Metagame np: PU Stage 9 - The Ruler's Back

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LordST

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This new meta should be exciting! Two new great grass checks in Rotom-S and Muk means things like Tangela, Leafeon, and Roselia may fall in viability but who knows?
Anyways on to a Grass type that i think is very viable:
cacturne.gif
Cacturne @ Life Orb
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Mild Nature/ Hasty Nature
- Dark Pulse
- Giga Drain
- Sucker Punch
- Focus Blast

This is the Cacturne set i think we will see most often. Cacturne has great dual STAB typing that hits the majority of the tier, the only exceptions being Mawile, Monferno, Pawniard, and Vullaby, none of which really enjoy switching in. When this is paired with Focus Blast to 2hko common walls like Audino and AV Bouffalant, Cacturne will be very hard to stop defensively outside of Spdef Clefairy or the new addition of a Spdef Muk. Mild Nature is chosen to dish out the most damage as possible unless you want to outspeed Pawniard in which case Hasty can be used. Cacturne also has a useful ability in water absorb to stop choice locked Floatzel, Simipour, Lapras, etc. Sucker Punch is useful for revenge killing and kinda self-explanatory. I think Cacturne is a great addition worthy of A to A- rank and I look forward to seeing how it and all the other new drops shape the meta.
 
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Take Azelfie

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These drops are all wonderful :D

But I'm actually curious on how much Monferno is going to change. Yes, currently the best Fighting-type in PU after Machoke' s departure is Monferno but there have been quite a few things changing with this Pokemon.

First of all I would like to ask the question, "Does Pelipper's reintroduction also make Monferno want to have Thunder Punch again?" This is question that can't truly be answered till the meta settled down a bit but here are my opinions on the topic. After Pelipper's original departure Monferno was much more free to use U-turn or Mach Punch on its sets even though Swanna was still around. Swanna's defensive set wasn't exactly what we wanted as it didn't have Pelipper's natural bulk. But it still dealt with Monferno none of the less but Monferno still ended up trading its Thunder Punch coverage. But there are a lot of reasons why like some Pokemon who Monferno was paired with cared less about Swanna because they could actually it unlike People who they wanted removed. At this point I'm unsure of what will happen but I'm leaning towards TPuncg being added on.

This is going to probably be one of the best offensive counters because of its resistance to Fighting-type and good natural bulk. And it can pressure it with Air Slash or gain momentum on the switch. But there could be some kind games like U-turning on the Volt Switch to bring in x wallbreaker.
 
well well, what do we have here:

Smeargle: this mon is going to be seen quite often on hazard stacking HOs such as webs archetypes for example, giving hard competition to leavanny, as dark void + nuzzle is always cool, so yeah overall a quite appreciated addition to these fast offensive team archetypes, also drumpass meme for fun teams rofl.

Pelipper: its time to say goodbye to defensive swanna, as peli is the superior choice for sure, we are probabily going to see t.punch monferno more often, but I'm glad this mon is finally back, its also gonna be a nice partner for chinchou hehe

Cacturne: probabily the scariest drop we got there, but time will tell. it can run many different sets, gains access to both nasty plot and swords dance, useful prio in sucker punch, can run mixed as it was mentioned above, can also give spikes support and work in a suicide lead fashion with sash, spikes, dbond etc. However its very slow but pretty versatile, I expect it to find a good place in the meta.

Muk: its pretty strong on bulk and attack power, stab gunk shot is gonna hit very hard with cb + sticky hold being really helpful for choiced sets, AV is gonna be a nice option too, and I dont even see curse muk being bad at all, surely an interesting addition we got there.

Rotom-s: a cool offensive check to grass/fighting mons, able to give momentum, running scarf sets just like his brother fridge, being able to sport some psplit + wow sets decently, but i'll be taking a look more at its rkilling job and expecially at its set with balloon.
 

ManOfMany

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Smeargle: Obviously we all know about Sticky Webs Smeargle, and hazard stack Smeargle. It's gonna be quite the threat but it might not actually be all that much better than Leavanny due to being outsped and Taunted by Missy and Grumpig (although it can Magic Coat that with prediction). ShuckleDeath and I have been theorizing with a Belly Drum set (after he swept me with it lol), which we feel could actually be dangerous. He came up with Belly Drum, Bonemerang, Icicle Crash, Extreme Speed with Technician to give those moves a boost, which actually is super hard to wall, but I'll let him explain it to you better. I theorized Spore/Dark Void, Belly Drum, Espeed, Bonemerang which can set up on any slower pokemon without needing Memento support. This also frees it to run Silk Scarf which gets you certain KOs (+6 252+ Atk Silk Scarf Smeargle Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Monferno: 297-351 (110.4 - 130.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO). However it is badly walled by Gourgeist, Vullaby, and Tangela.

Smeargle @ Focus Sash
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sticky Web/Stealth Rock
- Stealth Rock/Spikes/Magic Coat
- Nuzzle
- Dark Void

This is what I foresee the standard lead Smeargle set as being. It wants two hazards because otherwise why use it over other hazard setters? The exception is on Sticky Web teams where they can afford to run SR Relicanth or something. It also wants Dark Void so it can set up hazards in front of a sleeping pokemon, and it wants Nuzzle so it can actually do damage and cripple other pokemon especially if Taunted. It would be tough to fit Magic Coat in there if you want to prevent Taunt, but it could be fit over a secondary hazard on a Webs team.


Cacturne: On paper this mon looks ridiculous, but I think this will actually be quite balanced in this meta. SD + Sucker is the most dangerous set due to its potential to sweep teams, but not necessarily the best. It gets walled by common pokemon like Gourgeist and Vullaby, and is easily checked by Monferno. Additionally it is highly reliant on Sucker and we have plenty of ways to deal with that, from fast Wisp users, fast Substitute users, or simply trying to PP stall by switching out or using non-attacking moves. The mixed Dark Pulse, Giga, Spikes/Focus Blast (shoutouts ShuckleDeath), Sucker will probably be the best set in terms of consistency. However, it's really not that scary, doesn't hit extremely hard and can be revenge killed easily since it's Sucker Punch doesn't have full investment.


