np: ORAS UU Stage 7.3 - See No Evil | Baton Pass Suspect - see post #110

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Kink

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Hi. So there hasn't really been any active discussion about UU lately, so I figured I'd fire (hue) up some discussion myself. I wanna talk about Entei for a bit since I think it's an unfair Pokemon worthy of looking into some more.

First of all, Sacred Fire keeps me up at night. Like seriously, this move is ridiculous. Coming off of a handsome attack stat, and more often than not paired with a Choice Band, this move not only nukes, but it also inflicts a hugely crippling status condition 50% of the time. This means a 'counter', like Swampert is considered to be, isn't really. It can come in once and is at the same time forced to function as the SR user, too. Suicune, which is probably the best Entei switch-in in UU that's also widely usable otherwise, is forced to use Rest really quickly if hit by Sacred Fire, but does have Pressure forcing down its PP quicker. Entei is also isn't match-up dependent, despite having seen people claiming it to be (I respectfully wholeheartedly disagree, btw). ExtremeSpeed is a very handy tool vs. offensive builds, while Entei is also deceptively hard to actually outspeed and OHKO at the same time, which gives it more turns to Sacred Fire stuff than one would like it to have.

What do you guys think about Entei? I think it's a suspect test worthy Pokemon and that its counters are actually really pressured by it without even having to use a coverage move to predict them to come in; it just clicks Sacred Fire and it just works. In my opinion counter play is objectively limited and the Pokemon that do switch into Entei commonly would rather not at all, since a burn limits their effectiveness a ton. Am I overreacting a little bit or do some of you feel similarly?
I think before Entei, Celebi needs to be looked at. I also disagree with how strongly you feel Sacred Fire pressures teams. Many teams have methods of utilizing the drawback of Choice Band which keeps Entei from becoming too spammable. If Sacred Fire had a 100% burn rate I might have been swayed, but at this point considering each one of Entei's turns is just one part of a massive turn-based calculated decision, I can't see Entei as anything but a lower S-rank mon. Don't get me wrong, I think Entei is one of the best mons in the tier, but I don't think it's remotely broken.
 
I know I've recenly written a VR post on Entei that mostly details what it does and how it accomplishes it in this tier. What makes Entei better now as opposed to before is, in my eyes, largely the absence of Salamence as well as the fact that the meta has centralized around a select few mons, one of them being Cleric Sylveon. Entei's balance breaking capabilities are second to none, and it's no slouch against offense or stall, either. Sacred Fire is in large what makes Entei so ridiculous, as you described, Tony, and I really despise playing against Entei because of it.

Just the same, I don't think Entei is suspect worthy. I'm not sure how I would vote if it does get suspected but if I did vote ban, it'd be mostly out of a personal grudge against it rather than it being completely busted. While it does pressure things it shouldn't (such as Swampert, Suicune and even Alomomola), these mons are still counterplay. Even though Offense, BO in particular, doesn't like taking SF or Espeed, outspeeding and removing Entei is something these teams are capable of. Stall usually carries at least 2 answers, one of them being Alo. Unless you run something like Mamoswine + Entei that forces Alo to take on two of the most dangerous wallbreakers (and I find it hard fitting both on a team, personally), it takes quite a bit of work to actually break through the fish. Swampert balances, especially with a Sylveon (and potentially a bulky steel such as Bronzong) are really troubled vs Entei but the mon itself never forces an outright impossible match-up.

Entei is undeniably good and I think this discussion will mostly boil down to whether or not Sacred Fire itself is a fair move. It's a low risk, high reward move and I do think that the risk/reward ratio is rather skewed. Yet even with all this, I have a hard time calling Entei itself unbalanced or broken and I have really mixed feelings on it as a whole.

On a closing note, I find it kind of funny that Entei's answers are mostly bulky waters. Entei burns them with SF to either cripple them permanently or at the very least gain momentum. These mons themselves heavily rely on Scald, a move which I've seen so often used as an "emergency check" to things that would otherwise set up on these bulky waters, essentially cheating them out of a win. I guess it's true that you reap what you sow.
 

Pearl

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I know that the chances of people actually hearing me out on this are slim, but I feel like it's about time we get rid of the elephant in the room. UU players tend to get incredibly defensive whenever an outsider talks about how horrible of a tier UU is and how it's nothing but the same bulky offensive team every single game and a couple of broken Pokemon keeping each other in check. Note that, even though I don't necessarily think the tier is as horrible as some people let out (I think it's kind of bad as is, but that's besides the point), I still believe that there are a couple of issues that need to be addressed and I'm not a fan of the lazy path we're taking at all regarding our suspect tests at all.

