I've definitely seen volc on offense commonly and a bit of victini here and there, but for the mostpart after pert continues to passively weaken everything things like lando and victini are no longer real switchins. Volc coming in early was a bit exploitable thanks to yawn pert, and in general flip turns went flying left and right. Another thing I noticed: although lando is a pretty solid check to zamazenta, with support from rocks and other passive chip lando turns into death fodder. I feel like zamazenta just cleaned up way too easily most games, but it wasn't the most broken thing in the world. HO got smashed basically every single time I played it, as volc is pressured to switch in a lot and was quickly overloaded. To how viable bulkarona is on hyper offense, it's inconvenient to say the least. Like i said in my earlier post about my thoughts on zama,bringing in a lategame sweeper like volc in so often was not only extremely inconvenient as HO really didn't have a reliable switchin vs volc's counters, but also exploitable by doubling out into something who's offensive presence overwhelms volc. In conclusion, I wouldn't go so far as to say zama is just free wins (because it very clearly isn't) but it's definitely pressuring when combined with the rest of the members on a team, and I would say that HO still does't stand much of a chance vs zama with proper prediction.
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Yeah I agree with all of this. It really does seem like hyper offense struggles against Zamazenta. Bulky offense, balance, and stall can more easily fit checks to Zamazenta it seems. So you're essentially leaning towards ban at this point because of Zamazenta making HO struggle a ton, and centralizing the meta towards more bulky teams. Even if HO is only one playstyle it still limits the fun and versatility of the teams you can build if you can't afford to stack a team of purely offensively oriented wall breakers and sweepers in Zama- C meta.
Good post as far as exploring Zamazenta's HO matchup goes, even if I disagree! I've seen a lot of people discussing Zamazenta-C's matchup against the archetype, and I would like to really quickly talk about this and explain why I don't really think Zamazenta-C's matchup against HO is nearly as debilitating as it might seem at a glance. I loosely explored this in my original post, but I'd like to elaborate since this is a pretty major contention against Zamazenta-C that I haven't explained my stance on much.
There are a few different variables to look at when it comes to breaking down Zamazenta-C's matchup against HO: namely, its bulk, speed, and damage output. It's also imperative to gauge all three of these together, since the package is what makes Zamazenta-C appear so terrifying.
Bulk and Speed
I feel as though the main things that make Zamazenta-C stand out as far as challenging offensive teams goes mainly center around its bulk and speed, which allow for it to not only take a key hit or two, but also actually retaliate before other Pokemon in most circumstances given its legitimately fantastic speed tier. This is the thing that most people have been looking at, and I think this is mostly what could considerably be the main issue since revenge killing it appears to be a pain on paper. However, as I've stated before, I think Zamazenta's longevity is given more credit than it actually should be given. Zamazenta-C is not only weak to some really common offensive types and neutral to types that it really doesn't want to be as a Steel-type, but its bulk decreases over time upon consecutive uses of Close Combat, which is particularly prominent as it is Zamazenta-C's most spammable option and is what almost every Zamazenta-C set should be running for optimal damage output. This is also worsened by its inability to heal without Wish/terrain support, and although many of its calcs appear scary at a glance, overwhelming it can prove to be a pretty easy feat since it can't sustain itself otherwise. As for Speed, any fast Pokemon is a trouble for offense regardless of bulk, especially given HO's inherent volatility; but, unlike threats like Zeraora, Dragapult, and Tornadus-T, it has some caveats that can be exploited, such as its subpar immediate power and inability to exploit its checks with progress or status. Banning it upon this principle, in my eyes, feels like a double-standard, especially when the thing that's supposedly what makes this Speed tier unacceptable is not nearly as major as people have made it out to be due to how easily it can be both chipped and threatened out.
Zamazenta-C's best way to be used against offense is to keep it healthy as a win condition or revenge killer, exploiting its bulk and speed to take key hits and picking off dangerous wallbreakers. If it is used this way, it will usually never see the light of day until either the conditions are properly set for it or if the threat it wants to check switches in since keeping it healthy is so important. Typically this means limiting Zamazenta-C's options for an escape once sent in, forcing it to sustain potentially key chip damage and inevitably lose against priority users or speedier threats, and just outright limiting its opportunities to do its job in general. However, obviously, it should be accounted for, but if you set up a Dragon Dance Dragapult with a full health Zamazenta-C in the back, losing to it is your own fault. There are a good amount of speedy HO Pokemon that are operated in this way, and although Zamazenta-C's attributes are utilized differently, they are able to be worked around pretty naturally due to its natural drawbacks.
Damage Output
The big contention I have against Zamazenta-C as far as its matchup against offense goes is its damage output in spite of its bulk and speed. This is extremely prominent, as this part has to consider Zamazenta-C's offensive type combination and the coverage options it runs. Fighting- and Steel-type STABs are fairly solid, but not only do they have a wealth of natural resistances in the tier that offenses can very easily exploit (alongside 4MSS forcing Zamazenta to pick and choose what it beats), but this also has to consider Zamazenta-C's immediate power or the turn it spends setting up a boost just to augment its damage output. Against Screens HO--the most common form of HO--this is an extremely prominent issue, as Zamazenta-C's lackluster immediate power leaves it prone to either being set up against, or just outright overwhelmed. A majority of Screens abusers such as Garchomp, Rillaboom, Volcarona, Aegislash, or even more niche options like Moltres-Galar, Blaziken, and Urshifu-R have no issues in taking a hit (sometimes even without screens) boosting in most cases, and then easily overloading it with their move of choice, or even just outright attacking without a boost and doing a shitload of damage. Aegislash and Volcarona are both outright counters to Zamazenta-C and have been rising stars for a while anyway due to their other natural benefits, and Zamazenta-C only really helps that cause as opposed to defining it.
Other Matchups
Weather is an HO archetype that has no issue in overloading Zamazenta-C, with the only weathers that really lose to it being Solo-Tyranitar Sand and Hail. Rain, which is considered to be likely the strongest, completely manhandles Zamazenta-C. Not only does Zamazenta-C get completely overloaded by Barraskewda and other Swift Swim users due to its lack of a Water-type resist, but its best check--Zapdos--is considered to be a Rain staple, and has been even before Zamazenta-C. Rain inherently is a HO archetype that is based in pivoting, overloading, and chipping key threats; bluntly, if Zamazenta-C is put into a winning position against Rain, that is simply your own fault. Sand that's facilitated by Hippowdon beats Zamazenta-C as well, simply because of Hippowdon's presence, which we've well deduced beats Zamazenta-C pretty reliably. Sand cores as of recent have been running options like Tangrowth and occasionally Amoonguss, too, to alleviate pressure from Hippowdon to take on all the heat and be overloaded, and Zamazenta-C isn't really the sole reason for this, either. Sun is less common and more finnicky due to Stealth Rock being a variable, but Torkoal can beat it under the right conditions, and Victini under Sun is run standardly regardless due to its nuclear V-create and a relevant speed tier. We've also seen an uptick in Corviknight which is a very good Ground-type immunity for the archetype, allowing the archetype to have a more reliable form of removal, as well as providing a sound Zamazenta-C check and helping to get it worn down, be it through Close Combat drops to put it in a disadvantageous position, or force major Wild Charge chip damage. Zamazenta-C also loses to Venusaur once set up, pretty much forcing it to either sustain key damage as it tries to outright attack Venusaur, or just lose to Weather Ball after Venusaur boosts.
Webs HO is less common, but Zamazenta-C is greatly troubled by it even with some positive aspects against the matchup, as it loses a key aspect that makes it so scary: its speed. A majority of Webs abusers are able to very readily overwhelm Zamazenta-C when its Speed is nuked, and given its lack of recovery and outright proneness to chip damage, overloading it is not nearly as tall of an order as it might look at a glance. Although it beats Bisharp as a Defiant user, Zapdos-Galar is something Zamazenta-C has to watch out for, both when its speed is dropped or when it has +2 Attack. Aegislash is also a Webs staple, and is considered to be a very good means of Zamazenta-C counterplay anyway.
VoltTurn teams are inherently centered around positioning and buttering up a team before getting in a win condition. Zamazenta-C is barely counterplay to this, if even. Dragapult, arguably its best offensive check, is a VoltTurn staple that can easily spread status and overload Zamazenta-C with its Hex, Shadow Ball, or coverage of choice.
Balanced Offense teams should always be able to beat Zamazenta-C. BO cores should always have a workable backbone, and even if Zamazenta-C somehow beats it, there are a wealth of aforementioned offensive checks that can easily revenge kill it or threaten it naturally. As explored prior, my BO team didn't even have majorly dedicated counterplay, and my matchup against Zamazenta-C barely broke a sweat.
Nature of HO
I feel it's also important to mention that HO is an inherently volatile archetype. As a playstyle, it cannot be relied on to perform consistently, because it simply cannot. Its success is based on maintaining momentum and the upper edge through extreme aggression and on-point positioning, and although Zamazenta-C adds to that, it is not solely responsible for shutting that down, if even, because momentum is something that is maintained by good, smart positioning, and is something that needs to always be intact for the archetype to actually work.
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Ultimately, my point here is that although Zamazenta-C can be a solid win condition against offensive teams, it still needs to have conditions properly set up against a majority of HO archetypes before it can do its job because of its lack of longevity, proneness to being overwhelmed, subpar damage output and proneness to sustaining damage if it tries to offset that, as well as 4MSS pigeonholing key matchups.
Zamazenta-C alone is nowhere near as restrictive as it's been made out to be toward HO or general offenses, especially because it operates fairly similarly to other HO checks and is checked naturally due to its troubling caveats; and even with its success, there are natural inconsistencies that come with HO that have always been there that Zamazenta-C is not solely responsible for, if even.
