Metagame np: PU stage 8 - Born Under Punches (Machoke is ＢＡＮＮＥＤ)

[g]

The PU council has decided to suspect test Machoke!
Not really much to say, a lot of you called it, but here's why. Fighting is an excellent typing in PU and its strong coverage, especially thanks to Knock Off, make it a very tough Pokemon to reliably wall, and it's great natural bulk in combination with Eviolite make it hard to take down in one hit or even two hits at times.
Main flaws of the Pokemon A.K.A why it isn't banned already are the fact that the offensive set gets worn down easily by status and hazards and residual in general like most Eviolite Pokemon and that the defensive set somewhat lacks raw power, and not specialised sets struggle against popular switch-ins such as Gourgeist-XL and Swanna (which are possible to get around i guess). The defensive set right now is the most popular since it can still wall a good portion of the metagame including Top Dog Fridge Rotom-F, and is harder to wear down and KO.
And also, I didn't forget it, one BIG issue that has been brought up is its access to 100% accurate Dynamic Punch, which allows Machoke to bullshit through beat some of its checks through confusion and punish the opponent as well.

Also Dynamic Punch is not on the table to be banned yeah.

some Machoke sets so you can have fun

DEFENSIVE BEHEMOTH:
Machoke @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 248 HP / 140 Def / 120 SpD
Impish Nature
- Dynamicpunch
- Knock Off
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

OFFENSIVE CONFUSIONMACHINE:
Machoke @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 160 HP / 252 Atk / 24 Def / 28 SpD / 44 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dynamicpunch
- Knock Off
- Bullet Punch
- Thunder Punch / Ice Punch

HIPSTER GUTS:
Machoke @ Eviolite
Ability: Guts
EVs: 160 HP / 252 Atk / 24 Def / 28 SpD / 44 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Bullet Punch / Bulk Up
- Thunder Punch / Ice Punch

The suspect test will last for two weeks. The deadline will be Monday, July 11th.

The requirements for this test will be the same as last time.The reqs will be 2800 coil with a B value of 9.0. Also you need at least 75 gxe

GXE N
100 18
90 25
85 32
80 46
78 58
75 91
72 222

To find out how many matches it'll take for you specifically, take your GXE, and put it into this formula
N=9.0/log2(40*GXE/2800) In which you replace GXE with your current GXE

Council Reqs are 2000 COIL

Machoke is allowed on the ladder

tagging The Immortal for a ladder please

***PSA***: Put effort into your posts. Any posts lacking content will be deleted and possibly infracted.

 

[Grim]

Well this has been anticipated for a while and I'm sure many people can't wait to ban Machoke. I used to be against banning Machoke itself since the only thing about Machoke the council deemed banworthy was Dynamic Punch for a long time. However, I do think I will be voting ban now for a number of reasons. Machoke in itself is not strictly broken, it's just a very solid Pokemon with good bulk and great typing for PU, making it very easy to slap on a team and check a big part of the meta while being annoying with Dynamic Punch and Knock Off shenanigans. It's pretty much the face of the lazy teambuilding trend that a lot of people have been seeing in PU lately, because why spend time building a solid team when you can use Machoke + Chinchou + Swanna, for example. Speaking of Chinchou and Swanna, these Pokemon are good examples of Machoke's influence on the meta. Everyone uses Machoke, so everyone uses Swanna, so everyone uses Chinchou, so everyone uses all three. I think most of us can agree that Machoke's influence on the meta is generally not a good influence. I for one am definitely looking forward to a fresh, confusionless meta.
That said, banning Machoke doesn't have to be good for the meta at all. If Machoke gets kicked out of PU the only viable Fighting-type we'd have left is Monferno. This is just speculation but I can definitely see a majority of the teams using Monferno because they don't want to lose to Audino or even Regigigas bullshit. Might also see a big drop of popularity of other Fire-types just because Monferno would be that important. Unlike higher tiers we don't have a pool of lower tier Pokemon to replace our banned ones with so I think this is a real possibility (our viable Fighting-types already are NFE's lol). And then there's the fact that Machoke is arguably not even broken. It has a pool of viable counters and checks such as Gourgeist-XL, Swanna, Altaria, Mr. Mime, etc. It's just the uncompetitive aspect and the way it's shaping the tier that people find banworthy. I like the idea of banning to create an overall as good as possible tier instead of just banning what is broken though, so even if it might be risky to shake up the meta so close to the end of this generation I will probably be voting ban.

 

[Teddeh]

Well Already made reqs, just gonna post a few comments about machoke + the ladder and how people were dealing with it as a result.

From my experience on the ladder, I used machoke the whole suspect as it is what you're supposed to do. What i found is that teams were very lazily built, with minimal checks and on some occasions, no fighting resists whatsoever. Secondly, people were sacking their fighting resists very easily and then complaining later in the game that machoke was too good to play against... Derp. The teams that had genuine machoke checks with things like gourgeist or CM clefairy, it did virtually nothing the whole game and it didn't do anything and when I was facing offensive teams, machoke was pressured heavily by a variety of things like mr mime, articuno, or swanna. So it leads me to a simple conclusion about the ladder:
If you don't prepare for machoke / don't want to prepare for it - you can't complain if it steam rolls your team. It's an S rank pokemon, you have to prepare for it just like any other threat.