Please note that this isn't related to the result of the Hydreigon suspect test at all. In fact, I'm not actually bothered with the end result, and blaming it on the lack of game/GXE limit is silly when you consider that many of our most competent players contributed to Hydreigon staying in the tier. I would support introducing a limit or something else to make getting requirements slightly harder, but I believe that taking the "2 suspect ladders with insane game limits" approach like RU (and even NU at a point IIRC) did is not healthy to a tier's development because it also happens to make suspect tests a lot harder and restrictive than they should be for less experienced players and even for experienced ones who don't have as much time per week to commit to laddering. With that said, Hydreigon could've been banned, since it's one of the arguably "slightly overpowered" Pokemon that keeps a million things in check with its good defensive typing, but there's no point in pursuing a ban any further after the community decided that they ultimately want it to stay in the tier. Moving on.

What I'm about to say has a lot of subjectivity and maybe even some bias to it, but as someone who builds a lot of teams and has a lot of fun theorizing about new strategies and ways of breaking the metagame, I just get this feeling that the tier has grown so stale that it's actually impossible to get away with making big changes within bulky offensive/slow balance team frameworks. I won't get too practical and I'll try not to make this little rant too long, but before people say "But Pearl, of course you can't use an UU team without a Fairy-type! That means you're being silly for refusing to run checks to Hydreigon and Conkeldurr!", please keep in mind that I'm not questioning the fact that teams need answers to the most threatening Pokemon and playstyles. What I'm trying to say is that the options we have to deal with UU's many threats are incredibly limited, which creates many scenarios in which you either run the same 3/4 defensive Pokemon everyone else does or just accept having a harder time (or even straight up losing) against one of the tier's top dogs. This is why, in the end, every balance team (and even some bulky offensive ones, but those usually resort to faster stuff) that's commonly seen has these Swampert + Forretress + Sylveon, Sylveon + Crobat + Krookodile + Suicune or even Sylveon + Tentacruel + Steel-type + Entei check cores that bore the hell out of everyone who's not really into the tier, leading to the infinite amount of complains about the tier's state that comes from all of the outsiders.

With this in mind, there are two different routes that the people who are in charge of UU can take:

1. Accept the tier's current and centralized state, doing nothing to create a more dynamic metagame where people actually have room for creativity when running teams that aren't stall or full-blown offense. This is what's currently happening and what I'm trying to change. Unfortunately, I don't think things are going to become different anytime soon, but who knows what could happen if a respectable number of people agree with my stance.

2. Try and change stuff within UU. This is a lot harder in practice than it is on paper, considering that, at the moment, there isn't really a Pokemon that's dominant enough to be considered "the absolute best" or "too centralizing to remain in the tier", but instead there's this group of 6 or so Pokemon that are obviously above everything else and create the boring metagame we currently have. Obviously, and especially considering how close we are to the next generation of Pokemon (note that this isn't, in my opinion, an argument to encourage us to remain quiet as we finish ORAS on a bad note), we're not going to be banning 7 different Pokemon, nor do I think that such thing should be done, even if it happened during any other given time of the generation. However, what we can try to do, is to identify which Pokemon of the "arguably broken" bunch is the most restricting to teambuilding, which is what I'm about to get into:

Celebi
I know that many people think that Celebi is the #1 option as far as "Pokemon we should absolutely get rid of" go, and even though I used to agree with that stance up until very recently, I just don't think it's true anymore. UU has managed to adapt nicely to Celebi's most threatening set (a.k.a. Offensive Nasty Plot and all of its variants), and even though it's still a fearsome cleaner and even a solid lure to some specifically threatening Pokemon (using Shadow Ball, Hidden Power Fire and even Signal Beam according to the team's needs can throw the opponent off nicely), you're never really going to see it straight up winning games on its own. However, what I feel that needs to go in Celebi's place, is Baton Pass. Celebi is a manageable Pokemon on its own, as I've just said, but when you consider that it also happens to have the ability to give a teammate a free +2 boost to either offensive stat, things become a lot more painful when dealing with this Pokemon. It's true that a Celebi's coverage move can give the Celebi user a massive advantage, but Baton Pass has the ability to single handily turn a game around, and it's honestly not fair to play against for many different reasons that people are tired of hearing out in threads dedicated to banning Baton Pass (those are common in Policy Review, so check them out if you've never done so before).






Entei
Most people who talk to me about this tier on a daily basis are probably tired of hearing me rambling and crying about this Pokemon's existence, but I can't help feeling like that at all. Sacred Fire is an unhealthy move and, in my opinion, pushes this Pokemon over the edge as far as centralizing stuff goes. Even though this is obvious for pretty much every person, I'm still going to stress it out because I bet there are people out there who think I'm not aware of this: I obviously think it's a must for a tier to have Pokemon which can punish passive players effectively. However, I just feel like Entei is a little too good at that, while also restricting teambuilding in a way no other Pokemon aside from Hydreigon and (maybe) Conkeldurr can. I'd keep on writing up about Entei, but I feel like this conversation of mine with user: Tony sums my stance up better than anything I could come up with right now.

