Metagame NP: NU Stage 16 - Lucky [Blastoise Banned]

[Meri Berry]

​

Well, here we go. Blastoise has been one of the most controversial Pokemon in the tier since it first entered the tier in December 2020. Almost 2 years later, there's been a constant debate about whether Blastoise is banworthy or not. With Shell Smash, a solid speed tier that puts it above most Scarf users at +2, and good enough coverage in Ice Beam and power to take advantage of the boosts, Blastoise has cemented itself as a hyper offensive staple. It does struggle with certain Pokemon, especially those with Water Absorb, but Dark Pulse and some more niche sets give it room to flinch down its checks. This allows it to occasionally set up sweeps on even prepared teams with proper positioning if it gets the right luck at the right time.

One of the main reasons that Blastoise is different from other breakers that are similar such as Omastar and Inteleon is its speed tier. It is able to outspeed every common scarf user in the tier at +2 other than Heliolisk, including Rotom-Mow, Indeedee-F, and Passimian. This makes it extraordinarily difficult to revenge kill, as you need to either tank a +2 hit from Blastoise, have a priority move, or have one of the very select scarf users that can outspeed Modest Blastoise when set up. Because of this, the burden of checking Blastoise is often placed on defensive counterplay instead.

This defensive counterplay comes in the form of hard checks and soft checks. There are not a lot of hard checks to Blastoise, but most of them are Water-types such as Vaporeon, Mantine, Clear Smog Gastrodon, and Quagsire. These Pokemon are able to take on Blastoise by switching directly into it, barring flinches from the aforementioned Dark Pulse. There are several soft checks to Blastoise such as AV Copperajah, SpDef Dhelmise, Snorlax, Scrafty, Guzzlord, Eldegoss, Sylveon, etc., but these Pokemon either need Blastoise to be chipped first or are required to be at full health to be a proper defensive answer. Counterplay also comes in the form of preventing Blastoise's free setup by attacking it on the susceptible Shell Smash turn, but this often requires risking a vulnerable Pokemon such as Stakataka or Mudsdale that may get attacked instead of the setup move being used.

Set variety is something that also can mitigate the amount of checks that Blastoise has. For example, Substitute sets (over Ice Beam) aim to take advantage of the use of Vaporeon as a check by setting up against it behind its Substitute before knocking out the Vaporeon with Dark Pulse and sweeping the opposing team. Another example is Earthquake (over Dark Pulse) sets, which run Jolly to outspeed Scarf Heliolisk and can KO Pokemon such as Copperajah as well in exchange for not having the option to flinch anymore. This can also take the form of fully Physical sets, which run Facade to beat Scald users or can run Rock Slide to beat Mantine. Finally, there has been experimentation with Normal Gem + Hyper Beam sets to get rid of Water Absorb Pokemon after a Shell Smash or two.

It's also worth considering that although Blastoise can be considered to have many soft checks on its own, they cannot be taken into isolation as Hyper Offense builds can support Blastoise very well. Most Hyper Offense builds will run a Pokemon that can abuse Vaporeon which is forced in by Blastoise, but besides this, Blastoise can take advantage of most Terrain setters in the tier. Both Grassy Terrain and Electric Terrain give Blastoise a Terrain Pulse that beats many of its checks, and Indeedee-F makes Blastoise virtually impossible to revenge kill by taking away the option to use priority moves against it.

Overall, Blastoise is undeniably checkable, but has several ways to either mitigate its checks or force its way through them with a factor of luck. This makes it centralizing in the teambuilder, as oftentimes having one check to Blastoise is not enough in isolation to cover the many sets it runs and team archetypes that Blastoise singlehandedly enables. Blastoise is a rather unique Pokemon in that most Hyper Offense Pokemon by themselves can be outplayed or mitigated with a well built team, but Blastoise will 6-0 you if you don't have a proper check despite having a handful of very comfortable ones. This makes it polarizing unlike any other Pokemon, and although its far from the best Pokemon in the tier, this dynamic makes it suspect-worthy.

• Reading this is mandatory for participating in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 79 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 79 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 83. Also, needing more than 50 games to reach 79 GXE will suffice. **It is now 79 GXE**

minimum games needed

GXE	minimum games
79	50
79.2	49
79.4	48
79.6	47
79.8	46
80	45
80.2	44
80.4	43
80.6	42
80.8	41
81	40
81.2	39
81.4	38
81.6	37
81.8	36
82	35
82.2	34
82.4	33
82.6	32
82.8	31
83	30

• You must signup with a newly registered account on Pokemon Showdown! that begins with the appropriate prefix for the suspect test. For this suspect test, the prefix will be NUZC For example, I might signup with the ladder account NUZC Meri
• Laddering with an account that impersonates, mocks, or insults another Smogon user or breaks Pokemon Showdown! rules may be disqualified from voting and infracted. Moderator discretion will be applied here. If there is any doubt or hesitance when making the alt, just pick another name. There are infinite possibilities and we have had trouble for this repeatedly. If you wish to participate in the suspect, you should be able to exhibit decent enough judgement here. We will not be lenient.
• We will be using the regular NU ladder for this suspect test. We will not be creating a new Suspect Ladder. At the beginning of every battle, there will be an announcement denoting the ongoing suspect with a link to this thread.
• The aspects being tested, Blastoise, will be allowed on the ladder.
• Any form of voting manipulation will result in swift and severe punishment. You are more than welcome to state your argument to as many people as you so please, but do not use any kind of underhanded tactics to get a result you desire. Bribery, blackmail, or any other type of tactic used to sway votes will be handled and sanctioned.
• Do not attempt to cheat the ladder. We will know if you did not actually achieve voting requisites, so don't do it. Harsh sanctions will be applied.
• The suspect test will go on for two weeks, lasting until Saturday, September 17th @ 11:59pm (GMT-4), and then we will put up the voting thread in the Blind Voting subforum.

Tagging Kris and Marty to implement this, thanks!

 

[Rabia]

yo i forgot we actually went through with this LMAOOOOOO

 

[Rabia]

ok real effort post time

I think Blastoise is a terribly overrated piece of shit Pokemon that gets a ton of hype because it's a Shell Smash sweeper that oftentimes relies on luck to win games. Anytime you have a sweeper that has one of those super high-powered setup moves, it's always guaranteed to draw ire from people. We've seen that with the Belly Drum users throughout the history of lower tiers especially, but Blastoise takes it to the nth degree because you're adding on the possibilities for Dark Pulse flinching, Ice Beam freezing, and moves that OHKO Blastoise flat-out missing. And, if you're Togkey, these occurrences are seemingly 6x more likely than they should be.

