Resource National Dex Viability Rankings

Hey y'all, been thinking abt a few mons and their place in the current meta and how my vision is different from the current vr, so here I am making my first nom post.

:scizor-mega: to B
Starting off with prob a controversial one, but the more I think abt this mon the more I realize that its just bad. First of all I wanna talk abt its moves, bp and sd are both necessary, roost too outside of some ho teams so the last slot is between turn, cc, tomb and koff. Turn lets it act as a very good bulky pivot and has been the standard for forever, but it leaves sciz walled by ghold, tran, pex, volc, pelli, yard, zap, glisc and skarm so it can't really afford to run it, also means that any mon under psyterrain forces sciz out. CC lets it kill tran and ferro at +2, def a good trait but it also presents a problem w/ evs that i'll talk abt later, also technically the best move to hit skarm but not rly ur still walled, also turns lele into a hard counter and if u run defense u can beat gambit which is very cool. Tomb hits ghold and pex, needs alot of offensive investment to actually beat pex tho and again dosen't help with any other mon except for technically gambit. Koff hits ghold harder and can punish volc, torn, pex and bulky zap by taking away their boots and remove helmets from lando, skarm and some ferro. Now onto the ev problem, tldr this mon wants investment in every one of its stats, but it varies depending on its 4th, turn obviously wants to be slower and bulkier, cc wants alot of speed for tran, some attack for ferro and ideally some defense for gambit, tomb needs alot of speed for tran and attack for pex, koff dosen't benefit as much from not being forced to run speed as turn so u prob want some speed. Additionally sciz wants alot of defensive investment, physdef for gambit, kart, mixed val, non fire diancie, dnite and weav, also lele to an extent, and wants spdef to check lele, val, non fire diancie and also enjoys being able to switch into pult's draco and ghold's mir, although it can't counter either alone bc no ghost resist. Couple more things abt this mon is that it dies the second it gets burnt, but that's nothing new, with the newly limited roost pp it really really really hates hazards, dosen't help that it's so easy to get them up in this meta, also dosen't help how tough steel type competition is when the likes of gambit and ghold are ruling the tier.

:zapdos: to A-
Echoing the post above, this mon shits on teams that rely on tusk and non spdef lando as their electric immune, has a very free entry point against torn and z hurricane can break past mons like ferro that try to check it, tran just gets volt switched on for 30% so it can only switch in a couple of times, and that's ignoring hazards. Can also work as a lop, kart, torn and zama check even without alot of defensive investment as it can't get ohko'd and threatens static para.

:tapu-koko: to A+
Largely similar to zap, trades alot of defensive utility and static for way higher speed, rocks neutrality and cm, in particular cm fairium sets set up on torn, rotom and ironically zapdos and just straight up beat alot of teams. Ferro isn't hard to wear down and clod gets trapped very easily.

:medicham-mega: to A-
Not rlly sure why this ever dropped, still kills everything and trailblaze allows it to boost on the many sacs this mon forces. Thief is great for hitting ghold which otherwise walls medi, ice punch is still a good option for ohkoing lando, chomp and glisc, additionally kills pult and torn without having to risk zen miss, bp is useful on some teams to snipe diancie, and fake out is still decent if you really need the extra priority. Having more 3rd and 4th move options means it can work very well in teams with lele

:mandibuzz: to C/B-
Been messing around with this mon a bit lately, it's not that good but it has a couple good traits that give it a small but noteworthy niche. First off it's a pult check, but it differentiates itself from gambit and the like in the fact that it also has uturn, sure you could use av torn but its av torn so no boots. Roost and koff are also very nice, and foul play + sucker resist means it can trade against boosted kingambit.

:hatterene: to B+
Not much to say, psyspam has been on the rise and this mon compliments those teams perfectly, also has a place in certain sun teams that don't want to run multiple spinners/foggers.
 
It's really hot atm where I'm at and I need something to distract from that so quick noms is go

645-t.png A+ -> S-
What can be said? It's been slowly creeping back to the top and doing what it's always done. Invaluable role compression and flexibility/versatility, incredibly splashable and the new movepool additions were nothing but kind for it. Technically NP hasn't really been used, but Taunt is just one more amazing tool in its kit, for its suicide lead set and I've seen it used to stuff slower mons from setting up, setting hazadfs or recovering. Good rocker, strong z move user and knocks a lot of mons pretty reliably. Mon really does just about anything you'd want. It's too good and reliable and deserves S-.

145.png B+ -> A-
Still should raise higher. The great and practical defensive typing is appreciable for something so offensively threatening and boy is if threatening. LBN mentioned it already, but Flyinium Z sets are scary af and underutilized. There aren't a lot of special walls who can comfortably soak up hits from this mon given Blissey is nowhere to be seen, and Glowking/Ting-Lu are rare. It's real good.

472.png
B -> B+
This mon is just nuts right now. Seriously if anyone is unsure of it, just go watch NDWC replays of it and see it in action. It's been doing very well and it isn't really surprising honestly. Amazing fat wincon whose resilience lets it come in many times during a game and it just flattens bulky teams. If not running SD it's still a solid defogger too and keeps rocks off quite nicely.

887.pngS- -> A+
Don't get me wrong, this mon is still very threatening and a must account for in the builder... It's just that accounting for it has become quite naturally easy given how common and splashable Kingambit is. It to mention Garganacl, Clefable and Tera fairy mons. Priority also holds it back more than before. Very threatening mon, but it's held in check enough atm and isn't as splashable as TornT or even LandoT.
 
