why is there a bath and body works photo here
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Metagame np: SV DOU Stage 0: Start Over | Flutter Mane, Tatsugiri Quickbanned
- Thread starter Actuarily
- Start date
- Status
One piece of advice I have for newer players is to think of your team as 1 team of 6 pokemon, not 3 teams of 2. You can't rely on always having a specific pair of pokemon on the field at the same time. All 3 pairings you have are decently strong, but how well will they work if they get disrupted? If I KO Iron Hands before Flamigo comes in, how useful is it? If I KO Flamigo early, how much is Espartha contributing? If I stop Trick Room from going up, how much damage is Iron Hands going to do before it gets KO'd (especially because of the self damage from Belly Drum). You have a lot of cool ideas on this team, but it's brittle. If one piece breaks, how can you patch it up mid game?
If you want to sweep with Belly Drum Iron Hands, make a team that supports that idea. You'll probably want another TR setter, an Intimidate user / Ting-Lu to shore up IH's bulk, something fast that can be useful when TR isn't active, and then another damage dealer to sweep under TR. When building a team, ask yourself how you want to win, and then make your team around that.
Z Strats
Banned deucer.
What I think should be on the next slate and how I feel about each thing.
Flutter mane:
The best special attacker in the game this mon has absurd spA, absurd speed and an absurd typing to make it an incredibly strong and restrictive mon. There are a lot of times where I make sure I just put this mon on a team because there's not much team comps that don't want a super strong and fast ghost/fairy type on it. I personally think this mon is banworthy and I also don't think people have really started exploring all the broken options with this mon. A lot of checks/counters to this mon that people talk about are only really checks/counters if they tera and once people play safer with their flutter instead of letting a surprise tera own it half the time this mon should get even stronger. There are drawbacks to Flutter though it can sometimes fail to pick up ohkos and it is very defensively frail so if you aren't careful your opponent can be able to trade with it, as I play with lead flutter a lot I do notice a ohkos it isn't able to pull off and there's a lot of physical attackers in this tier you have to be weary of. These drawbacks do become noticable when you play with a lot of flutter and are the only thing that doesn't make me go this mon is defintely stupidly broken quickban it for sure but I do still think Flutter is super restrictive even with those slight drawbacks as you can pretty easily outplay most of the time. As I've said a standard flutter with 3 attacks protect or choiced flutter is already very strong and restrictive but I also think not enough people are exploring other options on it. With two attacks (sball, gleam) it gets a lot of flexibility in its last moveslot and with CM it is very dumb if it can get boosts. Overall I think this mon is an incredibly strong and restrictive attacker with more flexibility than I think most people realize and is a mon that is mostly kept in check with tera which I don't think "just tera blank" should count as a check.
My opinion: Quickban for dwcop + suspect right after
Chi-yu:
I personally don't think this mon is broken but I've seen people think it is and that it's the true culprit of the super strong chi-yu + flutter core, so if people are saying they want it banned it should be on the slate. Like I said though I don't believe this mon is problematic yes with flutter this mon is very good but I've never seen a chi-yu on its own be too insane it always needs support so I think flutter would be the problem not chi-yu. Unlike chien-pao this mon just doesn't have as many good abusers and it also has a much worse speed stat making it hard to do too much on its own without support. That said specs does some INSANE damage but I don't think I can properly judge this mon without Flutter getting booted first. Overall this mon just seems like a strong mon that I believe only becomes problematic with flutter mane.
My opinion: Do Not Ban
Dondozo/Commander:
Another mon (or in this case ability) where a lot of people have argued for a quickban and while I used to disagree I honestly wouldn't mind seeing Commander go. This mon is so incredibly fishy because if your opponent has the right checks the dondozo can be good for your opponent and bad for you but if you have the right set and your opponent doesn't have the right checks (the only 100% reliable counter for every set being haze) you can basically just auto-win. While I don't think this ability is the strongest thing in the world I do think it requires very little skill to fish with it and it is very restricting in the builder when the only 100% reliable check to omniboost dondozos that can tera are haze. Overall I think this mon while not really good is an uncompetitive mon that does not require too much skill to use and is super restrictive I don't know if it's enough for a ban but I'd certainly consider it and wouldn't mind seeing it go.
My opinion: Suspect
Terastallize:
I don't really like terastallizing there are a lot of times in game where I think the mechanic is dumb but as of right now in doubles ou I think it is a fine mechanic that is not broken enough yet to ban the main gimmick like dynamax was. I do however think we are currently in the honeymoon period of Tera and might potentially find it to be stupid soon. The main problem I currently have with Tera and something I think we will notice more and more are the will they/won't they scenarios of common tera type changes where my super effective move can become a resisted or even move with no effect at any time, I currently don't find it banworthy problematic yet it just means if you're using offense you might run into scenarios where there's gonna be tera mindgames that could majorly swing the game which might be something that grows into a problem. There's also a lot of mons that become significantly better/harder to check and counter with tera available and if too many become a problem we might have to accept that tera is just too much but for now I don't think it's out of control.
