in a single way.

Hydreigon : Ban

Unfortunately for Hydreigon, it's a way too good abuser of Terastallization and this is what pushes it too far. I have been a hater of this Pokémon since a month as it can setup on so many passives Pokémon. It punishes to an extreme extent things like Quagsire, Gastrodon (and overall most Water-types) while being really hard to handle thanks to Tera Steel. Choice Scarf Hydreigon is also a set people are sleeping on even tho it's able to clean games with ease with Tera Dark. I really like this Pokémon but I don't see a world where it could stay alongside Terastallization being around.

By the way heres a compilation of all the times I cringed about Hydreigon since the release of UU Alpha :

poor council members had to deal with those

Gengar : Do not ban

I'll not say that Gengar is a fine Pokémon in the tier because Choice Specs is really nasty but I still don't think it's enough to warrant a ban yet. I feel like it may be better to wait a bit and see how the metagame adapts to it, especially now that we have Tyranitar which is able to handle pretty much anything from Gengar except a Choice Specs Focus Blast. So yeah, it's not our priority in my opinion but we should keep an eye on it.

Rain : Do not ban

Yes Rain is doing really great in UU but we do have a lot of natural answers to it. Things like Gastrodon, Water Absorb Quagsire, Slowking or Slowbro are good Pokémon and I feel like we don't have to push ourselves in order to check Rain teams. Kilowattrel is dangerous for sure as it tears apart some of aformentionned Pokémon but it's also pretty frail (like most of Rain abusers) which means you can handle it with priorities and the tier is filled by those.

 

[Negative Charge]

Naclstack @ Eviolite
Ability: Purifying Salt
Tera Type: Water / Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Salt Cure
- Protect
- Recover

Very few builds enjoy facing this. It's a very respectable rocker that can 1v1 most hazard removal (barring Tsareena) and chip away at your opponent's team. I think this is a preferable build compared to iron defense body press, which Orthworm does better. Protect is quite nice in UU, there's a ton of choice locked things running around (and first impression) and it complements salt cure perfectly.

 

[YataGarasu]

So after testing for a while as much as I despise Baxcalibur, Hydreigon, and choice other Pokémon. I've found a neat tool for them and a lot of threats in UU is Muk.

Hide

Muk @ Leftovers
Ability: Poison Touch
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 196 HP/252 ATK/60 Def
Adamant Nature
- Curse
- Poison Jab/Gunk Shot
- Drain Punch
- Shadow Sneak
Very standard Curse set. Almost always best as lead to get Curse off early. Can consistently get to +1 and +2. Kind of wish it had Bulk up instead but beggars can't be choosers. Deceptively Muk seems like EQ/psychic bait. Tera not only gives it newfound life but being an unused old toy it catches a lot of people off guard despite being pretty narrow in scope. Even outside of Tera, Shadow sneak can always be a great last ditch effort to spread poison to be a major hinderance to bad match ups. Even in worse case where it gets Will-O'd it can stil chip away while plagues spreading until death.

Most of these match ups you can play mind games starting out pre-tera, baiting Ground moves and then activating tera to survive and KO.

One final note: I forgot to apply the +1 Def boost from Curse in these specific damage calcs.

Hydreigon;

Starting off with my least favorite encounter. Lead Hydreigon is an issue. Draco Meteor after +2 kills. However non-lead Hydreigons have a tougher time dealing with it. At +1 :

+1 252+ Atk Tera Ghost Muk Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 254-300 (78.1 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. So it can not switch in, and although if it goes for NP +2 Draco Meteor kills. Tera steel does not save it, and if it does Tera Steel expecting Poison Jab Shadow Sneak does
+1 252+ Atk Tera Ghost Muk Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Steel Hydreigon: 102-121 (31.3 - 37.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

If it does not tera Hydreigon still takes 11-18% of it's health. It also risks being poisoned. Many go for EP instead of Draco Meteor for miss chance, but tera-Ghosts allows it to only take~50% thus solidifying SS kill. Choice Specs does approx~90% Health withDraco Meteor before tera and can be set up fodder. Scarf gets eaten by Muk for breakfast. Omnomnom.

Baxcalibur:

+1 252+ Atk Tera Ghost Muk Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Baxcalibur: 248-294 (66.8 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If Bax goes for DD/SD It's getting hit hard turn 1. Turn 2 Tera Ghosts finishes it with Shadow Sneak. At +1 Glaive Rush 1HKO's at a ~63% chance. It generally always goes for boost. The only form of Bax that completely creates an issue is tera Ground regardless of set unless it gets poisoned. Roughly only taking 33%~40% health. Which is the one match up that creates an issue. This doesn't factor lead Bax, but it usually isn't so... If it sets up DD though you can go for ~80% damage before being knocked out. SD outside of +1 def you die I'm pretty sure.