However, it's precisely that reason I think Blastoise was not worth our time to suspect at ANY point in this generation. It's not very good at what it does! The amount of prior setup Blastoise needs to actually 6-0 teams like people often claim it does is insane; even at +2 Blastoise struggles to sweep because it's just not that strong for a setup Pokemon. Hell, even at +4 you'll see it fail to reliably beat a fairly high amount of common defensive Pokemon in the tier that can somewhat reliably push back against it.

One of the other common points I've seen raised against Blastoise is set versatility; you technically can run physical movesets on Blastoise or even mixed, and that makes answers like Mantine, Araquanid, Choice Scarf Heliolisk, and Sylveon less reliable. However, this viewpoint tends to not acknowledge the drawbacks to these sets, in particular ceding the Vaporeon matchup and still being walled by Quagsire and Gastrodon, among a few others.

I think what has me lowest on Blastoise's actual efficacy, though, is its lack of success in tournaments. Some people say it's because people overprepare for Blastoise all the time because it's just that good. I disagree, and I've found through my own experience that builds somewhat weak to Blastoise can almost always play the matchup out and still win. Something I've seen far too many times is people will just let Blastoise set up for free and then panic very hard against it. There's been a weird refusal to just hit the bastard as it boosts and then play against a 50% Blastoise instead of a 100% Blastoise as you switch to Vaporeon on its Shell Smash. This is to say people tend to look at Blastoise like this: you have to run multiple checks in the builder that can always switch into Blastoise on the Shell Smash and still beat it. There's been a severe lack of acknowledging how you can position properly against it in-game to limit setup chances, and even if you DO give it a somewhat favorable spot to boost (perhaps against a Mudsdale or Stakataka), it's truly not that dire because Blastoise is not a strong Pokemon and MUST boost to be a threat.

I've also seen some people that say offense isn't great right now because of Blastoise, and honestly I just disagree. If anything, I find offense to be better than balance into Blastoise because it can seldom find a safe setup chance. It's just not a reliable matchup and is more on paper than anything.

All in all, though, I don't think a Blastoise ban moves the needle much for the tier. I think it makes cheesing matchups a bit harder sure, and maybe a ban is reasonable from that perspective if we're just aiming to clean up the metagame at the end of this generation. However, I find its threat level consistently overstated and based around the literal ideal scenario (without fail! the Blastoise is somehow always at +4, at full, and always getting freezes and flinches if necessary). Blastoise's overall tournament success shows that it is a non-factor in most games it's used in, even when it wins.

 

[Stories]

got reqs

I wish Blastoise was more centralizing or broken so a quickban would be justified; nobody wants this thing in the tier. It's very telling that even those who disagree with the sentiment that Blastoise is banworthy still wouldn't mind the Pokemon leaving. It's a toxic MU fish Pokemon that only exists to call out the builder that didn't stack 2 or more "checks" or use the bog standard Vaporeon balance that everyone complains about for being so common.

We've seen very little exploration of anti-meta sets such as physical variants with Earthquake or Facade which both beat almost every traditional check, or Substitute sets which exploit the passivity of Pokemon like Gastrodon, Quagsire, Mantine, and Vaporeon and utilizes its natural bulk to be able to reliably fish for Dark Pulse flinches; it becomes statistically probable to get 2 flinches at some point. Despite the lack of development with Blastoise, ladder heroes are still capable of just clicking the 3 attacks importable and although Blastoise is quite easy to manage defensively with an admittedly wide pool of Pokemon, if you lack 2 or more of those Pokemon you're quite vulnerable to being swept by Blastoise due to its lack of offensive checks. With Sirfetch'd banned, the Pokemon that can offensively pressure a boosted Blastoise has dropped down to roughly 1.5, Scarf Heliolisk and maybe Sucker Punch Grimmsnarl (they both suck). This gives you the option of stacking multiple defensive Pokemon or just losing to Blastoise, making general offense teams quite rare in NU. The restrictions I talk about over and over again aren't what species of Pokemon are forced onto your team to make it safe from Blastoise, but rather the archetype of Pokemon. Sure there's about 20 very solid defensive Blastoise checks, but it doesn't matter if the missing piece to your team wants to be something offensive.

The points of attacking Blastoise while it sets up are valid.. sometimes. Many Pokemon meant to beat Blastoise can end up losing 1v1 with unlucky rolls if they push it into Torrent range, Sylveon or Snorlax barely missing the 2HKO for example. Even super-effective attacks like a Copperajah Power Whip or a Thunderbolt from Rotom-C or Heliolisk may just fail to OHKO, and clicking Leaf Storm with Rotom-C against the hyper offense teams Blastoise is commonly seen on can mean leaving a perfect setup opportunity for one of Blastoise's teammates. Blastoise's amazing natural bulk paired with its coverage and speed after a boost can be too much for almost any check sometimes.

I think Blastoise should have gone a while ago, but I'm extremely happy to see this suspect test and gives me high hopes as we near the end of the generation.

lowkey ashamed of myself but here's the team I used

 

[Tal]

ok real effort post time

I think Blastoise is a terribly overrated piece of shit Pokemon that gets a ton of hype because it's a Shell Smash sweeper that oftentimes relies on luck to win games. Anytime you have a sweeper that has one of those super high-powered setup moves, it's always guaranteed to draw ire from people. We've seen that with the Belly Drum users throughout the history of lower tiers especially, but Blastoise takes it to the nth degree because you're adding on the possibilities for Dark Pulse flinching, Ice Beam freezing, and moves that OHKO Blastoise flat-out missing. And, if you're Togkey, these occurrences are seemingly 6x more likely than they should be.

However, it's precisely that reason I think Blastoise was not worth our time to suspect at ANY point in this generation. It's not very good at what it does! The amount of prior setup Blastoise needs to actually 6-0 teams like people often claim it does is insane; even at +2 Blastoise struggles to sweep because it's just not that strong for a setup Pokemon. Hell, even at +4 you'll see it fail to reliably beat a fairly high amount of common defensive Pokemon in the tier that can somewhat reliably push back against it.

One of the other common points I've seen raised against Blastoise is set versatility; you technically can run physical movesets on Blastoise or even mixed, and that makes answers like Mantine, Araquanid, Choice Scarf Heliolisk, and Sylveon less reliable. However, this viewpoint tends to not acknowledge the drawbacks to these sets, in particular ceding the Vaporeon matchup and still being walled by Quagsire and Gastrodon, among a few others.

