Metagame np: SS PU Stage 10 - Ice Cream (Scyther BANNED)

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Chloe

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NUPL Champion

:ss/vanilluxe:



The PU council has decided to suspect test Vanilluxe. While this Pokemon was under the radar for a while, its rise to fame through outstanding tour performances and its current constraint on the teambuilder have pretty much forced our hand into holding a suspect test for it.

Vanilluxe is THE premier breaker in PU right now. With base 110 special attack in conjunction with a spammable 110 BP Blizzard, Vanilluxe has virtually no reliable switchins. The Steel-types that we have in the tier are unable to deal with such a powerful Ice-type attack and hence Pokemon like Gigalith are excessively relied upon to keep it in check, and end up on the vast majority of team structures. Your only other somewhat reliable options are Miltank and Coalossal, both off-meta checks, which can be overcome through HDB + Taunt and Water Pulse respectively. This isn't optimal. In addition to this, its speed tier is very good for a prominent breaker in PU, hitting 257 with no boosting nature. This outspeeds the vast majority of common Pokemon in the tier.

Its constraint on the teambuilder cannot and should not be understated. Previous efficient Steel-types like specially defensive Aggron and Togedemaru are overcome with ease. Vanilluxe is able to do 40% to each with Choice Specs Blizzard. Aggron's lack of recovery ensures it only switches into this twice before perishing. Togedemaru, while having recovery in Wish, is overwhelmed with ease due to how easily this move is abused. Gigalith's usage has skyrocketed thanks to the recent discovery of just how potent Vanilluxe is. Being borderline forced to run Gigalith or automatically having an insanely difficult Vanilluxe matchup makes for an incredibly unenjoyable teambuilding experience right now. If you thought Charizard and Scrafty were restrictive, Vanilluxe is this dialed up to 11.

While Vanilluxe is overall an incredibly dominant force, it can struggle a little in other areas. It has a notable Stealth Rock weakness, which is by far its main issue if you are using its primary set (Choice Specs). You are constantly forced into removing Stealth Rock in order to allow Vanilluxe safe entry. This can be somewhat of an issue in a metagame lacking a lot of hazard removal. Ice is also an appalling defensive typing that lacks any notable resistances. That being said, it does have decent natural bulk to mitigate this a little, and it does find enough opportunities to switch in given adequate removal and support.



Reading this is mandatory for participating in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 79 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 79 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 83. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 79 GXE will suffice.

GXEminimum games
7950
79.249
79.448
79.647
79.846
8045
80.244
80.443
80.642
80.841
8140
81.239
81.438
81.637
81.836
8235
82.234
82.433
82.632
82.831
8330

  • You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be PUVS. For example, I might signup with the ladder account PUVS Chloe.
  • Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgment here.
  • We will be using the regular PU ladder for this suspect test. We will not be creating a new Suspect Ladder. At the beginning of every battle, there will be an announcement denoting the ongoing suspect with a link to this thread.
  • The aspect being tested, Vanilluxe, will be allowed on the ladder.
  • Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
  • Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
  • The suspect test will go on for two weeks, lasting until Sunday, August 14th @ 11:59pm (GMT-4), and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.
Tagging Kris & Marty to announce the Vanilluxe suspect test in ladder games, thank you so much!

Post your reqs here.
 
:vanilluxe:
:vanilluxe:

I will be voting ban in the upcoming vote on Vanilluxe. Going into PUPL, Vanilluxe was fairly unexplored and was seen as a somewhat niche breaker that could do damage to builds that weren't packing Togedemaru. This was before the drops and a lot of builds consisted of Regirock / Togedemaru / Eldegoss. W1 of PUPL then saw five uses of Vanilluxe in SS and I think this caused a bit of a perception switch. It was realised that, due to the sheer power of blizzard off a base 110 Special Attack stat and the additional damage dealt by hail, traditional steels like Aggron and Toge don't check actually serve as an effective check to the pokemon.

One of two particularly notable games here is my game vs Sjneider. This was my first time seeing heavy-duty boots taunt Vanilluxe and it's able to successfully prevent Togedemaru's recovery late-game, putting me in a situation where every time Vanilluxe is sent in I'm forced to sack something. The other game was Chloe vs Scottie. Scottie is using specs Vanilluxe here and it's able to simply blow past a max Sp. Def Aggron, doing upwards of 40% and mitigating leftovers recovery with hail, putting Chloe in a super tight spot whenever it's able to get in.

We've now reached W5 of PUPL and Gigalith, the best answer to Vanilluxe, has doubled in usage from W1, featuring on over 50% of teams. This can be seen as a direct response to the discovery of Vanilluxe as a top-tier breaker and sets the tone for why I don't think Vanilluxe belongs in this tier.

:gigalith:Counterplay:coalossal:
So, now that we've established what Vanilluxes threatens with, let's take a look at how teams can deal with it.


Gigalith is the Vanilluxe answer right now, and it's about the only thing preventing Vanilluxe from being quickbanned. With Sand Stream and a solid HP and Sp. Def stat, Gigalith is a fantastic special sponge for the entire tier. It's super easy to fit onto teams and answers to Vanilluxe very well by eliminating its hail, decreasing blizzard accuracy as a result and only taking 40% from specs blizzard when it hits. Additionally, the meta has adapted to the longer games and additional strain put on Gigalith by running rest with an aromatherapy user for healing.

Unfortunately, due to its low speed and being forced to run rest as your last slot, Gigalith is quite passive. This means you're forced to run a certain style of defensive build, or you'll find yourself being taken advantage of by powerful threats like Gallade and Scrafty, or dangerous momentum grabbers like Wishiwashi.

This is the crux of the Vanilluxe issue. Either you run Gigalith and reuse the same Gigalith balance cores that have been used over and over and over again, or you accept that your team will be susceptible to Vanilluxe. There's very little wiggle room as the pool of pokemon that can live a hit from Vanilluxe AND outspeed it is minimal.


One of the few benefits of Vanilluxe's rise to prominence is the emergence of Coalossal as a viable PU pokemon. Right now I think it's near impossible to build consistent offensive builds without using Coalossal. Vanilluxe's combination of a good speed tier and very respectable (by PU standards) 71 / 85 / 95 bulk means that, unless you have a solid answer to it, Vanilluxe can simply outspeed and kill some of your breakers, or just shrug off a hit and get a kill.

Coal mitigates this by taking only about 30% from specs blizzard with hail factored in. It's also not dead weight as it provides a Charizard answer while also carrying hazard and spin support. However its typing, speed, lack of recovery and reliance on heavy-duty boots means it can still be easily pressured, and Vanilluxe can even run water pulse to 2HKO it. Under most circumstances, it would be a fairly niche pick, but it feels almost like a requirement when the alternative for offensive builds is to sack whenever Vanilluxe gets in.


Other options
:miltank:
Miltank was mentioned above as a potential answer, and while this is true, Miltank is a very niche pick that doesn't provide a whole lot of value outside of this role. Its lack of a defensive typing means it's very easy to pressure down as most things can hit it neutrally and it doesn't like dealing with hazards on the field. It can work on certain builds but it's not something you want to be using a lot.

:doublade:
Doublade is one of the best pokemon in the tier and it takes about 50% from blizzard while OHKOing back. This isn't great but it's nice to have in the back for late-game situations where you may need to survive a hit with something. The main reason I have it here though is, as seen in this replay, Doublade can go fully Sp. Def with resttalk to check Vanilluxe. Even at that though, specs Vanilluxe just barely manages a 3HKO so if there are hazards or you get poor sleep talk roles, you may lose anyway.

:turtonator:Veil Offense:carracosta:
After a long slumber, HO (Hyper Offense) builds have begun booming again and Vanilluxe has been part of that charge. With snow warning and a good speed tier, Vanilluxe is fantastic on HO builds at both setting aurora veil while also serving as an immediate source of damage to pressure bulkier pokemon. Here is my W2 PUPL game, where I'm able to use veil to set up with my Turtonator and win the game without ever sending in 2 of my pokemon.

While it's not the main reason why Vanilluxe is being suspected, I believe veil to be a hugely uncompetitive strategy as it allows for very little actual interaction between players and instead often comes down to whether or not the opponent has the required counter-play for the suite of sweepers you've loaded up. While Abomasnow and Aurorus could technically fulfil this role if Vanilluxe departs, neither of these have the speed nor the initial power that makes Vanilluxe such a problem to deal with.

The Core Issue / Conclusion
The available counterplay to Vanilluxe, as listed above, is very limited and is centralised around a core few pokemon. This leads to building in SS PU being a painful job, as you're either forced to accept being weak to Vanilluxe and hope you don't see it, or rely on the same Gigalith / Coalossal cores.

I for one think there are a lot of interesting pokemon and structures to explore within PU and I'm frustrated with being forced away from them because I know that if I don't run Gigalith balance I'm putting myself at a huge disadvantage due to Vanilluxe. Vanilluxe hugely constrains the builder and makes building a chore because you're essentially just recycling teams playing in a meta with it. All Vanilluxe provides for the tier is unreasonable wall-breaking potential and an uncompetitive strategy in aurora veil, both of which make the tier far less fun to play.

I will 100% be voting ban for this suspect test as I think it's best for the tier and I encourage you to do the same if you want SS PU in a good spot going into the end of the generation.
 
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Ktütverde

of course
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Former Smogon Metagame Tournament Circuit Champion
1659836242330.png

https://pokepast.es/6c09f5e813313e30

As the biggest hail player on smogon (started competitive mons using hail, then laddered and played smogtours with almost only hail exclusively for like 2 years in OU and at some point moved to PU where abomasnow was viable lol the madman) I couldn't miss the opportunity of this icecream suspect to build a new hail.
I was kinda hyped to share this, but by the look of the team I laddered a dozen of games with it in topladder to make sure it does win. It went undefeated so I think you can try using it to get the reqs if you like the team, it's really fun to use and the battles are fairly quick.
1659836779138.png
(didn't mean to make it this big just screenedshot it and paste)
Spoiler: for ladder use, not tournament use.