I think Char-Y should be moved to A- from B+. Charizard has insane wallbreaking power, and only has a few pokemon capable of countering it, such as tera grass heatran. Alot of its enemys get blown away by solar beam, tyranitar gets OHKOED by focus blast after minimal chip, if it has fire blast it can 2HKO clodsire, and it can also help your team against the influx of rain teams ever since home was released. It even has reliable recovery with roost and isnt as frail as most wallbreakers in the tier- such as dragapult or valiant. The reason I don't think it deserves to be higher is because of its two glaring weaknesses: a sad base 100 speed and stealth rock weakness. The first isnt that bad since most pokemon it wants to break are slower, or dont have enough speed to outspeed and KO it in the first place. Mons like Lando-T, great tusk, or tapu lele can't outspeed without scarf. The second weakness can be stopped by hazard support from other team members.
TLDR: Charizard-mega-Y should be moved higher since its powerful, excells at what it does, but has weaknesses to hold it back.
Some calcs:
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar-Mega in Sand: 348-412 (86.1 - 101.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire in Sun: 226-267 (48.8 - 57.6%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 120+ SpD Assault Vest Slowking-Galar in Sun: 157-186 (39.8 - 47.2%) -- 43.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash: 288-340 (94.7 - 111.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
 

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LBN

is a Top Tiering Contributor Alumnus
UPL Champion
Alright, since Home has dropped we got a ton of new toys, some new hits and some new woke takes will be brought to attention, firstly, if a hisiun mon is not mentioned by me i think that shit is UR, so no avalugg mention, no wyrdeer etc is a UR candidate.

-> A-
You ever see a fall off quite like this? Truthfully speaking i think this mon struggles to ever achieve the type of things we expect from it. Originally the CB set was lauded among the scariest breakers and now that set feels harder and harder to pull off as time goes on. With stuff like Gliscor, Cresselia, Mew, fat balances with Pex Skarm Fairy Garg and more while offensives are more focused on things like iron valiant koko for HO, this thing doesn't really instill much confidence when it comes to CB. Z moves sets are among the best in my eyes but are heavily telegraphed alongside the 4MSS it has of mandatory CC Howl and then 2 of Ice Fang, Wild Charge, Crunch, and Iron Head. All of which are covering crucial targets you miss out on like Toxapex, Slowbro, Gholdengo, Skeledirge, Gliscor, Landorus-T and Clefable. The last set worth mentioning is Ironpress which, while capable of winning lategames for free, also has 5v6 matchups vs anybody with a skeledirge, NP gholdengo without bad crunch luck, Toxapex, etc. Overall these hinderaces doesn't spell an A+ rank mon out to me, and i think the meta has grown harsher for it.

-> B+
A generally solid enough pokemon, it's power is on par and it's stats are generally just enough in any scenario for taking any 1 hit and outspeeding atleast 1 mon on a team. Setting spikes on an attack as strong as Ceaseless Edge from this thing is a huge thing to have, but i find it a little oversold. I think it has room for innovation, Choice Scarf sounds fun and z moves also bring new flavor for it. Other sets im not high on include suicide lead Samurott, Ceaseless edge will miss more often than you are being allowed 2 layers just use glimmora if you want a dogshit lead.

-> B-
Generally strong wallbreaker with some defensive utility with it's flying resist. Strong, kill shit but slightly annoyed by Lando-T, Great tusk etc. Overall I think this is another case of potential Z move blessing, but it's hazards vulnerability and Espeed not being a great fit on it. I think Agility sets have merit, aswell as boots / CB.

-> B+
Phenomenal user of Rain, blows Floatzel out of the water with it's superior bulk and potential for Z-Ghost fun. Generally i find Manaphy the better user of Z moves on rain, invalidating most stall as a counter to rain is too huge to pass up, but CB or Splash plate sets play very nicely on it. Not much to say, plays like a slower but more reckless enabling Barraskewda.

-> UR
Barraskewda and Basculegion have stolen all reason to use this thing. Basculegion is just better in every conceivable way besides speed but your swift swimming so the bulk is more useful.

-> A
Contrary sets suck, but I think Special sets with Specs / Boots 3A agility are very dangerous into a good MU. Checks are roughly the same as Valiants so it suffers from success overlap, namely Venusaur Toxapex Clod etc with some extras like Gholdengo or Skeledirge on a good day, but Moonblast Earth Power Mystical Fire + Imagination (Probably Psychic) is perfect coverage anyways so you can lean on tera for larger reach if you desire. Speed is competent jumping Garchomp. Don't use Springtide Storm just use moonblast. Very threatening and while i find Valiant better overall, still a solid mon with it's own merit.

-> NDOU
Free Him. B+ rank fr

-> UR
I guess suicide lead Stone Axe is enough to see value in suicide lead shit, but unfortunately Landorus-T has taunt so frankly idc, i'm using him instead. I wouldn't have mentioned it but I know some people expect this thing to get ranked but yea no this thing isn't good and nor is fury cutter.

-> A-
+1 252 Atk Hustle Lilligant-Hisui All-Out Pummeling (190 BP) vs. 104 HP / 0 Def Zapdos: 343-404 (98.8 - 116.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
Me Thinks This Mon Is Good. Stupid strong, consistent setup potential with Sleep Powder and soft checks certain Kingambits, alongside Tyranitars. Ice spinner is an option but this pokemon truly doesn't need it and the value sleep powder gives can't be understated. Who doesn't love free setu- oh it missed nvm goodbye flower
 

sealoo

PaulGod
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Moderator
after putting in enough hours on the natdex ou ladder these past 2 weeks to kill a 1700s victorian child, here are some vr takes. not gonna try to overlap with other posts, but i think almost all of the takes in them are agreeable. most of these will be rises jsyk

:lopunny-mega: A+ -> S-
mlop disrespectful is absurd, picks off a ton of the weak offense teams youll see everywhere and can still provide value into thud mus (fat/bal stuff) with pivoting potential. it gets annoying by zapdos but with Limber and good building it aint that deep, very consistent in nearly every mu youll encounter and you cant convince me pult/torn are clearly above it