My thoughts leading up to the test, i think most people know but I will repeat myself so that this thread knows how I feel. I think that the offensive sets that machoke provides are very good, but only against particular playstyles. They lack longetivity throughout the game and will often be chipped away very easily. Despite having a powerful dynamic punch to break through slower cores, it doesn't beat any of its counters unless of pure confusion hax + the machoke player sits in spamming their moves hoping for the confusion. By which case, most of the time things like swanna / beheeyem / gourgeist will win this 99% of the time. Furthermore the offensive set is not what makes machoke so good. It is hard to fit on teams if it does not add to the defensive core and for that reason, the bulky rest-talk set has taken over.

The rest-talk set is extremely nice to have in the tier whereby you have virtually 0 resists to bolt-beam, or things that can really stand up to water-ice coverage. Having machoke on the team is a wonderful thing for balance team building whereby it adds a bulky pseudo resist to a multitude of threats in this tier such as regice, floatzel, rotom-f, monferno and that's just to name a few. Not only that, but it has an offensive presence as a bulky wall, which makes it even better. Adding onto this, it has its amazing coverage of dynamic punch + knock off, which are the 2 most spammable moves in the tier, with rest-talk there's a 66% chance you'll pull one of them and it's going to do something good for your team if your opponent switches out. Not to mention that machoke has the option to invest in its spdef / defense, speed, power, it can literally do anything. It is a wonderful pokemon to add to any team as a pseudo resist. However, this doesn't look at the negative effects that machoke applies to the tier.

I can admit that there is a team building strain around machoke, like there is with any S rank or top pokemon in the tier, however I always feel that people overstate how much machoke affects team building when there are a lot of counter measures that I personally use (I built over 20+ teams during pupl, not all of them were perfect and they re-used certain cores but not one of them was weak to machoke) and people are choosing to use the lesser checks. Things like grumpig / arbok are not counters and should not be treated as so, if you aren't going to add another machoke check to your team, you are going to be weak to it. And there are a variety of mons that take advantage of machoke and setup on it / heavily pressure the machoke's members team. Things like Mr. Mime, Clefairy, Duosion, Articuno, Beheeyem (big threat of late), Swanna, Arbok and even Mawile. It's not even like these pokemon are bad. And if you want to use a passive option, you have defensive mawile + psychic type core which i personally used or just slapping on a Gourgeist-Super.

I can also certainly admit that confusion is a dumb mechanic that makes machoke annoying to face, but i think it can be played around by switching out and pivoting. Yet I also know that confusion is used to get around its checks and counters to obtain free switches, i admit it's not the most ideal mechanic, but it is manageable so far and we are nitpicking at ways to improve our tier.

However i feel that the benefits that machoke adds to the tier in ways of role compacting in team building is far greater than the strain it puts on teams. I think it provides great benefits in ways of team building and it has plenty of counter-measure, however most people are not using it. Overall I will be voting for a NO BAN because I feel it adds way more than it takes away from our tier, despite confusion being gay as fuck.

 

[CrusherWake]

This suspect test is a weird one since the pokémon itself isn't the main problem. The problem is that there are not enough Pokémon who can reliably switch in to Machoke without getting knocked off their Eviolite or are just haxed to death by confusion. Therefore the problem lies in the combination of the moves Knock off + Dynamicpunch and Machoke's bulk in general, which allows it to withstand damage from very tanky mons like Avalugg. After that he can rest off the damage and continue to wreak havoc.

I found that defending against Machoke, whilst definitely possible, was also a nuisance because there are not a lot of options. Especially because Knock off is such a good move in PU (the tier with the most Eviolite-users). I ran a team with full def Relicanth and Gourgeist and another one with Own Tempo Avalugg. The first team was pretty resistant, even though Relicanth gets 1v1'd by Machoke, with Gourgeist I usually forced their Machoke to rest and then I could switch to Banded Dodrio to threaten him with the Brave Bird. Though it is important to notice that Jolly scarf Dodrio needs a high roll in order to knock Machoke out with Brave Bird. That's crazy! Avalugg can stand his own as well, provided you give it Own Tempo. But the problem with all these sitations is that it makes the game stale. I've had several matches where we had 20 moves just resting and recovering and synthesising away until one of us had enough and try to switch out, only to get hit by a Dynamicpunch/Knock Off and another mon down.

Now the interesting thing with Machoke is the fact that he annoys you when you put him in your team. I mean yes, it's annoying to defend AGAINST him where you have to put that fat pumpkin on your team or else you'll lose, but it's much more annoying when you're doing 20% with Dynamicpunch to a Knocked off Clefairy, only to see the poor thing get confused 4 times in a row to knock him out. It's not fun, it's not admirable, you don't feel like you played well after you won with Machoke, it's just sad.

