Metagame np: SS Ubers Stage 8 - Ridin' Dirty (Calyrex-Shadow Suspect Test)

+3 252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Draining Kiss vs. 248 HP / 188+ SpD Yveltal: 252-298 (55.3 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (You're likely going to lose at least one Pokémon while going to Yveltal, and one Nasty Plot later, you get this.)
If you let Caly get to plus 3 before you even go to yvel without having sucker, sneak or a scarfed revenge killer, chances are you deserve to lose.

I'm not remotely competent at this gen of Ubers at all (evidence in my poor reqs records) and I actively dislike it. However, I cannot see why Caly-S being banned would improve that and nor can I see why it should be banned. In all my games getting reqs, Caly was the one thing I had very few issues with - one person used sub disable on me but once it's revealed it becomes easy enough to play around. There are plenty of other threats in Ubers that gave me far more trouble - in particular Zygarde and Meteor Beam Etern.

Caly-S clearly puts a lot of pressure on building and playing - if you don't prepare for it or let your checks get worn down then you'll lose to it. That is the same with any high power offensive threat there's ever been in Ubers, for example if you let your steel type get worn down in XY Ubers, chances are you get swept by Xern. This is part of what makes Ubers fun (at least for me) - the fact that if you make mistakes, you lose really easily. It also rewards good play - if you successfully force in Yveltal and wear it down/KO it, Caly wins. Personally, that is the only attractive bit about this meta - it requires careful play, wearing down checks whilst keeping yours healthy, as well as timing when to try to make a play to get a KO, in order to win in a lot of games.

In terms of precedence, comparing Calyrex to Zacian makes no sense - it doesn't by any means induce the same 50/50s that Zacian did, plus it doesn't need an otherwise severely low-viability mon to check it (looking at you Quag [and Tangrowth to an extent]). Zacian-H became a 50/50 of what banded attack was coming out and which mon could take it whilst Zacian-C was just Assurance 50/50s. Caly doesn't do that; a tricked Yveltal is still a check to a certain extent, plus it's not like non-Specs Caly OHKOs everything else, even NDM can survive a hit in a pinch (assuming SpDef) and OHKO with Knock.

252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 262-310 (65.8 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Continuing on the theme of comparing Caly to other banned mons, it is far less bulky than anything else that's been banned in Ubers - Zacian (either forme) could come in on a dragon move, or just take a low power attack from a defensive mon. Caly is less bulky meaning it by and large requires free switches (either by slow u-turn or sack) and even if it comes in on a weak attack such as Etern's Mystical Fire it still takes 20% and, in that case, a SpAtk drop as well as hazard damage.

the oppressiveness (polarization) Calyrex-S causes in the builder, coupled with the unfavorable 50-50 mind games it can pull off due to running over a half-dozen viable sets, is the reason why many SS mains, myself included, would prefer to play a Caly-less meta
Seriously, it's easy enough to just check a damage roll on Yveltal to see whether it's Specs or Scarf - hazards get rid of sash (should be able to tell whether sash is there based on the way your opp plays their Caly and hazards) plus coming in on hazards shows you lefties so you can instantly see if it's a Sub variant. Genuinely don't see any real mind games until SubDisable is revealed and tbh I don't see that set as particularly good - based on my interactions with it, it can be played around.

Long story short - I don't really see what all the fuss is about. As far as I can see, Caly-S promotes skilful play by forcing players to keep their checks healthy and limit Caly's opportunities to come in, much the same as any powerful threat there has ever been in Ubers. I will obviously be voting No Ban and would urge anyone who bothers reading this to do so.

on that note my proposed solution is just ignoring cartridge and allowing arceus :)
Would actually fix it, anyone gonna make NatDex Ubers?
 

GeniusFromHoenn

is a Tiering Contributor
UPL Champion
With just hours before the Calyrex-S suspect test concludes, this is the final post I will be making on the subject matter. As a player, I respect much of what you have to say Aberforth. However, there were some parts in your post that completely misconstrue what SiTuM and I were trying to get at by showcasing those replays, so allow me to take the time to elucidate some valuable insights:

"First and foremost, the idea that teams have to run 4 pokemon to be solid against Calyrex is farcical. I quoted Manaphy listing 4 combinations of two mons (all involving Yveltal) that should take on most if not all Calyrex running around, the idea that every team requires Ho-oh + Marshadow + Blissey in addition to Yveltal in order to be safe against Calyrex is just not an accurate reflection of the metagame."