My opinion: Do Not Ban but keep an eye out
Annihilape:
This mon is pretty stupid and should probably be quickbanned but unfortunately it's a newly under the radar mon (part of this may be because PS had the rage fist cap at 300 not 350 for a bit) so I don't know if it will. I know qsns will probably post about it with replays later but this mon + the mouse just destroys bulky teams and performs well vs offensive teams too. I wasn't convinced until I played it multiple times vs a couple different people but I would say this mon is quite stupid and while it is a new on the radar thing I really can't see a way of dealing with this mon other than running something super offensive and hoping the apes teammates cant deal with that offense. This mon has insane bulk that it's allowed to invest in because attacking it gives it a 350 BP move, it has ton of viable options and partners and can even be side targeted if you want to give it an immediate boost, you can't even phase it because it keeps the rage fist boosts after being switched out and it can run defiant for intimidate or vital spirit for spore. Tera is what helps push this mon over the edge because it has no problem pressing tera and with tera it gets to basically pick its checks and makes it incredibly difficult to deal with when it keeps a 350 bp stab move but can live something like flutter mane with ease. Overall I think it's way too easy to make this mon too strong and punishing with no real reliable counterplay making it quickban worthy even more than Flutter Mane which at least has some reliable counterplay.
My opinon: Quickban + unban if tera ever gets banned
Flutter mane:
The best special attacker in the game this mon has absurd spA, absurd speed and an absurd typing to make it an incredibly strong and restrictive mon. There are a lot of times where I make sure I just put this mon on a team because there's not much team comps that don't want a super strong and fast ghost/fairy type on it. I personally think this mon is banworthy and I also don't think people have really started exploring all the broken options with this mon. A lot of checks/counters to this mon that people talk about are only really checks/counters if they tera and once people play safer with their flutter instead of letting a surprise tera own it half the time this mon should get even stronger. There are drawbacks to Flutter though it can sometimes fail to pick up ohkos and it is very defensively frail so if you aren't careful your opponent can be able to trade with it, as I play with lead flutter a lot I do notice a ohkos it isn't able to pull off and there's a lot of physical attackers in this tier you have to be weary of. These drawbacks do become noticable when you play with a lot of flutter and are the only thing that doesn't make me go this mon is defintely stupidly broken quickban it for sure but I do still think Flutter is super restrictive even with those slight drawbacks as you can pretty easily outplay most of the time. As I've said a standard flutter with 3 attacks protect or choiced flutter is already very strong and restrictive but I also think not enough people are exploring other options on it. With two attacks (sball, gleam) it gets a lot of flexibility in its last moveslot and with CM it is very dumb if it can get boosts. Overall I think this mon is an incredibly strong and restrictive attacker with more flexibility than I think most people realize and is a mon that is mostly kept in check with tera which I don't think "just tera blank" should count as a check.
My opinion: Quickban for dwcop + suspect right after
Chi-yu:
I personally don't think this mon is broken but I've seen people think it is and that it's the true culprit of the super strong chi-yu + flutter core, so if people are saying they want it banned it should be on the slate. Like I said though I don't believe this mon is problematic yes with flutter this mon is very good but I've never seen a chi-yu on its own be too insane it always needs support so I think flutter would be the problem not chi-yu. Unlike chien-pao this mon just doesn't have as many good abusers and it also has a much worse speed stat making it hard to do too much on its own without support. That said specs does some INSANE damage but I don't think I can properly judge this mon without Flutter getting booted first. Overall this mon just seems like a strong mon that I believe only becomes problematic with flutter mane.
My opinion: Do Not Ban
Dondozo/Commander:
Another mon (or in this case ability) where a lot of people have argued for a quickban and while I used to disagree I honestly wouldn't mind seeing Commander go. This mon is so incredibly fishy because if your opponent has the right checks the dondozo can be good for your opponent and bad for you but if you have the right set and your opponent doesn't have the right checks (the only 100% reliable counter for every set being haze) you can basically just auto-win. While I don't think this ability is the strongest thing in the world I do think it requires very little skill to fish with it and it is very restricting in the builder when the only 100% reliable check to omniboost dondozos that can tera are haze. Overall I think this mon while not really good is an uncompetitive mon that does not require too much skill to use and is super restrictive I don't know if it's enough for a ban but I'd certainly consider it and wouldn't mind seeing it go.
