the 3 "brokens" are ape, chi, and tinglu. flutter isnt absurd without chi, and bozo isnt solved yet. i bet bozo is either broken or meh once solved. we should let the playerbase do the solving instead of a second slate mid-dwcop, this stuff takes time. having poffs be completely new with the huge qb changes, and especially so if we dont ban all the "brokens" will be quite bad imo.
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Metagame np: SV DOU Stage 0: Start Over | Flutter Mane, Tatsugiri Quickbanned
- Thread starter Actuarily
- Start date
- Status
Can we remove evasion abilities as well as items if they're not already? It's not seen often but they should be removed for being uncompetitive and entirely luck based. Every Mon with a Veil/Cloak has another ability. No one should have to worry about that 25% garbage
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After playing and building for the first tournaments of Generation 9, my opinions are :
- Palafin is fine.
- Flutter mane is manageable and counterplay exists, mostly thanks to strong priority and Ting Lu.
- Chi-Yu should be suspect tested because banning Flutter would only let another strong special attacker take its place as Chi-yu's teammate, like Iron Bundle.
- Annihilape or Rage Fist need at the very least a suspect test and at most a quickban. It combines absurd bulk, set variety, self-healing and a move that can one-hit KO most of the metagame. Furthermore when fighting Annihilape, guessing wrong between Defiant and Vital Spirit based only on team preview is heavily punishing.
- Commander Dondozo does put a strain on teambuilding by forcing players to run either several strong special attackers, Haze or Trick and leads to polarizing games where you either have the answer or it's a loss. I believe it needs a suspect test but not necessarily a quick ban.
its been said for ages yea should fall under evaision clause but never implemented, now we have chomp a viable abuser bdsp moment
I really do think Flutter Mane is fine, I always build to have solutions to her that aren't straints or unacceptable methods. I think the worst thing to deal with is her boosted Speed but other than that I don't find her grossly overpowered, she's a monster in singles but not here. If you're losing to her it's because your teams are bad and you're not KOing her, she's frail as hell and you can always take her down with a double target
LMAO I WAS THERE AND SO WERE YOU LOOOOOOOOOOOL I know exactly how it feels. It was the worst in BDSP which the mods NEVER fixed but it should just be gone period, doesn't matter about viability
Danza Rojo (Volcarona) (M) @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Flame Body
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 248 HP / 96 Def / 164 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rage Powder
- Fiery Dance
- Bug Buzz
- Tailwind
You guys gotta try this Volc set, it's a strong answer to tons of good Mons rn
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When SV DOU first started, I initially did not see much of a problem with Donbozo/commander. However, it's becoming increasingly clear from the kickoff and DWCOP that the strategy is problematic and needs to be dealt with in some capacity. There are so many different possible sets, three extremely viable Donbozo abilities, and without a dedicated counter to the strategy, your team will play the price most of the time. In the hands of beginners, this pairing is often little more than a gimmick, but in the hands of capable top players, the strategy can overcome even the most well-prepared counters. Hopefully this gets quickbanned in some capacity.
Flutter mane is one of the most annoying and obviously oppressive Pokemon ever created, even without Chi-Yu in my opinion. Ghost Fairy is an incredible typing and its mere presence invalidates so many otherwise good mons (see Roaring Moon). I think this is a pretty obvious ban, its so centralizing and has been on pretty all DWOP teams.
Chi-Yu, the other dominant meta option, is more of a mixed bag in my opinion (at least currently). I do think its on a lower power level than Flutter Mane, but I also think it may need its own suspect test. Even if Flutter Mane gets quick banned, Chi-Yu will probably still remain as a problem by pairing with other strong special attackers. I would also like to point out that there is no way we can allow this mon when home comes out, the influx of strong special attackers like the genies will certainly push this thing over the edge (Lando I + Chi-Yu, LOL).
I can't think of an argument for allowing this in the tier, the bulk up set with rage fist pretty much steals games by itself, not to mention the final gambit mind games.To me, these four are the main problems with the tier currently and action should be at least considered on all of them. I do think that in the absence of these powerful Pokemon, bulky options like Ting-Lu and Garganacl may become overbearing, but we'll have to see.
