Announcement National Dex UU Suspect Test 13: Medusa



Don't knock on death's door—hit the doorbell and run.

For a long time, Hydreigon was previously considered the best Pokemon in the tier when it was last around, its superb offensive typing and stats, defensive attributes, and huge set versatility largely compounded by the new addition of Nasty Plot to its arsenal, on top of the discovery of the nearly uncounterable Nasty Plot + Steelium Z set, which could easily lure in remove the many Fairy-type checks of the tier, such as Mega Altaria after a boost, ultimately made it far too centralizing of a force that was eventually banished to UUBL.

However, fast forward to today’s metagame, and you may notice that the current environment is far from entirely suitable for it to thrive. Hydreigon’s base 98 Speed, its biggest issue, while not bad by the metagame’s current standards, becomes much more of a hindrance with our expansive list of options for revenge killing most offensive Pokemon in comparison, Hydreigon included. As far as examples go, Cobalion is possibly the greatest it’s ever been, and can easily blank Hydreigon’s STABs to outspeed and strike back with a Close Combat OHKO in return, while others, such as Mienshao, CC Zeraora, U-turn Zarude, Draco Meteor Salamence or Noivern (If because Special sets have since risen to be the main sets for their utility as offensive pivots), and the newly discovered RestTalk Primarina have also been seeing more exploration on top of the existing list of faster revenge killers and/or checks, such as Specially defensive Celesteela, Mega Altaria, Keldeo, Terrakion, and Tapu Bulu, giving teams more options to deal with Hydreigon as a whole without compromising on much else, given their already existing importance on a wide variety of team structures and playstyles. Moreover, the prominence of most of these Pokemon to act as full-on or mid-ground speed control also significantly limits Hydreigon’s opportunities to set up Nasty Plot throughout a match altogether. Choiced sets on the other hand, especially the Specs variants, while able to maximize coverage and wallbreaking potential through instant power in the case of the latter, can still struggle to predict around our many resists, and being locked into the wrong move can also be detrimental in such a volatile offensive metagame with many setup Pokemon to take advantage of it, especially when factoring in Draco Meteor’s -2 Special Attack drop.

Additionally, it has been commonly cited that Hydreigon would be a healthy addition to the tier in its own right, with said set versatility being capable of fulfilling some crucial roles in the current metagame; Choice Scarf sets have the potential to be an excellent revenge killer and speed control option, leveraging Hydreigon’s strong STAB combination, good defensive typing, ability to maintain momentum with U-turn, and ability to provide hazard control with Defog should it go that route. while its offensive sets can also potentially run Roost for longevity, opening up some interesting opportunities with its defensive typing as a Spikes-immune offensive check to several notable Pokemon, including the likes of Mega Manectric, several Aegislash variants, and Demon Deoxys-D.

However, this is not to say that some aspects of Hydreigon haven’t raised some concerns among the playerbase. To start, Hydreigon’s Nasty Plot sets still lack consistent defensive counterplay, especially when factoring in the list of Pokemon that it is capable of switching into and taking advantage of with either set, such as Mega Manectric, various Psychics, and most Water and Ground-types via its resistances and bulk, with various types of Z-Crystals at its disposal to bypass many of the defensive answers available, such as Mega Altaria and Cobalion with Groundium Z, or Darkinium to potentially break past Specially defensive walls such as Celesteela at +2 and prevent Pokemon such as Salamence from being one-time switch-ins, meaning that you will often have to wait before it reveals said coverage move to appropriately deal with it in this regard. Choiced sets can also potentially surprise or invalidate much of the offensive counterplay on teams, limiting most offensive counterplay options to revenge killing on a free switch at the absolute least.