Gengar:


+1 252+ Atk Tera Ghost Muk Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 282-332 (108 - 127.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Gengar with specs can OHKO Ghost tera with Shadow Ball, but can not 1HKO standard Muk. If it's NPGar, you do around 72~85% damage per SS. The only thing that can throw this match up is Curse Body RNG/wisp.

Note: In regards to Ghosts, no other ghosts in the tier can really handle Muk pre-Tera, and even Mimikyu at +2 outside of Whisping it loses in match up. Post tera included of course. Even in OU Dragapult and Gholdhengo still take adequate damage from SS. ~40% without tera. Yes Muk no like ghosts. Muk smash. Even FS Shell Smashgeist can not win match up. 2X SS=GG. Also +0 SS still 2HKO's Gengar either way. Wisp is an issue though.

floatzel:

252+ Atk Choice Band Floatzel Wave Crash vs. +1 196 HP / 60 Def Muk in Heavy Rain: 328-387 (82 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Muk Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Floatzel: 298-352 (95.8 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Note: In regard to Kilo, Muk takes max around ~45% From Thunder/Hurricane and outside confusion shenanigans can often T1: Poison Jab and if it doesn't KO T2: SS. The only thing really posing a problem is defensive Pelipper (Non Def investment not so much) but Pelipper doesn't like getting poisoned. Barreskewda + Liquidation, let alone Crunch/PsychicFangs also 1HKO or close to . SS can do moderate damage before death though.

Tyranitar:
CB TTar can not 1HKO outside of ~13% of Crunch on Ghosts Tera. Drain Punch at +1 kills. Non CB TTar can not 1HKO. Though EQ on standard Muk does roughly ~79%-90%.

Some other mentions:
Bisharp + Eviolite loses to +0 Drain Punch. CB Sucker Punch can 1HKO Ghost Muk, but otherwise loses., Gyarados can only 2HKO Muk and Ghost variant can only be easily stopped by niche Crunch/Intimidate variants. Talonflame is a toss up depending on burn-antics. Scream Tail has a ~13% to be 1HKO by Poison Jab, bar tera-water/etc. set up. Non-Def invested Slowbro's risk 2 hit KO, alongside Slowking. MoxieMence is 2HKO by Poison Jab. EQ can not 1HKO Ghost tera. Going for DD it loses out as well as SS + PJ is almost guaranteed to KO without applying poison. Beats Noivern in non-Normal/non-Choice spec match ups. Physical Lucario has heavy odds to lose to Drain Punch, and ghosts tera is immune to priority. Special variants may fare better. Iron thorns on Bug tera is 2HKO, non tera is easier to KO.

Hawlucha even with acrobatics antics has a hard time outside of setting up +2. Indeedee Poison Jab 1HKOs, Poison Jab 1HKO's at a high rate chance Gallade, in Ghost Tera Psycho Cut can't 1HKO. SS in Ghost tera 1HKOs at a ~70% chance. Brute Bonnet is 1HKO by Poison Jab at +0 IIRC. At +0 Crunch/SP can 1HKO Ghost tera. At +1 it can't. Maushold loses to +1 in either form. Pop bomb at +1def can't kill, and bite is like 3HKO/4HKO at +1 def Drain Punch always kills. Non-Wisp Slitherwing loses to Ghost Tera. I don't think EQ kills either IIRC even with CB.

It can also 2HKO Hariyama variants with Poison Jab even with Def/HP investments. Just be weary of Guts variants.

Primary bad match ups: Pelipper (50/50), Barreskewda, Lead Donphan, Fortress is a toss up if you don't just use it for set up bait, Gastrodon if not afflicted with Poison has a decent chance to stall, Hippodown, Iron Juglius checks and often has the advantage. Foul Play Kefki can 1HKO Ghost form even at +0 IIRC. Orthworm takes 30~40% from Drain Punch at +1, sure it can't do much if Ghost tera, but it will get off shed tail. Lead Starraptor BB = Death if not at +1Def. Sandy Shocks easily wins match up, and Quagsire unless posioned can be an issue even with Ghost tera. Tinkaton can 2HKO with Gig Hammer, and can shrug off +1ATK damage. Lokix is 50/50 at +0 Sucker Punch kills Ghost tera. Tauros forms also pose a threat if not poisoned or against bulk up sets.

Loki is another toss up. At +0 DF, Sucker Punch has an over 50% to KO ghost Tera Muk. Bug Tera Loki Leech Life/FI/U-Turn can 2HKO standard Muk, while Poison Jab is at best 2HKO even at +1 ATK.

Toxricity/Revaroom can cause some issues. Haxorus depending on set may be a 50/50, dugtrio with Sucker punch can be an issue. Avalugg outside of poison spread can stall or annoy but can be used as set up for Curse, Flamigo. Lycanroc CB Psychic fangs is an issue for standard Muk, but lead Lycan-Dusk is normally disadvantaged especially after tera. Loses to drain punch but can hit for ~50% of health.

