★ np: SS UU Stage 11 - Boom Clap

[Lily]

​

Hey all, we're running a suspect test for the 50000th time this generation. This time Thundurus-Therian is on the chopping block.

Let me preface by saying that a majority of the council does not feel that Thundurus-T is broken or unhealthy in its current state; while we were 7-5 in favour of a suspect test, most of the 7 that voted in favour feel it is correct to do this for the community's sake and would still vote Do Not Ban if they were to qualify. With that said, a (small) majority of people wanted this test and we felt it'd be wrong to continue ignoring it, so here we go.

Thundurus-T has been a hot topic for a long time at this point. It's got phenomenal stats; 145 Special Attack is by far the highest in the tier and Thundy puts it to good use with its great STAB and strong coverage that lets it power through Pokemon that'd otherwise check its Electric moves like Amoonguss, Zarude and Excadrill. While its standard pivot set of Volt Switch, Knock Off, Psychic and Focus Blast is very lethal on its own, it also has extra coverage in its pretty deep movepool, being able to pull out Grass Knot to obliterate Swampert or even Sludge Wave to blow up Tangrowth and Tapu Bulu. Scouting its set can be so daunting that by the time you've figured out what it's running, it's often done its job already.

It also has its ever-lethal Nasty Plot set - while it hasn't been seen often recently, Nasty Plot Thundurus-T is one of the main reasons balances don't thrive much in the current metagame. Simply put, this set does not have any defensive counters - while Pokemon like Nihilego, Chansey, Assault Vest Tangrowth and Tapu Bulu can keep it in check temporarily, they're just hit way too hard by its moves to truly call themselves answers. This has been cited as a reason to call Thundurus-T a highly restrictive builder threat.

With all that said, Thundurus-T is no unstoppable force. The current metagame has trended in the direction of varying Ground-types like Swampert and Excadrill, meaning Thundurus-T can often have trouble picking its coverage. The rise of Pokemon like Mamoswine and Nihilego hasn't been doing it many favours, and the ever-dominant Zarude is still around to revenge kill it after some chip damage. Recent developments including Pokemon like Salazzle, Stone Edge Cobalion and Azelf also serve to keep Thundurus from being a rampaging killing machine. It still shines against balance, though, and giving it a free turn against offense can often spell doom for the frail teams that don't take its Volt Switches too well.

So there it is! The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. As always, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE is fine.

minimum games needed

GXE	minimum games
80	50
80.2	49
80.4	48
80.6	47
80.8	46
81	45
81.2	44
81.4	43
81.6	42
81.8	41
82	40
82.2	39
82.4	38
82.6	37
82.8	36
83	35
83.2	34
83.4	33
83.6	32
83.8	31
84	30

Other than that, the test will operate as always. There will be no suspect ladder. Instead, the standard UU ladder will remain open. Those who wish to participate in this suspect test will instead use a fresh, suspect-specific alt. All games must be played on the Pokemon Showdown! UU ladder on a fresh alt with the following format: "UU11T (Nick)." For example, I might register the alt UU11T Lily to ladder with. You must meet the listed format in order to qualify.

Participants will have until Sunday, January 23rd at 7:00 PM GMT -5 to meet voting requirements and post in the Alt Identification Thread. PLEASE DO NOT POST YOUR CONFIRMED SUSPECT RESULTS HERE - there is a dedicated thread for identifying your suspect results. Happy laddering!

Current UU Council

Adaam
Amane Misa
Askov
Indigo Plateau
KM
Lily
LNumbers
Lyss
Monky25
Moutemoute
pokemonisfun
TSR

 

[pokemonisfun]

I sent this in with my vote on why Thundurus should be tested, it's a process post and doesn't have much to do with substance of the metagame

I preface by saying I am firmly against a Thundurus-T ban right now based on the substance of the metagame - there is simply sufficient counter play against it when targeting it's only above average speed tier, mediocre bulk, and only above average initial power.

But these are two separate questions: 1) whether something should be banned and 2) whether the public should be given an opportunity to directly vote.

We are clearly asking 2), not 1).

Although a majority of the past two surveys (over 70% last year and at just about 51% this year) wanted to suspect Thundurus, this is not the only reason I am voting to give a public test. I firmly believe in general, the council knows better than the public because we are composed of very strong and even more importantly, very active players who have a general sense of how to build in the metagame and what changes are occurring in the metagame. For example, even if there are a 60 or 70% vote to ask for a public suspect on Primarina - one of our top Pokemon - I would likely still vote against giving it a public test.

What's the difference between the hypothetical Primarina and the actual Thundurus-T?

Two things.

1) I do not think a reasonable analysis of our metagame can conclude that Primarina is hypothetically broken, but it could conclude that Thundurus-T is broken.

2) I believe banning a hypothetical Primarina could damage the metagame, Thundurus-T wouldn't.