Manaphy listed combinations of Yveltal + Marshadow OR Ho-Oh OR Blissey to be the most popular countermeasures against Calyrex-S. The games SiTuM and I posted demonstrated scenarios where these cores failed to do their job functionally because Calyrex-S possessed various tools to overcome its best checks in a vacuum. Never once did we mention that a player needs to run all four (or even three) of those checks to be safe against Calyrex-S, as that does not reflect the metagame. As has been said numerous times on this thread, Calyrex-S forces adverse interactions with its best checks and forces its opponent to design their game plan around what set they lose to the fastest. It is farcical to assume that the replays we picked ignore all player decision-making in the games. Suppose a player is in an optimal position to win with Calyrex-S. In that case, it is because Calyrex-S influences the decisions BOTH players make and why the user is more often than not in an advantageous position. The risk-reward scenarios mostly favor the Calyrex-S user, as evidenced by the 13 different tournament replays we posted. Furthermore, I find it contradictory how you claim people winning with Calyrex-S played "correctly," but when you lose using it, it's because you played poorly.

"Games being decided entirely in the builder is a bad thing for any metagame, and my opinion is that Calyrex's effect on the meta is such that games are decided in the builder less, unless you actively choose to go fishing with a Calyrex set that basically begs for very specific Yveltal as the only counterplay, which in my opinion is very unreliable. If Calyrex was completely useless against common good cores like Ho-oh + Yveltal, it would be down alongside things like Lando-I or Caly-I in viability. Counterplay doesnt mean that a pokemon is invalidated as a threat and cannot win any game, it means that the games will come down to decisions the players make."

We'll have to agree to disagree here. You previously mentioned that you were unsympathetic toward players who ran Fast Utility Yveltal as their only Calyrex-S counterplay.

"My sympathy to people losing because they decided a fast Yveltal with no other form of Calyrex-S counterplay on their team will make them solid against it, followed by running into a Calyrex-S designed to break through Yveltal, is very small indeed."

People who elect to run Fast Yveltal do so because they do not wish to lose the Hyper Offense match-up, which becomes quite tricky when you cannot easily remove a speed control deterrent like Sticky Webs, for example. This is a choice made in the builder. Suppose you think the inclusion of Calyrex-S in the current metagame causes games to be less frequently decided in the builder. In that case, I implore you to check out virtually any game featuring a slower Yveltal as the only defogger vs. Webs HO and see how that match-up goes. (Slow Yveltal teams can't get Webs off and will generally not be able to outlast the offensive onslaught by Webs HO teams). If anything, the inclusion of Calyrex-S results in MORE games being decided in the builder. If you do not run the combination of checks Manaphy listed, you'll ultimately find yourself in unfavorable positions against Calyrex-S.


"I still find SS ubers fun, and despite the quote that Hoenn has seemingly pulled out of nowhere, the general Ubers community is in agreement with me. The idea that SS ubers has become unfun is one that is shared by a relatively loud minority of the Ubers community, and the idea that the meta is solved is one I find almost laughable in its hyperbole. Disable was essentially not used until the start of this UPL, and the Ubers metagame has experienced significant shifts since the Zacian-H ban, and will almost certainly do so again with SCL looming.

I made my personal stance clear on what I am voting and why in my last post, I am making this more to address the arguments made on this page thus far that were based on replays as well as just getting some of my thoughts out.

