Metagame np: SM UU Stage 10.3 - Like Smoke (Mega Altaria remains UU)

[Hogg]

Scizor may rule UU with an iron claw, but 2019 has been the year of Altaria. While it has always been a top-tier mega, it started the year off particularly strong with a dominant showing in SPL, where it had a 60% win rate (higher than any other top-10 pokemon bar Scizor), including multiple games where it proved to win more or less single-handedly. Since then it has continued to take the tier by storm, shooting up to 15% ladder usage and firmly planting itself as the premier Mega Evolution in UU.

Though it is primarily seen as a late-game sweeper with Dragon Dance, the secret to Altaria’s success lies in its defenses. With a fantastic defensive typing, above-average 75/110/105 defenses and reliable recovery in Roost, Mega Altaria is surprisingly difficult to stop once it gets started. While its Speed tier is below average, very few Scarf users or faster pokemon have the ability to stop this fluffy cloud of destruction. And with most sets running moves like Refresh or Facade to further take advantage of more passive pokemon that rely on status to stop setup sweepers, Alt has very little difficulty in finding turns to set up. It has even proved to be an effective stallbreaker with its offensive Facade set, as Facade is a guaranteed 2HKO against Quagsire once Altaria is statused.

Furthermore, unlike most late-game sweepers, Mega Altaria’s good defensive utility and reliable recovery allows it to pull its weight throughout the game, checking top threats like Latias, Terrakion, Hydreigon and Infernape. It also has developed a strong niche on stall teams thanks to its access to utility moves such as Defog, Heal Bell and Perish Song and its ability to stop several troublesome stallbreakers in their tracks.

With so much going well for Mega Altaria, why hasn’t it come up for a ban before? Well, for the single biggest answer, take a look at the very top of the usage stats: Scizor, currently sitting at 43% usage, is the best check to almost every variety of Alt thanks to its powerful Bullet Punch. While there are only a scant few reliable defensive answers to DD Alt (Amoonguss, Mega Aggron, Doublade), Scizor’s omnipresence almost single-handedly keeps Altaria in check. Teams with Altaria often must rely on punishing Scizor with entry hazards and Rocky Helmet users or sometimes trapping it outright with Magneton to bypass the bug.

And so, we put it to the community: should Mega Altaria remain UU? This suspect test will operate similarly to the Scizor and Mega Sableye suspect tests. There will be no suspect ladder. Instead, the standard UU ladder will remain open. Those who wish to participate in this suspect test will instead use a fresh, suspect-specific alt. The requirements for the suspect will be as follows:

• All games must be played on the Pokemon Showdown! UU ladder on a fresh alt with the following format: "UUAS (Nick)." For example, I might register the alt UUAS Hogg to ladder with. You must meet the listed format in order to qualify.
• To qualify for voting, your alt must play a minimum of 45 games, and
• You must have a minimum GXE of 81.

That's it! You have until Sunday, July 7 at 11:59 PM GMT -4 to meet voting requirements. Feel free to post if you have any questions about the current suspect format. Happy laddering!

UU Council

Adaam
aim
Amane Misa
Eyan
Hogg
HT
Kink
Pak
Pearl
robjr
Sage
Shiba
TDK

 

[Taptricity]

 

[Nightingales]

Will post actual thoughts today but tl:dr; malt has like the best offensive typing in the meta and access to coverage which can smack some of the “counters” pretty good, I wouldn’t be sad to see it go especially since it wouldn’t actually make Latias broken

Less faeries = more dark types open to use = Latias might fear scarf krook again

 

[Bhris Brown]

Real quick

 

[Freeroamer]

An interesting suspect, curious why the conversation shifted from weathers to Altaria, was this always part of the plan? (No criticism intended)

In terms of building within the tier, Amoonguss usage takes a hit most probably, it’ll still be decent but being the best non steel DD Alt response means it’s lost a good niche. I would say Steels go down in usage but Latias will still force those onto every team, even though imo they’re less solid checks to her than they are to Altaria.

 

[mashonem]

Do I think MAlt is broken? No, I don't. Honestly, if it truly was, it would have been banned a while ago. Hell, it was only a year ago that Hydreigon was considered S tier while MAlt was hanging around in A rank.

Would the tier be better off if MAlt weren't here? That's another, more difficult question to answer. Unlike the Scizor suspect, where I deadass knew I was voting Do Not Ban before the suspect even began, I really don't know how I'll vote if I manage to pull reqs this time. I understand why people would like to see it gone, but I also understand why people would want it to stay.

To those who have more foresight into the tier, if MAlt does end up being kicked upstairs, what (if anything) do you see filling the power vacuum with it gone? To be frank, this question is probably the one that's most important to me in regards to how I'll vote.

