Metagame np: PU stage 8 - Born Under Punches (Machoke is BANNED)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Anty

let's drop
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
I've been quite torn throughout the suspect and beforehand with my views on Machoke, but now I can certainly say I think Machoke should be banned. Ultimately, I don't think our tier can be as competitive as possible with confusion being this dominant. Confusion is a hot topic w/ regards to its competitiveness, but its pretty stupid when paired with an 100 BP move w/ a strong attack, as firstly only one good thing can come in on it, and secondly it can easily fuck up plenty of machoke switch ins, for example if def swanna switches in on offensive machoke with rocks up (very realistic situation), swanna can die if it gets confused twice. Fat BEM needs two confuses (if Machoke is running more creep), same w/ dusion, def clefairy needs 3 if switching in. Though the odds aren't necessarily in Machoke's favour, and generally it is a bad move to stay in, but it shows that DPunch can allow Machoke can beat common defensive 'counters' can actually lose. Though there is other counter play (RKing + Geist), that point mainly shows how dpunch is unhealthy for the tier, and I do not think Machoke's other pros outweigh that.

As an offense player, I can really notice the effects of Dynamic Punch. Firstly, it puts a huge risk on switching out to something that should check it like synth leafeon/tank mawile or even in some situations WP golem, as half the time the switch will end up self hitting and dying. Secondly, if you do stay in and try to sack something to weaken it then a good portion of the time Machoke can come out much healthier than it should as you don't get many of your moves off. Additionally, Machoke can often find a way onto the field due to its ability to check a huge amount of the metagame.

Ik the fun argument isn't very good (especcially not on its own), but really Machoke makes the tier less enjoyable (and thats coming from someone who uses confuse ray for reqs)
 
galbia and I decided that as per transitivity having been broken for lower tiers, PU will not adopt NU's modification to the BP clause as we feel that the addition of this clause would hinder PU more than it would help it as the strategies that led to the ban in NU are not broken in PU nor are they unhealthy for the metagame.
 
The problem with Machoke does not come from anywhere within the actual attributes of the Pokemon. It's offensive pressure, defensive utility, and coverage do not come anywhere near the level necessary for it to be ban-worthy. The only reason why we are talking about this suspect is because of Dynamic Punch and its ability to potentially get around its checks. While laddering, I definitely had games where I won due to confuses preventing recovery or not getting necessary chip damage on Machoke, and I had games where I lost games because of the same thing. But this can be said about any other kind of hax only that this time it is with certainty that you will put your opponent into this situation of choosing whether to risk the confusion.

The offensive sets (both w/ and w/o Dynamic Punch) are excellent role consolidators that allow a team to check numerous threats in one slot due to its great bulk, power, and priority. I think everyone agrees that this set is incredibly healthy for the metagame, even with No Guard Offensive, Machoke can be worn down easily enough through Knock Off cutting its defenses, team's reliance to take powerful hits, and susceptibility to Spikes. It is checked easily enough by Swanna, Coblur Psychics and Ghosts, etc. for it to be able to straight up win games.

Now onto the set that is really being suspected: the No Guard RestTalk set. I used this for the first half of laddering and this is the set where I got those aforementioned wins from hax so I know that the confusion does happen often enough to have a noticeable effect on the tier and competitiveness. When I didn't get the confusion turns however, I found that the passive nature of the set made it extremely vulnerable and just as susceptible to chipping as the offensive set is since it has to take more hits in case of rolling Rest on a Sleep Talk and having to wait two turns before you get complete control over your moves.

I can see both sides of the argument because I used both sets that show two completely different sides of the same Pokemon. At this moment however, I feel that RestTalk set's passive nature, real lack of kill ability beyond getting multiple confusions without any other game plan, and potential to give free turns to the opponent cause me sway more to the No Ban side but I will be monitoring this thread to see if others have different opinions and options that I have not thought of yet.
 

pancake

movement and location
is a Contributor Alumnus
I am not sure if I will be able to get reqs because I'm not a very good ladder player and I am having some trouble; I'm not very patient. However, I still believe that a lot of people respect me as a player and I feel as though people respect my opinion of the metagame, so I would like to post here about my opinion on Machoke and my stance on this suspect. Instead of actually voting myself, I hope I will be able to convince you that banning Machoke is healthy for the metagame. Please read the whole post ;3

First, I would like to address some of the arguments for keeping Machoke in the tier which I believe are invalid or I just do not like.