Also finally, to address a comment BasedWhat made, we will not be banning anything else should Calyrex-S be banned. If the following meta is unpopular and would need tiering action, the only option that would be on the table would be a resuspect of Calyrex to the metagame. Ubers must maintain a high ceiling for acceptable bans, and anything underneath Calyrex would very clearly not reach that threshold"

I probably took offense to this part of your post. As a tier leader, you're conveying only a "loud minority" of users find SS Ubers unenjoyable when this simply isn't true. When the average enjoyability of SS Ubers is ~6.2/10, that is not indicative of an enjoyable metagame in the slightest - it is below average. The metagame is solved; essentially, every viable team combination is well-known at this point, with only minor item variations making crucial differences in gameplay. In an attempt to innovate, players leave themselves wide open to losing to more standard structures. As BasedWhat? mentioned, playing the current generation is like rolling a dice and seeing one of six common structures you'll run into, all of which have fairy sequential and linear gameplay (see the generic Lando/Ogre/Marsh or Caly-S team that is frequently brought so often to tours and ladder). Speaking of BasedWhat?:

"If we need to ban offensive Yveltal and/or Mewtwo next, we'll do that too (obvious hyperbole btw). "

His post was clearly an example of hyperbole. Let's be realistic, and don't expect to see the metagame have any marked shifts with the inclusion of Calyrex-S; it's stale, unenjoyable to many, and solved. The best we can hope for is using an unorthodox item or "creative" mon for the meme culture

Nevertheless, I digress, but for those of you about to make the most pivotal tiering decision in Gen 8 Ubers, here are the quality pro-ban and anti-ban posts you should hopefully base your decision off of:

Pro-Ban: BasedWhat?, Reje, LBN, Manaphy*, Eledyr, Samba adv and myself
Anti-Ban: Fc, Aberforth, Manaphy* (his stance is more pro-ban than anti-ban)
I have significant issues with the posts largely based on replays that were posted by Situm and Hoenn. I'll get to the points I want to make about the replays themselves in a moment.





First and foremost, the idea that teams have to run 4 pokemon to be solid against Calyrex is farcical. Situm quoted Manaphy listing 4 combinations of two mons (all involving Yveltal) that should take on most if not all Calyrex running around, the idea that every team requires Ho-oh + Marshadow + Blissey in addition to Yveltal in order to be safe against Calyrex is just not an accurate reflection of the metagame.

Anyway, the replays that both Hoenn and Situm have chosen are presented in such a way that ignores all player decision making in the games. They are acting like it is Calyrex and Calyrex alone that makes the difference, when in reality it came down to decisions made in the game, which is (IMO) a good thing. Games being decided entirely in the builder is a bad thing for any metagame, and my opinion is that Calyrex's effect on the meta is such that games are decided in the builder less, unless you actively choose to go fishing with a Calyrex set that basically begs for very specific Yveltal as the only counterplay, which in my opinion is very unreliable. If Calyrex was completely useless against common good cores like Ho-oh + Yveltal, it would be down alongside things like Lando-I or Caly-I in viability. Counterplay doesnt mean that a pokemon is invalidated as a threat and cannot win any game, it means that the games will come down to decisions the players make.

For every example of Calyrex breaking through teams, replays can be provided where it is underwhelming, or replays can be provided with other ubers doing similar things (think Kyogre's various sets, or for a more direct example, my Eternatus against Suapah). The replays show Calyrex's highest points without acknowledging that those are not the standard instances, and are instead good showcases of players playing well with a good pokemon (or, in some replays, people playing badly around a good pokemon). The replays also do not convince me that Calyrex exists at a power level above the aformetioned mons, most especially NDM/Xern/Groudon and Kyogre, who all are very dangerous threats even against prepared teams, because this is the power level we choose to play at. Yes, Calyrex wins in most of the replays that were hand picked to show it doing well, but the posts talking about them do not convince me that it is exceptional in doing so, especially in this ubers metagame.

Even in games where Calyrex has arguably the perfect set, it can and will lose depending on player interaction. In my game against Luthier I brought Sash Caly with Disable against a Yveltal that had only one attacking move, and no other ghost resist. He managed to outplay me with his Yveltal and win despite me literally rolling a perfect Calyrex-Yveltal matchup. These are the sorts of games where pro-ban players will point out the ways I could have played better, but the games where Calyrex does win they will pretend that the losing player had no outs because Calyrex was simply too powerful. It's disingenuous and dishonest. Calyrex promotes skillful in game play while (IMO) not being too restrictive on the builder, and this is something I believe is good for the tier. I also just do not agree with the idea that Calyrex is broken, and am thus voting Do Not Ban.