My opinion: Suspect
Terastallize:
I don't really like terastallizing there are a lot of times in game where I think the mechanic is dumb but as of right now in doubles ou I think it is a fine mechanic that is not broken enough yet to ban the main gimmick like dynamax was. I do however think we are currently in the honeymoon period of Tera and might potentially find it to be stupid soon. The main problem I currently have with Tera and something I think we will notice more and more are the will they/won't they scenarios of common tera type changes where my super effective move can become a resisted or even move with no effect at any time, I currently don't find it banworthy problematic yet it just means if you're using offense you might run into scenarios where there's gonna be tera mindgames that could majorly swing the game which might be something that grows into a problem. There's also a lot of mons that become significantly better/harder to check and counter with tera available and if too many become a problem we might have to accept that tera is just too much but for now I don't think it's out of control.
My opinion: Do Not Ban but keep an eye out
Annihilape:
This mon is pretty stupid and should probably be quickbanned but unfortunately it's a newly under the radar mon (part of this may be because PS had the rage fist cap at 300 not 350 for a bit) so I don't know if it will. I know qsns will probably post about it with replays later but this mon + the mouse just destroys bulky teams and performs well vs offensive teams too. I wasn't convinced until I played it multiple times vs a couple different people but I would say this mon is quite stupid and while it is a new on the radar thing I really can't see a way of dealing with this mon other than running something super offensive and hoping the apes teammates cant deal with that offense. This mon has insane bulk that it's allowed to invest in because attacking it gives it a 350 BP move, it has ton of viable options and partners and can even be side targeted if you want to give it an immediate boost, you can't even phase it because it keeps the rage fist boosts after being switched out and it can run defiant for intimidate or vital spirit for spore. Tera is what helps push this mon over the edge because it has no problem pressing tera and with tera it gets to basically pick its checks and makes it incredibly difficult to deal with when it keeps a 350 bp stab move but can live something like flutter mane with ease. Overall I think it's way too easy to make this mon too strong and punishing with no real reliable counterplay making it quickban worthy even more than Flutter Mane which at least has some reliable counterplay.
My opinon: Quickban + unban if tera ever gets banned
Shadowmonstr7
MUDA MUDA MUDA
It's finals week so this will be a brief post and Z Strats summarized everything quite well, but I would like to draw some more attention specifically to dondozo and the commander strategy.
Dondozo certainly isn't a clearly broken tier 1 pokemon like goth, melmetal, or urshifu single strike were in the past. I would argue it's not broken because its good but rather its unhealthy because it is extremely uncompetitive. In the world of DOU set up teams are not a new concept. We've seen everything from beat up to coaching to that weird part of 2020 when volcarona was broken. Never has there been anything quite like this. All it takes to set up is to simply have your dozo and tatsugiri on the field at the same time. It's honestly hard to recall any past strategy which provides such high reward while being this simple to use. In addition to the very small amount of skill required to use this combo, you don't really have to commit too terribly hard to it to make it fit on a team. Just the ridiculous synergy between dozo and tatsugiri is enough, allowing the user to run four good mons in the remaining slots and not having to commit to any unusual support pokemon to aid their sweeper as other setup teams might.
The strain dondozo (especially with tera) causes in the builder is unreasonable. The fact that you cannot roar/whirlwird dozo out is ridiculous and trying to accommodate haze somewhere on your team is just sad. (The next time I see a team with amoongus as its dondozo "check" I will lose my mind). I really don't see any reason to keep this in the tier. Its presence in the builder is unhealthy and its use in battle is uncompetitive. I think its existence hinders the development of a healthy metagame and its best for the tier that it never sees usage in dwcop.
In conclusion I believe the best path forward is Quickban Dondozo for doubles wcop and re-evaluate through a suspect test afterwards (although I really don't imagine people voting to keep it)
Dondozo certainly isn't a clearly broken tier 1 pokemon like goth, melmetal, or urshifu single strike were in the past. I would argue it's not broken because its good but rather its unhealthy because it is extremely uncompetitive. In the world of DOU set up teams are not a new concept. We've seen everything from beat up to coaching to that weird part of 2020 when volcarona was broken. Never has there been anything quite like this. All it takes to set up is to simply have your dozo and tatsugiri on the field at the same time. It's honestly hard to recall any past strategy which provides such high reward while being this simple to use. In addition to the very small amount of skill required to use this combo, you don't really have to commit too terribly hard to it to make it fit on a team. Just the ridiculous synergy between dozo and tatsugiri is enough, allowing the user to run four good mons in the remaining slots and not having to commit to any unusual support pokemon to aid their sweeper as other setup teams might.
The strain dondozo (especially with tera) causes in the builder is unreasonable. The fact that you cannot roar/whirlwird dozo out is ridiculous and trying to accommodate haze somewhere on your team is just sad. (The next time I see a team with amoongus as its dondozo "check" I will lose my mind). I really don't see any reason to keep this in the tier. Its presence in the builder is unhealthy and its use in battle is uncompetitive. I think its existence hinders the development of a healthy metagame and its best for the tier that it never sees usage in dwcop.
