★ np: SS UU Stage 11.1 - Kingslayer

[Lily]

Once upon a time, a king with an Aegislash reigned over the land. His Pokémon eventually drained him of life, and his kingdom fell with him.
​

Hi all, following our recent survey in which ~55% of you told us that yes, you do want a suspect test for Aegislash, the UU council has decided it's time to put it back in the frying pan.

It's been about a year since Aegislash was unbanned. In that time, it's been up and down; it started off pretty mediocre, but as people explored its potential more it rose to become one of the best threats in the tier. It frequently fluctuates between S and A+ on the viability rankings, and just when you think it's been pinned down it finds a way to rise back to the top. To illustrate how difficult it can be to prep for Aegislash in the builder, let's look at some examples.

King's Shield + Toxic is adequately walled all game long by Galarian Moltres, but that gets blown up by Choice Band. Mandibuzz can handle Choice Band, but falters to SubTox. Zarude can take on SubTox, but is blown away by Choice Specs. Chansey can eat up any hit from Choice Specs all game long, but it is setup fodder for Swords Dance sets. And while Mandibuzz can blow away Swords Dance Aegislash... you begin to see the problem. Fitting a lot of checks to Aegislash is difficult as is, but even if you do manage to do it, you frequently can't handle every set defensively.

While UU is no stranger to lethal wallbreakers with very limited defensive answers, Aegislash is no slouch defensively. Its phenomenal defensive typing lets it stonewall popular Pokemon like Nihilego, Cobalion, and Crobat, and its amazing natural bulk lets it take hits from the likes of Choice Band Zygarde-10% from full HP with just maximum HP investment. Couple this with King's Shield, which drops the foe's Attack if they hit with a contact move, and Aegislash's nasty tendency to get endless Leftovers recovery thanks to its many opportunities to hit the field, and you have a surprisingly resilient offensive-defensive threat.

It's not all roses for Aegislash, of course. Its Speed tier is quite poor; while it can outrun most defensive Pokemon shy of Mandibuzz and creep offensive Pokemon like Conkeldurr and Azumarill, it pales in comparison to the likes of other wallbreakers that wouldn't even be considered fast, such as Diggersby and Tapu Bulu. This often works in its favour as it means it can tank a hit in Shield form before attacking, but it does result in Aegislash being offensively checked by lots of faster threats - Diggersby, Krookodile, Excadrill, Salamence, Thundurus-T, Hydreigon, Salazzle, Lycanroc-D, Mamoswine and Zarude are just some of the Pokemon that outspeed and heavily threaten Aegislash, while Pokemon it theoretically counters like Nihilego and Cobalion can slot in a move to cripple it, such as Thunder Wave or Knock Off. A majority of you still wanted this test to happen, though, and council votes were also in favour of it, so here it is!

The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. As always, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE is fine.

minimum games needed

GXE	minimum games
80	50
80.2	49
80.4	48
80.6	47
80.8	46
81	45
81.2	44
81.4	43
81.6	42
81.8	41
82	40
82.2	39
82.4	38
82.6	37
82.8	36
83	35
83.2	34
83.4	33
83.6	32
83.8	31
84	30

Other than that, the test will operate as always. There will be no suspect ladder. Instead, the standard UU ladder will remain open. Those who wish to participate in this suspect test will instead use a fresh, suspect-specific alt. All games must be played on the Pokemon Showdown! UU ladder on a fresh alt with the following format: "UU11A (Nick)." For example, I might register the alt UU11A Lily to ladder with. You must meet the listed format in order to qualify.

Participants will have until Sunday, March 20th at 7:00 PM GMT -5 to meet voting requirements and post in the Alt Identification Thread. PLEASE DO NOT POST YOUR CONFIRMED SUSPECT RESULTS HERE - there is a dedicated thread for identifying your suspect results. Happy laddering!

Current UU Council

Adaam
Amane Misa
Askov
avarice
Indigo Plateau
KM
Lily
LNumbers
Lyss
Monky25
Moutemoute
pokemonisfun
TSR

 

[Orbuznik]

Sadge i love Aegislash

 

[Walletinspector62]

So what happened to the Thundurus Therian suspect test?

 

[KM]

just finished getting reqs, so I thought i'd post my thoughts here publicly as probably one of the more public anti-aegi voices.

in my eyes, the thing that has kept aegi under the radar for as long as it has been was the perception that there were only one or two "good sets" and that everything else was cheesy and not worth considering in serious teambuilding. as we reach almost a year of aegislash in the tier, people have thoroughly explored pretty much every potential combination of viable moves and the result is that there's actually at least 6 viable (and functionally different) sets, with variations in items / spread / coverage for many of those.

simply having multiple viable sets doesn't actually make aegislash broken -- what does push it over the edge is that the intersection of the checks and counters for these sets are often quite limited -- if anything, one set has moves that effectively lure the traditional checks to another, and vice versa. i won't go through the whole ritual, but here's a few common aegislash "checks" and which sets they win and lose to.

tp chansey: beats sub tox, shaky check to cc sball, loses to sd ho, loses to ks sd, loses to band, shaky check to specs
boots zarude: beats sub tox, shaky check to cc sball, shaky check to sd ho, loses to ks sd, loses to band, loses to specs
mandibuzz: loses to sub tox, shaky check to cc sball, beats sd ho mostly, beats ks sd, loses to band, loses to specs
rest talk g-molt: beats sub tox, mostly beats cc sball, checks sd ho, kinda loses to ks sd, loses to band, shaky check to specs
rest talk prim: beats sub tox, conditionally beats cc sball (spd drops suck), doesn't really check sd ho, loses to ks sd w/o burn, loses to band, loses to specs
amoonguss: thuds into sub tox kinda, decent check to cc sball, checks sd ho, beats ks sd, checks band, loses to specs

could do more, but the point is pretty clear -- not only does every common aegislash check have a set it loses to, most of them only have a few sets that they actually reliably beat. this makes switching into aegislash incredibly dangerous before figuring out its set -- and due to the increased diversity of sets it's no longer possible to make reasonable assumptions about set just from finding out the item or move.

finally, i want to shine a spotlight on SD KS aegislash -- partially because i take some credit for its popularity and also because I think it's one of the things pushing it over the edge.

Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD (you can change up the EVs if you want but this is the auto)
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat / Sacred Sword / Iron Head
- Shadow Sneak
- King's Shield

for teams that rely on some combination of zarude and chansey to check aegi, this set immediately disrupts those ideas. King's Shield eases prediction, gives you lefties back, and lets you weaken things like zarude and krook to turn revenge kills into another hard situation for your opponent. significant HP investment has distinct advantages for sd ks aegi too -- allowing you to choose to do things like tank a banded thousand arrows and kill zygarde, or eating an excadrill earthquake.

this set has seen a ton of use in UUPL, and it boasts a high winrate as well -- while it's easy to write it off as a trend benefiting from things like amoonguss falling in popularity, it's a testament to aegislash's ability to customize its set for any meta in order to be a top threat. additionally, the added threat of this set now makes every other aegislash set harder to check.

i know that opinion is a little more divided on this suspect and there's a lot of people who are surprised aegi is even being suspected -- i encourage y'all to try this set out in your journey to get reqs bc it's hard to express how broken it feels just by talking about it!

