Metagame np: Stage 1: New Rules (Vivillon quickban post #173)


Hi, the PU council will be voting on whether or not to remove Oricorio (Baile) (The Fire One) from the tier, within the next 24 hours, prior to the first round of the PU Kickoff Tour. We generally agree that this is the most prominent offender out of all of the arguably broken Pokemon we've received. We won't be voting on any other Pokemon yet, and giving them time so that we can see how they develop. Please continue to feel free to voice your opinions on Baile Oricorio, or the metagame as a whole! We would love to hear your input!
To be honest I think it might be too early for any bans to be dropped onto the metagame so far, since most of the Pokemon bans in other metagames were mostly ~a month. We should just let the meta diversify a bit instead of banhammering things early, because that may allow other opportunities for new Pokemon to shine in the tier. Please let me know if I am mistaken, but I think that a suspect test/quickban should not be given around this time.
 

Chloe

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To be honest I think it might be too early for any bans to be dropped onto the metagame so far, since most of the Pokemon bans in other metagames were mostly ~a month. We should just let the meta diversify a bit instead of banhammering things early, because that may allow other opportunities for new Pokemon to shine in the tier. Please let me know if I am mistaken, but I think that a suspect test/quickban should not be given around this time.
Other sections were limited by alpha tiering rules which didn't allow them to ban even extremely overpowered things from their tiers, despite wanting to, for at least a month after their tiers' inceptions. These rules were changed last month hence the disparity in when these bans are being pushed for.

The general consensus seems to be at this point that Oricorio is absurd in the context of our current metagame; there's not much in terms of meta development that can change this really. The main reason behind why we even got it in the first place is that even more broken Oricorio formes were being used in NU during the month of February. If we do somehow think that this ban, if it goes ahead, is not justified later on, then we can absolutely resuspect it back into the tier down the line.
 
To be honest I think it might be too early for any bans to be dropped onto the metagame so far, since most of the Pokemon bans in other metagames were mostly ~a month. We should just let the meta diversify a bit instead of banhammering things early, because that may allow other opportunities for new Pokemon to shine in the tier. Please let me know if I am mistaken, but I think that a suspect test/quickban should not be given around this time.
The problem is that if you dont use ori you are at an immediate disadvantage as having your own ori often prevents your opponent from quiverdancing from fear of getting your boost due to its ability dancer and potentially losing the speed tie. Because there is no unaware wall like quagsire or clodsire you almost have to have your own ori.
 
Well, well, PU is out, and I've never relatively played PU in past gens BUUUUUUT I feel like I am obligated to talk about the tier's greatest threats, what to see, and what's amazing in this tier.

vivillon.png

All I can say is, threat, threat, and threat. Vivillon is the scariest mon in the tier, as its Compound Eyes Quiver Dance is nothing to just scoff at. It can dominate PU, and has very limited checks. A common Tera Type it runs is Tera Ground to break the Electric and Rock types in the tier that thought they could wall it?! Better think twice!

oricorio.png

Oricorio-Baile, I was arguing if this would be higher than Vivillon due to its ability Dancer copying opposing Quiver Dances, but all in all, Vivillon's traits are scarier. Oricorio-Baile has been blessed with the Fire type, an absolutely amazing type in the current PU metagame. It also shares the Flying type which makes it immune to Spikes and can run Boots to be immune to rocks. Quiver Dance makes this thing super broken, and Revelation Dance is basically a stronger version of Tera Blast, as the move depends on the user's primary type (Basically, the first type). It also gets Hurricane, Roost, and Defog, though it usually never runs Defog, due to its role as a sweeper being much better. Though, by the time you read this, Oricorio-Baile is getting a council vote, andwe probably won't have to worry about it anymore.

houndoom.png

Another strong and promiment mon in the tier. Houndoom's Fire/ Dark stab is pretty much unresisted, and not much can stand up to its strong Fire type moves such as Overheat, Fire Blast, and Flamethrower. Houndoom is also blessed with Flash Fire, which grants it a Fire immunity and boosts its Fire type attacks, making it a disgustingly amazing mon. Dark Pulse is another amazing move as well, as Houndoom's second stab option can be hard to go up against. Houndoom can use an amazing Terastallize option in Grass, which neutralizes its big weaknesses. Houndoom can also run a HDB Nasty Plot set, and you have yourself a monster. It also gets decent coverage in Sludge Bomb, Shadow Ball, Solar Beam for Sun teams or even Destiny Bond to be a fast Destiny Bond user. Solid mon in the tier.

