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Metagame np: SS DOU Stage 10: Running up that Hill | Ally Switch Remains Unbanned
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my hero
For those wondering how this suspect came about, the process was:
1) Prominent members of the community called for a suspect.
2) 50% of respondents to the most recent survey requested we take action on Ally Switch, more than any other response.
3) The council voted in favor of suspecting Ally Switch.
At this point, it would be irresponsible NOT to suspect Ally Switch.
That being said, I’m absolutely voting to ban Ally Switch. It’s a cheap move that is unhealthy for the tier. Pokémon games can easily be swayed in one turn, and being able to completely surprise your opponent and swap the positions of your Pokémon can be a game changer. The move distribution is so large that if you attempt to play optimally and factor in the odds that perhaps the opposing Mew (or Cresselia, or Dragapult, or Metagross, or Porygon2, or Tapu Lele, or Lati twins, etc.) is running ally switch, then you end up making a lot of suboptimal plays to try to play around this possibility. Once Ally Switch is revealed, then it can often turn into a cat and mouse game of trying to predict whether ally switch is chosen this turn. It’s just unhealthy in a game where proper positioning is supposed to be rewarded.
A) if any good Pokémon gets Follow Me, it’s banned (Jirachi)
B) if a Pokémon learns Follow Me, it ALWAYS runs that move.
Blastoise, Indeedee-f, Clefairy, Mr. Mime, Togekiss, even Magmar etc. all have no role and would never be seen if they didn’t learn the move Follow Me. So Ally Switch can be viewed as a slightly inferior Follow Me, but then is super well distributed, and learned by great Pokémon (Mew, Metagross, Dragapult, Cresselia, Genesect, Porygon2, etc.)
So the question is whether or not you believe the distribution of Ally Switch to outweigh the fact that it’s a slightly worse version of Follow Me, which I believe it absolutely does. Whenever I see one of the handful of Pokémon that learn Follow Me, I KNOW it is running that move, and can play optimally around it. So many of the Pokémon that learn Ally Switch are popular Pokémon that have valuable sets that don’t include Ally Switch, which means they can disguise it well, leading to Ally Switch drastically altering games when they do run it. That’s why I consider it a cheap, unhealthy trick that should be banned.
1) Prominent members of the community called for a suspect.
2) 50% of respondents to the most recent survey requested we take action on Ally Switch, more than any other response.
3) The council voted in favor of suspecting Ally Switch.
At this point, it would be irresponsible NOT to suspect Ally Switch.
This point here is exactly why now is the time to suspect Ally Switch, as we’ve removed all other broken and uncompetitive elements from the tier.
That being said, I’m absolutely voting to ban Ally Switch. It’s a cheap move that is unhealthy for the tier. Pokémon games can easily be swayed in one turn, and being able to completely surprise your opponent and swap the positions of your Pokémon can be a game changer. The move distribution is so large that if you attempt to play optimally and factor in the odds that perhaps the opposing Mew (or Cresselia, or Dragapult, or Metagross, or Porygon2, or Tapu Lele, or Lati twins, etc.) is running ally switch, then you end up making a lot of suboptimal plays to try to play around this possibility. Once Ally Switch is revealed, then it can often turn into a cat and mouse game of trying to predict whether ally switch is chosen this turn. It’s just unhealthy in a game where proper positioning is supposed to be rewarded.
I’m glad that many of you have brought up Follow Me, as yes Ally Switch is a worse version of Follow Me. Both moves are used by one Pokémon to protect its ally, both are negated by spread moves, fake out, etc. and both are passive, as Yoda correctly mentioned above. Ally Switch is a worse version, because of course Follow Me redirects all attacks, however you can target the user of Ally Switch and hit the other target. The thing about the comparison though is that Follow Me is SUCH a powerful move that
A) if any good Pokémon gets Follow Me, it’s banned (Jirachi)
B) if a Pokémon learns Follow Me, it ALWAYS runs that move.