I agree with all the points you made, zama really does have it rough vs sand balance and stall/fat balance, as well as BO being able to fairly easily incorporate a zama check, Zapdos being the main one but other options such as helmet tang, helmet pex (if kept healthy enough) also exist. Even on HO things like lando and volc are enough to keep zama from being basically an autowin. The main problem I have with it’s presence is that it just shifts the meta over to the bulkier side, since HO became significantly less consistent, even with these soft checks, which was the main way to break past stall/fat balance. I for one prefer an HO vs HO meta rather than a fat vs fat meta, but that’s just my opinion. Basically I feel that zama makes fat a lot harder to break and generally much better than before, which is why I want zama gone.
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I appreciated you posting this analysis! In a previous post, and you helpfully mentioned some common HO checks to Zama, including Buzzwole, Aegislash, Victini, Offensive Zapdos, Volcarona, and Dragapult. And at least on paper,offense still has plenty of ways of revenge killing Zamazenta, like Hawlucha and stuff like Sand Rush Excadrill or Venusaur in the Sun. Which means we have checks and counters of various degrees at least on Sun offensive, Rain Offense, Sand offense, Sticky Web Offensve, and Generic HO in general. But I wasn't confident in this stance because you yourself mentioned that your HO team wasn't super consistent:
Screens Grass Spam HO
While this team isn't really super consistent, it's a pretty neat low ladder buster that aims to overload and blow down conventional Zamazenta and Volcarona checks. Zamazenta-C can admittedly be swapped out for Hawlucha and Rillaboom can don its much more fearsome Life Orb variant, but Zamazenta definitely pairs well on Grass spam since it both benefits from the terrain Rillaboom sets, and from their ability to overload Zamazenta's checks. The make of this team can definitely be solidly adapted into a more standard balanced offense or VoltTurn that utilizes Grass spam to a similar effect, but this works pretty well too. Grimmsnarl, I've found, is also a really neat screens setter since it provides a check to what is considered to be the quintessential Screens offense destroyer: Dragapult. This isn't the place to gush about Grimmsnarl, though, so I'll save that for elsewhere; I just felt it was important to contextualize in case someone wanted to try using the team.
Grimmsnarl's spread outspeeds standard Mandibuzz, and puts the rest into bulk to take on Dragapult more reliably. Volcarona's spread is geared to take at least 2 of any one of Zamazenta's moves, putting the rest into Special Attack to optimize its ability to take down Landorus-T before it can retaliate.
Which I think is important, as you mention HO by its very nature is less consistent and not as beginner-friendly compared to bulky offense and Balance, which offers more defensive pivots and sometimes even a wall or 2 that can safely switch in into major threats in the metagame. This is because HO mons are fast and powerful, but tend to be frail. Screens support can help alleviate this issue, but you often need to make sharp predictions ( and sometimes, simply get lucky with 50/50s, let's be real) and bet it all or you will simply lose. It's the pinnacle of a high risk- high reward playstyle.
But what I would greatly appreciate learning from you is the threshold of consistency that should be acceptable for HO as a playstyle in the OU metagame. If Zamazenta C makes this already slightly less consistent playstyle borderline unplayable, then naturally, the meta would be forcibly shifted to bulkier teams, which I think is one of the best arguments against Zama staying in the tier, aside from good arguments about it being able to overcome many of its checks especially with Electric Terrain ( hitting fat waters bar Quagsire as well as nailing Skarmory and Corviknight easier), Future Sight ( allowing it to pivot into dark types and alleviate pressure from its usual physically defensive checks in the tier), and Grassy Terrain Support ( offering some recovery, plus it has offensive synergy with Rillabloom which hits many bulky grounds and waters super-effectively, at which point you'd only need something like a Heatran to help deal with Zapdos, Volcarona, Skarmory, etc...)
So I like your stance and reasoning, but I'd like for someone on the pro-unban side (doesn't have to be you) to have some remarkable success story (ies) with HO to strengthen the counter-arguments against those who have argued pretty well about the centralizing influence Zamazenta has by apparently making HO almost unplayable.
This post seems very misguided. You start off trying to showcase that Zamazenta-C doesn't completely mandhandle offense/HO, but have to resort to examples of using BO/Balance builds to mention counter play. Teams running Hippo, Tang, Amoong are not even close to being considered HO.
The only legitimate examples are Rain, Sun, and Webs. Rain can hold it's own due to swift swimmers and Zapdos, but Zama still poses a significant threat. Because Rain can only threaten to revenge with CB Barra/Specs Kindgra after saccing something while Zama dominates the rest of the team. Being weak to rocks, Zapdos can only keep it in check if it is the Defensive HDB set, which mandates you to run a more balance centric build anyway, bringing us back to the first point I mentioned.
Similarly, the only thing sun has is Venusaur being able to threaten to revenge it with weather ball while sun is up, which is far from being enough of a counter measure. Not to mention, sun right now is a pretty bad and barely viable playstyle anyway.
Webs do limit Zama's speed, but it still dominates due to the virtue of it's typing and bulk. And even after the -1 speed drop, Zama outspeeds some breakers, namely Crawdaunt. Webs is an extremely temporary measure as they can easily be defogged away.
And it is obvious at this point that Zama completely shuts down every other HO build and most BO builds too. It is too bulky to KO while being able outspeed and KO back 95% of offensive mons in the tier.
You seem to make a lot of claims that simply aren't practical. Do you think Volt Turn teams can burn and paralyze Zama at will? And in what world is Dragapult an offensive check? It eats 80% from Behemoth Bash and even if it comes in on a predicted CC or in a 1v1 match up, it has to sacrifice itself to get a burn off. Specs Shadow Ball does 40% max, not even a 2HKO. Zama even wins 1v1 battles with offensive mons that have STAB SE moves, e.g. Chomp, Gapdos, Excadrill etc.
If you're running offense, you really have 3 choices to give you a fighting chance. Aegislash, Volcarona, and Victini. Aegislash is the most consistent and splashable check. Bulk Volc does check Zama, but as previously mentioned in this thread, having to bring out Volc early game opens up a lot of holes. Victini isn't the best thing in the world either.
Oh and, the most common Zama set, Howl Adamant, even muscles past Hippowdon and Tangrowth (unless sleep powder). Heck, it can also muscle past defensive Pex and Slowbro if the first scald doesn't burn.
I don’t agree with the sentiment that the only valid playstyles for offense are Rain, Sun, and Webs. 2 out of the three are niche playstyles that arent good in any sense due to their incredible amount of issues compared to Rain. I’d argue that Screens is a far more consistent structure of HO to build on, moreso than the other 2, and unlike those two, it doesnt struggle with Zamazenta-C much.
The structure usually always uses a setter that can get it up before Zama-C can move, usually Koko, or even Grimmsnarl, an option thats popped up due to its positive matchup vs offense ender CEO Dragapult, due to the decrease in Dark Type Offense with Zama-C in the mix.
Next are the abusers, whose offenses are futher bolstered by the fact that unlike webs, defogggers often struggle to force screens off the field, due to Taunt and/or the threat of decimation through a breaker like Mixed Garchomp, a common breaker on these types of teams. Stuff like Volcarona and the Grounds have already been mentioned to death as pokemon able to scare off Zamazenta-C, while things like Azumarill, Hawlucha, Rillaboom, Dragapult and even SD Kartana (try Chople Berry, it covers other things like Urshifu-RS and opposing Kartana)can do pretty decently if they set up before Zama-C comes in, in which offense is very good at finding opportunities for such things due to their aim for momentum and controlling the tides of the game. Zama-C very rarely can actually pick these things off due to the screens effectively removing the weakness to Zamazenta, which is a really bad look considering that I think that screens is currently the most consistent type of HO, alongside rain to an extent. I simply havent struggled with it while using offense as much as people claim it achieves. So what is it about Zamazenta-C that makes it the HO killer like i’ve heard all this time????
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I wanted a break from doing c&c work so I did this:
Anyway, I got reqs using a really fun HO with lead Heatran so I figured I'd talk about both the team I used and my thoughts on the mon of the hour.
I gave myself two challenges for this suspect test, the first being that I build my own team and the second being that said team include Zamazenta-C. I built and played a few games with various balance cores but could never quite get them to flow right, so I decided to run HO. I unironically felt like double therians covered soooo much of what Zama was uncomfortable playing against: Zapdos, Slowtins, Hippodown, Skarmory, Buzzwole, Volcarona, etc. Btw, I think Zama is an excellent HO mon due to its strong matchups against Pokemon like (Unaware) Clefable, Rillaboom, and Kartana. I paired this with lead Heatran to bait people into thinking my Lando was the Rocks + Boom lead set and then turn around lead this + endgame sweep with Double Dance Lando. Eleki is standard screens fare, having it over Tapu Koko was really nice because I could come in and answer +1 Volcarona with Explosion. Kommo-O was the last slot, I felt like it formed a really nice "fightspam" core with Zamazenta. Typically, one would force in checks that I could deal with using Thundurus-T, letting the other Fighter clear the game. Overall was some of the most fun I've had playing SS OU.