Yo, it's me again!
+ 
Commander
This combo is insanely dumb. I've seen people call this just a low ladder gimmick, which I also did in my original post here. I can confidently say that everyone who said that is 100% wrong. After it was discovered that phazing moves like Roar, Dragon Tail, and Whirlwind don't work on Dondozo, the counterplay to it has been SEVERELY limited. I do agree that this is a pretty big matchup fish (pun intended) but if you don't have the very specific tools required to deal with it, you literally just lose. Killing it after it boosts is pretty much isn't an option, it has amazing natural bulk that gets even better when you invest in it (which you should). It even gets Rest, so wearing it down with Toxic also aren't going to work consistently. Intimidate and other methods of lowering it's stats are blocked by Clear Amulet and Intimidate specifically is ignored by Oblivious. Clear Smog is blocked by Tera Steel and Amoonguss, the main user of the move is 2HKOd by Earthquake on the switch anyway. Will-O-Wisp is blocked by Water Veil and status is healed by Rest anyway. Even your own boosting Pokemon won't work, as Dondozo can ignore their stat changes with Unaware. The ONLY consistent counterplay to Dondozo is Haze, which you can't seriously expect people to run on every team due to it's limited distribution.
These are all of the viable pokemon that can learn Haze. Only three pokemon. Murkrow is also the only one of the three that can comfortably fit it while also being the most niche out of the three. Palafin can run Haze on a Choice Band set, but it's giving up valuable coverage to run it, and I feel like it's pretty stupid to expect people to resort to running Haze on a Choice Band pokemon just for Dondozo... on every team. Chien Pao is straight up throwing by running this move, it wants all of Ice Spinner Sucker, Punch and Sacred Sword, and Protect is way too valuable for it to give up on non-banded sets. Banded sets can use it but they're extremely uncommon and would prefer to run Throat Chop.
Overall, this is a very dumb combo and I genuinely don't know how people still argue it's not broken. It has extremely limited consistent counterplay, and the consistent counterplay that does exist is so niche that it's very unrealistic to expect people to run it on every team just to beat this one combo. This isn't even going into how the ONE drawback of this gimmick can be worked around by intentionally killing your Tatsugiri as Dondozo enters the field, allowing you to turn the fight into a 2v2 and remove the only drawback of using this gimmick. It's not like it doesn't have results either, it's doing pretty well in DWCOP rn too. PLEASE quickban this shit, fuck this mon.
Annihilape
I've already talked about Annihilape in this post, and while I do believe it's broken, it just hasn't been used enough to be deserving of a quickban imo. Definitely should be suspected however
Everything else on the slate or otherwise potentially banworthy I've already talked about. I kinda just wanted to talk about Dondozo and why it's so broken. Okay bye :3
+ CommanderThis combo is insanely dumb. I've seen people call this just a low ladder gimmick, which I also did in my original post here. I can confidently say that everyone who said that is 100% wrong. After it was discovered that phazing moves like Roar, Dragon Tail, and Whirlwind don't work on Dondozo, the counterplay to it has been SEVERELY limited. I do agree that this is a pretty big matchup fish (pun intended) but if you don't have the very specific tools required to deal with it, you literally just lose. Killing it after it boosts is pretty much isn't an option, it has amazing natural bulk that gets even better when you invest in it (which you should). It even gets Rest, so wearing it down with Toxic also aren't going to work consistently. Intimidate and other methods of lowering it's stats are blocked by Clear Amulet and Intimidate specifically is ignored by Oblivious. Clear Smog is blocked by Tera Steel and Amoonguss, the main user of the move is 2HKOd by Earthquake on the switch anyway. Will-O-Wisp is blocked by Water Veil and status is healed by Rest anyway. Even your own boosting Pokemon won't work, as Dondozo can ignore their stat changes with Unaware. The ONLY consistent counterplay to Dondozo is Haze, which you can't seriously expect people to run on every team due to it's limited distribution.