An interesting suspect, curious why the conversation shifted from weathers to Altaria, was this always part of the plan? (No criticism intended)

I'm p sure MAlt was on the chopping block regardless. The process likely would have been expedited had Scizor been banned, but Scizor still existing lessened the need to go "JESUS CHRIST IT'S ALL ON FIRE SUSPECT FUCKING EVERYTHING"

 

[Hogg]

An interesting suspect, curious why the conversation shifted from weathers to Altaria, was this always part of the plan? (No criticism intended)

From the previous thread where we talked about timelines:

If Scizor is NOT deemed banworthy, we will relax the timeline a bit, since there becomes less of an impetus to have a second suspect conclude prior to UU Open. Right now the council is discussing two main potential suspects if Scizor does stay around. One is to test Mega Altaria, which many believe may be banworthy even if Scizor remains in the tier. The other is to provide a public test for Drizzle and Drought. Drizzle was banned in a very close council vote back in UU Beta, after multiple previous votes had failed to ban it, at a time when it looked inevitable that Mega Swampert would drop to UU in short order. Much has changed with the tier since then, and if we are not making any drastic changes to the tier, the council has decided that these weather abilities deserve a test in the public arena. However, this is not set in stone, and we will keep the community abreast of our plans.

 

[QY_CS]

Some quick predictions: scizor not banned so MAlt probably banned bcoz people want some change -> after MAlt dies probably so does lati coz barely any pokemon eats draco-> hey cmon but what about hydreigon? rip hydreigon as well -> now we lost most fire checks so moltres infernape gonna go -> now we lost the counters to scizor so gone it goes, conclusion: scizor ur not escaping this

ok just kidding :P MAlt is really interesting to me, bcoz each individual set of it is strong, but can be prepared for. Now the interesting part is would it be unbearable with its diversity? personally i dont really find MAlt being a very problematic pokemon to deal with, as UU have some really nice counters to each offensive variant. malt on stall is also nowhere close to unbreakable either imo, and even with its diversity i tend to think of it as a nice glue pokemon that synchronizes well with quite a few teams instead of just an overpowered pokemon by itself.

on the other hand i've had some discussion about MAlt and i really want to point something out. just because malt can break your stall doesnt mean its broken. stall is supposed to adapt to tier not the other way round.

i would lean more towards the side of do not ban in this suspect, i dont think that MAlt breaks the game balance in any way, not bringing MAlt and/or not specifically preparing a counter for MAlt is acceptable for a solid UU team. and ofc ur not gonna see me try to get a req bcoz why would i

finally, i honestly think latias deserves a sus way more, also being able to boost but nuke much harder, have much more immediate power, and is also a solid defensive backbone to a lot of teams

ive barely wrote in a suspect thread before (if i did at all) so plz tell me if anything i wrote is inap

 

[ORAS-Mega]

Pretty sure this is my first time doing this so i dunno what else I need. Malt is a good mon, but if you lose to it, most times it your fault and not because the mon itself is broken. Now before I get roasted, I don't mean that checking it is easy, but just like sciz, you should not make a team without considering the threat that is Malt. Saying this, I mean that when you face Malt, your Malt check dies, you lose. The BIG BUT here is that you kind of have to play in a way where your check dies. I have yet to see a Malt+Support team that sweeps a team with a designated Malt check right off the bat. Point being that especially with sciz still being around if you play carefully and smart, you can outlast Malt most times. Malt also suffers the 4 move syndrome, which is another reason why you can play around it.

With all that, FOR NOW I'm voting NO BAN because just like sciz its a good mon, but its not overwhelming. Maybe I don't see what others see, but that's my opinion.

ALSO FIRST

 

[Dreadfury]

When I saw this thread pop up I was initially convinced that I would, should I get reqs for this suspect, immediately vote ban (not unlike how I knew if I got the Scizor suspect reqs I'd vote DNB). However, despite my own personal dislike for Mega Altaria, I... genuinely don't think it's something I can necessarily deem "broken" or "unhealthy." The tier is very actively preparing for it at this point and has been heavily doing so for a couple of months now, and at this point I feel like it's becoming pretty obvious that the tier has a decent amount of counterplay to it on both defensive fronts and offensive fronts.

First, I won't deny that MAlt offers what is arguably the best typing in terms of combined offensive and defensive utility; Fairy STAB is amazing in this tier and Dragon/Fairy gives it so many crucial resistances that it virtually outclasses Togekiss in terms of raw defensive utility. Its peak damage output before setup is nothing to write home about but both of its offenses are high enough that it can prove very unpredictable until scouted for; it can cook its Steel-type counters with a pretty strong Fire Blast on mixed or special sets, or it can run Earthquake and hit them hard on its more physical sets. There's no denying that Mega Altaria is very versatile since it can become among the tier's best setup sweepers, one of the tier's bulkiest defoggers, or even a pretty effective lure. That's why it has solidified itself as one of the five best things in this tier for a while now, and that's why it's even a top three threat.

That said, I think Mega Altaria is being "figured out" at a pretty fast pace right now; the thing can hit very hard after boosts but before a boost it will frequently struggle to OHKO - and at times even struggle to 2HKO - many of its best checks; its special sets face their own issues as they can break past these threats with careful prediction but then struggle against other more offensively-oriented teams. Its Poison and Steel type checks frequently hit hard enough to give it absolute hell, and this is particularly true in a meta where stuff like Mega Steelix is beginning to trend a bit harder than before. Hell, even stuff like Ferroseed has been explored as of recently and has proven quite successful for several of its qualities and this is largely due to Mega Altaria's presence. Yes, it can most certainly abuse Facade or Refresh sets to deal with the status some of its other checks will try to slap on it; that said, Facade still leaves Mega Altaria hindered by most of these status effects in the long run (Toxic will still kill it eventually and Paralysis still slows it down a notch and can still trigger a Full Paralysis on it; games are won over less) while Refresh absolutely forces Mega Altaria to give up its valuable coverage. It faces some intense 4MSS in this regard; if it wants to sweep it has to make difficult choices between hitting the most targets and getting more boosts or between providing beneficial team support or being able to threaten defensive checks much more significantly. It has no room to run all of Refresh, Roost, Heal Bell/Refresh, Defog, Hyper Voice/Return/Facade/Double-Edge, and Earthquake/Fire Blast and most if not all of these moves are extremely important and really hurt to not run.