I was not decided on my opinion before I started this test and to a degree I'm still not 100% convinced, but I think Zamazenta might be too much for the tier. I was impressed at first that it wasn't as insane as I thought originally, but the more and more I play I worry about the health of the tier with Zamazenta potentially allowed in it. The current shift back to Rocky Helmet PhysDef mons and things like Zapdos and Volcarona seem very exploitable offensively from a long-term standpoint, as I feel something like the lack of residual recovery on Pokemon like Corviknight and Toxapex or the lack of Boots on Slowbro can quickly place a strain on defensive counterplay in longer games. I fear that over time Zama could go from a helpful Knock Off absorber and Rillaboom switchin to something that further strains the builder like the dozen other offensive juggernauts in this tier. We've already seen a lot of Tapu Lele being paired alongside Zamazenta due to their natural synergy and I don't think anyone needs any reminders about how scary an unchecked Specs Dragapult can be (which again, Zama synergizes very well with). So currently, I am of the ban party. I will try and play more games before the voting deadline to make sure my opinion is as solid as it can be, though.
Anyway, I got reqs using a really fun HO with lead Heatran so I figured I'd talk about both the team I used and my thoughts on the mon of the hour.
I gave myself two challenges for this suspect test, the first being that I build my own team and the second being that said team include Zamazenta-C. I built and played a few games with various balance cores but could never quite get them to flow right, so I decided to run HO. I unironically felt like double therians covered soooo much of what Zama was uncomfortable playing against: Zapdos, Slowtins, Hippodown, Skarmory, Buzzwole, Volcarona, etc. Btw, I think Zama is an excellent HO mon due to its strong matchups against Pokemon like (Unaware) Clefable, Rillaboom, and Kartana. I paired this with lead Heatran to bait people into thinking my Lando was the Rocks + Boom lead set and then turn around lead this + endgame sweep with Double Dance Lando. Eleki is standard screens fare, having it over Tapu Koko was really nice because I could come in and answer +1 Volcarona with Explosion. Kommo-O was the last slot, I felt like it formed a really nice "fightspam" core with Zamazenta. Typically, one would force in checks that I could deal with using Thundurus-T, letting the other Fighter clear the game. Overall was some of the most fun I've had playing SS OU.
I was not decided on my opinion before I started this test and to a degree I'm still not 100% convinced, but I think Zamazenta might be too much for the tier. I was impressed at first that it wasn't as insane as I thought originally, but the more and more I play I worry about the health of the tier with Zamazenta potentially allowed in it. The current shift back to Rocky Helmet PhysDef mons and things like Zapdos and Volcarona seem very exploitable offensively from a long-term standpoint, as I feel something like the lack of residual recovery on Pokemon like Corviknight and Toxapex or the lack of Boots on Slowbro can quickly place a strain on defensive counterplay in longer games. I fear that over time Zama could go from a helpful Knock Off absorber and Rillaboom switchin to something that further strains the builder like the dozen other offensive juggernauts in this tier. We've already seen a lot of Tapu Lele being paired alongside Zamazenta due to their natural synergy and I don't think anyone needs any reminders about how scary an unchecked Specs Dragapult can be (which again, Zama synergizes very well with). So currently, I am of the ban party. I will try and play more games before the voting deadline to make sure my opinion is as solid as it can be, though.
I've used HO for over half of my dozens (15-20 games a day for 9 of 10 days so far) of games on the ladder sine the Zamazenta-Crowned suspect began, ranging from my reqs run to nightly games in the 1700-1950ish range. HO has been just as effective as before with only minimal adaptations; I have even used the same 6 as the current HO sample team with a few set adaptations with decent success. HO is never going to be the most consistent playstyle, but it absolutely does not struggle in a Zamazenta-Crowned metagame and people claiming that it is suddenly invalidated have not actually played enough (see: only playing from 1000 to 1600 or so to get reqs over a small sample size -- this is nowhere near close to getting a full picture of the metagame and makes me wonder if a better system is needed in the future). The only variant of HO that got considerably worse was the double Dark team from the prior metagame; everything ranging from standard screens to weather teams and most things in between are still perfectly viable on the ladder right now and I implore you guys to try them out. If prompted, I can spend time outlining HOs I have had success with on the ladder even just to prove the point further.
I want to go through some arguments made that I really take issue with on this note while I have the chance, too.
Zamazenta-Crowned does not shut down either archetype, with BO arguably being better than ever before in this metagame. While that is technically an opinion that I can only back with my personal experiences and usage on the ladder, I can say for a fact that your claim about it KOing 95% of the offensive Pokemon in the tier is absolutely false and misinformation like this is a problem. Just going through the Pokemon that are categorically offensive some of the time in B+ through S in the current VR proves how misguided you are...
It can OHKO: Kartana, Hydreigon, Kyurem, Excadrill, Tapu Lele, and Tyranitar
It cannot OHKO: Landorus-Therian, Tornadus-Therian, Dragapult, Rillaboom, Tapu Koko, Nidoking, Zeraora, Dragonite, Aegislash, Hawlucha, Victini, Volcarona, and most Garchomp
Obviously of the Pokemon in the second list, it still matches up well against Rillaboom, some Zeraora, and most Dragonite. And in addition to that, 1v1 match-ups are oftentimes irrelevant in the context of gameplay, but the fact of the matter is that Zamazenta-Crowned does not have a great match-up against most offensive Pokemon without support and it absolutely does not KO most of them despite being offensively focused.
The claim that it shuts down anything is outright foolish in my experience, but a lot of people are claiming this about HO, so I get why this is the instinct. However, claiming it shuts down BO is ridiculous given how common it is in this metagame and how many pivots that fit onto BO teams can effectively check it without going out of their way.
First off, Jolly is more common, but regardless of this: it depends on if Hippowdon is PDef or SDef (PDef is more common rn), Tangrowth is almost always running Sleep Powder, Toxapex clicks Haze ALWAYS not scald, and Slowbro can force enough recoil to where Teleport into Specs Dragapult or a Scarf Ground type (or just Intimidate Landorus-T in general) is enough while also only taking 20-25% net damage after Regenerator. You are never fishing for Scald burn in the first instance against Zamazenta-Crowned.
My last post outlined a number of good offensive options in the metagame with Zamazenta-C, but I understand the quality of some other posts were lacking and oversights absolutely happened.
Either way, I just want to point out that this notion that "it shits on all currently popular physical sweeper strategies in the tier" is ridiculous. The only Pokemon it really shuts down are SD Bisharp, Crawdaunt, and Weavile. Rillaboom wins the 1v1 with an SD on the switch-in with either the LO or Grassy Seed variant so long as it is healthy. Even offensive SD Garchomp almost always lives Ice Fang and easily stomachs other attacks all while doing a lot in return, easily KOing if at +2. Hawlucha, BU Zeraora, and just about every Kommo-O variant are all neutral to positive against Zamazenta-Crowned, too. It is quite literally just the Dark types seeing a significant downgrade in viability.
New Pokemon quite literally are already popping up, too. Aegislash is experiencing a resurgence with both common sets, Victini and Volcarona are better than ever, and offensive Buzzwole is super promising right now. I believe this will continue to develop, too, but I cannot promise that much.
I do not know what type of metgame-deciphering calculations you are making, but match-up fishing is nowhere near "twice as bad" and the claim that Zamazenta-Crowned automatically wins the HO match-up is outright wrong. And balance teams do not require "slapping Volcaron on to your team to fish for a burn and a free win" when there are already a plethora of viable defensive and balanced checks. You are using exaggeration in order to emphasize points that are not actually developed whatsoever.
These are a handful (just the tip of the iceberg) of posters who are pro-ban or unsure what they are voting that outright admit that Zamazenta-Crowned does not meet the typical criteria for being banned/Ubers -- it clearly has enough counterplay and just about everyone is willing to admit it. The widespread argument on this side is that it leads to a suboptimal metagame state, but almost all of these posts where made pretty promptly and I genuinely feel that the trends on the ladder have shifted quite a bit through the test (and likely are to do so even more). I urge people to actually play more than the bare minimum and see if the playstyles you feel are made significantly worse are actually worse -- spoiler alert: it is not that straight forward.
The trend of people calling Zamazenta-Crowned something simultaneously mediocre and overwhelming is unlike anything I have ever seen before. I believe this is largely a result of people being resistant to change and scared of potential consequences rather than being willing to do their due diligence and forming strong arguments.
If all of the above did not make it clear enough, I am voting to unban Zamazenta-Crowned and I will happily spam hyper offense if it is kept free, too.
Ngl that team looks fire, rocks boom taunt tran with double dance lando and lefties
thundy-t sounds super fun. I too agree that zamazenta is a great HO mon, especially as an answer to bisharp and weav which usually shred through unprepared HO, and a great matchup vs unaware clef and kart as you said. And with screens up? That boi really never dies. I personally like wild charge > ice fang but that’s just preference. I will say that if I were using this HO I would want boots > lefties on thundy, but other than that super solid team. I built and recently perfected a zamazenta HO squad, which I managed to get reqs with. Here’s the team:
https://pokepast.es/5d81f64192f25aff (not sure why only zamazenta’s sprite shows but it doesn’t really matter)
This team was made to abuse the fuck out of zamazenta’s bulk and speed tier. Being able to outspeed the lati twins even with adamant is great, as specs lati is problematic for webs to deal with. With webs up, all kart needs to do is hit the Zapdos with a swift +2 knock off for zamazenta to tear past the rest of their team. Kart in general is a mon I love to use not only for sweeping, but for severely weakening threats such as Zapdos and volc (which often just dies if it isn’t super bulky) for the rest of my team to have a much easier time. And how does kart match up versus the premium offensive physical wall of our time, known for completely stopping almost every physical sweeper in the tier?
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 356-421 (109.5 - 129.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (sacred sword bypasses defense boost from dauntless shield)
Not bad kart, not bad. Since kart has many of the same answers as zama, it’s a perfect fit for the team, as it forcibly weakens zama’s answers so that zama has a much easier time cleaning up.