In conclusion I believe the best path forward is Quickban Dondozo for doubles wcop and re-evaluate through a suspect test afterwards (although I really don't imagine people voting to keep it)
Isn't there supposed to be a council vote today? Any results from that yet?
Soooooo anything happening in the metagame? Any news from the council? Anybody find something interesting or annoying while playing? Any team ideas anybody has?
How long do I have to wait to double-post? Cause we are at about 19 hours since my last post and nothing has happened.
How long do I have to wait to double-post? Cause we are at about 19 hours since my last post and nothing has happened.
There is an ongoing council vote which will be posted later today
Awesome! Can't wait for the results.
I agree with what others have said, the ideal solution would be to ban Dondozo now and perhaps suspect test it after World Cup. It adds extremely little value to the game (pretty much just a gimmic), while centralizing the metagame around the few checks it has. It's very lame that I need to chose between having a mon with haze or being forced have a really bad match ups against some Dondozo sets and it makes the game much less fun and more match up based.
The DOU Council have completed the second slate of voting. Note that this vote took place after the changeover from Qwello Lee to qsns, and any Pokemon that some people had deemed a problem were included, along with Swagger returning from the first slate, for the sake of thoroughness. The individual votes and results are below:
Swagger: 0/7 Ban votes (0.0%)
Flutter Mane: 3/7 Ban votes (42.9%)
Chi-Yu: 0/7 Ban votes (0.0%)
Annihilape: 0/7 Ban votes (0.0%)
Tatsugiri: 1/7 Ban votes (14.3%)
Palafin: 0/7 Ban votes (0.0%)
As a result, there will be no changes at this time. This doesn't rule out the possibility of any quick bans at a later stage, but I would like to to echo Actuarily's post, and say that we are open to starting suspect tests in the near future, such as for some of the Pokemon which were on the slate. With regards to Annihilape in particular, we wanted to give more time before any action was taken, and look forward to seeing more discussion and replays of it and any other Pokemon (or other element, such as Revival Blessing) throughout the pools stage of DWCOP.
Swagger: Do not ban.
Flutter Mane: Do not ban.
Chi-Yu: Do not ban.
Annihilape: Do not ban.
Tatsugiri: Do not ban.
Palafin: Do not ban.
Flutter Mane: Do not ban.
Chi-Yu: Do not ban.
Annihilape: Do not ban.
Tatsugiri: Do not ban.
Palafin: Do not ban.
Swagger: Do not ban.
Flutter Mane: Ban.
Chi-Yu: Do not ban.
Annihilape: Do not ban.
Tatsugiri: Do not ban.
Palafin: Do not ban.
Flutter Mane: Ban.
Chi-Yu: Do not ban.
Annihilape: Do not ban.
Tatsugiri: Do not ban.
Palafin: Do not ban.
Swagger: Do not ban.
Flutter Mane: Do not ban.
Chi-Yu: Do not ban.
Annihilape: Do not ban.
Tatsugiri: Do not ban.
Palafin: Do not ban.
Flutter Mane: Do not ban.
Chi-Yu: Do not ban.
Annihilape: Do not ban.
Tatsugiri: Do not ban.
Palafin: Do not ban.
Swagger: Do not ban.
Flutter Mane: Ban.
Chi-Yu: Do not ban.
Annihilape: Do not ban.
Tatsugiri: Ban.
Palafin: Do not ban.
Flutter Mane: Ban.
Chi-Yu: Do not ban.
Annihilape: Do not ban.
Tatsugiri: Ban.
Palafin: Do not ban.
Swagger: Do not ban.
Flutter Mane: Do not ban.
Chi-Yu: Do not ban.
Annihilape: Do not ban.
Tatsugiri: Do not ban.
Palafin: Do not ban.
Flutter Mane: Do not ban.
Chi-Yu: Do not ban.
Annihilape: Do not ban.
Tatsugiri: Do not ban.
Palafin: Do not ban.
Swagger: Do not ban.
Flutter Mane: Ban.
Chi-Yu: Do not ban.
Annihilape: Do not ban.
Tatsugiri: Do not ban.
Palafin: Do not ban.
Flutter Mane: Ban.
Chi-Yu: Do not ban.
Annihilape: Do not ban.
Tatsugiri: Do not ban.
Palafin: Do not ban.
Swagger: Do not ban.
Flutter Mane: Do not ban.
Chi-Yu: Do not ban.
Annihilape: Do not ban.
Tatsugiri: Do not ban.
Palafin: Do not ban.
Flutter Mane: Do not ban.
Chi-Yu: Do not ban.
Annihilape: Do not ban.
Tatsugiri: Do not ban.
Palafin: Do not ban.