These are all of the viable pokemon that can learn Haze. Only three pokemon. Murkrow is also the only one of the three that can comfortably fit it while also being the most niche out of the three. Palafin can run Haze on a Choice Band set, but it's giving up valuable coverage to run it, and I feel like it's pretty stupid to expect people to resort to running Haze on a Choice Band pokemon just for Dondozo... on every team. Chien Pao is straight up throwing by running this move, it wants all of Ice Spinner Sucker, Punch and Sacred Sword, and Protect is way too valuable for it to give up on non-banded sets. Banded sets can use it but they're extremely uncommon and would prefer to run Throat Chop.
Overall, this is a very dumb combo and I genuinely don't know how people still argue it's not broken. It has extremely limited consistent counterplay, and the consistent counterplay that does exist is so niche that it's very unrealistic to expect people to run it on every team just to beat this one combo. This isn't even going into how the ONE drawback of this gimmick can be worked around by intentionally killing your Tatsugiri as Dondozo enters the field, allowing you to turn the fight into a 2v2 and remove the only drawback of using this gimmick. It's not like it doesn't have results either, it's doing pretty well in DWCOP rn too. PLEASE quickban this shit, fuck this mon.
AnnihilapeI've already talked about Annihilape in this post, and while I do believe it's broken, it just hasn't been used enough to be deserving of a quickban imo. Definitely should be suspected however
Everything else on the slate or otherwise potentially banworthy I've already talked about. I kinda just wanted to talk about Dondozo and why it's so broken. Okay bye :3
Whether or not I agree aside, that is the logic Smogon uses as a whole for tiering. They want to keep bans as simple as possible, and they don't like to break up a Pokemon's sets for the purposes of bans (e.g. Gorilla Tactics and Zen Mode Darm-G in gen 8 OU). For a well known example, Blaziken was banned in gen 5 OU after it got Speed Boost. Some people wanted to ban Speed Boost on Blaziken because that's what made it broken, but Blaziken was banned instead. The reason is that Speed Boost wasn't overpowered on any other Pokemon at the time, only Blaziken. By the same logic, you can't separate Rage Fist from Anihilape since Primape has the move too but isn't broken with it. I agree it's arbitrary at times, but a line in the sand needs to be drawn somewhere.
Regarding the things up for quickban I wanted to give my thoughts:
Tatsugiri:
My opinion on this has done a 180 since the last slate where we were mostly seeing gimmicky teams using this, with a lvl 1 Tatsugiri and a Flamigo to copy the boosts. Those teams were trying to win with just the Dondozo, and if you stopped the gimmick then you won. I thought that was the limit of it, that it would just be a simple gimmick, a la beat up + justified.
However, since then we’ve seen developments that show how uncompetitive the gimmick is. You can simply plug the two around a decent core of other Pokémon, and when the timing is right (once you’ve weakened/eliminated their counter play) then you double switch into the two. When Dondozo is max bulk with rest talk and Tera Steel to prevent clear smog, the only reliable counterplay is haze. You can try to force it to Tera and then have something that is good against steels come in, but that requires such precise positioning that it’s almost impossible when being played against quality teams that can wear down/eliminate these Pokémon. Alongside this, Tatsugiri boasts a formidable 120 special attack, so a specs or scarf set is viable, meaning that when if you finally defeat Dondozo, there is still the Tatsugiri to be dealt with.
It’s uncompetitive and forces teams to run one of three viable haze mons, which is forcing the meta into a Murkrow offense is the main team you see metagame. This is because Murkrow is the best haze user, and so teams are forced to incorporate it, and then they just build around prankster tailwind. I think with Tatsugiri banned, there will be more teambuilding options available. I’ll be voting ban.
A good replay to showcase what I mean
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1738423975-4svze0uw73e8y8zo49kbfn5d6riv90epw
Flutter Mane
On the other hand, I think Flutter Mane is simply a strong Pokémon, and would be better off if suspected. Flutter has its drawbacks (mainly it’s terrible physical defense) that limit it and sufficient counter play exists. Flutter Manes fall into three categories:
1. Max speed max spa timid booster energy (fast and frail)
2. Bulky but still with booster energy timid (bulky)
3. Modest that either runs a LO/specs or booster energy (hard hitting)
Fast and frail is susceptible to priority attacks, as well as it doesn’t hit unbelievably hard. Bulky hits even less hard, but may survive some attacks. Hard hitting does provide more offense, but isn’t as fast that it outspeeds scarfers, so it requires speed control.