Now, for the one HO mon that actually matches up well vs zamazenta consistently, the mighty volc. Now, most volc aren’t super consistent at beating zama, but with webs up and the given defense investment, it avoids a 2hko by adamant zamazenta close combat and is able to outspeed it and flamethrower it if it dare tries to howl up and beat you 1v1. Also, volc is a great screens mon in general, so I don’t go too far out of my way to put a zama check on this team, which is always nice when building offense.
Finally, I need a tran answer, as sending volc in prematurely vs zama allows a very free heatran, so an answer to that was basically mandatory. I spent a while experimenting with yawn stealth rock flip turn eq pert, and while effective, it didn’t fit with the team very well, and it sometimes let the Pokémon that kart weakened get healthy again. So, I tried garchomp out. As soon as I started testing chomp on this team, I realized how much of a monster sub sd chomp was on webs. Webs means that you don’t have to run scale shot for the speed boost, and you can settle for edgequake coverage to hit the entire tier neutrally. Sub with screens allows you to beat some of chomp’s premiere answers, namely the slowtwins and defensive lando. Another niche for sub chomp: its sub can take a knock off from ferro even without screens, turning spikestack ferro into setup fodder.
Also if you’re wondering why the fuck my ribombee is skill swap over u-turn, it’s so you can steal flash fire from heatran to become immune to magma storm, then set webs and come back later if they’re defogged or spun away (unfortunately this team doesn’t have a spinblocker, but that’s ok since rapid spin isn’t that common in the OU meta anyway).
Anyway I hope you liked this post, feel free to steal this team and/or criticize it (and maybe take some inspiration from zeefable, they built a very cool HO team).
Yeah I greatly appreciate your insights and experience! In response to what I have bolded in your reply, If you decide to do that, you could even supplement those with a couple of replays per team against high-level teams and players of various styles. You could probably even also record them on your youtube channel too. I haven't checked your latest content yet, but I recently subscribed to your channel after seeing the video you posted earlier in this thread. I think it would be very informative because it seems of late that there is a lot of polarizing views on Zamazenta's impact on the meta.
If you post HO teams that do well against both bulk and other HO teams, then you would definitely sway opinions for sure. Because the concern is that even if you make a viable HO team in this Zama meta, then somehow it will be very weak against bulkier teams, and these bulkier teams also benefit if Zama really does invalidate HO since HO is a fun and powerful option to use against fat teams.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...10-voter-identification-thread.3681791/page-8
I don't have much experience to back this gut feeling, but I also noticed how many people on even just page 8 can easily get reqs as long as you play well during your first 30-60 games. And you if you only lose a few times, you only really need ~15 games won in a row to get in the 1300s. But the 1000s to 1300s your mostly playing against subpar teams and inexperienced players and/or players who play for fun, so you aren't getting much exp against good teams/good players and getting a good sense of the most optimal strategies and counterplay people are using against Zamazenta C until around the 1400-1700s, and by the 1600s most players complete their reqs and have no incentive to continue playing that much, and are free to continue to hold whatever opinion they might of formed off that sample size.
So my gut is telling me , if you feel the current system makes people too shortsighted and doesn't net enough experience for them to see the big picture and adapt to mons like Zama who have a lot of people on the border of whether they want it gone or not, then the only options are to require more games played or change the structure such that there is stronger competitive incentive. If you make it like a tournament kind of thing separate from the regular OU ladder then it maybe it forces more people to play with stronger incentives? As it is right now, the current Suspect ladder is a bit of a free fall, since not everyone playing on the ladder is invested in the suspect test is the thing.
As it is right now, you probably have 15-30 of your games not really be that informative on the dynamics of the metagame, and that's essentially half of your playing experience. So definitely more experience against the best kinds of adaptations would help.
I noticed this, because a user that you replied to was saying how adamant Zama was the most common, but you retorted with Zama running Jolly being the most common. And you BOTH might be right depending on the context. Maybe low to average ladder players have been using adamant a lot and maybe higher ladder players are using jolly more. I don't know which is better, but you are definitely engaging a tradeoff. Adamant makes Zama better against fat but weaker against HO naturally, so whatever variant you choose becomes a matchup-dependent mon that will need appropriate team support.
It just feels like people have vastly different experiences and I'm still on the fence. I have been building some teams lately and will be working on trying to get reqs myself, and hopefully, by then I will gain enough experience too, that when combined with more experiences from users here that if I get to vote I will be satisfied in my judgment and not feel I was misinformed.
I had stated that it can KO back in a general sense and did not mention OHKO. Look at that cannot OHKO list, Zamazenta outspeeds all of them except Dragapult, Zera, Koko and deals 80%+_ damage to almost everything. Aegislash, Victini, Volcarona are the only ones who can eat hits and these 3 have risen up solely to deal with Zama. Then take into account that most of these mons can do minimal damage back to Zama, losing 1v1 match ups. A more accurate representation is this:
Outspeed and Outright OHKO: Kartana, Hydreigon, Kyurem, Excadrill, Tapu Lele, and Tyranitar
Outspeed and OHKO after minor chip: Tornadus-Therian, Rillaboom, Nidoking, Dragonite (needs more chip but Dnite cannot do much back), Hawlucha (pre-seed), Garchomp (Ice Fang variants)
OHKO after minor chip: Zeraora, Dragapult, Tapu Koko
Outspeed and Wins 1v1: Garchomp (Non Ice Fang Variants), Offensive Lando (50% chance with SR, 100% chance with 20% chip)
^That does seem like 95% to me.
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Hippowdon: 174-205 (41.4 - 48.8%) -- 14.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
8 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. +2 4 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 116-140 (35.5 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Hippowdon: 208-246 (49.5 - 58.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
That's phy def Hippo mate. So if Zamazenta howls on the switch, it can BB to put Hippo in CC's KO range while taking 40% back (52% if helmet hippo). So essentially, you'd lose hippo and still have a +1 Zama at 40% in front of you.
+1 252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 172-204 (56.5 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 116-138 (38.1 - 45.3%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Okay you haze first and take 60%, still be in KO range of an unboosted wild charge. You switch or you let pex die without doing anything.
As for Slowbro, it is a bit better as it can force recoil then teleport to something faster, but that measure is not consistent enough over the course of an entire match.
Since when is setting up an SD on the switch considered a 1v1 scenario?
So Garchomp either gets outsped and OHKOed if it's at 80% or less health (btw Ada Ice Fang does 90 to 107), or gets 2HKOed while dealing 60 in return.
So yeah, Zamazenta does invalidate HO. HO can still hold its own but only through adopting a very limited and rigid structure. I'll admit this, I shouldn't have said most BO builds gets shut down. BO can handle Zama better but still faces a lot of pressure.
I have used offense on the ladder and haven't had much problems with Zama myself. BUT I am aware of just how many options I had to forfeit, how much I have to tip-toe against Zama in a match, and how restrictive Zama had made the building process to realize that Zamazenta being an Uber is a no-brainer.
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That's... not how unbans and Ubers works. Just because a Pokemon is outclassed in Ubers doesn't mean it drops down to OU- while it is a metagame, it's a different type of metagame as it is a banlist secondarily.
Look, I don't have the time to argue against everything you've said here, but the Garchomp thing is just not correct. If Garchomp SDs on the Zama C switch in, it will die 43.8% of the time. Because yes. Adamant is far better. This is indisputable. Anyone using Jolly calculations is not understanding the Pokemon, as it doesnt lose out on much from running Adamant.
Y'all Hahaing my post, so screw it, I'ma do the full thing anywho.
using jolly calculations for zama c is really stupid because most people are running adamant
like cinderace
because like cinderace, it basically loses nothing for going adamant, unless weavile is your core target lol. There's also Torn T and Koko, but oops, unless Specs you very likely just beat them anyways. You can also lose out on Modest Pult, but that isn't extremely popular.
You basically try to put everyone, or almost everyone, who thinks Zama-C should remain banned in 3 categories, according to your post.
1. They just hate change
2. They haven't played enough
3. They haven't been convinced because a lot of the people arguing pro-ban are doing it ineffectively
These are all strawmans. Instead of tackling the points, you go back on each of these. While for some this may be true, I can easily say this for all of them. Hmm. You used Jolly calculations, yes? Perhaps you haven't played Zama enough. I used your Sample with Icetails and Torn-T, with Jolly Zama-C. After making it Adamant, it was extremely apparent to me the Pokemon is broken. Now I can go on at least two of these and argue your point is invalid. Maybe the posts for banning Zama-C were just not well-made enough for you to be convinced, so that's why, yeah?
We've banned Pokemon with similar abilities before, or less. Zama-C, with Adamant, can specialize itself very well with any team support into making a monster. It forces plays all the time, and the Pokemon that HO has brought up to deal with it are A. questionable, and B. overall nerf it. By saying that bla bla, you'd spam it all day, it kind of feels more like an appeal to authority than an actual point. Like, yeah, you're good at the game. Of course you can use it lol. Doesn't mean the teamstyle isn't hindered by Zama-C's existence, because it is in fact stunted. I've made a post about Victini and Aegislash before, and their shortcomings. Upon this, Zama-C has insane role compression. It's a setup sweeper, a Knock Off pivot and a mon that can trade for damage all in one, with a single set. I've used it and beaten Tangrowths, Lando-Ts, Zapdos', Toxapex. It's beaten Basically any counter imaginable in OU. Because with basically any good teammate? It's basically free.
Only because you’re
Having completed my reqs and in general spent some time playing in the Zama-C meta, I would like to present my thoughts on why this pokemon should remain banned.