"Machoke is healthy for the tier and without it a bunch of mons in the tier would get out of hand." - The reason I believe this argument is invalid is because it is not like Machoke is the only check for threats in this tier. For example, Machoke checks Misdreavus. Regice also checks Misdreavus. Misdreavus isn't broken because Machoke is gone.

“We’re about to get drops that counter Machoke perfectly like Rotom-S, Muk, and Pelipper.” - First, this has already been covered in this thread; it is not a valid argument for the reasons stated by Anty and Megazard. But in addition, Machoke’s coverage is amazing. It can run surprise Guts Ice Punch, Earthquake, and Thunder Punch respectively, OHKOing or 2HKOing all of these Pokemon while easily taking hits from them with the right spread. This just shows how invalid this argument is. DO NOT LET THIS ARGUMENT INFLUENCE YOUR OPINION. AT ALL. (If this was not clear).

OK, here’s some more valid arguments against the Machoke ban.

“If we ban Machoke, Monferno will become way too meta-centralizing because if you don’t use it, you lose to bulky Normals.” - OK, I was trying to think of a way to say this argument without it sounding bad, but it probably sounds bad anyway. Sorry. First of all, you forgot Mienfoo and Scraggy. :I Anyway, how BAD is it that Monferno is our only super-viable Fighting-type? These bulky Normal-types that this argument talks about are usually set-up bait for many Pokemon in the tier and are easily weakened by powerful other attacks like Stoutland’s Return. Not to mention, this is only talking about STAB fighting type moves; there are many other Pokemon that can use Fighting-type moves in this tier, like Simisear and Stoutland. In addition, most teams don't use Machoke or Monferno, and statistically most of them still win against bulky Normal-types. Overall, this is a valid argument, but certainly not a reason to vote no ban.

“You can play around Machoke if you are prepared.” - Yes, I get this argument. However, a lot of this ‘playing around’ usually can be PP stalled or beaten by Dynamic Punch confusion giving those competitive 50/50s. Not only that, isn’t this true for all Pokemon in this tier? Yes, I get that the fact that this is true for all Pokemon in the tier could be taken as a portion of the other argument, but it’s clear that it’s harder to play around Machoke than most or all other threats in this tier.

Now some arguments for the ban, which is (obviously) what I support.

"Machoke makes the tier less fun." - OK, OK, I know this argument is kind of bad. No Guard Dynamic Punch sucks and confusion is a terrible mechanic. Isn't the goal of this video game to have fun? It's not like this is our future and we have to be super successful at this to get anywhere in life. The goal of this game is to have fun, and Machoke prevents this. If this isn't reason to ban Machoke, I don't know what is.

"Machoke fits on too many teams and playstyles." - I feel like others have already stated this point, but it is important to note that Machoke fits on stall with the likes of Clefairy, balance (with virtually anything), and also hyper offense, as it enjoys wreaking havoc with Spikes. Not only does it fit on almost all playstyles, it's a blanket check which can check so many things in this tier. I will echo the words of someone that I forgot right now (if it's you, tell me); "I see a lot of teams in the pu squad dump thread that say 'I added Machoke because I needed a check to X, Y, and Z." Sure, perhaps this is the definition of a blanket check, but it's a blanket check with an offensive presence that fits on all playstyles. Sounds broken to me.

"Machoke is oppressive to the teambuilding environment." -

ManOfMany said:
For a balanced team to be successful against Machoke, they either need to run a Gourgeist-Super, or run two Machoke checks (usually one a switch-in, the other something that can hit it really hard) so something like swanna + grumpig or grumpig + mawile. I get that there's nothing wrong with preparing for an S-rank pokemon, but what happens is a LOT of teams end up looking the same or similar.
MoM explains this point perfectly; there's basically three varieties of teams in this meta. Gourgeist-Super teams, two Machoke checks teams, or HO with like two birds. If you don't bring one of these, I feel like I lose to Machoke. Sure, I guess this is controversial, but Machoke's removal from the metagame would result in some freedom with teambuilding. Grass-types that are not Gourgeist-XL would get a chance to shine. I can go back to running Offensive Swanna regularly. Do you see what I mean?

"Confusion means that Machoke can break its checks sometimes." - As you'll see in the battle, Machoke can beat its checks by either shrugging off attacks from them or having them hit themselves in their confusion. I feel like I've covered this already, but it is a core reason of why it's broken.

I think these arguments are the core of why Machoke should be banned, but here's a replay that perfectly shows why Machoke is broken: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pususpecttest-395166449 vs. ShuckleDeath

A few things happened here with Machoke to note;

-He could have weakened my Machoke with his Metang, but he hit himself twice due to those competitive 50/50s and didn’t get off any damage.