Aside from these two, there's also Hydreigon, Krookodile, Conkeldurr and even Sylveon, but I feel like in spite of their status as the tier's most dominant Pokemon, they shouldn't be considered for serious suspect tests, considering a lot of different factors that aren't really important for the point I'm trying to get across. However, if anyone actually feels like any of these Pokemon could use one, then feel free to write about it.

I think this should be enough for me to explain myself, since the post is starting to get pretty long. I know that there's definitely some bias in some parts of my post; that's pretty hard to avoid in discussions like these, but the points I bring up are still completely legit (in my opinion).
 

Josh

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Would a potential sacred fire suspect be outlandish? The only things that get the move are Hooh and Entei (free my nigga Smeargle), the former of which is ubers where the move remains stupid. It is a low risk, high reward stab move with good damage output AND a good secondary effect, with good accuracy to boot. The move makes switching in a complete mess of guessing, because any non fire type has to get burned half the time and a fire type needs to fear getting one/two shot by stone edge (or the odd bulldoze I guess). At least with flare blitz it would remain a good top tier wallbreaker while not having a stupid broken move. I understand move suspects are rare but everything that gets sacred fire is broken with the move (since Entei is the only thing that gets the move that wouldn't be banned anyways) so it's not like there's any casualties of the ban, and it truly is an uncompetitive and too-good move imo.
 

Tirishia

Banned deucer.
Normally I just play the tier and let everyone else bicker about these issues, but I think I have a unique stance on all of this and I would appreciate if you heard me out. I play this game to have fun. The competitive side of things are cool and all but I mainly just like to build teams and hang out in the UU room. While this tier isn't my favorite at this time, I enjoy the UU Mafia and Tony's Last Look. These threads encourage me to get better at the game because they are a lot of fun. Within this discussion about entei, I'm seeing things like, "Entei isn't broken, therefore it shouldn't be suspected." We (as a tier) have the freedom to suspect anything within UU correct? I don't know the rules but I assume we can.

How about we suspect entei, not because it is broken, but because UU would be a lot more fun without it... I mean seriously. Pearl talked about how people say this tier is garbage and there needs to be change, well this is it. Rather than banning what is broken, we ban what makes team-building a pain in the ass. We make the tier fun for everyone, and that starts with team-building. More freedom in building will result in a more pleasant UU experience. I believe that outsiders have more fun when they build their own team and win rather than using a sample team. People like to do good with their own innovations and ideas. When all of UU's team building constrictions get in the way of that, they are not having fun. It becomes a massive chore to build a team that is fun and effective or even just effective. Team building constraints are a good thing, but too many makes the tier 'not fun to play.'

One last thing that came to mind when reading the above. I checked the BW UU viability rankings for entei to see how it did without sacred fire, and I could not find it on the list. I then found out that entei was RU before sacred fire. I do know that meta may have been a little harsher towards Entei, but I would expect the same with this one. Entei without sacred fire seems pretty garbo. I don't think just banning sacred fire would do much good. Worst case scenario would be it dropping to RU and then they have to decide if they want to ban sacred fire or just ban it completely. I think banning sacred fire wouldn't do UU much good. I don't see the point. Sacred fire is what entei is. I rather just rid ourselves of the full package than leave it to be a possible problem for RU in the future.
 
I don't really understand why are we bringing up banning Sacred Fire/Entei towards the end of Gen VI's life, especially since Entei has been a mainstay in Gen VI UU with no visible problems. I honestly don't think that Sacred Fire or Entei is inherently broken. Rather, it's what's really strong in the metagame currently that's making Entei a optimal pick for many teams. Banning Entei will not solve UU's current issue of overcentralization caused by more problematic elements such as Celebi or Sylveon to some degree.

One thing people need to understand is that Entei is a static variable in UU in the sense that Entei has one set and ONLY one set to the point where every single Entei is running the same item, Nature (obviously), etc. Entei's performance in the tier has significantly ebbed and flowed over the NP cycles in Gen VI, all simply based on whether or not the actually problematic threats in the tier appreciate Entei support.

Also, I don't understand why Sacred Fire is being hyped to such an unnecessary extent. Between being choice-locked into a move (leaving it vulnerable to SR) and having an 8 PP move that can either be stalled out or whittled down to 4 by Suicune, Entei is nowhere near a level worthy of a suspect.
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
Ya UU is kinda in a weird spot right now and I am glad that Pearl brought up this discussion now right before SuMo as I feel its in all out best interests to try to make the tier as "fun" as possible before it solidifies itself as an old gen meta. Will go through my opinions on the mons brought up for discussion:

: Celebi


No matter how hard I try to find arguments trying to justify Celebi's positive impact to the tier, I just can't conclude with anything substantial. The problem with Celebi to me is just that it has the ubiquity within its sets is too much for the tier to handle at its current stage. Whether it be the wide array of Nasty Plot variants that could be incredible difficult to stop due to the fact that the the opposing player will need to carefully scout which coverage move it decided to run, the equally scary Swords Dance sets that could throw off special walls such as Sylveon, Umbreon, and Blissey. It also pertains many support/utility sets that I feel that are also undervalued atm which are nice answers to many of the bulky waters in the tier and Fighting types as well. I agree with the point that Pearl brought up that Celebi is also a very good Baton Passer that could turn the tides of battles as well, however I feel that there are many more "questionable" elements to Celebi's kit that could potentially bring it up for a suspect test as well.