Offense/Balance
In my experience, Zamazenta very often gets positive matchups. I was using a team with grassy terrain to allow Zama to set up on ground types, as well as future sight for additional breaking power. With this core, Zama easily has the bulk to set up on would-be counters such as Landorus-t (the most common check to Zama on Offense/Balance). Even pokemon like Zapdos can fall pretty easily in terrain, either just a straight 1v1 or with support via knock off/other chip damage. I have found that, if played properly (not throwing away its hp early, using its bulk to setup at opportune times), only cores of bulky ground + bulky water or perhaps zapdos + secondary check, can really claim to have a good matchup against zamazenta. I could definitely see the metagame converging on these same old cores time after time in future to hold zamazenta back.
IMO the reason people are refuting this is because they are either not supporting zama correctly (you can't just throw it on any team) or are using its bulk to trade 1 for 1 instead of picking a better time to bring it in.
Hyper Offense
I have found that most HO teams struggle with this mon. Sure, there have been claims that they can 'adapt' which is fine, but these adaptations don't cut it - you basically need a roost volcarona or else you have a poor matchup. This is because other checks have no recovery, and zama gets multiple opportunities to come in on offensive pokemon thanks to its good typing, speed and bulk. Of course, I have beaten zama teams with HO before and sometimes it's not even hard, but for me, that is because the opponent's team didn't have the tools for my other HO mons. You absolutely need to trade at least a mon, sometimes 2-3, just to kill zama, and any good balanced team should be able to capitalise on that. In high level play, I don't see HO being used very often at all if zama is freed. Regarding HO team composition, you basically need to use specs dragapult on every offensive team to check it (a trend which is already being seen on the ladder). There have been claims that zama can't 0hko a lot of mons on HO teams, but it certainly comes close. The necessary chip can easily be achieved through stealth rock, life orb recoil and rocky helmet damage. Even if it doesn't, most mons don't 0hko it back, so you can always trade and then chip another mon (it outspeeds most of the metagame!).
tl;dr Zamazenta warps the metagame around it, I predict it to descend into bulk vs bulk 100+ turn games with the occasional roost volc + specs dragapult HO team thrown in. Ban.
Offense/Balance
In my experience, Zamazenta very often gets positive matchups. I was using a team with grassy terrain to allow Zama to set up on ground types, as well as future sight for additional breaking power. With this core, Zama easily has the bulk to set up on would-be counters such as Landorus-t (the most common check to Zama on Offense/Balance). Even pokemon like Zapdos can fall pretty easily in terrain, either just a straight 1v1 or with support via knock off/other chip damage. I have found that, if played properly (not throwing away its hp early, using its bulk to setup at opportune times), only cores of bulky ground + bulky water or perhaps zapdos + secondary check, can really claim to have a good matchup against zamazenta. I could definitely see the metagame converging on these same old cores time after time in future to hold zamazenta back.
IMO the reason people are refuting this is because they are either not supporting zama correctly (you can't just throw it on any team) or are using its bulk to trade 1 for 1 instead of picking a better time to bring it in.
Hyper Offense
I have found that most HO teams struggle with this mon. Sure, there have been claims that they can 'adapt' which is fine, but these adaptations don't cut it - you basically need a roost volcarona or else you have a poor matchup. This is because other checks have no recovery, and zama gets multiple opportunities to come in on offensive pokemon thanks to its good typing, speed and bulk. Of course, I have beaten zama teams with HO before and sometimes it's not even hard, but for me, that is because the opponent's team didn't have the tools for my other HO mons. You absolutely need to trade at least a mon, sometimes 2-3, just to kill zama, and any good balanced team should be able to capitalise on that. In high level play, I don't see HO being used very often at all if zama is freed. Regarding HO team composition, you basically need to use specs dragapult on every offensive team to check it (a trend which is already being seen on the ladder). There have been claims that zama can't 0hko a lot of mons on HO teams, but it certainly comes close. The necessary chip can easily be achieved through stealth rock, life orb recoil and rocky helmet damage. Even if it doesn't, most mons don't 0hko it back, so you can always trade and then chip another mon (it outspeeds most of the metagame!).
tl;dr Zamazenta warps the metagame around it, I predict it to descend into bulk vs bulk 100+ turn games with the occasional roost volc + specs dragapult HO team thrown in. Ban.
Hey all, I'm going to be making one more post just to clear up some of the misconceptions that have been conveyed in my post. I recognize I didn't word myself the best, so I will try to address the counterarguments that have been made.
Likewise, I mention Sand because it is a weather archetype, which is what I dedicated a paragraph to addressing. While Sand balance tends to be the quintessential embodiment of Sand, I felt it was worth mentioning because it is a weather-based archetype and would be dismissive of me to not mention, as generally Sand teams use its weather as a win condition, similarly to Rain or Sun. To downplay the sentiment of my post because I mentioned different archetypes is bold, especially as BO and Sand teams are still forms of offense and the former of which is considered to be one of the strongest archetypes in the tier currently.
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 123-145 (38.3 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 102-121 (31.7 - 37.6%) -- 92.4% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 124-146 (38.6 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(Offensive Zapdos runs HDB standardly, so I'm not exactly sure why you say the contrary.)
Not only are these moves not doing a ton, even with Adamant, without a Howl boost, but Zapdos fishing for Static against Zamazenta as it tries to break past it is not a tall order whatsoever given its access to Roost, especially if Zamazenta lacks Ice Fang. Once Zamazenta-C is paralyzed, it becomes dead weight--even with Ice Fang, Zapdos has several opportunities to cripple Zamazenta-C since while keeping healthy it has the chance to incapacitate it simultaneously. With Ice Fang, though, Zamazenta-C will lose to Pelipper unless it runs BoltBeam + CC, which can force it to take key damage through Wild Charge chip damage, or force a gamble with Zapdos and only increasing Static opportunities. Regardless of all of this, like I said, if you are put into a position where Zamazenta-C is able to break past Rain, that is your own fault, as Rain is centered around wearing down checks and putting either a win condition (usually a Swift Swim abuser or Nasty Plot Tornadus-T/Thundurus-T) into a position where it can clean. This is, fundamentally, how inherently hyper offensive weather teams work.
Webs, similarly, face issues for reasons that Zamazenta-C is not solely responsible for, but I mention it because the speed drop does allow for Zamazenta to be much more readily overwhelmed, even if it has a better matchup toward Webs in comparison to other offensive Pokemon. Zamazenta-C might be able to knock down one breaker or two, but its lack of longevity lets it be overwhelmed incredibly easily, and it doesn't need too much chip either given that a majority of Webs abusers run coverage or STABs that can naturally threaten Zamazenta-C. There are also options like Garchomp (which is a solid check even against Ice Fang variants) and Aegislash, which I've already discussed.
If you believe that it "obviously completely shuts down" these builds, explain how. Either do that, and/or show replays that demonstrate it cleaving past these teams without being overwhelmed or picking off key threats without breaking a sweat, or else you're making meaningless, extraneous claims that don't add any productive value to the discussion. Although you later rescind your claim of it shutting down BO, this still applies to your original claim of how it affects HO.
Some people claim that Zamazenta-C is broken because it "lives a super effective attack from a super powerful wallbreaker?!" but a lot of these claims do not bear in mind the other variables that put major schisms in Zamazenta-C's bulk, as well as the turn-to-turn circumstances by which it stays healthy, or if it even stays healthy at all. It is not practical to assume that just because a Pokemon lives a certain super effective attack at max HP, it is by virtue broken. These interactions are not black and white, and your claims seem to suggest as such.
About your latter two examples, you do not Scald in front of a boosted Zamazenta-C. With your latter two examples, the interaction is heavily based in pivoting (as opposed to praying and hoping you can win the 1v1) and positioning a check that is more readily capable of forcing it out. Toxapex uses Haze on the Howl, and if Zamazenta-C chooses not to Howl, Toxapex heals and then fishes for Scald until the Howl boost is intact. Hell, even if there is no pivoting involved (which there, commonly, is not), both of these Pokemon can easily punish Zamazenta-C with Rocky Helmet recoil and/or pressure it until it can help to position a Pokemon that can pick it off.
Although I appreciate your response to my post, I personally feel like you mostly are operating under the assumption that Zamazenta-C will always be enabled 24/7, will always be at max HP, has no status, and that the opponent is only brute forcing Zamazenta-C when none of this is realistic whatsoever, and does not bear in mind the unique interactions that Zamazenta-C has with a majority of its offensive and defensive checks. When it comes to looking at Pokemon like Zamazenta-C, we need to evaluate every variable in a game and look at how they all add up together to overall evaluate the Pokemon's matchups and determine whether we determine these effects to be too constraining or powerful. I have no qualms with anybody who feels the contrary--in fact, I encourage it--but arguments claiming as such need to consider these variables that manifest constantly in battle instead of assuming the best possible circumstances.
I feel as though what's ideal in the state of HO as a playstyle is that it has options, but also has the ability to be displaced without forcing it to lose on the spot. These conditions are things that people feel Zamazenta-C actively constricts due to its potent revenge killing abilities and it limiting its counterplay, but as I explained in my previous posts, I feel as though the many indirect variables that hold Zamazenta-C's bulk and offensive capabilities back make Zamazenta-C counterplay much more feasible than what is suggested otherwise by virtue of its raw attributes. Its typing isn't ideal defensively, its reliance on Howl and specific coverage options for wallbreaking (including Close Combat's defense drops) and cleaning make revenge killing it nowhere near as tall of an order as it looks, and most of all, chipping it down and ultimately overwhelming it is just not at all difficult to do.
I completely and wholly understand the position of pro-ban, but I personally feel as though it's imperative to look at how it fares in execution as opposed to solely looking at what it could do. Of course, I'm not saying this is what pro-ban is doing, but this perspective is mostly how I've been looking at Zamazenta-C, and is one that ultimately makes me feel as though despite what it seems at a glance, all of its shortcomings really add up in a vacuum, and the ways it can be enabled require good positioning and for prior conditions to be fulfilled, which is the case with any strong Pokemon in my eyes.
