Metagame np: SM UU Stage 10.5 - Water Me (weather test)

vivalospride

been up all year my third eye aint even blinkin’
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Hello, you dickheads aren't posting in regards to the pyuku shit so I will do so to spark some sort of conversation (hopefully).

Pyukumuku by itself is definitely not banworthy, for obvious reasons. This situation is so unique that I don't really know how to go about it or how council should go about it, I'm not good with this whole tiering shit b/c im too lazy/don't care enough to think that hard about it, and I can't say I know the details of tiering and how everything works in the first place. I feel like banning pyuku will w/o a doubt result in lower tiers being upset and shitting on the council/tls (p sure like... zu.. would be the only one that'd be greatly effected by pyuku's ban tho, so maybe not).

Regardless of all this I'm for a council vote on pyuku if you guys wanna do that, definitely not a suspect test. I think a suspect test would be OVERWHELMINGLY in the clear for pyuku staying no matter what b/c of the general culture around getting reqs n shit, a lot of the people that get reqs aren't really invested in the metagame they're getting reqs in and wouldn't understand why the fuck we're having a test on pyukumuku, and just vote keep b/c looking at the mon's viability on it's own definitely suggests that it's far from broken. If you fsr do wanna go the suspect test route with this, maybe try making reqs hard as fuck or just a stupid amount of games so the only ones that go for em are the ones really dedicated to the tier or some shit idk LOL.

I think stall is safe as fuck and the meta would be less of a shit show to build in if it wasn't so prevalent. If you guys find some sort of solution to this then I'm for it, maybe it's pyuku :O.

pokeisfun
 
Hello, you dickheads aren't posting in regards to the pyuku shit so I will do so to spark some sort of conversation (hopefully).

Pyukumuku by itself is definitely not banworthy, for obvious reasons. This situation is so unique that I don't really know how to go about it or how council should go about it, I'm not good with this whole tiering shit b/c im too lazy/don't care enough to think that hard about it, and I can't say I know the details of tiering and how everything works in the first place. I feel like banning pyuku will w/o a doubt result in lower tiers being upset and shitting on the council/tls (p sure like... zu.. would be the only one that'd be greatly effected by pyuku's ban tho, so maybe not).

Regardless of all this I'm for a council vote on pyuku if you guys wanna do that, definitely not a suspect test. I think a suspect test would be OVERWHELMINGLY in the clear for pyuku staying no matter what b/c of the general culture around getting reqs n shit, a lot of the people that get reqs aren't really invested in the metagame they're getting reqs in and wouldn't understand why the fuck we're having a test on pyukumuku, and just vote keep b/c looking at the mon's viability on it's own definitely suggests that it's far from broken. If you fsr do wanna go the suspect test route with this, maybe try making reqs hard as fuck or just a stupid amount of games so the only ones that go for em are the ones really dedicated to the tier or some shit idk LOL.

I think stall is safe as fuck and the meta would be less of a shit show to build in if it wasn't so prevalent. If you guys find some sort of solution to this then I'm for it, maybe it's pyuku :O.

pokeisfun
You do not understand the question.
The question is: Is Stall too strong for UU ?
Not: What pokemon should we ban because Stall is too strong ?
The second question is interesting, yes, but useless if the answer to the first question is no.

The ladder is meaningless because people doesn't care about the presence of stall, so they build teams which are weak against stall most of the time.
[ Like in OU, if you build without consider the presence of Rain, then, your team will be weak against Raint most of the time. ]

Only tournaments can help us to answer to the first question. It's a good thing that Snake is now. That is the usage of the first 3 weeks:

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon | Use | Usage % | Win % |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1 | Scizor | 16 | 53.33% | 50.00% |
| 2 | Krookodile | 13 | 43.33% | 53.85% |
| 3 | Latias | 10 | 33.33% | 40.00% |
| 3 | Altaria | 10 | 33.33% | 30.00% |
| 5 | Rotom-Heat | 9 | 30.00% | 44.44% |
| 6 | Amoonguss | 8 | 26.67% | 62.50% |
| 7 | Tentacruel | 7 | 23.33% | 42.86% |
| 8 | Aerodactyl | 6 | 20.00% | 66.67% |
| 8 | Terrakion | 6 | 20.00% | 50.00% |
| 8 | Blissey | 6 | 20.00% | 50.00% |
| 11 | Sharpedo | 5 | 16.67% | 60.00% |
| 12 | Rhyperior | 4 | 13.33% | 50.00% |
| 12 | Mimikyu | 4 | 13.33% | 50.00% |
| 12 | Hydreigon | 4 | 13.33% | 50.00% |
| 12 | Gligar | 4 | 13.33% | 25.00% |
| 16 | Togekiss | 3 | 10.00% | 100.00% |
| 16 | Klefki | 3 | 10.00% | 66.67% |
| 16 | Hippowdon | 3 | 10.00% | 66.67% |
| 16 | Slowbro | 3 | 10.00% | 66.67% |
| 16 | Swampert | 3 | 10.00% | 33.33% |
| 16 | Aggron | 3 | 10.00% | 33.33% |
| 16 | Infernape | 3 | 10.00% | 33.33% |
| 16 | Alomomola | 3 | 10.00% | 33.33% |
| 24 | Manectric | 2 | 6.67% | 100.00% |
| 24 | Jellicent | 2 | 6.67% | 100.00% |
| 24 | Bisharp | 2 | 6.67% | 50.00% |
| 24 | Froslass | 2 | 6.67% | 50.00% |
| 24 | Magneton | 2 | 6.67% | 50.00% |
| 24 | Celebi | 2 | 6.67% | 50.00% |
| 24 | Lucario | 2 | 6.67% | 50.00% |
| 24 | Starmie | 2 | 6.67% | 50.00% |
| 24 | Primarina | 2 | 6.67% | 50.00% |
| 24 | Cobalion | 2 | 6.67% | 50.00% |
| 24 | Florges-White | 2 | 6.67% | 0.00% |
| 24 | Bewear | 2 | 6.67% | 0.00% |
| 24 | Doublade | 2 | 6.67% | 0.00% |
| 37 | Feraligatr | 1 | 3.33% | 100.00% |
| 37 | Sylveon | 1 | 3.33% | 100.00% |
| 37 | Nihilego | 1 | 3.33% | 100.00% |
| 37 | Empoleon | 1 | 3.33% | 100.00% |
| 37 | Suicune | 1 | 3.33% | 100.00% |
| 37 | Nidoqueen | 1 | 3.33% | 100.00% |
| 37 | Muk-Alola | 1 | 3.33% | 100.00% |
| 37 | Pyukumuku | 1 | 3.33% | 100.00% |
| 37 | Mienshao | 1 | 3.33% | 100.00% |
| 37 | Roserade | 1 | 3.33% | 100.00% |
| 37 | Mamoswine | 1 | 3.33% | 100.00% |
| 37 | Blastoise | 1 | 3.33% | 0.00% |
| 37 | Salazzle | 1 | 3.33% | 0.00% |
| 37 | Reuniclus | 1 | 3.33% | 0.00% |
| 37 | Moltres | 1 | 3.33% | 0.00% |
| 37 | Steelix | 1 | 3.33% | 0.00% |
| 37 | Florges-Blue | 1 | 3.33% | 0.00% |
| 37 | Volcanion | 1 | 3.33% | 0.00% |

Do you see a lot of stallers ? :blobshrug:

We saw 38 teams since the beginning of the tournament. There have been 2 Hard-Stall and 2 Semi-Stall with a winrate of 50% to both.