The main problem I feel with Machoke in this tier is that there are not enough reliable Fairy types that can resist both moves, nor are there fast taunt users which can resist his attacks while also denying him to rest up. And even if you have checks against him, he can confuse you to death while still doing a lot of damage. His bulk is too strong to withstand him with pure tanks, while status will also get negated by Rest, making it a stalemate and effectively a game of chicken who will switch out first. While I do acknowledge that confusion mechanics have a lot to do with Machoke being too good for this tier, we can't forget that it's probably the only one in the tier which can succesfully use confusion to his advantage, if only because Confuse Ray requires 1 move slot and doesn't deal damage in the process. Therefore I think luck is too much of a factor with Machoke and I would have to vote for a BAN.

 

[EnemyJurist]

So I have not achieved reqs yet. I am as of yet undecided on my vote (if I even get a vote! x.x). However, I would like to bring something up that was discussed in the PU room. Basically, Akir phrased it best: this suspect is a lose-lose situation. One way, if we lose Machoke, we lose an important part of the meta that helps bulky offense, and we lose one of our only viable fighting-type Pokemon, which makes it harder to deal with certain fatmons like Audino (once Monferno+other wallbreakers are removed). On the other hand, if we let it stay, we continue with an uncompetitive move being wildly used, with Machoke checks losing to Machoke due to confusion hax, and with Machoke generally being really hard to kill. Most offensive mons cannot OHKO it, and it can also do a lot of damage in return with Knock Off or Dynamic Punch. It also has basically just one actual counter, Gourgeist. I can see Machoke staying or leaving based on what the tier looks like right now, as it has its place.

However, a problem emerges. At the end of this month, the usage stats will be calculated, and there are three mons that are close to dropping from NU, all of which would help balance out Machoke a little. Rotom-Fan, Pelipper, and Muk are these three, and they can help the tier check Machoke a little better. All three of them resist Dynamic Punch, and all three can hit Machoke hard with their moves. Pelipper was in PU for a long time and was one of the primary counters to Machoke. It has STAB Air Slash and Hurricane which it can use to force Machoke out (although Flying STAB is usually foregoed for U-Turn, but it is an option). Rotom-Fan also has STAB Air Slash, which also forces Machoke out (252 Spa Rotom does about 60% min to standard Machoke). Finally, Muk can hit Machoke hard with its strong STAB Gunk Shot, and Muk doesn't care about Knock Off removing its item due to Sticky Hold. All three or any of these three might drop within less than two weeks, and I feel like there might be some merit in letting them drop and seeing how the meta is with them. Sure, one mon dropping isn't going to make Machoke suddenly terrible, but it might help nerf it to a point where it isn't quite so dominant.

I doubt that we would ever put a suspect on hold, but there might be some wisdom in extending the deadline a bit to figure out the meta with the drops.

 

[MZ]

There's a couple of arguments here I'm not a fan of. First of all, we can't wait for NU to drop stuff. Machoke is an issue now, we need to get rid of it now rather than praying for helpful drops that might not even come. We're suspecting it now for a reason, waiting for Muk doesn't help and both Muk and Rotom-F aren't that much better at switching into Dpunch with rocks up than what we currently have.
The second is that Machoke is good for the meta now, and losing it will be worse for the meta. It's a good mon sure, and obviously not broken just cancerous with Dpunch. But is the meta going to spiral out of control without it? Machoke doesn't even beat stall which pretty much always runs Gourgeist, in fact a lot of semistall builds are made around machoke being an all purpose check to things like rotom and floatzel so they aren't forced to run other checks. Audino won't become unmanageable, and, if by some miracle it does, we can just ban that too. I want to vote ban on Machoke because Dpunch is uncompetitive and something so demonstrably stupid is just unhealthy. I don't understand how Machoke is integral to the meta, so positive in its presence that this somehow justifies keeping a facet of the mon that pretty much everybody agrees is totally uncompetitive and worth a ban. We don't need it, the meta can just shape around something else. And if you think keeping Audino in check is good for the tier, then you should also consider how forcing heavy Dpunch switchins (most of which still lose to machoke if unlucky) is "bad for the tier".

 

[CryoGyro]

Being relatively new to the metagame, I'm not sure how deserving I am of posting my opinion, but screw it, I'm doing it anyway.

The reasons for this suspect are definitely unfortunate; Machoke would have been a great component of the meta had it not been for this accursed combo of No Guard and Dynamic Punch. Confusion hax means even supposed checks and counters to Machoke (which aren't even that few in number) can be taken down with decent luck. Ghost-types aren't an answer, unfortunately, thanks to practically all sets running the obscenely good Knock Off. Because of this, one would have to create a very specialized set or team to take the darn bodybuilder on (like has been said before, Gourgeist is the only practical option, but having to stall it out is just a drag to many). Without a definitive counter, you'll be constantly coin-flipping just to do something, which is just no fun for you. There's not much pride to take from winning this way, either. Having PU become "Confusion Hax: The Tier" is not something I would ever want to happen.

Really, the main gripe I have with banning Choke is that the only non-LC Fighting-type left would be Monferno. Fighting is a great type in the tier, and I can see many, many offensive teams running Monferno were Machoke to leave. A lack of diversity is unfortunate and annoying to me, but at least there are surefire ways to take out Monferno.

Looking at the sheer luck Machoke forces in battle and the lack of ways to get around it, I believe the most sensible thing to do by far is to BAN it.

