Announcement np: BDSP OU Suspect Process, Round 4 - Asteroid

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since this metagame is mostly community run isn't there a possibility to instead of just outright banning it. for there to be a way where you can limit it? for instance just banning psychic on latios or banning draco meteors? to make more pokemon able to come in. to make it less strong while still keeping it in a format for people that enjoy latios or for pokemon it keeps in check even if its just less checking. if you remove psychic clef becomes another option to deal with latios. remove draco meteor and dragon pulse although weaker still allows it to deal with garchomp while also letting more things switch in reliatively unscathed from a big nuke. i know that isnt really how things are usually done but i just want to put it out there.
In general Complex Bans where you only ban one aspect of the Pokemon are not favored. If you can make a complex ban argument for Latios such as no Draco, then why not allow Manaphy but no Tail Glow, or Gengar but no Shadow Ball? This is how you get things like Mewtwo is allowed in OU but you can only run Physical moves.
 
since this metagame is mostly community run isn't there a possibility to instead of just outright banning it. for there to be a way where you can limit it? for instance just banning psychic on latios or banning draco meteors? to make more pokemon able to come in. to make it less strong while still keeping it in a format for people that enjoy latios or for pokemon it keeps in check even if its just less checking. if you remove psychic clef becomes another option to deal with latios. remove draco meteor and dragon pulse although weaker still allows it to deal with garchomp while also letting more things switch in reliatively unscathed from a big nuke. i know that isnt really how things are usually done but i just want to put it out there.
Assuming hell freezes over and complex bans are no longer taboo, I don't think Latios would be anywhere near the first mon to get considered for one because nothing about it is broken in a particular way that sticks out but is instead just... the combination of a lot of traits that it is (like how it doesn't have much business being so fast for how good its offenses and movepool is). When I think of complex bans I think of like... speed boost or gorilla tactics not banning an overtuned mon from its STAB, I think that's just a little ridiculous. Maybe off topic but yeah.
 
In general Complex Bans where you only ban one aspect of the Pokemon are not favored. If you can make a complex ban argument for Latios such as no Draco, then why not allow Manaphy but no Tail Glow, or Gengar but no Shadow Ball? This is how you get things like Mewtwo is allowed in OU but you can only run Physical moves.
i am all for that, tbh i like it, it allows people to use their favorite mons while still allowing certain pieces to be in game because now there aren't any ghost types in ou, as for manaphy yea tail glow was the only real reason it was broken. hydration rest is nice but its nothing you cannot deal with. id personally prefer this type of dealing with meta's
 

BT89

go on, take everything
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i am all for that, tbh i like it, it allows people to use their favorite mons while still allowing certain pieces to be in game because now there aren't any ghost types in ou, as for manaphy yea tail glow was the only real reason it was broken. hydration rest is nice but its nothing you cannot deal with. id personally prefer this type of dealing with meta's
Competitive Pokemon is not about favorites though. If something is broken and unhealthy for the tier, why not just ban it? There is no reason to ban specific things when the Pokemon that it is on is generally broken. The kind of tiering action your suggesting sets a horrid precedent that is, for the most part, unnecessarily complex and annoying for simulator developers to implement. There is a reason that complex bands are avoided in almost all scenarios - they just don’t provide enough of a tangible benefit to the metagame and often just make things harder than they need to be.
 
Competitive Pokemon is not about favorites though. If something is broken and unhealthy for the tier, why not just ban it? There is no reason to ban specific things when the Pokemon that it is on is generally broken. The kind of tiering action your suggesting sets a horrid precedent that is, for the most part, unnecessarily complex and annoying for simulator developers to implement. There is a reason that complex bands are avoided in almost all scenarios - they just don’t provide enough of a tangible benefit to the metagame and often just make things harder than they need to be.
well a favorite mon just helps, its nothing major but as for the broken part and just banning it well it all comes down to the fact that if you ban a mon something will replace it and eventually people will complain about that if its latios now weavile next week garchomp the week after and alakazam after that. nerfing it allows it to remain scaling its powerback without leaving a major power vacuum drastically changing a format, for all we know latios is keeping some demons in the dark that could pop up if banned, not saying its so but as for your comment as to the banlist being a burden on developers sure i can get behind that.
its just that i wholeheartedly believe that removing the strongest anything doesn't just fix anything because the powervacuum will make something take its place. there will always be a next big mon that the meta will revolve around.
 