:garchomp: A -> A-
i wanna preface by saying i think tankchomp is p good, being able to barf up rocks and a spike while providing huge chip onto threats for the offensive builds it slots on is awesome. it does this role, but imo to a A- level only. ppl stopped using tera fire 3a loaded dice for some reason but that set is also decent. dont bother with sd z it blows LOL

:iron-valiant: A -> A+
used to be a valiant hater, but throughout the lt cycle so far i realized that this thing is the peak offensive weapon made in a lab. specs is the best set, esp when abusing terrain, and tera fairy is a clicking man's best friend. has approximately 10,000 other sets u could use (booster cm tera elec, sd, scarf, band, ebelt) as well as being a very sturdy revenge killing option to gambit. credit to setset77 for opening my eyes on ival

:kartana: B+ -> A-
used a lot of scarf kart throughout the cycle, and the feeling of clicking tera grass leaf blade endgame is unbeatable. awesome poke and forces opponent to play 4D Chess to maintain a resist to one of its 4 moves

:Toxapex: A- -> A+
pex is goat and checks a billion things and is a nice scout button into another billion things. less people should use it because its frankly annoying

:Zapdos: B+ -> A
maybe i played too much ladder, but this thing has been nothing short of awesome for me. life of a zapdos user is simple as follows:
1. roost until static proc

2. volt switch out
3. if they go ground, hurricane it until it dies
4. repeat
and i find solace in the playstyle

:Dragonite: A- -> B+
ddnite does its thing i guess, altho its kinda whatever nowadays. ive seen Curse popping up and its pretty good, but still doesnt warrant a A- placement

:Skarmory: B -> B+
cannot count how many times skarmory has saved my ass from 1. SD Kingambit and 2. CB Rilla in the second cycle alone. its also pretty good in real games but this mon will be ur best friend if you load up the good ol ladder

:Sneasler: -> A-
truth be told i think the pivot sets r kinda mid. Unburden on the other hand is crazy good, its base tox immunity provides rly favorable 50/50s where if you get a free SD up the game will often end on the spot. screens koko is ur best friend STOP pairing it with rillaboom i beg
 
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:tapu-lele: A+ —> A

I feel like over this gen people have learned hor to not instantly lose to lele. Tera psychic with scarf/specs is gonna get 1 kill max against any kingambit team (aka every team). Tera fairy and Z sets are pretty good, but I reallyd don’t think it’s justified putting this in A+.

:toxapex: A- —> A

Toxapex is, shockingly, still really good. Basically every fat team I’ve seen ever runs this, as do a significant amount of balance and BO. One of the best rain checks, messes with a million different things, t spikes is funny if you can fit it.
 
:sv/dondozo: :sv/dondozo: :sv/dondozo:
Dondozo @ Leftovers
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
Careful Nature
- Curse
- Liquidation
- Rest
- Protect

DONDOZO UR ---->>>>>>>> C
Ok first off do NOT use tera grass that is a garbage tera type either go dragon if ur mixdef or fairy if ur physdef. + the dozo in my builder is spdef but physdef is also usable to deal with shit like gambit better.
Dondozo has defeated the unviable allegations. Being a fat unaware that focuses more on the physical side is really useful and helps differentiate it from Clodsire, as it means it can actually do very well into offense teams. Being mixed also means it has a generally wider matchup spread, which is useful when fat teams want their own winconditions as well as dealing with all the prominent threats. Alternative, max physdef does well into really difficult-to-check threats like Kingambit, Kartana, and Mega Medicham. With mixed bulk investment, it can also be somewhat irritating to deal with, especially if such teams forgo defensive backbones such as Ferrothorn and Rotom-W. Although it does struggle into Tapu Koko's Electric Terrain, the combination of its raw bulk + protect for passive longevity means it often is good enough to at least go 1 for 1 with an annoying setup threat. Although the matchup against non-offense teams is significantly worse, Dondozo can at the least pivot and stave off a threat on BO and Balance teams such as Great Tusk and Heatran, as well as stonewalling SD Gliscor, an otherwise nightmarish matchup for fat teams to overcome. I spammed the shit out of Dondozo in cycle 1 of NDLT and it was instrumental in securing wins against all the offense running around on ladder.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-1879544737
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-1880127908
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-1880230374



Also:
:sv/scream-tail:
Scream Tail @ Leftovers
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 72 SpD / 184 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Encore
- Wish
- Protect
- Dazzling Gleam
Scream Tail UR -> C
Scream Tail is a interesting niche defensive option that withstands and proceeds to annoy the shit out of common threats, alleviating pressure for the rest of its team by also passing them wishes. These threats include: most fairies (lele, enamorous, diancie), most fighters (zamazenta, great tusk, Mega Medicham), the latter being incredibly difficult to switch into otherwise, as well as being a general good pivot into a lot of attacks with Protect. Encore is of course a blessing for defensive teams, giving them a way to disrupt the likes of Garganacl, SD Urshifu, and Kingambit without being placed massively on the backfoot. Although its passivity can be annoying at times against the likes of Gholdengo and Heatran, this can be remedied with solid team support, especially since the Pokemon tasked to check the aforementioned threats can get blessed with free wishes, making the switch much safer.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-1876191410-3fzy6oow48boldfnpvdvzvapx5xrtyzpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-1874648999-yh0qj6zalzc21xmivnimplmemmvuf0lpw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-1872559221-gocqoxxjy4d4awjp8iwgmvy15dbn7s8pw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-1881603087 (ik this replay doesnt rly show it in practise but u can see how peap basically cant do anything bc scream tail sits on medi, tusk, and dnite)

EDIT. WHY AM I BEING HAHA'D.
 
