Announcement np: SS OU Suspect Process, Round 10 - Royals

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Zamazenta is clearly too much for the tier. The ability to outspeed and come close to OHkoing the majority of mons in the OU tier outside of purely defensive mons makes this thing too good.

It's mammoth bulk adds to the conundrum of making it impossible to kill for any offensive team.

Will be voting ban.
 
Zamazenta is clearly too much for the tier. The ability to outspeed and come close to OHkoing the majority of mons in the OU tier outside of purely defensive mons makes this thing too good.

It's mammoth bulk adds to the conundrum of making it impossible to kill for any offensive team.

Will be voting ban.
It's really not as clear as people think, and as a person who thinks Zama should be unbanned I disagree with this.

Zama is strong with a base 130 attack stat yeah. However, it gets no boosting item and only has howl to boost it's attack stat. So while it can deal some good damage to offense, it does have ways for offense to beat it.

Many other posts point out the ways offense can adapt to Zama but I'm just gonna repeat them. Volcarona turns Zama into set up fodder. If Zama stays in and howls to try and kill it with Wild Charge, it also risks getting burned which makes Zama dead weight. Grassy/Electric seed Hawlucha always lives a wild charge from Zama, gets an SD, and proceeds to kill Zama in return. Zama is also pretty prone to taking chip throughout the game, so mons like Tapu Koko and Dragapult can outspeed and kill a weakened Zama. Landorus and Garchomp also handle Zama well, IF it's not running ice fang, and deal good damage in return to make sure another teammate could come in and revenge kill it. Specifically Landorus, who also can remove Zama's howl boost with Intimidate. This is a more niche pick BUT, banded Buzzwole is an offensive mon that just completely destroys Zama. Aegislash is another more niche pick that also deals with Zama, though it depends on the Aegislash variant.

As someone who used this team for a fair amount of games to try and get reqs, I never struggled with Zama. This struggle that people have with Offense vs. Zama is more of an on paper thing than in practice. At least in my eyes
 
There are plenty of mons in OU who could check and counter many current Ubers. In fact many of them are used in Ubers to do just that. Just because there are a select few who counter Zamazenta in the current OU tier, does nothing to change the fact that Zamazenta is too strong, fast, and bulky for the majority of the available options in the OU tier.
 
If Ubers were treated like a legitimate tier instead of a banlist, Ferrothorn would be Uber by usage stats alone.

But I don't want this to devolve into a tangential discussion around that point, so I'm going to weigh in with some questions:

What does Zamazenta actually add to the tier? Like yes it in theory addresses knock off spam, and is bulky and strong and whatnot, but in practice, what have been everyone's experience? Does it actively help answer big knock off spammers and choice band cannons (such as Rillaboom?)
And then my other question: what does Zamazenta push out of the meta into UU and under? I know that isn't something anyone should consider, but... I think it should be considered. So as not to derail the conversation around this point, I'd like to focus on what I asked regarding "What does Zamazenta push out of the meta? What pokemon leave the tier, and what pokemon does it make more viable?"

Furthermore, does this test feel "more fun" than the meta just before (which a large majority, myself included, seemed to be enjoying)?
Because if Zam makes OU less fun, leave it in Uber hell where it can suffer for eternity.
 
If Ubers were treated like a legitimate tier instead of a banlist, Ferrothorn would be Uber by usage stats alone.

But I don't want this to devolve into a tangential discussion around that point, so I'm going to weigh in with some questions:

What does Zamazenta actually add to the tier? Like yes it in theory addresses knock off spam, and is bulky and strong and whatnot, but in practice, what have been everyone's experience? Does it actively help answer big knock off spammers and choice band cannons (such as Rillaboom?)
And then my other question: what does Zamazenta push out of the meta into UU and under? I know that isn't something anyone should consider, but... I think it should be considered. So as not to derail the conversation around this point, I'd like to focus on what I asked regarding "What does Zamazenta push out of the meta? What pokemon leave the tier, and what pokemon does it make more viable?"

Furthermore, does this test feel "more fun" than the meta just before (which a large majority, myself included, seemed to be enjoying)?
Because if Zam makes OU less fun, leave it in Uber hell where it can suffer for eternity.
Zama adds checks to Kyurem, Tornadus-T, Rillaboom, Kartana (kinda), and just straight up counters most of the dark types in the meta. Weavile, Tyranitar, Bisharp, and Hydreigon would fall usage wise for sure since Zama just hard walls them. Though Weavile isn't ou by usage, I could've for sure seen it going to ou if Zama wasn't around. You mentioned it already but, a trick/knock off immunity is very useful. Knock off is everywhere and trick is well tricky to deal with. Also, Excadrill could fall off too but it already is so yikes for Excadrill. There's also a good case for Melmetal falling off too, since Zama and Melmetal offer similar roles though I'm not 100 percent sure on this one.