I think what has me lowest on Blastoise's actual efficacy, though, is its lack of success in tournaments. Some people say it's because people overprepare for Blastoise all the time because it's just that good. I disagree, and I've found through my own experience that builds somewhat weak to Blastoise can almost always play the matchup out and still win. Something I've seen far too many times is people will just let Blastoise set up for free and then panic very hard against it. There's been a weird refusal to just hit the bastard as it boosts and then play against a 50% Blastoise instead of a 100% Blastoise as you switch to Vaporeon on its Shell Smash. This is to say people tend to look at Blastoise like this: you have to run multiple checks in the builder that can always switch into Blastoise on the Shell Smash and still beat it. There's been a severe lack of acknowledging how you can position properly against it in-game to limit setup chances, and even if you DO give it a somewhat favorable spot to boost (perhaps against a Mudsdale or Stakataka), it's truly not that dire because Blastoise is not a strong Pokemon and MUST boost to be a threat.

I've also seen some people that say offense isn't great right now because of Blastoise, and honestly I just disagree. If anything, I find offense to be better than balance into Blastoise because it can seldom find a safe setup chance. It's just not a reliable matchup and is more on paper than anything.

All in all, though, I don't think a Blastoise ban moves the needle much for the tier. I think it makes cheesing matchups a bit harder sure, and maybe a ban is reasonable from that perspective if we're just aiming to clean up the metagame at the end of this generation. However, I find its threat level consistently overstated and based around the literal ideal scenario (without fail! the Blastoise is somehow always at +4, at full, and always getting freezes and flinches if necessary). Blastoise's overall tournament success shows that it is a non-factor in most games it's used in, even when it wins.

I agree that Blastoise isn't broken in the current NU meta, and most balanced teams are able to check it at least semi-consistently, but it is uncompetitive and unhealthy. Blastoise feels lacking in games and IMO it's rare for it to win straight from team preview with the huge amount of Vaporeon usage, but ideally balanced builds aren't shoehorned into using vaporeon and more team diversity exists, and this can't as easily be done with blastoise still being legal.

It deserves to be banned, not because it's an unstoppable instant win set-up sweeper, but because it's an unhealthy part of the metagame through match-up fishing and centralising team building further around Wish Vaporeon builds. Offence teams are forced to never give up a free turn out of fear of giving Blastoise a free Shell Smash, and a mon’ whose main use is to counter team offence or fish for flinches against its checks isn't a worthwhile thing to keep in the tier.

A ban definitely wouldn't dramatically alter the tier, but regardless it's still a step in the right direction and towards a slightly more decentralised metagame. If Blastoise contributes nearly nothing positive to the tier, and is only slightly negative, then surely it's still worth banning despite how little it can be considered to be “moving the needle”.

 

[Rabia]

I agree that Blastoise isn't broken in the current NU meta, and most balanced teams are able to check it at least semi-consistently, but it is uncompetitive and unhealthy. Blastoise feels lacking in games and IMO it's rare for it to win straight from team preview with the huge amount of Vaporeon usage, but ideally balanced builds aren't shoehorned into using vaporeon and more team diversity exists, and this can't as easily be done with blastoise still being legal.

This is flat-out wrong and something I've seen said an awful lot over the months, but Vaporeon builds are honestly not that consistent into Blastoise to begin with; Vaporeon sees its insane usage because of other reasons (its Wish cores are incredible this generation compared to USUM NU especially, the pool of high-usage Pokemon that easily punish it Wish passing isn't as high, and Protect scouting is just really valued because of wallbreakers present like Indeedee-F and Passimian). There are plenty of other viable Water-types (Quagsire, Gastrodon, Mantine) that result in very distinct structures from your standard Vaporeon balance. You can argue against how good they are relative to Vaporeon ones, sure. But this notion that Blastoise and Blastoise especially causes Vaporeon's insane use or is even a predominant factor is incorrect.

e: What I mean by "Vaporeon builds are not that consistent into Blastoise" is more that relying on Vaporeon to handle Blastoise isn't super consistent. You need to get that Scald burn and get super lucky with flinches to not lose. The other Water-types are surprisingly more consistent against the standard Blastoise set and generally aren't fodder to the most common set adaptations either, so I find those structures usually match up better and are still very viable in the metagame as a whole.

 

[Tal]

This is flat-out wrong and something I've seen said an awful lot over the months, but Vaporeon builds are honestly not that consistent into Blastoise to begin with; Vaporeon sees its insane usage because of other reasons (its Wish cores are incredible this generation compared to USUM NU especially, the pool of high-usage Pokemon that easily punish it Wish passing isn't as high, and Protect scouting is just really valued because of wallbreakers present like Indeedee-F and Passimian). There are plenty of other viable Water-types (Quagsire, Gastrodon, Mantine) that result in very distinct structures from your standard Vaporeon balance. You can argue against how good they are relative to Vaporeon ones, sure. But this notion that Blastoise and Blastoise especially causes Vaporeon's insane use or is even a predominant factor is incorrect.

e: What I mean by "Vaporeon builds are not that consistent into Blastoise" is more that relying on Vaporeon to handle Blastoise isn't super consistent. You need to get that Scald burn and get super lucky with flinches to not lose. The other Water-types are surprisingly more consistent against the standard Blastoise set and generally aren't fodder to the most common set adaptations either, so I find those structures usually match up better and are still very viable in the metagame as a whole.

To clarify I don't think that Vaporeon is the best or most consistent check to Blastoise but regardless it is a check that a large amount of teams use because it is the best pokemon that can also semi-reliably check blastoise. This doesnt mean solely relying on Vaporeon to check blastoise, but for example clicking toxic with Stakataka before switching into Vap to stall it out allows Vapoeron to act as a check. If you wanted the perfect Blastoise counter you'd go with SpDef Unaware Pyukumuku, but thats never seen because pokemon isnt played in a vaccuum and what a mon does outside of being a Blastoise check is incredibly important. Moving away from Vaporeon and opting for Quagsire, Gastrodon, or Mantine means losing out on the valuable utility Vap provides in Wish, Heal Bell, and Flip Turn which I think you agree with when saying that you can argue against how good they are relative to Vaporeon.

I didn't mean to imply that Blastoise has led to the high Vaporeon usage rate, instead I meant that Vaps already high usage keeps it in check because I believe this is a key part that keeps it from being considered a broken pokemon. In other words its not broken because most teams are already naturally prepared for it. But Blastoise punishes non-standard builds that lack a bulky water type and cant keep enough momentum to force it out, and when choosing a bulky water to add to a team there's almost no reason not to add Vaporeon. Essentially, Blastoise does not mandate Vaporeon, although it does require a bulky water to defesively check, and vaporeon is the standard that most people go for, leading to a more defensively oriented metagame.