 

[ToasterCoaster]

So while this is an odd suspect due to the fact that machoke itself doesn't feel like much of an issue; however the combo of d punch rest talk is. With this it's able to confuse its way past many would be checks thanks to the power of luck. During my time laddering I stayed away from using machoke due to my dislike of the rest talk set, I have however gone up against it many times. While i don't find it to be over powered by any means, it is quite a toxic play style that adds nothing to the tier, and will generally force you to try to stall it out. I feel that by removing machoke it'd be a healthy shift for the current meta, preferably to one that doesn't rely heavily on rng. While I do feel bad about losing one of our few fighting types I still feel that a ban is still in order.

 

[Rennyjesus]

Hmmmmm I would like to note... If Machoke is not broken by itself because while bulky, it is slow and not that terribly strong (100 base attack uninvested isn't THAT huge) that could be overpowered for the meta, why is Throh Banned?
Throh has basically the same bulk when we consider Eviolite on Machoke, they have similar Attacking stats and heck, they even share the Guts ability...

Reference Calcs:
252+ Atk Monferno Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Throh: 175-207 (39.4 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Monferno Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Machoke: 136-162 (37.4 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


252 SpA Monferno Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Throh: 102-121 (22.9 - 27.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Monferno Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Machoke: 84-100 (23.1 - 27.5%) -- 69.2% chance to 4HKO

Sure, Machoke is a little bit weaker to Knock Off, but it does have those Confusion Hax shenanigans that Throh didn't need to get banned... Then, if you just want a solution to keep the "good influence" of fighting types on the meta, without DPunch, just ban Choke and unban Throh...

That's what I think...
See ya!

 

[Anty]

Hmmmmm I would like to note... If Machoke is not broken by itself because while bulky, it is slow and not that terribly strong (100 base attack uninvested isn't THAT huge) that could be overpowered for the meta, why is Throh Banned?
Throh has basically the same bulk when we consider Eviolite on Machoke, they have similar Attacking stats and heck, they even share the Guts ability...

Reference Calcs:
252+ Atk Monferno Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Throh: 175-207 (39.4 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Monferno Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Machoke: 136-162 (37.4 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


252 SpA Monferno Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Throh: 102-121 (22.9 - 27.2%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Monferno Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Machoke: 84-100 (23.1 - 27.5%) -- 69.2% chance to 4HKO

Sure, Machoke is a little bit weaker to Knock Off, but it does have those Confusion Hax shenanigans that Throh didn't need to get banned... Then, if you just want a solution to keep the "good influence" of fighting types on the meta, without DPunch, just ban Choke and unban Throh...

That's what I think...
See ya!

Throh and Machoke are very much different situation outside of just 'bulky fighting type'. Firstly, Throh did not rely on its item for its bulk meaning it could more reliably take Knock Offs from like Pawniard or Tangela and not be crippled for the remainder of the game. This also meant it could more effectively run bulk up restalk sets, which were very underrated, and could destroy bulkier teams. Access to taunt allowed it to run Taunt + Toxic sets which further ruined said teams.

So though they do have similarities, you really cannot compare them like you do. We already had a recent retest of throh which proved it was still broken, so your 'solution' is not feasible.

 

[ManOfMany]

I just don't buy the argument that Machoke leaving would make the metagame worse. It really hasn't been that long since defensive Machoke became a thing, and before Machoke started being used as a counter to Floatzel, Rotom-F, Monferno, Regice, etc. I felt that the offensive Machoke meta was completely balanced. While these aformentioned pokemon certainly threats, they were not unmanageable in any way, and neither was Audino and Lickilicky before it. Machoke leaving won't leave the tier helpless against the pokemon it checks since there are plenty of other ways to check them.

What Machoke leaving will do is freshen the meta up. Machoke is the kind of pokemon that highly conforms the metagame. For a balanced team to be successful against Machoke, they either need to run a Gourgeist-Super, or run two Machoke checks (usually one a switch-in, the other something that can hit it really hard) so something like swanna + grumpig or grumpig + mawile. I get that there's nothing wrong with preparing for an S-rank pokemon, but what happens is a LOT of teams end up looking the same or similar. And they HAVE to be like that in order to not just lose to Machoke. The difference between preparing against Machoke and preparing against other S-rank pokemon is if the Machoke checks die, Machoke could just win the game because it's so fat. No other pokemon in the tier has that capability except perhaps Articuno and AA Duosion but they face their own probems. Banning Machoke would allow people to free up their teambuilding and experiment with more kinds of balanced team builds, since they would not have to run hard machoke checks on every team.