Special note: I did not do damage calcs with Gunk shot, it may turn a lot of the unfavorable matchups or 50/50's to 1HKO's or favorable. But since every time I use it on the ladder I miss two out of three times, I'll stick to Poison Jab. For those with better RNG it'll probably work better to nab those KO's consistently. I also have not used Muk with Life Orb which may be a decent option with Drain Punch recovery. Also don't forget when tera Ghosting not to click Curse did it by accident a few times while early testing it on the ladder. Though it's a great way to force a switch if you know it's going down. Same reason I run leftovers and not Black Sludge due to tera.

Either way this old RUtoy is being heavily overlooked in UU atm. Also it plays well with Orthworm as EQ bait and Shed tail near guarantees +2, Starraptor loves coming in on EQ/GP, and has nice synergy with a slew of choice threat tier mons in UU.

 

[DuGuo]

A new in uu and has been struggling in 1500-1600 elo. Quickpost about my opinion for this tier.
BAN:
Baxcalibur : This guy don't belong here. There are three powerful sets, sd dd or cb. They are all very destructive. It forces people to carry a mon like Orthworm to check it —— yes only check it lol.

quick calcs

252 Atk Tera Fire Baxcalibur Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 324-384 (91.5 - 108.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Tera Fire Baxcalibur Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Orthworm: 158-188 (45.9 - 54.6%) -- 60.2% chance to 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Baxcalibur Glaive Rush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 214-253 (54.3 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tera Fire Baxcalibur Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Bronzong: 186-218 (55 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

With some prediction or time, it can defeat almost all defensive checks.
Suspect:
Hydreigon : A really good mon, almost abused Terastalization Steel to fight against fairy, and the Levitate helped it immune to the weakness of the ground. It's really annoying, but I don't think it should be quick ban. It should be most suitable to give it a suspect.
Unban:
Gengar : To be honest, I've never met a lot of Gengar on the ladder. I can admit that this is the excellent mon of this tier, but it is definitely not ban. Just pay close attention to it, let's adapt to Genga!
Rain as a whole : I haven't thought about it well lol. Rain is terrible, tearing apart all the teams that are not well prepared. But we have too many checks on rain, such as slowbro, Gastrodon, Water Absorb Quagsire and so on. You may need to make many predictions or judgments to win the game against the rain team. But this does not mean that the rain is broken. In fact, every gen's rain is the same.

Thanks for reading and i am just a new in uu! Hope my opinion can play a role.

 

[Lily]

Heya, the votes are in and are as follows:

As a result, Baxcalibur and Hydreigon are banned from SV UU. Tagging Kris or Marty to implement please!

Baxcalibur: Baxcalibur was incredibly threatening from the get-go. Its monstrous bulk combined with its access to moves like Dragon Dance and Swords Dance made checking it long-term borderline impossible, as even the closest things it had to counters such as Orthworm, Slowbro and Bronzong could get worn down quite fast if they weren't careful. Additionally, beating down its counterplay with Tera Blast was a very realistic option that it had; oftentimes Tera Blast is a tough move to justify because of its unreliable coverage, but with Baxcalibur, its STABs were capable of hitting almost everything anyway, so if you didn't need to bust through a Steel-type then you didn't need to click anything else anyway. This was a unanimous vote.

Hydreigon: Sub NP Hydreigon was pretty much capable of shredding anything that wasn't hard offense, and finding reliable counterplay to it was very difficult even in Alpha. Now that we've lost both Pawmot and Azumarill, it shouldn't be much of a surprise to see this guy on the chopping block; there really aren't many Pokemon capable of handling Dark Pulse + Flash Cannon coming off that monstrous SpA stat, and it found way too many opportunities to set up thanks to its amazing typing further complimented by Tera Steel.

We'll be keeping an eye on other elements too - Gengar isn't off the hook just yet! We're going to see how the metagame progresses though, as we feel Gengar, Rain and other threats are decidedly not broken rn. As always, thank you all for your input!! :D

 

[Mossy Sandwich]

This is very nice.


I think this is a big winner from those quickbans, both main resists to its dual stabs are gone and it doesn't have to compete with Hydrei in the NP role, as Mowtom is another mon that can use Tera Steel Nasty Plot with Levitate, just not to the same extent obviously. Heat is also helped out here, but I have hope Mow can make it back to UU in February with this.

 

[StarFalcon555]

not me writing up a post about the slate and my thoughts on what should get banned and the results get posted partway through still gonna share it bc I am a spiteful little gremlin

BAN
wow the pseudo legendary with the same base Attack stat as Mega Lucario, a more spammable Outrage for a signature move, and an immunity to burn is broken in uu!!!! who would have guessed??? seriously bax is silly and needs to go ASAP. one DD and you just blow back almost the entire tier. and the few who don't crumble to its other moveset options, specifically Loaded Dice Icicle Spear or Tera Fire/Fighting Tera Blast. I don't think there's anything more that needs to be said here, please ban this thing.