So why do you think that Hard-Stall or Semi-Stall are too strong in UU ?
 

vivalospride

been up all year my third eye aint even blinkin’
is a Community Contributoris a Top Tiering Contributoris a Top Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnus
You do not understand the question.
The question is: Is Stall too strong for UU ?
Not: What pokemon should we ban because Stall is too strong ?
I am literally just responding to this post. What are you talking about? You know about 99% of this site will never play in any official tour so I don't wanna throw out the ladder and UU Open like they don't matter b/c that'd be just blatantly ignoring the entirety of the UU player base outside of the bubble that is official tours. You can think your opinion is objectively correct and keep smackin people with it in this thread if you want, but these convos on whether stall is too strong or not in UU have been going in circles for quite a while now, and the entire post is written in the hypothetical situation where they want to nerf stall. The purpose of the post was to spark conversation on misa's idea on testing pyukumuku, I was not responding to the question "Is Stall too strong for UU ?". Have some sort of awareness to what anyone is talking about instead of making the same post a second time for absolutely no reason, just relax :).
 
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Nothing is happening to stall at this point. However there is another broken element in the tier imo. Mimikyu is guaranteed a kill every match unless the opponent is running aggron/steelix/fat sciz. Together with its spinblocking capabilities I think it pushes spikestacking HO over the top. Any team without a fat steel plus fast defogger is is rendered useless vs this playstyle. Atleast thats my experience. I would hate to see the tier ending up with mmq HO and stall as the two strongest playstyles lol. I feel like a legit tour strat rn is switching between HO and stall since prepping for both at the same time is a nightmare. Atleast nerf one of them plz
 
I'm not sure if stall needs to be nerfed or not, or if we should suspect something to make stall less oppressive/consistent. However, if something needs to be suspected, I don't think Pyukumuku is what needs to be suspect tested. First of all, as has been pointed out, banning Pyukumuku in UU would ban it in lower tiers, all of which it is viable in. It more consistently checks Salazzle than Quagsire (with enough SpD investment), and can check Ninetales as well, making it a solid pick in RU, for example. It would be especially missed in ZU, but it will be missed in other tiers as well.

Additionally, I don't think that banning Pyukumuku would make stall much, if any worse. Pyukumuku is mostly used on stall teams in conjunction with Quagsire to check special sweepers that Quag and Blissey can't. This is a pretty small list, and includes Infernape, Lucario, Celebi (which Blissey can check, albeit not as easily as Pyukumuku), and Latias (which actually has a chance to 2HKO, but strongly in Pyukumuku's favor). Maybe there are others, but I'm not aware of them (let me know what else Pyukumuku is needed for if there is anything). Anyway, here are some Pokemon/sets that can check at least some of these Pokemon, and so at least partially replace Pyukumuku:

https://pokepast.es/a40bc9a4c4100052

The Moltres set can OHKO both Infernape and Lucario, while resisting both of their STAB moves. Substitute isn't entirely missed, as you'll often get hit with toxic on the switch anyway, when switching in on a passive hazard setter. Moltres cannot outspeed Rotom and OHKO Infernape, but you should have switch ins to Rotom anyway, like Blissey and Quagsire. The defense investment allows you to almost always avoid the 2HKO from adamant LO Mamoswine. Because you're slower than it, it can't EQ on a predicted roost.

Both Mega Bro sets can OHKO Lucario, with the first set sacrificing pp and accuracy, and the second sacrificing bulk. Like Moltres, Slowbro resists both of Lucario's and Infernape's STAB moves, and OHKOs them both. You can run the more standard 252 / 76+ / 180 spread, but you won't be guaranteed to OHKO Infernape or Lucario.

Mantine can't OHKO Lucario or Infernape, but it can use haze to prevent the 2 from overwhelming it. You can use air slash with either EV spread to beat Celebi more easily. The EV spread mostly depends on what else you need Mantine for.

Last but not least, Crobat. It outspeeds the relevant threats, hazes their boosts away, and avoids the 2HKO from their attacks. It can then toxic stall Infernape and 2HKO Lucario with heat wave. Heat wave is for Scizor, but if your team already deals with Scizor well, you can use brave bird to OHKO Infernape and Mega Beedrill. Toxic is mostly for sub Suicune, which you bypass with infiltrator. If that's not a threat, you can use brave bird in conjunction with heat wave and a jolly nature (the latter still 2HKOs Scizor). Overall, it is fairly customizable.

You should have noticed that there are no Latias checks here... that's because it's fairly difficult for stall to deal with, even with Pyukumuku (because of rolls with the dual STAB set, and the electrium z set cleanly 2HKOing it with gigavolt havoc into thunderbolt). Blissey is 2HKOed by LO Psyshock, and electrium z Latias beats Aggron if you have to switch in on it. There are some ways of dealing with it, but I feel like that would be getting a bit too off-topic

Tl;dr Stall would remain as powerful as it is even if Pyukumuku were banned.
 
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justdrew

is an official Team Rateris a Top Tutor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a defending SCL Champion
PUPL Champion
This thread has essentially been bored users throwing stones at council and waiting for October drops. C'mon peoples let's just leave them alone. They have done a great job this generation and there is literally nothing of use they can do as of this moment. The stall suspect, like the Mega Altaria and Scizor suspect, was a valiant effort by the community but ultimately a waste of time. Something as intertwined with the tier as those three can never be banned, bar significant meta-game changes.

In response to Mysil's post about Mimikyu being broken I have written a research paper, enjoy. Mimikyu is literally no different than Scizor at it's core. For example. A well played Scizor is guaranteed 1-6 kills in any given game. Scizor's weight in a matchup depends largely on its set because depending on the Scizor set and its check on the opposing team, it could end up being useless. This also applies to Mimikyu. Mimikyu's weight in a matchup depends largely on its set. If you are not Wood Hammer and you face stall, it's useless. If you are LSF and you face a bulky Steel-type, it's useless. If you're Life Orb and not Ghostium Z, you miss out on killing bulky Steel-types in certain scenarios and may face Rocky Helmet damage from Amoonguss or Hippowdon. Clearly it's to a lesser extent of Scizor but the principle remains the same.

As a journalism major the importance of using evidence to back up claims has been violently bashed into my skull so we will get to the fun part now! Mimikyu has made five appearances in SSD, all of which I will analyze because I finished all my homework this week and I am chillin'.

1st Appearance (Christo vs. robjr pattern emerges):
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-454269
All Mimikyu does in this replay is get a free switch and kill Krookodile. It is then forced out by Florges. If you are a set up sweeper that is forced out by Florges because you're too weak to set up and kill Mega Aerodactyl with a priority move, are you really broken? Mimikyu's defensive utility and ability to set up on things pales in comparison to Scizor.

2nd Appearance (Christo vs. ht do you see the pattern?):
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-455371
In this replay Christo makes an intelligent and aggressive play, switching in Mimikyu and using its ability to force out Mega Altaria. (Got lazy so) Mmq deals 29% to Rhyperior with a Life Orb Play Rough and is forced out. This exact same sequence is repeated 9 turns later. Mmq later wins the game because Infernape is forced to choice lock itself into CC to kill Maero and ht's only optimal switch in, Tenta, is asleep. So the question we must ask is, does that showcase Mmqs power and potential broken qualities? In my opinion, no. Mmq just won based on the circumstances of the game as any sweeper would have.