Muk: is cute. Lots of people I've tested with have been experimenting with CB Gunk Shot which is really powerful and tanky at the same time. It's a neat pokemon, although it needs to predict to get around poison resists. I actually like CB Poison Touch with Poison Jab more than Gunk Shot, cause you got the 60% CHANCE TO POISON THE OPPONENT THAT'S MORE THAN SACRED FIRE, as well as the accuracy. Seriously that wears down potential counters so fast....Yeah anyway, it's going to be a solid tankmon but not anything amazing cause of the low speed, and decent amount of checks. As amberrlamps said, AV might be a decent set as well, considering it has even higher special bulk than Bouffalant. And Curse does look potentially frightening (maybe w/ Shuca) considering the only special attackers that can hit it hard, Psychic-types, take a ton from Shadow Sneak

Muk @ Choice Band
Ability: Poison Touch
EVs: 218 HP / 252 Atk / 40 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Poison Jab
- Shadow Sneak
- Fire Punch/Focus Punch
- Ice Punch

Shadow Sneak is a powerful priority, Fire Punch hits Metang/Mawile/Klang. Ice Punch hits Gabite/Vibrava/Golem, and Focus Punch bops Probo and every other rock type really hard on the switch.


Rotom-S: I don't actually think this pokemon will be that good. Decent, but not a PU top threat maybe. Its stats are good enough, but its matchup with the meta seems to me kind of mediocre. It's main STABs being walled by Golem and Stunfisk really would limit the potential of a Choice Scarf or Choice Specs set in my opinion, as well as the middling power of Air Slash. And it sucks being checked by its own relative Rotom-F. Tbolt/Air Slash/HP Grass/Wisp with Leftovers or something like that would probably be its best set in my opinion, so it can abuse its decent bulk and set of resistances nicely (and it checks Monferno unlike Frost!). Still will be revenge killed by plenty pokemon after Stealth Rocks damage though.

Rotom-Fan @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Air Slash
- Hidden Power Grass
- Will-O-Wisp/Volt Switch
 
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5gen

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Cacturne: Offensive grass that can beat Gourg/steels and go mixed...Seems like an interesting mon. It has the movepool and dual 115 offenses to be a serious threat in PU. STAB Sucker Punch coming off 115 attack which will basically dent any frail mon after rocks (i.e Float, Zeb, Mime etc). It also makes up for it's poor base 55 speed which is nice. Also has access to Swords Dance and Nasty Plot if it wants to play the role of set up sweeper, but I think mixed will be most common for it's ability to stallbreak/hit a wide range of mons. All this versatility means it's gonna be hard having a counter, but I think stuff like Cuno, Vullaby, Monferno, Zweilous and Muk will be able to reliably check. Not to mention it's reliance on Sucker can be used against it in the form of Sub or Wisp.

Rotom-Fan: In a meta where Monferno and offensive Grasses like Leafeon are popular, Rotom-Fan is able to check them and maintain offensive presence. Can run the same sets as Frostom (SubSplit, SubWisp, Scarf) but has the superior defensive typing imo. Unlike Frostom though, it isn't able to punish VSwitch absorbers as well. I feel it's defensive utilities will be the reason behind it's use simply because it can check a bunch, keep momentum and status things.

Muk: Nice fat mon with the power and movepool to back it up. Pure-Poison typing along with Sticky Hold is basically a better Swalot imo, since it retains a balance between offensive and defense thanks to it's stat spread. Like Swalot, Muk is able to check Grasses, Monferno and even Psychics like Mime/Dabra with Shadow Sneak (Gunk Shot for BEM). CB and AV are really good on this, as the former gives it amazing power and the latter makes it a great tank. Fire Blast, PuP/Focus Punch, Memento, Taunt and Curse are all options Muk can run too.

Since people have posted about how Smeargle can function, I might as well try posting possible stops to it.
Taunt-Fast Taunt users such as Missy can shutdown lead variants unless they carry Magic Coat
Multi-Hit Users-Things like CB Leaf or Rock Blast Golem can hope to kill it before it sets up too much, but Dark Void can play around slower mons
Magic Coat/Natu-RawMelon mentioned Magic Coat, which can turn Smeargle into something helpful in a sense (bouncing everything back). Natu can basically beat non-attacking variants
 

ShuckleDeath

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I was messing around with Smeargle and believe it or not it has just the right power to threaten a huge portion of the tier at +6.


Smeargle @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Technician
EVs: 180 HP / 252 Atk / 60 Def / 16 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Bonemerang
- Icicle Spear
- Belly Drum

It may have an atrocious attack stat but its access to almost every move in the game, and Technician actually makes it quite threatening. Extreme Speed at +6 can OHKO a lot of fast offensive Mons. Bonemerang OHKOs Golem(through Sturdy) , it also has a very high chance of OHKOing defensive Relicanth after Rocks. Icicle Spear with a bit of chip and Stealth Rock damage can KO both Gourgeist-XL and defensive Tangela, it even can just OHKO after rocks if you get 4 hits on Gourgeist-XL and 5 hits on Tangela.

+6 252+ Atk Smeargle Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zebstrika: 322-381 (110.6 - 130.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+6 252+ Atk Smeargle Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Jumpluff: 295-348 (101.3 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+6 252+ Atk Smeargle Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Monferno: 247-292 (91.8 - 108.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+6 252+ Atk Technician Smeargle Icicle Spear (4 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 352-416 (94.3 - 111.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+6 252+ Atk Technician Smeargle Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 300-360 (89.8 - 107.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+6 252+ Atk Technician Smeargle Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 16+ Def Golem: 400-472 (110.1 - 130%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+6 252+ Atk Technician Smeargle Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Metang: 368-436 (113.9 - 134.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+5 252+ Atk Technician Smeargle Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mawile: 388-460 (127.6 - 151.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+6 252+ Atk Technician Smeargle Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 248 HP / 128 Def Eviolite Roselia: 276-326 (91 - 107.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+6 252+ Atk Technician Smeargle Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Audino: 314-370 (76.5 - 90.2%) -- approx. 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+6 252+ Atk Technician Smeargle Icicle Spear (3 hits) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 240-288 (69.9 - 83.9%) -- approx. 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


Drawbacks-
Smeargle does, unfortunately, have quite a few big drawbacks. For one, it is remarkably frail only having 55/35/45 defences so if used this set takes a huge amount of support to set up, much like Linoone. While comparing Smeargle to Linoone, Smeargle may be able to take out a lot of the tier with coverage, it fails in really doing enough to bulky Pokemon that it can not hit super effectively leaving it unable to take out Dusknoir, Solrock, Clefairy and a whole ton of other Pokemon. It always has the option for other coverage moves but at the end of the day something will aways wall it. It is not in a bad speed tier for a Pokemon of this nature but with its low attack it will have trouble OHKOing bulky Pokemon with Extream Speed leaving it being vulnerable to faster Pokemon(16 speed evs allows it to out speed adamant base 45s)

So overall a cool set I tested and worked a lot better than I expected.