Blastoise, Indeedee-f, Clefairy, Mr. Mime, Togekiss, even Magmar etc. all have no role and would never be seen if they didn’t learn the move Follow Me. So Ally Switch can be viewed as a slightly inferior Follow Me, but then is super well distributed, and learned by great Pokémon (Mew, Metagross, Dragapult, Cresselia, Genesect, Porygon2, etc.)
So the question is whether or not you believe the distribution of Ally Switch to outweigh the fact that it’s a slightly worse version of Follow Me, which I believe it absolutely does. Whenever I see one of the handful of Pokémon that learn Follow Me, I KNOW it is running that move, and can play optimally around it. So many of the Pokémon that learn Ally Switch are popular Pokémon that have valuable sets that don’t include Ally Switch, which means they can disguise it well, leading to Ally Switch drastically altering games when they do run it. That’s why I consider it a cheap, unhealthy trick that should be banned.
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Wow i gotta say i am not impressed with the anti ban posts, to me ally switch is clearly fundamentally uncompetitive. What makes it so uncompetitive is the lack of counterplay. Ally switch is often compared to as an unreliable follow me, but what makes it far more potent (although unreliable) is that it switches both slots instead of redirecting both to one. Partnering mons often resist each others weaknesses so both mons can easily live the swapped hits, while a follow me redirector will rarely be healthy after redirecting 2 hits. This makes predicting the first ally switch before reveal extremely risky (basically a throw) if they do not have/use ally switch, and of course every turn after a revealed ally switch there is the potential 50/50s. It's true not every turn ally switch can force the 50/50 but it happens often enough when partnering mons shield each other’s weaknesses.
Ally switch is most potent on its first use so players often save the reveal for a critical moment to grab a huge advantage, and then ideally can win off the gained momentum, but can also fall back to clicking it again in 50/50 scenarios when needed. A move that robs a turn and then can get best value by never clicking it again (when the opponent overpredicts the ally switch) is clearly very unhealthy. This leads to a degenerate “weighted” 50/50 where it's better for the ally switch player not to click ally which means the opponent should target normally but that makes it better for the ally switch player to click ally which makes it better for the opponent to predict ally switch which restarts the circular logic.
There are 2 weak counterplays to a revealed ally switch:
1 is to target normally to “force” the opponent to click ally switch but whenever you really need to hit the right target, it becomes a 50/50.
2 is to double target a slot so that you get good damage regardless of which you hit, but again, whenever you really need to hit the right target, it becomes a 50/50.
As for tour usage, yes it's very low and this is mostly since smogon is a small playerbase that values competitive strats more than just winning. In more important games like osdt and scl we saw some ally switch since it is indeed lethal when used well. If it doesnt get banned, perhaps its time for us to abuse ally switch far more to show concrete evidence of its uncompetitiveness?
As for brokenness, the first use feels pretty broken but thats not the angle worth arguing for.
In summary, ally switch is a cheap trick that is very potent on its first use and then brings silly 50/50 scenarios after, if the user still needs more momentum to win.
Ally switch is most potent on its first use so players often save the reveal for a critical moment to grab a huge advantage, and then ideally can win off the gained momentum, but can also fall back to clicking it again in 50/50 scenarios when needed. A move that robs a turn and then can get best value by never clicking it again (when the opponent overpredicts the ally switch) is clearly very unhealthy. This leads to a degenerate “weighted” 50/50 where it's better for the ally switch player not to click ally which means the opponent should target normally but that makes it better for the ally switch player to click ally which makes it better for the opponent to predict ally switch which restarts the circular logic.
There are 2 weak counterplays to a revealed ally switch:
1 is to target normally to “force” the opponent to click ally switch but whenever you really need to hit the right target, it becomes a 50/50.
2 is to double target a slot so that you get good damage regardless of which you hit, but again, whenever you really need to hit the right target, it becomes a 50/50.