I still find SS ubers fun, and despite the quote that Hoenn has seemingly pulled out of nowhere, the general Ubers community is in agreement with me. The idea that SS ubers has become unfun is one that is shared by a relatively loud minority of the Ubers community, and the idea that the meta is solved is one I find almost laughable in its hyperbole. Disable was essentially not used until the start of this UPL, and the Ubers metagame has experienced significant shifts since the Zacian-H ban, and will almost certainly do so again with SCL looming.

I made my personal stance clear on what I am voting and why in my last post, I am making this more to address the arguments made on this page thus far that were based on replays as well as just getting some of my thoughts out.

Also finally, to address a comment BasedWhat made, we will not be banning anything else should Calyrex-S be banned. If the following meta is unpopular and would need tiering action, the only option that would be on the table would be a resuspect of Calyrex to the metagame. Ubers must maintain a high ceiling for acceptable bans, and anything underneath Calyrex would very clearly not reach that threshold.
 
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Ben Simmons

Banned deucer.
If you let Caly get to plus 3 before you even go to yvel without having sucker, sneak or a scarfed revenge killer, chances are you deserve to lose.

I'm not remotely competent at this gen of Ubers at all (evidence in my poor reqs records) and I actively dislike it. However, I cannot see why Caly-S being banned would improve that and nor can I see why it should be banned. In all my games getting reqs, Caly was the one thing I had very few issues with - one person used sub disable on me but once it's revealed it becomes easy enough to play around. There are plenty of other threats in Ubers that gave me far more trouble - in particular Zygarde and Meteor Beam Etern.

Caly-S clearly puts a lot of pressure on building and playing - if you don't prepare for it or let your checks get worn down then you'll lose to it. That is the same with any high power offensive threat there's ever been in Ubers, for example if you let your steel type get worn down in XY Ubers, chances are you get swept by Xern. This is part of what makes Ubers fun (at least for me) - the fact that if you make mistakes, you lose really easily. It also rewards good play - if you successfully force in Yveltal and wear it down/KO it, Caly wins. Personally, that is the only attractive bit about this meta - it requires careful play, wearing down checks whilst keeping yours healthy, as well as timing when to try to make a play to get a KO, in order to win in a lot of games.

In terms of precedence, comparing Calyrex to Zacian makes no sense - it doesn't by any means induce the same 50/50s that Zacian did, plus it doesn't need an otherwise severely low-viability mon to check it (looking at you Quag [and Tangrowth to an extent]). Zacian-H became a 50/50 of what banded attack was coming out and which mon could take it whilst Zacian-C was just Assurance 50/50s. Caly doesn't do that; a tricked Yveltal is still a check to a certain extent, plus it's not like non-Specs Caly OHKOs everything else, even NDM can survive a hit in a pinch (assuming SpDef) and OHKO with Knock.

252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 262-310 (65.8 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Continuing on the theme of comparing Caly to other banned mons, it is far less bulky than anything else that's been banned in Ubers - Zacian (either forme) could come in on a dragon move, or just take a low power attack from a defensive mon. Caly is less bulky meaning it by and large requires free switches (either by slow u-turn or sack) and even if it comes in on a weak attack such as Etern's Mystical Fire it still takes 20% and, in that case, a SpAtk drop as well as hazard damage.



Seriously, it's easy enough to just check a damage roll on Yveltal to see whether it's Specs or Scarf - hazards get rid of sash (should be able to tell whether sash is there based on the way your opp plays their Caly and hazards) plus coming in on hazards shows you lefties so you can instantly see if it's a Sub variant. Genuinely don't see any real mind games until SubDisable is revealed and tbh I don't see that set as particularly good - based on my interactions with it, it can be played around.

Long story short - I don't really see what all the fuss is about. As far as I can see, Caly-S promotes skilful play by forcing players to keep their checks healthy and limit Caly's opportunities to come in, much the same as any powerful threat there has ever been in Ubers. I will obviously be voting No Ban and would urge anyone who bothers reading this to do so.