Moreover, Mega Altaria has a significant opportunity cost to run even if it is more often than not completely worth the commitment. This is not the Mega Metagross era of the OU tier; your Mega Evolution choice is actually significant in this tier and every highly-ranking Mega has something the others simply do not. Mega Altaria offers versatility, being a threatening sweeper given a turn or two of setup, a threatening mixed wallbreaker, or a great bulky Defogger and cleric (though each is a completely different set). Mega Sharpedo offers great wallbreaking potential right out of the gate and excellent sweeping potential if given a setup opportunity at the cost of being nearly-useless defensively; on the still-powerful Spikes offense teams these are qualities that are greatly valued and as such Mega Altaria - another Mega that would favor Spikes support on its DD sets - faces some pretty hefty competition. On other teams Mega Aerodactyl and Mega Manectric offer a much better Speed stat and more immediate power without requiring a turn of setup and have significantly better coverage that can be customized for little opportunity cost while also having access to excellent moves like Pursuit or Volt Switch, both of which are still excellent moves in this tier; these, too, are notable qualities Mega Altaria simply lacks if not completely then to a significant degree. On Stall teams Mega Steelix and Mega Aggron offer different qualities from Mega Altaria courtesy of being tanky Stealth Rockers with defensive typings that check and counter a completely different list of things (hell, they can even pressure some Scizor variants offensively while Mega Altaria is always threatened to a significant degree by all Scizor sets) and Stall has more viable Defoggers and Clerics than it does physically-tanky Steel-type Stealth Rock setters. In that regard Mega Altaria, while being great at what it does, never feels like it's so overcentralizing of a force that I feel like I'm always pressured to run it over any other Mega on any team archetype; yet if I wanted to run Mega Altaria on any archetype I most certainly could and it would most certainly be quite good in that role.

Overall, I feel like I'm in the DO NOT BAN club regarding this one though it took a lot of deliberation to come to that conclusion. There's no denying that Mega Altaria is without question one of the most centralizing forces in the tier right now, but to me it just feels like another S-rank threat. Banning Mega Altaria doesn't come even remotely close to having the same implications as did the idea of banning Scizor - if it gets banned that ban won't singlehandedly destabilize four tiers at once - but it still doesn't feel necessary. UU most likely isn't actively gaining anything if it gets banned yet a lot of teams are losing a defensive backbone if it gets banned. Versatility is not an inherently bad thing. Role compression isn't inherently a bad thing. And these things are especially not a bad thing when the tier has at this point begun to adapt to this versatile threat that at almost all times compresses several roles into one teamslot. With the tier being more prepared for Mega Altaria it's more difficult to naturally build a team that does lose to it than it is to build one that keeps it in check.

 

[dingbat]

not gonna get reqs this time since i’m in the motherland rn but here’s my take:

i think altaria in the last few meta phases has (subjectively) warped this meta more than scizor has. while scizor will always and objectively be the #1 threat in this meta (one does not simply counter SDBPBPBPBPBP), the altaria sets innovated in these phases have painted a new picture on how truly terrifying fluffer is right now. players opting to run adamant > jolly nature and facade/double edge on dd variants, to name a couple prominent examples, have granted alt convenient means to smash through stall harder than Sciz can ever dream of doing, but that’s not exactly why i have concerns about fluffers; its ability to conveniently maintain heavy pressure against everything else even with these stallbreaking sets is the reason that pushes me to believe alt possesses more potentially broken qualities than SDBPBPBPBPBP does.

that being said, i don’t think alt will end up getting banned from what i’m seeing so far and i very likely would vote no ban myself if i wanted to get reqs; sciz staying was definitely a big stabilizing factor for it, but i’m willing to bet that the ban-no ban ratio will mirror that of scizor’s whenever it happens.

 

[Freeroamer]

Does the 45 games played count draws? I remember from a while back there was a lot of furore about players who didn’t want to play each other on suspects/ladder tours both leaving the game so the game didn’t award a win or loss to either player, which if I’m correct is actually what lead PS to introduce the pop up that says you’ll forfeit a game if you leave a room. I feel like this “friendly draw” is something the new offer draw option will get used for a fair bit if this isn’t clarified early in the process. It will still get used for this because people don’t want to play their friends and potentially ruin their runs, but I don’t think it should count as one of their 45 games played. In the interests of absolute fairness asking everyone to win/lose 45 games is just cleaner. Of course there will be games that go to hundreds of turns where both parties legitimately want to draw to save themselves the time for a few ladder points, but I think those are few are far between as opposed to the other situation. If this is considered too minor a thing then disregard this post.

 

[mashonem]

Doesn't a draw still tank your GXE a bit? Not as much as an L does, but enough to make it so that there's some kind of drawback to taking it as an option?

 

[Freeroamer]

Doesn't a draw still tank your GXE a bit? Not as much as an L does, but enough to make it so that there's some kind of drawback to taking it as an option?