As for tour usage, yes it's very low and this is mostly since smogon is a small playerbase that values competitive strats more than just winning. In more important games like osdt and scl we saw some ally switch since it is indeed lethal when used well. If it doesnt get banned, perhaps its time for us to abuse ally switch far more to show concrete evidence of its uncompetitiveness?
As for brokenness, the first use feels pretty broken but thats not the angle worth arguing for.
In summary, ally switch is a cheap trick that is very potent on its first use and then brings silly 50/50 scenarios after, if the user still needs more momentum to win.
You can't be playing optimally by making suboptimal plays at the same time. As mentioned in my post, there generally isn't an option available which perfectly covers all the opponent's possible sets and plays (i.e. an "optimal" play), you can't always cover everything, there is nothing unique about Ally Switch in that regard, it's a drop in the ocean of possible moves someone could reveal and be a game changer. I also really do not get the distribution argument, in practical terms you're looking at one, maybe two possible users per team (though it's generally pretty clear which if any would be running it, Genesect hardly counts), so how is wide distribution being argued as a point here? One possible user per team is the lowest non-zero amount you can have (you could have a lower distribution where there's a larger amount of teams with zero possible users, but that's irrelevant to how it affects games where it is a possibility).
The "cat and mouse game" of predicting what your opponent will do is a central part of the game. There's predictions every single game, of whether you think your opponent clicks Fake Out or U-turns on an anticipated switch, Protects or attacks, switches or stays in, finishes off a Pokemon with an attack that covers switches A and B or one that covers switches C and D, targets Pokemon X or Y, uses the revealed Taunt or not (or tries to use Trick Room/etcetera against it), redirects or doesn't, and so on. Some plays are more or less prediction-reliant than others, and so the risk / reward of them also varies greatly, but it is the fundamental nature of a simultaneous turn game that you do not know for certain what your opponent is doing and must play with what you predict them to do in mind. Someone might prefer a game where that isn't the case (e.g. Chess), but that is what Pokemon is, you can't argue something is "unhealthy" just for being part of that. If there were no "cat and mouse" element to Pokemon it would be a completely different game. Ally Switch also does not mean positioning isn't rewarded, the user needs to position correctly for it to be good, while the opponent can position to make it bad; this applies to everything, but it's especially true in the case of Ally Switch due to its low floor.
Ally Switch is not just "slightly" inferior to Follow Me, as this example shows. Follow Me took a good Pokemon and pushed it to being banworthy, and is a move that, without, several Pokemon would lose their viability completely. Compare this to Ally Switch, would any Pokemon step down in viability without access to it? It's very difficult to argue yes to that. You could say "oh but those Pokemon were already good though", but it's not like Ally Switch has given new life to anything either, for example Chansey is still only fringe viable and Shedinja is still not a thing. As covered above I don't think the distribution is really an argument either, so the conclusion here is that Ally Switch is a MUCH worse Follow Me, and that's a move which isn't banned.
On the point of KNOWING that a Pokemon has Follow Me, that's not completely true, but regardless, that would be a result of it being one of the strongest moves and the Pokemon which have it lacking another viable set (which can be the case because of how strong Follow Me alone is). That's the exception rather than the norm when it comes to moves though, Fake Out, Tailwind, and Trick Room are the only moves I would put in the same category (which is again because of how strong they are). As has been said multiple times before, there will ALWAYS be lesser used ("cheap") moves which when revealed can turn the tide of the game, Ally Switch is not unique. Teambuilding is a major part of the game, why is it "unhealthy" that someone can get an advantage from utilising a less used move?
Are we seriously arguing that Ally Switch is more potent than Follow Me now? Follow Me is the far stronger move, every Ally Switch Pokemon wishes it had Follow Me instead. Sure there's sometimes the plus of swapping into double resists but that's far from the norm and hardly makes up for its massive drawbacks.