To clarify about Vap usage and Stoise

I hope this is clear that i mean blastoise does not lead to high vap usage in particular, but without vap its more difficult to build coherent teams that still match up well against non-blastoise teams. By building around Quag, Gastro, or Mantine you open yourself up to worse matchups vs the rest of the meta.

Stoise is unhealthy and uncompetitive, despite it not being broken. Its role in the meta is to ruin teams that don't run a bulky water, which incentivizes more use of defensive water types, and more standard cores, even if they don't necessarily involve the traditional Wish Vap builds. I don't see any way that the meta will be worse off with the absence of Blastoise, although there would be slightly more incentive to use offense and builds that don't involve a bulky water. Even if it only decreases Vap usage by 1% I'd still argue its worthwhile in order to slightly broaden the range of teams that are viable.

Anyway, I think we mostly agree that Blastoise isn't overpowered and its kind of shit. But it still impacts on teambuilding and does nothing but fish for good matchups, and that's not something that is constructive for a competitive metagame. I think its fair to be no-ban based on its lack of usage and win rate, but its ultimately non-beneficial to the tier.

 

[Rabia]

To clarify I don't think that Vaporeon is the best or most consistent check to Blastoise but regardless it is a check that a large amount of teams use because it is the best pokemon that can also semi-reliably check blastoise. This doesnt mean solely relying on Vaporeon to check blastoise, but for example clicking toxic with Stakataka before switching into Vap to stall it out allows Vapoeron to act as a check. If you wanted the perfect Blastoise counter you'd go with SpDef Unaware Pyukumuku, but thats never seen because pokemon isnt played in a vaccuum and what a mon does outside of being a Blastoise check is incredibly important. Moving away from Vaporeon and opting for Quagsire, Gastrodon, or Mantine means losing out on the valuable utility Vap provides in Wish, Heal Bell, and Flip Turn which I think you agree with when saying that you can argue against how good they are relative to Vaporeon.

What's incredibly ironic about this portion of your post is that it actually acknowledges something I and others have stated for awhile now: people need to be less afraid of staying in against Blastoise and hitting or statusing it. An example of what you outline is Danny vs Confide from NUPL week 2, where Confide simply stays in with his Mudsdale, poisons the Blastoise, and then easily stalls it out with Vaporeon.

However, I think you discredit the other defensive cores a bit much by focusing so much on how easily Vaporeon can go from there to beat Blastoise. Yeah, it's the most reliable, but it's not like Mantine, Gastrodon, and Quagsire are getting reamed by even +4 Blastoise:

+4 252+ SpA Blastoise Surf vs. 252 HP / 68 SpD Unaware Quagsire: 156-184 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (Quagsire also runs Protect fairly frequently nowadays, so you can rack up the additional poison damage a la Vaporeon)

+4 252+ SpA Blastoise Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 175-207 (41 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (must flinch multiple times to KO Gastrodon, and unless you get exceedingly lucky, you're looking at a trade in your best-case scenario)

+4 252+ SpA Blastoise Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 16+ SpD Mantine: 144-170 (38.5 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (same as above)

(Yeah, I'm calcing Dark Pulse > Ice Beam despite the latter being stronger, but given how these sequences usually come down to the Blastoise user praying for flinches to break the Water-types, that seems fair.)

I didn't mean to imply that Blastoise has led to the high Vaporeon usage rate, instead I meant that Vaps already high usage keeps it in check because I believe this is a key part that keeps it from being considered a broken pokemon. In other words its not broken because most teams are already naturally prepared for it. But Blastoise punishes non-standard builds that lack a bulky water type and cant keep enough momentum to force it out, and when choosing a bulky water to add to a team there's almost no reason not to add Vaporeon. Essentially, Blastoise does not mandate Vaporeon, although it does require a bulky water to defesively check, and vaporeon is the standard that most people go for, leading to a more defensively oriented metagame.

Blastoise doesn't require a bulky Water-type to defensively check; those are certainly the most consistent options but not the only. Curselax, Assault Vest Copperajah (depending on Blastoise set), Sylveon, and Yache Berry Grass-types all fit this mold, and although you can certainly argue that you'd seldom see the latter in a non-Blastoise metagame, the fact remains it's a reasonable adaptation for teams to make if they want to shore that matchup up some.

The metagame is hardly defensively oriented. Balance is absolutely thriving in its current state, and I find that to be the sign of general metagame health if anything. People have also continued to succeed with hyper offense, stall, and really any other archetype you can name. There's the notion that offense itself is not great currently because Blastoise can Shell Smash and sweep it; that's sort of just the reality of a Shell Smash sweeper. Omastar would have a similar effect, even if not to the same degree as Blastoise.

Anyway, I think we mostly agree that Blastoise isn't overpowered and its kind of shit. But it still impacts on teambuilding and does nothing but fish for good matchups, and that's not something that is constructive for a competitive metagame. I think its fair to be no-ban based on its lack of usage and win rate, but its ultimately non-beneficial to the tier.

The fact we are openly arguing a "kind of shit" Pokemon is worth banning is incredible. A Pokemon being good at matchup fishing should not be something it gets banned for. We'd ban Scrafty if it was. We'd ban Tyrantrum if it was. Hell, we'd ban Inteleon if it was. There will always be an element of matchup fishing permitted in a metagame; that's just the game we play. I won't dispute that Blastoise doesn't actually offer anything positive to the tier beyond a tool for hyper offense that can piss off many of my room staff (<3 love you guys!!!), but there are a multitude of other Pokemon currently in NU that you can argue "offer nothing" for the tier. Will we ban them? I doubt it, and we shouldn't be banning Blastoise either.

---

I'm likely done posting in this thread because I think I've said about all the unique thoughts I can, so if you'd like to discuss this topic with me any more (@ anyone), feel free to in NU Discord or the PS! room.

 

[UberFiend]

While laddering for reqs. I encountered no Blastoise. It took 2 days totalling about, 16 matches a day, give or take the long pauses between matches and work. Oddly enough it was sadly easy unlike last suspect... I find Blastoise not at all difficult to deal with. Mostly everyone knows what pokemon a dislike, or should I say Ability. I feel if Blastoise goes nu will lose yet another offensive Mon.

 

[Phantomistix]

Currently laddering as I write this, p insane start so far with minimal hax for once. Was going to write up a samples post with a few of the HO teams I've been using but with the suspect going this would be a more appropriate place to post for now.