Yes but not to the degree it would with a loss. I just don’t think it should count as a game played if you meet your friend on ladder, both decide you don’t want to play and tie t1. Personally I would say suck it up, play your friend (I find these games a lot more enjoyable than playing people I don’t know anyway) and whoever wins wins. If you’re good enough to get reqs you should get them anyway and if you don’t, it’s really not a big deal. I get that might not be everyone’s mindset though so if you do want to tie before a turn is played, it shouldn’t have the additional reward of you getting to play less games through the suspect.

Honestly if you wanted to make the process as legitimate as possible you wouldn’t allow ties at all apart from in situations where it’s worth nobody’s time to play the games out (200+ turns). That’s obviously not an option at this point in the suspect and almost certainly not something that will get enforced in future suspects but I don’t think saying your wins+losses must be equal to or greater than 45 games is an unfair ask. This is exactly what you would’ve had to do before the option was added, and the option wasn’t added with the intention of making suspects easier and we shouldn’t let it do that.

Maybe I’m being over the top with this but I just think it’s the fairest solution for everyone.

 

[Hogg]

Yes but not to the degree it would with a loss. I just don’t think it should count as a game played if you meet your friend on ladder, both decide you don’t want to play and tie t1. Personally I would say suck it up, play your friend (I find these games a lot more enjoyable than playing people I don’t know anyway) and whoever wins wins. If you’re good enough to get reqs you should get them anyway and if you don’t, it’s really not a big deal. I get that might not be everyone’s mindset though so if you do want to tie before a turn is played, it shouldn’t have the additional reward of you getting to play less games through the suspect.

Honestly if you wanted to make the process as legitimate as possible you wouldn’t allow ties at all apart from in situations where it’s worth nobody’s time to play the games out (200+ turns). That’s obviously not an option at this point in the suspect and almost certainly not something that will get enforced in future suspects but I don’t think saying your wins+losses must be equal to or greater than 45 games is an unfair ask. This is exactly what you would’ve had to do before the option was added, and the option wasn’t added with the intention of making suspects easier and we shouldn’t let it do that.

Maybe I’m being over the top with this but I just think it’s the fairest solution for everyone.

Discussing this issue with other tier leaders right now so that we can come up with a fair solution across the board.

 

[Smallsmallrose]

Yes but not to the degree it would with a loss. I just don’t think it should count as a game played if you meet your friend on ladder, both decide you don’t want to play and tie t1. Personally I would say suck it up, play your friend (I find these games a lot more enjoyable than playing people I don’t know anyway) and whoever wins wins. If you’re good enough to get reqs you should get them anyway and if you don’t, it’s really not a big deal. I get that might not be everyone’s mindset though so if you do want to tie before a turn is played, it shouldn’t have the additional reward of you getting to play less games through the suspect.

Honestly if you wanted to make the process as legitimate as possible you wouldn’t allow ties at all apart from in situations where it’s worth nobody’s time to play the games out (200+ turns). That’s obviously not an option at this point in the suspect and almost certainly not something that will get enforced in future suspects but I don’t think saying your wins+losses must be equal to or greater than 45 games is an unfair ask. This is exactly what you would’ve had to do before the option was added, and the option wasn’t added with the intention of making suspects easier and we shouldn’t let it do that.

Maybe I’m being over the top with this but I just think it’s the fairest solution for everyone.

I feel like drawing is a perfectly viable option. Saying it isn't because it wasn't around for past suspects is like saying we can't use a new mon that OU drops on us, the tools available to players constantly change and those tools should be utilized if possible. Besides, its not like someone is going to get into a game with their bud 6 games in a row and draw each one, It'd be silly to say that someone who played 45 full games tried that much harder than someone who played 44 with a draw. (I've also heard a lot of people complain about the 45 game minimum when it came to Scizor but that's another can of worms for another time) and honestly? Even if a given player is good enough to get reqs without any draws, it still sucks to have a run killed by a friend or kill a friend's run. There were a couple runs I dropped on Scizor because I ran into some of my friends on the lower ladder and ended up with genuinely harder games than the mid-higher parts of the ladder. Sure, those 1 or 2 games might not matter in the long run for someone who can pull crazy 43-2 runs in their sleep but for players who struggle more with reqs that need everything to go right having that one loss against your friend being the run killer is super frustrating. I personally feel like it's ok, reqs are super high pressure and assuming the draw mechanic isn't abused, runs with it should be considered viable. Maybe if someone gets reqs on like 6-7 draws that's one thing and clear abuse of drawing but saying like 1-2 draws shouldn't count during an already taxing 45+ game run is a little over the top. I think its a completely fair mechanic if used sparingly. That said I can see the other side of the spectrum too and certainly think if anything that this is an interesting discussion and take.