Regarding Kyurem, Tornadus-T, Rillaboom, and Kartana though, Zama is a mon that can take an attack from all of them and threaten a kill back. I see these mons mostly in the same boat as Zama, in the sense that most of their counterplay is defensive. Zama is a offensive mon that threatens all of them which I don't see much of in this meta. Each of these mons could have an offensive answer, for example Scarf Lando taking a hit from Kart then threatening it back, but none are as consistent as Zama in my experience.
 
Weavile, Tyranitar, Bisharp, and Hydreigon would fall usage wise for sure since Zama just hard walls them.
Weavile and Bisharp can pack Low Kick, and it's not like Low Kick is a dead slot otherwise (lets them more easily get past Heatran, esp. if it's had Lefties removed from a weak Knock Off, Ferrothorn, and Tyranitar). Banded Low Kick 2HKO's Zamazenta too - and while Zam outspeeds, since it's not often packing reliable recovery, the damage Low Kick does is really notable.
 
Zama is strong with a base 130 attack stat yeah. However, it gets no boosting item and only has howl to boost it's attack stat. So while it can deal some good damage to offense, it does have ways for offense to beat it.

Many other posts point out the ways offense can adapt to Zama but I'm just gonna repeat them. Volcarona turns Zama into set up fodder. If Zama stays in and howls to try and kill it with Wild Charge, it also risks getting burned which makes Zama dead weight. Grassy/Electric seed Hawlucha always lives a wild charge from Zama, gets an SD, and pro
It's really not as clear as people think, and as a person who thinks Zama should be unbanned I disagree with this.

Zama is strong with a base 130 attack stat yeah. However, it gets no boosting item and only has howl to boost it's attack stat. So while it can deal some good damage to offense, it does have ways for offense to beat it.

Many other posts point out the ways offense can adapt to Zama but I'm just gonna repeat them. Volcarona turns Zama into set up fodder. If Zama stays in and howls to try and kill it with Wild Charge, it also risks getting burned which makes Zama dead weight. Grassy/Electric seed Hawlucha always lives a wild charge from Zama, gets an SD, and proceeds to kill Zama in return. Zama is also pretty prone to taking chip throughout the game, so mons like Tapu Koko and Dragapult can outspeed and kill a weakened Zama. Landorus and Garchomp also handle Zama well, IF it's not running ice fang, and deal good damage in return to make sure another teammate could come in and revenge kill it. Specifically Landorus, who also can remove Zama's howl boost with Intimidate. This is a more niche pick BUT, banded Buzzwole is an offensive mon that just completely destroys Zama. Aegislash is another more niche pick that also deals with Zama, though it depends on the Aegislash variant.

As someone who used this team for a fair amount of games to try and get reqs, I never struggled with Zama. This struggle that people have with Offense vs. Zama is more of an on paper thing than in practice. At least in my eyes
PSA: Stop using Jolly Zama-C, it's way worse because it loses power for outspeeding Pokemon it can already beat, or can be beaten with teammates. Like Weavile banded Low Kick forces it to do that, and other mons just don't care about that play.
 

Shurtugal

The Enterpriser.
is a Tiering Contributor
Made requirements, so thought I'd post my thoughts:

Zama-C seems like a Trojan Horse. At a glance it looks harmless enough, right? It has a small movepool, exploitable typing, no access to an item slot, and it's dual coverage is walled by quite a few Pokemon. However, this Pokemon only appears to be underwhelming because the game hasn't developed enough to adjust to its presence.

Zama-C is really bulky and fast, making it just a huge headache to offensive teams. It also gets boosts off pretty easily, so it can lategame a lot of balance/stall as well. You'd think stall can counter this, but it doesnt take much skill in Zama-C's teambuilder to account for that. You just need fairly minimal support, because +1/+2 Zama-C is going to absolutely crush defensive teams that have pex / corviknight weakened. Even something finnicky like Trick support is good enough to cripple something crucial.

I'd like to pointout that while it's movepool is "small", it actually has a few tools that i think will be threatening the more people learn how to play Zama-C. Especially looking at Iron Defense/Rest/Substitute/Work Up being a huge headache. It also has moderately good coverage options outside of its STABs, like Ice Fang, Wild Charge, Crunch, Psychic Fangs, Play Rough, etc.

I feel like this Pokemon is a bit similar to Spectrier. While it might not have a lot of sets, it's going to be really good at the one set it does have. It can steamroll offensive teams and stall teams alike, i actually think this is unironically one of the better wallbreakers in the tier, which is crazy for a Pokemon that doesn't have an opened item slot.

I'm gonna read up on what everyone else said about this Pokemon before finalizing my vote, but so far I'm leading to Ban/Do not bring into OU
 
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