I've been pushing for action against Blastoise for well over a year now, and my opinion has not changed one bit. If anything it's only strengthened as I polished up my builds. Blastoise does not do much outside HO builds other than force people to play more conservatively, but HO gives it an opportunity to shine and use its strengths to the best potential possible. With proper sequencing, a Blastoise endgame is EXTREMELY easy to set up, and with how centralized the meta is, sequencing is fairly easy to learn as most teams share very similar cores, and ones that deviate are often weaker to Blastoise/other HO mon by default. I can't speak for others but so far I've loaded/faced HO 9 times in NU swiss, and HO has won every single game, with Blastoise being on 6 of the winning teams.

I feel like the best explanation as to why Blastoise stands out among other offensive mons is Togkey's. Blastoise can hit 510/524/560 (depending on which spread you're using) speed with the click of a button, outspeed every single pokemon in the tier, scarfed or not. It can tech moves to beat whatever check it needs to beat based on what it's partners need broken/can break. EQ is extremely good, allowing it to beat Vaporeon if it doesn't get burnt, as well as beating Copperajah and doing more damage to Snorlax, and most importantly, scoring an OHKO on Heliolisk, the only offensive check to Blastoise (a check that still loses to Blastoise btw). The standard DP can break Vaporeon/Mantine/Gastrodon, and Terrain Pulse on terrain teams is VERY intimidating, able to score OHKOs on all 4 bulky waters, with psychic TP allowing it to OHKO wierd Vileplume spreads as well as dodge priority. Torrent is also valuable in that it allows it to 1v1 Quagsire in certain scenarios without the aid of terrain. Blastoise can also utilize bulkier subsmash sets, which are the most dangerous imo, but require a lot more support and do less outside their target matchup which is why a lot of people tend to shy away from them, myself included. It's also worth mentioning Quagsire can NEVER switch into Blastoise safely, often having to sack a mon, which is still very net positive for the Blastoise in most matchups as it gets rid of a mon and forces in a very passive one that is very easy to take advantage of, especially on HO builds.

A lot of the arguments I've seen look at Blastoise in a 1 vs entire team way. Looking at scenarios like 'Mudsdale toxic's toise as it smashes and then vapo stalls it out' is a very bad way of thinking about this mon. This all relies on a VERY risky 50/50, which could result in you losing your mudsdale with nothing to show for it, not to mention a scenario like that will likely never happen in a Blastoise endgame, more likely in a midgame, which the HO player should have figured out and a play like this would only net them positive results in the endgame. Blastoise will either have teammates that can prevent a losing situation like this and set up a proper win, or would break and create a winning situation for its teammates.

Recently I've been seeing people say HO is bad/unusable, which it very much is not. I'd argue that HO can consistently beat 99% of its matchups, and that's largely due to Blastoise's commanding presence in the teambuilder, forcing people to stack multiple defensive checks due to the lack of offensive checks. These are a few of the HO teams I've been using the past few months, able to produce very consistent results in tour games, test games, and on the ladder.

https://pokepast.es/c064a297cc036b45
https://pokepast.es/0be244d6bae4f428
https://pokepast.es/e67ba1b339df0876
https://pokepast.es/522569fda52d6fc4
https://pokepast.es/99a0fac6b862ca00
https://pokepast.es/7d8238044b69a0a5 - currently laddering w this
https://pokepast.es/1be8f5e04a4711e9
https://pokepast.es/493634b2362fa746

HO is not the braindead playstyle everyone makes it out to be. You have to be able to sequence games correctly to produce consistent results, playing out different scenarios and figuring out the optimal plays long before you get to a turn is essential.

Blastoise should not be looked at in a vacuum. It is the single most warping presence in the teambuilder and has no offensive checks. A mon that can only be checked defensively is not a healthy presence and needs to go, especially when you consider that the builds it's most prominent on are very good at abusing those defensive checks.

 

[Lobby Eeveee]

I’m on the fence but quote this if you wanna convince me, but I have something to say. Ppl rn are complaining about Vaporeon Balance but I made a Druddigon Build to destroy these teams


Druddigon @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 116 HP / 252 Atk / 140 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fire Punch
- Iron Head
- Thunder Punch
- Taunt

speed EVs are to outspeed 0 speed 31 IV vaporeon btw

Now this is a set that obliterates these balance teams. Thunder punch kills vaporeon, iron head does a massive chunk to Sylveon and has a small chance to OHKO, Fire punch for steels and grasses. For the fourth slot I wanted to deal with mudsdale, so I slotted in taunt, so they are forced to switch or attack.

I would like any optimizations of this set

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

Gosh guys I'm not sure I'm really on the fence with this one and what I'll vote. With this suspect test, we're not just reevaluating what could be healthiest for the metagame, but we're also drawing the line at what we think is too haxy. I see that the flinch / freeze debate is already brought up, and I know it's unfamiliar at first for a lot of us to think that a sweeper with only 10% / 20% odds would be problematic, yet here we are. Is Blastoise too uncompetitive for the NU tier?

In general, I don't think we need to be gunning for any setup sweeper that can flinch its way to victory. However, with Blastoise, the ease at which it sets up and fishes for hax is something we're all a lot more familiar with. The concept that a sweeper can get to nearly un-revenge-killable speed and strength only for it to also have an out through low dice rolls is almost certainly uncompetitive. With all the experience we've had with Blastoise, and all the "undeserved" wins it's accomplished, it's easy to see this threat as factor making the game less skillful.

Overall, though, this level of hax is still pretty low, and the centralization from Blastoise has been "acceptable" all this time because of all the viable, worthwhile checks teams can fit. Other sweepers have at the very least critical hits to compare to, which is more comparable to Blastoise hax when it needs multiple flinches in some cases. Its main counters are all great Pokexmon in the meta that, surely, will remain viable without its presence. Even if the tier has the chance to improve with its absence, Blastoise may not have enough inherently wrong with it to justify pushing it over the edge.

Great discussion so far loved all the points! I'll make a gametime decision at the time of voting to either ban or dnb Blastoise.

 

[roxie]

Blastoise has been banned from SS NU.

 

[Stories]

Poison-types are by far the best in the tier. I cannot sugarcoat it, our Ground-types are stretched too thinly and hardly even beat most Poison-types, and all the Steel-types lose to the Poison-types.