: Entei

It is a low risk, high reward stab move with good damage output AND a good secondary effect, with good accuracy to boot.
Scald
Power
80 Accuracy
100%
PP 24
30% chance to burn the target. Thaws target.
Priority: 0 |  Gen: 5 |  Contest Condition: Tough |  ✓ Secondary effect |  ✓ Thaws user |  Target: One Adjacent Pokémon

.... (they are both stupid in UU btw, just addressing this blatant similarity)

To go back on topic though, Entei is another strenuous force that has really been negatively impacting the UU tier also as of late. The ability to nullify supposed safe switchins with Sacred Fire can truly be not only annoying but also unfair to deal with. UU really lacks good fire-resists with reliable recovery or the ability to not be 2HKOed by a Sacred Fire after SR and the chance to burn. Entei also possesses relatively high speed and great attack as well which only further abuses the nasty affects of the move. I am perfectly fine with either suspecting Sacred Fire or Entei as a whole (although if we choose the former, it might lead us to a slippery slope js). However, one of these options need to be done before SuMo tho as its really becoming increasingly frustrating to deal with and harder to prepare for with the presence of Celebi shutting down most waters anyways. Yes Entei only runs one set mainly, but the fact that this same set can consitently cause problems to the majoruty if teams depsite the abundant preparation that most teams have for it speaks miles of its unhealthy proponents, and as such should be at least suspected because of this.

: Sylveon

Another admittedly hard mon to switch into, Sylveon also has been dominating the meta as of late as due to it being so splashable and powerful at the same time. Cleric Sylveon could legit be slapped on any bulky offense team and perform its role as a p good Dragon check (meaning checking Scarf Hydra very well) and a great pivot in general with Wish and Heal Bell support. The main issue I see with it is that its both hard to take down with its incredible defensive typing while also being equally incredibly hard to check with its powerful Hyper Voice that decimates stuff that does not resist Fairy. However, I still feel that Sylveon is an issue not solely on its own merits, but when its combined with many other powerful mons as well such as Krookodile, Entei, and Hydreigon that all deal with most of its answers very well. While it does turn teambuilding to rely on Bulky offense mainly due to it being the best playstyle it fits on, I dont find it impacts the meta too much in a harsh aspect, which is why I dont feel its suspectworthy.

: Krookodile

Yet another powerful wallbreaker that has gained more traction due to it paring very well with other top mons such as Celebi and Sylveon, Krookodile has definitely carved itself into the metas most dangerous threats. Choice Band Krookodile has very few switchins due to Knock Off being so good in both utility and power, coupled with its amazing Ground typing that compliments Dark STAB very well. Pursuit is what really makes Krookodile the threat it is for me personally as it punishes safe plays so hard which is honestly very hard to deal with at times. Its also very good at pivoting around with Intimidate which offers it even more switchin opportunities. However, the issue with Krook is that its just not as fast as many offensive mons used currently, which translates to it struggling to break offensive teams most of the time with its average bulk and loads of weaknesses. It also has coverage issues in which in certain scenarios it would prefer Superpower for threats like Hydreigon or Aerial Ace for counters like Chestnaught. It completely destroys balance and stall teams, but its weak matchup vs offense leads me to believe its not worthy for a suspect, at least not currently.

Now here is a mon that I am shocked has not been brought up yet:

: Gyarados

To me this is the most frustrating threat to deal with rn alongside Celebi due to Taunt + Substitute being such a nuisance for a majority of teams to deal with. Gyarados is not only one of the hardest hitters in UU, but also is surprisingly bulky and possesses a decent defensive typing which allows it to setup Dragon Dance more liberally. Even after a single boost, it could become nigh impossible to stop for all playstyles (besides Stall which in that case requires two DDs mostly). It does possess 4MSS as well and has its fair set of checks, however Gyarados pertains the ability to work around such counterplay without risking it to lose other aspects in its kit thus not really hindering its effectiveness. I also feel that this mon could be suspected as well, but not sure on rest of community's input.

Edit: lol my 900th post too I guess, (not sure if that s a good or bad thing....)
 