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Been a while. Enjoying the new additions from HOME and experimenting with options and I have some thoughts in general.

samurott-hisui.png -> B+
While I love this thing in standard SV, I wasn't sure if it'd be able to keep up in Natdex but playing around it seems to do well enough. Spikes are strong, setting spikes and doing decent chip is even better. Generally just good enough in stats and typing, and a solid movepool gives it some flexibility for how it's used. I think it's got some interesting options for sets beyond just stuff like four attacks or scarf and it'll be interesting to see what comes out of it.

basculegion.png -> B+
Starting with a modest ranking for now but boy this thing sure did kick rain back up. The better bulk and typing and options for item flexibility is nice. I can definitely see this getting better with more experimenting too but this feels right for now (Also salty BasculegionF lost CM in SV).

lilligant-hisui.png-> A-/A
Either one is fine, I think Hustle can hold it back from A but this thing is pretty terrifying on a good day. Strong AF and with such a fantastic set up move in Victory Dance, and pretty great post boost speed. Discussion about Ice Spinner vs Sleep Powder is definitely there, though I think slightly leaning towards Powder just because it scares would be absorbers like Ferro and Katana.

enamorus.png
-> A
I like to think of this as a more aggressive Iron Valiant in that its special breaking power is quite a good deal higher, making its specs sets very threatening. Good typing and decent speed, plus the option for stuff like CM if you want and great coverage in fairy/ground/fire... Less versatile than Valiant is but still very scary in its own right.

sneasler.png-> A-/A
If you hate Hawlucha you'll really hate this piece of shit. Very threatening sweeper that, at least from my experience, especially abuses Tera for slashing would be checks/counters (I've seen a lot of Tera ground for Gholdengo and Toxapex). Dunno what the general consensus is on Dire Claw vs Gunk Shot, but it's still very annoying to run into it and have defensive checks abruptly slept.

iron-valiant.png
A -> A+
I think this thing is one of the most versatile and threatening offensive pokes in the tier. So many set possibilities, but specs alone backed by ETerrain support is terrifying. Bonus points for Tera fairy specs. Also the many variations on booster energy based sets are fun.

889.png -> A-
I'm with LBN on this one. Yeah eah CB is nutty vs unprepared teams but it feels like now more than ever the tier has at least one or two checks to it on most teams, those checks being good to great mons as is, which limits the threat level of the dog. Zam generally feels more contained and reasonably so at that, limiting what it can do.
 
889_160x160.gif
A-
It's really fast and bulky, but pure fighting is bad typing(defensively) , and it's suuper owned by any team with even the tiniest bit of prep, to the point where most teams have multiple counters to this thing accidentally, it's great for cleaning with a choice item, but Val, Boom, Kingambit, and to a lesser degree tusk+M sciz, can do the same, but provide more utility, or just win cleaner/sooner.
1133.gif
A+
This thing is amazing, you can clean a game up super quickly, punch holes early on with a choice item, lock pokemon into setup moves with encore on booster sets, break stall well with mixed taunt sets, and it's insane at checking kingambit since it lives even +6 5 fallen sucker, even with rocks or a spike up. It's just got a lot of versatility, and a great movepool to boot.
 
I also agree with A+ for Valiant. Swords Dance set is amazing, Specs is amazing, Mixed is amazing, Calm Mind is also amazing. Since Valiant can viably use physical, special or mixed, it's very difficult to prepare for, and with Scarf/Booster Energy it's one of the fastest mons in the tier, often acting as a potent revenge killer if opponent doesn't have priority (it still resists sucker punch at least, helpful against Kingambit)
 
Viability Rankings

Welcome to the first edition of the Generation 9 National Dex Viability Rankings! In this thread, we as a community, overlooked by a unique council, will attempt to rank every viable Pokemon in various ranks. Please be encouraged to post your thoughts on the viability of Pokemon in this thread!

Ranks

Pokemon will be ranked in descending order; there is no divide in viability inbetween ranks. There is no differentiation in offensive and defensive Pokemon. Toxapex may be A+ for its defensive utility, while Hydreigon may be A+ for its capabilities as a wallbreaker.

VR Council

The VR Council is made up of respected and active users in National Dex. They will have the final say on where Pokemon get ranked. Here is the current VR Council:

S Rank

S

:kingambit: Kingambit

S-
:dragapult: Dragapult
:tornadus-therian: Tornadus-Therian


A Rank

A+
:gholdengo: Gholdengo
:heatran: Heatran
:Landorus-Therian: Landorus-Therian
:lopunny-mega: Lopunny-Mega
:tapu lele: Tapu Lele
:zamazenta: Zamazenta

A
:ferrothorn: Ferrothorn
:garchomp: Garchomp
:garganacl: Garganacl
:iron valiant: Iron Valiant
:tapu koko: Tapu Koko

A-
:dragonite: Dragonite
:great tusk:Great Tusk
:rotom-wash: Rotom-Wash
:scizor-mega: Scizor-Mega
:toxapex: Toxapex
:urshifu-rapid-strike: Urshifu-RS
:volcarona: Volcarona


B Rank

B+

:charizard-mega-y:Charizard-Mega-Y
:diancie-mega: Diancie-Mega
:kartana: Kartana
:medicham-mega: Medicham-Mega
:pelipper: Pelipper
:swampert-mega: Swampert-Mega
:weavile: Weavile
:zapdos: Zapdos

B
:barraskewda:Barraskewda
:buzzwole: Buzzwole
:clefable: Clefable
:clodsire:Clodsire
:floatzel: Floatzel
:gastrodon: Gastrodon
:gliscor: Gliscor
:gyarados-mega: Gyarados-Mega
:hawlucha: Hawlucha
:hippowdon: Hippowdon
:iron hands: Iron Hands
:iron moth: Iron Moth
:kyurem: Kyurem
:manaphy: Manaphy
:mawile-mega: Mawile-Mega
:slowbro: Slowbro
:skarmory: Skarmory
:skeledirge: Skeledirge
:tangrowth: Tangrowth
:ting-lu: Ting-Lu
:tyranitar-mega: Tyranitar-Mega
:victini: Victini