well a favorite mon just helps, its nothing major but as for the broken part and just banning it well it all comes down to the fact that if you ban a mon something will replace it and eventually people will complain about that if its latios now weavile next week garchomp the week after and alakazam after that. nerfing it allows it to remain scaling its powerback without leaving a major power vacuum drastically changing a format, for all we know latios is keeping some demons in the dark that could pop up if banned, not saying its so but as for your comment as to the banlist being a burden on developers sure i can get behind that.
its just that i wholeheartedly believe that removing the strongest anything doesn't just fix anything because the powervacuum will make something take its place. there will always be a next big mon that the meta will revolve around.
Theorycrafting isn't really the point of a suspect test. Furthermore, a meta can revolve an entire mon but not be unhealthy (GSC's most straight up "unhealthy" mon isn't even the behemoth Snorlax, it's probably Jynx lol) If a mon became oppressive after Latios was banned, that mon could be banned too, but every mon is different and a big issue with Latios is how much it enables other offensive threats to swoop in and feed off of teams already under strain from being prepped for Latios. I simply think BDSP has too many wallbreakers and offensive threats for its own good right now with Latios as the prime offender, but that's been talked about in different comments.

It's not a very compelling argument to try and justify a not ban by saying that something else will just take its place not just because of the reasons I've said, but also because you literally cannot prove that as there is not a BDSP without Latios right now lmao.

Let's try and keep things pertinent to the now and not the "what if"
 
Competitive Pokemon is not about favorites though. If something is broken and unhealthy for the tier, why not just ban it? There is no reason to ban specific things when the Pokemon that it is on is generally broken. The kind of tiering action your suggesting sets a horrid precedent that is, for the most part, unnecessarily complex and annoying for simulator developers to implement. There is a reason that complex bands are avoided in almost all scenarios - they just don’t provide enough of a tangible benefit to the metagame and often just make things harder than they need to be.
only time i'll agree w bt :pensive:

2 lazy to do the suspect, but imo, this mon should be banned. i havent read many of the previous arguments, but i'll say my own. The pokemon is hella unhealthy. The pokemon itself might not be completely busted, but like when u take cores such as zone + latios (old) and fernape + latios (noice), the pokemon comes to a point where it puts insane pressure. The support it gets enables it to do huge amount of breaking and the way it shifts how other tiers r played is just weird (what i mean by that is like, u gotta hella double n predict this mon or it'll do HUGE damage yk). i saw the argument of mamoswine???? bro u are dyingggg to every other pokemon on the team. some mons aint broken by themselevs, its whatever they paired w is what sometimes makes them broken imo. just ban it.

it prolly looks like a 10 yo wrote this cuz im lazy >.<
 

KaenSoul

FuegoAlma
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I changed my mind near the end, i still dont think Latios itself was the problem with the tier but should be a step forward at reducing the gap in the powerlevel between the top 5 mons and the rest of the game, as i believe the best is to keep going until the remaining "problematic" mons get at least a suspect test, after all some of the most problematic mons (zam, weavile) were keeping Latios in check to some degree and as i believe they should go and broken check broken is never a good idea, is better to let Latios go now instead of waiting until it becomes beyond broken after we remove his offensive checks in future suspects.
and home support is totally comming out soon bros, mystical fire latios hype, for the few people still playing ubers
 
Justice won...

Anyway, Latias was already amazing before but will probably be even better. Scizor is happy that it's not as pressured into running spdef and chomp gets even better. Weavile lost one of its prey but probably won't mind it in the long run.

What are other mons that could benefit from Latios' ban? Any potential niche picks being held back? Also yeah if home does end up happening soon the tier is gonna look very different anyway
 
Ahh what a nice piece of news. Now where is that crab rave gif when I want it.

I have a feeling the tier will change a lot now. Now more restrictive defensive cores. I'm interested to see what people come up with. I've got a few ideas I wanna test soon myself.

Also yeah if home does end up happening soon the tier is gonna look very different anyway
I'm also curious about this. I've been hearing whispers about it lately but has there been anything to suggest it is coming soon?
 
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