Regarding the first point, although I believe Thundurus is not broken, I think there are at least reasonable/logical arguments you can make to say it's broken. It legitimately has no comfortable counter in UU - yes technically Nihilego can always switch in and OHKO it given standard sets, but it can easily get Volt Switched on and hates losing item due to Knock Off (and if it's Power Herb, Knock Off + Psychic can let Thundurus win). Given Thundurus' extremely wide movepool and ability to defeat most of its checks, I can see an argument coming from how much pressure and momentum it can generate.

I believe this first point, combined with two surveys in a row with a majority asking for Thundurus to be suspected, is enough to vote for a test.

In addition though, there is the second point - can the public vote damage the metagame?

According to my understanding of Smogon tiering philosophy, one should actually not look at metagame effects when deciding to vote on a suspect. If it actually makes the metagame worse, so be it - we will deal with the worse metagame later and continue the tiering process. The only major factor one should look at when voting on a suspect is if a Pokemon is broken or unhealthy.

Superficially, it seems that this logic means I should not even consider 2) - if a hypothetical Primarina (or Thundurus) ban makes the metagame worse, then so be it, we continue the tiering process.

But, I am not voting now on whether to ban Thundurus, merely on whether the public should get a direct vote.

I view the council as a safety of sorts - it vets potential suspects and should ensure to some degree that the selected suspect is not too crazy, that if the public, in our view wrongly, bans something, it should not damage the metagame significantly. Yes we can continue the tiering process even if there's a "bad" outcome that damages or unbalances the metagame, but we should really avoid egregious harm for the sake of our time, tournaments, ladder, and metagame at large. Something like Primarina banned in my view could cause egregious harm to the balance we have established.

Banning Thundurus-T would not cause egregious harm, in my opinion. There's a certain bias against offensive Pokemon when using this analysis - losing offensive threats rarely makes building harder - but it's a reasonable opinion that Volt-Turn offenses can continue to exist with Thundurus-T and that NP Thundurus-T while nice on many styles, including HO, are not the cornerstone of HO.

I will likely vote against a Thundurus ban should it get a test. But, because the public voted twice in a majority to suspect Thundurus and because Thundurus can reasonably be considered broken/won't egregiously harm the metagame if it leaves, I vote to test Thundurus.

This aside, a few games I had on the ladder vs the same person recently make me think Thundurus does generate a bit too much pressure against slower teams.

game 1 https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1488350064-h5hi1f9ns2w74s6kqcm3xpg9ip3e5cppw - Thundurus is slept and doesnt do much
game 2 https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1488372560-8a79wwv7n4n75bf2urowyozvi9zmdltpw - Thundurus goes on a complete rampage, the thing about this and games 3 show how Thundurus can easily make predictions because if the opponent makes a risk vs Thundurus, it often just loses them the game
game 3 https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1488386546-w0fwqxa275xf9ng298gc16dsfi63y9gpw - Thundurus completely rampages
game 4 https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1488568322-bp1zhtbb4o3dc5ljtz7tsjgrzduat40pw - Thundurus loses!

 

[Adaam]

Thundurus has a monstrous base SpA with access to boosting moves, fantastic coverage, a decent ability and typing, and just-good enough bulk to live a swathe of neutral hits. It has all the makings of a broken Pokemon, yet in practice, it has a lot of roadblocks to overcome.

Don't get me wrong, I think Thundy is a great Pokemon that needs to be respected in the builder and in-game. However, we have more than enough tools to consider it balanced. For starters, 145 SpA is amazing, but it's pidgeonholed into using Boots as an item. It's neutral hits are not that strong (unlike a Specs Draco Meteor from Hydreigon, for example), making it reliant on hitting super effectively to tackle a healthy Pokemon. To give specifics, this is relevant against Aegislash, Jirachi, and Salamence which force it to pivot out unless they risk taking crippling damage/status. Even Pokemon like Amoonguss and Slowking comfortable live super effective hits and force Thundurus to predict correctly to make progress.

The fabled Nasty Plot set is technically unwallable, as is true for many boosting breakers. However, it first needs to find a turn to switch in, and then comfortably boost. It's bulk isn't terrible, but it's not great either. It’s definitely not like Latias which could switch in directly on many more Pokémon. Often you see it trade a boosting turn for minor chip, then it's simply revenge killed and unable to boost again later. Shiba vs Poek is a great example of this where Thundy got at most 1 kill before being revenged by Mamoswine. Replace Mamoswine with Lycanroc, Zarude, Nihilego, Zygarde, Scarf Krook, Scarf Hydreigon, Starmie, Salazzle, Azelf, Stone Edge Cobalion, Keldeo, or Scarf Diggersby, and you'll see that these aren't hard to come by. Then there is AV Tangrowth, Diancie, Tapu Bulu, Rotom-H, and AV Slowbro-G which can take any boosted hit (bar Sludge Bomb for Bulu). The list grows when you consider teching resist berries (I enjoy Chople Krook/Drei as a lure). There's a notion of slower teams being unable to handle Thundy long term, and it makes me wonder what exactly do these teams look like that Thundurus is finding multiple turns to boost AND avoid revenge killers? The list of checks is large enough that I find this claim to be false.