Swagger: 0/7 Ban votes (0.0%)
Flutter Mane: 3/7 Ban votes (42.9%)
Chi-Yu: 0/7 Ban votes (0.0%)
Annihilape: 0/7 Ban votes (0.0%)
Tatsugiri: 1/7 Ban votes (14.3%)
Palafin: 0/7 Ban votes (0.0%)
As a result, there will be no changes at this time. This doesn't rule out the possibility of any quick bans at a later stage, but I would like to to echo Actuarily's post, and say that we are open to starting suspect tests in the near future, such as for some of the Pokemon which were on the slate. With regards to Annihilape in particular, we wanted to give more time before any action was taken, and look forward to seeing more discussion and replays of it and any other Pokemon (or other element, such as Revival Blessing) throughout the pools stage of DWCOP.
Ah yeah sorry, I should have included a sentence about that in my post. For reasons that have been discussed more extensively already, we're in agreement that Flutter Mane is a problem, primarily because of its fantastic offensive stats and typing making it an overwhelming threat, especially alongside Chi-Yu/sun. The split in votes on Flutter Mane is pretty much down to people who think it should be suspect tested versus those who feel it's so over the top and overbearing that it reaches the threshold where it should just be quick banned directly.
I agree with not quick banning anything on that slate, but look forward to some upcoming suspect tests hopefully:
I do think a Flutter Mane suspect would be nice to have sooner than later. Not much to say that hasn't been said by others but it's probably the most oppressive force when trying to build a team that isn't weak to things.
Doesn't need to be looked at as urgently but I think Commander strats are having an unhealthy influence on meta development by forcing teams to carry some fairly fringe counterplay options. Haze always wins vs this but is a move with fairly limited and fringe distribution. Clear Smog works unless Dozo teras to Steel-type. Other counterplay options exist too but Commander strats fish for matchups that don't have adequate checks and just make for really un-interactive and uninteresting gaming. Recommend suspecting the "Commander" ability, not Dondozo or Tatsuguri the mons at some point after FM is looked at.
Not going to say too much now, but just watch DWCOP and SV Kickoff tour and see what happens in the next couple weeks. Rage Fist is an insane move on a very bulky and viable user.Recommend suspecting "Rage Fist" the move, not Annihilape the mon. edit: my bad, this isn't how tiering policy works I was just ignorant to that so ignore me lol
I think this is fine and doesn't need to be looked at any time soon. Has amazingly good synergy with both Flutter Mane (fire + fairy spread = deadly) and sun teams (fire + sun = deadly). But take Flutter Mane out of the picture and I doubt Chi-Yu is too much of a problem.
Not problematic imo. Good stats but the Zero to Hero mechanic balances it enough I think.
:swagger:
Haven't seen a single soul use Swagger this gen. Maybe in a future timeline where Misty Terrain exists again? But not now.
I do think a Flutter Mane suspect would be nice to have sooner than later. Not much to say that hasn't been said by others but it's probably the most oppressive force when trying to build a team that isn't weak to things.
Doesn't need to be looked at as urgently but I think Commander strats are having an unhealthy influence on meta development by forcing teams to carry some fairly fringe counterplay options. Haze always wins vs this but is a move with fairly limited and fringe distribution. Clear Smog works unless Dozo teras to Steel-type. Other counterplay options exist too but Commander strats fish for matchups that don't have adequate checks and just make for really un-interactive and uninteresting gaming. Recommend suspecting the "Commander" ability, not Dondozo or Tatsuguri the mons at some point after FM is looked at.
Not going to say too much now, but just watch DWCOP and SV Kickoff tour and see what happens in the next couple weeks. Rage Fist is an insane move on a very bulky and viable user.
I think this is fine and doesn't need to be looked at any time soon. Has amazingly good synergy with both Flutter Mane (fire + fairy spread = deadly) and sun teams (fire + sun = deadly). But take Flutter Mane out of the picture and I doubt Chi-Yu is too much of a problem.
Not problematic imo. Good stats but the Zero to Hero mechanic balances it enough I think.
:swagger:
Haven't seen a single soul use Swagger this gen. Maybe in a future timeline where Misty Terrain exists again? But not now.
Last edited:
In my opinion, Glimmora feels very strong, as it can set up a large amount of field hazards very quickly, and not needing to run toxic spikes because of it's toxic debris abillity frees up another move slot for a STAB move, like power gem or sludge bomb. plus, I personally think that it serves as a good counter for some of the stronger physical attackers this generation, Like Baxcalibur and Palafin. This is my current set I would run.
Glimmora @ Leftovers
Ability: Toxic Debris
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Stealth Rock
- Spiky Shield
- Power Gem
I think it fits well as a Point Pokémon, and works great with Pokémon like Arcanine and Cyclizar, who can deal with other strong physical attackers, and glimmora can protect them from other pokemon that tend to counter them.