Also I'm voting do not ban, went into the suspect neutral leaning towards ban, but vanilluxe wasn't too convincing vs all the zard/gigalith/steels/etc. Ended up using scarf which is ok and very fun with glaceon specs blizzard + icebody. Play the team as aggressively as you can but not too much (or maybe too much wynaut).

Replays of why glaceon needs a suspect (for non PUers, this is a joke):
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1633921035-sdihi0ypewfm1tm13zmbqw9m7diam5hpw (why is glaceon allowed???)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8pu-1633934857-1ep1a11on2mi88s1oqp90n8ursdjf6jpw (sorry PUVS Fritz but don't worry, you probably only lost 0.00001 gxe vs me so you're totally good to get your reqs good luck!)

PS: watch out for AV spdef hitmonchan. It's like chansey but 2x more bulky.
 

Chloe

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NUPL Champion
Shane made an excellent post on just why Vanilluxe is overbearing in the current metagame and I haven't got any issues with this post whatsoever. It seems like that is also the case for many given the lack of any rebuttal I've seen. The only two posts in this thread are currently "a comprehensive guide to why Vanilluxe is stupid broken" and "Vanilluxe is fine because I ran into Steel-types on my suspect run while running a subpar Vanilluxe set". The latter being what most DNB arguments I've seen have come down to. An unfortunate lack of experience and attention.

My biggest issue with Vanilluxe is not its ability to effectively break through every common Pokemon we have, although that is obviously a problem I have with it. It is instead its incredibly detrimental effect on the teambuilder. I could maybe live with the fact that my Gigalith is just going to have to awkwardly check Vanilluxe every game, and that I just need to play my Gigalith better and to meticulously keep it safe throughout the course of a match. But the fact that people are being forced to run Gigalith, or essentially losing, is awful.

A repeated talking point I've heard over the last year from the general community is how teambuilding is a chore because of your forced Charizard and Scrafty checks. How every team is borderline required to run a Fairy-type or dedicated Scrafty answer in addition to a Rock-type / specially defensive Water-type in order to function against these Pokemon or just accept the loss on matchup. This is in my opinion, a valid viewpoint and one that should be considered going forward.

These same people will however, with no sense of irony, start talking about how Vanilluxe is healthy and is not a concern. Charizard and Scrafty have several answers each. Vanilluxe has one, Gigalith. They're of course not 100% comparable, but they are all offensive aspects you are required to specifically account for in the teambuilder. Gigalith has seen a massive uptick in tournament usage recently, with Vanilluxe being the main reason for this. Every other common Pokemon that resists Ice is demolished rather easily. Togedemaru relies on Wish which doesn't allow it to adequately check Vanilluxe throughout the course of a match, and Aggron takes approximately 50% with max bulk. I hate how I'm essentially punished for trying to be "creative" in this current metagame by using specially defensive Togedemaru or Aggron or whatever to check special threats instead of Gigalith. Why would I use these Pokemon when they don't sufficiently check Vanilluxe?

Gigalith went from 25% usage to 53% usage in PUPL, in four weeks. Vanilluxe is repeatedly stated as THE reason why people are running it more. Every week I go through this back and forth while building for tournaments. Do I run Gigalith so I can check Vanilluxe well or do I attempt to run something else that isn't as easily abusable and pray for no Vanilluxe? I hate being forced to run the same Pokemon on every team. I've tried alternatives through Miltank and Coalossal, but these obviously aren't perfect. They're niche Pokemon that would not even be in most players' consideration if not for the fact Vanilluxe is crazy oppressive. It's annoying and inane. What do we get out of keeping this Pokemon?

I have tried to play devil's advocate extensively and look for the positives in keeping a Pokemon like Vanilluxe around. It breaks extremely well and there is merit in keeping our strong breakers in the tier of course, but we have more than enough other options. We have other breakers that don't just destroy the entirety of the tier and force us to use the same monotonous defensive structures on every team. I like having freedom in my teambuilding and this is definitely not something I want to be forced into running on every single team come SCL.

People will mention how on ladder Vanilluxe wasn't the amazing oppressive force we've described it to be, but a large portion of the ladder runs mindless hyper offense which of course Vanilluxe has a worse matchup against. It benefits extensively from the reliable balances that most people run in tournaments. This partly outlines my problem with the suspect process. How is someone playing thirty games of PU on a subpar ladder going to have the necessary judgment to decide whether a problematic element is broken? It makes me extremely frightened going forward. I see ladder players mentioning Pokemon like Gallade as broken when the majority of the tours playerbase doesn't even think it's remotely an issue. If this is the disconnect we have when deciding what stays and goes in our tier then how are we supposed to come to just conclusions.

I beg anyone considering a do not ban vote to look at how oppressive it's been in PUPL so far. How overwhelmingly restrictive it is. How over HALF of the teams being run are using Gigalith at the moment. This isn't Ubers. Running the same Pokemon on every team isn't a necessary evil. It's something we can and should avoid.

A Few Replays:
Sjneider vs QWILY | Gigalith gets overwhelmed by Vanilluxe.
jonfilch vs TheFranklin | Gigalith gets impaired turn 1 and the game is over.
lax vs Star | Anything to get the Vanilluxe in.
Scottie vs chlo | Max SpD Steel-type takes 50 from Blizzard.



I understand that Vanilluxe might not be the omnipresent threat you see people make it out to be when you're on your thirty game suspect run, but I assure you it's absolutely an offensive powerhouse in competitive play with very little defensive counterplay. Take a look for yourself if you do not believe me. It is too strong for our defensive Pokemon in the tier currently.

If you want to see a screechy voice with an Australian accent ramble on for half an hour, without a script, just talking about how oppressive Vanilluxe is, reiterating some of the points I've talked about here, feel free to watch this:

I really want to see Vanilluxe banned. It is by far the most egregious factor in the current metagame. If you value metagame diversity and healthiness I implore you to do the same. Thank you.
 

Ktütverde

of course
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Former Smogon Metagame Tournament Circuit Champion
These same people will however, with no sense of irony, start talking about how Vanilluxe is healthy and is not a concern. Charizard and Scrafty have several answers each. Vanilluxe has one, Gigalith.
Even if you don't mean it, it sounds like "do some people actually think vanilluxe isn't a problem ?" which could offend some readers. I for one don't think it's broken, and there is no irony here ! Thus I think this sentence could be rephrased, you shouldn't underestimate the influence a TL can have on the outcome of a suspect test by his/her word choice. The same goes for "imploring" to do like you and vote ban. No hard feelings :p

The wording here too is somewhat ambiguous : "answer" is very vague, is it counter ? defensive check ? offensive check ? Gigalith is a vanilluxe answer as a tank, not a wall, so expecting it to wall it isn't realistic, it doesn't resist ice (did someone say gigalith is a steeltype). Charizard is a neat answer, and most things faster than vanilluxe like scyther etc are too, and magneton/centiskorch/sneasel are some examples of offensive checks that resist ice. Then if we are talking "safe switch ins" yeah we don't have many, I definitely agree with coalossal miltank being mediocre ; but ice types are often like that, insane offensive moves but weakness to rocks and no useful resistances to tank anything. Offensively checking vanilluxe isn't difficult, anything faster beats it basically, and combining that with gigalith/wishy/togedemaru for example who can tank blizzard if needed, here we have a more than acceptable vanilluxe counterplay. It's very hard to fit onto teams too due to rock weakness and awful typing, so that always helps.
 

Hera

Make a move before they can make an act on you
is a Social Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
PUPL Champion
:ss/Vanilluxe:
Specs (Vanilluxe) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest / Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blizzard
- Freeze-Dry
- Flash Cannon
- Water Pulse / Ice Shard

ToxTect (Vanilluxe) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Blizzard
- Freeze-Dry
- Toxic
- Protect / Taunt

Veil Lead (Vanilluxe) @ Focus Sash / Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Snow Warning
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Aurora Veil
- Blizzard
- Freeze-Dry
- Taunt / Explosion

When I initially started this suspect, I expressed leaning dnb. I felt that Vanilluxe was an off-meta breaker that could fish for the proper matchups and win, while being useless in many others. PUPL games have shown me that Vanilluxe is much stronger than I anticipated, and I can understand wanting Vanilluxe gone. However, a majority of the ban arguments have failed to persuade me, and while Vanilluxe is undoubtedly powerful, I do not find it banworthy.

Something pro-ban people point to as arguments for Vanilluxe being broken is the high usage of Gigalith. Recently, it has surpassed 50% usage during Week 5, despite having half of that during the first week. Vanilluxe pro-banners point out that this is because of Vanilluxe and how hard it is to switch into, with Gigalith being the sole mon (beyond Miltank, Coalossal, and some others like Frosmoth, which pro-banners say are good answers but not as viable or splashable) used as a Vanilluxe switch-in on most teams. While it is true that Gigalith usage has risen, and part of this is due to Vanilluxe, I would argue that this is more due to the rise of Doublade hazard stacking builds. Ever since Week 2, when Doublade dropped, these builds have been immensely popular due to their ability to outlast most breakers long enough to win, as well as the combination of Spikes, Stealth Rock, and a spinblocker in a tier where hazards removal is very limited. What does this have to do with Gigalith? It, Doublade, Sandslash, and Ribombee (or another Fairy-type) are 4 mandatory members on these teams, which have retained their popularity a month after Doublade dropped. This can be shown by looking at the usage stats for each week since Week 2, as all of the mons I mentioned have been in the Top 5 by usage since then. And as for Gigalith's high usage in Week 5, it's not the only one to surpass 50%; Ribombee and Charizard had the exact same usage rate during Week 2, while Doublade had more than Gigalith has now during Week 4. People commonly point to Ribombee being mandatory for Scrafty (which isn't always the case), and Charizard and Doublade's high usage is due to their viability as breakers with considerable defensive utility. Are Scrafty, Charizard, and Doublade banworthy? Maybe...or it could be that they're simply top-tier mons, which they all are. With all this information, I see no reason to conclude that the rise of Gigalith is being pushed heavily by Vanilluxe as some claim, but rather the meta trending in a direction that benefits Gigalith.