-It was impossible to play around near the end of the battle because from full, even Politoed’s Scarf Hydro + Stoutland’s CB Return couldn’t kill it. He tried to double into Stoutland predicting my Lapras, but I literally just went for Dynamic Punch and won.

-Stunfisk’s Static scares out many other physical attackers in the tier. However, Machoke doesn’t care. It could rest up and beat it 1v1 due to Knock Off. This is true for the majority of the walls in the tier.

This shows in action just some of the reasons why I feel as though Machoke should be banned. It’s not just this battle that things like this happen; it’s most battles.

TL;DR: [21:46:52] Chrisloud:D punch makes tier not fun

thanks for reading :)
 
So there have been a lot of good arguments made, and basically VPP and ManofMany have basically made it pointless for me to go into the tedious details with my argument because they cover 99.9% of anything I could ever want to say about the argument. I'll just elaborate on some points to try to add a slightly new perspective I guess. (I am voting BAN btw.)

RNJESUS: Machoke calls upon the powers of my laddering deity Rnjesus multiple times within any given game. Not only does DynamicPunch put non-ghosts into a 50/50 position, but it also utilizes a 2/3 chance of attacking and 1/3 chance of choosing the preferred move while it is sleep talking.

Losing Pressure on Rest: Yes, absolutely. You lose pressure on rest. However, your machoke has just gone back to full and it is a BULKY mon. This will potentially give it the chance to pull a crucial dpunch or knock off while asleep that will allow it to take back the offensive pressure.

Speaking of Pressure: Let's say you switch your swanna out into machoke to eat a d-punch. Because you have been playing carefully you have pressured your opponent to be unable to get up rocks (thank god, because swanna is your defogger AND machoke swithchin). As the machoke switches out into something like articuno or zebstrika, let's say, you hit yourself in confusion. That's about 25% you just lost for free, assuming you've done everything right to prevent rocks from being up. But it's not just 25% you lost. You've also lost PRESSURE that could potentially be more valuable than 25%. If this situation repeats and you lose 50% for free you no longer have any pressure with swanna because roost is mandatory. If this is all happening while rocks is up (because your machoke counter is your defogger), then you are more than doubly screwed because you now take 50% for free, rocks stay up, and you have to switch and take rocks damage. Oh and speaking of the Swanna example...

Teambuilding: Machoke limits teambuilding, as has been discussed previously. But one more point to add is that Swanna, considered the best way to deal with machoke other than gourgeist (and ofc my boi dustox), is a defogger. If you can't get off defog because of switching into dpunch and confusing, then your disadvantage is growing. Of course, you CAN run another defogger / spinner, but that is a straight up SILLY thing to have to do on account of one mon in the tier. Seriously, if you choose to use swanna as your defogger you should either submit your games to rnjesus or run another hazard control??? Man I guess I'm going to dustox for the reliable defog.

Speaking of Dustox: I think dustox could be a fine mon, but only if there were more fighting types to justify it. If you run it for machoke, then unlike swanna which can cover machoke and dustox, dustox seems as though it would be only for machoke. The only other things I really see it checking are roselia and simisage, but let's be real: if you run it, it is ONLY for machoke. That would be silly to have to run a mon with underwhelming base stats to wall machoke, espeically when there are so many physical attackers in the tier it CAN'T switch into, like monferno, stoutland, golem, dodrio, and bouffalant to name a few. Just for anyone who might think dustox is a good reason not to ban (idk if there are any and I don't care to find out lol)

Addressing Monferno being the only fighting type: There are only two big fighting types to begin with. Cmon 2 vs 1 isn't a huge deal. A lot of teams have neither monferno nor machoke. It's silly to say that monferno will become super prominent. There are still things like gourgeist, golem, and mawile. Probopass does a pretty good job of dealing with the fatter ones. Stoutland pressures those kinds of things. I personally use a mixed basculin set that can eat through those fat audino semi-stall or stall teams. It's really not the worst thing is the world to not be able to mindlessly slap machoke onto a team to fix issues with those kinds of teams (obviously not 100% true, but its easy enough to use offensive pressure + confusion hax somewhere down the line to eventually win against those fat teams).

Hopefully I have been able to give a new and helpful perspective on the various issues that have been explained so eloquently by my peers. I would also like to leave a final note that I initially was very skeptical of the machoke ban and that for all my joking on PS, I actually forced myself to use an objective perspective before making any decisions about how to vote.
 