 

[Gengardium]

It got moved to UUBL

 

[justdrew]

I might not be a substantial voice in the tier but I'm briefly going to share my thoughts after achieving reqs.

Firstly I agree with what KM said. I've seen many games where Aegislash is one of 6 sets and the opposing team just auto loses to that set or has a very very difficult matchup. One thing I look closely at when deciding whether or not to ban a Pokemon is what will happen to the tier if it's banned. If Aegislash stays things stay the same, but if it leaves then things change. I did this when deciding to vote ban on Quagsire in SM for example which I still back because stall remains viable without it.

My opinion is that more things exist to hold Aegislash in check then Aegislashes are used to hold other things in check. KM listed only 6 Pokemon/sets that are used to hold back the demon that is Aegislash. There are plenty of other inventions I have seen. Aegislash in itself mainly exists to sweep and also hard walls Chansey and Cobalion (Chansey can Thunder Wave I suppose). There other Pokemon like Amoonguss and Nihilego but these can punish Aegislash on a switch with Spore and Knock Off respectively. But behind a Substitute Aegislash becomes an even bigger issue and even checks like Zarude are forced into prediction wars as Jungle Healings get stalled out.

I think Aegislash does more damage to the tier than good, so as of right now I am in between voting ban and abstain. Although as always I will follow this thread and read all the posts and potentially my opinion will be swayed.

 

[Adaam]

just finished getting reqs, so I thought i'd post my thoughts here publicly as probably one of the more public anti-aegi voices.

in my eyes, the thing that has kept aegi under the radar for as long as it has been was the perception that there were only one or two "good sets" and that everything else was cheesy and not worth considering in serious teambuilding. as we reach almost a year of aegislash in the tier, people have thoroughly explored pretty much every potential combination of viable moves and the result is that there's actually at least 6 viable (and functionally different) sets, with variations in items / spread / coverage for many of those.

simply having multiple viable sets doesn't actually make aegislash broken -- what does push it over the edge is that the intersection of the checks and counters for these sets are often quite limited -- if anything, one set has moves that effectively lure the traditional checks to another, and vice versa. i won't go through the whole ritual, but here's a few common aegislash "checks" and which sets they win and lose to.

tp chansey: beats sub tox, shaky check to cc sball, loses to sd ho, loses to ks sd, loses to band, shaky check to specs
boots zarude: beats sub tox, shaky check to cc sball, shaky check to sd ho, loses to ks sd, loses to band, loses to specs
mandibuzz: loses to sub tox, shaky check to cc sball, beats sd ho mostly, beats ks sd, loses to band, loses to specs
rest talk g-molt: beats sub tox, mostly beats cc sball, checks sd ho, kinda loses to ks sd, loses to band, shaky check to specs
rest talk prim: beats sub tox, conditionally beats cc sball (spd drops suck), doesn't really check sd ho, loses to ks sd w/o burn, loses to band, loses to specs
amoonguss: thuds into sub tox kinda, decent check to cc sball, checks sd ho, beats ks sd, checks band, loses to specs

could do more, but the point is pretty clear -- not only does every common aegislash check have a set it loses to, most of them only have a few sets that they actually reliably beat. this makes switching into aegislash incredibly dangerous before figuring out its set -- and due to the increased diversity of sets it's no longer possible to make reasonable assumptions about set just from finding out the item or move.

finally, i want to shine a spotlight on SD KS aegislash -- partially because i take some credit for its popularity and also because I think it's one of the things pushing it over the edge.

Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD (you can change up the EVs if you want but this is the auto)
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat / Sacred Sword / Iron Head
- Shadow Sneak
- King's Shield

for teams that rely on some combination of zarude and chansey to check aegi, this set immediately disrupts those ideas. King's Shield eases prediction, gives you lefties back, and lets you weaken things like zarude and krook to turn revenge kills into another hard situation for your opponent. significant HP investment has distinct advantages for sd ks aegi too -- allowing you to choose to do things like tank a banded thousand arrows and kill zygarde, or eating an excadrill earthquake.

this set has seen a ton of use in UUPL, and it boasts a high winrate as well -- while it's easy to write it off as a trend benefiting from things like amoonguss falling in popularity, it's a testament to aegislash's ability to customize its set for any meta in order to be a top threat. additionally, the added threat of this set now makes every other aegislash set harder to check.

i know that opinion is a little more divided on this suspect and there's a lot of people who are surprised aegi is even being suspected -- i encourage y'all to try this set out in your journey to get reqs bc it's hard to express how broken it feels just by talking about it!

Not gonna add much because this hits everything I wanted to say. The presence of Kommo-o made non-Toxic sets a lot worse, and for the longest time nobody used any set besides SubToxic and CC + Toxic. The Swords Dance set is insanely strong and removes Aegislash's biggest flaw being its speed. You can no longer keep it in check if you have 4 mons that hit it hard when the other two give it setup and let it Shadow Sneak you to death.

I was DNB before, but after seeing this dumb set tear up UUPL, Aegislash needs to go

 

[Lily]

I made a video about this suspect test for anyone who doesn't like reading long paragraphs

hopefully this makes the information a bit more digestible! thank you to Lyss and freezai who helped or gave advice at various points

 

[Monky25]

UUPL Stats and Trends- Aegislash's Kingdom

​

Stepping away from the Aegislash discussion, I'm back again with a usage stats post for UUPL. You probably remember these from UU Snake, but here I cover trends in usage and teambuilding during UUPL. There already has been huge developments during the tour for our tier and will likely continue to change as the tour goes on and tier changes happen/ I'll aim to do these every 2 weeks to see the the different phases of the tier and what trends our very best players are following. The stats for Week 1 and 2 are down below.
Week 1