Machoke comes with some positives to the tier by checking a bunch of prominent threats. However, none of these threats would be broken by its absence, and there are still plenty of fat pokemon in PU, like Clefairy, Regice, Grumpig, Bouffalant to check the same pokemon. However Machoke also comes with some negatives which I feel outweigh the positives. The first of course, is Dynamic Punch is no fun at all to play against. It also forces people to run hard checks to it on every team, so even while slapping a Machoke on a team helps cover a lot of things, you still have to cover against opposing Machoke in the process. I don't believe that Machoke is broken, as I did before. However I feel the defensive Machoke meta is getting really stale and I'm seeing two many of the same kinds of teams all revolving around Machoke. Let's shake things up and BAN

EDIT: to clarify, I'm not suggesting Machoke be banned only to shake things up. I think it should be banned because it is uncompetitive (confusion) and the metagame would be more healthy without it

 

[Ryolain]

I've been reading a lot from the sample team thread, squad dumps, PUPL dumps, etc. lately. So far I don't think I've seen any instances of someone saying "I added Machoke because I saw my team was weak to X, Y and Z, and Machoke is a good check to them." The common thread is always "I added X (and Y, and maybe Z) to deal with Machoke." I think that aligns with ManOfMany's point above that as much as people argue that Machoke's presence is important for balancing the tier, people treat Machoke as a threat to be handled much more than something to help handle other threats.

Machoke is splashable on basically any team as a 6th that can almost always grab a kill since it has so few true counters and it can luck out and kill some of its counters anyway. If it weren't already so strong, No Guard confusion hax wouldn't be so dangerous, otherwise Machop would be up for this suspect as well. Machoke as a whole is just too strong and too annoying to take out to be healthy for the tier and it hurts a lot more than it helps.

 

[Mega-Pokebattlerz]

With Machoke's overwhelming power and incredibly annoying STAB Dynamic Punch, it's one hell of bitch to switch into. It's also really bulky so it can take a shit ton of hits and has a plethora of coverage options to take on just about anything. This is one of the few suspects I've actually used, so I actually have an opinion on this monster.

As for my verdict... I'd have to say ban it.

This fucker is damn near impossible to switch into, and the confusion brought about by DPunch is really annoying and uncompetitive. The Guts set that I commonly run (fuck you) is just a giant middle finger to stall, which is unhealthy for this balanced meta. As far as I'm concerned, Machoke needs to go.

 

[MZ]

I will be hosting a suspect tour on smogtours at Saturday 10:30 am EST and Machoke will be allowed

 

[Rennyjesus]

Throh and Machoke are very much different situation outside of just 'bulky fighting type'. Firstly, Throh did not rely on its item for its bulk meaning it could more reliably take Knock Offs from like Pawniard or Tangela and not be crippled for the remainder of the game. This also meant it could more effectively run bulk up restalk sets, which were very underrated, and could destroy bulkier teams. Access to taunt allowed it to run Taunt + Toxic sets which further ruined said teams.

So though they do have similarities, you really cannot compare them like you do. We already had a recent retest of throh which proved it was still broken, so your 'solution' is not feasible.

Sorry Anty! :3 I was trying to be a little bit Sarcastic about the solution, cuz IMO RN Machoke is just as Effective-Bulky-Broken as it was Throh in that moment that was banned and even during the retest... And that should be enough to warrant a Ban...

 

[gasquakee]

Sorry Anty! :3 I was trying to be a little bit Sarcastic about the solution, cuz IMO RN Machoke is just as Effective-Bulky-Broken as it was Throh in that moment that was banned and even during the retest... And that should be enough to warrant a Ban...

It isn't if the meta has changed, which metas tend to do over the span of months and shifts..

 

[Levohl]

Man of many's post I think is probably the most accurate so far understanding how machoke actually influences the meta. With that in mind, though machoke is unhealthy to a degree it is not really that hard to deal with. We have 1 counter, gourg, 3-4 hard checks (defensive maw, swanna, etc), and a giant surplus of soft checks in the various pokemon who are both good in the meta and bave moves or typing that are very annoying to machoke (defensive coil arbok, offensive rose, lefties pig, offensive or tank reli with zen headbutt, sd and intimidate pivot mawile, swalot, scarf rotom-f, dodrio, and many more).

Furthermore, with potential drops from peliper, rotom-fan, muk, and torterra (iirc), the meta may soon have more than just 1 counter and/or more than just a few hard checks. If the problems that make machoke unhealthy are over-centralization and confusion hax, then the suspect needs to be done carefully. Sure, machoke is a little bit of a problem in centralization, but with potential drops, like 5 solid things to handle it, and a bunch of things that can help deal with it, I just don't see how it leaving is fair. We should at the very least see if we get drops and if so, consider the impact said drops have. And as far as hax goes, dyna causes hax 50% of the time, but sleep talk fails 33% of the time, and before rest status does still affect it, which can be notable, and confusion is a mechanic in game that we just have to deal with. It's nothing new.

It is pretty borderline whether or not is worth banning now, and if we get a bunch of choke hate on this next drop, if we get it, this whole suspect may have been for absolutely nothing. At least if we wait and see, we can still ban it after nothing drops. But how long will it take machoke to drop back into PU once answers for it are prevalent? A while. I don't want to have to wait for an unban suspect weeks or months later when waiting a small amount of time now could save the wait later, help make a more informed decision now, and be more fair to the meta.

 

[Acast]

Man of many's post I think is probably the most accurate so far understanding how machoke actually influences the meta. With that in mind, though machoke is unhealthy to a degree it is not really that hard to deal with. We have 1 counter, gourg, 3-4 hard checks (defensive maw, swanna, etc), and a giant surplus of soft checks in the various pokemon who are both good in the meta and bave moves or typing that are very annoying to machoke (defensive coil arbok, offensive rose, lefties pig, offensive or tank reli with zen headbutt, sd and intimidate pivot mawile, swalot, scarf rotom-f, dodrio, and many more).