Sweet Replays
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nu-410817908


http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nu-410821468

and Team
 
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pancake

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Ok so I'm away as many of you may know but I'm going to post my opinions on these drops (except togetic didn't drop, which makes me real sad). (I even had a team that I made with Nasty Pass Togetic before it dropped, I was that confident :/)

SMEARGLE - first of all ShuckleDeath that team looks like the most fun team I've seen in a long time, I'll look forward to using it when I get back :}

Obviously, hazard stacking and sticky web is where Smeargle shines, but I'm hoping to make belly drum pass smeargle work. It could pass into stuff like Floatzel and proceed to wreck. Team hopefully coming soon.

PELIPPER: is back b o i s. It's as good as ever.

The thing people don't consider when thinking about Thunder Punch Monferno is that Monferno basically needs Blitz/Fire Punch, CC, and Mach. This means that in order to run Thunder Punch, you need to run 4 attacks without the great momentum U-turn gives you. To me, this is not worth it. I guess the surprise factor will be nice, but I'm curious to see how this turns out.

Cacturne: it has plenty of checks, but Wow, this thing looks amazing on Offense. STAB LO Sucker from 115 attack is nothing to laugh at.

Example: revenging cacturne with say, Dodrio is just not going to happen. LO sucker kills after rocks. It can run mixed, SD, NP, physical or special.

Not to mention, this thing gets Spikes! Should be fun to use.

Muk: :} {: :}
So happy about this thing lol. It's just really good. I think it will make Poison-types a lot more relevant in this tier, as they really weren't before. CB and AV promise to be the best sets, and this thing gets a really colorful move pool. Would like to highlight the hilarious Relicanth and Golem lure Giga Drain. Should be fun and good.

Rotom-S is really boring, so I don't feel like talking about it. :-)

E: sorry for bad post again, i am away ;(
 
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Punchshroom

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you got the 60% CHANCE TO POISON THE OPPONENT THAT'S MORE THAN SACRED FIRE
I just wanna point out that Poison Touch's chance is considered separate from the attack's existing Poison Chance, with the other chance taking effect should the first one fail (70% chance). So it's not stacked as 60% and more (0.3) + (0.7 * 0.3) = 51% chance.


Smeargle @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Technician
EVs: 180 HP / 252 Atk / 60 Def / 16 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Bonemerang
- Icicle Spear
- Belly Drum
Btw, this set seems mighty fun and all, but don't you think V-Create > Icicle Spear and Bullet Seed > Bonemerang would be a better option? V-Create gives you consistency against the bulky Grasses while covering Steel-types and Dusknoir at the same time, and the stat drops shouldn't matter too much when you're clicking ESpeed against nearly everything else. This allows you to replace Bonemerang with Bullet Seed, which covers Solrock, smacks Golem + Relicanth harder, and still boasts better accuracy against things like Stunfisk.
 
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ShuckleDeath

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I just wanna point out that Poison Touch's chance is considered separate from the attack's existing Poison Chance, with the other chance taking effect should the first one fail (70% chance). So it's not stacked as 60% and more (0.3) + (0.7 * 0.3) = 51% chance.

Btw, this set seems mighty fun and all, but don't you think V-Create > Icicle Spear and Bullet Seed > Bonemerang would be a better option? V-Create gives you consistency against the bulky Grasses while covering Steel-types and Dusknoir at the same time, and the stat drops shouldn't matter too much when you're clicking ESpeed against nearly everything else. This allows you to replace Bonemerang with Bullet Seed, which covers Solrock, smacks Golem + Relicanth harder, and still boasts better accuracy against things like Stunfisk.
+6 252+ Atk Smeargle V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 290-342 (86.8 - 102.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

Also seems good you get walled by Vullaby much harder, but this is a good example of what I mean by it can run coverage for anything but still be walled by something. That being said I feel this may be better overall considering it hits about the same but it adds in Solrock and Dusknoir, plus you dont have to rely on getting 4-5 hits with icicle Spear thanks for pointing this out.
 
I just wanna point out that Poison Touch's chance is considered separate from the attack's existing Poison Chance, with the other chance taking effect should the first one fail (70% chance). So it's not stacked as 60% and more (0.3) + (0.7 * 0.3) = 51% chance.
60% CHANCE TO POISON THE OPPONENT THAT'S MORE THAN SACRED FIRE
Well to be fair, the chance of poison is more than Sacred Fire's chance of burn.

(Incoming jokes about being a Flying type and having Levitate) I think Rotom-Fan will fit better on Defensive teams than Frost due to its better typing and will also be able to check Grass types. Pain Split and Will-O-Wisp would be interesting to use with this.
Muk was the drop I was the most pleased with because of it being a Poison type that is quite versatile on many teams with its great movepool and ability to check Grass types. Choice Band and Assault Vest will probably be the most used sets, but the Curse set works well also.
Pelipper has returned and there really isn't much I can say about this. Because it was highly used as a Defogger before NU stole it, the metagame might revolve around hazards less and Hidden Power Electric may be seen more. Pelipper would pair well with Chinchou, due to its Electric immunity.
Cacturne has the potential to be a large threat in the tier with its great attack and special attack. I can see Mixed and Swords Dance being the main two sets, but a Spikes lead isn't bad. However, Cacturne is rather slow and has a 4x weakness to U-turn. I tried Cacturne on a speed pass team and it didn't disappoint!
Smeargle may be used mostly for laying down hazards or as support, but other sets, such as Belly Drum (which surprisingly works well) would be fun and interesting to use. Because of its access to every move, there is a lot of freedom in choosing moves, which is really great!
 
Hi! I'm just going to post some cool replays here of the new drops. Please don't mind the gastly, I was just experimenting, the real focus is the highlight on cacturne, muk, and smeargle.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-411777968

LO swords dance cacturne, it is really nice if you can predict well. also with webs support and stealth rock from smeargle it gets the job done much easier. I've also tried mixed cacturne with focus blast/giga drain/dark pulse/ suckerpunch, and it is just as satisfying at wallbreaking.


http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-411951925

here is another replay of swords dance cacturne putting in some work, this time i was using webs+stealth rock with trapinch support. it may seem weird but it **reliably** traps monferno which is my biggest weakness to my dark spam core. pawniard+cacturne is pretty neat, because of the knock offs and dark spam.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-412265158

This replay showcases mixed cacturne. Even though my opponent kept his monferno around the entire game, cacturne still managed to wreak havoc at the end, and even ko the monferno.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

After about 60 matches with cacturne, I can already tell how powerful this pokemon is. It is honestly insane, able to 2hko monferno with focus blast (non eviolite), while it also 2hko's vullaby with focus blast after stealth rock. The sucker punch power is still brutal, even when ev'd for special attack. Cacturne is my favorite drop by far this stage.
 