Josh

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There's a big difference between scald and sacred fire. Both have burning as a side effect but 50% is WAY more than 30%, even if it doesn't feel like it when scald burns you 50 times in a row. The thing with scald though is that the water types are defensive, not offensive, for the most part at least, and it's relatively easy to punish even with stuff like heliolisk. Scald is also massively distributed so the abusers of the move are the broken ones, not the move, because not everything that gets it is broken, and that's what kept dynamicpunch legal. The huge difference with sacred fire is that only one thing gets it and that move is debatably broken on that one thing, so banning it keeps a decent metagame force while removing the cheap move a lot of people complain about.

**disclaimer**: I do not support Scald existing in any way, shape or form. Scald and it's associates have not endorsed this post.
 
UU will be suspecting Baton Pass.

However, we have decided that this test will be left to a council vote only. The following users were chosen to vote in this suspect test, in addition to Sam and myself: Hogg, King UU, IronBullet, Pearl, Christo., Tony, and Ice Tea. All of these people are respected users in the community whose opinions are valued.

While the details are not 100% finalized, we will most likely use a runoff format with the following options:

A) Ban Baton Pass
B) Ban Baton Pass + stat boosting moves and items
C) Suspect Celebi
D) Do nothing
Option A is extremely simple and would be chosen if the voter thinks Baton Pass as a move is inherently unhealthy in the current metagame. Cons: potentially remove healthy or at least not-unhealthy applications such as dry passing, Sub passing, Wish+Baton pass.
Option B is more specific in identifying what potentially makes Baton Pass unhealthy, and would be implemented as a ban in teambuilder. However, this could get pretty complex (for example, what about Charge Beam + Baton Pass, or Absorb Bulb + Baton Pass?)
Option C identifies Celebi as the sole reason why Baton Pass could be considered unhealthy in UU. Celebi is the most common user of Baton Pass and is the main reason that BP was even brought up for discussion. However, it potentially leaves other potentially unhealthy forms of BP in the tier, such as Hogg's Combusken Pass, and furthermore could remove a big part of the UU metagame (Celebi) just for one small aspect of it.
Option D will be chosen if the voter does not see Baton Pass unhealthy in any way.


While this is a council only vote, feel free to discuss your opinions about Baton Pass in this thread. We appreciate insight from everyone, so please do not hesitate to share your thoughts, sample BP teams, replays, etc.
 
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Funbot28

Banned deucer.
Ok so Hogg might get mad at me for doing this, but I feel now is the right time to bring up the team so further discussion on the issue could occur. He had passed to me and I had kept it secret for the Hydreigon Suspect:



Combusken @ Eviolite
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 248 HP / 40 Def / 220 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Protect
- Substitute
- Fire Blast
- Baton Pass

Celebi @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Giga Drain
- Psychic
- Earth Power

MOD EDIT: Could have sworn this was Shadow Ball when I gave you the team, not Earth Power. Use Shadow Ball, it's better :(

Xatu @ Kee Berry
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Stored Power
- Dazzling Gleam
- Roost

Heracross @ Leftovers
Ability: Guts
EVs: 200 HP / 252 Atk / 56 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Megahorn
- Knock Off

Aggron-Mega @ Aggronite
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 240 HP / 16 Def / 240 SpD / 12 Spe
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Heavy Slam
- Earthquake
- Roar

Nidoqueen @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 88 HP / 252 SpA / 168 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Sludge Wave
- Ice Beam
- Taunt


So this is basically UU ChickenPass which takes inspiration from the common strat that was used in NU before BP + speed got banned there. This team had won me so many ladder matches quite easily due to how BP could be so deadly without the proper matchup/counterplay. There aren't really many priority users in UU besides mainly Entei and Mamoswine, which is why I find speedpassing to be incredibly good in the UU environment as well. To me the best solution to solving the BP issue is either banning the move as a whole, or make more of a compelx ban to restrict stat boosts + passing (although I prefer the former).

P.S Celebi is also another BP passer that is quite too good at its role, although Celebi has many other attributes that would warrant it a suspect as well that I highlighted in a previous post...
 
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Scald and/or Thunder Wave next?

In all seriousness though, I have a few comments.

I'm assuming this was left to council to save time: Baton Pass is inherently broken and the series of nerfs it's faced thus far evidently haven't been enough to get rid of the problem BP presents. Not something worth spending two weeks on when we're most likely getting new drops in a couple days. Good call. I doubt that this test is going to be met with much opposition, as the forum-wide consensus suggests BP is ridiculously unhealthy for any metagame. The only people that wouldn't appreciate a BP banning are going to be those that religiously defend dry-passing or those that enjoy Speedpassing into Nidoqueen (which shits on a LOT of teams right now), and neither are major facets of the ORAS UU metagame that actively need preservation.

Celebi will still be dangerous to switch in on - you have to know the set or you risk losing your switch-in - but I can definitely see why BP is the main issue with Celebi. Bringing in your check only to see it pass the boost to something that nukes that counter was frustrating as all hell and took away some of the viable counterplay to Celebi. This nerf should reduce the impact it'll have in general, and I think that it's a positive step forward. As an added bonus, banning BP should be the last nail in the coffin for Vaporeon: there'd no longer be a reason to use shitty-Alomomola over Alomomola.