Furthermore, with potential drops from peliper, rotom-fan, muk, and torterra (iirc), the meta may soon have more than just 1 counter and/or more than just a few hard checks. If the problems that make machoke unhealthy are over-centralization and confusion hax, then the suspect needs to be done carefully. Sure, machoke is a little bit of a problem in centralization, but with potential drops, like 5 solid things to handle it, and a bunch of things that can help deal with it, I just don't see how it leaving is fair. We should at the very least see if we get drops and if so, consider the impact said drops have. And as far as hax goes, dyna causes hax 50% of the time, but sleep talk fails 33% of the time, and before rest status does still affect it, which can be notable, and confusion is a mechanic in game that we just have to deal with. It's nothing new.

It is pretty borderline whether or not is worth banning now, and if we get a bunch of choke hate on this next drop, if we get it, this whole suspect may have been for absolutely nothing. At least if we wait and see, we can still ban it after nothing drops. But how long will it take machoke to drop back into PU once answers for it are prevalent? A while. I don't want to have to wait for an unban suspect weeks or months later when waiting a small amount of time now could save the wait later, help make a more informed decision now, and be more fair to the meta.

The primary reason most people seem to want Machoke gone is Dynamic Punch hax, which helps it win in situations that it should not be able to win. Pelipper, Rotom-Fan, Muk, etc can all take a hit from Machoke, but they're not immune to confusion hax and therefore they won't be any better than the checks we have now (Clefairy, Swanna, Swalot, etc). I sincerely doubt adding one or two more checks to the metagame will make Machoke more manageable.

The PU Council obviously believes Machoke is enough of a problem that it should be dealt with now, and I agree with them. If it's going to get banned, now is as good of a time as any.

 

[Levohl]

0 Atk Machoke Dynamic Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 39-46 (12 - 14.2%) -- possibly the worst move ever
0 Atk Machoke Dynamic Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 39-46 (12 - 14.2%) -- possible 9HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Machoke Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 51-60 (15.7 - 18.5%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Machoke Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 51-60 (15.7 - 18.5%) -- possible 6HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Pelipper Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 120 SpD Eviolite Machoke: 176-210 (48.4 - 57.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Rotom-S Air Slash vs. 248 HP / 120 SpD Eviolite Machoke: 180-212 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Machoke Dynamic Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-S: 51-60 (21.1 - 24.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Machoke Dynamic Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-S: 51-60 (21.1 - 24.8%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
0 Atk Machoke Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-S: 66-78 (27.3 - 32.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Machoke Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-S: 66-78 (27.3 - 32.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0 Atk Machoke Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-S: 48-57 (15.8 - 18.8%) -- possible 6HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Machoke Dynamic Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-S: 37-44 (12.2 - 14.5%) -- possible 9HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Muk Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 160+ Def Eviolite Machoke: 186-219 (51.2 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Machoke Dynamic Punch vs. 220 HP / 0 Def Muk: 68-81 (16.7 - 19.9%) -- guaranteed 6HKO
0 Atk Machoke Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 220 HP / 0 Def Muk: 89-105 (21.9 - 25.8%) -- 2% chance to 4HKO
128+ Atk Torterra Wood Hammer vs. 248 HP / 160+ Def Eviolite Machoke: 115-136 (31.6 - 37.4%) -- 88.1% chance to 3HKO
0 Atk Machoke Dynamic Punch vs. 252 HP / 128 Def Torterra: 93-109 (23.6 - 27.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Machoke Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 128 Def Torterra: 60-71 (15.2 - 18%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery

I think the suggestion that these pokemon wouldn't have a large enough impact to make machoke not a problem is not very accurate. These calcs are from standard sets off smogon's calculator. Even with horrible fusion hax, these checks are not going to be killed easy AT ALL. And all save muk have means of recovery (even though Rotom-S's recovery is somewhat unreliable it also damages machoke in the process which can help with forcing rests), and muk even has things like acid armor to annoy choke in new sets made for PU.

If just 2 of these mons were to drop, machoke will not be winning like a haxgod nearly often enough to warrant a ban in my opinion. How is it going to hax things like a hax god? The only reason it is a problem as it is now is the only things that can take it on are either in danger of being 3hkod semi-consistenly or have no real effective options to kill or stall out choke. All 4 of these mons put machoke on a skillet, and the current meta already has several that do that now. Just extending the dealine long enough to get a week's testing off of the drops, if any drop, to see if they hamper machoke's meta-warping and fusion-haxing problems would be enough to assure most people machoke is unworthy of a ban. And of course if nothing dropped, there would be no need to keep testing and we could make the choice as it stands now.