BAN
remember ss uu and how hydreigon was balanced despite getting nasty plot due to its struggles with beating fairies? enter terastalization. I do like Tera a lot in general but unfortunately it does push some mons over the edge and Hydreigon is the prime example. shedding its weaknesses to Fairy, Bug, and Ice in exchange for resistances is kind of silly, and in combination with Substitute and Lefties, makes it way to easy for drei to set up. and I think there's even more untapped potential for its Teras - stuff like Tera Fire, Ground, even Electric if you wanna get crazy and give it no weaknesses. maybe if action had been taken on Tera in OU this thing could have stayed, but for now it's gotta go.

DO NOT BAN
maybe I'm just bad but I genuinely don't think Gengar is as broken as people are hyping it up to be??? idk it just feels like each set lacks something. Specs and NP need more speed, Scarf needs more breaking power, SubPlot + Black Sludge needs both, all of them need survivability. and we have so many good Dark types like Tyranitar, Bisharp, Iron Jugulis, and ofc Hydreigon that it kind of struggles to get in. I could see it getting worse when the latter gets banned but for now it's totally fine IMO. keep it on the radar just in case tho.

DO NOT BAN
seriously just use gastrodon or quagsire!!!1!! while Rain is definitely good and I've malded against it a few times on ladder, we've got just enough checks against it for it to be fine. of course there's the slimy boyes and the slowtwins, but there's also a good amount of priority that can be used to chip the abusers down. and the best abuser of rain, Floatzel, takes massive recoil every time it kills something with Wave Crash, meaning that it's not gonna last very long. probably still does need to be on the radar though, but if I had to ban anything it would be either Drizzle or Damp Rock (probably the former)

ON THE RADAR
as a treat, I'm finishing this off with a quick list of mons I think could get pretty interesting post slate CM + Weak Armor Armorouge is kinda nutty, especially under Shed Tail, and kind of blasts through the whole tier with STABs, Energy Ball, and Tera Grass. Lucario is VERY crazy with Tera Normal ExtremeSpeed - the presence of Gengar keeps it in check for now but idk how that's going to pan out Salamence is most likely going to take the place of the two broken dragons, with a combination of Bax's DD and Hydreigon's Tera Steel abusage, plus the added benefit of two great abilities in Intimidate and Moxie. would be very interesting to see how it pans out. Slither Wing CB First Impression is nutty and will get even nuttier with our best (honorary) Steel-type leaving, and I've seen some experimentation with things like Bulk Up + Flame Charge and defensive sets, which could shake up its placement in the meta. another mon whose brokenness depends on Gengar's future in the meta so we shall see. Tyranitar is insanely versatile and Tera helps out with it a lot. another pseudo legendary who could be pushed over the edge by Tera, though we have to wait and see what sets and Tera Types end up being the best for it. and finally Staraptor. I don't even have to explain this one but Tera Fighting adds an extra layer to it by giving the UUBL birb the STAB on CC it always dreamed of. probably the least broken of all of these but always a good idea to have an eye on it.

that's all from me! thank you for banning the dragons, really excited to see how the meta continues to grow and shape up!

 

[Velcroc]

Surprised Rain was unanimously DNB. I figured at least someone would budge and ban either the otter or the pelican.

 

[Pabloaram]

What is the general opinion on OrthWorm and Shed Tail in general??

This mon is a amazing as a steel type with utility on hazzard and a good ability. Setting in both WaterGround types of the tier if they run only Ground STAB. Great mon but...
Shed Tail is anoying. He doesn't get multiple like the bike counterpart (ty Arceus) but boy Slow Shed Tail is insane specially under screens.
The presence of terra also doesn't help when your sweeper can set up multiple CM or DD for free..
I think banning the move and not Ortworm is a good idea but all know about specials clause so probably is time to say byebye to our Steel Friend.

 

[Totomon]

Can we go get Hydreigon
No we have Hydreigon at home
Hydreigon at home:

Iron Jugulis @ Air Balloon
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Work Up
- Dark Pulse
- Flash Cannon
- Substitute

Anyways HURRAH! Awesome bans, with these Haxorus is defo a massive winner for this and hopefully rises to UU proper. But with the Hydreigon experience we did learn that steel + levitate is a genuinely scary combo, yall think MowTom or even Mismagius could pull off similar tricks?

 

[DkKoba]

its ~ttars time~to see some usage and establish his place

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

I wonder why nobody is stepping up to ban gengar? Scarf is by far the best late game cleaner by far and it just doesnt seem like much can even stop it and its not like many pokemon can prevent it from spamming shadow ball or are a focus blast away from being one shot or 2 in the case of grafaiai, alo, sp. def tinknaton, and woo chien. Its not like its one set either, you have to prepare for specs and nasty plot both of which are threatening in their own right, specs just demolishes teams that even gave it an opportunity to come in, same problem ... even mons that couldve taken a hit such as tinkaton are getting blown away taking 50 at minimum, and nothing can really switch in, and sub Nasty plot is just taking advantage of pokemon that can attempt to scout such as ttar, woo chien, sp, def slowking, and bisharp, and then setup on them or force them to potentially just get ko'ed by trying to break the sub.