I’ve found through calcing that there is a lot of Pokémon that can be EV’d that either outspeeds the non-speed boosting versions (via its own booster energy or scarf) or lives attacks from the speed boosting version, and can ohko it back. This means that whatever version of Flutter you play, these mons can beat it. Similarly, many strong physical attackers can be assault vested to just take a hit from it and ko it back. This isn’t even considering the prospect of Tera-typing your Pokémon to beat it.
Replays:https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1736999099-cvocgxfn2tppk5psbaxcx48kd4pxsxwpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9doublesou-664285
Tatsugiri:
My opinion on this has done a 180 since the last slate where we were mostly seeing gimmicky teams using this, with a lvl 1 Tatsugiri and a Flamigo to copy the boosts. Those teams were trying to win with just the Dondozo, and if you stopped the gimmick then you won. I thought that was the limit of it, that it would just be a simple gimmick, a la beat up + justified.
However, since then we’ve seen developments that show how uncompetitive the gimmick is. You can simply plug the two around a decent core of other Pokémon, and when the timing is right (once you’ve weakened/eliminated their counter play) then you double switch into the two. When Dondozo is max bulk with rest talk and Tera Steel to prevent clear smog, the only reliable counterplay is haze. You can try to force it to Tera and then have something that is good against steels come in, but that requires such precise positioning that it’s almost impossible when being played against quality teams that can wear down/eliminate these Pokémon. Alongside this, Tatsugiri boasts a formidable 120 special attack, so a specs or scarf set is viable, meaning that when if you finally defeat Dondozo, there is still the Tatsugiri to be dealt with.
It’s uncompetitive and forces teams to run one of three viable haze mons, which is forcing the meta into a Murkrow offense is the main team you see metagame. This is because Murkrow is the best haze user, and so teams are forced to incorporate it, and then they just build around prankster tailwind. I think with Tatsugiri banned, there will be more teambuilding options available. I’ll be voting ban.
A good replay to showcase what I mean
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1738423975-4svze0uw73e8y8zo49kbfn5d6riv90epw
Flutter Mane
On the other hand, I think Flutter Mane is simply a strong Pokémon, and would be better off if suspected. Flutter has its drawbacks (mainly it’s terrible physical defense) that limit it and sufficient counter play exists. Flutter Manes fall into three categories:
1. Max speed max spa timid booster energy (fast and frail)
2. Bulky but still with booster energy timid (bulky)
3. Modest that either runs a LO/specs or booster energy (hard hitting)
Fast and frail is susceptible to priority attacks, as well as it doesn’t hit unbelievably hard. Bulky hits even less hard, but may survive some attacks. Hard hitting does provide more offense, but isn’t as fast that it outspeeds scarfers, so it requires speed control.
I’ve found through calcing that there is a lot of Pokémon that can be EV’d that either outspeeds the non-speed boosting versions (via its own booster energy or scarf) or lives attacks from the speed boosting version, and can ohko it back. This means that whatever version of Flutter you play, these mons can beat it. Similarly, many strong physical attackers can be assault vested to just take a hit from it and ko it back. This isn’t even considering the prospect of Tera-typing your Pokémon to beat it.
Replays:https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-1736999099-cvocgxfn2tppk5psbaxcx48kd4pxsxwpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9doublesou-664285
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- In my honest opinion, we dont need to ban tatsugiri OR commander. We simply need to develop counterplay. It is really that simple. If you're going against it, and they send out tatsu with a toxic orb, you can assume that they're getting ready for a switch-in soon. When that happens, you can setup for dondozo and get amoonguss out. But, let's say, they tera-grass and spore doesnt work. thats called counterplay. Then, you use murkrow haze. Uh-oh- you arent running murkrow! Not to worry, just use a fire type! Know what's wrong with that? Dondozo is a water type, so it runs water moves. Don't worry- I forgot to mention something-! amoonguss has clear smog! If you arent running THAT, you could always use grimmsnarl parting shot. That isnt as popular though, so you could run salt cure! If they are running rest, simply taunt them with your grimmsnarl. Lets recap on every counter to dozo...