 

[MZ]

0 Atk Machoke Dynamic Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 39-46 (12 - 14.2%) -- possibly the worst move ever
0 Atk Machoke Dynamic Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 39-46 (12 - 14.2%) -- possible 9HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Machoke Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 51-60 (15.7 - 18.5%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Machoke Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Pelipper: 51-60 (15.7 - 18.5%) -- possible 6HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Pelipper Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 120 SpD Eviolite Machoke: 176-210 (48.4 - 57.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Rotom-S Air Slash vs. 248 HP / 120 SpD Eviolite Machoke: 180-212 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Machoke Dynamic Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-S: 51-60 (21.1 - 24.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Machoke Dynamic Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-S: 51-60 (21.1 - 24.8%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
0 Atk Machoke Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-S: 66-78 (27.3 - 32.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Machoke Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-S: 66-78 (27.3 - 32.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
0 Atk Machoke Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-S: 48-57 (15.8 - 18.8%) -- possible 6HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Machoke Dynamic Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-S: 37-44 (12.2 - 14.5%) -- possible 9HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Muk Gunk Shot vs. 248 HP / 160+ Def Eviolite Machoke: 186-219 (51.2 - 60.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Machoke Dynamic Punch vs. 220 HP / 0 Def Muk: 68-81 (16.7 - 19.9%) -- guaranteed 6HKO
0 Atk Machoke Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 220 HP / 0 Def Muk: 89-105 (21.9 - 25.8%) -- 2% chance to 4HKO
128+ Atk Torterra Wood Hammer vs. 248 HP / 160+ Def Eviolite Machoke: 115-136 (31.6 - 37.4%) -- 88.1% chance to 3HKO
0 Atk Machoke Dynamic Punch vs. 252 HP / 128 Def Torterra: 93-109 (23.6 - 27.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Machoke Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 128 Def Torterra: 60-71 (15.2 - 18%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery

Think before you suggest that these pokemon wouldn't have a large enough impact to make machoke not a problem. These calcs are from standard sets off smogon's calculator. Even with horrible fusion hax, these checks are not going to be killed easy AT ALL.

If just 2 of these mons were to drop, machoke will not be winning like a haxgod nearly often enough to warrant a ban in my opinion. How is it going to hax things like a hax god? The only reason it is a problem as it is now is the only things that can take it on are either in danger of being 3hkod semi-consistenly or have no real effective options to kill or stall out choke. All 4 of these mons put machoke on a skillet, and the current meta already has several that do that now. Just extending the dealine long enough to get a week's testing off of the drops, if any drop, to see if they hamper machoke's meta-warping and fusion-haxing problems would be enough to assure most people machoke is unworthy of a ban. And of course if nothing dropped, there would be no need to keep testing and we could make the choice as it stands now.

We're suspecting machoke now because it's an issue now. What may or may not drop should not affect how you vote since we can't assume we're getting anything. And despite all of that it could still totally confuse through all those mons with enough hits, plus we already have things like swanna and Beheeyem which both can lose to machoke and start to slide into the whole over centralizing thing.

 

[g]

Please do not discuss future possible tier changes to support your ban or do not ban argument
I am going to delete any post like that from now on and possibly infract them

If after we ban machoke the PU tier gets a million Pokemon that match up well against it a retest might happen but it doesn't matter at all now.

 

[5gen]

Haven't gotten reqs yet but I've been using/facing Choke on ladder and generally observing people's stances on it. I personally am on the fence on ban or no ban, simply because Machoke can run multiple sets well, and only one can really be considered suspect worthy imo (rest-talk dpunch). It's also a great blanket check for teams seeking a mon to check a bunch of stuff (which people see as a positive trait). On the other side it's sheer bulk, confusion hax and centralization are all reasons I think could be said that Machoke is bad for the tier.

Well Already made reqs, just gonna post a few comments about machoke + the ladder and how people were dealing with it as a result.

From my experience on the ladder, I used machoke the whole suspect as it is what you're supposed to do. What i found is that teams were very lazily built, with minimal checks and on some occasions, no fighting resists whatsoever. Secondly, people were sacking their fighting resists very easily and then complaining later in the game that machoke was too good to play against... Derp. The teams that had genuine machoke checks with things like gourgeist or CM clefairy, it did virtually nothing the whole game and it didn't do anything and when I was facing offensive teams, machoke was pressured heavily by a variety of things like mr mime, articuno, or swanna. So it leads me to a simple conclusion about the ladder:
If you don't prepare for machoke / don't want to prepare for it - you can't complain if it steam rolls your team. It's an S rank pokemon, you have to prepare for it just like any other threat.

My thoughts leading up to the test, i think most people know but I will repeat myself so that this thread knows how I feel. I think that the offensive sets that machoke provides are very good, but only against particular playstyles. They lack longetivity throughout the game and will often be chipped away very easily. Despite having a powerful dynamic punch to break through slower cores, it doesn't beat any of its counters unless of pure confusion hax + the machoke player sits in spamming their moves hoping for the confusion. By which case, most of the time things like swanna / beheeyem / gourgeist will win this 99% of the time. Furthermore the offensive set is not what makes machoke so good. It is hard to fit on teams if it does not add to the defensive core and for that reason, the bulky rest-talk set has taken over.