 

[BigFatMantis]

I wonder why nobody is stepping up to ban gengar? Scarf is by far the best late game cleaner by far and it just doesnt seem like much can even stop it and its not like many pokemon can prevent it from spamming shadow ball or are a focus blast away from being one shot or 2 in the case of grafaiai, alo, sp. def tinknaton, and woo chien. Its not like its one set either, you have to prepare for specs and nasty plot both of which are threatening in their own right, specs just demolishes teams that even gave it an opportunity to come in, same problem ... even mons that couldve taken a hit such as tinkaton are getting blown away taking 50 at minimum, and nothing can really switch in, and sub Nasty plot is just taking advantage of pokemon that can attempt to scout such as ttar, woo chien, sp, def slowking, and bisharp, and then setup on them or force them to potentially just get ko'ed by trying to break the sub.

It’s possible people who voted no ban would vote ban after a suspect, there’s just a much higher standard to quick ban. I don’t think it should be banned at all, but if I had to gauge it against Bax and Drei it’s obvious it’s not on that level right now, and given that those other two were dictating how a lot of the tier was built it makes sense to wait and see how it develops now before any other action. There’s things you can do to stop Gengar now and you don’t have to worry about also planning for Bax and Drei at the same time.

Maybe it’s still not ok but makes sense to wait and see for a bit.

 

[Glitchwood High]

Talking about priority in this tier sometimes feels annoying because I don't think a lot of people realize just how many fantastic revenge-killers we have in the current meta. I think part of why Hyper Offense feels so broken is because hardly enough people are opting into these fine mons-so I decided to go through all of them!

Priority in SV UU​

Aqua Jet — :SV/tauros-paldea-water:
On one hand, Aqua Jet has significantly less power when compared a lot of the other priority options in the tier (First Impression, Sucker Punch, Extreme Speed), which can make it feel unreliable at times. On the other hand, Aqua Jet has the completely unique trait of being boosted by Rain, which in combination with all of it's users naturally possessing STAB makes it deceptively strong.

Rain Teams as a whole usually don't click Aqua Jet often: their abusers are usually fast enough to go to town on the opposition. However, it can still prove to be incredible useful, especially when paired up with a Tera: at that point, they can sweep through teams with priority without a stat boost!

Tauros-Paldea-Water has a notable difference: it fits much more into balance teams than it does Rain. It can use bulk up sets in combination with aqua jet to threaten sweeps! In addition, TPW can use Intimidate to survive a lucky hit, retaliate with Close Combat, and then finish them off with aqua jet. It's not as good as the others, but still very useable.

Sets

Barraskewda @ Choice Band
Ability: Swift Swim
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Aqua Jet
- Close Combat
- Liquidation
- Tera Blast

Floatzel @ Choice Band
Ability: Swift Swim
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Aqua Jet
- Wave Crash
- Ice Spinner
- Liquidation

Tauros-Paldea-Water (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 172 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 80 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Aqua Jet
- Bulk Up
- Trailblaze
- Close Combat

Extreme Speed —
Swords Dance Tera Normal go brrr. In terms of sheer sweeping power Lucario is easily the scariest on this list due to ESpeed's huge base power and lack of drawbacks. It's pretty self-explanatory as not only a fantastic revenge-killer but as a H.O. mon. It does have notable weaknesses though: sweeping requires a swords dance boost, which is hard to get between lucario's bad bulk and very mediocre typing. Additionally, acquiring good damage requires a Life Orb (adding to Lucario's fragility) and importantly, a Tera Normal. It's rather high investment for a boom-or-bust Pokemon, but Lucario is still more than worth the trouble.

Da set

Lucario @ Life Orb
Ability: Inner Focus
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Close Combat
- Meteor Mash
- Swords Dance

Shadow Sneak —
In spite of Brambleghast's terrible defensive stats (and yes they are bad: look at floatzel and lucario, which are quite frail), it manages to put up some useful utility due to it's immunity to rapid spin and strength sap (and it's own rapid spin). Fitting Shadow Sneak into it's movepool is rather tough as you give up shadow ball for it (and other options) but it has enough attack to be a decent revenge-killer of sorts.

Mimikyu can be summarized as an alternative to Lucario: what it lacks in sheer breaking power, it makes up for with three immunities and an ability that all but guarantees a swords dance boost! The 6 faster speed is quite helpful versus Lokix, Tinkaton and opposing Lucario, and as far as revenge-killing goes, disguise allows it to click play rough more often (or a boost shadow sneak if need be).