B-
:baxcalibur: Baxcalibur
:charizard-mega-x: Charizard-Mega-X
:cinderace: Cinderace
:Corviknight: Corviknight
:glimmora: Glimmora
:greninja: Greninja
:hatterene: Hatterene
:hydreigon: Hydreigon
:rillaboom: Rillaboom
:serperior: Serperior
:tapu fini: Tapu Fini

C Rank

C

:amoonguss: Amoonguss
:arctozolt: Arctozolt
:chansey: Chansey
:cresselia: Cresselia
:excadrill: Excadrill
:garchomp-mega: Garchomp-Mega
:grimmsnarl: Grimmsnarl
:hoopa-unbound: Hoopa-Unbound
:iron jugulis: Iron Jugulis
:kingdra: Kingdra
:latias-mega: Latias-Mega
:latios-mega: Latios-Mega
:magnezone: Magnezone
:mew: Mew
:moltres-galar: Moltres-Galar
:slowking: Slowking
:slowking-galar: Slowking-Galar
:tapu-bulu: Tapu Bulu
:tyranitar: Tyranitar
:venusaur-mega: Venusaur-Mega
:zoroark-hisui: Zoroark-Hisui

Guidelines

There are some guidelines to keep in mind before posting here. We want to foster intelligent discussion, not unfounded arguments. Please keep these things in mind:
  • Posts like "I think X Pokemon should be in Y Rank" will be deleted; make sure to back your opinion with facts and an actual analysis of the metagame.
  • Adding onto the above, I would simply like to point out that, while usage stats may be used to support your argument, they should not be the basis of your argument. Saying something along the lines of "X Pokemon is not used often, so it should drop" or "X Pokemon is used very often, but it isn't ranked very high, it should rise" are not valid arguments.
  • You shouldn't merely state the obvious things either. We know that Galarian Darmanitan has access to a very strong STAB Icicle Crash combined with good coverage options. We are far more interested in knowing what meta trends may favor Galarian Darmanitan.
  • Replays are mandatory to support a nomination if a Pokemon is Unranked.
  • This is not the place for personal attacks. Not everyone agrees on the viability of Pokemon, and that is no reason to attack them. Any posts that do attack users will be swiftly deleted and met with an infraction.
  • This is not the thread to talk about suspect tests. One liners also have no place here. Both will be deleted and may be met with an infraction on repeated offense.
Sneasler fron UR-> A-

Sneasler is far from perfect amongst the large pool of threats amongst the National Dex metagame, and is a mon that is quite overlooked. However, with access to the amazing ability of Unburden, Sneasler can be a devastating threat if pivoted in with the right timing. Often paired with Tapus or Rillaboom, Sneasler has a unique flexibility amongst sets and pairings, with other notable movesets including normal gem fake out and white herb cc. The real kicker here is the versatility and how easy it is to fill a slot of your team with sneasler, as it is a noteworthy choice on weather, voltturn, HO and almost any offensive playstyle.

goofy snease sweep https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-1902157561
 
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Lilligant-Hisui to B+
20230711_174054.jpg
•Since Hisuian Lilligant got released for Scarlet and Violet, I was trying her out in National Dex and after the Tera Suspect Test, it's now time to nominate her for the B+ rank on the viability ranking.

This is the moveset I was using for Hilligant. Her job is to set up at least one Victory Dance and then destroy as many enemies as possible. With her quite solid base speed of 105, she outspeeds common threats like Zapdos, Garchomp, Landorus-Therian, the Charizards, Tapu Lele and Urshifu Rapid Strike and hits them all very well with her great coverage + Hustle. After one set up, Hisuian Lilligant becomes a very powerful set up sweeper.

•These calcs will show her very solid damage output:

+1 252 Atk Hustle Lilligant-Hisui Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 325-384 (115.6 - 136.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252 Atk Hustle Lilligant-Hisui Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 16+ Def Scizor-Mega: 255-300 (74.3 - 87.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252 Atk Hustle Lilligant-Hisui Ice Spinner vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 428-504 (135 - 158.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Hustle Lilligant-Hisui Subzero Slammer (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 360-424 (93.7 - 110.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

•And here are 5 examples of Hisuian Lilligant sweeps:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-1901864492-trfbvq9ls1bmsa6d8veqfw0dp6iihvcpw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-1900088643-tl7ott0jzne5xoi297kw5m4cyv9g5v8pw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-1899277756-sqoipxlu31jfh3kci03f52vmahaoyaupw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-1898777919-ntx316opc0z2jnfed5zm4yn6z2vz4g9pw

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldex-1898661241-941819obq2hn66khn679n5jn0ra6cs1pw

•At last, here is a Video from Jimothy Cool about Hisuian Lilligant, in which he explains his opinion about this Pokemon before HOME got released for Gen9.
Thanks for reading :)
20230709_092734.jpg
 

Nashrock

be happy
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1689132594024.png
-> A/B+
Our lovely bird doesn't seem as good as it used to be now in gen9. It's reliable high speed now seems not that useful anymore as this tier seems to compete less in speed tiers above m-diancie and below pult i'd say. And with tera and all the new mons, it's not as bulky as before. KO/SP from gambit, tera water SS from shifu, tera grass woodhammer from u know who, etc, can all easily 2HKO torn-T, if not OHKO.

1689132883814.png
-> A+
Zap on the other hand is probably the best def bird now. It checks m-lop, shifu, zama, rila, kartana, and bunch of other physical attackers. With tera water it is decent against rain. And its role in rain teams also shows its offensive potential. Its only weakness is the accuracy of hurricane.
 
Tornadus to B+ is absolutely wild. It's a fake fighting resist and you're right that tera has made its somewhat middling bulk more apparent, so probably not S tier right now. However, the metagame has certainly not undergone a shift drastic enough for it to drop all the way from the S ranks to the B ranks. Its speed tier is absolutely still useful, regen is still broken, it's still our best hazard removal, and it's still top 3 in most splashable mons in the tier.

Agree with Zapdos nomination, tho probably just to A-/A instead of A+.
 