The rest-talk set is extremely nice to have in the tier whereby you have virtually 0 resists to bolt-beam, or things that can really stand up to water-ice coverage. Having machoke on the team is a wonderful thing for balance team building whereby it adds a bulky pseudo resist to a multitude of threats in this tier such as regice, floatzel, rotom-f, monferno and that's just to name a few. Not only that, but it has an offensive presence as a bulky wall, which makes it even better. Adding onto this, it has its amazing coverage of dynamic punch + knock off, which are the 2 most spammable moves in the tier, with rest-talk there's a 66% chance you'll pull one of them and it's going to do something good for your team if your opponent switches out. Not to mention that machoke has the option to invest in its spdef / defense, speed, power, it can literally do anything. It is a wonderful pokemon to add to any team as a pseudo resist. However, this doesn't look at the negative effects that machoke applies to the tier.

I can admit that there is a team building strain around machoke, like there is with any S rank or top pokemon in the tier, however I always feel that people overstate how much machoke affects team building when there are a lot of counter measures that I personally use (I built over 20+ teams during pupl, not all of them were perfect and they re-used certain cores but not one of them was weak to machoke) and people are choosing to use the lesser checks. Things like grumpig / arbok are not counters and should not be treated as so, if you aren't going to add another machoke check to your team, you are going to be weak to it. And there are a variety of mons that take advantage of machoke and setup on it / heavily pressure the machoke's members team. Things like Mr. Mime, Clefairy, Duosion, Articuno, Beheeyem (big threat of late), Swanna, Arbok and even Mawile. It's not even like these pokemon are bad. And if you want to use a passive option, you have defensive mawile + psychic type core which i personally used or just slapping on a Gourgeist-Super.

I can also certainly admit that confusion is a dumb mechanic that makes machoke annoying to face, but i think it can be played around by switching out and pivoting. Yet I also know that confusion is used to get around its checks and counters to obtain free switches, i admit it's not the most ideal mechanic, but it is manageable so far and we are nitpicking at ways to improve our tier.

However i feel that the benefits that machoke adds to the tier in ways of role compacting in team building is far greater than the strain it puts on teams. I think it provides great benefits in ways of team building and it has plenty of counter-measure, however most people are not using it. Overall I will be voting for a NO BAN because I feel it adds way more than it takes away from our tier, despite confusion being gay as fuck.

I agree with points Teddeh made on how the AoA sets are easier to wear down and thereby Machoke requires less effort to beat, rest-talk being a nice fat mon with offensive presence and how it strains teambuilding.

Now the main reason you want Machoke to stay, as stated in the final paragraph, is that Machoke "adds to the tier in ways of role compacting in team building is far greater than the strain it puts on teams". Looking at it Choke does provide great role compacting being able to check a plethora of mons in one slot. It's really a great mon in terms of that and it can luck it's way out of dangerous situations because of dpunch. For example a healthy Machoke is able to check Stoutland, Frostom, Monferno, Floatzel and a bunch of other things. This however doesn't mean that Machoke is a necessary mon for every team to slap on if you need to check a lot in one slot, as pokes like Misdreavus, Metang, Gourgeist or Relicanth can check a ton also. And yeah the ability to hax your way through opposition or at least confuse then switch out is great for the Machoke user in a battle, but is really irritating for the one dealing with it.

The strains it puts on team is very noticeable, as evidenced by the rise of Gourgeist, Duosion, Clefairy, Beheeyem and Defensive Swanna. This means your Choke switch ins are passive and drain momentum (except Swanna) so teams nowadays that want to counter Machoke become more naturally passive. Of course most of these mons are susceptible to dpunch hax so that's always annoying. On the other hand, Machoke has it's fair share of offensive checks such as Articuno, Mr Mime, Dodrio etc. Since Choke is so bulky, on offense you need to run 2-3 strong checks to it which really strains building. This means you must make a third of your team dedicated to dealing with Machoke (obv these mons have other roles too).
It's strong STAB moves and set versatility is also a great challenge for offense teams to switch into, which makes offense lean to the bulky side, so we're currently looking at a bulky offense centered meta-game. The problem with this is that while you have better odds of beating Machoke, it leaves you open to threats like set up sweepers (NP Simis, Duosion/BHM, NP Mime etc). Like MoM stated previously, teams start looking similar with Grumpig+Mawile or Swanna+Chinchou as examples. If you enjoy using/seeing the same pokes repeatedly that's fine, but there are those who are bored doing that.

 

[Akir]

I will be hosting a suspect tour on July 9th at 2pm EST (GMT -4) and Machoke WILL NOT be allowed.

Any use of Machoke will result in a disqualification, so please use the opportunity to see what the meta will look like without Machoke to have a more informed vote.

 

[EnemyJurist]

just a question, i thought i had heard somewhere it was possible to get multiple votes by achieving reqs multiple times, and i wasn't sure if that was true or not. i wouldn't mind playing in the suspect tour to get a better idea of what the meta would be like, but not if the additional reqs would go to waste.

 

[Anty]

just a question, i thought i had heard somewhere it was possible to get multiple votes by achieving reqs multiple times, and i wasn't sure if that was true or not. i wouldn't mind playing in the suspect tour to get a better idea of what the meta would be like, but not if the additional reqs would go to waste.

If you win a suspect tour and already get reqs you still only get one vote, and the reqs from the suspect tour would effectively go to waste. You can still play in it.

In future questions like these can just be easily answered by a vm or just asking someone on PS