Would actually fix it, anyone gonna make NatDex Ubers?
The Calyrex Conundrum

You need Yveltal to stay healthy throughout almost the entire game to check Calyrex-S, right? But then you lose access to your best form of hazard removal or knocking off HDB (which can help you force progress via hazard stacking). You run a fast Yveltal as your only counterplay and risk getting bodied by your standard specs Caly if you get some chip or loose boots or get statused (which happens in most Ubers games). You run a slow Yveltal as your counterplay and never have a chance to get off hazards vs opposing webs HO (good webs HO will carry the tools to beat the most common defoggers in the tier like Yvel and Ho-Oh). Double Defog cores are susceptible to basically all of Caly's common partners. It can't be blamed on the player when they're losing in the builder by having to dedicate up to 4 (if not 5) slots to deal with most Caly sets + its common offense partners. The sample teams made by the Ubers Council & posted by TrueNora exemplify my point when you see that most of them have fast Yveltal + Marsh as their only counterplay. Finally, if you try stacking too many Caly checks on one team, you inevitably make it weaker to things like Don and Zekrom. I am not saying Caly is necessarily broken (it's not, at least in my mind), but what it does in the builder and in practice is really unhealthy for the current metagame.

I implore all of you on the fence to consider this conundrum when deciding to make a vote in the next few hours. Hoenn's and SiTuM's posts really showcase the stronghold Calyrex-S has in even high-level tour games. Ladder is not representative of the current meta when most people are spamming the ill-formed sample teams, most of which are severely outdated or bad.
 

Manaphy

Throughout heaven and earth, I alone am family guy
is a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributor
Hey everyone,

Just wanted to throw this quick post up before the voting actually starts:

1.) While my very detailed post may have given you the impression I will vote ban, I will be voting do not ban. I think Calyrex has improved in how it's being used in the past year, but I certainly do not think it's banworthy.

2.) For those of you reading the thread and are undecided: I would implore you to read the detailed arguments on both sides in this thread before making a decision.
I do not want people voting ban just because they think Calyrex-S is a scary strong mon that's fast. Just because a mon looks like it should be banned doesn't mean it actually needs to.
Think before you vote!

3.) I think the opinions of the playerbase here are important. Almost all of the Ubers council as well as most of the top players support the do not ban vote, while many of the ban supporters such as reje and fatfighter2 have changed their minds recently.

4.) When getting reqs for this suspect, how many games of yours actually came down to Calyrex-S? I would expect it to be a minority of the time. Did Calyrex force you to make some awkward plays sometimes? Sure. Did the better player usually win (excluding horrible hax)? I think the answer would be yes.
 
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Rhmsitb

is a Tiering Contributor
UPL Champion
Caly might not be broken right now and probably did not deserve suspect testing when new gen is going to be released soon. But the way the ubers council has acted over the caly thing is ridiculous.

Second last survey results :
Averaging a 6.3/10 it's not much higher than previous which had it around a 6.
(no suspect test)
Latest survey results :
The overall ranking actually went down, being ~6/10 compared to the 6.3/10 last time.
(they are suspect testing now)

And now when the suspect test is declared, it is really funny how hard they're trying to manipulate people's minds to not ban.
I am in favour of do not ban but this attitude of council is forcing me to vote ban.
 
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I do not think Calyrex-Shadow should be banned. I know it's overpowered but Ubers is meant to be filled with overpowered pokemon. Marshadow is an amazing counter if has focus sash itself and if calyrex has no focus sash marshadow can easy shadow sneak. Yveltal also walls calyrex and can sucker punch to easy ko it. Even then, Calyrex's options are almost limitless and can threaten with Substitute+Nasty Plot/Calm Mind to potentially get a sweep. Also, Calyrex almost never runs max HP so by many neutral hits (even from uu pokemon) it gets 3HKOed often or even 2HKOed, so it's bulk isn't too great (why it runs focus sash). However more pokemon are forced to use scarf to outspeed it due to a base 150 Speed Stat. (it's also very happy without Darkrai).
 