Akir

A true villain!
is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Community Leader Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Staff Alumnus
I have seen this debate point in both this thread and in the PS lobby and I feel the need to address it. Arguing against the Machoke ban by stating that "without Machoke we would only have 1 or 2 or 3 viable Fighting Types" is a very weak argument in my opinion. It strikes me as a novelty argument more than anything. There are a couple concerns behind this argument however, so I'm going to address every point I have seen play into this.

1. Less Fighting types means that Normal types will run rampant!

If we ban Machoke, we will still have plenty of Fighting in the tier. Fighting is a very common coverage option on a lot of mons and PU is no different. I actually sat down and counted the number of viable PU mons that I could reasonably see running Fighting moves to a usable effect and the number was: 23. There will be no shortage of super-effective options for Normal Spam.

On top of that, Machoke really isn't a Normal check in the first place. If anything, Monferno was more of a Normal check.
252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. 248 HP / 140+ Def Eviolite Machoke: 166-196 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
This is a risky switch-in, and Machoke doesn't really outspeed any Normal mons either so I really don't see this argument.

2. With Machoke gone, Monferno will be all over the place! Monferno will just replace Machoke!

That would be some lazy teambuilding. Monferno and Machoke have 2 very different roles! Monferno could not be as versatile of a gluemon as Machoke can and is nowhere near as bulky. Monferno does not fit directly into the same slot that Machoke does and shouldn't even be tried. Machoke is bulkier while still being a strong hitter and has access to Knock Off. Monferno is a fast-ish attacker with U-turn and Swords Dance with the rare special set. The biggest thing these two have in common is that they are both Fighting Types.

3. But then we would only have those "1 or 2 or 3" viable Fighting Types! I want variety in my types!

This is actually the point that I mainly wanted to address. This point has no business in a suspect test. This point does not cover any of the actual reasons for the suspect and strikes me as a pure novelty discussion. Machoke is being suspected because the council believes that it's unhealthy enough in the metagame to warrant such a thing and that is what we should be thinking about.

In a suspect test, you should be considering points such as: "How does this mon affect the tier in terms of gameplay and teambuilding?" Other good points are things like "How easily can I counter this mon?" and "What does the tier get out of this mon's presence?" This point fails to address the metagame and the suspect in any real way.

The suspect should be about how/if Machoke is healthy for the PU metagame. This argument point is weak, sometimes objectively incorrect, and at worst detracts from any meaningful discussion about the actual implications of having Machoke in the tier. I am sick of seeing this argument to be blunt, and shiver at the idea of people voting No Ban for the sake of non-essential variety within the PU Fighting types. The amount of Fighting Types in the tier is entirely moot for this suspect. We have plenty of other options for Fighting moves and other Fighting types, so please do not consider the number of Fighting Types in the tier when voting. Instead, consider how Machoke affects the metagame and whether or not it is unhealthy and vote from there.

Thank you for reading my rant...and no, this was not directed at anyone. I meant this in general, and do not mean to target anyone.
 
Not really much more to be added to this discussion since i feel like a lot of posts in this thread really sum up that Machoke is not a good addition to the PU tier. You can say that the offensive set is not really that hard to deal with, and you can check it easily with a lot of Pokemon like Gourgeist-XL who doesn't give a shit or even stuff like Stunfisk and many more you all know. All this because Machoke usually gets worn down pretty quickly, is grounded, and weak to passive damage without leftovers. It's also easy to trade kills with it since it is so slow (for example it takes heavy damage from Stoutland or Floatzel and kills it then is forced out and/or to die next turn) and stuff like VolTurn, a quite popular style of offense in the tier i would add, is a pain for it as well.

But you all know that and the game breaking set is for sure Rest + Sleep Talk, which trades offensive power and coverage for the ability to outlast pretty much any Pokemon without a strong STAB move or a super effective move and the ability to Knock Off everything it wants for the entirety of the game. It is especially annoying because the tier doesn't have anything to really deal with the move that doesn't take a million from Dynamicpunch or is Swalot and we are often forced to use subpar sets like Max HP Swanna. Gourgeist-XL, again, can wall it but it still doesn't like to take Knock Off and really it is impossible to kill Machoke.

To all of this enter Dynamicpunch that means you won't be able to hit Machoke with your Pokemon 50% of the time so yeah really get this out of the tier RIGHT NOW.