3rd Appearance (Accelgor vs. Adaam two humble champions duking it out):
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-456282
Mmq makes its appearance in this replay when it gets a free entry on a .5 Spa Latias at 3%. Accelgor switches into Rhyperior understanding that a Swords Dance is free and that Rhyperior will take a hit, preserving Latias as a sack for endgame. He reveals Rock Blast which is a very simple tech for Mmq. Accelgor breaks disquise, sacks Latias, and switches into Sharpedo which resists Shadow Sneak and takes nothing. This replay displays multiple qualities of Mmq. Firstly it needed to come in on a weakened Latias to set up. Secondly it is not difficult to counter offensively. And lastly it did 47% to a regular Sharpedo with +2 Life Orb Shadow Sneak which is frankly nothing.

4th Appearance (Christo vs. Corazan the pattern has now smacked you in the face):
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-455995
Christo brings Mmq for the third time. While Scizor, a common sweeper, plays a role throughout the entire game, Mmq only enters the battle at the very end. This is a testament to its fragility and one dimensional style. Mega Sharpedo misses Ice Fang in this match which was unfortunate but did not actually affect the end game. Mmq needed +3 to kill Mega Aerodactyl with Shadow Sneak and this was not possible as Hippowdon was Rocky Helmet. The fact that a set up sweeper needs to take two turns for set up to kill a not bulky offensive Pokemon is a clear sign that it is not broken, over centralizing, or any dangerous quality that will affect the stability of the tier.

5th Appearance (Lycans vs. Indigo Plateau let's give some love to IP, what an amazing person):
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-458189
Mmq enters this game to force Maero out which is a pattern we've seen throughout this analysis. It is trapped losing its ability and rendering it useless.

All the Mmq's were LO which is a reflection of its lack of immediate power. No Mmq played a central role in the players victory if they were victorious. Multiple techs were presented as viable ways of dealing with Mmq. It was only used in two ways, coming in to force a Pokemon out if it had the assurance it would maintain its ability and attempting to sweep at the end of the game.

In conclusion, Mimikyu is a one dimensional Pokemon that lacks the coverage options, strength, and defensive utility to make it enough of a threat to the security of the tier that it needs to be suspected or banned. Mimikyu can usually only come in if a Pokemon has weakened attack or is locked into a move that yields little damage. Once hit, it is very easy to revenge kill so Mimikyu can only switch in well if its ability can remain intact. Its impact in a match is largely concentrated in one area limiting its power and influence. As I mentioned before, a well played Mimikyu can wreak havoc in a matchup and can be quite useful. Mimikyu is a very good Pokemon and I do not denounce its usage, I just find a suspect to be flat out stupid.

FREE KELDEO & HAVE A GOOD NIGHT OR PLEASANT MORNING EUROPEANS OR WHOEVER!!!!
 
This also applies to Mimikyu. Mimikyu's weight in a matchup depends largely on its set. If you are not Wood Hammer and you face stall, it's useless. If you are LSF and you face a bulky Steel-type, it's useless. If you're Life Orb and not Ghostium Z, you miss out on killing bulky Steel-types in certain scenarios and may face Rocky Helmet damage from Amoonguss or Hippowdon. Clearly it's to a lesser extent of Scizor but the principle remains the same.
My claim was that if you dont have aggron, mlix or bulky sciz u have to pick a Sack. Seems to me like you agree with that statement from what I can See here? Except that you say "bulky steel type". Also the Checks didnt change depending on the Set. Both times the answer was bulky steel (Except the Stall MU) so I dont really get the scizor comparison.
 

justdrew

is an official Team Rateris a Top Tutor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a defending SCL Champion
PUPL Champion
In the replays there were two scenarios in which a non bulky Steel-type (Hippowdon and Rhyperior) were able to handle Mimikyu successfully. This is a case where Mimikyu having Wood Hammer mattered. You only include Mega Steelix, Mega Aggron, and Scizor in the list of bulky Steel-types when there is also Cobalion, Klefki, Stakataka and Doublade which eats a Shadow Claw. You propose that if you don’t have a certain list of Pokémon (a list which I expanded) you have to sack a Pokémon. Is this not just the reality of facing an offensive sweeper? Granted, Ghost-typing is amazingly offensively but coupled with Mimikyu’s strength, it is not hard to switch into. Through my replays I showcased how Mimikyu does not possess to strength to break with a Swords Dance making it very predictable. It is not hard to pivot into something that can stomach a hit, break it’s Disguise, and RKO next turn.

Your argument is essentially that if you don’t have a Mimikyu check you have to sack a Pokémon. This argument can be made for any sweeper. You specify that only three bulky Steel-types can be Mimikyu checks which I think I’ve proven to be untrue. Mimikyu’s value as an offensive Ghost-type is countered by its weak attack and need for a Swords Dance. Mimikyu can only come in on a small list of things and as such is very easy to not let in. I think I’ve made a solid case for why Mimikyu is on an island 9,999,999 miles away from broken and should be left alone. :blobthumbsup:
 
In the replays there were two scenarios in which a non bulky Steel-type (Hippowdon and Rhyperior) were able to handle Mimikyu successfully. This is a case where Mimikyu having Wood Hammer mattered. You only include Mega Steelix, Mega Aggron, and Scizor in the list of bulky Steel-types when there is also Cobalion, Klefki, Stakataka and Doublade which eats a Shadow Claw. You propose that if you don’t have a certain list of Pokémon (a list which I expanded) you have to sack a Pokémon. Is this not just the reality of facing an offensive sweeper? Granted, Ghost-typing is amazingly offensively but coupled with Mimikyu’s strength, it is not hard to switch into. Through my replays I showcased how Mimikyu does not possess to strength to break with a Swords Dance making it very predictable. It is not hard to pivot into something that can stomach a hit, break it’s Disguise, and RKO next turn.

Your argument is essentially that if you don’t have a Mimikyu check you have to sack a Pokémon. This argument can be made for any sweeper. You specify that only three bulky Steel-types can be Mimikyu checks which I think I’ve proven to be untrue. Mimikyu’s value as an offensive Ghost-type is countered by its weak attack and need for a Swords Dance. Mimikyu can only come in on a small list of things and as such is very easy to not let in. I think I’ve made a solid case for why Mimikyu is on an island 9,999,999 miles away from broken and should be left alone. :blobthumbsup:
A hard Switch out into Cobalion klefki and doublade is a Sack. They will die to +2 claw into sneak. I will admit to stakataka although that mon is utter Garbage. Staying in to break the disguise with whatever mon u have in also a Sack. The differense between mmq and other sd sweepers is that a hard Switch into a slower mon lets it get to +4 and faster mons die to +2. Lets say u hard into manectric on scizor as it SDs that's not the same as going hard into cobalion on a mmq sd. U will lose coba in one scenario and scizor will have gained absolutely nothing vs manectric. I dont think mmq is broken in a vaccum because of the thing u mention, but on spikestack HO it is such a complete Monster. Any HO without mmq is at this point worse than any HO with mmq because the insurance vs setup sweepers is invaluable. Im not staying there isnt counterplay like Rock blast rhyp and whirwind hippo (although whirwind hippo Just postpones the Problem) but I personally hate the thing and I think its a lazy and uncompetive shit mon to use exclusively good on mindless playstyles and it makes the Tier worse by a shitton.
 

watermess

What? Never seen an idiot before?
is a Tutoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Discord Contributor Alumnus
A hard Switch out into Cobalion klefki and doublade is a Sack. They will die to +2 claw into sneak. I will admit to stakataka although that mon is utter Garbage. Staying in to break the disguise with whatever mon u have in also a Sack. The differense between mmq and other sd sweepers is that a hard Switch into a slower mon lets it get to +4 and faster mons die to +2. Lets say u hard into manectric on scizor as it SDs that's not the same as going hard into cobalion on a mmq sd. U will lose coba in one scenario and scizor will have gained absolutely nothing vs manec
This is an interesting point you pick up here, firstly I would like point out that in order for mimikyu to be a huge issue for a team to revenge then one or 2 of several things need to happen.