If any of you have any further questions on my stance regarding Zamazenta-C, feel free to PM me, and I will be more than happy to respond!
This is a complete misinterpretation of the illustration I was trying to build with my examples. Bear in mind that this was under the "Other Matchups" section, which was geared toward deconstructing Zamazenta-C's matchup against other kinds of offenses. I apologize that the structure of my post didn't make this sentiment the most clear, but to call my post misguided when I try to explore the nature of offense in general makes me feel as though you didn't really comprehend the fundamental point I was trying to make about it, being that different archetypes of offenses have counterplay, including HO archetypes which I do address in bulk.
Likewise, I mention Sand because it is a weather archetype, which is what I dedicated a paragraph to addressing. While Sand balance tends to be the quintessential embodiment of Sand, I felt it was worth mentioning because it is a weather-based archetype and would be dismissive of me to not mention, as generally Sand teams use its weather as a win condition, similarly to Rain or Sun. To downplay the sentiment of my post because I mentioned different archetypes is bold, especially as BO and Sand teams are still forms of offense and the former of which is considered to be one of the strongest archetypes in the tier currently.
For the sake of this argument, let's say that you lose momentum in Rain and need to check Zamazenta-C.
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 123-145 (38.3 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 102-121 (31.7 - 37.6%) -- 92.4% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 124-146 (38.6 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(Offensive Zapdos runs HDB standardly, so I'm not exactly sure why you say the contrary.)
Not only are these moves not doing a ton, even with Adamant, without a Howl boost, but Zapdos fishing for Static against Zamazenta as it tries to break past it is not a tall order whatsoever given its access to Roost, especially if Zamazenta lacks Ice Fang. Once Zamazenta-C is paralyzed, it becomes dead weight--even with Ice Fang, Zapdos has several opportunities to cripple Zamazenta-C since while keeping healthy it has the chance to incapacitate it simultaneously. With Ice Fang, though, Zamazenta-C will lose to Pelipper unless it runs BoltBeam + CC, which can force it to take key damage through Wild Charge chip damage, or force a gamble with Zapdos and only increasing Static opportunities. Regardless of all of this, like I said, if you are put into a position where Zamazenta-C is able to break past Rain, that is your own fault, as Rain is centered around wearing down checks and putting either a win condition (usually a Swift Swim abuser or Nasty Plot Tornadus-T/Thundurus-T) into a position where it can clean. This is, fundamentally, how inherently hyper offensive weather teams work.
The sentence I bolded demonstrates that you agree Sun is not an archetype that really should be considered, which I feel is agreeable, given that Sun faces a wealth of issues right now that Zamazenta-C isn't really responsible for, which you ultimately seem to show an agreement toward too. I only mentioned Sun because, again, I wanted to address weather archetypes as a whole. My analysis regarding Sun wasn't the most sound, but given that we agree on its irrelevance for other reasons, it's not worth further discussing.
Webs, similarly, face issues for reasons that Zamazenta-C is not solely responsible for, but I mention it because the speed drop does allow for Zamazenta to be much more readily overwhelmed, even if it has a better matchup toward Webs in comparison to other offensive Pokemon. Zamazenta-C might be able to knock down one breaker or two, but its lack of longevity lets it be overwhelmed incredibly easily, and it doesn't need too much chip either given that a majority of Webs abusers run coverage or STABs that can naturally threaten Zamazenta-C. There are also options like Garchomp (which is a solid check even against Ice Fang variants) and Aegislash, which I've already discussed.
This is just outright wrong. How is it obvious that it shuts down every other HO build and BO build when there have been a plethora of posts that have explained and even demonstrated how Zamazenta-C works against these teams, and how the counterplay naturally manifests? It is genuinely not that hard to pick from a list of quite literally over a dozen Pokemon that can perform as both offensive and defensive checks (that have already been metagame staples and have many other positive attributes), and even then there are natural means of counterplay that can overwhelm Zamazenta-C anyway by virtue of its weaknesses, proneness to chip damage, momentum, and complete inability to heal even remotely by itself. \
If you believe that it "obviously completely shuts down" these builds, explain how. Either do that, and/or show replays that demonstrate it cleaving past these teams without being overwhelmed or picking off key threats without breaking a sweat, or else you're making meaningless, extraneous claims that don't add any productive value to the discussion. Although you later rescind your claim of it shutting down BO, this still applies to your original claim of how it affects HO.
You don't seem to understand what an offensive check is; in fact, it's in the name. A check is not a counter. In this context, it is a Pokemon that has the ability to beat Zamazenta-C given the right circumstances. Dragapult eclipses Zamazenta-C's speed tier by a good margin, with access to two forms of debilitating status, and can easily revenge kill it after a Close Combat drop, not even needing Fire Blast in most circumstances since status is universal to pivot variants and can scare it out anyway by threatening it with key chip damage regardless. Because Zamazenta-C is forced out, Dragapult can very easily use Zamazenta-C as a progress forcing opportunity, either by gaining momentum, spreading status, or chipping down a switch-in. If you think a Specs Dragapult is going to stay in and click Shadow Ball just to get chip damage when Zamazenta-C is at max HP and put itself into a low HP threshold when it has other, more practical options, you are solely mistaken.
Some people claim that Zamazenta-C is broken because it "lives a super effective attack from a super powerful wallbreaker?!" but a lot of these claims do not bear in mind the other variables that put major schisms in Zamazenta-C's bulk, as well as the turn-to-turn circumstances by which it stays healthy, or if it even stays healthy at all. It is not practical to assume that just because a Pokemon lives a certain super effective attack at max HP, it is by virtue broken. These interactions are not black and white, and your claims seem to suggest as such.
Again, this is an extreme claim that does not apply accurately whatsoever. You can look at my Balance Offense team, which barely had any form of dedicated counterplay, and Zamazenta-C was not even remotely an issue for me. Balance Offenses, for example, have a shitload of options to beat Zamazenta-C and there are a load of highly varied, publicly shared teams (including numerous hyper offenses) that have been used to get requisites that do not employ any of these three Pokemon.
As Finch said, Howl Adamant is not the most common set. In fact, Jolly is a very legitimate option that's used to eclipse three major threats: itself, Low Kick Weavile, and Tornadus-T. In spite of this, I do agree Adamant has some merit and can be utilized to overwhelm some extra Pokemon it otherwise cannot. However, this also has to bear in mind the turn it uses Howl, and/or key chip damage it has to sustain to chip or KO these Pokemon.
About your latter two examples, you do not Scald in front of a boosted Zamazenta-C. With your latter two examples, the interaction is heavily based in pivoting (as opposed to praying and hoping you can win the 1v1) and positioning a check that is more readily capable of forcing it out. Toxapex uses Haze on the Howl, and if Zamazenta-C chooses not to Howl, Toxapex heals and then fishes for Scald until the Howl boost is intact. Hell, even if there is no pivoting involved (which there, commonly, is not), both of these Pokemon can easily punish Zamazenta-C with Rocky Helmet recoil and/or pressure it until it can help to position a Pokemon that can pick it off.
Although I appreciate your response to my post, I personally feel like you mostly are operating under the assumption that Zamazenta-C will always be enabled 24/7, will always be at max HP, has no status, and that the opponent is only brute forcing Zamazenta-C when none of this is realistic whatsoever, and does not bear in mind the unique interactions that Zamazenta-C has with a majority of its offensive and defensive checks. When it comes to looking at Pokemon like Zamazenta-C, we need to evaluate every variable in a game and look at how they all add up together to overall evaluate the Pokemon's matchups and determine whether we determine these effects to be too constraining or powerful. I have no qualms with anybody who feels the contrary--in fact, I encourage it--but arguments claiming as such need to consider these variables that manifest constantly in battle instead of assuming the best possible circumstances.
To end this post off, I would be more than happy to give an answer to this question.
I feel as though what's ideal in the state of HO as a playstyle is that it has options, but also has the ability to be displaced without forcing it to lose on the spot. These conditions are things that people feel Zamazenta-C actively constricts due to its potent revenge killing abilities and it limiting its counterplay, but as I explained in my previous posts, I feel as though the many indirect variables that hold Zamazenta-C's bulk and offensive capabilities back make Zamazenta-C counterplay much more feasible than what is suggested otherwise by virtue of its raw attributes. Its typing isn't ideal defensively, its reliance on Howl and specific coverage options for wallbreaking (including Close Combat's defense drops) and cleaning make revenge killing it nowhere near as tall of an order as it looks, and most of all, chipping it down and ultimately overwhelming it is just not at all difficult to do.
I completely and wholly understand the position of pro-ban, but I personally feel as though it's imperative to look at how it fares in execution as opposed to solely looking at what it could do. Of course, I'm not saying this is what pro-ban is doing, but this perspective is mostly how I've been looking at Zamazenta-C, and is one that ultimately makes me feel as though despite what it seems at a glance, all of its shortcomings really add up in a vacuum, and the ways it can be enabled require good positioning and for prior conditions to be fulfilled, which is the case with any strong Pokemon in my eyes.
If any of you have any further questions on my stance regarding Zamazenta-C, feel free to PM me, and I will be more than happy to respond!
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Its because these teams are boring to fight against. BO and Balance aren't too bad to deal with, but the Standard Pex / Corv / Hippo / Blissey / Whatever stall team on the ladder can take hundreds of turns to break through and can result in really boring gameplay loops where little to no progress is made outside of possible PP stalling. That being said, even in a pre-Zamazenta metagame, I thought these teams were really difficult to fight and arguably the most consistent style, but this may just be my bias since I'm really bad at fighting these sort of teams.