I would also like to add that Machoke is a bad check to Pawniard since you lose your item and easily lose to a bad Sleep Talk roll or a flinch and that SPECULATION about future metagames doesn't really have a place in suspect discussions.
 
who doesn't use own tempo avalugg? that thing is a counter lmao

nah forreal though, i am kinda disappointed with the ban because the tier now lacks the only really decent rock / dark resist. so I'm expecting to see a rise in pawnaird, golem, relicanth and even rampardos usage. Secondly, i can see mindless offense become a much bigger hit now that one of the best checks to some of the offensive threats we have now is gone. On other notes, expecting to see more grumpigs and less gourgeists and things like dodrio, stoutland and bouffalant to come up a bit in usage.

If at some point in the future we get the chance to ban confusion (because that's the broken mechanic here), I'd love to re-suspect machoke because I feel it is a great addition to the tier and now the tier has literally 0 good mono fighting types, which will make balance an absolute bitch to build.

This isn't a post of all negatives however, as I don't mind not facing dpunch as often (although I found it easier to play around) but it will make games more competitive as a result of it.

and to round this post off, here's a cool set you should probably try:

Mienfoo @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Drain Punch
- Calm Mind
- Baton Pass
- Substitute

Sub + CM pass to other recipients now that the tier lacks a really good fighting type, try this bad boy out if you want synergy. I'd advise partnering it with articuno as articuno with +1 +1 is scary as fuck, but it can also work with other things whilst also checking rock types and having regenerator to do this throughout the match.

Enjoy the machoke-less meta n__n
 

pancake

movement and location
is a Contributor Alumnus
Hey, I'm happy to see Machoke finally out of this meta! Sure, like Teddeh said, it does leave us with a lack of a decent dark or rock resist.

However, never fear, the other fighting-types that people forget are in the tier are here!



Scraggy @ Eviolite
Ability: Shed Skin
EVs: 236 HP / 252 SpD / 20 Spe
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- Rest
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off

Specially Defensive Rest Shed Skin Bulk Up Scraggy (SPDRSSBUS) seems really nice in a meta lacking Fighting-types. This set has enough speed to outspeed Audino in order to avoid Encore. It takes Special hits really well; e.g.

252+ SpA Life Orb Electrode Thunderbolt vs. 236 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Scraggy: 91-109 (30.3 - 36.3%) -- 47.8% chance to 3HKO

and it can shrug off burns due to Shed Skin. Great set and Pokemon that I expect both to see a rise in usage.

Meanwhile, another thing that seems really nice thanks to Machoke leaving.


Misdreavus @ Eviolite
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power Fighting
- Taunt

A set that was great on offense before and is still great. However, now that Machoke has left, Misdreavus' guaranteed counter is gone! There are still counters and checks to Misdreavus, but it is much harder to beat than it was before, in a meta where Machoke was on a lot of the teams. Dazzling Gleam might become popular in the first few days of the new meta to check to new Fighting-types, like Scraggy or Mienfoo, that will likely be running around.

Anyway, those are two Pokemon that I think get a lot better due to the Machoke ban. Thanks :)

e: thanks marogod and all of the pu chatroom guys for help fixing this post :)
 
Last edited:
Despite just having a suspect, I'd like to propose we also ban speed pass like NU has just done or at the very least suspect it. Ninjask with speed pass is easily one of the easiest win plays I've ever played with, whilst also having very very few counters. There have been several games whereby i have lead with ninjask, got up a sub on rocks and then passed to bouffalant and just swept effortlessly. The speed boosts make it near impossible for the pokemon to be revenge killed and having a variety of sweepers that can benefit from this makes for it to be nothing but bad for the tier. I've promoted the use of one of my teams which I shared on the sample teams thread, and I suggest you try it out for yourself here:
Ninjask @ Leftovers
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Substitute
- Baton Pass
- Defog

Bouffalant @ Leftovers
Ability: Soundproof
Happiness: 0
EVs: 216 HP / 16 Atk / 140 SpD / 136 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Substitute
- Earthquake
- Swords Dance
- Frustration

Marowak @ Thick Club
Ability: Rock Head
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Fire Punch

Swoobat @ Kee Berry
Ability: Simple
EVs: 248 HP / 156 Def / 80 SpD / 24 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Roost
- Signal Beam
- Stored Power

Servine @ Eviolite
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 248 HP / 184 SpA / 76 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Leaf Storm
- Substitute
- Synthesis
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Prinplup @ Eviolite
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Defog
- Toxic
- Stealth Rock

and here's a replay of it sweeping with relative ease: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-400088149
I would like to draw attention to this now rather than later.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top