Getting the "best value" when you don't click the move but the opponent plays around anyways it straight up applies to Follow Me, among other moves like Wide Guard and Taunt too, they are support moves which have the sole function of making the opponent (not) use certain moves and targets, so obviously it's better to click another move if the mere threat of the move is already fulfilling its purpose. Fake Out is similar too, if you can get your opponent to Protect / switch because of it without actually clicking it (e.g. using U-turn instead) that's also the "unhealthy" scenario described which is a perfectly normal part of the game.
The counterplay point is completely disingenious here, Ally Switch has the same counterplay as Follow Me but you can also target around it too as has been covered before, it's not just 'and then everything becomes a 50/50 anyways' which is straight up untrue.
only for the first use yes ally switch is more potent
i explained above how the counterplay is diff? redir takes both hits while ally each mon takes 1 which can often resist
yes predicting is central but i pointed how predicting unrevealed ally is pretty much inviable?
Figured I'd weigh in with a couple comments on the current pro-ban posts if that's ok! Even though I've already disclosed I will likely be voting DNB, my intent here isn't to be pro- or anti-ban, just wanted to touch on points I liked as well as points I have questions about.
From what I've experienced and seen, the whole "forced 50/50" thing is only relevant in specific endgame scenarios where the Ally Switch-inflicted opponent doesn't have any viable outs left other than guessing the 50/50. Otherwise, there are many other options on the table besides just guessing a 50/50 with the current mons active on the battlefield.
4 is if Ally Switch is revealed too early in the game (e.g. before endgame decisions) you should have enough other mons in the back that you can reset your positioning so on the following turn the Ally Switch mindgames aren't too impactful (this is BY FAR my weakest argument of the night, I'm getting tired D:)
TL;DR - Ally Switch is a high-risk, high-reward move that actually rewards the better player for deploying Ally Switch at the correct time. If you lost to a good Ally Switch, you lost the high-stakes game.
And PS: as is the case with all my posts, if I've made a glaring error or oversight, let me know and I'll fix it. I am self-disclosed as a DNB voter but that doesn't mean I don't want to fix mistakes in my post even if it weakens my arguments. :)
I think this is the most important thing Ally Switch does when considering whether or not to ban it. In my original post (which I will be citing a lot) the common theme with all 6/6 replays I found and listed was that Ally Switch has mainly been deployed as a surprise "panic button" to salvage and usually reverse a turn's matchup where the Ally Switch user is at risk of losing one or both Pokemon. In 5/6 of my replays, Ally Switch accomplished this successfully, and in 4/6 of my replays the Ally Switch user proceeded to win the rest of the game.
I think it's a slight exaggeration to say Ally Switch's move distribution is "so large" when you consider how many VR ranked Pokemon learn the move AND can viably afford to drop a standard move for it. In my listed replays (which isn't all inclusive of every Ally Switch ever used, just a small sample) I saw:
- (2) Porygon2
- (2) Cresselia
- (1) Chansey, and
- (1) Comfey
- Mew (viable) - I think Cress does the same job better with more bulk and a Ground immunity, but in theory Mew is a better overall mon and can bluff other sets better. Haven't seen it used in tours tho.
- Cresselia (viable) - Accounts for 2/6 uses in my listed replays. Has better bulk than Mew + Ground immunity, and can drop one of Moonlight or Toxic for Ally Switch on sets that aren't based on Calm Mind
- Porygon2 (viable) - Icy Wind sets can afford to drop Trick Room for Ally Switch without giving up Recover, which is probably the ideal Ally Switch P2. That said, TR P2 can drop Recover for Ally Switch and still put in good work on offensive builds like psyspam (even though it didn't work in the replay I cited).
- Metagross (maybe??) - Need to see a replay before I'm convinced, but on paper Metagross does have solid defensive typing and bulk. I've seen Trick Metagross used to good effect before so I'm not against an Ally Switch gross, on paper.