Given the severe nerfs to both of Gren's abilities, we opted to unrank it for the time being. Battle bond is now near useless except under very specific conditions given that you lose your buffs as soon as you're forced to switch out which is most likely to happen immediately after you manage to get a KO. Given the plethora of other strong water types in the tier, especially ones that take advantage of rain more easily, there isn't much reason to use this mon. On the other hand, protean nerfs now force you to correctly predict the opponent on your first attack upon switching in to take advantage of the STAB bonus. Protean Gren's coverage outside of ice beam is not particularly spammable and has holes in it even when running 4 attacks, so you would need very careful prediction to make this work. With these nerfs, Gren finds itself relying on nothing but base 103 Sp Att which is beyond underwhelming in the current meta and spread even more thin by mixed attacking protean sets
Why was Ash greninja removed? Seems a bit weird to remove him in National Dex.
 

Kyo

In Limbo
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National Dex Leader
Viability Rankings

Welcome to the first edition of the Generation 9 National Dex Viability Rankings! In this thread, we as a community, overlooked by a unique council, will attempt to rank every viable Pokemon in various ranks. Please be encouraged to post your thoughts on the viability of Pokemon in this thread!

Ranks

Pokemon will be ranked in descending order; there is no divide in viability inbetween ranks. There is no differentiation in offensive and defensive Pokemon. Toxapex may be A+ for its defensive utility, while Hydreigon may be A+ for its capabilities as a wallbreaker.

VR Council

The VR Council is made up of respected and active users in National Dex. They will have the final say on where Pokemon get ranked. Here is the current VR Council:

S Rank

S

:kingambit: Kingambit

S-
:dragapult: Dragapult
:tornadus-therian: Tornadus-Therian


A Rank

A+
:gholdengo: Gholdengo
:heatran: Heatran
:Landorus-Therian: Landorus-Therian
:lopunny-mega: Lopunny-Mega
:tapu lele: Tapu Lele
:zamazenta: Zamazenta

A
:ferrothorn: Ferrothorn
:garchomp: Garchomp
:garganacl: Garganacl
:iron valiant: Iron Valiant
:tapu koko: Tapu Koko

A-
:dragonite: Dragonite
:great tusk:Great Tusk
:rotom-wash: Rotom-Wash
:scizor-mega: Scizor-Mega
:toxapex: Toxapex
:urshifu-rapid-strike: Urshifu-RS
:volcarona: Volcarona


B Rank

B+

:charizard-mega-y:Charizard-Mega-Y
:diancie-mega: Diancie-Mega
:kartana: Kartana
:medicham-mega: Medicham-Mega
:pelipper: Pelipper
:swampert-mega: Swampert-Mega
:weavile: Weavile
:zapdos: Zapdos

B
:barraskewda:Barraskewda
:buzzwole: Buzzwole
:clefable: Clefable
:clodsire:Clodsire
:floatzel: Floatzel
:gastrodon: Gastrodon
:gliscor: Gliscor
:gyarados-mega: Gyarados-Mega
:hawlucha: Hawlucha
:hippowdon: Hippowdon
:iron hands: Iron Hands
:iron moth: Iron Moth
:kyurem: Kyurem
:manaphy: Manaphy
:mawile-mega: Mawile-Mega
:slowbro: Slowbro
:skarmory: Skarmory
:skeledirge: Skeledirge
:tangrowth: Tangrowth
:ting-lu: Ting-Lu
:tyranitar-mega: Tyranitar-Mega
:victini: Victini

B-
:baxcalibur: Baxcalibur
:charizard-mega-x: Charizard-Mega-X
:cinderace: Cinderace
:Corviknight: Corviknight
:glimmora: Glimmora
:greninja: Greninja
:hatterene: Hatterene
:hydreigon: Hydreigon
:rillaboom: Rillaboom
:serperior: Serperior
:tapu fini: Tapu Fini

C Rank

C

:amoonguss: Amoonguss
:arctozolt: Arctozolt
:chansey: Chansey
:cresselia: Cresselia
:excadrill: Excadrill
:garchomp-mega: Garchomp-Mega
:grimmsnarl: Grimmsnarl
:hoopa-unbound: Hoopa-Unbound
:iron jugulis: Iron Jugulis
:kingdra: Kingdra
:latias-mega: Latias-Mega
:latios-mega: Latios-Mega
:magnezone: Magnezone
:mew: Mew
:moltres-galar: Moltres-Galar
:slowking: Slowking
:slowking-galar: Slowking-Galar
:tapu-bulu: Tapu Bulu
:tyranitar: Tyranitar
:venusaur-mega: Venusaur-Mega
:zoroark-hisui: Zoroark-Hisui

Guidelines

There are some guidelines to keep in mind before posting here. We want to foster intelligent discussion, not unfounded arguments. Please keep these things in mind:
  • Posts like "I think X Pokemon should be in Y Rank" will be deleted; make sure to back your opinion with facts and an actual analysis of the metagame.
  • Adding onto the above, I would simply like to point out that, while usage stats may be used to support your argument, they should not be the basis of your argument. Saying something along the lines of "X Pokemon is not used often, so it should drop" or "X Pokemon is used very often, but it isn't ranked very high, it should rise" are not valid arguments.
  • You shouldn't merely state the obvious things either. We know that Galarian Darmanitan has access to a very strong STAB Icicle Crash combined with good coverage options. We are far more interested in knowing what meta trends may favor Galarian Darmanitan.
  • Replays are mandatory to support a nomination if a Pokemon is Unranked.
  • This is not the place for personal attacks. Not everyone agrees on the viability of Pokemon, and that is no reason to attack them. Any posts that do attack users will be swiftly deleted and met with an infraction.
  • This is not the thread to talk about suspect tests. One liners also have no place here. Both will be deleted and may be met with an infraction on repeated offense.