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termi

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hi why isn't floatzel banned yet here's a list of shit that makes it broken
  • zebstrika is only really relevant non-scarfer that outspeeds and kills and it's less omnipresent than before
  • no reliable counters
  • switching into it is a roulette because of how many great sets it has (roselia dies to physical, vullaby dies to special, mixed sets are fantastic atm so basically you're free to pick which of the few floatzel checks you can obliterate)
  • stab priority so forget about an easy rk with monferno or a scarfer once they're weakened
  • yes we got new checks but who really gives a shit this thing has no business being in this tier what are your arguments against a ban there are none
  • bye
 
hi why isn't floatzel banned yet here's a list of shit that makes it broken
  • zebstrika is only really relevant non-scarfer that outspeeds and kills and it's less omnipresent than before
  • no reliable counters
  • switching into it is a roulette because of how many great sets it has (roselia dies to physical, vullaby dies to special, mixed sets are fantastic atm so basically you're free to pick which of the few floatzel checks you can obliterate)
  • stab priority so forget about an easy rk with monferno or a scarfer once they're weakened
  • yes we got new checks but who really gives a shit this thing has no business being in this tier what are your arguments against a ban there are none
  • bye
  • we have plenty of checks
  • Electrode and Ninjask are relevant things iirc
  • It's rather easy to scout its set as its STAB reveals whenever it's physical or special biased, then you just have to scout for coverage
  • Now it's got not only new checks, but old ones aswell (pelipper here makes it want to run hp elec, which does less to lapras and tank regice than focus blast; special biased also loses to dino if it choosed to hit peli)
  • it is pretty healthy and without it, some mons become even more powerful than they already are (SD monf, for example).
  • the fastest water-type after it is Simipour which, although more powerful, lacks speed to truly act as a revenge killer w/o scarf
  • bye
 
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Take Azelfie

More flags more fun

Crypt Keeper (Marowak) @ Thick Club
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bonemerang
- Knock Off
- Double-Edge
- Substitute

Been trying to get back into PU recently and like all my builds I like to start off with a strange / underused Pokemon since it lets me have fun use stuff that isn't exactly common. I used Marowak because I was thinking of MaroGod for some reason. It hasn't been until now that I realized how powerful this Pokemon realistically is. We all know of its sky rocket attack and sash breaking signature move, but what I've come to appreciate is Substitute. With Substitute and the occasional paralysis support Marowak can now pressure teams to sacrifice a Pokemon to just break its Substitute. In particular, I like using it with Clefairy who can paralyze fast Pokemon, give Stealth Rock support, and pivot into Knock Offs if absolutely necessary. Meta seems really fresh right now.
 
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Anty

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Some mons that have been really good/gotten better recently:


Kadabra @ Focus Sash
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psychic
- Signal Beam / Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Shadow Ball
- Taunt / Dazzling Gleam

Kadabra sort of fell out of favour in the last more passive metagame, however it now thriving in this more offensive metagame. Every common mon on offensive and balance teams gets 2HKOd by the correct coverage move (f AV bouff), and STAB Psychic is stupidly strong even on the Focus Sash variant. The moves are fairly interchangeable, though running Psychic + Shadow ball is pretty much required, for stuff like Metang and Grumpig, and Psychic is much better than Psyshock due to its power. Of the remaining moves, there isn't much of a reason to run both Gleam and Signal Beam, as sash gleam does 90-105 to Cacturne anyway while destroying Vullaby, and it opens up a move slot for stuff like HP Fight for Pawniard and Probopass, Taunt to stop Smeargle and annoy stuff like Clefairy, or other moves like thunder wave and psyshock. Life Orb is also very nice and stupidly powerful, but I find people quickly realise and just RK with something like Floatzel, rather than going out into zebby/rotom and volt switch to break the sash. Without Thunder Wave, Regice is annoying, but otherwise Kadabra can reliably stop every offensive set up sweeper provided you have chipped at them a bit while they set up. In offense matchups, Kadabra is amazing as it really pressures the opponent to sack something to break the sash, or risk playing around with predictions, meaning it can sort of pick what it wants to kill.


Pawniard @ Eviolite
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- Iron Head
- Swords Dance

Pawniard is another A-rank Pokemon which never really got much usage due to some Pokemon and playstyles being common. Monferno is probably its biggest threat rn as its very common, however it is very easy to wear down or even KO with Pokemon such as Leafeon and Regice. I cannot stress enough how Swords Dance is the best last move, as though Pursuit can be nice to catch offensive mons fearing Sucker, there are better pursuiters (murkrow), and Swords Dance makes Pawniard an actual threat rather than just an annoyance. Vs cromuk, which is a huge threat rn, Pursuit pawn just tries to double-crit its way through and gets PP stalled, whereas SD beats it and applies a lot of pressure on Muk whenever it comes into play. Additionally, there is a benefit of destroying teams which rely on Pokemon w/o recover, like Stunfisk, Gabite, and Prinplup, to check Pawniard. Pawn also provides a nice offensive check to Cacturne, and though it isn't as strong as cac, its sucker punch is very powerful.


Cacturne @ Life Orb
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 40 Atk / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
Mild Nature
- Energy Ball
- Dark Pulse
- Focus Blast
- Sucker Punch

This isn't underrated or anything, its just very good rn and definitely my favourite drop. As an offense player, I find it hard not to seriously consider running Cacturne on every team I make as it is just so good right now. Dark Pulse is probably the most spammable moves in the tier rn, and any resist gets destroyed by Focus Blast. Energy Ball is also great, and is much better than Giga Drain due to its power, and obviously Sucker Punch is a staple. I've never really felt max speed is necessary so I run just enough for Mawile, and though you miss out on like unboosted Huntail, extra sucker damage is very valuable as its often a role to KO vs healthy offensive pokemon. Cacturne has performed pretty much every battle, mostly as an early game wallbreaker, though its also great mid/late game to revenge kill. Personally I think this is its best set, though SD is great but has to set up and isn't overly hard to stop, phys based mixed is also a nice set, but if you are using any other set you might as well just change to one of the 3 above. Personally I'm undecided on whether I think it should be s-rank, but its definitely one of the best mons rn.
 

pancake

movement and location
is a Contributor Alumnus
hi
I am here to talk to you about 2 mons today that are very here in the metagame!!!



OK so cacturne really wasn't broken in NU. It had a ton of checks, and most offensive teams had multiple options to check and counter it. But here in this meta where it's offense or bust there are basically 2 options: AV Muk or Monferno. As a result, I feel forced to run Monferno on literally every team because Muk needs more support.

Apparently I'm not alone.

PU Open Round 1:
| 1 | Monferno | 162 | 36.99% | 52.47% |

PU Open Round 2:
| 1 | Monferno | 94 | 40.17% | 51.06% |

PU Open Round 3:
| 1 | Monferno | 49 | 34.51% | 42.86% |

PU Open Round 4:
| 1 | Monferno | 29 | 30.85% | 55.17% |

Monferno is #1 every round.
But this post isn't really about Monferno. This post is about Cacturne.