 

[Freeroamer]

I feel like drawing is a perfectly viable option. Saying it isn't because it wasn't around for past suspects is like saying we can't use a new mon that OU drops on us, the tools available to players constantly change and those tools should be utilized if possible. Besides, its not like someone is going to get into a game with their bud 6 games in a row and draw each one, It'd be silly to say that someone who played 45 full games tried that much harder than someone who played 44 with a draw. (I've also heard a lot of people complain about the 45 game limit when it came to Scizor but that's another can of worms for another time) and honestly? Even if a given player is good enough to get reqs without any draws, it still sucks to have a run killed by a friend or kill a friend's run. There were a couple runs I dropped on Scizor because I ran into some of my friends on the lower ladder and ended up with genuinely harder games than the mid-higher parts of the ladder. Sure, those 1 or 2 games might not matter in the long run for someone who can pull crazy 43-2 runs in their sleep but for players who struggle more with reqs that need everything to go right having that one loss against your friend being the run killer is super frustrating. I personally feel like it's ok, reqs are super high pressure and assuming the draw mechanic isn't abused, runs with it should be considered viable. Maybe if someone gets reqs on like 6-7 draws that's one thing and clear abuse of drawing but saying like 1-2 draws shouldn't count during an already taxing 45+ game run is a little over the top. I think its a completely fair mechanic if used sparingly. That said I can see the other side of the spectrum too and certainly think if anything that this is an interesting discussion and take.

You know, I agree with a lot of this and the reason I started the discussion was because I wanted to see what other people’s views were, and ultimately try to prevent abuse of the feature before it could even start. After I posted most recently before this I did actually consider whether a cap on how many draws you could have would be the best way of handling this, probably a limit of 2 at the absolute maximum. I don’t think that would be fair to implement for this current suspect now it’s started and there’s a number of people who’ve already got reqs or are a decent amount into it, but maybe a more lenient cap of say 4 for this one then tightening it up for future ones would be a good catch all? There might be the odd person that’s getting screwed by this but I think there’s a point where you have to be honest about it and say you can’t just pick and choose who you play to that degree, and I very much doubt it’s more than a handful of people at worst. I’m sure the TLs will consider all options and come out with the best one though so we should wait on that.

The only part I disagree with is not running into people as often as you say, I tend to do a lot of laddering in my mornings and if I’m in the higher part of the ladder I can definitely see the same faces repeatedly, up to once in every 3 games I’d say if I and they are high enough or the ladder is particularly dead. It’s probably not applicable for most people but I thought I’d share my experiences of it.

This is the last I’ll post about this topic though, the TLs are discussing it and now that’s happening we should get back to talking about the suspect itself. Good talk though!

 

[spuds4ever]

Good to see this coming up as much as I was looking forward to seeing weather retested. Dragmag is honestly the easiest most consistent way to win both in ladder and tour games I've played (spoilers for teams) and altaria is at the heart of its success as it can put in so much work once steels are weakened and gone between it's amazing bulk (I've been preferring fatter adamant which can survive a 2hko from latias psychic and psyshock and counter non LO/psychium sets making it maybe the only non steel that can consistently counter lati). Heal bell pulls so much weight as well particularly in tandem with CM lati, its best partner on dragmag, as toxic is often fatter teams' best response if scizor is gone.

Latias I feel is actually harder to directly counter but the fact that altaria can boost its speed does push it over the edge and is a big factor in mandating scizor on so many builds. Counterbuilding dragmag with a conventional team structure (BOish balance) is possible but not really as good as other archetypes, ice beam mega slowbro is a really good counter, but outside of bro your options really are limited if you don't wanna be dragmag weak, even amoongus really needs both sludge bomb and clear smog as clear smog doesn't do enough damage even after mega evolution to roost sets and unevolved alt can DD in the face of sludge bomb so saccing to spore is honestly quite an easy way round it.

Tl;dr, alt is a big reason i think scizor feels obligatory on a lot of teams even if it isn't as hard to directly counter as latias, boosting speed stops scarfers from being a good response which leads to dragmag having a v good matchup a lot of the time.

 

[Moutemoute]

Alright let's get into it since I managed to get my reqs.

I'm more and more on the fence on Mega Altaria because I feel like this Pokemon is a bit iffy to deal with although it provides so much to the Underused by being able to deal with a lot of threats such as Hydreigon, Krookodile, Zeraora, Rotom-Heat or even Latias and Terrakion to a lesser extent. Some players already highlighted the fact that thanks to its Bulk and typing, Mega Altaria stands out as a top threat in the tier and as our best setup Sweeper. Like Scizor, it's a Pokemon which is able to overcome its checks thanks to its movepool.

A few months ago people played Mega Altaria with more Bulk than now and Refresh was very used but now, Mega Altaria's best set is without a doubt Dragon Dance Facade coupled with Adamant nature. This set allows Mega Altaria to pressure Bulky archetypes but also to bypass things like Quagsire which is 2HKO by a boosted Facade. I also noticed that Mega Altaria doesn't have a lot of things which can deal with it. Indeed, non-Roost Scizor is a iffy check to it since it can't come on Mega Altaria in the long run while Amoongus have to run Sludge Bomb and max HP+Def if it wants to be able to deal with Mega Altaria. On the other hand, Mega Altaria can still run Fire Blast which obliterates Scizor and 2HKO max HP+Def Amoonguss with just some prior damages.

I would like to share with you this replay of a match I've done vs pif which shows how good Mega Altaria can be even when the opponent has answers to it like Cobalion, Rocky Helmet Sludge Bomb Amoonguss and Choice Band Scizor :

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7uu-937465258

In my opinion, this side of Mega Altaria may be a bit problematic.