That's all I have to say, but if there's anything I missed, don't be afraid to let me know! Remember, these are my personal opinions on what is threatening and what isn't, but as I said, there may be something I missed so let me know!
 
I feel like oricorio probably should be banned but it does seem like making that decision now is a little too soon? IDK, I'm a bad player playing other bad players, but i feel like it's not as unstoppable as people are making it out to be. Don't have any specific numbers to back that up though, i've just been able to stop some with multiple priority attacks or getting a toxic off early and playing defensively, though this might just be because im low enough on the ladder that people fumble situations that ori can get out of
 
Other sections were limited by alpha tiering rules which didn't allow them to ban even extremely overpowered things from their tiers, despite wanting to, for at least a month after their tiers' inceptions. These rules were changed last month hence the disparity in when these bans are being pushed for.

The general consensus seems to be at this point that Oricorio is absurd in the context of our current metagame; there's not much in terms of meta development that can change this really. The main reason behind why we even got it in the first place is that even more broken Oricorio formes were being used in NU during the month of February. If we do somehow think that this ban, if it goes ahead, is not justified later on, then we can absolutely resuspect it back into the tier down the line.
I was wondering if oricorio-fire is getting voted will vivillon be there too?Its already absurd. Oricorio is one of the best checks to it. we will have even less checks to it. So its gonna be the next one[probably] to get banned.
 

Hi, the PU council will be voting on whether or not to remove Oricorio (Baile) (The Fire One) from the tier, within the next 24 hours, prior to the first round of the PU Kickoff Tour. We generally agree that this is the most prominent offender out of all of the arguably broken Pokemon we've received. We won't be voting on any other Pokemon yet, and giving them time so that we can see how they develop. Please continue to feel free to voice your opinions on Baile Oricorio, or the metagame as a whole! We would love to hear your input!
I personally think that Baile oricorio is having a negative impact on how Scarlet and violet PU is played, as fire/flying is extremely good both offensively and defensively, have quiver dance and the dancer ability makes its difficult to out speed and not get KO'd by. And lastly terasilization makes it truly irratating due to its affect on its signature move 'revaltion dance'. In my opinion Baile oricorio is aggressively hurting the PU metagame and should be banned to lead to a better time for everyone.
 
Oricorio-Baile going away just means one less Fire-Type to worry about in the tier, as if Houndoom and Pyroar weren't as problematic as Oricorio-Baile to begin with. The real issue is to prevent them to set QD up, as some have tools to secure that QD will get set up, namely Vivillon with Sleep Powder. Perhaps this is what we should focus on figuring out what works to prevent the status moves to work and immediately take care of the QD users at the same time.
 

Chloe

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As I stated 24 hours ago, we were going to hold a vote on whether to immediately remove Baile Oricorio from the tier. We are permitted to do this as PU is not in an alpha period, following a recent policy review decision. Nonetheless, we only wanted to go ahead with this if we got a unanimous council vote, due to it being so early in the tier's lifespan.



Baile Oricorio has been quickbanned from SV PU.

Tagging Kris & Marty to implement please!

Baile Oricorio's presence in the tier has, to put it extremely lightly, been felt over the duration of the tier so far. Its ability to Quiver Dance with extreme ease, and sweep through the vast majority of the tier with its STABs alone cannot be understated. Quiver Dance as a whole is an invaluable move in tiers such as these due to the lower power level, but Oricorio especially has incredible tools that the others do not possess. Its STAB combination is only really walled by Rock-types, where we only have a couple viable ones. These Pokemon however, are not enough to wall Oricorio.