I do not think Calyrex-Shadow should be banned. I know it's overpowered but Ubers is meant to be filled with overpowered pokemon. Marshadow is an amazing counter if has focus sash itself and if calyrex has no focus sash marshadow can easy shadow sneak. Yveltal also walls calyrex and can sucker punch to easy ko it. Even then, Calyrex's options are almost limitless and can threaten with Substitute+Nasty Plot/Calm Mind to potentially get a sweep. Also, Calyrex almost never runs max HP so by many neutral hits (even from uu pokemon) it gets 3HKOed often or even 2HKOed, so it's bulk isn't too great (why it runs focus sash). However more pokemon are forced to use scarf to outspeed it due to a base 150 Speed Stat. (it's also very happy without Darkrai).
"Marshadow is an amazing counter if has focus sash itself and if calyrex has no focus sash marshadow can easy shadow sneak."
Sash Marshadow is bad and only run by noobs + getting marshadow onto the field is risky considering how easily calyrex-s forces out a ton of mons, and can get a sub up. Hazards are also everywhere too. There are a ton of misleading points in your post that I cant be bothered to dive into because i lack time but please actually read the informative posts on this thread rather than speaking based on what you experience on low ladder and in theory

"it's also very happy without Darkrai"
+2 252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Draining Kiss vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Darkrai: 284-336 (101 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

great counter.
 

Manaphy

Throughout heaven and earth, I alone am family guy
is a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributor
Caly might not be broken right now and probably did not deserve suspect testing when new gen is going to be released soon. But the way the ubers council has acted over the caly thing is ridiculous.

Second last survey results :
Averaging a 6.3/10 it's not much higher than previous which had it around a 6.
(no suspect test)
Latest survey results :
The overall ranking actually went down, being ~6/10 compared to the 6.3/10 last time.
(they are suspect testing now)

And now when the suspect test is declared, it is really funny how hard they're trying to manipulate people's minds to not ban.
I am in favour of do not ban but this attitude of council is forcing me to vote ban.
As a council member I want to respond to this clearly.

We decided to suspect due to the Calyrex-being-problematic score of 5.2/10 last time increasing to ~6.4/10 this time among qualified players on the survey. Thus, we decided to suspect.


We decided to suspect, knowing that a ban is a major possibility, despite the fact that almost all council members are voting do not ban.


My main focus here has been 100% clarity.


The irresponsible thing to do would be to ignore the survey results and not suspect test Calyrex.



I have no idea why you are voting Ban just to spite council members? If you think it doesn't deserve to be banned, then vote do not ban.
 
Hey folks, looks like we're finally getting to the voting phase and if you're opinion isn't quite locked-in yet like all the gents above me here I thought I'd propose a solution not many have really talked much about.

In my opinion the only logical conclusion can really be to vote ban for this suspect and Aberforth has affirmed this for me. To take a quote he had directed at an essayist on a former page:
If the following meta is unpopular and would need tiering action, the only option that would be on the table would be a resuspect of Calyrex to the metagame.
As we can see, this suspects decision isn't as finalized as most would assume given this submission. The meta right now feels a bit stale and uninteresting so it only makes sense for me to vote for a ban to see how the metagame may improve and be more fun.

After all, with how attentive the Tier Leaders are if the resulting meta turns out poorly we seem to have their promise to allow Caly-S back into the tier. So I'd like you all to please take this into account when casting your vote!
 

Rhmsitb

is a Tiering Contributor
UPL Champion
We decided to suspect due to the Calyrex-being-problematic score of 5.2/10 last time increasing to ~6.4/10 this time among qualified players on the survey. Thus, we decided to suspect.
I know this thing and i intentionally did not mention about those privileged users. If everything is decided by their votes then there's no point in conducting surveys for regular users and this thread and their opinions is simply a joke.

The irresponsible thing to do would be to ignore the survey results and not suspect test Calyrex.
You've been doing this for so long (survey results of only privileged users matter so why do you open survery forms for regular users).

I have no idea why you are voting Ban just to spite council members? If you think it doesn't deserve to be banned, then vote do not ban.
That thing could have been banned way earlier if you respected regular users votes and opinions.
 
I know this thing and i intentionally did not mention about those privileged users. If everything is decided by their votes then there's no point in conducting surveys for regular users and this thread and their opinions is simply a joke.