On the other hand, Mega Altaria is a pillar in the Underused because it's able to deal with other top threats. It's also a Pokemon which provide a ton of support to the team by being able to act as a Defogger, Cleric, Pivot thanks to its Bulk, typing and access to Roost but also an incredible setup Sweeper and win condition. Even if it is a bit slow, it's faster enough to outspeed what it needs to.
Mega Altaria can also be played in almost any kind of archetypes because it provides so much. On Stall team, Mega Altaria provides a Dragon-type immunity, Defog and/or Heal Bell support but also a good check to great breakers such as Nasty Plot Infernape. On Balanced and Bulky Offense team, its typing shines both offensively and defensively while ion Offense / HO, it can benefits from the recent Screens trend.

Overall Mega Altaria is amazing and it's in my opinion the second best Pokemon is the tier (the first being Scizor), it provides so much and some players may think that it provides maybe too much and it's too much a low risk, high reward Pokemon but I don't think it's the case. I think Mega Altaria is not unhealthy for the tier and counterbalance a lot of Pokemon which is great. It also provide a lot of role compression which is a blessing, especially in Underused where there is a lot of things to do and a lot of things to check in my opinion.

tl;dr: I'm leaning toward voting "do not ban"

 

[Twilight]

I got reqs yesterday and just wanted to share some of my thoughts as to what I will be voting for and just my opinion as a whole about Mega Altaria. Seeing as factors like draws are being brought up, I'll just say I did have two draws in my run where playing the Stall vs Stall PP war was tiresome. This by no means makes the decision 'right', but I do think there are scenarios where it is perfectly viable which Freeroamer has stated. Ofc this can be very subjective as to when you should use it, but this can be decided by the council. Maybe even having the development team implement a set amount of turns having to pass before you can cast a Draw e.g. 50 turns pass. Maybe this function does just make getting reqs easier idk, it would become pretty apparent if someone was abusing it by having more than like 4+ draws or something. Either way I replayed the two games and am still eligible for reqs, but I still think it is an interesting topic that was brought up.

Reqs so I don't lose them

Anyways, now I want to talk about Mega Altaria as I really believe that it isn't an issue that can be deemed banworthy. With this post I don't want to under sell its capabilities, because I'm sure everyone can agree it is a very good Pokemon. But I am not under the belief that it is at all broken or overwhelming for the tier. Imo, I think the tier benefits a lot from its presence, than if it was gone. Mega Altaria has adapted and changed a lot to settle itself in the meta with it now running Adamant or Double Edge to help break conventional Stall checks. Refresh letting it beat the status-reliant checks which it is now able to beat. While this is the case, I don't think I have ever felt it was too much to consistently prep for to the point it becomes unhealthy and skewers team building. Mega Altaria's primary role has been to attempt to sweep after a Dragon Dance or two, but the tier has an abundance of answers to this which can be incorporated onto teams easily. Steel-types like Doublade, Scizor, and Mega Aggron, while other checks like Amoonguss and Fairy-types. Offensive threats capable of threatening it see more usage too, and I'm sure Altaria is one of the big reasons for all these trends. However, none of these Pokemon being potent on teams provides an issue that doesn't give benefits to check the other top tier threats. If your team only has one way to handle Altaria, then yes you are asking to have an issue with this Pokemon once it sets up a Dragon Dance. In this sense maybe you can say it restricts building, but Scizor does the same thing where you are forced to have more than one counter play for it. Same applies for Latias, this isn't uncommon in other Pokemon.

I've seen a few arguments, not necessarily in this thread, about its ability to run multiple sets to help break past its checks. With it being able to run Earthquake and Fire Blast to pressure the Steel-types and Amoonguss with the latter. It can carry support moves like Haze, Defog, and Heal Bell to become a defensive pivot for teams. But running any of these coverage options doesn't come without an opportunity cost. If you choose to run utility moves, then you most likely have given up its ability to sweep. Running EQ and Fire Blast, while it can lure some checks makes it susceptible to one of its biggest weaknesses being Status. Whether it being a burn or poison it very much dislikes having a status condition to be able to sweep effectively, but also to put its amazing typing in Fairy / Dragon to good use defensively. In most games it is very easy to overwhelm Altaria because teams dedicate it to be their one response to pivoting into Hydreigon, Krookodile, and Crawdaunt efficiently. All of this in conjunction with hazards and its middling Speed tier can very easily overwhelm its ability to perform the multiple tasks it wants to. By no means do I think it is unable to compress all of this into one, but it still has big faults. The ability to run multiple sets to break through checks isn't uncommon in other Pokemon, so I fail to see why Altaria is any different.

Personally, I don't think Altaria restricts building that much or at least not to the point that it is overlooked by how much it can do for pretty much every archetype. Stall teams appreciate its ability to compress so much into one slot as I mentioned before as the offensive presence isn't needed. Offense appreciates its wall breaking or sweeping capabilities while taking advantage of its typing to help check a few top tier threats. It can provide so much to all these teams, but it doesn't reach the point where it overshadows every other potential Mega. The only Pokemon I can think struggles a lot because of Malts presence is Togekiss, but it still has qualities which can set it apart. Mega Altaria encourages a lot of Pokemon in the tier as I mentioned much before. I know the argument of Scizor checks Malt is pretty common which I can agree to an extent. But you can't overlook that Scizor is literally so splash-able for a multitude of reasons than just checking Altaria to warrants its usage being so high. Ofc I don't want to take away from the fact it is a reason and a valid one.