Where Oricorio becomes overwhelmingly broken is its ability to terastallize and change its primary STAB to any type it pleases. This allows it to get around the already limited list of checks it has, and take the game. This is arguably broken on a fundamental level, usually Pokemon are held back by either accounting for their Tera Type with slots in their movepool; however, Oricorio doesn't have to worry about that as Revelation Dance changes type following terastallization. Notably, Ground-type Terastal options have proven already to be unwallable, as its best defensive answers require mounds of prediction and generally two teamslots in order to adequately check typewise. Oricorio is sufficiently powerful following a single Quiver Dance however, thus this rarely matters anyway. It can and does also use alternate Tera Types to circumvent this issue, such as Water, Fighting or Steel.

Its unfortunate that its ban comes with the loss of one of our two Defog options; however, this unfortunately is not justification to keep it around in the tier.

Why now?
The PU Council unanimously agrees that Oricorio is extremely unhealthy for the tier, and that even with substantial meta development, this will be unaffected. We want to see the metagame develop properly without this overbearing threat, that in our collective opinion, has no chance of being balanced in the metagame we have. We want to see other threats develop, and how the decision of Baile Oricorio leaving affects the tier. Will other Quiver Dance users feel as potent without having to account for Baile Oricorio in the builder? Will Pa'u Oricorio also prove broken? These are important questions that must be answered as time goes on.

We're also going to see a lot of examples of the PU format in action as our PU Kickoff tournament commences later today. We know Baile Oricorio is broken, but what about our remaining threats? I'm extremely interested to see how they develop in a post Baile Oricorio metagame.

Why not remove Vivillon or Oricorio-Pa'u or whatever else?
We wanted to avoid quickbanning anything this early on given it's only been just under a week; however, Baile Oricorio has felt incredibly oppressive beyond any other threat. It's the only Pokemon the council has unanimously agreed upon being absolutely definitely broken, and we can't see it improving as time goes on. We also want to see how Pa'u Oricorio develops without Baile overshadowing it, so that we can have an adequate measure of just how good it is, after a few rounds of the PU Kickoff tournament.

Why not ban Quiver Dance?
Quiver Dance would have to be unjustifiably broken on every Pokemon that gets it, in order to ban it. As I said, we wanted to avoid other bans this early on as we really do believe meta development is important prior to our first proper slate. It would also require a thread in policy review, which would end up taking a while. It's also just a messy ban which, in my opinion, is not remotely warranted; however, if we do want to tackle that obstacle down the road we can always address it then.

Will we have a chance to reintroduce it to the tier, once the metagame settles?
Yes. If the demand is there, or if metagame shifts severely hinder Oricorio, we can absolutely hold a re-suspect test down the line.

~

Thank you for reading, and I look forward to seeing the metagame develop as the tier's lifespan continues.
 

As I stated 24 hours ago, we were going to hold a vote on whether to immediately remove Baile Oricorio from the tier. We are permitted to do this as PU is not in an alpha period, following a recent policy review decision. Nonetheless, we only wanted to go ahead with this if we got a unanimous council vote, due to it being so early in the tier's lifespan.



Baile Oricorio has been quickbanned from SV PU.

Tagging Kris & Marty to implement please!

Baile Oricorio's presence in the tier has, to put it extremely lightly, been felt over the duration of the tier so far. Its ability to Quiver Dance with extreme ease, and sweep through the vast majority of the tier with its STABs alone cannot be understated. Quiver Dance as a whole is an invaluable move in tiers such as these due to the lower power level, but Oricorio especially has incredible tools that the others do not possess. Its STAB combination is only really walled by Rock-types, where we only have a couple viable ones. These Pokemon however, are not enough to wall Oricorio.

Where Oricorio becomes overwhelmingly broken is its ability to terastallize and change its primary STAB to any type it pleases. This allows it to get around the already limited list of checks it has, and take the game. This is arguably broken on a fundamental level, usually Pokemon are held back by either accounting for their Tera Type with slots in their movepool; however, Oricorio doesn't have to worry about that as Revelation Dance changes type following terastallization. Notably, Ground-type Terastal options have proven already to be unwallable, as its best defensive answers require mounds of prediction and generally two teamslots in order to adequately check typewise. Oricorio is sufficiently powerful following a single Quiver Dance however, thus this rarely matters anyway. It can and does also use alternate Tera Types to circumvent this issue, such as Water, Fighting or Steel.