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1   | Zarude             |   12 |  37.50% |  41.66% |
| 2    | Chansey            |   10 |  31.25% |  70.00% |
| 2  | Aegislash          |   10 |  31.25% |  50.00% |
| 4 | Zygarde-10%        |    9 |  28.12% |  66.67% |
| 4    | Salamence          |    9 |  28.12% |  55.56% |
| 4    | Tangrowth          |    9 |  28.12% |  55.56% |
| 4    | Excadrill          |    9 |  28.12% |  44.44% |
| 8    | Nihilego           |    8 |  25.00% |  62.50% |
| 9    | Crobat             |    7 |  21.88% |  42.86% |
| 10   | Moltres-Galar      |    6 |  18.75% |  50.00% |
| 10   | Cobalion           |    6 |  18.75% |  33.33% |
| 10   | Slowking           |    6 |  18.75% |  33.33% |
| 10   | Thundurus-Therian  |    6 |  18.75% |  33.33% |
| 14   | Skarmory           |    5 |  15.62% |  80.00% |
| 14   | Mandibuzz          |    5 |  15.62% |  60.00% |
| 14   | Swampert           |    5 |  15.62% |  40.00% |
| 14   | Azelf              |    5 |  15.62% |  20.00% |
| 18   | Primarina          |    4 |  12.50% |  50.00% |
| 18   | Hydreigon          |    4 |  12.50% |  50.00% |
| 18   | Mamoswine          |    4 |  12.50% |  50.00% |
| 18   | Conkeldurr         |    4 |  12.50% |  25.00% |
| 22   | Amoonguss          |    3 |   9.38% | 100.00% |
| 22   | Slowbro-Galar      |    3 |   9.38% |  33.33% |
| 22   | Rotom-Wash         |    3 |   9.38% |  33.33% |
| 22   | Salazzle           |    3 |   9.38% |  33.33% |
| 22   | Tapu Bulu          |    3 |   9.38% |  33.33% |
| 22   | Rotom-Heat         |    3 |   9.38% |   0.00% |
| 28   | Chandelure         |    2 |   6.25% | 100.00% |
| 28   | Tentacruel         |    2 |   6.25% | 100.00% |
| 28   | Dhelmise           |    2 |   6.25% |  50.00% |
| 28   | Keldeo             |    2 |   6.25% |  50.00% |
| 28   | Tornadus           |    2 |   6.25% |  50.00% |
| 28   | Registeel          |    2 |   6.25% |  50.00% |
| 28   | Froslass           |    2 |   6.25% |  50.00% |
| 28   | Cloyster           |    2 |   6.25% |  50.00% |
| 28   | Starmie            |    2 |   6.25% |  50.00% |
| 37   | Inteleon           |    1 |   3.12% | 100.00% |
| 37   | Diancie            |    1 |   3.12% | 100.00% |
| 37   | Gastrodon          |    1 |   3.12% | 100.00% |
| 37   | Scrafty            |    1 |   3.12% | 100.00% |
| 37   | Avalugg            |    1 |   3.12% | 100.00% |
| 37   | Quagsire           |    1 |   3.12% | 100.00% |
| 37   | Reuniclus          |    1 |   3.12% | 100.00% |
| 37   | Volcanion          |    1 |   3.12% |   0.00% |
| 37   | Diggersby          |    1 |   3.12% |   0.00% |
| 37   | Rhyperior          |    1 |   3.12% |   0.00% |
| 37   | Azumarill          |    1 |   3.12% |   0.00% |
| 37   | Krookodile         |    1 |   3.12% |   0.00% |
| 37   | Obstagoon          |    1 |   3.12% |   0.00% |

Week 2 Stats

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon            | Use  | Usage % |  Win %  |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1    | Aegislash          |   14 |  43.75% |  50.00% |
| 2    | Slowking           |    9 |  28.12% |  55.56% |
| 2   | Zarude               |   9 |  28.12% |  55.56% |
| 2    | Cobalion           |    9 |  28.12% |  44.44% |
| 5    | Swampert           |    8 |  25.00% |  75.00% |
| 5   | Skarmory           |    8 |  25.00% |  75.00% |
| 5    | Thundurus-Therian  |    8 |  25.00% |  62.50% |
| 5    | Zygarde-10%        |    8 |  25.00% |  37.50% |
| 5    | Tangrowth          |    8 |  25.00% |  25.00% |
| 5    | Salamence          |    8 |  25.00% |  25.00% |
| 11   | Chansey            |    7 |  21.88% |  42.86% |
| 12   | Hydreigon          |    6 |  18.75% |  83.33% |
| 12   | Nihilego           |    6 |  18.75% |  50.00% |
| 12   | Moltres-Galar      |    6 |  18.75% |  16.67% |
| 15   | Diggersby          |    5 |  15.62% |  80.00% |
| 15   | Azelf              |    5 |  15.62% |  40.00% |
| 15   | Mamoswine          |    5 |  15.62% |  40.00% |
| 15   | Necrozma           |    5 |  15.62% |  20.00% |
| 19   | Excadrill          |    4 |  12.50% |  50.00% |
| 20   | Moltres            |    3 |   9.38% | 100.00% |
| 20   | Celesteela         |    3 |   9.38% |  66.67% |
| 20   | Dhelmise           |    3 |   9.38% |  66.67% |
| 20   | Amoonguss          |    3 |   9.38% |  66.67% |
| 20   | Jirachi            |    3 |   9.38% |  33.33% |
| 25   | Chandelure         |    2 |   6.25% | 100.00% |
| 25   | Tapu Bulu          |    2 |   6.25% | 100.00% |
| 25   | Salazzle           |    2 |   6.25% |  50.00% |
| 25   | Tentacruel         |    2 |   6.25% |  50.00% |
| 25   | Volcanion          |    2 |   6.25% |  50.00% |
| 25   | Mandibuzz          |    2 |   6.25% |  50.00% |
| 25   | Rotom-Wash         |    2 |   6.25% |   0.00% |
| 25   | Togekiss           |    2 |   6.25% |   0.00% |
| 25   | Gyarados           |    2 |   6.25% |   0.00% |
| 34   | Hatterene          |    1 |   3.12% | 100.00% |
| 34   | Registeel          |    1 |   3.12% | 100.00% |
| 34   | Darmanitan         |    1 |   3.12% | 100.00% |
| 34   | Lycanroc-Dusk      |    1 |   3.12% | 100.00% |
| 34   | Inteleon           |    1 |   3.12% | 100.00% |
| 34   | Raikou             |    1 |   3.12% | 100.00% |
| 34   | Primarina          |    1 |   3.12% | 100.00% |
| 34   | Guzzlord           |    1 |   3.12% | 100.00% |
| 34   | Keldeo             |    1 |   3.12% | 100.00% |
| 34   | Conkeldurr         |    1 |   3.12% | 100.00% |
| 34   | Snorlax            |    1 |   3.12% |   0.00% |
| 34   | Cloyster           |    1 |   3.12% |   0.00% |
| 34   | Dugtrio-Alola      |    1 |   3.12% |   0.00% |
| 34   | Ribombee           |    1 |   3.12% |   0.00% |
| 34   | Nidoking           |    1 |   3.12% |   0.00% |
| 34   | Crawdaunt          |    1 |   3.12% |   0.00% |
| 34   | Stakataka          |    1 |   3.12% |   0.00% |
| 34   | Crobat             |    1 |   3.12% |   0.00% |
| 34   | Ditto              |    1 |   3.12% |   0.00% |
| 34   | Umbreon            |    1 |   3.12% |   0.00% |
| 34   | Grimmsnarl         |    1 |   3.12% |   0.00% |

The King of UnderUsed

- To nobody's surprise, UU suspect candidate Aegislash has been completely dominating these last 2 weeks. It's potent set versatility has made it absolutely dangerous to prepare for in the builder, especially with the rise of its Swords Dance + King's Shield set, completely nullifying Zarude as an offensive check. Beyond this, its increasing merits in offensively pressuring Skarmory, Chansey, Slowking, and Cobalion has made it a popular choice while building. I used to poke fun at how Aegislash didn't get used much in snake despite being S rank, but here Aegislash has certainly been proving just how powerful it is both through stats and the games themselves. This dominance doesn't seem be working out in Aegislash's favor admittedly, as it's giving players reasons to want to remove it from the tier during this suspect test.