- mku user plays very well and is able to chip revenge killers into sneak range

-other player plays poorly and does not keep mimiyku in mind, leaving an open door.

-other player does not have structurally sound team and gets rolled by Mimi in the late game

I would like to point out that every single one of these possibilities starts and ends with a fully competitive enabling reason that can be altered by teambuilding and in game plays!

I'm gonna have to side with itsjustdrew on this one
"Mimikyu is on an island 9,999,999 miles away from broken and should be left alone"

Imo it makes little difference if it can claim a Mon every time provided certain Mons don't exist - we have plenty of stuff that this statement fits far better in UU such as crawdaunt, lucario and primarina to name a few! You have to remember that in the lategame when Mimi will be most likely trying to do something, often one your opponents Pokémon with also be impossible for your team to guard against, so it balances out, sure in a vacuum Mimi is good, but in 6v6 let's face it, it gets one chance to do something and then everything just kills it in return.

Don't get mad at me I'm just trying to contribute to a discussion that I have an opinion on
:blobthumbsup:
 
This thread has essentially been bored users throwing stones at council and waiting for October drops. C'mon peoples let's just leave them alone. They have done a great job this generation and there is literally nothing of use they can do as of this moment. The stall suspect, like the Mega Altaria and Scizor suspect, was a valiant effort by the community but ultimately a waste of time. Something as intertwined with the tier as those three can never be banned, bar significant meta-game changes.

In response to Mysil's post about Mimikyu being broken I have written a research paper, enjoy. Mimikyu is literally no different than Scizor at it's core. For example. A well played Scizor is guaranteed 1-6 kills in any given game. Scizor's weight in a matchup depends largely on its set because depending on the Scizor set and its check on the opposing team, it could end up being useless. This also applies to Mimikyu. Mimikyu's weight in a matchup depends largely on its set. If you are not Wood Hammer and you face stall, it's useless. If you are LSF and you face a bulky Steel-type, it's useless. If you're Life Orb and not Ghostium Z, you miss out on killing bulky Steel-types in certain scenarios and may face Rocky Helmet damage from Amoonguss or Hippowdon. Clearly it's to a lesser extent of Scizor but the principle remains the same.

As a journalism major the importance of using evidence to back up claims has been violently bashed into my skull so we will get to the fun part now! Mimikyu has made five appearances in SSD, all of which I will analyze because I finished all my homework this week and I am chillin'.

1st Appearance (Christo vs. robjr pattern emerges):
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-454269
All Mimikyu does in this replay is get a free switch and kill Krookodile. It is then forced out by Florges. If you are a set up sweeper that is forced out by Florges because you're too weak to set up and kill Mega Aerodactyl with a priority move, are you really broken? Mimikyu's defensive utility and ability to set up on things pales in comparison to Scizor.

2nd Appearance (Christo vs. ht do you see the pattern?):
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-455371
In this replay Christo makes an intelligent and aggressive play, switching in Mimikyu and using its ability to force out Mega Altaria. (Got lazy so) Mmq deals 29% to Rhyperior with a Life Orb Play Rough and is forced out. This exact same sequence is repeated 9 turns later. Mmq later wins the game because Infernape is forced to choice lock itself into CC to kill Maero and ht's only optimal switch in, Tenta, is asleep. So the question we must ask is, does that showcase Mmqs power and potential broken qualities? In my opinion, no. Mmq just won based on the circumstances of the game as any sweeper would have.

3rd Appearance (Accelgor vs. Adaam two humble champions duking it out):
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-456282
Mmq makes its appearance in this replay when it gets a free entry on a .5 Spa Latias at 3%. Accelgor switches into Rhyperior understanding that a Swords Dance is free and that Rhyperior will take a hit, preserving Latias as a sack for endgame. He reveals Rock Blast which is a very simple tech for Mmq. Accelgor breaks disquise, sacks Latias, and switches into Sharpedo which resists Shadow Sneak and takes nothing. This replay displays multiple qualities of Mmq. Firstly it needed to come in on a weakened Latias to set up. Secondly it is not difficult to counter offensively. And lastly it did 47% to a regular Sharpedo with +2 Life Orb Shadow Sneak which is frankly nothing.

4th Appearance (Christo vs. Corazan the pattern has now smacked you in the face):
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-455995
Christo brings Mmq for the third time. While Scizor, a common sweeper, plays a role throughout the entire game, Mmq only enters the battle at the very end. This is a testament to its fragility and one dimensional style. Mega Sharpedo misses Ice Fang in this match which was unfortunate but did not actually affect the end game. Mmq needed +3 to kill Mega Aerodactyl with Shadow Sneak and this was not possible as Hippowdon was Rocky Helmet. The fact that a set up sweeper needs to take two turns for set up to kill a not bulky offensive Pokemon is a clear sign that it is not broken, over centralizing, or any dangerous quality that will affect the stability of the tier.

5th Appearance (Lycans vs. Indigo Plateau let's give some love to IP, what an amazing person):
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-458189
Mmq enters this game to force Maero out which is a pattern we've seen throughout this analysis. It is trapped losing its ability and rendering it useless.

All the Mmq's were LO which is a reflection of its lack of immediate power. No Mmq played a central role in the players victory if they were victorious. Multiple techs were presented as viable ways of dealing with Mmq. It was only used in two ways, coming in to force a Pokemon out if it had the assurance it would maintain its ability and attempting to sweep at the end of the game.

In conclusion, Mimikyu is a one dimensional Pokemon that lacks the coverage options, strength, and defensive utility to make it enough of a threat to the security of the tier that it needs to be suspected or banned. Mimikyu can usually only come in if a Pokemon has weakened attack or is locked into a move that yields little damage. Once hit, it is very easy to revenge kill so Mimikyu can only switch in well if its ability can remain intact. Its impact in a match is largely concentrated in one area limiting its power and influence. As I mentioned before, a well played Mimikyu can wreak havoc in a matchup and can be quite useful. Mimikyu is a very good Pokemon and I do not denounce its usage, I just find a suspect to be flat out stupid.