I've ordered these Pokemon in varying degrees of viability and will just explain why they're so potent and what you can do to prepare for them. (might add Drapion and Weezing later)
​

Vileplume

Strength Sap rivals post BW Knock Off and gen 5-6 Scald for the most over-tuned move of all time; healing yourself, typically up to full HP, while also weakening your opponent is just too powerful. There are ways to prevent a Vileplume from sapping you (Magic Bounce Xatu or Sap Sipper Pokemon) but they prove to be quite vulnerable to Vileplume's naturally powerful Sludge Bomb, and those Steel-types and special walls like Guzzlord and Mantine that can ignore or shrug off Sludge Bomb may fall pray to Vileplume's trapping set; a combination of Infestation and Leech Seed, which can open up a specially offensive teammate like Choice Scarf Indeedee to demolish the remainder of the opposing team. Vileplume also boasts annoying utility and disruption moves in Sleep Powder and Corrosive Gas, meaning even offensive "checks" like Salazzle and Talonflame have their switchins severely limited. Vileplume can also prove to be a potent wallbreaker using Growth to allow it to muscle past the aforementioned special walls such as Guzzlord and Mantine or Scrafty while also punishing any Protecting or switching made to attempt to scout out Vileplume's set. Vileplume's versatilty and combination of typing and moves means there's not really any "true" checks to it.

While Vileplume has the tools to annoy even its most reliable checks, they're still checks. Salazzle can shrug off a few Sludge Bombs and immediately threaten an OHKO or a relatively free Nasty Plot to sweep or break entire teams. Xatu's Psychic does big damage and Magic Bounce can steal Vileplume's Strength Sap, preventing a low-health Vileplume from healing even if it may use Sludge Bomb on Xatu. Goodra Drampa, everyone's favorite Sap Sipper Dragon-type can also block Strength Sap and threaten to setup or OHKO Vileplume in a similar vein to Salazzle.
Escavalier typically finds itself falling victim to Vileplume's trapping set and struggles to break through Vileplume even if its not the trapping set, but Megahorn with Swords Dance and RestTalk allows Escavalier to stave off Leech Seed, Infestation, and Rocky Helmet damage while ignoring Sludge Bomb, and can safely attempt to reach +6 attack for a clean OHKO on Vileplume. Although not taking Sludge Bomb as well as Salazzle, Indeedee-F threatens a nasty OHKO while also being nearly impossible to reliably switch into, meaning granting it an opportunity to hit the field can be quite a detriment. This applies to other potent special attackers with a type advantage offensively such as Starmie and Vanilluxe as well. Strength Sap typically means that physical attackers are doomed against Vileplume, but some Pokemon can out-boost Vileplume with natural bulk and Swords Dance, such as Silvally-Ground, Gallade, and Toxicroak.

Salazzle

Salazzle, much like Vileplume, has a very small pool of reliable checks, and notably an even smaller pool of Pokemon that can check it over the course of a longer game because Salazzle has a toolbag of ways to cripple the longevity of defensive staples. with Knock Off to remove Leftovers and Sludge Bomb and Toxic to spread poison, Salazzle can very easily put its checks into range of being KO'd, even 2HKOing Quagsire with Overheat after poison damage. Besides passive damage, Salazzle can annoy defensive answers even further with the likes of Encore or Endeavor while at low HP. Despite its frailty, Salazzle's typing grants it a surprising number of chances to hit the field, walling Vileplume, Weezing, and Sylveon. Salazzle's blistering speed means only the fastest Pokemon in the tier like Talonflame, Inteleon, and Aerodactyl and Choice Scarf users can outspeed it, making it quite difficult to offensive pressure. This combination of qualities makes Salazzle nearly impossible to manage long-term.

While being able to weaken its checks, that doesn't mean they're KO'd immediately. Pokemon with defensive type advantages and even semi-reliable recovery can make Salazzle's job quite diffifult; Vaporeon, Gastrodon, and Aerodactyl can come in frequently and threaten an OHKO or heal. bulky Pokemon like Stakataka, Snorlax, or Guzzlord don't have the most reliable recovery but have the stats to simply facetank Salazzle's hits, and the latter two often use Rest which can further extend their longevity, although leaves them vulnerable to Nasty Plot setting up. While Salazzle's typing lets it setup on specific metagame staples, its poor defensive stats mean any faster Pokemon or Choice Scarf user can always threaten an OHKO or close to it even with neutral moves like Talonflame Brave Bird or Rotom-Mow Thunderbolt. Besides Stakataka, there are plenty of viable Rock-types that can take on Salazzle, such as Diancie, Rhydon, and Gigalith on Sandstorm teams, which have plenty of ways to manage Salazzle with Sand Rush-boosted Lycanroc and Sandslash at their disposal. Bulky Water-types like Jellicent, Aquanid, and Mantine along with Vaporeon can also consistently check Salazzle, although Knock Off or poison damage can end up being quite difficult to manage.

Toxicroak

Toxicroak is the final Pokemon where I'd say its "checks" are just a thin blurred line. Depending on the moves and physical / special orientation it can break through anything with a great defensive profile allowing it to do so very often. Commonly exploiting the infamous Vaporeon balance teams, Toxicroak completely walls Vaporeon, even if its boasting the rare Toxic, and can even threaten a KO on Vaporeon's most common partner, Mudsdale, with a +2 Adamant Life Orb Low Kick. Mudsdale is probably the closest thing to a defensive "check" and it can just be flat-out OHKO'd by a low-commitment alternative to Drain Punch. Toxicroak does have a solid pool of offensive checks; Salazzle, Talonflame, Silvally-Ground, but these Pokemon hate coming in on a certain attack and would much rather come in on an attempted Swords Dance and force Toxicroak out. Toxicroak can also opt for Nasty Plot sets which completely bypass traditional checks like Weezing and Mudsdale and other hard physical walls. Vacuum Wave and Sucker Punch serve as suitable priority to help Toxicroak pick off weakened faster threats, or Knock Off can be used to cripple its checks to break them more easily later in the game.

Toxicroak may have a set for every situation, but it can't use all of them at once, and each one has its own share of drawbacks. Low Kick sets may be able to easily take out Mudsdale, but only with an Adamant nature and Life Orb, making Toxicroak slower than fellow base 85's like Timid Indeedee-F, and no Drain Punch to offset Life Orb recoil can make Toxicroak easier to wear down, especially with Rocky Helmet and the U-Turn's Toxicroak typically doesn't mind due to its 4x resistance to it. Conversely, Drain Punch sets have more longevity but cannot break the likes of Mudsdale as easily, or get that OHKO on Snorlax like Low Kick can. Physical Toxicroak gets completely invalidated by Weezing, even if it has the rare Taunt which would allow it to set up in its face, although Special sets make Weezing setup fodder. Many other Ground-types like Gastrodon and Quagsire may not like taking Life Orb-boosted attacks but they are able to and can consistently recover off the damage, although a Gunk Shot poison or Knock Off may make the rolls more uncomfortable. Overall Toxicroak requires some scouting and intuition to determine its set and best manage it, but its 4mss and poor defensive stats despite its great typing and ability can mean it could end up doing nothing in a game.