Also rip Shiba. You finally got Celebi back to revive your Celepass teams and the foundation of them is probably about to bottom out :toast:
 

rs

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DrReuniclus wants to ruin my fun

As a big advocate of Baton Pass + Celebi in UU for a long time (since late XY and early ORAS!), the real problem lies with Celebi, and not Baton Pass or Baton Pass + Stat-Boosting moves. There really is no other Baton Passer in the tier like it, trust me, when it left in early ORAS I tried a lot of stuff LOL, like SD Pass Gligar/Absol/Mienshao and NP pass Togetic, and nothing even comes close to the reliability of Celebi. With the ability to pass a Swords Dance OR Nasty Plot, 2 of the best boosting moves in the game to any of its teammates, popular ones being Sharpedo (IM BIG ON THIS ONE), Entei, Yanmega, Hydreigon, and I've even seen stuff like Scarf Sylveon put in some work at +2, there really is no counterplay to it. As most people know, I'm also huge on stuff like slow WP Pass (or just slow pass in general), which is insanely difficult to play around (esp if you don't actually know the set), as it can outslow and tank a hit from the likes of the Nidos, Mega Blastoise, Mandibuzz and more and just pass off a cheeky +2 Atk and +2 SpAtk to the variety of threats/glass cannons in the tier. Here's the set below just to give you an idea what I've been using for so long.


Celebi @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Sassy Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Swords Dance / Nasty Plot
- Baton Pass
- Recover
- Seed Bomb / Giga Drain

It's not that complicated of a set, just max spdef ;]. But anyway, obviously the Minimum speed is insanely important, as it can give you some Pokemon to outslow on the super effective hit + Baton Pass. I've also put some calcs below to give you an idea of just how bulky Celebi is with this investment (then it can proceed to pass off the WP)
S-Ranks it outslows + can pass the WP off of

252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celebi: 242-283 (59.9 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celebi: 276-326 (68.3 - 80.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 264-312 (65.3 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Celebi Signal Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celebi: 200-236 (49.5 - 58.4%) -- 56.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

A+ and below notables

252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celebi: 283-338 (70 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celebi: 289-343 (71.5 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Dread Plate Krookodile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 356-420 (88.1 - 103.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO (with no rocks ofc)
252+ SpA Mega Launcher Mega Blastoise Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celebi: 214-252 (52.9 - 62.3%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celebi: 320-378 (79.2 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 306-362 (75.7 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Sky Plate Crobat Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 366-432 (90.5 - 106.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

ofc there are a multitude of other things it can outslow then pass on, or tank and proceed to Recover + SD/NP + Pass, but these are just a few to measure how bulky Celebi actually is with Baton Pass sets


As I have been playing with this type of set for a REALLY LONG time, I obviously have a ton of replays as well (most are old tho :(), showcasing Celepass

WP Pass replays:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-459449271 (vs dodmen for mafia)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uususpecttest-397551781 (tanks Azelf FB then passes)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uususpecttest-397549488 (Gets WP boosts and proceeds to tank an Aero hit then pass to pedo)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-205715399 (REALLY old replay vs my friend Vapo)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-207319318 (old one w/ Jirachi)
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-196816506 (old one again)

regular Baton Pass replays courtesy of Hogg:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-463547741
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/uu-461436629

oh the old team w/ Rachi also works in OU too in case you guys were wondering,,,

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-260597346
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-378146410


I wish I had more recent ones as most of mine are pretty old, but these should give you a general idea why Celepass is broken

Overall, I wouldn't be opposed to banning Baton Pass + Stat-boosting moves, but again, there are no other (broken) Baton Passers in the tier quite like Celebi, and if I had a vote I'd go with option C. Options A and D aren't wise imo because A prevents things like Specs Sylveon from keeping momentum and D doesn't actually make sense because this tier legitimately has a problem atm.

If you want to read more about why Celebi as a whole is unhealthy, you can scroll through this thread a bit, as there's some pretty good reasoning up there about its versatility and what-not. My post just elaborates on the Celepass side of it. pce :toast:
 
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Celebi is inherently broken in the tier, not baton pass. Switching in to NP + 3 attacks celebi is still a crap-shoot, or forces you to take powerful hits while scouting for what coverage it has if you are playing with balance. This is what made alakazam broken, and what many users believed was the problem with hydreigon, a powerful stat-line mixed with enough coverage to beat any check it needs. While I do not doubt the tier's council is of the highest skill level and caliber, but I believe the community should have had a say on this rather than rushing a vote for times sake. Baton pass has been long standing in ORAS UU without major problem before the advent of Celebi, and a council ban so close to the end of generation seems improper. Baton pass has legitimate use in slow pivoting and mono stat passing that adds to the game, rather than detracting from it, when broken offenders such as celebi are removed, and therefore is worth the preservation over an obviously broken mon.
 