Glimmora @ Leftovers
Ability: Toxic Debris
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spikes
- Stealth Rock
- Spiky Shield
- Power Gem
I think it fits well as a Point Pokémon, and works great with Pokémon like Arcanine and Cyclizar, who can deal with other strong physical attackers, and glimmora can protect them from other pokemon that tend to counter them.
I haven't had too hard a time checking Flutter Mane through Scizor, Tera types, status, and the way I build my teams. She is strong and her presence in the tier isn't unnoticed, but I don't find her obnoxiously powerful. We are in a doubles meta, she's not always gonna be safe with 1v1 matchups like she is in singles. Once she has a disadvantage to her (priority, status, the right Mon in, Tailwind/Trick Room is up) she's not the giant threat you'd imagine her to be. For my Trick Room setters I often have them set to good defensive Tera types so that they don't get blown up by Shadow Ball, on paper I've been experimenting with Tera Fire Dragapult to bait her, Scizor is stellar at pushing her out (he also punishes what people seem to think is a free Chi-Yu switch with either Bullet Punch or Quick Attack), and I always pack TWave on my non-TR teams. I think she exerts pressure on her own and she's def great but I don't think she's banworthy as is
Donbozo is a huge matchup fish (XD) but I've also been building my teams to whoop his ass with things like max power Lilligant, Tera Grass Torkoal (goat Mon btw), Tera Electric Iron Hands, Sleep Powder isn't too hard to fit on new sun teams, Haze Murkrow isn't a total meme but I don't like using him, and trying to overpower him. I do think that he's a skilless Mon that is brain dead despite how cool the concept is and he does just prey on unprepared teams. There's not that many amazing Grass and Electric types that are sure fire ways to kill him and even then people can just tech his Tera for Dragon which is insanely good with Order Up boosts. He's a big cheat and makes games go down the shitter with his presence. He's not impossible but I think we'd have a cleaner game if Commander was just banned
The issue I have with Dondozo is the cheater method of getting rid of Tatsugiri to play with x2 Dondozo and an actual teammate. I don't know what that'd take to ban but it is an unintended method and we all damn well know that. I do not believe the devs intended for him to be used like this, if anything I see a patch coming that fixes Dondozo so he loses the buffs if Tatsugiri exists the scene. Those teams are not fun to play against, they matchup fish, they're a pain in the ass to deal with, and it doesn't feel like a game to play. These teams hit their skill ceiling immediately, too. Laddering is not good when those teams are around every corner and I do mean EVERY corner, it's constantly there. I can manage to beat them because I'm used to it by now and to be transparent my teams don't suffer huge losses by being prepared, I just think it's a cheater method and unintended way to use Dondozo. I don't know what paragraph ban you'd have to write to get that out of my sight and be less of a headache but it's worth mentioning. I'd just say don't let Tatsugiri hold a Flame Orb, Sticky Barb, Toxic Orb, or any other method of killing itself including Endure. Again, it's not impossible to deal with but this is just a bullshit way of playing and I see it being patched eventually
I haven't fought many Annihilape teams but if enough people think he's an insane Mon then please just ban Rage Fist, don't make the OU mistake of banning Houndstone for a single broken move. Anyone who wants to ban Palafin in doubles is insane, as if switching is an easy chore in doubles. Chi-Yu is e to the epic on his stats and capabilities, he even dodges Prankster thanks to his Dark typing. I fight Chi-Yu with typing and Tera types as saves, I'm not too worried about the epic goldfish
This generation is REALLY fun and I've been head over heels for the new Mons, the sense of balance, and Tera typing. Tera does not ever need to go in doubles, it's been a great addition to teambuilding and to reactive play against strong threats. If they ban Tera in singles, which is something I've been railing against since the day it was brought up, please do not make the same short sighted knee jerk mistake that people are begging for over there. It's been 20 minutes since the games came out, deleting the mechanic that people exaggerate would be ridiculous
Donbozo is a huge matchup fish (XD) but I've also been building my teams to whoop his ass with things like max power Lilligant, Tera Grass Torkoal (goat Mon btw), Tera Electric Iron Hands, Sleep Powder isn't too hard to fit on new sun teams, Haze Murkrow isn't a total meme but I don't like using him, and trying to overpower him. I do think that he's a skilless Mon that is brain dead despite how cool the concept is and he does just prey on unprepared teams. There's not that many amazing Grass and Electric types that are sure fire ways to kill him and even then people can just tech his Tera for Dragon which is insanely good with Order Up boosts. He's a big cheat and makes games go down the shitter with his presence. He's not impossible but I think we'd have a cleaner game if Commander was just banned