Give her a Chansey (and a Skarm)

- Chansey has absolutely skyrocketed in usage these last 2 weeks on the very popular chansey offenses as well, even in the presence of Aegislash and Conkeldurr. Its ability to wall so many threats including Primarina and Hydreigon, Pokemon Slowking struggles with, as well as provide slow pivoting and even matching up well against the infamous Zygarde-10% has made Chansey a very popular pick lately. It has even influenced trends; as shown by the bigger boom in usage of both Aegislash and Cobalion during week 2. Similarly, Skarmory has been an increasing popular pick, forming a strong defensive core with Chansey and enabling wallbreakers like Zygarde-10% with Spikes. It boasts a strong winrate too, showing how even in the face of threats like Salamence, Thundurus, and Aegislash, Skarmory still will have a strong place in the tier.

Tangrowth or Amoonguss?

- The ever so changing bulky grass types have both had solid results these first 2 weeks of UUPL. Tangrowth has accumulated much more usage thanks to its ability to counter zygarde-10% very well. Assault Vest sets have also been big for Tangrowth's usage, being a strong option into the likes of Primarina and Thundurus. Meanwhile, Amoonguss has had much more quiet success, winning 5/6 games these past 2 weeks. Though weaker to Excadrill and Zygarde-10%, its better matchup against Primarina and opposing Tangrowth can be valuable to the right team. As always, it's interesting to see how these two would compete, and I wouldn't be surprised if they switch places in usage by the end of the tour (mainly b/c that always happens).
New Innovations -My favorite thing about team tours is to see the innovation spawned by this tier's creative players. We're only 2 weeks in and some niche sets or Pokemon have seen use. Bulk Up Conkeldurr was a nice tech brought my the Ladies this week against Highways's stall team, where it was able to boost up and break once Salamence went down. Its surprisingly decent tankiness when invested can definitely let it take a hit by surprise. Speaking of tankiness, pdt brought a classic KM Pokemon in Guzzlord this week against Lily. Its ability to constantly soak special hits and accumulate chip through repeated Knock Offs and Dragon Tails was valuable in helping him win the game. Even with its dark-dragon competitor in Hydreigon in the tier, Guzzlord still has found a way to carve out a niche. Inteleon has been brought twice as a fast pivot to punish 361 speed mons like Azelf and Zygarde-10% and act as a decent wallbreaker with Expert Belt. It's not crazy but it has shown good reason to use it. Crobat has also surged for the same reason, getting huge usage in week 1 (though it hella dropped off week 2). Despite thudding into steels, it's ability to pivot into zarude and punish it with a U-turn is massively valuable against the ever so dominant monkey.

 

[udongirl]

I don't think we should ban Aegislash from UU.

Aegislash does have multiple useful sets that makes it hard to counter (such as ToxProtect, SubToxic, Choice Specs, Swords Dance); however, its poor Base 60 Speed stat and it struggling to break through certain opponents leads to the fact that a counter to ToxProtect as well as a revenge killer that is strong aginst it (such as Specs Hydreigon and LO Mamoswine) can check most of its sets without much struggle.

Although it is true that Aegislash can switch in against quite a lot of its opponents, it suffers from Knock Off due to it relying on Leftovers for recovery and Choice Specs for Wallbreaking. It is also reliant on Kings Shield, thus actually can only be a reliable counter to a limited amount of its opponents.

Not to mention, Aegislash’s commonly used STAB moves such as Flash Cannon and Shadow Ball lacks power, which makes it hard to break through teams alone. I had numerous occasions where the opposing Aegislash used Swords Dance on the turn I switched to Zarude, but most of time it didn't lead to Aegislash sweeping my whole team. This is a big difference compared to Kommo-o, which mispredicting it's sets such as its Belly Drum set for a Clangorous Soul set can potentialy lead it to sweep a whole team with ease.

Yes, SubToxic is annoying, and the fact it can't be easily checked by a specific pokemon does make it hard to beat, but it's also true that Aegislash does not have the potential to wall a whole team and end the match by itself.

As a result, I would want to vote Do Not Ban for this suspect test.

 

[pokemonisfun]

The question I ask during suspect tests is: is this pokemon broken (too strong) or uncompetitive (somehow makes the tier much worse, is pure hax based, basically some other justification besides the obvious "too strong.")

Couple points I think:

1) I think most people who want to ban Aegislash are saying it's too strong/broken - between it's many sets, it definitely has no single counter and has the ability to create many holes and sweep.

2) That is true and Aegislash is indeed currently the best Pokemon right now. You will lose some games to it not purely because your opponent outplays you, but because they were able to probe your team enough such that an Aegislash your opponent happened to have beats you.

Nevertheless, 1) and 2) are in my view simply traits of the best or top tier "S" rank Pokemon.

Usually, something should only be banned in my view if the metagame is in a state where you can't seem to prep for everything in the builder so you have at least a reasonable chance to win against the metagame.

In my view, you can still build good teams that don't lose to Aegislash or the meta so I think Aegislash is a top threat, not broken.

Take this game for example, prodigezz vs lyss in UUPL 2021 week 2: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8uu-612813

Yes the Aegislash team won, but not because Aegislash did broken things. The very much trending SD Kings Shield set was able to break through a Tangrowth sure, but not until later in the game when Tangrowth was no longer necessary (oppoising Zygarde was dead). This wasn't unwinnable from prodigezz by any means.

I freely acknowledge Aegislash has no counters and is a very capable threat in the metagame that can get KOs because you don't know the set. If the metagame was in a state where we need to ban threats so we can build reliable teams, then I'd strongly consider banning Aegislash. But I do think we can build in this meta without being unacceptably weak to any top threat.

Even offensive teams I've made like this, https://pokepast.es/a3d6b86485c0315a, which I beat askov in UU masters and Eternalsnowman in UUPL week 2, might have some weaknesses, but nothing on the viability ranking is really unplayable. Balance and stall theoretically have an even better time since they can run more defensive Pokemon.

I will vote do not ban.

Three brief points not directly related to Aegi:

1. I really don't see anything significantly wrong with the metagame right now.
2. I think that now that we have a clearly best Pokemon in the tier (in my view at least Aegi is the best), and we didn't have a clear best for a while (very few now think Thundurus is the best and it was the previous best before the rise of fast mons like Salazzle), might make people confused and think Aegislash is broken when it's only the best.
3. I think my method of figuring out if something is broken is very good because it's concrete: I encourage you to try it for yourself, if you can build or find decent teams that match up well with the meta, then the meta might very well be balanced. You don't have to agree with me that my team I posted is fine, you might think it's actually not good for whatever reason.

 

[umbry]

Planning on getting reqs sometime today or tomorrow but figured I'd still post my thoughts on the suspect.

Agree with most of pif's post, I really don't see aegislash as a broken element at all, mon's just very good at the moment. I believe there's enough counterplay in the metagame for most teams to consistently check aegi. Pretty much every set besides the choiced ones has at least 2 or 3 pokemon (or more) that effectively turn it into a liability, which leads me to believe aegislash isn't really close to being broken and is instead a healthy part of the metagame. Band/Specs are much easier to revenge kill in actual games since it's also a 60 base speed mon and those don't offer the same defensive utility like the other sets do. I don't think there's really one set that pushes it over the edge as sufficient counterplay should always be available, especially when taking into account one of the top threats in the metagame you can't just have one pokemon dealing with it.