Cacturne is not used NEARLY as much as Monferno, as it requires a little more team support.

However, Cacturne DESTROYS offense and balance, and stall is bad in this meta. Over a 3rd of the meta running Monferno is proof of the fact that you basically have to run Monferno or lose to Cacturne.

As a result I am suggesting a Cacturne suspect. It's not a mon used much in the meta, but it makes it really hard to teambuild in a meta where you lose to one threat or another unless you have a very specific team. With SuMo coming out so soon, the oppressive teambuilding that Cacturne causes does not make us look back at a meta and say "that was a good meta." That is the goal, isn't it?

This is super controversial so please post opinions!
 
hi
I am here to talk to you about 2 mons today that are very here in the metagame!!!



OK so cacturne really wasn't broken in NU. It had a ton of checks, and most offensive teams had multiple options to check and counter it. But here in this meta where it's offense or bust there are basically 2 options: AV Muk or Monferno. As a result, I feel forced to run Monferno on literally every team because Muk needs more support.

Apparently I'm not alone.

PU Open Round 1:
| 1 | Monferno | 162 | 36.99% | 52.47% |

PU Open Round 2:
| 1 | Monferno | 94 | 40.17% | 51.06% |

PU Open Round 3:
| 1 | Monferno | 49 | 34.51% | 42.86% |

PU Open Round 4:
| 1 | Monferno | 29 | 30.85% | 55.17% |
Monferno is #1 every round. But this post isn't really about Monferno. This post is about Cacturne.

Cacturne is not used NEARLY as much as Monferno, as it requires a little more team support.

However, Cacturne DESTROYS offense and balance, and stall is bad in this meta. Over a 3rd of the meta running Monferno is proof of the fact that you basically have to run Monferno or lose to Cacturne.

As a result I am suggesting a Cacturne suspect. It's not a mon used much in the meta, but it makes it really hard to teambuild in a meta where you lose to one threat or another unless you have a very specific team. With SuMo coming out so soon, the oppressive teambuilding that Cacturne causes does not make us look back at a meta and say "that was a good meta." That is the goal, isn't it?

This is super controversial so please post opinions!
Disregarding how I feel about a cacturne suspect, I would like to contribute that we do have a handful of rag-tag yet viable mons that can be used to check cacturne on offense. Rotom-Frost/Fan both serve as ways of checking Cacturne with Will-O/Blizzard or Air Slash if you wanna play some 50/50s. Pawniard checks Cacturne as well if it's slightly damaged as pawniard has enough bulk to take a sucker punch while doing 58 - 68.6% with Iron head. Vullaby can check physical or non-Nasty Plot Mixed cacturne with u-turn. Lumineon can force Cacturne into some 50/50s with the combination of uturn and toxic and can check it easily with just uturn if cact doesn't carry a +2 adamant max sucker punch. Lastly, gourgeist-super and Def mawile can take on fully physical cacturne with ease if that's what your opponent is running.

That being said, Cacturne has the ability to run a bunch of sets, kill rain and special waters attackers, and sweep unsuspecting teams with its mixed movepool. It is certainly a huge threat in the tier and I think I understand the argument on both sides of this potential suspect. Overall, I think we should keep in mind that it's not whether we like cacturne in the tier but whether we really feel as though it limits teambuilder or is broken here.

Keep this in mind and I look forward to seeing some good discussion.
 
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Anty

let's drop
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Personally rn I am not strongly for or against a suspect, however I do not agree w/ the logic in this post
hi
I am here to talk to you about 2 mons today that are very here in the metagame!!!



OK so cacturne really wasn't broken in NU. It had a ton of checks, and most offensive teams had multiple options to check and counter it. But here in this meta where it's offense or bust there are basically 2 options: AV Muk or Monferno. As a result, I feel forced to run Monferno on literally every team because Muk needs more support.

Apparently I'm not alone.

PU Open Round 1:
| 1 | Monferno | 162 | 36.99% | 52.47% |

PU Open Round 2:
| 1 | Monferno | 94 | 40.17% | 51.06% |

PU Open Round 3:
| 1 | Monferno | 49 | 34.51% | 42.86% |

PU Open Round 4:
| 1 | Monferno | 29 | 30.85% | 55.17% |
Monferno is #1 every round. But this post isn't really about Monferno. This post is about Cacturne.

Cacturne is not used NEARLY as much as Monferno, as it requires a little more team support.

However, Cacturne DESTROYS offense and balance, and stall is bad in this meta. Over a 3rd of the meta running Monferno is proof of the fact that you basically have to run Monferno or lose to Cacturne.

As a result I am suggesting a Cacturne suspect. It's not a mon used much in the meta, but it makes it really hard to teambuild in a meta where you lose to one threat or another unless you have a very specific team. With SuMo coming out so soon, the oppressive teambuilding that Cacturne causes does not make us look back at a meta and say "that was a good meta." That is the goal, isn't it?

This is super controversial so please post opinions!
Using those usage stats to aide your argument is very flawed. Firstly, Cacturne wasn't even legal in round 1 of open, and the average usage of Monferno for rounds 2-4 was 35%, lower than in round 1, and its usage has been falling from round 2. Additionally, those stats do not accurately represent the metagame, for example they are weighted heavily in favour Teddeh's favourite mons. I cannot say whether or not Cacturne has effected Monferno's usage, as firstly we don't have the stats to see, and second its multi factorial (for example Pawniards popularity has gone up).

GeneralAnnoyance mentioned some more checks, but in general Cacturne in no way invalidates playstyles. Before Cacturne, balance wasn't a very reliable playstyle, especially considering the way the metagame was progressing with balance breakers like Stoutland and CM Grumpig getting more popular, and the already high usage of breakers like Leafeon. Cacturne definitely contributes to this and might even what pushed the playstyle over the edge, however that alone is not enough for me (personally) to ban Cacturne, as you are trying to salvage an inconsistent playstyle.

Ultimately, to me, the deciding factor would be Cacturne's matchup vs offense, and whether it is just flat out too good. I am not going to give my opinions on this rn, however if you want a suspect that would be the best way to approach.
 