FREE KELDEO & HAVE A GOOD NIGHT OR PLEASANT MORNING EUROPEANS OR WHOEVER!!!!
Usually not one to try to dissect new users opinions of the UU tier or it's pokemon, but I found this Mimikyu analysis to be especially questionable. Since three of my games were analyzed I will respond to those:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-454269
G1: Mimikyu does not simply come in on a free switch and kill Krookodile. Due to Mimikyu's ability, Krookodile was forced to stay in and attack. This distinction is significant because it exposes the nature of Mimikyu as a pokemon. If a team lacks Unaware or a healthy Steel type the opponent is forced to stay in and sack in order to prevent a free SD with Disguise still intact. On top of this, Mimikyu was not forced out by Florges, but rather I took the opportunity to setup an SD with Scizor to secure the victory. Mimikyu comfortably beats defensive Florges with two +2 Play Roughs or 1 +4 Play Rough. Moonblast does around 45% lol. Basic damage calculations(or mental math) would show this, as well as the fact that +4 Shadow Sneak kills Aerodactyl after Stealth Rock. Frankly, this analysis could not be farther from the truth.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-455371
G2: This game shows another matchup where a reasonable looking team gets ravaged by Mimikyu. itsjustdrew claims that the Mimikyu sweep could have been pulled off by any set up sweeper in the tier. Apart from this being a ridiculous claim, it could not be farther from the truth due to Mimikyu's typing. Disguise + being immune to 3 typings is something no other pokemon possesses. This combination not only has the ability to setup 2 SDs for free, but forces the opponent to limit the use of Dragon, Fighting, and Normal attacks throughout the match.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-455995
G3: itsjustdrew inaccurately describes why bringing in Mimikyu in the end game is done. It is not due to it being one dimensional or frail, but because access to a free SD on a Life Orb Pokemon with perfect STAB coverage is threatening to any team in the end game(assuming any chip has been done to the opposing team). Similarly, itsjustdrew harps on the idea that Mimikyu needs more than one SD in order to kill Mega Aero, although if Icy Wind hit then Mimikyu was comfortably in range of +2. +2 Mimikyu also 2HKOs Hippo, meaning it is never a switch in to Mimikyu.

Mimikyu on paper is objectively broken, although what keeps it from being banned is its lack of splashability. It is not easy to simply throw Mimikyu on to any squad unless it is Hyper Offense or a balance team where there are other counters to common dragon types. This means Mimikyu only fits on two types of teams, which is quite limiting, although to argue it is overpowered in the UU tier is still up for debate.

However, the reason I felt the need to respond to this is because posts like this are misleading to lurkers, who are the majority of the playerbase.
 
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sanguine

friendly fire
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This thread has essentially been bored users throwing stones at council and waiting for October drops. C'mon peoples let's just leave them alone. They have done a great job this generation and there is literally nothing of use they can do as of this moment. The stall suspect, like the Mega Altaria and Scizor suspect, was a valiant effort by the community but ultimately a waste of time. Something as intertwined with the tier as those three can never be banned, bar significant meta-game changes.
This is a completely fallacious argument. Just because they are intertwined with the tier doesn’t mean they have to be or even should be. Yes, I agree council has generally done a good job over the course of the generation. However, they haven’t been perfect. Criticism of council does not equal complete derision of the job they have performed. It simply means that people have found that they have made a mistake in their current course of action regarding the “stall suspect” and they are using their public platform to voice as such. (Sidenote: Calling the ideas pokeisfun brought up as a stall suspect is a complete and total misrepresentation of his arguments. He wanted one of blissey or alomomola suspected, not stall as a playstyle. Calling this a stall suspect has led to many, many players being misinformed about the topic at hand, which quite frankly wastes everyone’s time when we have to explain the terminology actually means suspecting one of Blissey / Alomomola.)


In response to Mysil's post about Mimikyu being broken I have written a research paper, enjoy. Mimikyu is literally no different than Scizor at it's core. For example. A well played Scizor is guaranteed 1-6 kills in any given game. Scizor's weight in a matchup depends largely on its set because depending on the Scizor set and its check on the opposing team, it could end up being useless. This also applies to Mimikyu. Mimikyu's weight in a matchup depends largely on its set. If you are not Wood Hammer and you face stall, it's useless. If you are LSF and you face a bulky Steel-type, it's useless. If you're Life Orb and not Ghostium Z, you miss out on killing bulky Steel-types in certain scenarios and may face Rocky Helmet damage from Amoonguss or Hippowdon. Clearly it's to a lesser extent of Scizor but the principle remains the same.

As a journalism major the importance of using evidence to back up claims has been violently bashed into my skull so we will get to the fun part now! Mimikyu has made five appearances in SSD, all of which I will analyze because I finished all my homework this week and I am chillin'
I would like to point out the fact that at no point ever did Mysil ever mention Wood Hammer. This point is essentially moot because of the simple fact that no one uses Wood Hammer or LSF. The fact that you think there’s viability to that undermines your shaky credibility even more in my eyes. Mimikyu is simply different than other traditional sweepers in that it consistently limits counterplay into either “go into uber fat mon and hope it’s life orb” or “pray I can break disguise before I’m in a situation that gives Mimikyu a free SD” with literally no in betweens. Comparisons to Scizor or anybody else are pointless because they do not play in the same way that MMQ does. Other sweepers don’t essentially get free SDs or revenge kills on the opposing team with only a modicum of effort. Other sweepers don’t limit counterplay ingame to this extent. I could go on for hours but you should get the point. Mimikyu has limitations. It has drawbacks and flaws, but those flaws are essentially moot in comparison to the large pros in using Mimikyu. It may not break walls, but it breaks them just enough for teammates to respond. It may not win every game, but there’s some solid builds that just lose even if they’ve covered every other threat well, and that’s the problem with MMQ.


1st Appearance (Christo vs. robjr pattern emerges):
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-454269
All Mimikyu does in this replay is get a free switch and kill Krookodile. It is then forced out by Florges. If you are a set up sweeper that is forced out by Florges because you're too weak to set up and kill Mega Aerodactyl with a priority move, are you really broken? Mimikyu's defensive utility and ability to set up on things pales in comparison to Scizor.
As Christo mentioned, it forces the death of Krookodile. Any swap as Christo SDs here means instant loss. This is a 50/50 more than anything. Additionally Christo went Scizor on the Florges because as the rest of the game shows, Scizor had the correct moves to just win the game. This has nothing to do with Mimikyu’s weakness or whatever. This is all to do with finding the quickest, most optimal way to win, which happened to be Scizor.


2nd Appearance (Christo vs. ht do you see the pattern?):
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-455371
In this replay Christo makes an intelligent and aggressive play, switching in Mimikyu and using its ability to force out Mega Altaria. (Got lazy so) Mmq deals 29% to Rhyperior with a Life Orb Play Rough and is forced out. This exact same sequence is repeated 9 turns later. Mmq later wins the game because Infernape is forced to choice lock itself into CC to kill Maero and ht's only optimal switch in, Tenta, is asleep. So the question we must ask is, does that showcase Mmqs power and potential broken qualities? In my opinion, no. Mmq just won based on the circumstances of the game as any sweeper would have.
This sequence of Play Roughs led directly into Aerodactyl being able to kill Rhyperior on the switch with EQ, which in turn leads to the CC lock later which led to MMQ winning the game. Mimikyu had everything to do with this game’s result if you would just look a little closer.