The issue I have with Dondozo is the cheater method of getting rid of Tatsugiri to play with x2 Dondozo and an actual teammate. I don't know what that'd take to ban but it is an unintended method and we all damn well know that. I do not believe the devs intended for him to be used like this, if anything I see a patch coming that fixes Dondozo so he loses the buffs if Tatsugiri exists the scene. Those teams are not fun to play against, they matchup fish, they're a pain in the ass to deal with, and it doesn't feel like a game to play. These teams hit their skill ceiling immediately, too. Laddering is not good when those teams are around every corner and I do mean EVERY corner, it's constantly there. I can manage to beat them because I'm used to it by now and to be transparent my teams don't suffer huge losses by being prepared, I just think it's a cheater method and unintended way to use Dondozo. I don't know what paragraph ban you'd have to write to get that out of my sight and be less of a headache but it's worth mentioning. I'd just say don't let Tatsugiri hold a Flame Orb, Sticky Barb, Toxic Orb, or any other method of killing itself including Endure. Again, it's not impossible to deal with but this is just a bullshit way of playing and I see it being patched eventually
I haven't fought many Annihilape teams but if enough people think he's an insane Mon then please just ban Rage Fist, don't make the OU mistake of banning Houndstone for a single broken move. Anyone who wants to ban Palafin in doubles is insane, as if switching is an easy chore in doubles. Chi-Yu is e to the epic on his stats and capabilities, he even dodges Prankster thanks to his Dark typing. I fight Chi-Yu with typing and Tera types as saves, I'm not too worried about the epic goldfish
This generation is REALLY fun and I've been head over heels for the new Mons, the sense of balance, and Tera typing. Tera does not ever need to go in doubles, it's been a great addition to teambuilding and to reactive play against strong threats. If they ban Tera in singles, which is something I've been railing against since the day it was brought up, please do not make the same short sighted knee jerk mistake that people are begging for over there. It's been 20 minutes since the games came out, deleting the mechanic that people exaggerate would be ridiculous
I’m not actually on the council so I don’t technically have any authority behind this, but if the ape is broken, then the ape is broken. We’re not going to cut a move out from a Pokémon just to keep it around, so if Annihilape is deemed broken, then that’s what gets banned—though at this point, after two QB slates and Doubles World Cup currently running, it’s more likely to be a suspect test than a quickban, if we even still think it’s broken in a couple months. (Rage Fist probably isn’t broken on Eviolite Primeape either.)
Dondozo and Tatsugiri may get a different approach because of the unique mechanics; you can check out Memoric’s thread in Policy Review here. We encourage anyone with additional thoughts on Dondozo who cannot post in Policy Review to post here.
Darkrai and Dark Void. Smeargle can't even use it anymore so that argument can't be made. Dark Void was banned for being bullshit, Rage Fist can be done the same way. Singles tiering sucks and so does acting like one choice for a Mon/move will crumble the entire tiering process. Let the monkey stay in, he'll be fine. Even if people don't want to just ban Rage Fist this is doubles and you have to run gimmick sets to get him goin at max power immediately, he can't just max bulk and Chesto Resto as he pleases
Last edited:
The issue with this is that it sets the precedent that every broken mon can be made balanced by removing its move pool. Gen 4 dragons wouldn't be as broken without Draco Meteor, so should they have looked at that instead? It will cause the player base to start looking at EVERY mon and say "what can we do to keep it in the tier?" OU Palafin wouldn't be as broken without its 60BP priority move. Iron Bundle wouldn't be as broken if it lost freeze dry or hydro pump. But they have those moves and were deemed too much. I agree with ArcticBlast and the council that if the cumulative elements lead to the mon being broken, then the mon is broken.
Darkrai and Dark Void is a loose end we should be tying, as the way that ban is set up right now shouldn't be the case. I've been consistently been annoying about it in DOU Discord and have made a post about it in the SM DOU thread here. In an ideal ruleset according to Smogon philosophy, Dark Void being banned instead of Darkrai shouldn't happen, and at the moment we should do something about this so it's not used a precedent. If we ever do anything about Annihilape, it definitely shouldn't be banning Rage Fist (unless we also somehow see that Primeape is busted with it too).
Actually I bet Chesto Rest Annihilape would be playable. I'm not actually a believer in Chesto, but I do think bulky Annihilape is the best thing to set Screens for right now. Here's my core:
This core makes me feel like a crypto shitter because it's all about the APE. Annihilape is a really good thing to defend in the builder; good bulk and unresisted STABs means a specially defensive Bulk Up set is almost strong enough on its own; throw in screens support and Amoonguss and you have an absolute titan on your hands. I went with Tera Water for the Fire resist mostly, but Water's also just a great defensive typing.