 

[Finchinator]

Through a few weeks of SCL, I find that Indeedee-F warps the tier quite a bit. I am not saying that it is going to outright dominate every game, but I feel it has a stronghold on teambuilding that nothing else can claim to. I worry that this restriction limits what we can do with teambuilding and singlehandedly shifts a lot of viability -- you can see this directly with some Steel or Dark types, but also indirectly with alternatives to specific roles seeing less usage as well. I find this dynamic to be less than ideal.

Vileplume is also very challenging to beat, especially with Growth sets. Some things struggle to switch into Sludge Bomb as the game draws out while others cannot handle Strength Sap replenishing the health of Vileplume. I am less sure I would label it as broken so much as annoying and frustrating honestly, but it surely warrants some discussion.

 

[aim]

indeedee is incredibly restricting. feel forced to run with copper/staka, with a back up dark like scrafty or guzzlord...or worse...drapion. both choice sets are so incredibly dangerous and CM colbur sets can smash its "counters." lots of sick viable steels (escav) among others are seeing little to no usage in tour play cause of fear of the 4x hit. i struggle to see how this mon is dif than blastoise if it requires the same 2 steels (similar to vap/mantine in stoises case) and pressures without set up.

 

[Stories]

Gonna be a drone here and repeat the sentiment of the above 2 posts; Indeedee IS beatable, but its effects in the builder are incredibly heavy. Even some of the bulkiest special walls in the entire game such as Vaporeon or Sylveon are easily 2HKO'd by Choice Specs Indeedee, or find themselves complete fodder to Calm Mind sets. Obviously Dark-types such as Guzzlord and Scrafty can take Explanding Force or Mystical Fire but they're nearly OHKO'd by Non-choiced Dazzling Gleam, while Specs cleanly KO's from full. Playing these dangerous 50/50's where if you lose something faints and if you win you only delay the inevitable feels akin to the 50/50's Rotom-Mow can force but at least Rotom-Mow provides a ton of utility to the tier. That's not to say Indeedee only exists as a breaker and nothing else. Having a viable Healing Wish user actually creates new routes for creating offense teams which have struggled to even exist up until recently. While Finch says nothing quite compared to Indeedee's broken-ness (if that's a word) I think it's actually incredibly troll that Silvally-Ground still roams free in this tier despite an attempted suspect test on it a few months ago. Indeedee may FORCE specific checks on a team but at least those checks exist in the first place while Silvally-G's answers are complete U-Turn fodder or lose to some random tech/coverage move. Would be nice to see an Indeedee test nearing the halfway point of SCL at the latest for the sake of the tournament as it doesn't leave much room for creativity in terms of defensive answers while many other Pokemon have some niche bs that they randomly lose to like Mowtom losing to Togedemaru or Vileplume losing to Drampa, Indeedee just explodes everything in its path, even easily 3HKO-ing sdef invested Steel-types.

EDIT:

1 criticism I have is

i struggle to see how this mon is dif than blastoise if it requires the same 2 steels (similar to vap/mantine in stoises case) and pressures without set up.

Blastoise had essentially 0 offensive Counterplay and was only able to be answered defensively, Indeedee is kind of the opposite I feel, where its constantly forced out at the threat of a U-Turn and folds to a lot of neutral physical attacks, but once it hits the field safely and clicks the right move it literally just gets a Pokemon and also has the speed and special bulk that sets it apart from similar nukes like exploud etc

 

[roxie]

Machamp and Sirfetch'd departing the tier allow other wallbreakers to shine (namely Guzzlord). Guzzlord is a good pick right now as its a nice midground for Vileplume and Indeedee-F. Flamethrower to hit Vileplume and Escavalier and Knock Off to force progress on Mudsdale and Stakataka causes mixed sets to be more in consideration over the general Choice Band/Specs + Defensive(idt people even run this anymore lol) sets.



Ever since the Goodra into Dragalge ban, Vileplume really has been punishing these fat Wish balances with Vaporeon and Sylveon. I never considered Vaporeon or anything broken (if anything, hella overrated and passive), but with Growth Vileplume being so good right now, I find it hard to run something passive like that now. Quite similar to CB Snorlax becoming the standard alongside (or potentially more significant) than Curse because you aren't about to Curse up and win against a Vileplume lmao. I think if you build something like Stakataka / Sylveon / Rotom-C / Silvally-G / Passimian, it won't really work. It also feels a little forced to run more offensive-based Talonflame sets (Swords Dance) or just Flamethrower, so you aren't hard losing to Strength Sap on certain builds, but I'm interested in seeing how the metagame adapts around Vileplume. This guy has some positives in the builder, like being a midground itself to the controversial Silvally-Ground + Rotom-C and actually being able to shut down fat/passive Wish builds.

 

[iLiekMudkipz_]

Sorry for one-liner, but where is the NU snake draft general discussion? I feel like that thread shouldve been made by now

 

[Rabia]

Sorry for one-liner, but where is the NU snake draft general discussion? I feel like that thread shouldve been made by now

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/simple-questions-simple-answers.3659528/ this would've been the better thread to ask in for future reference

If you mean for the upcoming subforum tour, it'll go up once player signups start I imagine.

 

[Stories]

I really should wait for the inevitable Indeedee-F NP thread but I have nothing better to do right now.

Indeedee-F has had a grip on the metagame for a decent while now, accentuated by the departure of Bronzong and rise in Poison-types such as Weezing, Garbodor, and the infamous Vileplume that have occurred for various reasons. While Indeedee-F itself has a solid roster of checks, it lacks any true counters long-term, and team lacking multiple checks simply gets shredded depending on Indeedee-F's set.

Indeedee-F's presence in the builder:
It is quite apparent looking at SCL games that Indeedee-F demands a lot in order to be safe from it, with nearly every balance-oriented team boasting at least two of the three of a Steel-type, a Dark-type, and a general Special tank or unorthodox Psychic resistance. I perused the SCL replay thread randomly, just looking for any balance-oriented teams. It is worth noting that these are just my observations and say nothing of the featured players' opinions on the Pokemon or the tier.

Kushalos vs OnArceus, Week 1: Togedemaru, Guzzlord, and Articuno-Galar vs Stunfisk-Galar, Persian-Alola, and Vaporeon.