This would have been a longer time coming if the last suspect had ended with a ban result but given that we now know Tera will be staying in National Dex, we have a big new VR update based on some of our observations from the last months of the metagame and World Cup.

Code:
New Additions:
Sneasler -> A+
Enamorus -> A-
Lilligant-Hisui -> B+
Samurott-Hisui -> B+
Basculegion -> B
Basculegion-F -> B
Enamorus-Therian -> C

Rises:
Gholdengo A+ -> S-
Iron Valiant A -> A+
Great Tusk A- -> A
Volcarona A- -> A
Charizard-Y B+ -> A-
Clefable B -> B+
Gliscor B -> A-
Baxcalibur B- -> B
Rillaboom B- -> B
Cresselia C -> B-
Magnezone C -> B-
Slowking-Galar C -> B-
Dondozo UR -> C
Scream Tail UR -> C
Kommo-o UR -> B-

Drops:
Tornadus-Therian S- -> A+
Tapu-Lele A+ -> A
Zamazenta A+ -> A
Garchomp A -> A-
Dragonite A- -> B+
Scizor-Mega A- -> B+
Urshifu-RS A- -> B+
Weavile B+ -> B
Floatzel B -> B-
Iron Hands B -> B-
Skeledirge B -> B-
Tangrowth B -> B-
Ting-Lu B -> B-
Victini B -> B-
Kingdra C -> UR
Tyranitar C -> UR
Zoroark-Hisui C -> UR
Doc
 
Last edited:

adem

her
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National Dex, we have a big new VR update based on some of our observations from the last months of the metagame and World Cup.

Tapu-Lele A+ -> A

hey can someone explain this to me pretty please

Rillaboom B- -> B
Urshifu-RS A- -> B+

err

Magnezone C -> B-

this one too im quite confused

no change to mtar or

Weavile B+ -> B

a bit random methinks, any specific reason why?


if anything i expected the opposite / no change for these, especially based on the world cup and the past few months (also would be cool if u guys included the sheet :3)

e:

Enamorus -> A- ???
 
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Oculars

JUST WAIT TILL I DROP THESE FLAMES
is a Tiering Contributor
:cresselia: B- -> A or A+

in what world is this thing in the same tier of mon as corviknight skeledirge and tangrowth, this thing is so absurd people are even talking about banning stored power because of it. After tera it has only one weakness which is a type it previously resisted, can run berries to make it a physical monster or cloak to avoid spdef drops and garg shenanigans. By far the strongest setup sweeper in the game right now other than maybe SD gambit. Screens let this thing setup for free youre only stopping it with taunt, haze or tricking it a scarf.
 
The power creep this gen is painful. Its actually disgusting.

regular Ttar and Chomp unranked
Kyurem, Weavile, Zapdos, Clefable, Fini, and Urshifu-RS in the B tiers

Gambit is just a better Ttar in every way.
Tusk is just Lando 2.0.
Iron Valiant’s stats feel fucking illegal and if this was Gen 8 Natdex it would’ve been banned no doubt.
Garg has the bulk of a fucking Groudon.
Ghold is just a better Aegi.
Sneasler’s stats are fucking jacked and has that bs Dire Claw.
The power level is so bad Zamazenta of all things is balanced here. Yes it got nerfed but I don’t think it would’ve been ok for Gen 8 OU.
Tera makes certain defensive mons unreliable just cause they can’t check mons with the insane power of Tera in the equation.
Ting-Lu’s stats are so unreal, 155HP/125DFSE/85SPD with an ability that lowers the SpA of every mon when its in the field.
Game Freak was smoking some shit when making some of these stats.

At this rate we’ll be seeing Lando-T in C tier, Mega-Lop unranked, and Magearna and Spectrier in B tier next gen.
 
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Taka

coastin' like crazy
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PUPL Champion
The power creep this gen is painful. Its actually disgusting.

regular Ttar and Chomp unranked
Kyurem, Weavile, Zapdos, Clefable, Fini, and Urshifu-RS in the B tiers

Gambit is just a better Ttar in every way.
Tusk is just Lando 2.0.
Iron Valiant’s stats feel fucking illegal and if this was Gen 8 Natdex it would’ve been banned no doubt.
Garg has the bulk of a fucking Groudon.
Ghold is just a better Aegi.
Sneasler’s stats are fucking jacked and has that bs Dire Claw.
The power level is so bad Zamazenta of all things is balanced here. Yes it got nerfed but I don’t think it would’ve been ok for Gen 8 OU.
Tera makes certain defensive mons unreliable just cause they can’t check mons with the insane power of Tera in the equation.
Ting-Lu’s stats are so unreal, 155HP/125DFSE/85SPD with an ability that lowers the SpA of every mon when its in the field.
Game Freak was smoking some shit when making some of these stats.

At this rate we’ll be seeing Lando-T in C tier, Mega-Lop unranked, and Magearna and Spectrier in B tier next gen.
tusk is worse than lando on most builds and chomp is in A- tier right now
 

adem

her
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The power creep this gen is painful. Its actually disgusting.

regular Ttar and Chomp unranked
Kyurem, Weavile, Zapdos, Clefable, Fini, and Urshifu-RS in the B tiers

Gambit is just a better Ttar in every way.
Tusk is just Lando 2.0.
Iron Valiant’s stats feel fucking illegal and if this was Gen 8 Natdex it would’ve been banned no doubt.
Garg has the bulk of a fucking Groudon.
Ghold is just a better Aegi.
Sneasler’s stats are fucking jacked and has that bs Dire Claw.
The power level is so bad Zamazenta of all things is balanced here. Yes it got nerfed but I don’t think it would’ve been ok for Gen 8 OU.
Tera makes certain defensive mons unreliable just cause they can’t check mons with the insane power of Tera in the equation.
Ting-Lu’s stats are so unreal, 155HP/125DFSE/85SPD with an ability that lowers the SpA of every mon when its in the field.
Game Freak was smoking some shit when making some of these stats.ps