SubToxic: Needs heavy support to put in the work consistently, very often relying on a partner having to hit a specific target and trick a choice scarf/sticky barb, otherwise pretty weak as a stand alone. Deadweight into common A rank mons such as zarude, defensive g-molt/primarina and classic balance cores like teleport chansey+guss, lack of close combat really hurts its offensive pressure as lots of other stuff can switch into it and threaten it, also struggles into adaptations such as whirlwind mandibuzz.

Mixed (CC/SB/Tox): Good utility set that fits on a variety of teams. Shares most checks with subtoxic with the exception of zarude/chansey being shakier, lack of substitute makes it more vulnerable to knock off users and amoonguss foul play, good portion of the metagame can reliably switch into it at least a couple times or more and force it out.

Swords Dance:

for teams that rely on some combination of zarude and chansey to check aegi, this set immediately disrupts those ideas.

Beating this kind of teamstyle is exactly what it's supposed to do, which shouldn't be as surprising for a pokemon with 140 base attack and close combat, aegislash targets the obvious weakness in chansey to find a free setup and zarude shouldn't be your main answer to it either. This one set abuses most recent meta trends and I believe is the iteration that makes most people think aegislash should go, I'd say I haven't found it that hard to check and it punishes lazy teambuilding more than anything else.

I'd like to talk about my week2 uupl game against TSR as in my opinion this is exactly what happened and I don't think the issues lies on aegislash being broken.
My matchup was amazing here as my opponent loaded a chansey-zarude team with max defense salamence as the only real aegislash switchin, which is a bit of a shaky check anyway but should get the job done as long as it can stay healthy and delay aegislash setup for long enough so that zarude and nidoking overwhelm the opposing team. Problem here is that it can't. Volt-Turn into aegislash gives it way too many opportunity to come in on chansey and deny recovery to the point where nidoking and salamence inevitably take significant damage while attempting to deal with thundurus, making them unable to tank boosted shadow sneaks, the other 2 pokemon that can potentially threaten aegislash with super effective moves are weak to ghost so those don't really work either.
It may look like unhealthy gameplay but truth is that team just isn't really equipped to deal with sd variants, for chansey structures in particular teams should have better ways to prevent the snowball as the blob gives it so many chances.

Amoonguss and mandibuzz are 2 options that reliably wall it and ohko with foul play, and are also good checks in general for most aegislash sets. Will-o-wisp rotom and both moltres also do a good enough job into it and probably should be used more, RH tangrowth is able to take a +4 CC after rocks and in the worst case it can trade 1 for 1, or shut it down completely with sleep powder, salamence acts in a similar way, I can go on but I think I got my point across. There really aren't too many pokemon that allow aegislash to constantly get free setups without getting punished besides chansey, unless it's carrying thunderwave, also given most of the tier can tank boosted shadow sneaks from full and revenge kill it pretty comfortably (i.e. most ground types, choice specs hydreigon, etc..).

Choice Band/Choice Specs: Both trade off their defensive utility for stronger immediate power, on paper scarier to switch into/scout but easier to check offensively as they have to lock in a move and neither can change back to shield form or get health back with leftovers. Both also have the option to run a very potent move in head smash/steel beam to beat their best counter in mandibuzz, however it means that 1) basically aegislash has chosen to kill itself and open up a safer path for a different threat and 2) relies on hitting their shot on target and can get very dicey if predictions go wrong. Either way it involves a risk and it feels like a fair way of packing a lure move, especially for banded versions as they have to give up on shadow claw. It's harder to find opportunities to hit the field with those sets and like I said earlier they rely heavily on predictions to make progress.

tldr; imo tier has enough counterplay both defensively and offensively for aegislash not to be broken, I'll be voting do not ban.

 

[Indigo Plateau]

Late post but I had a really busy week and I still want to share my thoughts. This post won’t go into a lot of details like I was planning to unfortunately.

I think Aegislash is an extremely unhealthy element in the tier right now. Some sets, like Mixes and SubTox, have a decent amount of hard counters and checks. However, I fully believe SS UU is at a point where matchups feel like roulette and this is due to how many things you’re forced to cover, and Aegislash is the main culprit of this. Having to cover the standard Mixed set, SubTox (which is arguably the worst set but mostly forces healing darks), the “new” physical sets in SD and CB, and even Specs, is borderline impossible. Sure, the “cover all” mentality in tiers is wrong. There are bound to be a couple Pokemon that your team struggles with or doesn’t want to face. If you look through recent replays of individuals or team tournaments though, there are a few examples of Aegi singlehandedly picking apart teams with the right sets.

Let’s take a very basic example, which is my biggest gripe with the tier: You slap a Zarude on your team hoping to soft check Aegi, and by virtue of not being able to use another Grass-type, you immediately face a downhill battle against Primarina archetypes. You add a Mandibuzz to help with physical sets, and you become weaker to Toxic variants. This is, imo, one of the most polarizing and gambling metagames we’ve had in recent memory. Even if this isn’t entirely due to Aegi (some can argue Zydog or others cause a similar effect), I ask one question: Is Aegislash beneficial to the tier?

The answer is simple for me: No. Aegi does a good job at limiting fat and offensive Steel-types are good, but the countermeasures it forces are too restricting and its “benefits” can be easily covered by other Pokemon. Forcing certain Pokemon on a team simply to counter one mon is simply unhealthy in my eyes. Ghost-types have historically been problematic in our tier, and Aegi adds another unhealthy element to this by virtue of King’s Shield. You can’t just offensively check Aegi because its base defenses are absurd and it can change form at will. This naturally forces unhealthy interactions with would-be checks like Zarude and Mandibuzz.

This wasn’t the best post but I wanted to drop two pennies and tl;dr Aegi has way too mamy sets to force healthy counterplay, forces unhealthy interactions via King’s Shield, and is the primary suspect of making this a gambling tier as opposed to other mons that only have 1-2 strong sets. I’ll be gunning for reqs tomorrow and very confidently believe banning Aegi will make SS UU a better tier.

 

[BigFatMantis]

I got reqs a couple of days ago and can pretty confidently say I am voting Do Not Ban, which probably isn't a surprise to many people.

I agree with mostly everything udongirl, pif, and umbry wrote above on why Aegislash is not really broken in the SS UU metagame, so there's no need to really repeat those same points.

What I did want to add though was a reminder to everyone on what the SS UU metagame looked like before we introduced Aegislash back into it. Simply put, it was a mess and everyone hated it, and nobody knew how to really fix it. We had all kinds of silly HO teams dominating the ladder, and while I am perfectly fine with that there are many other people that are not fine with it. We took a big gamble by re-testing Aegislash back into the tier and it was able to stabilize it for a long period of time.

I think SS UU is currently a very fun, very competitive, and very variable metagame where all playstyles can work and many different team combos can be used. I'm not saying removing Aegislash is going to change this but you never really know what will happen when you remove such a central Pokemon to the metagame. You can theorize all you want, but until it happens we aren't going to fully know the effects. It's possible that many other things will get out of control and the tier will spiral downward (Aegislash does stop a lot of cheese from happening), or it's possible there's no real difference. I'd prefer not to find out though and keep the metagame in the current state it's in, and maybe re-assess it after shifts in two weeks.