- Dragapult (nah) - Show me replays and I'll change my mind, BUT, at best you'd run this on LO Dragapult over U-turn??? Dragapult doesn't really have the bulk to pull this off tho and I think you want to preserve it for its offensive potential in most games.
- Tapu Lele (nah) - Show replays if I'm wrong, but just use Indeedee-F if you're at the point of considering Ally Switch Lele?? Lele can be ev'd bulky-ish but I think if you're using Lele > INDD on Psyspam its for added offenses. Fairy/Psychic typing isn't that great defensively and neither is Lele's overall bulk.
- Lati@s twins (nah) - Latios wants to be running offensive sets like Specs (see: Fespy sand). Latias in theory is probably an ok pick for Ally Switch but is basically just a faster, flimsier Cresselia. Show me a good replay of Ally Switch Latias and I might change my mind.
- Comfey - Saw it put in work with Ally Switch in this Kylecole vs Nido-Rus game, but Comfey is a very niche mon with exactly one role (to heal allies) so Ally Switch is just a "nice to have" bonus move on a do-nothing utility bot.
- Ribombee - I don't have a replay but I think I've seen a webs + hyper offense Ribombee team where it ran Ally Switch for extra utility and it was like, fine.
I could only find one replay where things actually played out this way, but this is the best example (Turns 15-16) I could find: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8doublesou-636588
From what I've experienced and seen, the whole "forced 50/50" thing is only relevant in specific endgame scenarios where the Ally Switch-inflicted opponent doesn't have any viable outs left other than guessing the 50/50. Otherwise, there are many other options on the table besides just guessing a 50/50 with the current mons active on the battlefield.
Tbh Follow Me has a way better distribution than Ally Switch and it's not even close. Blastoise is basically the optimal Fake Out + Follow Me utility bot other than the fact that Water-type is kinda ass with Rillaboom in the tier. INDD providing follow me + psychic terrain utility (not to mention other utility in Helping Hand and Heal Pulse) is a super optimized set. Clefairy is _eh_ but has Friend Guard. Togekiss is _eh_ but has good defensive stats and some utility in Serene Grace. Mr. Mime and Magmar are memes, much like Ally Switch Dusclops is a meme. Point being though, the viably ranked Follow Me users are optimally built to use Follow Me, while most Ally Switch users would generally rather be using more optimal moves. It takes skill in the teambuilder and on the battlefield to add Ally Switch to a mon AND deploy it effectively on the right turn.
Ok so my take is Ally Switch isn't "better" or "worse" than Follow Me, but rather an alternative to Follow Me with higher stakes for both the user and recipient. Ally Switch's distribution isn't better than Follow Me; there is a higher risk for adding Ally Switch to a user but a higher payoff for correctly using it due to A) being less predictable on team preview compared to Follow Me/Rage Powder users and B) needing to find the right turn where both allies trading defensive typings would benefit from Ally Switch being deployed.
Onus is on the proponents of change to make their case, and so far all but two posts have been in defense of Ally Switch staying legal.
This is entirely correct imo. The replays I cited in my original post reinforce the idea that Ally Switch has been best used by capitalizing on mutual type synergy between the two allies that are switching places.
Yes, this is where Ally Switch asserts power more than anything else; when deployed correctly, Ally Switch can answer and completely counter a turn where the opponent though they calculated their path to victory correctly. Ally Switch is a discreet and uncommon enough tech that it is insanely effective when used correctly.
In the replays I could find, the post-reveal 50/50s don't actually happen or matter all that much. But to play devil's advocate, this replay is a good example of what you're talking about, so it definitely _can_ happen: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8doublesou-636588
I'm not denying that Ally Switch imposes really frustrating mindgames when deployed correctly - that's the entire point of the move. But I think using Ally Switch correctly, and not just burning the Ally Switch reveal on an inconsequential turn, requires a lot of skill and accurate prediction. So like I've been saying, Ally Switch is kind of a high-risk high-reward move for someone who can use it to good effect.