I typically like to refrain from making posts about balancing on this site due to how often certain users like to misconstrue and nitpick each other's arguments rather than offer good refutations. However, I wanted to offer my POV on why arguments on the pro-unban zama side have been a bit misguided. I was previously on the pro-unban side when I first used this pokemon for the sole reason that I think kyurem is stupid. I welcomed this pokemon as a fast check that deterred kyurem enough to see it severely drop in usage (1850+) in my games. However, as I played more and more games my opinion swiftly changed and I am now vehemently pro-ban.
In regards to
's "counterplay", there are a few options within the tier.
- Rocky helmet
- Static
- Flame body
-Rocky helmet / leftovers
- Rocky helmet
- Rocky helmet
I elected not to name
or 
bc of how often the two are overwhelmed due to lack of consistent recovery. The problem I have with the aforementioned "counter play" is that, bar hippowdon, RNG is often the biggest factor when it comes to actually neutralizing zama. Relying on a 30% burn chance after you haze with pex is not consistent enough counterplay in the slightest. After a howl, zapdos, volcarona, slowbro, etc have 1 chance of 30% (51% if you run discharge zapdos or if you scald with bro instead of teleporting) to "beat zama". This is not a healthy way of dealing with a mon that, with proper team support (wish, aromatherapy, future sight, knock off, etc), can clean the majority of teams in gen 8 ou. We're all aware of how easy it is to overwhelm and cripple defensive checks with knock off this gen. To say that pivoting with rocky helmet is a viable and consistent form of counterplay is absolutely absurd. Forcing corv, pex, slowbro to run helmet rn is hindering their ability to function as pivots for other mons as well. Corv gets trapped instantly by zone unless you're running speed investment, slowbro gets overwhelmed easier, giving your opponent's sd garchomp more window of oppurtunity, etc. Historically, when listing counterplay to a pokemon as threatening as zamazenta-c, we look at how consistently and reliably a defensive (or offensive) answer can deal with the said threat. Many people and I on the pro-ban side just do not see that currently within gen 8 ou. The game shouldn't be balanced around RNG. Not only is this extremely frustrating to play against when you don't get that 30 or 51% chance, but it is inherently uncompetitive to rely on luck in order to temporarily neutralize a threat.
I have also yet to see a good reason from the pro-unban side that showcases how zamazenta-c has positively impacted the tier. An unhealthy pokemon checking other potentially unhealthy pokemon has historically been discouraged in the 8 years that I've been playing OU. I don't see why that precedent is changing now in 2021. If zamazenta-c had consistent enough counterplay where a counter's viability wasn't dependent on an item as easily knocked as rocky helmet. Or if half of it's "counterplay" didn't rely on a 30% chance to neutralize it temporarily, than I would vote unban in good faith. Genuinely I would. But unfortunately that isn't the case. Zamazenta-c enables more rng than I have seen in a very long time. I genuinely believe that allowing this pokemon to drop would be one of the worst mistakes that we have made as a community in a very long time. I have refrained from over-exaggerating in this post so far (imo), but I do think that this would ruin an already "not so good" gen 8 ou. I got my reqs recently using zamazenta and after playing many games and having many discussions on the topic, I cannot wait to vote ban this Sunday.
Closing thoughts: I really feel like it's important to state that there's lots of nuance between the terms "broken" and "unhealthy". For example gen 6 Aegislash/sabeleye were both arguably unhealthy for the tier. While, in my humble opinion, genesect was a bit broken in gen 8. Before people take this out of context, I'm only using this allusion to describe the subtle differences between the meaning. I think zama is unhealthy not "broken". Hampering on about the differences of these two terms is important, but we shouldn't let that misguide us or disclaim another person's argument too much-unless necessary ofc. I'm always welcome to further this discussion on here or PS, where you can pm me or ping me (mcp3) in chat.
In regards to
's "counterplay", there are a few options within the tier. - Rocky helmet - Static - Flame body -Rocky helmet / leftovers - Rocky helmet - Rocky helmetI elected not to name
or bc of how often the two are overwhelmed due to lack of consistent recovery. The problem I have with the aforementioned "counter play" is that, bar hippowdon, RNG is often the biggest factor when it comes to actually neutralizing zama. Relying on a 30% burn chance after you haze with pex is not consistent enough counterplay in the slightest. After a howl, zapdos, volcarona, slowbro, etc have 1 chance of 30% (51% if you run discharge zapdos or if you scald with bro instead of teleporting) to "beat zama". This is not a healthy way of dealing with a mon that, with proper team support (wish, aromatherapy, future sight, knock off, etc), can clean the majority of teams in gen 8 ou. We're all aware of how easy it is to overwhelm and cripple defensive checks with knock off this gen. To say that pivoting with rocky helmet is a viable and consistent form of counterplay is absolutely absurd. Forcing corv, pex, slowbro to run helmet rn is hindering their ability to function as pivots for other mons as well. Corv gets trapped instantly by zone unless you're running speed investment, slowbro gets overwhelmed easier, giving your opponent's sd garchomp more window of oppurtunity, etc. Historically, when listing counterplay to a pokemon as threatening as zamazenta-c, we look at how consistently and reliably a defensive (or offensive) answer can deal with the said threat. Many people and I on the pro-ban side just do not see that currently within gen 8 ou. The game shouldn't be balanced around RNG. Not only is this extremely frustrating to play against when you don't get that 30 or 51% chance, but it is inherently uncompetitive to rely on luck in order to temporarily neutralize a threat.I have also yet to see a good reason from the pro-unban side that showcases how zamazenta-c has positively impacted the tier. An unhealthy pokemon checking other potentially unhealthy pokemon has historically been discouraged in the 8 years that I've been playing OU. I don't see why that precedent is changing now in 2021. If zamazenta-c had consistent enough counterplay where a counter's viability wasn't dependent on an item as easily knocked as rocky helmet. Or if half of it's "counterplay" didn't rely on a 30% chance to neutralize it temporarily, than I would vote unban in good faith. Genuinely I would. But unfortunately that isn't the case. Zamazenta-c enables more rng than I have seen in a very long time. I genuinely believe that allowing this pokemon to drop would be one of the worst mistakes that we have made as a community in a very long time. I have refrained from over-exaggerating in this post so far (imo), but I do think that this would ruin an already "not so good" gen 8 ou. I got my reqs recently using zamazenta and after playing many games and having many discussions on the topic, I cannot wait to vote ban this Sunday.
Closing thoughts: I really feel like it's important to state that there's lots of nuance between the terms "broken" and "unhealthy". For example gen 6 Aegislash/sabeleye were both arguably unhealthy for the tier. While, in my humble opinion, genesect was a bit broken in gen 8. Before people take this out of context, I'm only using this allusion to describe the subtle differences between the meaning. I think zama is unhealthy not "broken". Hampering on about the differences of these two terms is important, but we shouldn't let that misguide us or disclaim another person's argument too much-unless necessary ofc. I'm always welcome to further this discussion on here or PS, where you can pm me or ping me (mcp3) in chat.
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gonna be honest i at first wanted zama unbanned because i thought it'd be funny to see a 720 bst pkmn running around in OU. after testing this thing out and playing a meta with it i now realize it really isn't that funny in retrospect. shits probably too much for OU and in the lamest way possible. it gets chipped reaaaaal easy, but there's a few aspects about it that make me think it shouldn't be unbanned (in my own opinion)
It's concerningly easy to be able to setup a Howl with Zama and go nuts against a team that's not prepared for it. Even with 130 attack and at only +1, its STABs are absolutely nothing to sneeze at power wise and anything that switches in is still not going to like what it throws out. Honestly, why aren't more people talking about how this thing takes a dump on almost every offensive mon in the tier after it's able to boost? There's a reason people say it invalidates HO and both facing opposing screen teams and being on one if it takes a hit and the opponent survives it can just shrug it off with minimal damage and kill the next turn. Yeah, this thing has 4MSS, but it *just* so happens to get boltbeam in terms of coverage and the fact that you have to guess what fourth move it's running forces you to run something that can come even close to checking it or else you run the risk of the shield dog getting some Howls and bashing through your team like a hot...shield through butter.
Checking this thing is hard for an offensive mon. It gets no recovery, which is true and does keep it from being truly broken. But that bulk is still really really fucking good, which still gives it longevity against dealing with HO. The combination of that and its speed makes it a nightmare to revenge kill without Zeraora or Dragapult hitting it with a super effective move (which, by the way, never OHKOs for either) and even then Zeraora dies from even an unboosted CC because of the defense drop from using its own CC and Dragapult dies to a BB after some chip, and even sooner if god forbid it's an Adamant Zamazenta. I'm very well aware Volc, Victini, and offensive Zapdos are able to check it successfully, but even still your other pivots are going to take serious damage if they switch into an attack they can't stomach from it. And not even mentioning the fact that if you want your HO team to have even a chance against Zama you have to run one of these mons, with Volc being forced to run Roost as well so that it isn't 2HKOd by a resisted CC, mind you [edit: just remembered victini gets no recovery so it isn't even a great check. lol]
An argument against banning Zama is that it needs more than average support to be able to pull its weight. That's certainly true, I'm not even going to pretend that support dedicated just to keeping it alive is vital for its success in battle. But what about when it *does* get that support? Wishport Clefable gives it immediate major recovery and gives it an even safer switch-in god forbid, Grassy Terrain acts like a pseudo-leftovers which deals with its recovery problem, and I don't even need to say Future Sight is great help because that move's just bullshit in general honestly. It's able to get its support and the forms of support that it gets are already great on other teams without it. Forgive me if this part sounds ignorant since I'm still not quite the most experienced with teambuilding.