 

[romanji]

Top 10 rankings have been making the rounds in many other subforums so I might as well bring it here

1. nothing beats its set versatility, (Swords Dance, SD + King's Shield), SubToxic, King's Shield + Toxic, Choice Band/Specs, Substitute + 3 Attacks, Autotomize), letting it pick and choose its foes that it wants.

2.still puts in work with, takes advantage of the lowered Zarude usage as well
3.tang puts in so much work with both, and it has been right up there with Aegislash in usage
4.pivot set is much better with the lower zarude usage
5.defog sets are still very consistent, bulky physically defensive sets are good too, don't sleep on dd as well
6.while it is still a good u-turn bot, it can't really break through its checks anymore
7.best stealth rock user, even with the high Chansey, Aegi and Pert usage
8.thousand arrows and its Speed makes it way too broken plz ban
9.while it does compete with, Offensive sets are really good and versatile
10.still a good stealth rock setter while also being a consistent spinner. SD sets are good cleaners

Very Honorable Mention:you can't go into the teambuilder and simply ignore this, can deal with every one of these top mons with just stabs+knock off super easily

 

[Fusion Flare]

weirdly enough no one has mentioned this but yeah just in case

Aegislash was not banned from SWSH UU
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ess-stage-11-1-aegislash.3699360/post-9158027

as usual, doublade fans have been gigacucked

 

[FloopThePig]

I took a break from playing for a while and only recently got back to playing again around late Feb, and I’m surprised at how much fairer and balanced the meta is considering I found the meta to be pretty great months ago. I generally have an anti-ban stance and legitimately won’t mind if like half of UUBL gets unbanned, but I can’t deny how much fairer the tier feels. I also really like how suspects were handled. I don’t know if the UU council or leaders get paid but if they do then they deserve a raise or some type of reward for good decision-making.



Anyway, here are the rest of my observations on this new meta after coming back:

- People have mentioned how most teams consist of 3 to 4 defensive Pokémon to cycle around until you can safely bring a breaker in, and yeah it is a very safe and reliable playstyle that I see so much in the ladder. Most of the moves clicked during the first 20 turns are either hazards, hazard removal, Knock Off, pivot moves, recovery, Toxic/Scald/other status moves, or just hard switching into a defensive pivot because why the heck not. People only start making risky plays once enough setup (such as hazards, chip, or item removal) have been made.

- It’s way more defensive. Even half of the “offensive” Pokémon have a surprising amount of defensive value and longevity. The fact that Zarude can use a move that only heals for 25% while still hard switching and having a very high battle presence says a lot. In fact, when I said “teams with 3 to 4 defensive Pokémon to cycle around”, I am also including Pokémon like Zarude, Roost Hydreigon and Salamence, and even Black Sludge Nihilego.

- Offensive Pokémon with recovery are very good right now. Having a recovery move allows Pokémon like Zarude and Salamence to frequently hard switch into a good portion of the tier. If you are using an offensive Pokémon that has access to a recovery move, you should just use it. Some very underrated Pokémon that fall under this include offensive Slowking, Roserade, Starmie, and Togekiss.

- Plenty of offensive Pokémon with recovery moves that are unranked in the VR are actually usable in the tier. I’ve been used Decidueye, Sigilyph, and Porygon-Z and they put in a good amount of work in my games. I won’t say they are viable because they are outclassed by a lot of stuff, but you can find specific niches and matchups where those Pokémon shine. This was harder to do months ago since teambuilding was more restrictive that you can’t just run unranked Pokémon.

- Paralysis has become an underrated status in this meta of Scalds, Sludge Bombs, and Toxics. Most players have just stopped expecting it. I think that Jirachi and the Rotoms are better applying paralysis than toxics (for Jirachi) and burns (for the Rotoms) because a good portion of their counters are either immune to poison or don't mind burns. Zarude for example hates paralysis more than burns and toxics because getting that 25% parahax completely screws its future momentum. And parafishing is a very viable strategy with how pivot and momentum heavy games are.

- This might be just me, but I really hate using Choice Scarf in this meta. Speed control is not as relevant when you can just slap a defensive answer or wallbreaker with priority on your team. Once your opponent finds out you are scarfed, it becomes so much easier to play around given how your moves lack power. The biggest reasons to run a scarfer in this meta is if your team is really weak to Azelf, Thundurus, or Zygarde. Scarfers used to be more necessary back then until many Pokémon that is naturally fast/can boost speed was banned to UUBL (minus maybe Dracozolt since it was banned before Sand Rush).



In my opinion, this tier is close to perfect. My only critique is that the meta feels too safe that it creates repetitive playstyles and moves clicked, but I’m not sure if that’s really a bad thing or if it can be addressed.

 

[TailGlowVM]

The tier might have been close to perfect yesterday, but it may be turned upside-down by tomorrow - the king is back, and he brought his hippo.

(You also lost Volcanion from RU, if anyone's using that.)

 

[pokemonisfun]

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1546857860

Played a fun ladder game with Xceloh, some thoughts on it:

(I won't reveal sets until they become relevant in the game but they become evident as the game goes on)

Turn 1 I lead with bulu trying to catch a Thundurus U-turn/Volt Switch lead because I'm Scarf, end up getting prim which has no chance of staying in so I double switch to Scizor to try and remove Helmet so Bulu can spam more freely and because Scizor can at least burn a sleep turn as Amoong switches out

Turn 4 - Perhaps my opponent could have moonblasted here, it seems unlikely I'm going to keep Scizor in and risk dying and all my water resists can't possibly take a Moonblast very well - I get a lucky miss though

Turn 5, same logic as t1 to double

Turn 7, possible I shouldn't try to go Moltres here since he's very valuable vs Exca and Amoong, and Moltres does well vs him since they have a Prim with presumably no recovery

Turn 9/10 - example of pivoting, non scarf Krookodile can basically never really counter Thundurus since Thundurus almost always has coverage to kill him, but it works out here to pivot (bait my opponent into a move that my bulu can more easily switch into, plus, I didn't want them to volt away/uturn away until my Scarf Bulu could KO it)

T18 - opponent finally makes a double which is very effective in forcing my Moltres out and making me take needless Poison damage, the most important thing is Thundurus highly pressures my team as my Bulu doesn't run Synthesis

T20 - opponent has a few options, a nice prediction here helps them profit and importantly resets Amoong's ability to Spore

T23 - Opponent plays pretty optimally imo here, realizing that Necrozma can set up on Thundurus, he gets out at the best time for Hydreigon to start countering Necrozma

T29 - important Taunt from me so Necrozma can freely heal on Amoong without fearing Spore

T35 - poor head calc, I didn't expect tbolt to kill Bulu, perhaps sacking Moltres is an alternative here, seeing as Necrozma handily beats Scizor anyways. Not sure what the best move was for me

T39 - I go for the sweep and must hope to get an early wake which I don't

Quite an enjoyable game, would be interested to hear opponent's thoughts if they want to share anything

 

[justdrew]

So, as some of you may know, I voted ban on Aegislash and wasn't a happy camper when it stayed by a large majority. The meta, as a whole, was alright even with Aegislash around. But there were still some other issues when it came to what you had to prep for in the builder. And after shifts, there really aren't any solutions and just more problems. Here are my thoughts on building in SS UU right now:

Now you can make arguments for which Pokemon are the most dominant in the metagame, but there are 6 clear titans in my opinion.