3rd Appearance (Accelgor vs. Adaam two humble champions duking it out):
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-456282
Mmq makes its appearance in this replay when it gets a free entry on a .5 Spa Latias at 3%. Accelgor switches into Rhyperior understanding that a Swords Dance is free and that Rhyperior will take a hit, preserving Latias as a sack for endgame. He reveals Rock Blast which is a very simple tech for Mmq. Accelgor breaks disquise, sacks Latias, and switches into Sharpedo which resists Shadow Sneak and takes nothing. This replay displays multiple qualities of Mmq. Firstly it needed to come in on a weakened Latias to set up. Secondly it is not difficult to counter offensively. And lastly it did 47% to a regular Sharpedo with +2 Life Orb Shadow Sneak which is frankly nothing.
Mimikyu chipping rhyperior like that was an important part of Adaam’s win scenario, which has Swampert + Aero + RotomH applying enough pressure on Accelgor’s team to where one of those three eventually wins out once Shark megas and switches out. This obviously didn’t happen but saying MMQ did nothing in this game is completely absurd.
4th Appearance (Christo vs. Corazan the pattern has now smacked you in the face):
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-455995
Christo brings Mmq for the third time. While Scizor, a common sweeper, plays a role throughout the entire game, Mmq only enters the battle at the very end. This is a testament to its fragility and one dimensional style. Mega Sharpedo misses Ice Fang in this match which was unfortunate but did not actually affect the end game. Mmq needed +3 to kill Mega Aerodactyl with Shadow Sneak and this was not possible as Hippowdon was Rocky Helmet. The fact that a set up sweeper needs to take two turns for set up to kill a not bulky offensive Pokemon is a clear sign that it is not broken, over centralizing, or any dangerous quality that will affect the stability of the tier.
You do notice how Aerodactyl and Hippowdon could’ve been put in range if Froslass got the Icy Wind off, right? Icy wind hitting there means it gets at least one spike, and assuming the game goes similarly, that spike puts Hippowdon into range to where MMQ wins, not discounting the fact that MMQ did not even need those things considering it had a not insignificant chance of killing Hippowdon (31.3%) right there and then cleaning Aerodactyl up with Shadow Sneak. The fact that christo got unlucky early and still had a decent shot of winning with MMQ should be a + for it, not a negative.

5th Appearance (Lycans vs. Indigo Plateau let's give some love to IP, what an amazing person):
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7uu-458189
Mmq enters this game to force Maero out which is a pattern we've seen throughout this analysis. It is trapped losing its ability and rendering it useless.
My guy, Play Rough was disabled. I don’t see how bad RNG rendering MMQ useless is a point in any direction, never mind yours.


All the Mmq's were LO which is a reflection of its lack of immediate power. No Mmq played a central role in the players victory if they were victorious. Multiple techs were presented as viable ways of dealing with Mmq. It was only used in two ways, coming in to force a Pokemon out if it had the assurance it would maintain its ability and attempting to sweep at the end of the game.

In conclusion, Mimikyu is a one dimensional Pokemon that lacks the coverage options, strength, and defensive utility to make it enough of a threat to the security of the tier that it needs to be suspected or banned. Mimikyu can usually only come in if a Pokemon has weakened attack or is locked into a move that yields little damage. Once hit, it is very easy to revenge kill so Mimikyu can only switch in well if its ability can remain intact. Its impact in a match is largely concentrated in one area limiting its power and influence. As I mentioned before, a well played Mimikyu can wreak havoc in a matchup and can be quite useful. Mimikyu is a very good Pokemon and I do not denounce its usage, I just find a suspect to be flat out stupid.
The MMQs were LO because the teams all had better, more effective users of Z-Moves within the context of the team. This doesn’t show jack shit. Being passed over for a Z slot for Latias (indisputably the best user of Z crystals in the tier), Roserade (who is pretty unviable without it), and Rocks Krook on a team that actually needed the Scizor lure is nothing against Mimikyu.

In conclusion, MMQ forces one dimensional counterplay and places a large amount of pressure on offensive and defensive teams alike. This “once hit, its easy to revenge kill line” is blatantly missing the point. MMQ players only let themselves get hit when they know they can do it and be in an advantageous position to trade hits or clean up. MMQ rarely is just “hit” as you say without some large amount of consolation to compensate. I don’t see anything in these replays to think anything short of “RNG and total dogshit matchup in Adaam’s case were the only things reslly stopping MMQ from really just breaking down walls or revenge killing things for free or freely chipping things for teammates. As someone who aspires to be a journalist, looking at how and why things happen within the context, not just what happened is an extremely important part of the picture. A part that you seem to have overlooked.


Have a wonderful day.
 
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Moutemoute

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This point is essentially moot because of the simple fact that no one uses Wood Hammer
:puff:
Actually, more and more players on the ladder are using Wood Hammer on LO Mimikyu because it's a good alternative to Shadow Claw and a good way to pressure bulky Pokemon. While I can't say if it's trend or something which gonna be a staple, I do believe that it's not a option that "on one uses".
 
Mew is here and back in business. Luckily Mewium Z was banned prior so we dont need to deal with that mess but damn. Also spikes offense and stall pushed Froslass and Quagsire usage respectively on the final shift of gen 7, thoughts?
 

Sage

From the River To the Sea
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So, Mew ended up dropping and we did not get our savior Keldeo D:

As unfortunate as that may be here's some speculation on what Mew could be feasibly running, take it with a grain of salt as usual with anything formed purely on paper. I personally think Mew is going to be at least decent and help curb some of the ease with which stall / fat can be picked. EVs and stuff are mostly filler but Mew's speed tier is quite good so I think you are going to have to justify losing out on benchmarks like Hydreigon and Mimikyu, even on sets where most you can do is status or Taunt them.

Mew @ Colbur Berry / Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off / Seismic Toss / Psyshock
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp / Toxic
- Soft-Boiled

A pretty simple status spreader, this I think will be the flagship unique set with Celebi being competition for Nasty Plot. Burning will be overall much safer than Toxic since Steel-types wont be able to switch into you as easily, but I can see needing to punish stuff like Roost Hydreigon more heavily. Pretty much an upgraded form of Jellicent (RIP the legend).

Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Seismic Toss / Knock Off / Psyshock
- Taunt / Dazzling Gleam
- Defog / Stealth Rock
- Soft-Boiled

This is my best guess for how a Defog set would work, you'll have Taunt to prevent Rocks from going up again, and you can compress some of the fat breaking with Seismic Toss + Taunt combined with hazards support. Alternatively you can set Rocks yourself, Taunt still being very useful for this role. Dazzling Gleam would be a good tech on Rocks for Defog Hydreigon, I think you can also run Status / Rocks / Recovery / Attack but didn't want to slash any more moves lol. This mon can do anything.

Mew @ Psychium Z / Life Orb
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Psyshock
- Flamethrower
- Giga Drain / Aura Sphere / Soft-Boiled / Taunt

Has some advantages over Celebi with access to Psyshock and Fire coverage, the last move will be pretty flexible for your own needs. Giga Drain lets you get through Quagsire and Alomomola with much less trouble. Aura Sphere helps the offense MU covering Hydreigon and safely dispatching AV Bisharp, while Soft-Boiled has longevity and Taunt can grant more setup opportunities.

Mew @ Life Orb
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Zen Headbutt
- Sucker Punch
- Fire Punch

This one's probably not going to be very common or even good, but the idea was funny at least. Sucker Punch is nice for nailing Latias trying to revenge kill you expecting a Nasty Plot or support set, as well as being Mew's best form of priority. Will almost certainly be worse than NP however.

Mew has a ton of options not covered here in Calm Mind, Tailwind, Scarf, U-turn, etc, have some fun with it. I think it'll be a good addition to the meta.
 