At risk of sparking a debate over what constitutes "balance" vs "bulky offense" vs whatever, here are some replays to help prove my point:
bea vs dunoks - Dunoks has two Thundy-bait mons in Skarmory and Moltres, yet manages to hold Thundurs at bay with "shaky" checks in Amoonguss, Swampert, and revenge killing with Zydog. The lack of immediate power comes into play when it takes a Spore from a healthy Amoonuss in exchange for Psychic damage.

Meru vs cy - cy uses the now-popular balance core of Swampert + Amoonguss + Celesteela. Thundurs finds no wiggle room against this "slow" core, and even has to contend with Gardevoir as a sneaky check to it.

Now for more offensive teams...

Raptor vs Star - This is Mienshao meta, but Thundurus is unable to find any turn to gain momentum. It can't switch into anything, it's outsped by Starmie and Zydog, Roserade trades damage with it, and even Jirachi can take a hit or two. Only Moltres is "forced out" but Thundy still has to predict correctly, otherwise it gives Zydog a free turn.

mncmt vs Star - A theoretical dream MU for Thundurus! Mamoswine, Cobalion, and Zarude are Focus Blast weak. Celesteela and Slowking weak to Thunderbolt. Salazzle dies to Psychic. How does the game play out? It trades damage with Zarude and promptly dies to Mamoswine. Again, it's not that bulky and not that strong. The inferior speed tier to its incarnate brother let Zarude hit it with Lariat before U-Turning out.

This aside, a few games I had on the ladder vs the same person recently make me think Thundurus does generate a bit too much pressure against slower teams...

I know you just made an aside comment with those replays, but that guy's team is quite literally outsped entirely by Thundurus besides his Scarf Rotom, which he tricked away in the first few turns. I don't believe teams like that which neglect any fast breaker deserve to thrive.

This will be a do not ban for me.

 

[romanji]

thundy thoughts

I don't think that Thundurus-T is broken currently in the meta right now. If it were a few months ago I would definitely say it was but as of now, it feels like it has gotten way under control. Its ever Speed has always hindered it, being further exacerbated by the rise of even faster threats like Cobalion, Azelf, and Nihilego. Its dilemma between Focus Blast for Excadrill or Grass Knot for Swampert, often halting the progress it can normally make against slower teams that it would otherwise. Nasty Plot sets are also quite inconsistent due to it needing to predict well against offensive teams and not finding opportunities to set up a Nasty Plot. While I am a bit negative on it, I still think that a suspect was warranted due to it being an absolute balance shredder, restricting many slower teams from succeeding. But Adaam made a point about nobody wanting to ban Zydog because it had a good matchup against hyper offense, so it makes no sense to selectively ban Thundurus for owning balance. With all that, I would vote no ban if I get reqs.

================================

Vanilluxe in SS UU

Vanilluxe @ Choice Specs
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Blizzard
- Freeze-Dry
- Ice Beam
- Sleep Talk

Vanilluxe is definitely the Flavor of the Month right now, as it is a very underrated wallbreaker in the current meta, capable of destroying teams with its powerful Choice Specs-boosted Ice moves, even seeing some tournament usage in Snake. It is able to exploit common defensive Pokemon such as Amoonguss and Mandibuzz going for Roost. Its hail lets it cancel out Leftovers recovery and chip its targets very easily, since the only relevant hail immune Pokemon is Mamoswine, and it doesn't resist it unless its Thick Fat. Steel-types like Aegislash and Cobalion aren't necessarily consistent checks to it since they lack recovery, and others like Celesteela and Excadrill don't even resist Ice. Water-types like Slowking and Primarina aren't good checks either since Freeze-Dry absolutely destroys them. Ice Beam is a good mid-ground option for Vanilluxe to have an accurate move to spam in case hail runs out that is stronger than Freeze-Dry. It also alleviates Blizzard’s PP issues. Sleep Talk lets it pivot into Spore and Sleep Powder from Amoonguss and Tangrowth, giving it free opportunities to fire off its Ice attacks and ignore other debilitating status like paralysis and Toxic. Now being an Ice-type wallbreaker definitely comes with many flaws, the main ones being its susceptibility to hazards and horrible defensive typing. It also has problems with its Speed making it prone to be revenge killed by faster threats like Jirachi and Nihilego which can also take its attacks well.

Replays of it in action
me vs pif
Vanilluxe is able to shred apart his team due to pif not bringing an Ice resist and his only Pokemon outspeeding being Alolan Raichu which can’t switch into it at all. Slowking’s Teleport is also key in helping Vanilluxe get into the field.

me vs Celebiii
Vanilluxe into rain is a damn near impossible matchup to begin with and when the only Ice resist gets frozen turn 1. It is also able to live Superpower from Tornadus at full.