​

Obviously we have Aegislash and Thundurus-T, two Pokemon which were suspected and both were voted to stay. Thundurus-T is very good post-shifts with Grass Knot probably getting more usage as it nukes Hippowdown and Swampert which Thundurus-T to get off more Volt Switches. Then we have Zygarde which is what this post will focus most on. Next is Goltres which is a staple on hyper offense and gets a good amount of usage on regular bulky offense. The there's Primarina which is such a pain in this ass with its Calm Mind variants which can win so easily when behind a Substitute. And finally, there's Scizor which was just freed and has dominated UU through metagames for two generations now.

This post isn't to propose a ban of any single one of these Pokemon. My recommendation for a ban is Zygarde since Aegislash and Thundurus-T are unlikely to be retested so soon. If you didn't read my interview of Lyss, shame on you. In all seriousness she is one of the biggest supporters of a Zygarde ban so I'm going to analyze what she said a bit.

In short, Zygarde makes building a nightmare. One of the examples of this is Amoonguss. Obviously Regenerator is a big part of UU but Amoonguss is significantly worse than it should be because of its secondary typing which prevents it from resisting Ground-type attacks. And now with Scizor in the tier, you can choose a Tangrowth which resists Thousand Arrows but doesn't eat U-Turn from Scizor, or Amoonguss which can absorb U-Turns but loses to Thousand Arrows with hazards up and just a little chip. Zygarde has one counter which is Tapu-Bulu, but still can weaken it with Toxic. Checks like Slowking and Mandibuzz can stomach Thousand Arrows at good health but then lose to Outrage when lower on health. While Aegislash breaks through its checks by running many different yet viable sets, Zygarde can do so with its standard (only) Choice Banded set. It can even break Chansey with Super Power. Zygarde is very valuable speed control in a pretty slow tier. It not only has 115 base speed which makes it one of the fastest viable Pokemon in the tier, but it also has Extreme Speed allowing it to revenge kill a whole swarm of Pokemon. It's utility as a Ground-type serves as great counter play to Thundy. Zygarde forces you to run awkward items like Shuca Berry Cobalion and Eject Button Amoonguss which have other uses, but are dominantly for Zygarde. It is just too easy to pair Zygarde with amazing momentum like Chansey, Slowking, Zarude, Mandibuzz, etc. and just wipe pout opposing teams.

Here's a direct quote from the interview: "It has also been insane in games to me. While it doesn't always have the strongest showing in UUPL for example, both because it's sometimes not played well and some others it faces a combination of things that limit it very hard, I've seen games coming down to how many outrage turns and it's just ridiculous. This meta having 2 (some would even argue 1) good Fairy-types means that during the midgame, you can safely click outrage and get a ton of progress off it, just to get bailed by a 2 turn end when they switch out in favor of their Steel-type. Seeing games come down to that is just sad to me."

Zygarde has become so annoying to prep for, in addition to Aegislash, Scizor, Thundurus-T, Primarina, and Moltres-Galar. Building in this tier is a nightmare right now. I am in support of a poll which will garner the Pokemon the community would like to potentially suspect. I think it's important we wait a few weeks for the meta to settle after the shifts before any action is taken though. These are just the surface thoughts and examples, but it is clear we need to talk about the new developing meta and decide how to leave this tier before Generation 9 comes.

Thank you for reading and have a nice day/night!

 

[TheTraininator]

You know, with Aegislash’s prominence, the return of resident Bullet Puncher Scizor + the fatass hippo, and the massive influx of Zygoge, does anyone else feel like this current meta may not be as favorable to Terrakion as the one it was banned in? The Pokémon that it tends to get compared to, Lycanroc Dusk, has also fallen off a lot in this metagame, and although they’re not 1-to-1 the same or anything, I feel that’s also worth noting. Maybe it’s just me, and if people disagree feel free to let me know, but I think Terrakion may be worth considering for a retest down the line if the meta stabilizes like this.

 

[pokemonisfun]

Putting my survey answers here...for fun? Discussion? So others will? Idk.

Survey here: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdahwcVS2SeEIidI3tV4VCgF8u3LxGemA07vXTljozrxidBoQ/viewform

I don't really put a huge amount of thought into this question, I frankly always enjoy playing Pokemon or else I wouldn't play it! For me, I try to reflect on the last survey, and I'm pretty sure I answered 7 or 8 last time we had a chance. I definitely don't think think I've been liking it less as I think building with Scizor and Hippowdon is new and fun and I don't mind the loss of Volcanion. So I give it a solid 8.

This question I take a bit more thoughtfully, as I think competitiveness is a more meaningful concept in tiering than enjoyment. So I try to think of how easily I can build teams when answering this question. If I can build good teams that have good MU with most of the meta and nearly al of the top meta, then I rate this higher. To me, competitiveness means the opposite of "Match up fish" - a competitive metagame is one where you can build solid teams that cover most of the meta. It also means you can build many different type of teams - i.e., you can regularly build good teams with mons outside of S/A rank in Viability Ranking thread.

I'm not really one to give out all my teams but I think teams like this: https://pokepast.es/c1e7e49888934496 show that you can build for most of the meta and have strong winning strategies (voltturn) and even some special ideas (Choice Band Zarude is good but uncommon)

Sometimes you suspect mons because they are too strong, sometimes because they are too haxy. Goltres is a bit of both but the fact it can pretty easily flinch down checks like Chansey and Nihilego (especially with Sitrus Berry gaining steam to give extra Berserk boosts) means there is an uncompetitive element to Goltres for me. I also do think HO is quite good right now so Goltres is having more opportunities.

Why not suspect a Pokemon like Meteor Beam Automize Celesteela for similar reasons? Well, Celesteela doesn't have that passive set up with Berserk and it's a bit slower and less bulky on the special side so it cannot set up as easily vs say a Thundurus. It's just a little bit worse at most things to me.

All that said, I'm a firm no ban on Goltres (its just not good enough for me), but I'm absolutely fine with a test.

I do think Scizor is our new best Pokemon and I love the 3 attack (Knock off, Uturn, bullet punch) + Roost set but it doesn't really have much sweeping potential without Swords Dance in my view. I can see it becoming broken very soon but a couple techs like Incinerate thundurus, slight speed creeps (like Necrozma with heat wave outrunning Adamant Scizor, Timid Choice Specs Aegislash outrunning Adamant Scizor) and obviously a huge surge in Moltres makes me think Scizor is still being adapted to.

Would banning this make building easier? I'm not sure, I do love slapping this Pokemon on teams for speed control and a great Volt Switch immunity since you threaten to OHKO Thundurus and Rotom H/W from 100%. But as it is, Thousand Arrows is only resisted really by a couple Grass types and beyond that, you have to use some uncommonly bulky Pokemon like physically defensive Umbreon to tank it.