As for Vanilluxe itself, let's take a look at its usage stats and win rate. Including some Bo3 SS replays that will be linked below (including one where it was guaranteed to win via both sides having it), and excluding Week 6 (because not all of it has been played, although Vanilluxe has yet to appear in a game this week), it has appeared on 23/158 teams, and won 12 times (11 if you don't count the game it was guaranteed to win). This is good for a 14.56% usage rate and a 52.17% win rate. To me, this does not look like a mon that is either overbearing or broken, as the usage rate reflects a low chance of running into it, while the win rate shows us that Vanilluxe wins about as much times as it loses (if it it was broken, the win rate would be skewed more in its favor). Pokemon like Scrafty have both higher usage rates and higher win rates; however, the community seems to be more divided over them.


Another thing pro-banners say about Vanilluxe is that it's not healthy. That I agree with; Vanilluxe is not a healthy Pokemon. However, I can't buy that it's an unhealthy Pokemon. "healthy" and "unhealthy" tend to be buzzwords people, including me, throw around to make their points seem more valid, to the point where it has lost some or most of its original meaning. When I think of an unhealthy mon, I think of one that is pushing the metagame towards an undesirable direction. So far, I have not seen that with Vanilluxe. Two big changes during PUPL were the rise of Doublade hazard stacking builds and more hyper offense builds. The former exists mainly because of how good Doublade is and how good and flexible the playstyle is, and the latter exploits common defensive cores by using uncommon mons like Turtonator and DD Scrafty to overwhelm these common defensive cores. If Vanilluxe was truly unhealthy, we would not only see more of the latter teams (since making all your mons mega powerful and decently fast is a good way of denying slow breakers like Vanilluxe from breaking), but teams like the former would be nearly non-existent due to their inability to deal with Vanilluxe long-term, especially with hazards support or Toxic Charizard. However, Doublade hazard stacking builds are still going strong, HO is still an uncommon playstyle, and Vanilluxe win rates and usage rates continue to be merely decent to medicore.

Honestly, if Vanilluxe is banworthy, I feel this is due to it being a symptom of another problem: Charizard. I currently do not find Charizard to be problematic, but the rise of defensive sets and offensive sets with Toxic have lead many players to run Rest Rock-types, which leaves their main special check (usually Gigalith) a sitting duck for 2/3 turns depending of if the Vanniluxe hards in as you Rest. While I can't compile the usage stats for VanillZard cores, in my personal experience, these cores are very powerful, synergize well, and easily break past shared checks with the proper positioning. Without Rest, Gigalith loses long-term to a well-played Toxic Zard even with cleric support, and without Protect, it cannot stall out enough Blizzard PP for Vanilluxe to no longer be an issue (Specs Flash Cannon is a lot easier to play around). While these two by themselves are arguably not banworthy, I feel that together they push their breaking power too far. However, I feel that Charizard would be the main issue here due to its bigger constraint on teambuilding imo, the fact that it's much more common, and the lack of long-term checks; however, like Vanilluxe, I am not completely convinced that tiering action against Charizard is necessary or worthwhile.

Overall, I do sympathize with the pro-ban arguments to an extent. Vanilluxe is quite powerful, and while a 52% win rate isn't amazing, it's nothing to scoff at either. Specs Blizzard hits like a truck in Hail, and this means Vanilluxe has limited switch-ins. I especially sympathize with chlo's post; I know how it feels to have to deal with a breaker I have perceived as broken and having tried nearly everything to stem it. However, I just do not find the ban arguments convincing enough, as though Vanilluxe is much more dubious than other ban candidates like Espeon, Drampa, or the quickbanned Guzzlord imo, I find that there is sufficient counterplay in the form of faster mons, PP stalling Blizzard, 50/50s between bulky Waters and blanket special walls, and the opportunity cost of running a slowish pure Ice-type that rarely runs Boots. Its usage rate and win rate in PUPL do not reflect that of a banworthy mon imo, and I plan to vote do not ban, although I admit that it probably will be banned anyway.
 
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Vulpix03

is a Tiering Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
RUPL Champion
I would just like to post to share my opinion quickly.

I will be voting ban on Vanilluxe. It is absurdly strong without a true switch in in this tier. Most people cite Gigalith as a counter, and although it is our best / most splashable answer to Vanilluxe, it doesn't actually beat it long term. Assuming a specs blizzard connects in sand Gigalith takes 38.7-45.9. This means that Gigalith can switch in just once. People have started to use rest Gigalith, however rest Giga can be fodder for Vanilluxe. Oftentimes when a Giga clicks rest as I switch into my Giga answer (sandslash usually), all I have to do is switch back into Vanilluxe and suddenly something dies. Giga is asleep and 3 hit kod, if the Giga is wild and stays in on the Sandslash then it is 2 hit kod in hail, etc. Gigalith is NOT a Vanilluxe counter UNLESS it dodges blizzards.

You have some niche answers in the tier. Thick fat Miltank only takes 35 from specs blizzard, which is not bad. But similar to Togedemaru Miltank is pressured by hail negating leftovers and by hazards. At least Miltank doesn't rely on wish though. Flareon is similar to Togedemaru in that it relies on wish to recover and is thus hindered heavily, and oftentimes cannot switch in to Vanilluxe more than once. What's worse is that Flareon cannot run leftovers and due to hail takes 32-38 net damage per turn from a blizzard. Flareon also just sucks if we are being honest.

As for getting Vanilluxe in, it's honestly not that hard. This tier is full of pokemon that Vanilluxe threatens out such as Eldegoss, and taking damage on Ice Cream usually doesn't matter as long as it gets to fire off blizzards. Vanilluxe is also deceptively bulky, sporting 71/85/95 bulk, this is solid by pu standards and means that Vanilluxe is able to tank a hit and nuke something against offensive teams.

Lastly, before people throw the "what about Gallade" argument out, there is a key difference that separates Vanilluxe from other breakers, and that is the spammability of Blizzard and ease of clicking. Gallade, Articuno-G, Specs Mesprit, and others are all more or less prediction heavy mons. Does my opponent go Doublade on my Zen? Or do they leave their Weezing in to wisp as I knock? Do I click Hurricane with my Specs Articuno expecting Scrafty / Ferroseed? Or do they play it safe and go Gigalith? What makes Vanilluxe great is that it only really needs to click Blizzard, because nothing in this tier truly wants to take one. The spammability of Blizzard coupled with hail chipping away at the opponent more and Vanilluxe hitting the perfect speed tier with modest to outpace every defensive mon in the tier is why I believe Vanilluxe is unhealthy.

I hope this was coherent my work posts are usually messy.
 

gum

for the better
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i was originally pro-ban before this suspect but since then i have been rather unimpressed by vanilluxe. i think its impact on building is largely overstated; gigalith being everywhere does not only have to do with vanilluxe, it has to do with it being the best blanket check to half of the tier's special attacking threats and doublade pushing the meta in a state where using cores like regirock + togedemaru is harder to justify, as well as making a lot of mons like lycanroc and even sneasel that made regirock better than gigalith for a while worse. ice cream is not the main culprit when it comes to any of these meta trends and acting like it is fails to make any sense in my opinion and is quite ignorant. the tier is not in a "run gigalith or lose situation". it leaving would at most free up teambuilding a bit, which is bound to happen when you ban a very potent breaker, but would really not lead to any real change; similarly potent breakers like specs magneton, vikavolt, and trevenant / gourgeist forms have seen usage and imo just proves that once vanilluxe goes, something else is just going to pop up and take its spot

teams that are gigalith + 5, often slow, mons that die to 1 or 2 blizzard are naturally going to struggle against vanilluxe. it is a breaker, it's only natural it gets to do its job especially well when faced against teams that are bound to getting overwhelmed, which, again, a lot of breakers can do to a very similar level

i don't think banning anything would really change much, you can make a case for scrafty as it often requires unorthodox answers or multiple ones but pokemon like ribombee, sandaconda, and quagsire are still going to be great. i think resuspecting espeon would be a nice first step if we actually want change; its suspect was extremely close and was decided by one vote, and its presence in the meta actually led to more options being viable. moreover, doublade is a solid omnipresent offensive answer and the tier is in urgent need of actual removal options (ppl are convincing themselves eldegoss is a good pokemon). virizion was never given a real chance after getting quickbanned after an extremely impactful tier shift that led to a very different meta, and so no one has any way to know whether or not it deserves a spot in this meta. also, once again we have doublade now. guzzlord should also be given a real chance considering most of the arguments were all on paper ones that often faltered in practice. would like to remind people that a resuspect does not mean a pokemon is getting freed; there's really no cost in trying to resuspect something down if people are content with the meta or if whatever is being suspected down could potentially help the meta

i don't mind if ice cream ends up leaving, it doesn't add anything beyond being a breaker but i think targeting it was the wrong step to take
 

gum

for the better
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i said gigalith + 5 mons that die to blizzard will naturally struggle as gigalith is bound to being overwhelmed when ice cream is presented with so many opportunities to click buttons. i disagree @ the breakers part, im fairly certain specs magneton has seen very similar success this pupl; poltergeist users have been more rare but also tear apart a lot of common team structures right now. please just tag me on discord if ur gna make a 2 liner post "replying" to my post
 

Vulpix03

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RUPL Champion
i said gigalith + 5 mons that die to blizzard will naturally struggle as gigalith is bound to being overwhelmed when ice cream is presented with so many opportunities to click buttons. i disagree @ the breakers part, im fairly certain specs magneton has seen very similar success this pupl; poltergeist users have been more rare but also tear apart a lot of common team structures right now. please just tag me on discord if ur gna make a 2 liner post "replying" to my post
My post was not replying to you as a person it was replying to your argument against banning vanilluxe. Tagging you on discord does nothing for those people reading smogon who aren't on disc / not aware that we had a conversation there
 

gum

for the better
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except your post still failed to acknowledge most of my points and instead focused on one of them while also getting rid of all nuance i added surrounding it, and then also giving an ignorant rebuttal to another point i brought up. i fail to see what was the point of replying if ur not gna do it properly to start with, regardless of ur intentions. twisting my arguments so they fit ur narrative does not seem like a good way to make a constructive post for the people reading this thread but not discord anyway
 

Vulpix03

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RUPL Champion
except your post still failed to acknowledge most of my points and instead focused on one of them while also getting rid of all nuance i added surrounding it, and then also giving an ignorant rebuttal to another point i brought up. i fail to see what was the point of replying if ur not gna do it properly to start with, regardless of ur intentions. twisting my arguments so they fit ur narrative does not seem like a good way to make a constructive post for the people reading this thread but not discord anyway
I responded to two points that were worth responding to. I'll elaborate.