Sets

Mimikyu @ Life Orb
Ability: Disguise
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Sneak
- Play Rough
- Wood Hammer

Brambleghast @ Leftovers
Ability: Wind Rider
Tera Type: Dark / Rock
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Strength Sap
- Shadow Sneak
- Rapid Spin
- Spikes

First Impression —
These two Pokemon have the unequivocal strongest unboosted priority in the whole tier (and they don't have a lot of competition in OU, either)! When equipped with a choice band, Slither Wing's First Impression is a nightmarishly annoying Pokemon to try and switch into: if it's an offensive Pokemon, chances are it's getting slammed no matter what, and if it's defensive you probably still get slammed (and if not, watch out for that Close Combat). The few Pokemon that Slither Wing falters against are beaten by Lokix, which carries less breaking power in exchange for tinted lens ignoring weaknesses, one of the few ways to get around the former's Fimp.

First Impression does have a pretty debilitating drawback though: it can only be used on the first turn. This makes pairing it with band a very high-risk, high-reward option...at least in spirit, because either mon could easily click U-turn and call it a day. Still a pretty noteworthy weakness that if exploited can hurt you more than you hurt them (maybe).

Lots of bugs

Slither Wing @ Choice Band
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly/Adamant Nature
- First Impression
- Earthquake
- Close Combat
- U-turn

Lokix @ Choice Band
Ability: Tinted Lens
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly/Adamant Nature
- U-turn
- First Impression
- Leech Life
- Axe Kick

Sucker Punch —
Bisharp and Brute Bonnet can be really damn annoying to fight against without the right mons, and struggle to achieve much otherwise. While the two of them can't be outright defensive without sacrificing a lot (good luck with defensive Brute Bonnet), their great defensive stats (and bisharp's solid typing) gives them lots of opportunities to come in and smack stuff around, speed tier be damned. Bisharp is a fairly straight-forward swords dance sweeper that's significantly bulkier than mimikyu and lucario combined but has it's sucker punch resisted by a lot of stuff. Brute Bonnet relies a lot less on it's sucker punch to be effective: it's a solid cleanup tool, but BB is much more threatening with Spore. Either way, they're both very solid. Due to their mix of defensiveness, utility and offensive power, they also have a lot of Terastalizing options!

sucker punch your way to victory

Bisharp @ Eviolite
Ability: Defiant
Tera Type: Dark / Bug / Dragon
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD or max attack/max speed
Adamant/Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Sucker Punch
- Iron Head
- Night Slash

Brute Bonnet @ Leftovers
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Dark / Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Sucker Punch
- Close Combat
- Spore
- Synthesis / Seed Bomb

Accelrock —
I made an entire post dedicated to Lycanroc-dusk a few days ago so I'm not gonna repeat myself. But just to summarize things:

Prof. Lupin (Lycanroc-Dusk) @ Life Orb
Ability: Tough Claws
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Accelerock
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- Iron Head / Fire Fang

I have been using this set in virtually every team I make for well over a hundred games now (approaching 150) and I'm pretty solid that this mon is fantastic. Accelrock is solid, tc-boosted, STAB-boosted priority that no team ever has too little of (and I cannot stress how many games have been saved by this and this alone). Even without an adamant boost it makes for a really solid revenge-killer when the opposition's chipped:

Calcs

252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Accelerock vs. -2 0 HP / 0 Def Polteageist: 292-344 (111.8 - 131.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Accelerock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 250-296 (75.5 - 89.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Accelerock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kilowattrel: 312-369 (111 - 131.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Accelerock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 250-296 (75.5 - 89.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Tough Claws Lycanroc-Dusk Accelerock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Floatzel: 165-196 (53 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (almost always kills after it wave crashes a target)

In conclusion gengar is not broken thank you for coming to my ted talk

 

[pomfpomfpluff]

I wonder why nobody is stepping up to ban gengar? Scarf is by far the best late game cleaner by far and it just doesnt seem like much can even stop it and its not like many pokemon can prevent it from spamming shadow ball or are a focus blast away from being one shot or 2 in the case of grafaiai, alo, sp. def tinknaton, and woo chien. Its not like its one set either, you have to prepare for specs and nasty plot both of which are threatening in their own right, specs just demolishes teams that even gave it an opportunity to come in, same problem ... even mons that couldve taken a hit such as tinkaton are getting blown away taking 50 at minimum, and nothing can really switch in, and sub Nasty plot is just taking advantage of pokemon that can attempt to scout such as ttar, woo chien, sp, def slowking, and bisharp, and then setup on them or force them to potentially just get ko'ed by trying to break the sub.

It probably has to do with how the metagame is still relavtively new and the council doesn't want to be too banhappy in case they accidentally missfire and hit a mon that's not broken. Personally I don't think that there's such a thing as being too banhappy, but I'm also not a council member nor have I ever wanted to vote "Do Not Ban" on a suspect test I've attempted to qualify for, so I'm probably not the most qualified person to ask when it comes to that dilemma. Either way it's usually better to restrict quickbans to the obviously busted mons the community isn't divided on rather than mons that the community very clearly is divided on (it's kinda like a 40/60 split based on the posts in this thread alone).