Overall, I plan to vote NO BAN, as I think the tier is better off with it staying than leaving. I don't think it is an overwhelming and unhealthy presence that causes more issues than it provides. I am still very much intrigued to reading posts as to why people think Altaria is indeed ban worthy. Apologies if this isn't well structured, I mainly just pieced some of my thoughts together to get my opinion across and help give me a concrete decision. Thank you for reading this and I look forward to all discussions here ^_^

 

[N_Mareanie]

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Posting reqs here so I won't forget.

Personally I will be voting ban, I find Mega Alt way too bulky for something that can sweep so easily, and making one mistake just fucks you over immediately, and there's not always a coming back from it. I've caught scizors countless of times on the switch with flamethrower and cotton guard is seriously stupid to break sometimes lmao (it not being common is a stupid reasoning, it still exists). I'll be voting Ban
(I didnt want to go too deep into my reasoning since I just wanted this to post reqs till the indentification thread is up, and didn't want to make this an oneliner)

 

[wuhoodude]

I want to add onto the topic of draws.
This feature was added with the intent to relieve ladder players from lengthy games that could potentially drag all the way to the 1000 turn limit. It was originally suggested in this thread to address endless battles. https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/endless-battle-clause-for-ps-ladder.3624183/post-7627937 Now that this has been implemented, I find that there is potential for this feature to be abused during suspect tests. When it was first revealed, I didn't expect that it could be abused until Freeroamer pointed out that each tie still counts as a ladder game. This adds an additional reward besides not having to play out a lengthy game even if your gxe drops slightly. Of course you only get this benefit if both players agree to draw. If you happen to run into your friends while on your suspect run, this isn't hard to do. I actually like that friends don't have to ruin each others suspects anymore, but allowing the tie to count as a game can lead to abuse. Freeroamer has explained this and I fully agree with him.

Against unfamiliar players, the chances both players agree to tie is smaller. When I first saw the draw feature being used, I was surprised to see that it was used on the very first turn by a player using stall against a player not using stall. I found it surprising because the battle clearly wasn't going to last long and the draw was offered the very first turn. To a low ladder player, this is very enticing when you run into an intimidating stall team and are given the opportunity to avoid fighting the cancer team without losing elo when elo means everything to you as a low ladder player. I eventually ran into the stall player myself and he did the same thing with me and offered to draw first turn. Perhaps he thought just because he was running stall, I would be intimidated and be more likely to agree on the tie. Unfortunately I lost that battle, but I didn't regret refusing the tie. In this scenario, the draw feature can be abused because of the potential manipulation involved.

When running stall, you already have the advantage versus an inexperienced player. Stall is something you have to prepare for mentally. For most people, running into stall makes them cringe making them more likely to just forfeit. But losing elo is important to some people, so forfeiting may not be the best option for them. The draw feature offers both parties an easy way out but benefits the player attempting reqs more than the casual ladderer.

 

[Estarossa]

I want to add onto the topic of draws.
This feature was added with the intent to relieve ladder players from lengthy games that could potentially drag all the way to the 1000 turn limit. It was originally suggested in this thread to address endless battles. https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/endless-battle-clause-for-ps-ladder.3624183/post-7627937 Now that this has been implemented, I find that there is potential for this feature to be abused during suspect tests. When it was first revealed, I didn't expect that it could be abused until Freeroamer pointed out that each tie still counts as a ladder game. This adds an additional reward besides not having to play out a lengthy game even if your gxe drops slightly. Of course you only get this benefit if both players agree to draw. If you happen to run into your friends while on your suspect run, this isn't hard to do. I actually like that friends don't have to ruin each others suspects anymore, but allowing the tie to count as a game can lead to abuse. Freeroamer has explained this and I fully agree with him.

Against unfamiliar players, the chances both players agree to tie is smaller. When I first saw the draw feature being used, I was surprised to see that it was used on the very first turn by a player using stall against a player not using stall. I found it surprising because the battle clearly wasn't going to last long and the draw was offered the very first turn. To a low ladder player, this is very enticing when you run into an intimidating stall team and are given the opportunity to avoid fighting the cancer team without losing elo when elo means everything to you as a low ladder player. I eventually ran into the stall player myself and he did the same thing with me and offered to draw first turn. Perhaps he thought just because he was running stall, I would be intimidated and be more likely to agree on the tie. Unfortunately I lost that battle, but I didn't regret refusing the tie. In this scenario, the draw feature can be abused because of the potential manipulation involved.

When running stall, you already have the advantage versus an inexperienced player. Stall is something you have to prepare for mentally. For most people, running into stall makes them cringe making them more likely to just forfeit. But losing elo is important to some people, so forfeiting may not be the best option for them. The draw feature offers both parties an easy way out but benefits the player attempting reqs more than the casual ladderer.

I'm assuming your referring to me (UUAS Tom) with the stall player part. I offered you a draw because you were also a suspect test player and saw you had a bad matchup vs my team, since at that point it was looking very likely tie games wouldn't count to total anyway, so was in fact being kind and helping you, not trying to intimidate you lol, as i had more to gain from playing that match than offering a tie, as the end result proved.

I agree however the simplest solution for this suspect is simply to not count ties to the game total, and this would actually slightly punish players for going for ties due to the small gxe loss(dropped 0.1% on one of my 2 ties) if the game doesn't count, which would mean there's no real manipulation involved, since you can't just offer a tie if your losing cause the enemy can just decline. A limit / flat out ban to number of ties could be put in for the next suspect test imo, but it would be unfair on people who already got reqs this time around, so would be best to just only count wins and losses this time.