Its unfortunate that its ban comes with the loss of one of our two Defog options; however, this unfortunately is not justification to keep it around in the tier.

Why now?
The PU Council unanimously agrees that Oricorio is extremely unhealthy for the tier, and that even with substantial meta development, this will be unaffected. We want to see the metagame develop properly without this overbearing threat, that in our collective opinion, has no chance of being balanced in the metagame we have. We want to see other threats develop, and how the decision of Baile Oricorio leaving affects the tier. Will other Quiver Dance users feel as potent without having to account for Baile Oricorio in the builder? Will Pa'u Oricorio also prove broken? These are important questions that must be answered as time goes on.

We're also going to see a lot of examples of the PU format in action as our PU Kickoff tournament commences later today. We know Baile Oricorio is broken, but what about our remaining threats? I'm extremely interested to see how they develop in a post Baile Oricorio metagame.

Why not remove Vivillon or Oricorio-Pa'u or whatever else?
We wanted to avoid quickbanning anything this early on given it's only been just under a week; however, Baile Oricorio has felt incredibly oppressive beyond any other threat. It's the only Pokemon the council has unanimously agreed upon being absolutely definitely broken, and we can't see it improving as time goes on. We also want to see how Pa'u Oricorio develops without Baile overshadowing it, so that we can have an adequate measure of just how good it is, after a few rounds of the PU Kickoff tournament.

Why not ban Quiver Dance?
Quiver Dance would have to be unjustifiably broken on every Pokemon that gets it, in order to ban it. As I said, we wanted to avoid other bans this early on as we really do believe meta development is important prior to our first proper slate. It would also require a thread in policy review, which would end up taking a while. It's also just a messy ban which, in my opinion, is not remotely warranted; however, if we do want to tackle that obstacle down the road we can always address it then.

Will we have a chance to reintroduce it to the tier, once the metagame settles?
Yes. If the demand is there, or if metagame shifts severely hinder Oricorio, we can absolutely hold a re-suspect test down the line.

~

Thank you for reading, and I look forward to seeing the metagame develop as the tier's lifespan continues.
YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO, Finally an overbearing threat is gone from the tier, all that remains is Vivillon
 
Given Oricorio-B has already been banned, and both Oricorio-H and Vivillion are not long for this tier, and the hazard removal options are poor outside of them, we are soon going to live in a world where this thing:

:kricketune:

is a solid pokemon in a tier, by virtue of being the best Sticky Webber left. I genuinely never thought I'd live to see this day.
 
Been having some fun with Slaking and Oinkologne-Male, the combo isn't as good without Retaliation (and imagine iof we still had Pursuit) but I think it's a neat gimmick.

:sv/slaking:
Slaking @ Assault Vest
Ability: Truant
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Mega Kick
- Fire Punch
- Earthquake
- Play Rough
:sv/oinkologne:
Oinkologne @ Eject Button
Ability: Lingering Aroma
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Impish Nature
- Body Slam
- Body Press
- Rest
- Endure

Oink's set can be replaced with pretty much anything I think as long as it has Lingering Aroma and Eject Button still. The idea is to force a contact attack on Oink, then eject to Slaking and either get rid of your Truant ability and become a huge threat or force a switch and get a free attack. I considered replacing Mega Kick with Body Slam, but there are so many bulky counters to him that I think the better-than-Focus Blast chances are good enough. Slaking is fire type to prevent burns and because fire is such a good typing in this tier. Play Rough is primarily to deal with the Fighting Tera Types I keep running into. Endure on Oink will give you at least 2 switches into Slaking (button and death), also decent for scouting moves if you need a sack.
 