HydreigonTheChild vs pif
Vanilluxe runs into 2 Water-types, with the other being Swampert which doesn’t resist Ice to begin with. This prevents Swampert from setting up Stealth Rock due to the looming threat of Vanilluxe forcing HTC to sack their Primarina to Freeze-Dry. Without Stealth Rock in the picture, Vanilluxe comes in safely often, heal off the Spikes damage with Grassy Terrain, wreak havoc once again.

UU11T swanna vs pif
Swanna’s only Ice resist is Keldeo and it gets crit by Blizzard. His only faster Pokemon than it was Zarude and for obvious reasons it can’t switch in. Vanilluxe is also able to stay healthy with Jirachi’s Wish.

Sample Team

(click sprites for team)

Since Vanilluxe struggles to get in safely, it necessitates hazard control, so Rapid Spin Excadrill and Defog Moltres were chosen since are they best hazard removal available that support Vanilluxe. Excadrill provides both hazard removal and hazard support while Moltres can better deal with Aegislash, Celesteela, Jirachi, and Fighting-types like Conkeldurr and non-Stone Edge Cobalion for both Excadrill and Vanilluxe. Zarude is a good pivot that can bait in Amoonguss and Mandibuzz for Vanilluxe to feast on. It also handles SubToxic Aegislash to get rid of another threat to Vanilluxe. Slowking is the main defensive pivot for the team that can absorb Knock Off with its Colbur Berry, check Nihilego and Mamoswine, and Teleport Vanilluxe in as well. Azelf is the main speed control and final pivot. The combination of U-turn and Knock Off is always fantastic, annoying the living daylights out of defensive teams. It being able to remove Chansey’s Eviolite makes it unable to switch into Vanilluxe’s Blizzard with hail and Stealth Rock up. Aegislash’s Leftovers being removed wears it down tremendously since it relies on it so heavily to check the threats it does.​

 

[BigFatMantis]

Hasn't been a lot of discussion on Thundurus-T here. Just want to say that I've been laddering quite a bit the past few weeks and have noticed a significant drop off from its previous status. A couple months ago it may have been considered a bit straining, but it seems the meta has learned to adjust to it pretty well and I wouldn't even call it a top 3 threat in the current metagame (Zydog and Conk and even Slowking cause more pressure in the builder than Thundurus). People have started using faster mons more consistently on ladder and in tours, including a surge in Zydog/Azelf usage and experimentation with previously considered niche mons like Salazzle. While Thundurus-T is by no means slow, it is just a bit too slow to compete with these consistently.

Thundurus is by no means a bad mon. It is very solid, certainly still top tier, and a nice, strong, healthy option for the current metagame when you need a progress maker. But it isn't overbearing, and most of its sets will be inevitably walled or stopped by something on your team without you even trying to counter it. Offense in particular thrashes Thundurus around, while fatter teams aren't as worried with Thundurus as they are with stopping something like Conk.

 

[Monky25]

Where's the ban Thundurus crowd now?

Going to make it a habit to try and post at least once on each suspect thread, especially since I'm now council and the playerbase should know the thoughts of the people making the decisions. Just found it funny that despite there being a majority wanting a Thundurus test from the public survey I haven't see a single pro-ban comment at all in discord lately. Not gonna beat a dead horse by saying the test was kinda pointless but what's done is done. Anyway, that's not why I'm here. After getting reqs, I can confidently say that I will vote Do Not Ban on Thundurus for a multitude of reasons through my experiences laddering and testing for UU snake playoffs. This post is going to be very similar to Adaam's but he hit the nail on the head right from the start and I will be seconding opinions from his post + offering my own commentary on a few of Thundurus's issues.

The main fault of Thundurus definitely stems from its overreliance to make trades with the wider metagame, which in turn allows it to be offensively pressured much easier. Thundurus is strong, but not overbearingly strong, especially coming from sets that rely on Volt Switch to do STAB damage, aka the most common pivot set going around. This is pretty big against threats like Salamence and Aegislash who eat a hit and can threaten a switch-in, but also hinders Thundurus even against fat walls like Slowking who comfortably eats a Volt Switch and just Teleports out.
252 SpA Thundurus-Therian Volt Switch vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Slowking: 228-270 (58 - 68.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
As such, since Thundurus is very reliant on trading hits to damage the enemy team it ends up being very prone to chip damage, which allows the following to easily pick it off: Zarude, Nihilego, Mamoswine, Salazzle, Cobalion, Zygarde-10%, Azelf, Starmie, Lycanroc, Keldeo, Scarf Hydra/Krook/Diggers. That's a very large list of offensive counterplay, sometimes with 2-3 fitting on a team. A full health Thundurus is a rare sight and as such even if it does get a KO it gets revenge killed the next turn anyway. Coupled with the fact it needs to pick coverage between zarude or swampert and many teams can easily pressure Thundurus by trading with it and offensively pressuring it. Playing the long game with Thundurus isn't the way to go, it's to give it little breathing room through faster threats pressuring it. We've seen these adaptations before and these teams still can take on the wider metagame, so Thundurus definitely doesn't centralize building.