Putting reqs here too incase i lose them, included 45 with and without ties

 

[Hogg]

REGARDING DRAWS DURING A SUSPECT TEST:

There is still ongoing discussion regarding how best to handle the offerdraw option. However, in the meantime, we have agreed on this as a temporary solution:

• Repeatedly or aggressively asking for draws during a suspect will be treated the same as asking for wins, and result in disqualification and a possible infraction.
• Drawing without good reason/indication that there is a legitimate reason for the game to be tied will be treated the same as forfeiting under the same circumstances, and may result in disqualification and a possible infraction.

Do NOT make agreements with friends to draw when you encounter them on the ladder during a suspect test. Yes, this applies even if you plan to play an extra game afterwords. The /offerdraw button should not be used as a way to avoid playing difficult opponents or matchups. And do not attempt to bully players into accepting a draw because they haxed you, brought a "cheese team," you "really need the points," etc., any more than you'd try to get them to forfeit.

Thanks for being patient while we get all this figured out, and for bringing up the issues with the new command.

 

[EchoGaia]

Analysis Mega Altaria: Ban or Not Ban?

Requirments:

Mega Altaria has always been a top tier Mega Evolution in the UU tier and now comes the time for it to be suspect tested. Here is my analysis and final decision for the sweet cotton dragon bird.

First of all, Mega Altaria in the UU tier is fantastic. Fairy has always been a wonderful typing since it came out in Generation 6, both offensively and defensively, and Mega Altaria is among the best Fairy types in the tier, if not the best. Its good all around bulk combined with its strong defensive typing makes it difficult to counterplay offensively cause its weaknesses aren't that common, and its decent damage output with both Dragon Dance, Pixilate and strong coverage options in Earthquake and Fire Blast makes it also difficult for bulky teams to handle if they lack a very bulky Steel type. While its Speed might be lacking, its good bulk make common Choice Scarf users like Hydreigon, Infernape and Krookodile a tough task to revenge kill it from full health, and its access to Roost and (sometimes) Cotton Guard makes it even more difficult to take down, especially physically. It has even access to either Refresh or a strong Pixilate boosted Facade to take advantage of passive foes that rely on Toxic or burns to stop Mega Altaria's rampage, giving it the fest of 2HKOing both Quagsire/Pyukumuku and Gligar if Altaria is statused, two main physical walls for stall teams. However, Mega Altaria is very strapped for moveslots, as it cannot run all what it wants to and thus is always beaten by something depending on what it runs. For instance if it lacks Fire Blast, Scizor can come in, eat up an Earthquake and threaten Mega Altaria with a strong Bullet Punch. If it lacks Earthquake, things like Volcanion gives it a hard time and may pack a super effective move against it. But despite all of this, Mega Altaria is a really strong pokemon and you can't go wrong by picking it on a team thanks to its ability to check basically every Dark type in the tier barring Alolan Muk, and most Dragon types as well.

But while Mega Altaria is strong, it has some counters. Mega Aggron fears nothing it can go for, even shrugging off Fire Blast and Heavy Slam is always a strong 2HKO on all variants of Mega Altaria barring Cotton Guard variants, which can always fall prey to a Toxic or a critical hit. Scizor can always keep it in check with its strong Bullet Punch and Amoonguss can put it to sleep/erase its boosts with Clear Smog, while not being worn down that much thanks to Regenerator. Amoonguss gets also a special mention that also beats Cotton Guard and Facade variants of Altaria with little trouble thanks to Clear Smog and Rocky Helmet. Mega Slowbro, while not enjoying full powered Pixilate boosted Facades upon switching in, can boost alongside Mega Altaria with Iron Defense while the little bird cannot do anything back, thanks to Mega Slowbro immunity to critical hits and access to Ice Beam to directly threaten Mega Altaria. Mega Slowbro can though fall prey to special variants and also toxic variants, while more rare, making it an inconsistent check. Finally, Doublade is also a strong check, while falling to Fire Blast from special variants, can stop physical variants cold thanks to its huge physical bulk and ability to 2HKO back with Gyro Ball in the worse case scenario, although the low pp of the move can make Cotton Guard variants of Mega Altaria being able to stall it out and beat it.

While all of this might show my opinion is towards a ban, i will talk about why UU needs Mega Altaria. Thinking about UU without it, Pokemon like Crawdaunt, Latias and Hydreigon would become much more of threats, especially Crawdaunt which is already a pain to switch into, without Mega Altaria it would be even more threatening for most stall teams and balance builds, as its strong Life Orb boosted Knock Offs/Crabhammers can already 2HKO almost everything in the tier. Pokemon like Infernape and Mega Sharpedo would lose on their respective Gunk Shot and Ice Fang for more specific moves such as Psychic Fangs and Thunder Punch (for instance) to hit different targets without the fear of not hitting the cotton bird super effectively, Mega Manectric would finally forgo completely hp ice for hp grass to hit Swampert more effecively, or Signal Beam to hit Latias and Hydreigon harder.

Considering all of this, and after thinking a really long time, i vote DO NOT BAN towards Mega Altaria suspect test in the UnderUsed tier.

Thanks for reading ;)