You say that gigalith + 5 is bound to be overwhelmed, however the common consensus is that gigalith is the only pokemon that actually switches into specs vanilluxe (outside of a few very niche options). By saying this you are implying that every balance team will be overwhelmed by vanilluxe. That is all I'm pointing out. And no, a breaker should not be able to mow over every balance team in existence. That's not breaking that's just being unhealthy, and this argument that "balance is boring, why is every game balance vs balance" is nonsense and should never be used in a competitive centered argument.

As for your 2nd point I commented on. It is misleading to people who may not be as knowledgeable on the subject to imply that a vanilluxe ban has anything to do with our desire to change the meta. I personally quite like the meta, and Vanilluxe is being suspect tested because 7/7 council members and quite a few community members believe it to be broken. There should never be a suspect test or ban/unban for the sake of "change".

You seem to not understand how policy threads work and that back and forth exchanges are natural. I didn't twist your words I simply pointed out things I disagreed with, and if I misunderstood your points then maybe you should clarify them. Hopefully I didn't offend you.
 
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gum

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You say that gigalith + 5 is bound to be overwhelmed, however the common consensus is that gigalith is the only pokemon that actually checks vanilluxe (outside of a few very niche options). By saying this you are implying that every balance team will be overwhelmed by vanilluxe.
except that im not, i specified that teams that rely on gigalith too much while also letting vanilluxe in with little to no cost will naturally struggle against it. this is not a vanilluxe issue but moreso just a building one, you can't and will never be safe against any breaker if you rely on one pokemon when all of your other ones lose to said breaker. teams have multiple ways to circumvent how much they rely on gigalith defensively to deal with the ice cream, whether it's with offensive pressure (ex: gallade, scyther, zard, archeops, magneton, doublade, sawk, lycanroc, perrserker, gourgeist, centiskorch) or using softer switchins that can either switch into blizzard, scout what it's locking itself into, or punish it (ex: wishiwashi, jellicent, frosmoth, audino, some of the ones i mentioned earlier also go here). this makes it so that from my experience, vanilluxe is rarely ever an issue unless i build some team that lets it in too often with no way to punish it, and that's also the trend i've noticed while looking at replays

That's not breaking that's just being unhealthy, and this argument that "balance is boring, why is every game balance vs balance" is nonsense and should never be used in a competitive centered argument.
i've never used this argument and i don't think i've implied it either, i actually like this meta a lot and think a lot more than just balance is usable and good as of now

As for your 2nd point I commented on. It is misleading to people who may not be as knowledgeable on the subject to imply that a vanilluxe ban has anything to do with our desire to change the meta. I personally quite like the meta, and Vanilluxe is being suspect tested because 7/7 council members and quite a few community members believe it to be broken. There should never be a suspect test or ban/unban for the sake of "change".

You seem to not understand how policy threads work and that back and forth exchanges are natural. I didn't twist your words I simply pointed out things I disagreed with, and if I misunderstood your points then maybe you should clarify them. Hopefully I didn't offend you.
genuine question, what's the point of banning a pokemon if it's not to better the metagame (and so, lead to change)? can you really argue that it's broken if its presence is really that negligible? (and some people in this thread have mentioned it being very annoying in the builder). i do understand how policy threads work, but either way i hope this post clarifies what i meant
 

sensei axew

i’m not a stop along the way, i’m a destination
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after my countless debates with many people in pucord, i’ve finally had the time to make a post on why i am anti-vanilluxe ban. for starters, I would like to clarify that I, in no way, am trying to say that I think vanilluxe is bad or that I think people pro-vanilluxe ban are incorrect for their opinion. Also, this post will also take into consideration that Vanilluxe is running Choice Specs as that is generally the most used and considered as the most broken set that it runs.

anyway, I would like to start off by saying that the conclusion that PU has come down to Gigalith or lose is flat out incorrect. in fact, in week 5 of PUPL we see Gigalith used 17 times and it won… 5 times. Thats not even a third of the games. This is not to say that Gigalith is bad or that it can’t win games, I’m simply just using this as an example to explain how the narrative of either use gigalith or lose is flawed as teams without gigalith can easily pick up wins vs vani or no vani builds. Speaking of which, no one even has really been using Vanilluxe builds, as we saw a total of 2 people use it in this previous week of PUPL out of 32 SS teams. It did win one game but the ice cream didnt even set foot into the battlefield. On the game it lost, we see Qwily’s Vanilluxe do absolutely jackshit all game and then finally it comes in only to get walled by tlenit’s Flareon who, by the way, has the potential to be a decent pokemon with its ability to check Vani, Bee, Zard, and grasses in one slot while also providing teams with Wish support.

A lot of this is because the main reasons I think Vanilluxe isn’t banworthy is because of how little defensive utility it brings to a team. Vanilluxe checks absolutely 0 Pokemon due to its egregiously bad defensive typing and therefore it is a dead slot if it runs into a bad mu. Its moveset is also completely useless since the only utility it offers is freezes unless youre running boots taunt toxic which is an overall mid set. Furthermore, because if its bad defensive utility it requires an extensive amount of support from momentum users and defensive abilities alike. This is even more of a struggle considering the momentum users in PU are generally lacklusting outside of Scyther, Whimsicott, and Wishiwashi in which the former two dont make the best pairing with Vanilluxe. Lastly, its bulk and typing is so beyond mediocre that it can barely switch into anything, especially if hazards are up which is generally often considering we are in a hazard stacking meta, barring Quagsire and Eldegoss, even then it fears leech + sleep from the latter.

Furthermore, Vanilluxe winrate in PUPL as a whole is barely a majority as it has won 10 out of 19 games its been used. Personally, I’m not one to understand how a Pokemon who can only scrap up a 52% winrate amongst talented players can be considered as undoubtably busted. I could also go into detail about how I think a lot of the teams that Vanilluxe beat were not adequately prepared for it but I think gum covered that point pretty strongly when they said that if a team has 5 mons that get clapped by Blizzard, they can’t slap a Gigalith on the team and call it a day. That’s just how powerful breakers operate.

I will talk about these replays though. Yes, Vanilluxe won all 4 of these matches but the only game that features it being extremely good is your game vs scottie. In the first game we see what gum was talking about earlier, a build that has 5 pokemon that completely fold to Ice moves and a Gigalith. You cant rely on one pokemon to check a good breaker. It’d be the same thing if someone brought a team w 5 pokemon that fold to gallade and a doublade. Gallade is not bad enough where Doublade can be the only check to it and same thing applies to Vanilluxe. In the second game we see TheFranklin with two opportunities to kill Vanilluxe with his Gigalith however he didnt take either of them and decided to get up rocks and click earthquake. No offense to him, he is an amazing player, but the only reason Vani accomplished so much that game was mainly because it got 2 free passes it shouldnt have gotten. The third replay is completely unserious since Star would have won that game had Dual Wingbeat hit. While Vanilluxe does apply a great amount of pressure in the fourth game, I actually think the replay showcases Scyther as the broken Pokemon instead.

I also would like to mention how the like between powerful and broken breaker has been completely muddied somehow. Vanilluxe is NOT a broken breaker. A broken breaker has no checks, limited offensive counterplay, and plows through defensive structures. Vanilluxe does not satisfy any of those requirements.
You say that gigalith + 5 is bound to be overwhelmed, however the common consensus is that gigalith is the only pokemon that actually checks vanilluxe (outside of a few very niche options).
You seemed to have forgotten what the definition of a check is. For example Gallade and Charizard are checks to Vanilluxe. Yes they cannot switch into Blizzard, however, both of them outspeed and force out Vanilluxe. Speaking of which, lets talk about how many offensive Pokemon outspeed Vanilluxe and force it out. Oh right, outside of Trevanent every single offensive Pokemon on the VR ranked from S to B+ all outspeed Vanilluxe and almost every single one of them can dish out an attack that ohkos it, this includes Charizard, Sneasel, Archeops, Scyther, Articuno-Galar, Gourgeist-Small, Silvallys, Gallade etc. I just named for you at least 8 perfectly viable Pokemon that check Vanilluxe. As for defensive measures, I agree they are slightly lacking but once again, they are there. While Gigalith obviously is the best and most meta-orientated defensive check, there are numerous unexplored options that have already seen some success such as Flareon, Coalassol, and Frosmoth. Others include Miltank, Piloswine, Arctovish, and Cryogonal. This is also assuming that Vanilluxe is running Specs because if its not or its knocked pokemon like Togedemaru, Audino, and SpDef Wishi also check it as well. In other words, Vanilluxe does not have much set variability because outside of Specs, it is hardwalled by way too much. This is especially illustrated in the TJ vs crying PU Slam game that happened recently where a scarf vanilluxe did absolutely nothing all game and got hardwalled by three separate pokemon.