Then there's the Nasty Plot set. Before I dive in fun little story- I failed 12 reqs runs before finally getting reqs on the next try. I used HO to get out of low ladder but the inconsistency of many threats like Azelf, Gyarados, and, you guessed it, Thundurus, caused me to lose many games. I'll never forget missing 3 focus blasts in a row against a Krookodile and ending up losing the streak and game. This has happened multiple times, which leads me to my next point- not only does Nasty Plot Thundurus struggle to boost up against the offensive threats on teams, but the fact it's so so inconsistent and over reliant on such a shit move just further pushes me away from the prospect of Thundurus being broken.

Overall, Thundurus is very balanced and if anything a bit overrated. Both the pivot and Nasty Plot sets have their flaws, and the fact multiple checks can easily be slotted on a team to limit it. I will vote do not ban on Thundurus

 

[TSR]

e: apparently not making this post into paragraphs made people's eyes bleed so bop

Where's the ban Thundurus crowd now?

hi

First off to destroy this scrub lightly critique some of these examples Adaam put here. I think most of these looked more at "what Thundy did in this game itself" rather than the overall impact of it in the match

bea vs dunoks - Dunoks has two Thundy-bait mons in Skarmory and Moltres, yet manages to hold Thundurs at bay with "shaky" checks in Amoonguss, Swampert, and revenge killing with Zydog. The lack of immediate power comes into play when it takes a Spore from a healthy Amoonuss in exchange for Psychic damage.

Allowing Thundurus to take sleep was arguably a misplay here, Swampert had let itself be chipped down early on a bit and with a bit more patient play it coulda been broken through as well. However bea was also piloting the absolutely awful Scarf Zarude which made it essentially a waiting game until Skarm spiking up allowed Zydog to clean outright. If anything, an example of how powerful Zygarde Spikes can be at dismantling Thundy offense.

Meru vs cy - cy uses the now-popular balance core of Swampert + Amoonguss + Celesteela. Thundurs finds no wiggle room against this "slow" core, and even has to contend with Gardevoir as a sneaky check to it.

Gardevoir is a highly specialized mon that is otherwise pretty mediocre in the current meta but is one of the few choices to reliably answer most Thundurus (not Sludge Bomb). Even here, it has to Trick away its Scarf for progress and still is essentially Slowking port fodder several times throughout the game and takes a big chunk from Knock Off. Afterwards, Swampert is chunked down enough from Psychic to where cy was 1 Fire Blast away from being completely swept by Tauros. It connects, Tauros wins.
Now for more offensive teams...

Raptor vs Star - This is Mienshao meta, but Thundurus is unable to find any turn to gain momentum. It can't switch into anything, it's outsped by Starmie and Zydog, Roserade trades damage with it, and even Jirachi can take a hit or two. Only Moltres is "forced out" but Thundy still has to predict correctly, otherwise it gives Zydog a free turn.

Don't have much to say here, the teams Outsped Thundurus With A Lot Of Pokemon but the teams were so defensively lacking that the game almost nearly came down to the Zydog speed tie. Luckily for Raptor, Star's team also crumpled to DD Molt-G after a single turn of setup so that ended up clutching the game for him.

mncmt vs Star - A theoretical dream MU for Thundurus! Mamoswine, Cobalion, and Zarude are Focus Blast weak. Celesteela and Slowking weak to Thunderbolt. Salazzle dies to Psychic. How does the game play out? It trades damage with Zarude and promptly dies to Mamoswine. Again, it's not that bulky and not that strong. The inferior speed tier to its incarnate brother let Zarude hit it with Lariat before U-Turning out.

Even this single U-turn against Zarude does a good chunk thanks to the 4x weakness and then sets the pace for mence's own Zarude to come in, facilitating free momentum for Nidoking in the following turns, letting it severely dent Slowking and allows for Darm to collect kills lategame to end with Zarude cleaning.