LeoLancaster

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Baton Pass, in its unrestricted form and utilized to its fullest (i.e. full baton pass teams, not drypassing) is broken. Swagger, in its unrestricted form and utilized to its fullest (i.e. Prankster SwagPlay, not Swagger Heracross), is broken. Salamence, in its unrestricted form and utilized to its fullest (i.e. the DD and mixed sets, not Defog sets), is broken (in UU). Yet we hesitate to just ban Baton Pass.

Salamence, despite having a number of qualities that were beneficial to the metagame, was banned in its entirety because trying to define what specific part of it was broken is extremely subjective. Was it access to DD? Good coverage? Moxie? We can't keep around Defog Mence because the dragon was broken as a whole, when utilized to its fullest. Just because there are non-broken ways of using Mence doesn't mean it's not broken.

When dealing with Baton Pass, the only difference is that one is a move and the other is a Pokemon. Full BP chains were broken, speed + other boost passing was broken, NP or SD passing from Celebi is broken. Yet BP was nerfed to a certain point with the idea that the specific parts of it that made it broken could be determined. But alternative nerfs could have been made instead to get to a similar point to where BP is today. For example, prohibiting speed passing and limiting BP to 2 Pokemon on a team wouldn't be broken to the best of my knowledge. We can't keep around Drypassing because the move is broken as a whole, when utilized to its fullest. Just because there are non-broken ways of using BP doesn't mean it's not broken.

There really is no other Baton Passer in the tier like it, trust me, when it left in early ORAS I tried a lot of stuff LOL, like SD Pass Gligar/Absol/Mienshao and NP pass Togetic, and nothing even comes close to the reliability of Celebi.
Defog Salamence doesn't come close to being broken like its DD set was. Swagger Heracross doesn't come close to being broken like Prankster SwagPlay was. It doesn't matter that something isn't broken when not utilized to its fullest (in this case, on worse passers), because that's not what makes it broken.

Baton pass has been long standing in ORAS UU without major problem before the advent of Celebi, and a council ban so close to the end of generation seems improper. Baton pass has legitimate use in slow pivoting and mono stat passing that adds to the game, rather than detracting from it, when broken offenders such as celebi are removed, and therefore is worth the preservation over an obviously broken mon.
Serperior wasn't a problem in UU until it received Contrary. Defog Salamence had legitimate use in being a good check to a lot of things whilst possessing longevity with Roost and not being passive. These aren't reasons to keep a broken game element in the tier.

Shiba said:
With the ability to pass a Swords Dance OR Nasty Plot, 2 of the best boosting moves in the game to any of its teammates, popular ones being Sharpedo (IM BIG ON THIS ONE), Entei, Yanmega, Hydreigon, and I've even seen stuff like Scarf Sylveon put in some work at +2, there really is no counterplay to it.
I would like to touch a bit on this because we agree here and I'd like to offer a slightly unique take on what makes BP broken (in the current metagame). Essentially, being able to BP out your boosts when a counter comes in means there's no reliable way of preventing a good Baton Pass user from doing its job. Either you switch to your counter and watch the boosts passed to something else (with switch initiative!), or you... leave in the Pokemon the passer beats. It's a lose-lose situation. Sacred Fire, Knock Off, and Scald are considered by a decent portion of players to be bad for the game for similar reasons, and although there are more legitimate ways of keeping these moves from creating a complete lose-lose situation (Rest Suicune, Megas/Justified, Dry Skin/Guts), the fact that these moves are borderline broken for how difficult they are to handle is evidence that Baton Pass is definitely broken, imo.
 
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Shadestep

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May I ask, do you guys not have an actual Council? dodmen's post confused me a bit as he stated that the people that voted for the suspect 'people that are respected and valued community members', but excluding your own co-TL from voting seems a bit odd. I know this obviously went in discussion with Sam and he probably agreed to it himself too, but I couldn't find a list of Council-members in the UU Info thread at all. Also, does this mean that Tony will get a TC badge too, from participating in a council vote?

e: oh lol read over that, my point still stands though
 
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UU will be suspecting Baton Pass.

However, we have decided that this test will be left to a council vote only. The following users were chosen to vote in this suspect test, in addition to Sam and myself: Hogg, King UU, IronBullet, Pearl, Christo., Tony, and Ice Tea. All of these people are respected users in the community whose opinions are valued.