- Spore (Counter is Tera-Grass)
- Clear smog (Counter is Tera-Steel)
- Haze
- Fire type (Counter is water move)
- Grimm parting shot (Isnt very effective as haze/smog)
- Salt cure (Takes some time)
- TATSUGIRI COMMANDER DOES NOT NEED A NERF/BAN!
- I played 10 games and only found them once, and easily beat my opponent.
1000% agree on Tatsugiri + Dondozo. I have said it a few times but I really wanna say again that Flutter Mane isn't an unstoppable force. She doesn't get to ever come in for free, she is very frail and needs help with her Speed, she dies to priority spam and to even neutral physical hits, if you TWave her it's all over, she dies when TR is up, she doesn't even stomp on TR cuz Farigiraf is a Normal/Psychic type, Moonblast is her strongest move and it's perfectly easy to stomach it even when boosted, and if you don't have anything that can beat her down on your team (whether it's Tera or not) then you built a bad team that dies to strong special moves and you'll die to Chi-Yu + speed control which does even more damage and it gets to hold an item while getting a free buff to it's damage. Flutter Mane is not a broken force, she's just strong. I think she's a fine presence in the meta and if you can take a hit from her then you can take a hit from damn near any special attacker and that's a terrific benchmark to hit. Flutter Mane is not worthy of a ban nor suspect especially this early in the meta, anyone who is losing to her needs to build better teams that are prepared to handle Mons like her. Your options versus her are plentiful and they help you vs tons of other Mons, it's not this Haze Murkrow vs Dondozo type bullshit. I think when Dondozo is gone things will seem more lax and open in the teambuilder
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Teals
Banned deucer.
I have voiced my thoughts a few times on certain pokemon, but only in passing on ps. After playing around a bit more I have a clearer picture of the state of the metagame.
With the recent news that you can no longer phase these things out, my opinion on them have swayed. I don't find them incredibly broken. When you have a team with appropriate counterplay they pose no real issue. However, they restrict teambuilding immensely. One real viable haze user, and amoonguss is shut down by tera steel. It makes for matches where if appropriate counter play was brought, dondozo will be a sitting duck, but if not, you will get 6-0'd. When new pokemon are added and if terra types ever end up banned, I'd like to see this tested down but in the meantime I think it needs to go.
Strong special attacker. Not broken. Not sure why we're having this discussion. Mon dies to any physical move, tons of strong priority going around, and steel is the best typing and tera typing allows you to make anything steel type. If people want to suspect it go ahead but quick banning would be silly.
This is an interesting one. It's comparable to all of the pokemon with these "Aura esque" abilities. On their own they aren't broken. However it's when you pair them with strong abusers do you start to see the "problem." I'm still of the opinion that these abilities aren't strong enough to warrant banning anything. Again, do a suspect test after wcop but quickbanning would be rash.
With the recent news that you can no longer phase these things out, my opinion on them have swayed. I don't find them incredibly broken. When you have a team with appropriate counterplay they pose no real issue. However, they restrict teambuilding immensely. One real viable haze user, and amoonguss is shut down by tera steel. It makes for matches where if appropriate counter play was brought, dondozo will be a sitting duck, but if not, you will get 6-0'd. When new pokemon are added and if terra types ever end up banned, I'd like to see this tested down but in the meantime I think it needs to go.
Strong special attacker. Not broken. Not sure why we're having this discussion. Mon dies to any physical move, tons of strong priority going around, and steel is the best typing and tera typing allows you to make anything steel type. If people want to suspect it go ahead but quick banning would be silly.
This is an interesting one. It's comparable to all of the pokemon with these "Aura esque" abilities. On their own they aren't broken. However it's when you pair them with strong abusers do you start to see the "problem." I'm still of the opinion that these abilities aren't strong enough to warrant banning anything. Again, do a suspect test after wcop but quickbanning would be rash.