At this rate we’ll be seeing Lando-T in C tier, Mega-Lop unranked, and Magearna and Spectrier in B tier next gen.
u know whats more disgusting? this word vomit that u spouted that does not make sense, nor having any notable truths.

regular tar has been a pissy mon since the last ice age, now it being a ghost resist that doesnt check pult nor ghold as well as having nothing really special compared to other breakers, it was due for an unrank. tar has been a borderline mon for ages, this isnt powercreep, this is just tar getting more mons that does what it does (click buttons with choice item), and defensively it having much less use (re the point before, as well as the fact that psychics in general are extremely uncommon, however fightings and fairys are very common!)

garchomp is a- rank lol. would help if u put some effort in reading before typing this wordsalad.

e: forgot abt this line, recovery nerf impacted cress a fuck ton, that and the fact agren doesnt exist means it loses a bit of a niche (dark resist), as well as fini losing its entire main defensive niche. weavile also no longer being the premier dark as well, and instead a steel type now is is a big hit for both. in a much more faster paced hazard based meta, as well as again, recover nerf, the influx of 2 new steels, tera being a nuisance for it with the amount of tera steels, new rkillers in zama valiant and pult not suprising kyurem is in b lol. nothing to do with powercreep just it not having a favourable meta, kyurem thrives on slower bulkier metas, and currently the tier is not that. zapdos again recovery nerf + new steels heavily annoy it, its on an uptrend just going to take a bit of time. shifu rs being dropped was a wild decision that a lot of people dont 7nderstand, so i wont comment on it, except idt it deserved to drop at all.

gambit is not a better tar in every way, they other than the fact that they are physical pursuiters and ghost resists, gambit lacks the immediete power that tar has, as well as the fire resist to softcheck stuff like tran. issue is with stuff like tera and the fact that ourin best ghosts uturn and make it rain all over tar, compared to say, sm where the best ghost is like blacephalon, it loses a big niche.

comparing tusk to lando is like comparing apples to oranges, tusk is a much more offensively oriented and direct ground, and they hoth have different defensive utility + in general function different. the only thing they share is that they are ground types. so no, it isnt “lando 2.0” its. whole different mon, as shown by the vr (which again you failed to comprehend or even just read really), where lando is a+ and tusk is a, both being amazing in their distinct roles in the meta.

i literally dont know how your so pressed about ivals stats, there are legit tons of mons in last gen ndou that have a similar stat spread, ie gren, mega diancie, koko, mtios being the main ones which have the most similiar x/1/x/1/x/1 stat spread, but if you mean just high attack high speed you get even more, kart lop etc. and yes, it would most likely be banned last gen, although i think your forgetting a teensy tiny little reason why. the fact that we lack the very notable s tier pokemon that also happens to check it, hint: its gholdengo, as well as other miscellaneous stuff like clod and torn t, and rkillers like sneas ur own val pult etc. i am genuinely confused if u are actually serious at this point in the post

garg has… 100/130/90 bulk…. on a rock type…. unlike groudon it doesnt have the miles better ground typing, 150/100/90 offenses eithe…. so idk what im supposed to say? u know what else has similiar bulk? toxapex, corviknight, melmetal last gen, ferrothorn etc etc, u get the point, boohoo garg has big bulk, so do like 20 other mons lol.

aegi has sucked last gen as well and they function completely differently as well, all they share is that they are bulky steel ghosts that can break, again apples to oranges, and dont see what creep this is considering, as previously mentioned, aegi was dogshit last gen too…

sneaslers stats are…. normal??? theres like 20 other mons who ive mentioned before that have similiar stat spreads as it including…
ding ding ding its counterpart, weavile!

i dont think zama liked the introduction of 2 new s tier ghost types, 10 point stat nerf to its offenses, its ability being a one time boost, as well as the fact that anything can change type to resist and fuck it over now… and the fact its still a tier despite all these nerfs which idk how u downplay but u did is quite solid. also it wouldnt be ok for gen8 ou, u know why? because it didnt get nerfed in gen8 ou, gen8 ou also didnt have another s tier ghost type as well as everything being able to change to whatever type they like, although if it did i dont see why it wouldnt be lol.

this one line is the one line i somewhat agree with you in this entire post, and the only one that makes any sort of sense. so im not going to comment much on it, although i think ur still overexagerrating how much tera impacts things defensively, yes it sucks but it isnt this archetype ending mechanic u seem to think it is.

ting lus stats really are unreal, huh. u know what else is? regigigas. u know what else is? slaking. u know what these 3 pokemon have in common other than amazing stats? they all suck despite high and well placed stats. u know why? because stats arent everything! gigas and slaking cursed with a horrible ability, ting lu cursed with a horrible movepool, and yeah that isnt as bad as the ability, hence why its still ranked and usable. idk how u made ting lu to be this crazy stat demon broken powercreep pokemon when in reality its mid, even with its stats, because stats arent everything, just like we have seen in the past with gigas and king.

At this rate we’ll be seeing Lando-T in C tier, Mega-Lop unranked, and Magearna and Spectrier in B tier next gen.
no we wont, ur nonsense doomposting isnt going to be fruitful because non of it is actually real

hope that helps
 
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:Baxcalibur: B -> B+
Personally think this is way above the B rank stuff. Unless you're running MScizor, Ferro, Skarm or a balloon Gholdengo, this mon can just clean up teams or break open huge holes in teams. Tera even makes it quite nasty to try and offensively handle sometimes, and the fact it outruns every unboosted threat after a DD is nuts, basically needing scarfers or booster mons to revenge safely (or Mzor, but again tera complicates this).

:Corviknight: B- -> C
This mon suuucks. Passive do nothing wall that linvites in NP Gholdengo for free and makes defog sets so much worse. Skarm is honestly better as at least it can spike, and it better handles common physical threats.
 

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