Regardless, so what if Gigalith has been seeing a usage spike?
Gigalith went from 25% usage to 53% usage in PUPL, in four weeks. Vanilluxe is repeatedly stated as THE reason why people are running it more.
This isn’t even proven to be true. Gigalith usage spiked at the same time Doublade rose while Vanilluxe has been in the tier for months. Non HO Doublade builds almost always want a Gigalith anyway, regardless of having Vanilluxe in mind, simply because the two form such a great core together as Gigalith is the special sponge to Doublade’s Steel-typing. Nonetheless, so what if Gigalith has a 50% usage rate, I strongly don’t believe that would even change if Vanilluxe were to be banned simply because it is such a strong sponge to a multitude of other pokemon such as Scyther, Ribombee, Charizard, and Guno to name a few. Furthermore, regardless of Vani’s presence it is clearly the premier rocker of the tier.
beg anyone considering a do not ban vote to look at how oppressive it's been in PUPL so far. How overwhelmingly restrictive it is. How over HALF of the teams being run are using Gigalith at the moment. This isn't Ubers. Running the same Pokemon on every team isn't a necessary evil. It's something we can and should avoid.
I’d like to finish my post with responding to this. Vanilluxe has not been oppressive at all during PUPL and through my aforementioned points, I don’t believe it is that restrictive either. Yes, PU isnt ubers, but every tier has a pokemon that is used on many teams. UU has Scizor, RU has Crobat, NU has Vaporeon, PU has Gigalith and it will remain that way with or without a Vanilluxe ban. I am urging people to help keep Vanilluxe, a strong yet not overbearing breaker that forces people to not be lazy in the builder. Thank you
 
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Vanilluxe is broken for the following reasons:
1. it's not that hard to get in
2. it is not a prediction heavy breaker and ur options to switch into it are extremely limited
3. it's not that frail
4. it's fast enough to where it's highly punishing to the defensive glue in the tier

A core that has been spammed to high success is the following: Gigalith / Sandslash / Eldegoss / Doublade / Vanilluxe / filler
Using eject button eldegoss, double spinners, and doublade to force ice cream bait in, you have a ton of flexibility to send in ur breaker. Gigalith vs Vanilluxe interactions are cancer because the ice cream can roll the slots to break the mon on its own and just freeze it or compound on it w ease given the support of spikes. You will see this core used in two grand slam series followed by a few pupl games. It's effective and has significant success whenever it has been used, sporting a 100% winrate across pupl and grand slam:

Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8pu-639547 - lax vs star
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8pu-639846 - sjneider vs qwily
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8pu-640602 - umbry vs crying
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8pu-641349 - star vs bushtush

A frustrating example I've encountered is that ice cream's existence exacerbates pkmn like charizard and scrafty. Because ice cream's answers are so limited and u are forced to use gigalith in many situations where u would prefer to have a bit more breathing room w ur defensive pkmn, it makes other mons more problematic. I'd love to use clefairy more often, a pkmn that had a lot of success during last scl for having the ability to compress a great zard check (denying it progress via magic guard) and scrafty. Its applications are much more limited and i believe this is bc vanilluxe constricts ur special wall options due to its raw power and snow warning.

I know I used "winrate" up above, but I meant it in the sense that each time this specific structure has been used, especially in a higher stakes setting than pupl like grand slam, it has had success. I find these other winrate statistic arguments to be weak. Winrate/pupl usage is ambiguous and suggests that pupl is the paradigm for competitive gameplay. It isn't. pupl to me is a fun tournament where anyone can do well and it is not really that competitive of a tournament. the stakes are low and it is a fun opportunity to play the tier. I dont think it should have strong influence on the tiering process, nor should one's personal experience on the ladder.

In addition, sensei axew cites several pkmn offensively + defensively checking ice cream as examples for why the mon is balanced. He is exaggerating to me because stating that sneasel, gourgeist-small, and scyther can ohko the mon is inaccurate. In addition, Archeops comes with the risk of having to hit its move against Vanilluxe. I don't think it's so easy to offensively pressure Vanilluxe in this tier given that the most consistent teams tend to have several pkmn slower than it, while the offensively checking pkmn cannot safely switch in ever. If it's hard to get vanilluxe in as some have claimed, what makes it easier to get the likes of gallade and random silvally forms in to offensively check it? As for defensive checks, Miltank, Piloswine, Flareon, and Cryogonal are just not very good pkmn. Frosmoth is cool, but it has a lot it needs to overcome to be consistently effective. Vanilluxe can actually break flareon bc it is likely forced to wish as it comes in to take a blizzard. In the case that it's frozen on the second blizzard, flareon will just lose w ease: 252+ SpA Choice Specs Vanilluxe Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Flareon: 89-105 (26.6 - 31.4%) -- 32.2% chance to 3HKO after hail damage

The situation is that 7/7 of the council members support a vanilluxe ban. These council members are who I consider to be the most knowledgeable of the tier, as they were almost all involved in scl last year and have a ton of pu experience. They might come off as exaggerating when trying to get this pokemon banned, but the reality is when in a higher stakes tournament like scl/grand slam, this pkmn will prove to be a tremendous nuisance in preparation and lower the tier's quality on its biggest stage. I trust everyone on the pu council to know what's best for the tier over players who don't have any official pu experience in team tournaments and if ur unsure who is a good reference, I would say shaneghoul, chloe, and vulpix's posts have been the most competitively minded and best support a healthier metagame. I am not sure why given that 7/7 council members want ice cream banned, it is not just qb'd, but that's another topic for another day.

tl;dr ban vanilluxe to promote a healthier and more competitive metagame
 

Ktütverde

of course
is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Former Smogon Metagame Tournament Circuit Champion
If teams start using more offensive mons to punish icecream, that is healthy i.m.o. There is no world in which continuing to see gigalith+eldegoss+bee+3 random bois in 99% of the teams is healthy, aka "rest gigalith cuz zard is too good" + "eldegoss cuz gigalith needs aroma and why not spin at the same time" + "bee not sure what it really does but scrafty you know". So in my point of view banning vanilluxe just makes boring old classic stallish balance cores that lose to every good breaker -- as gum more or less put it -- more viable. Seeing some seasels or archeops really can't hurt (and speeds up games oh boy). Seeing more counterplay to vanilluxe in regice can't h... hey why did nobody mention regice?

Maybe banning icecream is the right path to take, maybe not. I wish PU to be soon able to be able to build teams with actual gameplans instead of desperately stacking very fat or passive checks to the best mons (scrafty and zard, looking at you) and ending up with some awkward balances that need to be played like stall : feels like any breaker is gonna be a problem as long as we will be building like this. I particularly dislike that, but then, I only realized recently some people enjoy that (crazy people if you ask me). So it makes sense that there is such a strange clash of opinions, probably fans of very fat teams vs fans of more aggressive stuff ? ("ktut" "yeah?" "you're theory is totally wrong" "oh ok").

What I know for sure is that my favorite vanilluxe is the strawberry flavor one. And you?
 

cyanize

Mantra Good I Casted So Many Spells U Idiot
is a Community Contributor
well before this suspect ends, i suppose i might asw come from the dead 2 chime in bc i feel like vanilluxe is not actually a perpetrator but a symptom of a long-running problem in this tier

initially, when i saw the discussion around vani & saw the suspect get posted, i was somewhat on the fence but leaning towards ban; it's certainly true that vani is quite lacking in defensive answers & can put nearly unprecedented pressure on slower teams. however, after going thru recent high lvl replays & reading the posts in the thread, i feel i stand pretty firmly on the no ban side as well. the pro ban arguments have been pretty severely lacking, imo, & also often fail 2 take a look at the wider picture of vanis effect on the meta. i think gum + sensei pretty much hit the nail on the head wrt how vani is demonstrably not an overbearing force in the meta, but theres a ocuple points i want to put in as well & my fingers are itching to post so.

first, nearly every post cites vani as a not prediction heavy breaker. i think this is just... patently untrue, actually. in order 2 be the truly unwallable force it is made out 2 be, vani has 2 choose between three moves - blizz shreds 70% of the tier, but is pretty comfortably stomached by our various waters + niche bulkier fire types and, ofc, gigalith. freeze dry takes care of the waters but makes pretty minimal progress against the other blizz switchins, and is additionally abusable by the likes of zard (it's faster so u can simply roost on fd and live the subsequent one) or doublade (taking 40 is nbd when u can trade it for winning the game. more on this later). lastly, water pulse hits fires like coal and centi while also being the best option vs aggron.

we all know this already, but what ppl r ignoring fsr is the fact that vani requires specs to achieve its world-busting power - boots sets r lackluster in2 a lot of matchups & only somewhat decent in2 others. so by the very definition of a choiced breaker, it has 2 predict in order to make the progress that is so terrifying - and this often shows in actual matches, for example bush v star, where star correctly guesses water pulse into aggron out of the 3 possible vani switchins on bush's side. (bush then proceeds 2 throw away his remaining ice resist by slow u-turning on eldegoss fnr, which is what allows vani to eventually click blizzard & pick up a single additional ko on the now weakened wishi. i have no idea why he did this when he has zard vs tricked specs gigalith... even if he were scared of say, seeds or stun spore, going hard whimsi would have worked just fine; the whimsi has shadow ball for doublade, & star's zard is at 40% with hail up. idk)
i feel by simply looking at the fact that a team w vani on it won at high level, instead of actually analyzing how it was used & how the match unfolded, ppl are painting an unfair picture of vanis effect on the meta.

where the issue truly lies in vanis ability 2 spam uncontested blizzards is often, as gum pointed out, poor choices in building. i'll use jon v thefranklin as an example here - franklin has three slow ice weak mons, a pokemon renowed for its inability 2 tank special atks, & the sole member faster than vani on the team cannot ohko it. this is quite literally a dream matchup for vanilluxe... yet "gigalith gets impaired turn 1 & the game is over" ends up being a complete misrepresentation of what actually happens in game. a better summary would be smth along the lines of "gigalith gets impaired turn 1, & vani manages 2 barely eke out a win by manner of sheer absurd luck." let's break this 1 down further:
- gigalith gets tricked a specs turn 1. this in and of itself is simply the result of good play: a great lead matchup + jon using the element of surprise 2 hard read franklin. if the specs was given 2 franklin's bee or eldegoss instead, it could have later been baited into being knocked off by jons sandslash.
- franklin then is given a prime opportunity 2 remove vani from the game & instead opts to click eq to chip sandslash for 15%?? pointless read
- in the subsequent turns, vanilluxe manages to pull out a spectacular show of luck. 1st, it dodges a 50% roll for an ohko (+2 252 SpA Ribombee Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Vanilluxe: 261-307 (92.2 - 108.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO); it's worth noting that had franklin gotten this roll, the game likely just ends on the spot unless jon's audino is encore + toxic or something.
- then, guzzlord dtails audino out to prevent a wish & rolls vani *twice* out of the remaining 4 members.
- and even after all this, vani only manages 2 barely squeeze out the win by freezing a doublade which almost certainly cleans up shop at +2, unless jon manages 2 get lucky again & roll scald on the sleeping wishi. u could argue that this chance 2 freeze is unhealthy given the frequency w which vani clicks ice moves... and i'd agree prolly, cus i hate freeze, but given everything else i think it's incredibly unfair 2 attribute this win solely 2 vani's ability. (you could also argue that rolling dtail into vani is what gave franklin the opportunity 2 win here, as slash or wishi getting healed means doublade cant clean, but that's an entirely diff game at that pt.)
id also like 2 point out that specs magnets would have put in an extremely similar amount of work vs this team by doing nothing but clicking flash cannon; except flash cannon doesnt miss like blizz, magnets would not allow bee to get a chance 2 setup, AND magnets has enough defensive value 2 come in on eldegoss or a predicted giga rock blast. and on top of all this, franklins sole flash cannon switchin is hugely abusable by volt. i think it's an objectively healthy thing that slow, passive teams like this can be abused by strong mid speed breakers w low-to-mediocre defensive value, bc thats smth thats been present in nearly every modern tier on this site.