Anyhow, I feel the need to make this post to get my thoughts out for once despite every word I type being ultimately pointless due to the overwhelming majority of votes likely to keep Thundurus in the tier. Regardless, I Thundy should be banned from UU as I believe that it's by far the most egregious factor contributing to the overall poor place defensive styles find themselves in our current metagame. One could definitely argue: 1. that I'm pretty damn biased here as playing slower games is certainly my preferred playstyle (see: my Clefable usage in dpp) and 2. that this issue is a result of the gen 8 changes to the competitive landscape as a whole (which is the opinion of Lyss and Clark that brought it up earlier in the council chat) with stuff such as just simply spamming strong Knock Off being enough to permanently gain progress thanks to the nuking of Z-moves and Mega stones as well as, maybe more impactful, the introduction of Boots that reduce the risk of your key mons being vulnerable to incremental progress (obviously mostly from hazards) that slower paced balance teams would usually go for in previous generations. I've stressed many times in the past that I think we should strive to make each playstyle (even the cheese like sun, stall, Exca HO, etc) as close to equally viable as possible and while I recognize that is really subjective depending on where people draw the line for the definition of viable. Thundurus in my opinion detracts from this goal a lot since it has exactly 0 reliable defensive measures you can take it on with. Thundy constantly forces dangerous guessing games without any of the previously mentioned ability for fatter teams to make incremental progress as they usually have throughout past generations. This essentially requires all but the most hard prepped stalls with Sdef Quagsire AND Chansey AND Umbreon and HOs that throw defensive profiles to the wind to have several mons capable of threatening it offensively to attempt to essentially, hit Thundurus before it can hit you. This makes the vast majority of people stick to bulky offense, and while that isn't necessarily an issue and even something that commonly occurs in most developed metagames, I still believe that a lot of structures are massively restricted in ability to branch out and introduce more (healthy) variance to the metagame as a result. This may seem unbelivably scrubby of me to bring up, but it really does make a lot of teams all just look the fucking same. Like an actual massive amount of gen 8 underused teams.

I could go on but for both my own and the people (hopefully) reading this as well as a need to get the rest of this post shat out in a timely manner, I think we can generalize a ton of these in a way that I think is a sign of unhealthy metagame progression. These teams, just a sample size from the earlier and then latter weeks of UUSD II, can be mostly generalized with the fact that they are bulky offense teams with most of their offense (usually 2-4 pokemon) restricted to speed tiers above 101 to limit Thundurus with several defensively minded mons that either do their best to not give up free turns to Thundy like Teleport from Slowking and Toxic Registeel or something riskier like Sdef Swampert praying it doesn't get smacked by Grass Knot, and then often times additional priority from Mamoswine to further keep it in check, or an option like Zygarde-10% that combines both of these offensive option's traits. Not to detract from any of these mons and their metagame impact as a whole since threats like Mamo and Zarude have excellent progress making capability, and a great blend of simultaneous offensive and defensive prowess respectively, but a large majority of offense gets pigeonholed into these limited structures that do their best to constantly stay ahead of Thundurus and co. with nonstop offensive momentum and ultimately cutting their losses and making 1 for 1 trades when the time comes. I'd also consider the limited dex a factor in this as outside of answering a single mon, the options for even stuff like Stealth Rock and Defog are pretty limiting to building as well.

I had a bit of an epiphany on this matter when discussing the upcoming VR update a few days ago of just how far this "balance is unviable" mindset has gone when Lily, the actual tier leader herself, called Skarmory a completely irrelevant Pokemon (in relation to ranking Magneton; essentially the argument was "Skarmory is irrelevant so Magneton is also irrelevant", but I digress). While I heavily disagree with this statement as its ability to completely neuter the presence of a large amount of otherwise very dangerous physically oriented threats is second to none, it really got me thinking about its place in the metagame as well. While I don't think Thundy was the sole factor in contributing to such an extreme opinion, I think it is by far one of, if not the single most, contributing factor to a take like this, which actually was not too far off from shared by several other people in the discussion. Skarmory is definitely a mon that will slow down your team's overall pace and as such would be best placed on the oh so unviable slower paced balance that just can't seem to get a foothold in this tier. The fact of the matter for Skarm is that it's by far one of the worst impacted Pokemon in the tier by Thundurus's presence, and allows not only free entry for the thing but also allows it to freely enact those dangerous guessing games that constantly put already reactive by nature teams on the back foot. Are you gonna get your AV Glowbro or Chansey knocked and severely crippled as checks to both Thundurus and other threats? Is your Swampert gonna eat a Grass Knot and essentially lose your rocks for the rest of the game if it lives? Hell will it just Nasty Plot up and bowl over your Chansey 1v1 instead? Are you about to switch your Amoonguss into a Psychic 2HKO just for a 30% chance to put it on a timer with a Sludge Bomb poison? Thundurus can't do all of this at once, sure, but equipped with Boots and one of U-turn or Volt Switch, it can spend a decently long time constantly escaping its checks and counters while also enabling its teammates to constantly burn out defense from the opposing team, all the while the person facing down Thundurus is taking a shot in the dark at what set it could possibly be early game in a dangerous gamble to hopefully not have their key mons put out of commission before turn 10. I think the massive coverage options it has on top of its good speed tier (that other mons become significantly better in the tier when they outpace) on top of being able to constantly escape it's checks when they do manage to hold it off thanks to the Very Fun Boots Pivot Strategies make it an obnoxiously difficult mon to deal with in building and constrains bulky teams to an unhealthy degree.

With all that said I understand that this entire post will probably gain me several "l2p" comments from readers and that scrambling to slap out a completely meaningless post that probably won't have any influence on the pretty much already decided vote as the deadline for reqs laddering just now passed at time of writing. Hopefully this can at least help a few readers understand where I'm coming from at least and why I've been so morbidly displeased with building and playing UU in recent months. And hey if I converted a few others to the nuke Thundy train, all the better. I certainly don't think it's shaped itself up to be a complete world beater but I think UU with be better off without it around.