I've already noticed changes in the metagame and it's that pretty much every defensive mon is running Rocky Helmet to try and deal with the shield dog. Genuine question: Is this healthy? Should defensive Pokemon be forced to run Helmet to punish the dog since there's a good chance they get overwhelmed by whatever coverage + power this thing has? I don't know, honestly, but I'd rather not have to run a specific set to try and punish a +2 Wild Charge against my Pex when it's not even that great of a set for Pex outside of the context of checking Zama.
I don't know. I'm still kind of new to competitive and everything I've said has been said already but better, but I still wanted to give my input since I've had the time to try a meta with Zama. There's no way in hell I'll ever get reqs, so just have my opinion here for display. I have more thoughts about this thing but I'm not great at putting them into words, so maybe don't take everything I say at face value. There's points in favor of unbanning I agree with, being that the tier needs a Knock Off absorber, but I'd rather there be one that isn't yknow like this
It's concerningly easy to be able to setup a Howl with Zama and go nuts against a team that's not prepared for it. Even with 130 attack and at only +1, its STABs are absolutely nothing to sneeze at power wise and anything that switches in is still not going to like what it throws out. Honestly, why aren't more people talking about how this thing takes a dump on almost every offensive mon in the tier after it's able to boost? There's a reason people say it invalidates HO and both facing opposing screen teams and being on one if it takes a hit and the opponent survives it can just shrug it off with minimal damage and kill the next turn. Yeah, this thing has 4MSS, but it *just* so happens to get boltbeam in terms of coverage and the fact that you have to guess what fourth move it's running forces you to run something that can come even close to checking it or else you run the risk of the shield dog getting some Howls and bashing through your team like a hot...shield through butter.
Checking this thing is hard for an offensive mon. It gets no recovery, which is true and does keep it from being truly broken. But that bulk is still really really fucking good, which still gives it longevity against dealing with HO. The combination of that and its speed makes it a nightmare to revenge kill without Zeraora or Dragapult hitting it with a super effective move (which, by the way, never OHKOs for either) and even then Zeraora dies from even an unboosted CC because of the defense drop from using its own CC and Dragapult dies to a BB after some chip, and even sooner if god forbid it's an Adamant Zamazenta. I'm very well aware Volc, Victini, and offensive Zapdos are able to check it successfully, but even still your other pivots are going to take serious damage if they switch into an attack they can't stomach from it. And not even mentioning the fact that if you want your HO team to have even a chance against Zama you have to run one of these mons, with Volc being forced to run Roost as well so that it isn't 2HKOd by a resisted CC, mind you [edit: just remembered victini gets no recovery so it isn't even a great check. lol]
An argument against banning Zama is that it needs more than average support to be able to pull its weight. That's certainly true, I'm not even going to pretend that support dedicated just to keeping it alive is vital for its success in battle. But what about when it *does* get that support? Wishport Clefable gives it immediate major recovery and gives it an even safer switch-in god forbid, Grassy Terrain acts like a pseudo-leftovers which deals with its recovery problem, and I don't even need to say Future Sight is great help because that move's just bullshit in general honestly. It's able to get its support and the forms of support that it gets are already great on other teams without it. Forgive me if this part sounds ignorant since I'm still not quite the most experienced with teambuilding.
I've already noticed changes in the metagame and it's that pretty much every defensive mon is running Rocky Helmet to try and deal with the shield dog. Genuine question: Is this healthy? Should defensive Pokemon be forced to run Helmet to punish the dog since there's a good chance they get overwhelmed by whatever coverage + power this thing has? I don't know, honestly, but I'd rather not have to run a specific set to try and punish a +2 Wild Charge against my Pex when it's not even that great of a set for Pex outside of the context of checking Zama.
I don't know. I'm still kind of new to competitive and everything I've said has been said already but better, but I still wanted to give my input since I've had the time to try a meta with Zama. There's no way in hell I'll ever get reqs, so just have my opinion here for display. I have more thoughts about this thing but I'm not great at putting them into words, so maybe don't take everything I say at face value. There's points in favor of unbanning I agree with, being that the tier needs a Knock Off absorber, but I'd rather there be one that isn't yknow like this
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Playing through the suspect, I do not have much of an opinion on whether or not Zamazenta should be unbanned in OU. There have been a slew of great arguments from both the pro-ban and pro-unban sides, and I think either outcome would be fairly reasonable. Personally, I don't really consider Zamazenta to be too unhealthy for the tier; well-made balance and stall teams thrash Zamazenta pretty badly, while offense does have access to tools capable of beating Zamazenta (though these tools are admittedly limited).
For what it is worth, something that I have been enjoying a lot in this suspect is teambuilding. While traditional OU defensive cores can struggle against Howl + 3 Attacks Zamazenta, I found that quite a few mons currently deemed unviable in OU could function surprisingly well in a metagame featuring Zamazenta. Note that this is not similar to the way trash mons and sets were being used to combat against Spectrier when it was around (e.g. RestTalk Ttar), but is instead more comparable to how players started utilizing Slowking-Galar as an answer against Magearna and then realized that Slowking-Galar was fairly competent at doing much more than that. Though it is weird to say, it feels as if more mons have become potentially viable in a metagame with Zamazenta in it, and no ranked mons in the tier can be considered as unviable due to the inclusion of Zamazenta (I have seen a few players argue that Zamazenta spells death to the viability of dark types in the tier, but I do not think this is the case; both Weavile and Bisharp can chunk Zamazenta with Low Kick, while Crawdaunt can do so as well with Crabhammer. If anything, Zamazenta discourages mindless usage of Knock Off for easy progress, which I believe to be a net positive).
As an example, one mon in particular that I have been using with moderate success during the suspect is Sableye.
Sableye @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Knock Off
- Encore
- Recover
- Will-O-Wisp
This Sableye set will pretty much always come out on top against any Zamazenta set. Prankster Encore beats Zamazenta if it goes for Howl, while the only thing Zamazenta can hit Sableye hard with is Behemoth Bash (which has limited PP). Zamazenta is forced out due to fearing Will-O-Wisp, whereas Sableye can either Recover, burn the switch in, or cripple the switch in with Knock Off. The thing with Sableye is that it does more than just check Zamazenta; having priority Encore and Will-O-Wisp adds fantastic utility to the team and is great to have even against teams without Zamazenta.
My point to this post is that if Zamazenta were to be unbanned, I do think that a good amount of untiered mons (e.g. Jellicent, Gourgiest-Super, Vileplume) become a good deal more viable in the metagame while not really invalidating any current mons. Though I am overall indifferent to whether or not Zamazenta gets unbanned, if Zamazenta were to be unbanned, I would be looking forward to utilizing other mons that would have a decent surge in viability.
For what it is worth, something that I have been enjoying a lot in this suspect is teambuilding. While traditional OU defensive cores can struggle against Howl + 3 Attacks Zamazenta, I found that quite a few mons currently deemed unviable in OU could function surprisingly well in a metagame featuring Zamazenta. Note that this is not similar to the way trash mons and sets were being used to combat against Spectrier when it was around (e.g. RestTalk Ttar), but is instead more comparable to how players started utilizing Slowking-Galar as an answer against Magearna and then realized that Slowking-Galar was fairly competent at doing much more than that. Though it is weird to say, it feels as if more mons have become potentially viable in a metagame with Zamazenta in it, and no ranked mons in the tier can be considered as unviable due to the inclusion of Zamazenta (I have seen a few players argue that Zamazenta spells death to the viability of dark types in the tier, but I do not think this is the case; both Weavile and Bisharp can chunk Zamazenta with Low Kick, while Crawdaunt can do so as well with Crabhammer. If anything, Zamazenta discourages mindless usage of Knock Off for easy progress, which I believe to be a net positive).
As an example, one mon in particular that I have been using with moderate success during the suspect is Sableye.
Sableye @ Leftovers
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Impish Nature
- Knock Off
- Encore
- Recover
- Will-O-Wisp
252+ Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Behemoth Bash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 156-184 (51.3 - 60.5%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Sableye just Recovers on Zamazenta, and there is nothing Zamazenta can really do back, as Behemoth Bash only has 8 PP. Jolly Zamazenta obviously does even worse.
Sableye just Recovers on Zamazenta, and there is nothing Zamazenta can really do back, as Behemoth Bash only has 8 PP. Jolly Zamazenta obviously does even worse.
This Sableye set will pretty much always come out on top against any Zamazenta set. Prankster Encore beats Zamazenta if it goes for Howl, while the only thing Zamazenta can hit Sableye hard with is Behemoth Bash (which has limited PP). Zamazenta is forced out due to fearing Will-O-Wisp, whereas Sableye can either Recover, burn the switch in, or cripple the switch in with Knock Off. The thing with Sableye is that it does more than just check Zamazenta; having priority Encore and Will-O-Wisp adds fantastic utility to the team and is great to have even against teams without Zamazenta.
My point to this post is that if Zamazenta were to be unbanned, I do think that a good amount of untiered mons (e.g. Jellicent, Gourgiest-Super, Vileplume) become a good deal more viable in the metagame while not really invalidating any current mons. Though I am overall indifferent to whether or not Zamazenta gets unbanned, if Zamazenta were to be unbanned, I would be looking forward to utilizing other mons that would have a decent surge in viability.
Wait just one question here.
How do i tell a mod ive reached the 50 required battles to vote?
How do i tell a mod ive reached the 50 required battles to vote?
Oh yeah, no need to do that. Just post a screenshot in the voter identification thread, showing your GXE and the number of games you played.
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