We're definitely going to get some more action at some point in the future, so until then we're just going to have to play the waiting game until the suspect period strikes at a point when the community finally decides that it's sick of Gengar existing in UU (copium).

 

[Lavern]

Hydreigon and Baxcalibur were both really oppressive and had a huge impact this month. With them finally being gone, I thought it'd be a good idea to take a look at the mons that benefit from these bans, as well as those that are hurt by it.

Winners:

/ - These 2 were absolutely destroyed by Sub+NP Hydreigon. Gastrodon had no reliable way of breaking Hydreigon's Substitute. Sure, you could run Surf+Ice Beam Gastrodon, but you'd have to get the tera prediction right. If you Ice Beam and they tera steel, that's a free sub. If you Surf, predicting the tera, and they don't, they not only get a free Substitute, but they also get to play the same mindgame the next turn (which makes this not a 50/50). Earthquake Quag got absolutely walled by Hydreigon, which forced Quag to run Body Press for a while (Bax also had something to do with this). Now Quagsire can just go back to spamming Toxic+EQ, which makes it a lot more viable. It's also now an Unaware Pokemon that doesn't just lose to the strongest setup sweepers.

- Talonflame was really hurt by Baxcalibur being one of the best Pokemon in the tier, but with Bax gone, Talonflame will now return to its former relevance again. It is by far the best Defog user we have, and Flame Body makes it very easy to fit on a team, thanks to it checking Slither Wing, and completely countering the inferior, B rank viable Lokix.

- This thing is going to be really good now. Hydreigon was just better at everything that Jug does, but that never meant that Iron Jug was bad, just that Hydreigon was really, really good. Specs does insane damage, Scarf has an amazing speed tier for a revengekiller, and the offensive pivot set with boots and Knock Off+U-Turn is one of my favorite sets. Try this thing out, cause it's really good.

- This might be one of the best setup sweepers, now that Hydreigon and Bax are gone. Bulky DD Mence is amazing (check my previous post for the set) and it now doesn't have to face competition from Baxcalibur and Hydreigon anymore. Defensive Mence also appreciates those 2 being gone, as Baxcalibur was a huge threat to it, and Hydreigon usually got free Subs vs defensive Mence. Maybe I'm overrating it, but I do believe that Salamence will be really good, and one of the best Pokemon in UU from now on.

- Hax is just a worse Bax, but it'll find its place on screens HO again. I was honestly surprised when this dropped to UU, because Haxorus can actually be really dangerous, and it's probably the best, or one of the best things that you can have on screens. Tera Steel can be really dangerous, and it doesn't have to worry about Quag or Orthworm, thanks to Mold Breaker. Choice Band is also a set that can be dangerous, the issue with that set is that it is really difficult to fit on a team. Haxorus is very underrated atm, but I only expect this Pokemon to get better as time goes on.

- Now that Baxcalibur is gone, Slowbro isn't the superior slowtwin anymore. Slowbro is still a very good physical wall, but most teams will appreciate Slowking's utility with Chilly Reception and Future Sight (please don't use Future Sight Slowbro, that is a horrendous set). It'll be interesting to see how the twins compare to each other. I still think that there is a chance that Slowbro will rise to UU this month, as it is very good at rounding out defensive cores, but it will face tough competition from Slowking again.

- Maybe one of these 2 (or both) will start to become relevant, now that both Hydreigon and Bax are gone, 2 Pokemon which were hard counters to them. If i had to guess I'd say that Rotom-Mow will probably end up being more relevant. Rotom-Heat has been an UU staple in every generation since gen 5, and I think with time it'll return to that. But Electric+Grass is just such good coverage at the moment, and I wouldn't be surprised if Rotom-Mow ended up being more viable as a result. Also, don't actually use this set, but the Rotom-Appliances with Sub+NP and tera steel as a discount Hydreigon just sound extremely funny.

- Yes, the Pokemon that was one of the potential bans just got better. Even if it doesn't seem that important, Scarf Gengar not having to worry about giving Hydreigon a free turn with Shadow Ball anymore is huge. It will be even easier for Gengar to spam Shadow Ball now, and while there are of course still very good switch-ins to Scarf Gengar, it doesn't have to worry about giving any of them a free turn to Sub anymore.

- I don't know if this will see usage again, but Hydreigon and Baxcalibur were both extremely threatening to it, so maybe it'll become more relevant? I'm really just reaching with this one, but it should be more viable now than it was a week ago.

- Tinkaton can fully drop Encore now, which gives it room for Protect/Thunder Wave/Swords Dance. All of these 3 moves are really good, and much better than Encore now. Protect especially is really good. It gives Tinkaton a lot more longevity, and it will be a lot harder to kill from now on.