 

[Moutemoute]

Hey, it's quite late and I don't have the faith nor the time to make a big post like TSR did. To make it short my main issue with Thundurus-Therian is how it restrains in a bad way the teambuilding and the fact that most Balanced/Bulky Offense struggle vs this Pokemon since it's able to just wear down effectively most of our defensive backbones. Thundy-T invalidades or pressures a lot of teams/defensive cores in my opinion and forces some predictions due to its adjustable moveset. Even tho pivot set will never ever sweep a whole team, the amount of pressure it puts on them makes it an insane usefull tool for a lot of teams because it can just go back and forth, pressuring opponent Pokemon and pivoting into its checks to bring something else that fucks them up, and it's not hard to be honest.. Mamoswine is quite formidable as it can fucked up Grass-types but the same applies to Choice Specs Keldeo which paired with Thundurus-T are able to overcome their common checks. As a player who tend to play fat teams, I'm really struggling to see how Thundurus-T brings something useful in Underused bar its bad aspects and while I definitively don't think it's not as bad as it was in the past, I'm one of the council member who fought to get this suspect done and it's definitively not now that I'll not vote ban.

 

[pokemonisfun]

An excellent and incredibly strong UU tournament hosted by BigFatMantis just ended today, won by Adaam with pdt as the runner-up.

I do think this was one of the strongest tournaments, easily stronger than practically all of our circuits as Adaam beat Askov, KSteve, Raichy, myself, Robjr, and Avarice in his victorious run.

I wanted to look at the final game of the tournament, which was gen8uu (disclaimed not saying I can play better and I don't know the exact teams):

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8uu-609292

Turn 1:

This is gen8uu in a nutshell: #Momentum - both lead with their momentum mons, Scarf Diggersby (presumably here, it's not Band damage for sure) and Slowking for PDT seems pretty safe. Very normal high level player stuff.

Turn 3:

Adaam able to launch the first attack, courtesy of Colbur Slowking giving him a free-ish Teleport on Crawdaunt

Turn 5:

I really don't get PDT's Close Combat here but I guess there wasn't much he could do to punish a Teleport anyways.

Turn 10:

I'm pretty sure PDT tried to get Zygarde in on a predicted Aegislash - interesting point here, it should have been clear to Adaam already that Nihi generally counters Aegislash but the fact that PDT tried a double here should further support this in Adaam's head, i.e., now Adaam knows PDT does not want to use Nihi to try to beat out Aegislash.

This is also called a midground from Adaam - midground is when you play a move you know is never optimal but is still safe regardless what your opponent does. Adaam knows that if Nihilego uses Meteor Beam, Aegislash is optimal and if Zygarde doubles in, then Draco Meteor to get a KO is optimal. But obviously keeping Hydreigon in on Nihilego is hugely risky and giving Zygarde free turns (or letting Nihilego knock Aegi) is also risky, so he goes to Slowking - which is not optimal vs Zygarde or Nihilego but it still gets the job done safely.

Turn 17:

Maybe impressive for an amateur but just a solid nice move by PDT, getting in Zygarde on a fairly telegraphed Roost - to an amateur, it might look crazy to switch in a Zygarde vs a Hydreigon (and there was considerable risk), but still, PDT correctly evaluates that Adaam wants to keep Hydreigon healthy to beat Crawdaunt long term and Draco was unlikely here, plus getting Zygarde is is very good as Adaam is weak to it.

Turn 23:

PDT is asking where his burns are at because they help Zygarde 2HKO Slowking much more easily

Turn 24 and 25:

This is called pivoting from PDT - pivoting is when you want to bring in a mon against your opponent (Salamence against Adaam's Aegislash),but you cannot directly switch in on the likely move (Toxic), so PDT goes to a temporary mon (the pivot, Nihilego) to take the Toxic and bait out another move (Close Combat) that Salamence can switch in on.

Many people call things like Slowking and Teleport Chansey pivots - that's because they have the same basic idea of pivoting, getting something in for free.

Turn 29:

As Sage points out in the chat, Pain Split Nihilego is often used as an anti Chansey measure, it also beats Quagsire which Chansey is paired with on stalls with Grass Knot. It's very effective in breaking down defenses but PDT repurposes it here to keep his Nihilego healthy.

Turn 31:

This is called a double switch from PDT - a double switch is when you predict your opponent will switch (Aegi to Diancie) so you switch predicting the switch in (Zygarde can spam a move vs Diancie). I'm not sure this was ideal from PDT unless Thousand Arrows killed Diancie, which it did not. However, Adaam either chokes or doesn't have Moonblast (very likely the latter) so Zygarde still lives - still not a good trade for PDT I think as Zygarde was the main win con and now dies to hazards). After this, Adaam has a decisive advantage and converts without issue.