Clearly, some council members do make tiering decisions based on how they affect lower tiers. The input from other council members within the last several pages of the np thread shows that council is more prepared to move forward with suspect tests which have lower tiering impact. From the previous page:

Hogg on Mola:
[It] would be a relatively low impact ban if the community deemed it unhealthy. Only a handful of non-stall teams would be affected, stall itself would continue to be viable as a playstyle (as evidenced by some of the non-Mola teams pif posted here) and no other lower tiers would get caught in the thresher of a reckless tiering decision from the tier above them. (emph mine)
Misa on Pyukumuku:
The following [argument] rose up among those who did not support further action on Pyukumuku: [...] Banning Pyukumuku will heavily affect lower tiers.
There are other reasons why a Quagsire suspect may or may not be a good idea, but the above two quotes previously did not apply to Quagsire, and now they do. With that in mind, I think it makes sense to revisit the idea of a Quagsire suspect.
 

Kink

it's a thug life ¨̮
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[20:15:55] @kink¨̮: 8:00 PM] [to a lesser extent] kink: since when have we ever weighed a decision based on how it would affect any of the lower tiers? and I don't mean in concept, I mean in practise.
[20:15:55] @kink¨̮: [8:01 PM] [to a lesser extent] kink: and I don't mean us individually, I mean whether or not to decide to suspect a mon.
[20:16:05] @kink¨̮: 8:02 PM] [to a lesser extent] kink: literally, see ORAS UU and baton pass
[20:16:06] @kink¨̮: [8:02 PM] [to a lesser extent] kink: We have always taken steps to preserve the integrity of our tier, and have never allowed the "effect on other tiers" to cloud our judgement
[20:16:15] @kink¨̮: 8:04 PM] [to a lesser extent] kink: so I think it's a bit misleading to suggest that we would give two hecks to suspect quag or pyuku because it wouldn't affect lower tiers... maybe a single heck, but not two.
...
[20:18:21] @kink¨̮: and fwiw
[20:18:23] @kink¨̮: I'm sure loads of us
[20:18:27] @kink¨̮: even myself included
[20:18:32] @kink¨̮: have PERSONALLY weighed in on a suspect vote
[20:18:36] @kink¨̮: and have had our biases
[20:18:39] @kink¨̮: and love for other tiers
[20:18:45] @kink¨̮: somehow, like a bit affect our vote
[20:18:46] @kink¨̮: sure
[20:18:48] @kink¨̮: I'll give you that
[20:18:59] @kink¨̮: but in terms of concept, to actually decide whether or not a mon is going to be suspected
[20:19:14] @kink¨̮: I don't feel like it's fair to suggest that beyond the "avoid being reckless bit" we actually give two hecks
[20:19:17] @kink¨̮: maybe a single heck
[20:19:26] *Mengy ㋛: yeah the single heck was a nice way of putting it
[20:20:06] @kink¨̮: I remember a big issue that was originaly discussed in ORAS
[20:20:11] @kink¨̮: was separating megas from their non megas
[20:20:18] @kink¨̮: in tiering
[20:20:19] *Mengy ㋛: ah yeah
[20:20:31] @kink¨̮: that was an example of trying to take a whole lot of pressure of of tier leaders
[20:20:34] @kink¨̮: to make tiering decisions
[20:20:40] @kink¨̮: Oras UU baton pass
[20:20:45] @kink¨̮: we literally gave no shits what any tier did
[20:20:52] @kink¨̮: like, as a concept, we said fuck ayuuuu to everyone

[20:17:44] @kink¨̮: 8:12 PM] [to a lesser extent] kink: as Jay Z once said
[20:17:45] @kink¨̮: [8:12 PM] [to a lesser extent] kink: I have 99 problems, but affecting lower tiers with my broken ass mon ain't one
[20:17:45] @kink¨̮: [8:13 PM] [to a lesser extent] kink: :shrug:
 

Moutemoute

Error 404
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Blissey @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Soft-Boiled
- Toxic
- Seismic Toss

Altaria-Mega @ Altarianite
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 248 HP / 204 Def / 56 Spe
Impish Nature
- Roost
- Heal Bell
- Return
- Flamethrower

Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 248 HP / 20 Def / 240 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Soft-Boiled
- Taunt
- Toxic
- Knock Off

Gligar @ Eviolite
Ability: Immunity
EVs: 248 HP / 200 Def / 60 SpD
Impish Nature
- Roost
- Defog
- Toxic
- Earthquake

Quagsire @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Recover
- Scald
- Earthquake
- Counter / Protect / Haze

Alomomola @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 136 HP / 252 Def / 120 SpD
Impish Nature
- Wish
- Protect
- Toxic
- Knock Off
Pretty straightforward Stall I made. Not the best thing we can make for sure but if players wanna try Stall with Mew then feel free to try it. Mew is more like a Stallbreaker but you can opt for Defog or even some weird trap set with Block. Speed on Mew allows it to outspeed Hydreigon. You can go with max speed if you want to tie with Celebi !
 

Jade

why are girls?
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I wasn't planning on posting here again, but can we talk about stallbreaker Mew for a second?

mew.gif

NYOOM GANG (Mew) @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 Spe
Timid Nature
- Knock Off/Seismic Toss
- Soft-Boiled
- Will-O-Wisp
- Taunt

I am throughly convinced that, at the moment, this is the best Mew set. Nasty Plot has massive 4MSS and suffers competition from Celebi, while Rocks and Defog sound okay but not exceptional or anything. Speed EVs are for max speed base 90s such as Moltres, though you can creep Hydreigon if you really want to. I prefer Knock Off to provide extra utility, but Seismic Toss is fine if you prefer wearing down your opponents quicker. Soft-Boiled is obviously for recovery, while Taunt completely shuts down mons like Pyukumuku, Quagsire, and more from Toxicing you or potentially setting up in Quagsire's case. Will-O-Wisp is preferred to burn steels like Mega Aggron, and also generally annoy physical attackers. A replay of this set is shown here, showing that it has decent utility even vs offense teams. In this replay, Mew is a general nuisance to Jacobikko's team, knocking off Marowak's thick club to make it much less of a threat. If I had hit the Wisp T1 it also would have nullified Tsareena from being a potential threat, since I scouted for Knock Off. Even the Pursuit trapper in Bisharp has trouble switching in due to the threat of Will-O-Wisp burning it. Speaking of Pursuit, Colbur can be used if you're paranoid about things like Scarf Krookodile, but Leftovers seems to be better for passive recovery.

As for potential cores, Mew + Facadeblast Altaria is probably my favorite one right now. One is a good anti-stall mon while another can be a good anti-offense mon. I definitely enjoy Mew from what I've tested so far and am looking forward to seeing it in the tier more.
 

Jaajgko

I will disband the soccer club
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Nasty Plot Mew seems like a really Big threat atm. The best set, imo, is Nasty Plot Psychic Z-Aura Sphere Soft Boiled. Thanks to its very good bulk it is able to setup on most bulky mons and can punish toxic with Synchronise. Offensively it is able to kill Scizor at +2 with relative ease and is only walled by Psychic Types with Calm Mind/Nasty Plot and by Doublade. To revenge kill it you either need a fast dark type like Houndoom Hydreigon or Krookodile (which actually need chip damage) which can be caught on the switch by an All-Out-Plumeling, and by other specific mons like Gengar and Scarf Scizor and by Sucker Punch from Bisharp. All of them dislike switching into it. And regarding the counters (Latias Celebi Slowbro Reuniclus Doublade Necrozma), they are all weak to pursuit (except for Slowbro). The main flaw from Mew is that is doesn't do much damage without a boost so unless it is facing a mon weak to Psychic it won't force switches that much, meaning that it will inevitably get chipped. Also, while Synchronise may punish Toxic, some mons like Gligar, Empoleon, Aggron or Blissey don't care at all. Lastly, because of its lack of power, it doesn't put as much pressure on the opponent as it theoretically should, meaning that the Mew user will often have to predict his opponent correctly to have it put in work. Thus, Mew seems to be a better Celebi that is either too advantageous for its user or simply rewards the better player.