Newcomer to the tier here, but the only issue I see with setting Flutter Mane as a benchmark for special attacks is that the meta could end up becoming focused on living an attack from Flutter Mane (may or may not be paired with Chiyu), opening the door to other threats, similarly to how the early SSOU meta became focused on surviving Dracovish's Fishious Rend, opening previously inexistent issues. I agree that Flutter Mane is a healthy presence and isn't unstoppable, however my only concern is that a meta focused on not getting deleted by Flutter Mane could potentially cause problems in future
I hadn't checked this thread for a few days. I'm gratified that people are beginning to come around re: Donbozo spam. Some good posts on why it is so toxic and not just an easily counterable low ladder gimmick. Hopefully, at least a few others on the DOU Council will join qsns (Council Member of the People™) to send it to the slammer this time.
Re: Flutter Mane, I'd like to reference some recent ladder usage stats (since no one else ever does):
Below are top 5 used mons for SV DOU in November:
|1 | Flutter Mane | 21.76128% | 187332 | 21.761% | 120608 | 21.934% |
| 2 | Torkoal | 19.65209% | 169175 | 19.652% | 111337 | 20.248% |
| 3 | Dondozo | 16.41982% | 141350 | 16.420% | 95434 | 17.356% |
| 4 | Tatsugiri | 16.16449% | 139152 | 16.164% | 86811 | 15.788% |
| 5 | Amoonguss | 15.00041% | 129131 | 15.000% | 86432 | 15.719% |
Just for reference, recent SM DOU usage was around 15.5% for #1 Incin and dropped off below 10% for Lando at #2. I get that there are fewer usable mons in SV at the moment, but just want to show how ever present already FM is. Torkoal exists mostly to power up Protosynthesis users, of whom FM is chief. I think FM is more toxic than Incin, for instance, because its great typing and damage output are combined with ridiculous speed. It is immune to Fake Out and can almost always go first due to its incredible speed, getting a boost from its item, often a Teratype change boost and potentially separately boosting from Torkoal's weather (or keeping a sash to tank a Sucker Punch). It's become a centralizing presence already. I think it should get quickbanned now (which ban could always be revisited later if need be).
There's already also talk about banning Annihilape (It honestly sounds quickbannable to me. I think Houndstone, particularly run with sand as a late game sweeper, presents a similar issue with a ridiculous power up which doesn't lose its boosts on switch out), Chi-Yu, Ting Lu and Palafin. I just think that creates a lot of mess to clean up with suspects (not sure if it would be possible to have players vote on multiple mon/moves in the same suspect, but it would allow for faster Meta cleanup), while there's other stuff out there that may get suspects later on (e.g., terastallization). So getting rid of Bozo (or Commander or Tatsu), FM and hopefully Annihilape via quickban now would be great to clear out some very glaring problems and allow for suspects to be used more productively after that.
Re: Flutter Mane, I'd like to reference some recent ladder usage stats (since no one else ever does):
Below are top 5 used mons for SV DOU in November:
|1 | Flutter Mane | 21.76128% | 187332 | 21.761% | 120608 | 21.934% |
| 2 | Torkoal | 19.65209% | 169175 | 19.652% | 111337 | 20.248% |
| 3 | Dondozo | 16.41982% | 141350 | 16.420% | 95434 | 17.356% |
| 4 | Tatsugiri | 16.16449% | 139152 | 16.164% | 86811 | 15.788% |
| 5 | Amoonguss | 15.00041% | 129131 | 15.000% | 86432 | 15.719% |
Just for reference, recent SM DOU usage was around 15.5% for #1 Incin and dropped off below 10% for Lando at #2. I get that there are fewer usable mons in SV at the moment, but just want to show how ever present already FM is. Torkoal exists mostly to power up Protosynthesis users, of whom FM is chief. I think FM is more toxic than Incin, for instance, because its great typing and damage output are combined with ridiculous speed. It is immune to Fake Out and can almost always go first due to its incredible speed, getting a boost from its item, often a Teratype change boost and potentially separately boosting from Torkoal's weather (or keeping a sash to tank a Sucker Punch). It's become a centralizing presence already. I think it should get quickbanned now (which ban could always be revisited later if need be).