ManOfMany

I can make anything real
is a Tiering Contributor
Disregarding how I feel about a cacturne suspect, I would like to contribute that we do have a handful of rag-tag yet viable mons that can be used to check cacturne on offense. Rotom-Frost/Fan both serve as ways of checking Cacturne with Will-O/Blizzard or Air Slash if you wanna play some 50/50s. Pawniard checks Cacturne as well if it's slightly damaged as pawniard has enough bulk to take a sucker punch while doing 58 - 68.6% with Iron head. Vullaby can check physical or non-Nasty Plot Mixed cacturne with u-turn. Lumineon can force Cacturne into some 50/50s with the combination of uturn and toxic and can check it easily with just uturn if cact doesn't carry a +2 adamant max sucker punch. Lastly, gourgeist-super and Def mawile can take on fully physical cacturne with ease if that's what your opponent is running.

That being said, Cacturne has the ability to run a bunch of sets, kill rain and special waters attackers, and sweep unsuspecting teams with its mixed movepool. It is certainly a huge threat in the tier and I think I understand the argument on both sides of this potential suspect. Overall, I think we should keep in mind that it's not whether we like cacturne in the tier but whether we really feel as though it limits teambuilder or is broken here.

Keep this in mind and I look forward to seeing some good discussion.
I feel like this bolded part is really important. I would really like to see Cacturne gone, I hate playing against it's Sucker Punch 50-50s and everything, however I don't really think it's broken enough (or even good enough) to warrant a suspect test. Cacturne doesn't really DESTROY offense, it depends completely how you play with Cacturne. If you don't predict right with Sucker Punch, Cacturne can be almost useless in a match up, and just be an easy way for the opponent to bring threats like Monferno into play for free. If you predict right you obviously get a kill, if you don't you die. Everything is kill or be killed with Cacturne and depends entirely on how good the player is at predicting, because it dies in one hit to nearly anything offensive, unlike mawile and pawniard for example. People don't realize it but there's many more ways of dealing with Sucker Punch than just Will-O-Wisp or Mach Punch. You have Toxic, Protect, using setup moves, substitute, switching out, etc....and Sucker only has 8 PP. Not saying that this is healthy but Cacturne is so reliant on it vs faster pokemon that it's hardly something that just destroys teams.

Cacturne does get a few opportunities to get free (non-prediction) kills vs some teams- You can bring it in on a rare double to Stunfisk, Golem, or Gourgeist and threaten them out with Giga/Seed and Dark Pulse. However Specially invested Cacturne, which is more of a threat to slower balances, also is easier to revenge kill. That's because it's Sucker Punch isn't that strong when not fully invested (only doing 50% to Stoutland, for example). Also balance has a decent amount of checks to Cacturne, and balance actually does better vs Cacturne than offense. I also disagree with Anty about balance as a playstyle. Balance is definitely the most common playstyle in the tier and it's also probably the best and most consistent playstyle. Balance offers you hazard removal for lots of dangerous threats, as well as has checks to everything that can't simply be revenge killed on offense. And of course, on balance teams you have Muk to check Cacturne, you have Monferno, you have Vullaby, you have Clefairy, you have Mawile for physically offensive variants. You have other less common stuff like Will-O Rapidash and Articuno and Altaria that give it trouble as well. Cacturne checks are not particularily hard to put on a balance team, and if you fail to put one, you still can hope that you predict right to beat it. It's different than other pokemon like Articuno that you could just lose to because the opponent still has to play well for Cacturne to sweep.

Anyway, while I find that Cacturne's mindgames with Sucker Punch are really annoying, and possibly unhealthy, it's hard to see how Cacturne as a pokemon is broken- it simply isn't that much better than the rest of the tier. I could maybe be convinced of a suspect test based on it being unhealthy for the tier, though.

On a side note: My friends in the ranking team you need to rank Frogadier already, everyone pretty much already considers the eviolite Tspikes set viable SPECS FOUR STABS is decent too but no one believes me :(
 
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Funbot28

Banned deucer.
I have been bringing up the idea of a Cacturne suspect in the PS! room and was weary of other's opinions but know it seems like I am not alone. Cacturne to me holds an extremely similar effect on the meta compared to how Exeggutor had back before it was banned. Due to both of these mons having incredibly high Sp.Atk stats (and Cacturne also has the luxury of having an equally amazing Atk stat as well) it can become so detrimental for teams to handle and switchin to due to the lack of good Special Dark resists besides Vullaby (im sorry, Monferno does not count). This limits the amount of teambuilding and available options one has to construct with due to the overbearing necessity to check/counter Cacturne. Which creates an unhealthy metagame imo and is why Cacturne should be suspected a.s.a.p imo.
 

Anty

let's drop
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Reminder that this thread is for more than just suspects! Now I'm gonna talk about some Pokemon which have been decent in this meta.


Its clear that Trapinch has gained a lot of traction recently as Muk dropping allowed players to finally see its potential to be amazing. As we all know, the standard SDef rest set can take out a huge amount of mons, such as most Electric-types, several Steel-types, and other random Pokemon like Sdef Clefairy, allowing it to function amazingly as a partner to plenty of great sweepers. Muk, as I mentioned earlier is one of its best partners, as Trapinch can easily remove Probopass (with a partner to pop its balloon), weaken or KO Metang depending on sets (allowing Pursuit to pick it off), beat Pawniard if superpower, and also switch in and KO Stunfisk. This is amazing given the lack of Muk checks, as only some bulky Ground-types (Gabite, Marowak and Golem) and Steel-types (Offensive Metang and BP Mawile) can then act as a reliable Muk check during the game, due to fears of double switching to Trapinch. There are of course other non-trappable checks like Misdreavus and Solrock, but you can clearly see how effective Trapinch is as a partner, especially considering that just being on your team makes the opponent reluctant to switch their Muk check in. Trapinch also makes an excellent partner for huge threats such as Duosion, birds like Drifblim and Dodrio, etc. TBH I don't like the severe pressure Trapinch applies in a battle, and I imagine as Trapinch gets even more popular then players will give it more of a thought when teambuilding.


A while ago Ampharos got a big jump in the viability rankings, though no one seems to question it, nobody also seems to use it (other than me and 2x). Ampharos has pretty decent bulk, in fact enough to live Stoutland's CB Return and +2 Monferno's Close Combat with just max HP investment, and on the special side its lack of many weaknesses allow it to take on big Satkers like Rotom-f and Zebstrika. Unfortunately it lacks the resistances or the recovery to solidly check most of those physical Pokemon throughout the battle, but I have found that an Assault Vest set makes quite a good special tank. With AV, you can comfortably invest quite a lot of EVs into bulk, as its amazing special attack makes it decently hard to switch into (for reference, uninvested Ampharos is stronger than max Satk Zebstrika), especially with Electric/Ice/Fighting coverage along with Volt Switch to gain momentum, and the combination of Static + Discharge can be very annoying to play around. The lack of recovery is definitely annoying, but with good hazard removal Ampharos can still last decently through the match. Ik other players also like different sets like Specs which can even 2HKO Stunfisk, and fat Leftovers so it can last a bit longer.