I do think this thing is way scarier when you give it support than it can possibly be when you don't. A well protected Annihilape will rampage through teams, but less bulky sets feel very vulnerable. Base 90 puts it under Chi-Yu, not to mention stuff like Flutter and Garchomp, and Ghost/Fighting may have great coverage but the resists are lacking.
also Covert Cloak Amoonguss is insane
Annihilape @ Aguav Berry
Ability: Defiant
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 112 SpD / 144 Spe
Careful Nature
- Protect
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
- Rage Fist
Amoonguss @ Covert Cloak
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 240 HP / 196 Def / 72 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Pollen Puff
- Rage Powder
- Spore
- Clear Smog
Grimmsnarl (M) @ Light Clay
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 132 Def / 120 SpD
Careful Nature
- Spirit Break
- Parting Shot
- Reflect
- Light Screen
Ability: Defiant
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 112 SpD / 144 Spe
Careful Nature
- Protect
- Bulk Up
- Drain Punch
- Rage Fist
Amoonguss @ Covert Cloak
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 240 HP / 196 Def / 72 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
- Pollen Puff
- Rage Powder
- Spore
- Clear Smog
Grimmsnarl (M) @ Light Clay
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 132 Def / 120 SpD
Careful Nature
- Spirit Break
- Parting Shot
- Reflect
- Light Screen
I do think this thing is way scarier when you give it support than it can possibly be when you don't. A well protected Annihilape will rampage through teams, but less bulky sets feel very vulnerable. Base 90 puts it under Chi-Yu, not to mention stuff like Flutter and Garchomp, and Ghost/Fighting may have great coverage but the resists are lacking.
also Covert Cloak Amoonguss is insane
Due to concerns raised on this thread as well as in the doubles discord channel regarding metagame developments, the council has decided to stage one more slate of quickbans, to be completed in the coming days. In this slate we will only vote on elements that have previously received ban votes, so only Flutter Mane and Tatsugiri will be eligible (or whichever element of the Commander Tatsugiri & Dodonzo combo is decided to be proper with respect to Smogon tiering, for which you can follow in this thread).
We look forward to reading discussion on these elements in this thread.
We look forward to reading discussion on these elements in this thread.
I don't really care about Annihilape anymore cuz I don't see myself using him but anyone who posts the strawman about "bro you'll want this next" should edit their posts with something that isn't bullshit like this and infects the discussion of move/complex bans every single time. Anyone who types "ok what if we nerf all Ubers" should be ashamed because it does nothing for the discussion other than dumb it down. I asked about a single signature move on a Mon that isn't nutty without it, not if you can co-opt the idea into a slippery slope. It is dishonest
On a more meta related note, I'm wanting to experiment with AV Gholdengo. He has potential as a bulky pivot with a great typing, insane spread damage, he shuts down Trick Room by either bombing Fairy/Psychic setters or resisting their Psychic STAB or punking Amoonguss or just being fat enough to switch into a variety of Mons. I've found a spread that takes Shadow Ball from Flutter Mane and Flamethrower from Chi-Yu. Tera Water also let's him punk those Mons as well as have a secondary reflexive typing when needed. I haven't tried the set yet but I will pass it around my friends and experiment with it myself soon
Banded Scizor with Bullet Punch and Quick Attack is GWTSABIDSS and is a great pick to skip speed control and snipe more than a few important Mons like Flutter Mane, Chien-Pao, he does 50% to Chi-Yu, beats down Roaring Moon, great vs Trick Room
I also made a video detailing the changes you should try on sun and rain teams via Tera choices
Last edited:
Damn dude, sorry to get you riled up. I see your points and why you're upset, but please do so without making others feel less than themselves. I'm new to interacting with the community and am not a great player, so voicing my issues with bans is still a struggle for me. You do have valid points in your post, but telling me to "be ashamed" does not add to the discussion at all and also makes the discussion worse. When you do that, it makes people more likely to overlook your valid points.
I do need to ask now: why do you think talking about how one move ban leads to other move bans dumbs the whole discussion down? To me, there are a lot of precedents as you see this trickle-down effect in law all the time. For example (without stating an opinion or getting political about it), the overturning of Roe v Wade allowed a lot of states in the US to implement abortion bans that are otherwise unlawful. Besides, in every ban I've followed, it seems like what follows is a common discussion. In the Melmetal suspect that didn't pass in gen 8, there was a lot of talk about "well what about weavile? When Melmetal is gone, that will have to go and there isn't enough time to suspect it before the gen ends."
In the end, this is a game that we play for fun and maybe I'm just thinking too much about it. FFS, I'm comparing Pokemon to law. Smogon is run by volunteers and they do a lot of hard work to make this game as fun and competitive as possible. If they ban Rage fist or suspect it, then that's what they do, but there isn't a precedence to that being the case and it could lead to more action after.
I'm sorry if I come off as trying to demean you but it's just been this way forever and it's really tiring. I'm at work rn and don't have time to give a proper reply but I will talk a bit later when I'm available. Strawmanning is awful and it rears it's ugly head in this topic often. I apologize for making you feel bad
I'm new to the community. I haven't been through the shit some people have. I gotta recognize that as well.
Let's do whatever needs to happen to make gen 9 awesome.
- Status