a lot of ppl end up w extremely slow paced builds that give popular breakers like vani, gallade, specs jelli, & magnets (as well as lesser used but still potent breakers like supergeist/trev, mortar, abomasnow, & vika) free reign 2 click attacks as often as they like & reactively answer 2 their damage output with singular answers. ive provided replays of a couple of these mons essentially winning at preview, & all the mons i provided replays 4 have showcased their ability 2 simply win at preview multiple time throughout swiss, pupl & grand slam. i believe this ability 2 simply explode slow teams with one or two good reads or after crippling an overloaded defensive glue is far from exclusive 2 vani, & vanis apparent unhealthiness is mainly due to it being the "easiest" way to do so; but this ignores the fact that vani brings quite literal negative defensive value 2 a team, unlike other breakers which can at least make an effort of hard switching on bulky waters, passive mons like eldegoss, max def sandslash, quagsire, & so on.
the immediate answer 2 these mons is stacking decent checks 2 said breakers, as well as giving urself room 2 outplay them offensively - see tj v crying, where the combo of giga + centi + toge + specs jelli renders cryings scarf(?) vani basically useless while still being a pretty solid lineup 4 the majority of the tier, tj v spl4sh where tspikes, gigalith, scyther & doublade combine 2 give vani little enough opportunity until doublade pretty easily finishes up the endgame, or qwily v tlenit where wish flareon, specs jelli, and offensive pressure from scyther being on field constantly disallow vani from doing much at all. the tj v spl4sh game in specific is important bc it shows a huge flaw in using vani; not only do u essentially give up a slot of defensive utility, but u also give free turns 2 the most dangerous cleaner in the tier, which can pretty quickly spell the end of a game when u no longer have the resources 2 check doublade by trying 2 support vani so hard. u could point 2 vani picking up 3 kos, inlcuding 1 on a gigalith double, as a sign of its brokenness - but it just as frequently ends up on the receiving end of a sweep just by nature of how punishable running it is, & i think that is another sign of balance.

the other answer to the breakers, as shane alluded 2 in his post, is simply running offenses that dont give vani or any other breakers of its ilk any chance 2 breathe. and increasingly ppl r finding that its pretty easy to toss a couple hazard mons, a doublade, and 3-4 demons & simply click buttons w the 1 that shreds the opponent team the quickest. however, shane mentions coalossal as practically required for offense, which is not something im rly seeing.... coalossal hasnt broken past 2 usages in pupl since week two, where, funnily enough, it actually was used more than the then underused vanilluxe. looking at swiss usage stats shows a similar trend, with coalossal only going above 2 usages one time in round 5, where it was used 4 times. to top it off, coal has seen a grand total of 0 uses in slam playoffs - if vani were forcing this mon onto the increasingly popular offensive builds, i feel it would certainly show leagues more often than this.
meteor beam archeops has been one of the most common perpetrators of this style, constituting both a rocker & a hard 2 contest fast breaker at once, but even mons that were almost unheard of b4 this summer like silv-grass, ludicolo, & turtonator have seen quite convincing wins thru structures like this. it seems to me like the pool of offensive wincons & breakers is quite deep & i believe the emergence of varied playstyles & the exploration of previously unused mons is another sign of healthy meta development. however, there is a rsn that these teams weren't seen much prior 2 this summer - they r rather inconsistent, partially due 2 the high amount of luck that intrinsically comes w ultrafast paced teams like these - 1 or 2 turns of poor luck can completely turn the tide for either player.
the bigger factor in their inconsistency, however, is a certain other tier culprit. zard has been the primary cause of the meta gradually slowing 2 a snails pace ever since the offensive water qb slate due to its almost complete lack of long term offensive counterplay, allowing these breakers 2 appear unhealthy bc slow fat balance is the only viable way 2 outlast this mon. like hera & ktut both alluded to, i believe zard is the actual perpetrator of the undesirable trajectory of the meta, & vani is simply exacerbating its effects by piling onto the exact same mons needed 2 check it. their list of defensive switchins reads practically the same: gigalith is the only consistent surefire answer, coalossal counts if u forget that coverage moves exist, and bulky waters like jelli/lanturn/wishi can help stave them off but ultimately dont win in the long run. the differences, however, are that vani completely frontloads its effect, dishing out huge dmg from turn 1 & making ppl go "whoa gigalith just took 40???" whereas zard sits on the field all game & slowly whittles down things until theyre in range of hurricane then simply winning from there - but vani has pretty sufficient counterplay in disallowing it from hitting the field w offensive pressure, hazards, & punishing its choice lock with counter sweeps, where zard has an actual solid defensive profile, recovery, an "immunity" to hazards, along with a rather unfair speed tier that means its only real decent offensive answer is hoping ur archeops can stay alive long enough 2 kill it. i'll refrain from goin 2 much further on this tangent tho as it's a tad outside the scope of the discussion.


despite vanilluxe's flaws, i think u can still make a decent argument for it being "not healthy" as hera said - it's a breaker with absolutely no defensive value or "purpose" other than 2 explode the enemy team, it does force pretty predictable gameplay when it hits the field, & its defensive counterplay is very slim indeed. at the end of the day, i wouldnt be particularly miffed were it 2 leave the tier... but i also find it very odd that a mon that has gigalith as its sole true answer is suddenly problematic when another mon has had the same status for almost a year now? anyways, if u actually read all this instead of skippin 2 the tl;dr ty :)

tl;dr vani's ability to punish slow teams is not unique & it doesn't excessively outperform the other numerous breakers we have. it is very strong, but exploitable, and is primarily held back by a non existent defensive profile. its presence is actively causing healthy metagame shifts - offense being good now is not a bad thing. vani is simply riding the wave of ppl having been far 2 focused on other impossible 2 handle threat(s). stop using defog zard, it's ass, 2/3 atks zard is the actual chokehold on this meta - test espeon and/or drampa if we need hazard control that bad. also we might need 2 start looking at scyther harder that mon is a little crazy
 
If you are frustrated with the metagame centralization that results in dealing w pkmn like charizard, scrafty, gallade, etc, you should want to ban vanilluxe. In my previous post, I explained how offensively checking vanilluxe is much more difficult to do in practice than it would seem on paper, which contributes to the uptick in these defensive structures with gigalith (who gives scrafty free turns unless u want to run a terrible moveset), eldegoss, and the other goons. Banning vanilluxe does not make offense worse, in fact it would be the opposite, as snow warning's chip adds up a lot onto offensive breakers and it gives you more freedom to role compress and use many diff offensive structures that vanilluxe currently invalidates.

I consider the obvious proxy post above to have a misleading analysis on the jon vs franklin game. The team facing vanilluxe has gigalith + (presuming bulky) doublade + two potential rkillers/offensive pressure in ribombee and sandslash in sand. Vanilluxe switching in should not be that easy to do as each of these Pokemon can threaten it/chip it in some capacity (eldegoss can leech and provide a safety cushion for gigalith/doublade as they attempt to answer vanilluxe defensively). This is not the "ideal vanilluxe mu". I would consider that more so to be the osh vs chloe game where there was no gigalith and vanilluxe overwhelmed aggron quickly. This match illustrates just how easy it is for vanilluxe to take advantage of small lures/techs (like bee tricking lith t1) to break teams that at least attempt to account for it in the tbuilder.

The t1 gigalith crippling and the fact that vanilluxe 1v1d a +1 QD bee were extremely impactful in the game (the latter of which is absurd btw, most neutral spatking mons cannot do this, let alone charizard who sometimes gets 1v1d in this position).

Vanilluxe doesn't require specs btw, spikes support will do the trick too and you can use boots or w/e else you want. Specs with spikes support is more than welcome though. I also find it amusing how the post above cites that blizzard is "comfortably stomached by our various waters" + "niche bulky fire types" without citing any examples (there aren't good ones which is why none were listed). I had a game vs stresh where he broke through my jellicent with blizzard vanilluxe by freezing it as it switched in. I'd be very interested to see what "comfortably stomachs" blizzard outside of terrible pkmn, because not even gigalith can do this (takes 40% lol).
 
While I was initially leaning towards Ban, after playing with and against it at length I find the discourse around Vanilluxe's Pro-Ban arguments so concerning, and the evidence so uncompelling, that I am now fairly certain that I will be voting Do Not Ban.

In addition to the fact that players regularly pass up opportunities to kill Vanilluxe for some reason (Wish-ing, Rest-ing, Rock-ing, Coverage-ing), I see three major points that concern me.

1. The belief that the level of offensive pressure, tempo, and threat applied by common meta staples like Eldegoss, Wishiwashi, Defensive Sandslash, Whimsicott, etc. is 'enough', qualifies as sufficient preparation for Vanilluxe, and should pressure/win the matchup but for Vanilluxe's allegedly overbearing ease of use, bulk. and power.

First off, I believe that the floor for what can reasonably be defined as a 'deterrent' for Vanilluxe to be set too low. Hitting it with a neutral that doesn't 2HKO it without rocks is not a deterrent, Leech Seeding it is not a deterrent, paralyzing it without threatening a 2HKO is not a deterrent. In my opinion, if you are running a team in which every member is outsped by Vanilluxe, and and in which 3 or even 4 out of 6 team members cannot actually deter a reasonably supported Vanilluxe from switching in, you have built a Vanilluxe-weak team and the opponent has rightfully earned the Blizzard that's coming.