Spintom (aka the fan) is a lot nicer than people originally thought it would be, and I've noticed more people are starting to use it a lot. Spintom has a pretty clear and useful function, to spread burns and check several big threats. Its mostly used on offensive teams which have problems with annoying Sucker Punch Pokemon like Pawniard and as people have seen with Rapidash, Will-o-Wisp is an excellent way to neuter them. Additionally, Spintom also provides a very nice Monferno check for offensive teams which don't want to use Mime as there Scarfer. Rotom also gets past most Flying check as Will-o-Wisp threatens every fat Stealth Rocker players use as their primary Flying check, and its Electric neutrality is also nice. Overall Spintom is a pretty nice option for the Monferno/Rapidash kinda slot offensive teams like to have as an insurance against said Sucker Punch users, while still providing other useful support.
 

Take Azelfie

More flags more fun


Hi, I'm here to talk about much. Muk as we know was one of the recent drops and it has certainly impacted by a lot ever since its introduction. I figured I might as well do this here since it really didn't belong in the top 10 titans thread (where I thought about nominating it) because of how new it is. Now for a little introduction in case you are new Muk has 3 good sets. The first set in a Curse set which uses RestTalk for recovery and Poison Jab to attack / poison stuff. The second set is the Choice Banded set which acts as a really good wallbreaker, the only thing that stops this set from being on the level of Stoutland is that its main STAB cannot hit Steel-types and it doesn't have a good enough speed tier to avoid certain Pokemon. Finally it has an Assault Vest set which basically blanket checks a hell of a lot of special attackers.

Now why is Muk impactful? Well it's really all because of its first set that I mentioned that I'm even bringing this up, Curse + Sleep Talk. There are a few ways of actually beating this set. 1) Being a Steel-type means you automatically wall this set 100% no questions asked. The second is if you have a strong enough super effective STAB. Some examples of Pokemon would be Mr. Mime with Psychic and Marowak with Bonemerang. Those are the two best ways of beating Muk. So why does this matter? Well this really revamps team building from this moment on since you must have one of the two methods to handle Muk. Meaning you are either using a Steel-type or a strong Psychic / Ground-type wallbreaker.

Building with Muk. When you build with Muk you want to be able to eliminate those two problems. Steels are much more annoying than the latter option since they automatically force Muk to switch out or die. So one of the things that has risen to aid Muk in its conquest of destruction is trapping, these two specifically
+
.
These two are very good at removing various Steel-types like Metang and Mawile. While this strategy is pretty braindead (trap + curse + win) it is very effective and hard to actually beat since you can't just stop getting trapped (unless you run Shed Shell.) There is the next issue of offensive Psychic-types like Mr. Mime and Beheeyem. While Probopass can also help to avoid getting with a Psychic STAB there are other ways of solving this issue there were other ways of getting past this issue like adding a Dark-type such as Vullaby or Cacturne. And then there are offensive Ground-type but the majority of them can be handled through natural teambuilding so it shouldn't be too hard to fit on answers for them. If you need some quick examples there is Leafeon, Articuno, and Floatzel for example.

Pokemon that get better because of Muk's presence. Because Muk is forcing a lot of changes to teambuilding there are certain Pokemon that suddenly get more light shed on them. Golem who is already a fantastic Pokemon suddenly gets even better since it prays on both Muk and Muk's counters (Steel-types) as if it weren't splashable enough. Marowak is another offensive Ground-type that gets the same treatment as Golem praying on both Muk and Muk answers. Monferno, while is doesn't tackle Muk as easily fares really well against the majority of the Steel-types such as Pawniard, this is much minor than the other two mentioned but I thought it was worth including.

In case you haven't tried Muk out much yet I'm going to repost two of False. amazing teams. Stole these straight out of the PU Open Team Dump thread.
Probopass @ Air Balloon
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 164 HP / 252 SpA / 92 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Flash Cannon
- Earth Power
- Volt Switch
- Stealth Rock

Muk @ Black Sludge
Ability: Sticky Hold
EVs: 252 HP / 8 Def / 236 SpD / 12 Spe
Careful Nature
- Poison Jab
- Curse
- Sleep Talk
- Rest

Grumpig @ Leftovers
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 80 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psychic
- Focus Blast
- Calm Mind
- Substitute

Golem @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 204 SpD / 52 Spe
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Sucker Punch
- Protect

Floatzel @ Life Orb
Ability: Water Veil
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Waterfall
- Frustration
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Electric]

Gourgeist-Super @ Leftovers
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Foul Play
- Leech Seed
- Will-O-Wisp
- Synthesis
This was a team I made for my Semifinal series vs Advantage. I wanted to bring Curse Muk + Probopass, because I'd experienced success using a Curse Muk + Probopass team made by Megazard, and I wanted to build my own.

Muk is the standard Curse set, with a slightly tweaked EV spread that I made myself. 8 Def EVs avoids the OHKO from Choice Band Stoutland's Frustration after Stealth Rock, and avoids the 2HKO at +2, whilst 12 Spe can be really nice to creep other base 50s such as Audino and Prinplup. Especially with Muk being so slow, sometimes finding opportunities to Rest can be tough if Muk is Pursuit trapped by the likes of Stoutland or Dodrio, having a little extra Speed just gives you a few extra situations in which you can recover safely if needed. Probopass is standard, trapping Steel-types such as Mawile, Pawniard, Metang, as well as opposing Probopass thanks to Air Balloon. It also setting Stealth Rock, and checks normals such as Dodrio. Next I added SubCM Grumpig, which was just another Pokemon that I felt had a good matchup against a variety of bulky offenses, whilst also giving me a blanket check to stuff like Monferno. Golem was next, and was a last minute change that I made after I suddenly became irrationally scared of my Probopass + Gourgeist-XL being overwhelmed by Normal spam, or my Grumpig + Muk being overwhelmed by Electrics. It doesn't have Stealth Rock, because I already have them on Probopass, so I just opted for Protect to gain Leftovers, and scout Choice items if necessary. At this point, the team was looking exceedingly slow, so I decided to add mixed Floatzel as a cool breaker, as well as a general catch-all when facing a variety of offensive teams. I had seen that Advantage had been fond of the Pelipper + Chinchou defensive core, so I opted for both Frustration and Hidden Power [Electric] so that my Floatzel would be able to break as best as possible. Lastly I needed a check to Golem, physically biased Floatzel, and Leafeon, so I opted for Gourgeist-XL, which also rounded out the team nicely by covering both of my Fighting-weak Normal checks.
Muk @ Black Sludge
Ability: Sticky Hold
EVs: 252 HP / 8 Def / 236 SpD / 12 Spe
Careful Nature
- Poison Jab
- Curse
- Sleep Talk
- Rest