What are we doing about Crabominable? Idk if there are any checks except Quaxwell which gets 2 OHKO'd by Thunder Punch anyway and Brave Bird is a 2 OHKO on Crab
 
The only good hazard removal we have is Quaxwell, Carkol, and Delibirb for rapid spin, Oricorio-Pa'u for defog, and Hattrem for magic bounce.
We definitely need more options
 

R8

Leads Natdex Other Tiers, not rly doing ndou stuff
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What are we doing about Crabominable? Idk if there are any checks except Quaxwell which gets 2 OHKO'd by Thunder Punch anyway and Brave Bird is a 2 OHKO on Crab
Grumpig is a better check to it, as it resists both stabs thanks to thick fat, though it can be annoyed by tera-elec t-punch which also makes the crab neutral to psychic.

to be honest though I personally expect crab and vivillon to be banned eventually as well, but oricorio barely had any kind of real counterplay lol so I'm not surprised it was the first to be nuked
 
:sv/squawkabilly: :sv/flapple:
Squawkabilly @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Hustle
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Double-Edge
- Brave Bird
- U-turn
- Quick Attack

Flapple @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Hustle
Tera Type: Dragon / Ground
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Outrage
- U-turn
- Grav Apple
- Sucker Punch / Tera Blast

Incredibly stupid flappy core I've been using, with some potentially concerning mons. Simple stuff, our steel types are sparse and easy to wear down and everything else is 1hko'd by 120bp Hustle STABs. Squawk sits at a good speed tier with a very spammable Brave Bird, Flapple is slower and stronger so you may as well run adamant as the only stuff that outspeeds - Dug, Wug and Electrode - can't touch you. Outrage isn't as spammable due to the lock in but no recoil makes it safer to clean up with. Both have U-turn to wear down checks but tbh you need very little wear to just start breaking through teams immediately:

252+ Atk Hustle Flapple Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Magneton: 100-118 (41.4 - 48.9%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Maybe you'll miss with one of them, but then you have another mon with effective 180bp nukes to try again with in the back! Both even have prio for weather team insurance. Super silly and the answer is basically to pray for a miss at the right time.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9pu-1814675197 - vs Sun, utilising dual prio

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9pu-1814761492 - Vs Sun again, wearing down a Magneton together

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9pu-1814704524 - breaking through a Tinkatuff

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9pu-1814773770 - Flapple breaking through a +2 goat and sweeping (scarf crab was a strange choice ngl but I have limited replay choice here...)


:sv/girafarig:
Girafarig @ Eviolite
Ability: Early Bird
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 HP / 160 Def / 96 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Rest
- Tera Blast
- Psyshock

Fun and annoying wincon, Early Bird gives this thing super strong 2-turn recovery that heals status, letting you live 3hkos unlike normal rest and making it very hard to exploit your sleep turns. Extra funny is that you can immediately wake up from sleep to troll Vivillon and Lilligant, filling the same effective purpose as Sap Sipper. Tera Blast STAB is as cool as ever, tera Electric gives you a good matchup vs our QD mons and the Steel types that resist your STABs otherwise and cuts you down to one weakness, while psyshock beats opposing QD/CM. Stored Power is overkill since it's not like we have Unaware here and the immediate power to threaten the likes of Haunter is too good to give up.



Doesn't really matter but if it gives me even a smidgen of clout I hit #1 on ladder with these mons!

 
The only good hazard removal we have is Quaxwell, Carkol, and Delibirb for rapid spin, Oricorio-Pa'u for defog, and Hattrem for magic bounce.
We definitely need more options
There's Fletchinder

Fletchinder @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Gale Wings
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Defog
- Brave Bird
- Roost
- U-turn
 
The only good hazard removal we have is Quaxwell, Carkol, and Delibirb for rapid spin, Oricorio-Pa'u for defog, and Hattrem for magic bounce.
We definitely need more options

There's Fletchinder

Fletchinder @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Gale Wings
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Defog
- Brave Bird
- Roost
- U-turn

Among the spinners, Toedscool :toedscool: is usable too, because at least it has amazing support moves like Spore and Knock Off.
Moreover it can be annoying with Leech Seed and Spikes. Definitely better than Delibird :delibird:
 
Fun Fact: The only gen 9 fully evolved mons in PU are Scovillain, Oinkologne, Squawkabilly, Rabsca, and Wugtrio.

also I’m so excited for Kricketune to be the only sticky web setter that’ll be so funny
Have taken note of this and will keep it in mind for our PU kickoff tournament match
 
Whilst I'm not the most educated PU gamer I wasn't seeing lots of sun on ladder for some reason but with oricorio banned I feel like we're gonna see more chlorophyll users Like Sawsbuck, scovillian lilligant and see more sticky webs with kricketune aswell
 

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