How many times do you intend to let Vanilluxe in before it has 'earned' the right to pick your very slow and bulky team apart? 2? 3? 5?

2. The suggestion that letting Vanilluxe in and being forced with the choice of eating a Blizzard or a Freeze Dry is unreasonably punishing for the bulky balance currently defining the tier.

Once Vanilluxe enters the field safely, it is fair to say that its decision tree is fairly straightforward. However, given the fact that it is vulnerable to all hazards, rock weak, boasts no resistances, and eats 2HKOs from multiple forms of medium-strength, uninvested neutral coverage with rocks down, how much reward is an adequate reward?

To start, let's apply the assumption that Coalossal, SDef Flareon, Centiskorch, Magmortar are all so unviably terrible and so shafted by a terrible Water Pulse predict (which only KOs Coalossal of the bunch) that locks the Luxe player into an awful move that they do not qualify as reasonable answers to the ice cream cone. I don't agree with this assumption, but let's roll with it anyway.

It is commonly asserted that Blizzard is the obvious choice, taking a 40% bite out of Gigalith, threatening 2HKOs on Aggron and Toge, among other impressive feats. What goes unmentioned, however, is that Blizzard has just a 70% chance to actually hit Gigalith. Attempting a 2HKO on a chipped Gigalith has just a 49% chance of success, and presents a considerable 51% (*.9 for accuracy) risk of almost certain death by Rock Blast. It can also, shockingly, miss on the first shot, which wastes the effort taken to switch-in a mon with very limited defensive utility, and cedes tempo to Gigalith. This is a risk-reward that Vanilluxe players must stomach, and I take issue with the idea that the reward (a janky 3HKO against a mon that could very well have Rest + Cleric support) is somehow disproportionate.

Freeze Dry is a nice, accurate option with an added (very annoying) Freeze chance, but introduces a slew of safe and often punishing switch-ins including the obvious Giga, Aggron, Toge as well as Audino, BU Scrafty, Evio Magneton.

And this is to entirely leave out the fact that Blizzard spam is perfectly well stomached by such splashable meta staples as PhysDef WishiWashi and PhysDef Jellicent. Are they perfect answers that can immediately force out Vanilluxe? No. Does that mean Vanilluxe is gigabusted? I don't think so.

Could it freeze you? Yes of course. Honestly that's my biggest problem with Vanilluxe as it stands, but given the current evidence it's not enough to tip me over to the pro-ban side of the fence.

3. The too-frequent assumption that the Vanilluxe player somehow has perfect hazard control.

As previously mentioned, Vanilluxe is vulnerable to all forms of hazards. Players are under no obligation to simply allows Vanilluxe to switch in over, and over, and over again. One common issue that I've observed is that protecting Gigalith from undue chip prevents players from setting their Rocks in a timely fashion. If that is your problem, I don't particularly sympathize with you. You are perfectly within your rights to pick another Rock setter and take the burden off of Gigalith, who is frequently defensively overburdened even outside of the Vanilluxe threat. If you choose not to, that is a sacrifice that you are making in the name of role compression.

It is severely understated how often Vanilluxe switches in, viciously and unfairly abuses Gigalith with its 70% chance to deal 40% of its health...and eats Rocks + Sand damage - 31% of its health - for the trouble. Vanilluxe is now in a position to risk being OHKO'd/outsped and 2HKO'd on the switch-in by almost everything of substance if it cannot remove Rocks from the field, including such powerhouse moves as:

-Uninvested Def Sandslash's Earthquake
-Uninvested Def Sandaconda's Earthquake
-Uninvested Def Eldegoss' Leaf Storm
-Uninvested Def Quagsire's Earthquake
-Uninvested Def Weezing's Flamethrower
-Uninvested Utility Whimsicott's Moonblast/Giga Drain
-Uninvested defensive Aromatisse's Moonblast (barely, but it's still a risk, becoming 94% likely with even one extra turn of sand)

PU has a hazard removal problem as it is. I simply don't buy the idea that keeping Rocks up against Vanilluxe is too much to ask. Teams running Vanilluxe need to bend over backwards to keep hazards off the field if they're going to have any chance of breaking through the tier's most dominant defensive cores, which leads to vulnerable and predictable patterns of play and teambuilding restrictions that I don't think are being adequately taken into consideration at the moment.

------------

None of this is to assert that Vanilluxe requires some ungodly amount of skill to pilot, but moreso to draw attention to the fact that Vanilluxe punching holes in a team doesn't just 'happen' by sheer unbalanced might. If Vanilluxe thundercocks a slow team that is one Freeze away from being swept, I just don't think that's a problem of Vanilluxe as much as it is an indictment of the prevailing teambuilding philosophy currently common in the tier.

My personal experience with Vanilluxe has always indicated to me that higher-tempo playstyles severely limit its impact. It is not so difficult to run Archeops, Scyther, Scrafty, Charizard, Gallade, Silvally-forms, Perrserker, Magneton, Arctovish, Doublade, and Togedemaru in a fashion that severely pressures Vanilluxe from even entering the field. It is even less difficult to splash a Gigalith onto one of those teams that already limits Vanilluxe's opportunities, almost entirely neutering it.

Furthermore, Vanilluxe is not some sort of cancerous growth or alien invader spontaneously manifesting in the PU tier. I say this because its surge in popularity should positively and naturally contribute to the perceived viability of offense, tempo, and specific answers like Flareon, rather than see them dismissed as 'unviable' simply because balance is the preferred and incumbent staple.

It is not just bizarre, but borderline irresponsible to portray the act using playstyles and 'mons that you wouldn't normally, and that have otherwise negative matchups against the prevailing meta, to answer Vanilluxe's newfound popularity as somehow being forced to use unviable garbage.

Quite frankly, and in as kind a fashion as I can assert such an opinion, I don't think everyone has made an honest attempt to deal with Vanilluxe in a manner other than getting it banned, nor do I find pro-ban arguments and evidence sufficiently compelling in light of my personal experience with it. Do I hate it when my Gigalith gets frozen and hit by 3 Blizzards in a row in the sand? Of course, but of all the threats I have to account for in the tier right now, that one in particular doesn't especially stand out.
 
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ManOfMany

I can make anything real
is a Tiering Contributor
Vanilluxe is a really strong breaker. It fulfills its role at destroying slower pokemon pretty well and doesn't really go above and beyond that. I don't find it particularly crazy compared to other strong breakers in the tier such as Gallade. To be honest, about half the time I was using Vanilluxe I wished it was an Abomasnow instead (I tested both out on Ladder). The presence of Gigalith is quite annoying, because just the ability to miss the first Blizzard can suck all the momentum from your team. When I was using Aboma this was less of an issue because Leaf Storm does an upwards of 75% to Gigalith, so it's definitely more of a threat to those specific teams. That being said, Vanilluxe's sheer power vs pokemon like Audino and Scrafty was also appreciated.

I don't think Banning Vanilluxe will fix any of the issues with the metagame. The stale teambuilding with Gigalith/Bee and a rotation of Wishiwashi/Charizard/Doublade/Sandslash on every team doesn't really have to do too much with Vanilluxe. Gigalith is just really damn good and easy to fit on teams because it checks so many special attackers, most of which are more common than Vanilluxe. Ribombee's speed and utility is unmatched... although it can get quite passive as Ktut said. The fact that these types of teams get eaten alive by powerful wallbreakers isn't really too much of an issue, because otherwise there would be no drawbacks to running these teams at all. The best way to limit wallbreakers is with using Offense, and I think we are seeing that with upcoming weeks of PUPL. People are adapting to the meta a little bit, it's not all just predictable Gigalith balance but a mixture of offense, balance, and even stall. (Stall actually has a better matchup vs mons like Vanilluxe because they can afford dedicated counters). This is the signs of a healthier tier coming, and I am optimistic that people will be creative enough to experiment.

I do understand that there are some problems in the tier which make it hard to build without certain pokemon. Charizard for example, with its great offense as well as longevity, definitely puts a lot of strain in the builder. However, I don't think it reached a critical point where a ban is necessary because Gigalith and Rock-types/Water-types are still quite common and good.

If I were to suspect any one pokemon it would be Scrafty. Scrafty is incredibly limiting to teambuilding because of its various different sets, all of which are very viable. This includes DD with various items, Bulk Up (btw this can run Toxic for Quagsire if you like), Choice Band, even Substitute + 3 atks. It is one of the main why people are running Ribombee on every team, a pokemon that takes 75% + from poison jab ( I've been running DD Life Orb to straight up kill it). Scrafty finds its way into play very easily due to its bulk and typing unlike most of the wallbreakers we've talked about, and the ability to check it often devolves into a few coin flips. That being said, its initial power can often be lacking and all its sets have counterplay because it cannot possibly run both Dragon dance, heal Status, and be super bulky all in one.

Also, some other users on Discord have got me thinking. I would suspect Guzzlord because I believed it to be a somewhat healthy addition to the tier. Guzzlord's ability to wear down bulky cores was fairly strong but it could be somewhat warded off with sheer bulk + good switching (unlike Vanilluxe for example). I liked its ability to be an Offensive Tank mon because it could check pokemon like Charizard while also providing some offensive power of its own. It seems like a Quickban may have been too hasty since there wasn't really much evidence of it being too overwhelming in practice.
 
Wanted to bring up something I thought interesting. The point I want to bring up with Ice Cream is the Specs set. None of the other sets, good or poor, are as problematic. This thing is being suspect because of the threatening Specs set. Which brings me to my main point...

We do have 3 PUBL mons that were similarly banned because of "Specs being broken" and have similarities to Ice Cream. These are: Clawitzer, Drampa, and Exeggutor-Alola. A quick glance at stats shows them all to be similarly bulky. So is anything different? Ice Cream's major move is by far weaker (excluding Claw, who makes up for this by having superb choice and power in its coverage). But more important then that, it only really has one big move. Which it compensates by running weak secondary options. Ultimately it only wants to do one thing, Blizzard. Whereas those others mons you were forced into trying to guess against multiple strong moves nearly equal in power (Draco/Hyper Voice or Draco/Leaf Storm or Launcher boosted everything) Making a wrong coverage move choice with Ice Cream likely results in paltry damage. That's where the real damage falloff is between Cone and the others. While something like a Specs flamethrower does chunks. A Specs Water Pulse does not and nearly makes everything not weak laugh.