But as I already mentioned, I don't think building is too hard and I do think Hippowdon and Scizor will limit Zygarde greatly so I have no desire to see it leave. If building became harder, I might consider this as one of the first mons to go.

I would like to have a consensus that the tier is fine before unbanning anything. Just to make things go clearly in one direction.

I mean I wouldn't stress over this but if there was ever a time to do a complex ban (a not Pokemon ban, although I know Hogg posted guidelines before that this wouldn't be complex technically), it makes sense now: it's clearly the breaking element on Zygarde and it's only on one Pokemon. this is what I thought we ask when to do these specific bans so yeah this is more of a thought exercise than something I'd spend my energy on pursuing.

Chansey is extremely good as always and always seems to escape suspect discussion, but I at least don't think she's clearly not broken.

Thanks for posting the survey!!

 

[hariyana grande]

ok i'll chime in too. i'll be less formative with my post but i'll just share my own thoughts

i think the meta is really fresh and fun right now. i genuinely believe the drops were godsends and stuff like hippo and scizor really do ease building (although we now have to account for scizor obviously) I'm not sure how i feel about the competitiveness of the tier rn because i think its hard to gauge things when the meta is still changing, but i'd say at least a fair 7/10


while i think goltres can be extremely unreliable with its rest talk set being the most coinflippy shit when considering that sometimes ur banking on hitting a hurricane through a sleep talk, stuff like its double dance set can be extremely haxy, on both sides. With hurricanes notoriously shit accuracy, but also with fiery wraths chance to flinch through and beat things that goltres definitely shouldnt be beating 1v1, like chansey/nihilego. This can lead to some incredibly frustrating gameplay patterns in which you end up crossing ur fingers hoping that ur checks don't get flinched or you just lose. It's also obviously incredibly hard to break and ohko/prevent it from setting up an agility and blowing holes in ur team in the first place. I full support a suspect on goltres and i rly hope it gets banned


i think scizor is definitely at least a top 3 mon rn (alongside hippo/aegislash idk what order i'd put them in) but i am fairly confident it is completely balanced. People are already using random fire moves on mons such as incinerate thundy as pif mentioned (wouldnt be surprised if we start seeing like fire fang hippo or more flamethrowers from nidoking/hydreigon), and there has also been a crazy uptick in fire types in general. i think this is healthy for the meta. There's simply going to be a ton of adaptations when a new top and threatening mon drops, and i think thats fine (the meta pre-shifts was so ass anyway lol). you could maybe argue the adjustment with random fire moves/increased fire type mons is a bit drastic and unhealthy, but frankly i think this is a bit of an overreaction by people and i think scizor is manageable enough that u dont have to use a fire type + 3 random flamethrowers on every team.

all this being said, we've really only seen people use 3 attacks + roost, or 2 attacks roost sd, and ive hardly seen people explore outside of this. i think stuff like spdef defog can be good (it kinda defogs vs like every rocker), or even something like scarf to catch off zarudes/etc (playing the same way like a scarf bulu, kinda cheesy). with some more exploring with scizor in this meta i could be wrong as the versatility in it could show to be too much.



zygarde was one of the biggest headaches for me pre shifts, but now we have hippo, which completely walls this mon with hardly any defense investment. the inclusion of hippo in this tier makes me not feel forced to use a grass type on every team which is great! (why the fuck did i have to do this to manage zygarde lol). Now, if you dont want to use hippo, i still think grass types can be very beneficial for a team just for this mon, or at least a mandibuzz even. Also, if zygarde is chipped, scizor being able to come in on t arrows/outrage and threaten it with a bullet punch that does about ~60% (given the scizor is around max hp/max attack) is another cushion that teams can fall back on in a pinch. Main point though, I just think with hippo very likely going to be one of the top mons, zygardes usage will drop substantially, so it will definitely be something you consider in the builder, but it wont be as obnoxious as before

dont have much of an opinion on retesting any uubl mons rn, i've thought about lati and terrak being back in the tier but i think they'd still be too strong personally (think i actually said i wanted a retest on terrak in the poll but i regret that lol).

tldr: goltres is fucking dumb and should get a suspect asap, scizor is completely fine (for now), zygarde will be manageable now with the new drops being able to check it defensively and offensively

 

[romanji]

I think Galarian Moltres is definitely an extremely restricting presence in the teambuilder and in game. Celesteela really isn’t seen as much due to Skarmory being preferred due to it setting Spikes which are super valuable in the tier atm. Mamoswine isn’t as relevant as it once was due to Scizor’s existence. Nothing resisting the combination of Fiery Wrath and Hurricane is super annoying, as most of the time you just have to get lucky by not having your Chansey or Nihilego getting flinched or it missing a Hurricane to prevent a sweep. Goltres’ bulk is also extremely annoying, as it can always survive a hit like Nihilego’s Power Gem, only for it to benefit from a Berserk boost and procking the Sitrus Berry. It absolutely should be suspected and banned.

To touch on the other mons in the survey, Scizor is now the king of the tier and I don’t see much wrong with it yet. Zydog really got hurt by the shifts, since it got a really good check and a huge counter with Hippowdon. Also keep the UUBLs banned, they’re all way too good. BAN ACCUPRESSURE!

 

[BigFatMantis]

Galarian Moltres is fine, you should just all use Diancie, Morpeko, and Dedenne more.

More seriously though Galarian Moltres only ever uses two attacks, it shouldn't be THAT hard to deal with it. And while using Dedenne is admittedly a joke, Morpeko actually is a decent niche pick in the current meta, and Diancie has been extremely underrated for a while given that it totally and completely full stops Galarian Moltres, Kanto Moltres, and also significantly helps with Hydreigon (and full stops it if it's not Flash Cannon). I encourage you all to use it more.

Anywhodizzledoo, here is a stall team that Crushy and I made together for the current meta: https://pokepast.es/7e08fd8b8e434b6f

It started out as a Hippo stall but then was just too hard to work with Hippo, though I'm sure a version with Hippo can work well. Notice there is a Diancie here - that will make sure Galarian Moltres will never give you any issues whatsoever! Since a suspect GMolt is probably coming anyways since the current popular wave seems to be saying that it's broken (though Aegislash was more constrictive imo, but also just barely fine), anyone who likes fat teams can try this team out.

Also one thing I notice with the current SS UU tier is there aren't THAT many decent Dark resists. This allows people to run a cheesier mono-Dark GMolt on their teams. Free Terrakion to punish this decision (or test it at least). Just as I think there is nothing wrong with testing GMolt (shouldn't get banned but testing is fine), there shouldn't be anything wrong with testing Terrakion just to see how it works out. It could end up being just fine and actually being a positive addition to the tier - any comments to the contrary are just theoretical until we actually see it on a suspect ladder with the current meta. Though I do think a re-test of a UUBL like Terrakion should come before testing anything else out that we may think is broken.

Have a good Easter everyone.

*EDIT* someone asked me to please post a replay with the stall team I linked so here it is: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8uu-1548728312-57lgp2hwxhse84tg0m5yu15yx04wtoepw