You've been doing this for so long (survey results of only privileged users matter so why do you open survery forms for regular users).


That thing could have been banned way earlier if you respected regular users votes and opinions.
It was already pretty transparent with the voting-out-of-spite thing, but shifting the goalpost from "the council deliberately timed this suspect to coincide with favorable community responses to Caly" to "the council is ignoring community responses" comes off as disingenuous as hell and very "mad for the sake of being mad". Like if you truly take issue with how qualified and total responses are weighted then you could've brought it up in a different context and without voting out of spite.

Personally, I'm still on the fence about Caly, but I'm also very distrustful of the pro-ban side just due to the nature of the Ubers ladder and how, imo, repetitive and shallow a lot of the pro-ban arguments are. And I don't even play tours or anything like that. I agree with Manaphy in that a lot of people just see superficially fast and strong mon and go "aahh ban!". Even back during the Zac-H suspect where people were mad about it being suspected before Caly, despite the dog being plainly more problematic with just a cursory glance at the meta.

So please do actually thoroughly consider everything before you vote.
 
I do not think Calyrex-Shadow should be banned. I know it's overpowered but Ubers is meant to be filled with overpowered pokemon. Marshadow is an amazing counter if has focus sash itself and if calyrex has no focus sash marshadow can easy shadow sneak. Yveltal also walls calyrex and can sucker punch to easy ko it. Even then, Calyrex's options are almost limitless and can threaten with Substitute+Nasty Plot/Calm Mind to potentially get a sweep. Also, Calyrex almost never runs max HP so by many neutral hits (even from uu pokemon) it gets 3HKOed often or even 2HKOed, so it's bulk isn't too great (why it runs focus sash). However more pokemon are forced to use scarf to outspeed it due to a base 150 Speed Stat. (it's also very happy without Darkrai).
Sash Marshadow has to rely that here are no hazards, and it can use scarf itself, the Uber argument is bad. Also, Yvletal can be played around, what shit will it do should it’s sucker punch be disabled, and the new Disable sets sit on it. For example, SubDisable could Sub, then nasty plot (you need to attack to get hit by sucker punch), and if it still has its sunk it can disable your other dark move, then proceed to ruin you. Marshadow cant defeat it if it has a sub (Why would I run spectral thief over poltergeist? Why must I beat a single mon and lose to many bulky Uber moms because of that?) because adamant poltergeist is 27373737^3663646464 more common than jolly spectral thief
 

Manaphy

Throughout heaven and earth, I alone am family guy
is a Tiering Contributoris a Top Contributor
I know this thing and i intentionally did not mention about those privileged users. If everything is decided by their votes then there's no point in conducting surveys for regular users and this thread and their opinions is simply a joke.


You've been doing this for so long (survey results of only privileged users matter so why do you open survery forms for regular users).


That thing could have been banned way earlier if you respected regular users votes and opinions.
Both sides are of course taken into consideration. The fact is that the pro-suspect vote for regular users barely decreased and is still at a strong 6, while qualified voters had a significant increase to 6. If regular users had Caly at a 1 or a 2 for being problematic, then we may not be having this suspect right now.

The timing of the suspect should have absolutely no relevance to this discussion. The fact is that we're having it now because the survey happened recently. If you think surveys should happen more often, then that's an entirely different conversation.

I would appreciate if we could keep the conversation strictly to Calyrex-S and if it deserves to be banned or not.
 

Dead by Daylight

16 colors, I’m so lonely
is a Pre-Contributor
Alright, so here’s my two cents:

Calyrex-Shadow, for all you anti-ban voters, is strong and fast. That is true. However, we are not voting to ban it because of it being strong and fast, it’s because it constricts teambuilding far too much.

If your team doesn’t run Yveltal in this meta, it’s likely unviable. Weavile could be a good try to force it out…if it wasn’t outsped. Sash Marshadow is near-exclusive to low ladder.

Another point of contention is Grim Neigh, which allows it to spiral out of control far too easily if you can’t break its Substitute.

You have to realize that Calyrex-Shadow has not only the stats, but also the movepool and ability to back it up.
 

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