Claw had a ridiculous amount of coverage (and U-turn).
Drampa hit way too hard.
And Eggy came in way too easily.

Against those 3, Vanilluxe in every case:
-Has the worst coverage options (as in, nearly nonexistent and lacking in power vs neutral targets)
-Is the most predictable
-Hits the weakest with main move or coverage moves
-Is the hardest to get in, despite the speed due to typing, and additionally is the only one weak to rocks, it has problems direct switching into anything without risk comparatively

Compared to these BLs I feel Cone is a one-trick pony. And its one trick is predictable and not superbly decimating. Ultimately it is easier to defend against compared to something like Scrafty. However, Vanilluxe since it is the newest "danger mon" feels like an intruder to a meta that requires checks to many different things already or it feels like you autolose to rando mon and thus feels like its stressing teambuilding way more then anything else, when really it isn't. In time I think, barring no changes to the tier for the foreseeable future (impossible) that Vanilluxe is something we can adapt to.

I would prefer to ban something else first that disassembles the current stale teams into something allowing more variance, not something that just takes advantage of them. Or retest Viri and/or Espeon.

wheres snowslash?
 

Vulpix03

is a Tiering Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
RUPL Champion
Would just like to clarify, again, that the reason behind the council starting a suspect for Vanilluxe is NOT to shake the meta up. If we wanted to do this then we would suspect Charizard or Doublade. Even if we wanted to "make the meta less boring", this is not a valid reason to ban or unban any pokemon. Boring does not mean uncompetitive, if it did then gen 8 ou would have banned half the tier by now.
The question you should ask yourself when voting for Vanilluxe is not "does this change the meta" but instead should be "do I find Vanilluxe to be broken or unhealthy in this tier".
The reason why I feel the need to continue to post the above point is because it truly does pain me that people view the Vanilluxe suspect test and suspect tests in general in this way. It is the objectively wrong way to view the suspect process.

On to other points I wanted to respond to. I won't quote other posts because it's hard to do that on phone but I'll respond to posts in this thread.

There is a misconception that bro ban players are unwilling to use offense / lazy builders who just want to use fat. This is just wrong, at least for users such as Chloe stresh and myself (excal too but fuck that guy amirite). I personally love to use offense and HO, and I think both play styles are underrated and that we have the tools to make them good in the current meta. That being said, I believe that Vanilluxe is vastly underrated against more offensive teams. People post as if Vanilluxe shits on Gigalith fat and that's all it does, but it's simply not true. Against more offensive teams Vanilluxe can bare minimum go 1:1, and this is GREAT for a quote on quote "slow frail breaker". For the record, Vanilluxe is actually quite bulky, bulkier than Dragapult if we want to use an example. Not many faster pokemon can actually OHKO it and it can OHKO a lot of things back.
One user posted the replay of Jon filch vs the Franklin. If anything, this showed that Vanilluxe IS bulky. It lived a +2 moonblast from a Ribombee, which although it's a roll the fact that it can live at all is amazing. It also 1v1d the Ribombee despite the Bee getting a quiver dance off while Vanilluxe switched in. The fact that people continue to call Vanilluxe frail just means they are uninformed or they are doing so in bad faith.

Next, similar to the "lazy builders don't want to use offense" comment, there was also a "lazy builders don't want to use Flareon, etc." Argument.
Yes, this tier has some lesser used switch ins to Vanilluxe, and they are used less than other mons for a reason. Miltank is a cool mon but incredibly hard to build with and can be easy to abuse. Flareon, if we are being honest, is terrible. It functions as a worse togedemaru that is way harder to build with. It also doesn't really beat anything outside of Ribombee. Charizard beats it, Vanilluxe can bust past it, it's a fire type that loses to Doublade, etc.
My point is that yes these pokemon can switch into Vanilluxe, but they are also all hard to build with and in Flareon's case would never be used if Vanilluxe was not in the tier. We shouldn't have to reach and use a shit pokemon like Flareon to check something if said something is a healthy part of the metagame.

As for zoowis point about Vanilluxe not being on the level of Eggy-a / Clawitzer / Drampa, I agree (I actually think Vanilluxe is more broken than drampa though). Vanilluxe is not as broken as the above but just because something isn't "as broken" doesn't mean it isn't still broken. To use an extreme comparison, that's like saying someone who murdered 1 person shouldn't go to jail because other people murdered 3 people, and are thus worse people. Now if you think Vanilluxe is not broken period then that's fine, but "not as broken" shouldn't be a reason.
Also even though blizzard isn't as strong as draco meteor or leaf storm, it also doesn't have the drawback of lowering your spatk and is more spammable in the current meta. Eggy, Clawitzer and Drampa are definitely broken, but they are also more prediction reliant and more reliant on coverage. Vanilluxe clicks blizzard 80% of the time and oftentimes doesn't need to click anything else.

To conclude, please for the love of God stop bringing up metagame diversity as a reason to ban / unban something. The council did not start this suspect and will never start a suspect for the sake of "shaking it up". Ask yourself "do I believe this Mon to be broken or not" while making your decision.
 
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I think vanilluxe is more broken than drampa was and am down to resuspect the latter if other ppl are bc there's a much higher penalty to its locks (including immune types to its stabs and a harsh spatk drop), more answers available in the builder, less bs factor, and the bulkier sets are dope.

Also I do empathize w ppl who think banning ice cream won't change the tier that much. I agree, but i don't think that's a bad thing and i think the mon is broken even if not to as extreme an extent as i may have implied earlier.
 
I came just shy of making reqs but after spending a ton of time on ladder playing both with and against Vanilluxe, I'm leaning tentatively towards ban.

Why Vanilluxe centralizes the tier in a different way from centralizing threats in other tiers
Plenty of tiers are centralized. Usually tiers with centralizing mons are focused around something that has a certain amount of defensive utility, like Lando-T in recent gen OUs or Snorlax in gen 2 OU. But tiers have also been centralized around offensive mons with little defensive utility in the past, like Calyrex-Shadow in gen 8 Ubers or Tauros in gen 1 OU. Vanilluxe falls into the latter category, but here's why I think it's unhealthy rather than healthy.

Generally what allows a centralizing threat to still be healthy is the existence of a consistent check. Yveltal consistently checks Calyrex-Shadow, Rhydon consistently checks Tauros. This sets up an environment where players can express their strategy by figuring out how to beat those checks, beat the checks to the checks, etc. This is where Vanilluxe is different.

There is no viable mon that consistently checks Vanilluxe. Against Specs variants, Gigalith gets a single switch-in before hitting 2HKO range, even without accounting for entry hazards. The problem of potential Blizzard misses in sand is mitigated for Vanilluxe by the recent advent of Frost Breath as the 4th moveslot. There's also the potential for Vanilluxe to overcome checks thanks to freeze luck. Even safer switch-ins like Miltank can be taken advantage of by HDB sets, which can break through with Taunt, cripple with Toxic or use the presence of a passive mon like Miltank to set up Aurora Veil. In short, there's no effective way to prepare for Vanilluxe outside of having multiple mons dedicated to sharing the load. The most effective way seems to be Gigalith plus a Water with enough SpD to comfortably tank Blizzard, which pressures Vanilluxe to click the weaker Freeze-Dry. This dynamic in the teambuilder gives Vanilluxe users an inherent advantage, as opponents must use 2 team slots to prepare for a threat that takes only 1 team slot.

Why other Specs breakers like Magneton are not the same as Vanilluxe
One of the most common arguments I see against the ban is that another powerful Specs breaker, usually Magneton, will immediately fill the void left by Vanilluxe. It's true that Specs Magneton is a really powerful wallbreaker that benefits from having a dedicated answer, but Magneton doesn't work the same way Vanilluxe does. For one thing, Magneton has two solid counters in Volt Absorb Lanturn and specially defensive Togedemaru that can wall it completely. Both of them can also take advantage of choice locked Magneton sets to generate momentum, which makes blind clicking with Magneton way riskier than with Vanilluxe. Magneton obviously isn't the only other possible Specs breaker (Articuno-G, Magmortar...) but the point stands for all of them - they have consistent checks where Vanilluxe does not.

It also happens that a lot of the best fast mons in the tier can't threaten a revenge kill on Vanilluxe. Articuno, Mesprit, Ribombee, Scyther and Whimsicott don't OHKO full health Vanilluxe with their standard sets. There are still viable and common revenge killing options like Charizard and Gallade, but the large majority of the tier cannot come into Vanilluxe off the back of a KO and expect to either outspeed and KO it or tank a hit and KO back unless Vanilluxe has significant prior damage. Magneton in this example can be much more easily exploited: any Ground or Water type can come in after a KO and immediately threaten Magneton out. Magneton is especially afraid of Sand Rush Sandslash, which can switch in on a predicted Electric move, then outspeed and OHKO with Earthquake.

Why banning Vanilluxe would improve the format
Having a mon with no defensive checks in the format forces players to play an incredibly careful, reserved, and slow-paced game, because taking chip on your Gigalith can mean an entire game loss. I think a good comparison is early gen 8 OU when Dracovish was legal: players had to play to protect Seismitoad, because losing it meant Dracovish was going to start racking up KOs extremely fast. It's not just that players need to devote one, or even two teamslots to things that check Vanilluxe, it's that those checks can't afford to do anything else for the whole game other than check Vanilluxe. Being forced to play to protect your team's single point of failure prevents players from exploring offensive strategies, or even playing aggressively as long as Vanilluxe is still up. Not only are fat teams the only viable teams, but slow, defensive play is the only viable playstyle, because smaller defensive cores are too fragile in the face of Vanilluxe.

Banning Vanilluxe will give players the opportunity to play offensively again. The current popular style of bulky balance team will still be viable, but will have more opportunities to take advantage of Gigalith beyond just tanking Blizzards. More offensive teams that use smaller defensive backbones will also have an opportunity to shine, with defensive momentum generators like Lanturn or Wishiwashi able to take more of the weight and not needing to rely on a whole teamslot just to not get killed by ice spam.
 
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