There's already also talk about banning Annihilape (It honestly sounds quickbannable to me. I think Houndstone, particularly run with sand as a late game sweeper, presents a similar issue with a ridiculous power up which doesn't lose its boosts on switch out), Chi-Yu, Ting Lu and Palafin. I just think that creates a lot of mess to clean up with suspects (not sure if it would be possible to have players vote on multiple mon/moves in the same suspect, but it would allow for faster Meta cleanup), while there's other stuff out there that may get suspects later on (e.g., terastallization). So getting rid of Bozo (or Commander or Tatsu), FM and hopefully Annihilape via quickban now would be great to clear out some very glaring problems and allow for suspects to be used more productively after that.
That is not what I meant by benchmark. What i meant is that if your Mon is fat enough to take her on then it's likely a good Mon at taking other and lesser special hits, not that you should always invest to take her on specifically. I calc stuff for Lando-T in older gens to see if a Mon is really gonna need Intimidate or burn support, not cuz I'm fixated on Lando. Being a benchmark means a standard not a necessity
ah i see, my mistake
If you legit always had to make sure every single Mon could take a hit from her or else they're trash then yeah she'd be busted out the ass
To add to the Dondozo + Tatsugiri discussion, especially around tera steel to stop clear smog amoonguss, I think we could also see a rise in tera dark dondozo to avoid prankster hazes from Murkrow (if that's how that prankster interaction works). That fact that you do specifically have to build for it in TB is really frustrating and I think a quickban is probably needed for it. I would preference banning commander as how Dondozo and Tatsugiri play without each other is extremely different. Heck, they might both fall to UU without commander, although I could also see Dondozo staying OU.
The council has completed the third slate of voting, on which they voted only on pokemon that received ban votes in the prior slate.
The result is as follows:
Tatsugiri: 7/7 Ban votes (100.0%)
Flutter Mane: 4/7 Ban votes (57.14%)
As a result, both Tatsugiri and Flutter Mane will be banned. Tagging Kris to implement please. With regards to the currently ongoing policy review thread about Tatsugiri and Dondozo, if the tiering council finds a different element than Tatsugiri to be appropriate, then we will change to banning that element.
This is likely the last quickban slate, we would much rather move forward with suspecting from here on out. So depending on how the metagame shakes out following these bans, we will look for discussion on this thread to see what suspects should follow.
The result is as follows:
Actuarily: Ban.
Nido-Rus: Ban.
Paraplegic: Ban.
qsns: Ban.
SMB: Ban (But if the policy review thread decides Dondozo is the correct element, do not ban).
umbry: Ban.
Yoda2798: Ban.
Nido-Rus: Ban.
Paraplegic: Ban.
qsns: Ban.
SMB: Ban (But if the policy review thread decides Dondozo is the correct element, do not ban).
umbry: Ban.
Yoda2798: Ban.
Actuarily: Do not ban.
Nido-Rus: Ban.
Paraplegic: Ban.
qsns: Ban.
SMB: Do not ban.
umbry: Ban.
Yoda2798: Do not ban.
Nido-Rus: Ban.
Paraplegic: Ban.
qsns: Ban.
SMB: Do not ban.
umbry: Ban.
Yoda2798: Do not ban.
Tatsugiri: 7/7 Ban votes (100.0%)
Flutter Mane: 4/7 Ban votes (57.14%)
As a result, both Tatsugiri and Flutter Mane will be banned. Tagging Kris to implement please. With regards to the currently ongoing policy review thread about Tatsugiri and Dondozo, if the tiering council finds a different element than Tatsugiri to be appropriate, then we will change to banning that element.
This is likely the last quickban slate, we would much rather move forward with suspecting from here on out. So depending on how the metagame shakes out following these bans, we will look for discussion on this thread to see what suspects should follow.
If it is implemented before the ending of the tournament round, players can just play in the doubles ubers format. We have also an active ladder that deserves to be up to date with the latest bans.
Z Strats
Banned deucer.
Yeah guess it is too late now, fair enough
Is there a Suspect Radar for DOU? It'd be nice to see what the council is watching so the community can have productive discussions about elements of the metagame.
Also still waiting for the DUU discussion thread unless I missed its creation somewhere.
Also still waiting for the DUU discussion thread unless I missed its creation somewhere.
Z Strats
Banned deucer.
There is no doubles ubers format
- Status