Trapinch @ Eviolite
Ability: Arena Trap
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Careful Nature
- Earthquake
- Toxic
- Sleep Talk
- Rest

Mawile @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 248 Def / 12 Spe
Impish Nature
- Play Rough
- Pain Split
- Baton Pass
- Stealth Rock

Zebstrika @ Life Orb
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 29 HP / 0 Atk / 30 SpA
- Thunderbolt
- Volt Switch
- Overheat
- Hidden Power [Grass]

Leafeon @ Lum Berry
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Leaf Blade
- Knock Off
- Swords Dance
- Synthesis

Vullaby @ Eviolite
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Impish Nature
- Knock Off / Foul Play
- Taunt
- Defog
- Roost
This was the team that I build for PDC, and whilst I'm not sure I can solely accredit this team for my victory, I do still think its a pretty solid team. Once again I'm using Muk. With its ability to blanket check 90% of special attackers, whilst also acting as a deadly setup sweeper, and a 100% stop to Calm Mind Clefairy, I find myself hard pressed to find a reason to not fit Muk onto my teams.

I chose RestTalk Trapinch over Probopass for its ability to also trap the likes of Chinchou and non Seed Bomb Gourgeist, since removing those Pokemon supported Leafeon and Zebstrika far better than Probopass trapping Steels would do. Next, I added Mawile as my normal resist. I had seen that PDC was somewhat fond of Choice Band users such as Stoutland, Floatzel and Zweilous. Defensive Mawile was the only Pokemon that I found that could reliably check all three, whilst also chipping away at them with Rocky Helmet. I opted for Pain Split over Swords Dance/Toxic/Knock Off since I didn't find any of the other utility moves useful in testing, and Pain Split was also nice to surprise Pokemon such as Duosion, as well as keep Mawile that bit healthier when facing the likes of Stoutland. I added Zebstrika as a catch all vs offensive teams. I went with Sap Sipper since I already had Trapinch to trap most Electric-types. I opted for Hidden Power [Grass] since Ice coverage seemed useless for the majority of the teams PDC was using, whilst Grass coverage also had the added benefit of hitting Golem, a Pokemon that can definitely be somewhat threatening to this team. Speaking of Golem being a threat, Leafeon was added as my next Pokemon, with one of the main reasons for its addition being that it was a solid Golem check. Outside of this, Leafeon was able to pressure a variety of bulkier teams with Swords Dance, whilst also packing Lum Berry in order to better check Pokemon such as Clefairy, as well as avoid taking chip damage from Toxic Golem. In the last slot I chose Vullaby as I required a blanket check to a massive number of threatening Pokemon such as Monferno, Grumpig and Leafeon, but also required hazard removal. Taunt + Knock Off was specifically for Duosion, since I'm always pretty paranoid about being swept by it, with Vullaby's abilty to lure and knock off items from the likes of Rotom-F, and Clefairy being a nice boon too.


I hope this was insightful / helpful in any sort of way.
 

Anty

let's drop
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As many of you may know from my bitching on discord (check it out!), I think this meta is far from perfect and not in a state we should leave gen 6 in. PU as a tier has better offensive than defensive options meaning you cannot cover every threat defensively, shown by more offensive teams being dominant across the generation, which is normally still balanced, however I believe that one Pokemon pushes these limits; Muk. Muk is the main source of this tiers problems and should be suspected.

This call for a suspect is heavily based off of Muk's Curse Restalk set being broken with the addition of support (notably Trapinch and Probopass). Support aside, Muk has amazing special bulk, allowing it to avoid the 3HKO from many strong special attackers such as Floatzel and Rotom-F. Not only does this mean Muk can check or counter the majority of special attackers in this tier, but it importantly can set up Curses, which allow it to then take physical hits meaning it can take hits from both sides of the spectrum. The best way to check Muk would obviously be with type advantages and Pokemon to get passed its STABs, which is pretty much limited to Psychic-, Ground-, and Steel-types (and some Rock/Poison-types). Of the Psychic-types, only Duosion can actually switch in and beat Muk, others like Grumpig and Mr Mime only 3HKO or lose if they run Psyshock. Ground-types can mostly switch in and win even if the Muk has a curse up, however this is just Golem, Gabite, and Camerupt. Steel-types are obviously immune to Poison Jab, but without set up they run the risk of getting PP stalled due to Rest. Lastly, Black Sludge Arbok, CB Relicanth and SS Crustle can sort of check it as they take little from Poison Jab.

This in theory looks like a solid amount checks, but with more analysis, it isn't enough. Firstly, Muk's best two teammates, Probopass and Trapinch, can invalidate quite a few of these. Probopass can beat a lot of Steels like Mawile and Pawniard, whereas Trapinch beats other Muk checks like Probopass, Grumpig, and Camerupt, and together they can KO Metang. This just shows that running a Steel-type (or some other of its 'counters') isn't enough to beat Muk. Though this may seem like trapping is broken, you have to consider that trapping is only broken with Muk, simple because Muk's other checks do not synergise well together. Most of the checks are Stealth Rock users, and they do not go well together due to a stacking of weaknesses, so if you are running a Steel-type rocker and you want to add a more reliable Muk check, you are severely limited to either weaken team synergy with a Ground-type, or use one of a few select Pokemon as Muk simply lacks offensive checks. Next, if you look at the non-trappable checks like Golem, you can see that pretty much none of those Pokemon have actual recovery (p much just Duosion), which is huge considering Muk's habit of poisoning everything with Poison Jab. Pursuit Pokemon also are decent partners as you can help weaken Ground-types and even get rid of Duosion. This may seem like excessive support, however given that getting off a trap is far from difficult, running all this support is easily justified by an easy sweep. Here is a replay of me playing around vs Metang with Muk till I think it is safe to go to Probopass (regardless of the crit, Metang would be removed):
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-459566530
You may say LST's team wasn't prepared enough for Muk, but it isn't easy for a team to keep Metang and avoid situations like that without having to run a slow rock/ground type which lacks great synergy.

Overall counterplay to Muk is severely limited by partners along with the checks' traits. You can try switching directly into strong wallbreaker or running stuff like Encore/phasing but ultimately they do not last as long as Muk. For these reasons I believe a Muk suspect is the best way forward for the metagame.
 
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Akir

A true villain!
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I was reading Anty's post and trying to decide if the tier would really be better off without Muk when I realized that the showdown room actually has the ability to test just that. So, I will be hosting PU tours in the Showdown room that ban Muk every day this week at 8pm EST (GMT -4).

I was wanting to do this anyway as a personal project, but I figured that announcing it here would let people prepare more so we can get the best results.
 
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