While the details are not 100% finalized, we will most likely use a runoff format with the following options:

A) Ban Baton Pass
B) Ban Baton Pass + stat boosting moves and items
C) Suspect Celebi
D) Do nothing
Option A is extremely simple and would be chosen if the voter thinks Baton Pass as a move is inherently unhealthy in the current metagame. Cons: potentially remove healthy or at least not-unhealthy applications such as dry passing, Sub passing, Wish+Baton pass.
Option B is more specific in identifying what potentially makes Baton Pass unhealthy, and would be implemented as a ban in teambuilder. However, this could get pretty complex (for example, what about Charge Beam + Baton Pass, or Absorb Bulb + Baton Pass?)
Option C identifies Celebi as the sole reason why Baton Pass could be considered unhealthy in UU. Celebi is the most common user of Baton Pass and is the main reason that BP was even brought up for discussion. However, it potentially leaves other potentially unhealthy forms of BP in the tier, such as Hogg's Combusken Pass, and furthermore could remove a big part of the UU metagame (Celebi) just for one small aspect of it.
Option D will be chosen if the voter does not see Baton Pass unhealthy in any way.


While this is a council only vote, feel free to discuss your opinions about Baton Pass in this thread. We appreciate insight from everyone, so please do not hesitate to share your thoughts, sample BP teams, replays, etc.
May I ask, do you guys not have an actual Council? dodmen's post confused me a bit as he stated that the people that voted for the suspect 'people that are respected and valued community members', but excluding your own co-TL from voting seems a bit odd. I know this obviously went in discussion with Sam and he probably agreed to it himself too, but I couldn't find a list of Council-members in the UU Info thread at all. Also, does this mean that Tony will get a TC badge too, from participating in a council vote?
???
 

Sam

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Defog Salamence doesn't come close to being broken like its DD set was. Swagger Heracross doesn't come close to being broken like Prankster SwagPlay was. It doesn't matter that something isn't broken when not utilized to its fullest (in this case, on worse passers), because that's not what makes it broken.
This isn't really the case here, though. You're comparing banning a mon to banning a move. By far, banning a mon is a much simpler solution and is generally gonna be preferred. And SwagPlay is a different beast, being much more universally uncompetitive (and having much less of an actual impact with its removal). I think with regards to BP it absolutely matters whether or not there are lesser, non-broken users of it. For a move to be banned it pretty much has to be broken on anything that has it, or be universally uncompetitive (Double Team is another example of this). Something like Double Team Sunkern probably won't be doing anything, but Double Team has the same effect on Sunkern as it does Arceus.

Baton Pass has a lot more nuance to it because there's a ton of variance. Is passing a Swords Dance the same as passing a Nasty Plot? Is passing an attack boost the same as passing a defense boost? What about dry passing vs passing a sub vs passing boosts? If every instance of a mon BPing is broken (and I think the argument here is broken, not uncompetitive) then argue that, but don't argue to ban BP just because of Celebi.
 

Josh

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Sam while you're here and discussing move bans, do you have any thoughts on a sacred fire ban? If you haven't read my post on it it was further up on this page
 
Also, does this mean that Tony will get a TC badge too, from participating in a council vote?


Overall, I wouldn't be opposed to banning Baton Pass + Stat-boosting moves, but again, there are no other (broken) Baton Passers in the tier quite like Celebi, and if I had a vote I'd go with option C.
I wanna touch on this really quickly, since I'm not sure if I agree. First of all, great post. You're actually one of the people whose opinion I was interested in the most and you've worded it nicely, so thanks. :D However, while (as underlined by yourself, too) Celebi is undoubtedly the greatest passer of boosts available in UU, there's definitely alternatives. As complex Baton Pass bans in the past have shown, there will always be an alternative to come back to bite the original decision in the ass.

Option B (banning Baton Pass + stat boosting moves and items) (can we include Focus Energy/Lansat Berry in this, btw?) attracts me the most by far on first glance, but there's some flaws. Could we counter opposing Baton Pass sets like support Sylveon (Hyper Voice, Wish, Protect and Baton Pass is really neat actually!) by using Swagger or Flatter on the turn Baton Pass out for momentum, for example? Or what happens when something accidentally boosts its stats through a move like Meteor Mash or Fiery Dance (first I could think of, probably not the most applicable)? This seems farfetched, but it's still a possible scenario to happen. There's so many loopholes and alternatives to abusing Baton Pass that is might outweigh the niche of dry- and Wish passing. This is also why I can really empathize with YABO's post.

I don't think Celebi is the only reason for Baton Pass being brought up for a vote, as there are alternatives looking to abuse it to a similar extent out there. I also don't think Celebi by itself is too much for UU at the moment, so option C wouldn't have my vote. I'm currently undecided between options A and B, with B having my personal preference, but at the same time I recognize it's not a full-on solution with room for awkward scenarios. I look forward to reading more from you guys about this! :D

Ban Entei.
 
not banning sacred fire
But if you are proposing Celebi ban then why not Sacred fire ban???? Asides from that, there are multiple ways to deal vs buffs, build a team with more than 1 way to do this and you practically can deal with baton pass problems. So if the pokemon is broken when using that move who should be banned? the move or the pokemon? I dont even know myself but refusing to put entei using sacred fire to a proper ban trial is ridiculous.

EDIT> Tonny post above me also aggres on entei ban discrimination.
 
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