Losers:

- Slowbro was one of the premier Baxcalibur checks, thanks to it being able to OHKO Bax with Body Press, after the Glaive Rush nerf. Baxcalibur was so strong that it often wasn't worth it to use Slowking instead of Bro. Now it faces huge competition from Slowking, just how it did last month. Not having access to Chilly Reception, and not being a good Future Sight user (I'm serious, stop using this move on Slowbro, it's so bad), really hurt it when comparing it to Slowking. I expect that it will still be good, and I won't be surprised if it makes UU usage this month, as it is able to form some very good defensive cores. It's just going to face more competition from its twin now, which hurts it.

- Unlike Slowbro, this thing was never good. It wasn't even that good at checking Bax, but that was still the reason it was being used. Defensive Rapid Spin users without any recovery are just awful, and not even Volt Switch can safe Forretress. It takes some hits, does nothing, because it is extremely passive, and then dies. It can set hazards, but Donphan just spins on it, and Talonflame should be obvious. Sure, you could tera ghost on Donphan, but why would you waste your tera on the worst Mon on your team? Please stop using this, it is really bad, and RU really needs more spinners.

- I honestly don't know how to feel about this Pokemon. Being able to counter non TB Fire Bax gave it a niche, but like, what does Orthworm do now? A lot of the physical attackers in the tier are fighting types, or they use fighting moves for coverage. It's good against Salamence, which is good, and really good against the B rank viable Lokix, which is decent, but I don't know how good that'll be. Spikes is really good on it, but having no recovery at all really hurts this thing. I also don't think Shed Tail is that good. You most likely only get to use Shed Tail once in the game (even with Sitrus, there is no way you don't take 25% between your first Shed Tail, and your second attempt), and even then, the 2 best abusers of Shed Tail, Baxcalibur and Hydreigon, are gone now. Maybe I'm just underrating this Pokemon, and I'm being way too harsh on it, but even if I am, Baxcalibur's ban definitely hurt its viability.

As much as I hate to admit it, my child got a little bit worse. Don't get me wrong, it's still the 2nd to 3rd best Pokemon in the tier, but Talonflame getting more usage now will hurt it. Hydreigon being gone balances that out a bit, as Choice Band Slither Wing doesn't have to worry about giving Sub+NP Hydreigon a free turn after First Impression anymore. But at the same time, it is also kinda hurt by it, since it was a decent Hydreigon check. Overall, the hit that it took is very small, which is why my child is still the 2nd best Pokemon in the tier, being only behind Gengar in terms of viability.

 

[MaahirMomtaz12]

Wait what is the Glaive Rush nerf

 

[Gary]

Wait what is the Glaive Rush nerf

He's referring to the double damage buff a Pokémon gets vs Bax after being hit by Glaive Rush the following turn.

 

[Negative Charge]

I think wo-chien will eventually drop to RU unless someone discovers some ultra-heat tech for it. The tier is full of fighting types and wasting your tera on snail is just not optimal. It's also a great way to lose to substitute setup sweepers. It plays like a super shitty celesteela and I see 0 niche for it.

 

[SpritePony]

I think wo-chien will eventually drop to RU unless someone discovers some ultra-heat tech for it. The tier is full of fighting types and wasting your tera on snail is just not optimal. It's also a great way to lose to substitute setup sweepers. It plays like a super shitty celesteela and I see 0 niche for it.

Pretty much this. And with both Lokix and Slither Wing in the tier (and Heracross right below), Wo-Chien isn't doing diddly squat. 4x weakness to Bug is just crippling, even without taking First Impression into account.

 

[Pflupf]

DO NOT BAN
seriously just use gastrodon or quagsire!!!1!!

Palafin and Dracovish were never broken, just use Seismitoad.

DO NOT BAN
Floatzel, takes massive recoil every time it kills something with Wave Crash, meaning that it's not gonna last very long.

"Just wait untill it kills 3 of your mons, then it will die to recoil."

 

[Moutemoute]

Palafin and Dracovish were never broken, just use Seismitoad.
"Just wait untill it kills 3 of your mons, then it will die to recoil."

I don't get your message besides being salty. StarFalcon555 is right, both Gastrodon and Quagsire are great answers to Floatzel. They also mentionned that we have a lot of checks to Floatzel which is a part you didn't quote. Since it's not a Pokémon with tons of HPs it will indeed KO itself due to recoil pretty quickly. I quite understand you may dislike how the Pokémon works but as I said yesterday in the thread you made, Floatzel do have a lot of answers, on both the offensive and defensive spectrum.

 

[Pabloaram]

Rain is annoying specially when you rain abuser can terra Grass and blow away both Quad weak mons but outside of this Rain never was a huge problem. There is a ton of room to play around rain like both Quag and Gastro, Brambleghast is also annoying to rain and neither of abuser like the high amount of priority this tier have with both First Impresion and something like EKiller Lucario (???)
I prefer to play against Rain that against Screens or Shed Tail HO