GXE vs Gilbert arenas, Week 2: Silvally-Steel, Vaporeon, and Articuno-Galar vs Stakataka, Mantine, and one's own Indeedee-F

Aim vs Xiri, Week 3: Copperajah and Scrafty vs Copperajah, Guzzlord, and Claydol

A pretty huge outlier here if you've played or watched NU since before SCL is a surprising influx in Articuno-Galar, which also notably checks Vileplume and provides a powerful Future Sight for the newly adjusted Dark-types finding their footing again after Machamp and Sirfetch'd being banned. Articuno-Galar's perfect combination of a higher speed tier, Psychic resistance, exploiting of Mystical Fire via Competitive, reliable recovery, and U-Turn make it a fantastic Indeedee-F check, but is this an unhealthy development? It's no surprise that the quality of teams for SCL will make those of something smaller like NUPL pale in comparison, ensuring the upmost safety against the biggest threats in the tier with much more on the line, so lets compare the usage statistics of common Indeedee-F checks there as well as Indeedee-F's usage and winrate itself.

TLDR: It's hard to say if Indeedee-F is "warping" if the influx of Pokemon that beat it are also good against other staples of the metagame.

Steel-types:

​

I should mention the sample sizes are greatly different so take this with a grain of salt.

Silvally-Steel usage is a bit difficult to quantify without manually analyzing every single replay which I don't care to do! The development of the SD RestTalk set has made it a lot more reliable of an Indeedee-F check as it doesn't rely on Wish passing to stay healthy.

Stakataka jumping from #8 to #3 shows that its definitely cemented itself as the best Steel-type in the tier, and its neutrality to Mystical Fire goes a long way and Stakataka is quite amazing into a majority of the metagame regardless of Indeedee-F.

Stunfisk-Galar jumping all the way past Copperajah and Escavalier is where we start to raise eyebrows. This Pokemon has been a meme for so long its quite hard to admit that its partially holding the tier together. Stunfisk-G's role compression and MU into Indeedee-F make it hard to pass up, as its also the only good Pokemon that gives Rotom-Mow any trouble at all (insanely broken Pokemon).

Escavalier dropping so hard is difficult to believe, but when such a brutally powerful Psychic-type always packs Fire coverage, it's quite hard to justify the Steel-type that lacks Defog, Stealth Rock, and speed.

Dark-types

​

Dark-types are pretty much impossible to compare fairly here; Machamp and Sirfetch'd left the currently two most dominant Dark-types borderline unviable, meanwhile they're now basically top 10 Pokemon. Obviously they'd be better with the Fighters banned but this usage is a lot lmao. We're also seeing a lot of more niche Dark-types, although that's just player preference from CF and Etern.

Sceptile, the final straw:

Sceptile is broken right now. I'm not willing to argue that. It's a stupid easy setup sweeper and all its checks lose to Indeedee-F which enables it by setting Terrain for Psychic Seed. Sceptile needs these seeds to be as good as it is, and the other terrain setters are like.. bad in ZU lol. Banning Indeedee-F nerfs Sceptile super hard, making this a double win for freeing up the builder and the tier.

Sceptile winning every game ever:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8nu-657029
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8nu-655767
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8nu-657482

I had more to say but I will edit in later I'm tired now gn

 

[iLiekMudkipz_]

My personal opinion on the tier heading into NU Snake, starting from the top of the VR


Rotom-Mow is slightly overbearing in my opinion. Not so much that it neccesitates a ban, but that you need at least 1 check to make teams succeed. The bulk combined with its excellent stats make it so that if you don't account for it, you will get swept. This is the sole reason I even thought of making a team with CM galarian articuno.


Honestly, deserves to be S tier. If you let this thing Nasty Plot, you will be swept unless you have a Steel type. I don't understand why you'd run overheat when you can run a better move like Protect or Substitute, but nonetheless, still an S tier mon that will sweep you.


Honestly, it doesnt feel as broken as people say it is IMO, but yeah, I wouldn't mind if this thing got banned. I don't know what else to say here, im moving on.


I do not understand it's current set. With the prominence of mons like Rotom-M and Stakataka, why one would choose to run the bulky utility set is beyond me. Specifically in the case of Rotom-C, a more offensive set would make sense, as Rotom-M does not like wallbreakers with super effective coverage.

the set

3 Atks + Defog (Talonflame) @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- U-turn
- Defog

Wait, sand teams are still somewhat viable in this meta?

small
WHO THE HELL USES THIS. Its literally outclassed in all counts. Scarf attacker? Rotom-C outclasses it. Spinblocker? Outclassed by Dhelmise. Band attacker? Outclassed by lord knows how many mons. Don't use this.

Might add more later tbh

 

[Lucario]

Rotom-Mow is slightly overbearing in my opinion. Not so much that it neccesitates a ban, but that you need at least 1 check to make teams succeed. The bulk combined with its excellent stats make it so that if you don't account for it, you will get swept. This is the sole reason I even thought of making a team with CM galarian articuno.

Mowtom isn't as overbearing as it once was, but it can still be a pain. However, there are a lot of natural checks to this, such as AV Copper, Staka, Sylveon, Vileplume, Guzz, and every Pokemon who runs Protect. It's easily exploitable, though I see where you're coming from.

Honestly, deserves to be S tier. If you let this thing Nasty Plot, you will be swept unless you have a Steel type. I don't understand why you'd run overheat when you can run a better move like Protect or Substitute, but nonetheless, still an S tier mon that will sweep you.

There is a VR thread where you can post noms to. "You will be swept if you don't have a Steel-type" did you forget that Salazzle is Fire/Poison? The only Steel that doesn't auto-lose vs it is Staka. However, you aren't wrong in saying it can sweep easily. Vaporeon, Mantine, and Gastrodon are the main checks to it while you can easily revenge it with anything faster (Scarf Indeedee/Pass, Inteleon, Aero, even Talonflame). It also loses to Diancie and Aero which is funny.

I do not understand it's current set. With the prominence of mons like Rotom-M and Stakataka, why one would choose to run the bulky utility set is beyond me. Specifically in the case of Rotom-C, a more offensive set would make sense, as Rotom-M does not like wallbreakers with super effective coverage.

The defensive/utility set is used to punish physical threats that don't want to be burned (Tauros, Pass, Gvally, Croak, Viriz, etc). Defog is a wasted moveslot on it, but ig it works. Not having Roost at all makes Talonflame a C- rank Pokemon, let alone not using it with 2 recoil moves. Offensive sets do exist, but that is not one of them. You say Rotom-C doesn't like fast wallbreakers, which I agree, but it does like to Volt on them because it runs Scarf 96% of the time.

Re: Gourgeist-Small
If I'm thinking of the right form, it's faster than Silvally-Ground, allowing a possible revenge kill or enabling it to use Wil-o-Wisp. It fills different roles compared to Dhelmise, them having the same typing doesn't mean much. It did get an SCL win, which is good for it.

Overall you have a good message, but you can't convince others to believe you with the points you made, hope this helps.