I mean no disrespect to either player with this short analysis, it was an excellent game and I do think PDT and Adaam's performance in this tournament was considerably stronger than most of our circuit tours - many thanks to BFM for hosting this.

 

[Adaam]

An excellent and incredibly strong UU tournament hosted by BigFatMantis just ended today, won by Adaam with pdt as the runner-up.

I do think this was one of the strongest tournaments, easily stronger than practically all of our circuits as Adaam beat Askov, KSteve, Raichy, myself, Robjr, and Avarice in his victorious run.

I wanted to look at the final game of the tournament, which was gen8uu (disclaimed not saying I can play better and I don't know the exact teams):

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8uu-609292

View attachment 408035

Turn 1:

This is gen8uu in a nutshell: #Momentum - both lead with their momentum mons, Scarf Diggersby (presumably here, it's not Band damage for sure) and Slowking for PDT seems pretty safe. Very normal high level player stuff.

Turn 3:

Adaam able to launch the first attack, courtesy of Colbur Slowking giving him a free-ish Teleport on Crawdaunt

Turn 5:

I really don't get PDT's Close Combat here but I guess there wasn't much he could do to punish a Teleport anyways.

Turn 10:

I'm pretty sure PDT tried to get Zygarde in on a predicted Aegislash - interesting point here, it should have been clear to Adaam already that Nihi generally counters Aegislash but the fact that PDT tried a double here should further support this in Adaam's head, i.e., now Adaam knows PDT does not want to use Nihi to try to beat out Aegislash.

This is also called a midground from Adaam - midground is when you play a move you know is never optimal but is still safe regardless what your opponent does. Adaam knows that if Nihilego uses Meteor Beam, Aegislash is optimal and if Zygarde doubles in, then Draco Meteor to get a KO is optimal. But obviously keeping Hydreigon in on Nihilego is hugely risky and giving Zygarde free turns (or letting Nihilego knock Aegi) is also risky, so he goes to Slowking - which is not optimal vs Zygarde or Nihilego but it still gets the job done safely.

Turn 17:

Maybe impressive for an amateur but just a solid nice move by PDT, getting in Zygarde on a fairly telegraphed Roost - to an amateur, it might look crazy to switch in a Zygarde vs a Hydreigon (and there was considerable risk), but still, PDT correctly evaluates that Adaam wants to keep Hydreigon healthy to beat Crawdaunt long term and Draco was unlikely here, plus getting Zygarde is is very good as Adaam is weak to it.

Turn 23:

PDT is asking where his burns are at because they help Zygarde 2HKO Slowking much more easily

Turn 24 and 25:

This is called pivoting from PDT - pivoting is when you want to bring in a mon against your opponent (Salamence against Adaam's Aegislash),but you cannot directly switch in on the likely move (Toxic), so PDT goes to a temporary mon (the pivot, Nihilego) to take the Toxic and bait out another move (Close Combat) that Salamence can switch in on.

Many people call things like Slowking and Teleport Chansey pivots - that's because they have the same basic idea of pivoting, getting something in for free.

Turn 29:

As Sage points out in the chat, Pain Split Nihilego is often used as an anti Chansey measure, it also beats Quagsire which Chansey is paired with on stalls with Grass Knot. It's very effective in breaking down defenses but PDT repurposes it here to keep his Nihilego healthy.

Turn 31:

This is called a double switch from PDT - a double switch is when you predict your opponent will switch (Aegi to Diancie) so you switch predicting the switch in (Zygarde can spam a move vs Diancie). I'm not sure this was ideal from PDT unless Thousand Arrows killed Diancie, which it did not. However, Adaam either chokes or doesn't have Moonblast (very likely the former) so Zygarde still lives - still not a good trade for PDT I think as Zygarde was the main win con and now dies to hazards). After this, Adaam has a decisive advantage and converts without issue.

I mean no disrespect to either player with this short analysis, it was an excellent game and I do think PDT and Adaam's performance in this tournament was considerably stronger than most of our circuit tours - many thanks to BFM for hosting this.

Lovely analysis as always. Will just add that my Diancie dropped Moonblast. I ran Diamond Storm / Body Press / Mystical Fire since you cover the Dragon/Darks anyway.

 

[pokemonisfun]

Lovely analysis as always. Will just add that my Diancie dropped Moonblast. I ran Diamond Storm / Body Press / Mystical Fire since you cover the Dragon/Darks anyway.

However, Adaam either chokes or doesn't have Moonblast (very likely the former latter)

Sorry I just forgot what former and latter meant, I pretty much knew you were this set.

 

[pdt]

Turn 5:

I really don't get PDT's Close Combat here but I guess there wasn't much he could do to punish a Teleport anyways.

i lose momentum either way and was too lazy to think through all the optimal positioning, cobalion seemed decent enough so i just clicked it bc it didnt really matter. anyways gg adam and amazing analysis as always pif. roost specs drei into daunt is an L but happens to the best of us.