3 is to include more viable spread attackers on your team. Often times Ally Switch imo is used as a bit of a CT tech to punish opponents who habitually don't respect the importance of spread coverage enough.
4 is if Ally Switch is revealed too early in the game (e.g. before endgame decisions) you should have enough other mons in the back that you can reset your positioning so on the following turn the Ally Switch mindgames aren't too impactful (this is BY FAR my weakest argument of the night, I'm getting tired D:)
YO! I would love if more ppl cited replays. I'm just one person, and I found 6 good ones. I assume the actual use of Ally Switch must be a bit higher than my cited replays suggest??
First Ally Switch reveal is when it is most powerful/broken. 50/50s usually don't matter from what I've seen.
TL;DR - Ally Switch is a high-risk, high-reward move that actually rewards the better player for deploying Ally Switch at the correct time. If you lost to a good Ally Switch, you lost the high-stakes game.
And PS: as is the case with all my posts, if I've made a glaring error or oversight, let me know and I'll fix it. I am self-disclosed as a DNB voter but that doesn't mean I don't want to fix mistakes in my post even if it weakens my arguments. :)
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Teals
Banned deucer.
Yeah you forgot to mention how Ally Switch is for babies
After seeing the replies on this thread, I want to declare that I vote to NOT BAN Ally Switch.
The Arguments Against Ally Switch seem based on two things, mostly:
1. It is annoying.
2. It adds unpredictability.
I concur that annoying is not a sufficient argument to ban a move. If Landorous is not banned, I also believe Ally Switch has its place, especially in OU.
Secondly, for the unpredictability case, that is true. However, I, personally, dislike the tendency of CLOSING the versatility of move sets and combinations of Pokemon. Part of the enjoyment of the game comes from NOT KNOWING the exact set up your opponent has. In Doubles, that is even more true since it allows for a wider variety of combinations. Closing even more the variety of the game would just eventually cause boredom and annoyance, I believe.
The Arguments Against Ally Switch seem based on two things, mostly:
1. It is annoying.
2. It adds unpredictability.
I concur that annoying is not a sufficient argument to ban a move. If Landorous is not banned, I also believe Ally Switch has its place, especially in OU.
Secondly, for the unpredictability case, that is true. However, I, personally, dislike the tendency of CLOSING the versatility of move sets and combinations of Pokemon. Part of the enjoyment of the game comes from NOT KNOWING the exact set up your opponent has. In Doubles, that is even more true since it allows for a wider variety of combinations. Closing even more the variety of the game would just eventually cause boredom and annoyance, I believe.
no the key point of uncompetitiveness is Partnering mons often resist each others weaknesses so both mons can easily live the swapped hits, while a follow me redirector will rarely be healthy after redirecting 2 hits. This makes predicting the first ally switch before reveal extremely risky (basically a throw) if they do not have/use ally switch. its low risk high reward for the user, but high risk for the opponent
yea tricky to find replays i think not worth bothering tbh, not enough use to show good evidence. if no ban all the pro ban ppl should use it a bunch to give the evidence yall want haha.
ya shoulda been more specific im talking in single target scenarios. ofc spread counters ally/follow but im arguing uncompetitveness, showing how common spread is in dou is a good arg for why ally isnt broken but not related to uncompetitveness aspect, single target scenarios happen a ton
There are still votes remaining, but the result is decided. With Do Not Ban having received over 40% of the vote already, there is no way for Ban to get to the necessary 60%, and as such Ally Switch will not be banned from SS DOU. The current voting breakdown is as follows:
Ban: 25 (35.7%)
Do Not Ban: 31 (44.3%)
Votes Remaining: 14 (20%)
Ban: 25 (35.7%)
Do Not Ban: 31 (44.3%)
Votes Remaining: 14 (20%)
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