Other sets are possible, like Nasty Plot 3 atk with wish Support or a wiki berry, bulky pivot with sr or defog or even stallbreaker as showcased by Juuno, though I think Nasty Plot sets are already really strong against stall teams, and it can be pp stalled.
 
There hasn't been as much discussion on Mew as I thought so I'm going to just post some of my thoughts on it and a few sets I deem decent on the Pokemon. Overall I think Mew is a great addition to the tier and can provide both offensive and defensive teams a lot of utility and role compression but not to an extent that makes it overbearing for the meta to deal with.



Mew @ Leftovers / Colbur Berry
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 240 HP / 232 SpD / 36 Spe
Careful Nature
- Seismic Toss / Knock Off
- Taunt / Will-O-Wisp / Toxic
- Defog / Stealth Rock
- Soft-Boiled


I think utility sets are the most effective sets on Mew right now as I've found it to be very easy to slot into a team to meet the required needs, whether it be the role of a hazard setter or remover. The combination of Seismic Toss and Taunt also let it to beat down pretty much any bulky wall like Empoleon, Mega Aggron, Amoonguss etc. I have been really liking SpD Mew on this set also because Mew is able to check Nidoqueen, Mega Manectric, Starmie, Mega Slowbro etc. Knock Off is also a decent option that lets it punish Scarf Hydreigon and Krookodile if you opt for Colbur Berry but this comes at the cost of some of its stallbreaking potential. This set has to forgo status in most cases so the needed Speed investment isn't that important and attempting to be a phys Def wall without Wisp really gives it issues as it loses to most of the Fighting-types anyway if they are at +2. If you do choose to drop Taunt then any of the status moves work well, in which case I would look to run more Speed investment to creep necessary stuff similar to the set Juuno posted above.


Mew @ Electrium Z / Fightinium Z
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Psyshock
- Thunderbolt / Aura Sphere
- Ice Beam / Rock Polish


Personally I am not a huge fan of offensive Mew because it has like the worst case of 4MSS I have ever seen. It wants the ability to fit like 6 moves on the set to break the necessary threats in the meta but it obviously can't do so, which leaves it reliant on a lot of team support. Nasty Plot Mew also faces a lot of competition with Celebi, which in almost every case I would rather resort to. Celebi having that secondary STAB move, better ability in Natural Cure etc. As for NP Mew itself, it functions more as a late-game sweeper but has some breaking potential only if it manages to get that boost off. I prefer running 3 Atks with Boltbeam to break through Mons like Gligar, Empoleon, Latias, and Mega Aggron. Electrium Z punishing most Steel-types bar MegaLix.

Fightinium Z Rock Polish sets are usable under dual screens making it harder to revenge kill and give it more opportunities to set up, but it has the issue of lacking the necessary coverage to punish the top Pokemon in the tier. NP will definitely have some influence on the tier but I can't see it being anything groundbreaking that Celebi can't already do. You can use Focus Miss if you want the power at the expense of always missing this move.

Worth noting that no matter what these sets will lose to Quagsire and in most cases SpD Pyukumuku. SpD Pyuku needs significant chip to drop to the Z and it is fairly easy for a good player to play around this and find the chance to status Mew with Toxic. So partner this with more ways to pressure stall.


Mew @ Leftovers / Colbur Berry
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 172 HP / 84 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Flamethrower / Knock Off
- U-turn
- Toxic / Will-O-Wisp / Thunder Wave
- Soft-Boiled


I have been enjoying using Mew as a fast pivot that can still provide utility to teams. This set is mainly focused on generating momentum and punish Pokemon like Latias and Celebi that commonly pivot into Mew due to them lacking the coverage to necessarily threaten them. In doing so I like partnering this set with Pursuit support from Scizor, Mega Aerodactyl or Krookodile. Toxic allows it to punish most of the defensive Mons that Mew can't threaten due to this set lacking Taunt. I prefer running this with Flamethrower so that Mew has a way to punish Steel-types most noticeably Scizor, the only one it misses out on is Empoleon I believe. Other alternatives include using Wisp + Knock which is just a strong combination for these less offensive sets and gives it a way to punish Tentacruel and Empoleon. The SpA EVs are for Scizor so if you choose Knock Off place them elsewhere.
 

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Would like to talk a bit about Mew and other recent trends I've seen on the ladder.


Mew @ Psychium Z / Fightinium Z / Groundium Z
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Psyshock
- Flamethrower / Aura Sphere / Earth Power
- Giga Drain / Dazzling Gleam / Taunt / Soft Boiled

Nasty Plot Mew is in my opinion a very interesting pick as it can act as a great stallbreaker thanks to Nasty Plot + Psyshock + Filler. The fact that it has such a large movepool allows it to pick its check which is kinda dope not gonna lie. While it can have an annoying 4 MSS, I do believe that Mew is as good as Nasty Plot Celebi (if not better) because Synchronize allows it to pressure Toxic users such as Alomomola, Quagsire, Pyukumuku etc.. which hates being badly poisonned.

I've been using a lot of NP Mew and while Psychium Z and Fightinium Z are great, I believe Groundium Z can be really nasty because it allows Celebi to nuke Steel-types effectively (and it also blast away Muk-Alola). Taunt or Soft Boiled are great options too and allows Mew to be more annoying for bulky archetypes. I also tried a core of Nasty Plot Mew + Nasty Plot Celebi and it was pretty nice since they break each others checks (you just have to run on one of them smth to break Steel-types and on the other one smth for Hydreigon) which is always nice.


Sharpedo-Mega @ Sharpedonite
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Protect
- Crunch
- Earthquake / Psychic Fangs
- Ice Fang

It's not "new" but Spikes Offense are a very strong archetype atm in UU. Mimikyu has provided to those teams a great anti-spinner but also a really nice check to "almost anything" thanks to Disguise. Some trends with Wood Hammer allows Mimikyu to lure things like Quagsire and Alomomola for Mega-Sharpedo which is dope for it.

I've also seen some Spikes HO with Mixed Hydro Pump Mega-Sharpedo which is a nightmare to deal with because it nukes Choice Scarf Krookodile (which is a decent check to Mega-Sharpedo). Hydro Pump also pressure things like Gligar, Hippowdon, Mamoswine and even Cobalion doesn't appreciate it. Overall Mega-Sharpedo is still a top threat in the tier.


Gligar @ Eviolite
Ability: Immunity
EVs: 248 HP / 200 Def / 60 SpD
Impish Nature
- Roost
- Defog / Toxic / Knock Off
- Curse
- Earthquake

Last but not least, I would like to talk about Curse Gligar which is a set which has gained in popularity. Mega-Altaria is most of the time DD Refresh or DD Facade which is an issue for Gligar because it can't anymore just Toxic and Roost Stall. However with Curse, Gligar becomes a great Pokemon to handle DD Mega-Altaria, SD Scizor, SD Mimikyu, SD Cobalion (which can break it otherwise with Steelium Z and/or lucky Iron Head's flinch). I do believe that Curse is a great option at the moment, especially to deal with HO Spikes since Gligar can Defog on some top threat thanks to Curse.

I do not remember the point of this spread (maybe it's actually a bad one but I've been using it for Curse Gligar for a while now so.. eh).
 

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