Suspect Test Information
  • Reading this is mandatory to participate in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 79 with at least 40 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 79 GXE, down to a minimum of 20 games at a GXE of 83. Also, needing more than 40 games to reach 79 GXE will suffice.
  • GXEMinimum Games
    7940
    79.239
    79.438
    79.637
    79.836
    8035
    80.234
    80.433
    80.632
    80.831
    8130
    81.229
    81.428
    81.627
    81.826
    8225
    82.224
    82.423
    82.622
    82.821
    8320
  • You must use a fresh account that begins with the given prefix for this suspect test. That prefix is NDUUDREI. For example, I could signup and qualify with the name NDUUDREI Arishem.
  • You may not impersonate or mock another user with your account name. If there is any slight hesitation, you're probably better off picking a different name. We reserve the right to null your voting requisites if you are found impersonating or mocking another user with your account name. Moderator discretion will be applied.
  • If you are found trying to manipulate voting requisites in any way, you will be met with a harsh infraction. Manipulating voting requisites ranges from faking your screenshot to asking another user to forfeit.
  • The Pokemon that's being suspect tested, Hydreigon, will be allowed on the National Dex UU ladder for the next two weeks so that we can properly assess its position in the metagame.
  • This suspect test will go on for two weeks. It will last until November the 22nd at 11:59 PM GMT+8.
 
speedran w a trickroom team
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While Hydreigon is threatened offensively by a relatively large portion of the tier, there's virtually zero defensive counterplay to it, especially when factoring Z-moves. The bevy of offensive checks would typically make Hydreigon by definition a glass cannon, but due to the INSANE amount of pivots in the tier, Hydreigon gets way too many opportunities to hit the field and get what feels like a guaranteed KO while even lacking the typical poor bulk of a glass cannon. Half the tier genuinely has access to a pivot move, with Mega Evolutions like Beedrill, Manectric, and Pidgeot, Scarfers like Mienshao and Rotom-Wash, and defensive pivots like Rotom-Heat and Scizor (There are like at least 30 more lmao).
 
speedran w a trickroom team
While Hydreigon is threatened offensively by a relatively large portion of the tier, there's virtually zero defensive counterplay to it, especially when factoring Z-moves. The bevy of offensive checks would typically make Hydreigon by definition a glass cannon, but due to the INSANE amount of pivots in the tier, Hydreigon gets way too many opportunities to hit the field and get what feels like a guaranteed KO while even lacking the typical poor bulk of a glass cannon. Half the tier genuinely has access to a pivot move, with Mega Evolutions like Beedrill, Manectric, and Pidgeot, Scarfers like Mienshao and Rotom-Wash, and defensive pivots like Rotom-Heat and Scizor (There are like at least 30 more lmao).
This is the wrong thread for voter ID, check out the voter ID thread for reqs
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...spect-13-voter-identification-thread.3710427/
 

Trashuny

Banned deucer.
I have to agree with Togkey that Hydreigon does not have viable counterplay in the current metagame. The list of pokemon that people use now that can switch in without fearing dark/dragon/fire/ground or even steel pretty much starts and ends with Primarina. I think that if you're using a somewhat offensive team and you're not getting at least one kill Hydreigon vs a balance team you're getting severely outplayed or you're playing against a Primarina. The second best switch-in would be Mega Altaria. However, it's sometimes hard to mega early game to resist dark and not be stealth rock weak if your opponent is trying to make sure you don't. Also, this calc exists:
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Altaria-Mega: 156-185 (44 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

I think that a poke that doesn't really have defensive counters and can easily grab a kill each game with a Z-move doesn't mean it's inherently broken, but I think Hydreigon fits into this metagame too well. Defensive cores a lot of the time are filled with Grass, Water, Ground & Psychic-types, or just slow pokes that Hydreigon can switch into and not feel threatened. Levitate also helps a lot for that and its matchup vs Spikes teams. Its typing lets it get a ton of opportunities vs balance, and is what seperates it in my opinion from other very hard to wall breakers like Terrakion or Chandelure. This and its pretty much unwallable coverage definitely makes up for weaknesses like its underwhelming speed stat or weakness to U-turn pivots. Just look at the viability ranks, this tier doesn't really have more than a few viable fairies and pretty much no special wall stops it https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/national-dex-uu-viability-rankings.3672482/. I really think the only positive of Hydreigon is that we get another good ghost resist. I think viable ghost resists in this tier are lacking, but that's not a reason to unban something so OP so late into the tier.

:ss/hydreigon:
Hydreigon @ Darkinium Z
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Nasty Plot
- Dark Pulse
- Earth Power

I used this set on the ladder, and it's really only walled by Mega Altaria (needs to mega), Primarina and other Hydreigon (will not switch into you, unless scarf is trying to outplay and pivot) and fighting types (that fear draco). It maximizes how threatening it is vs balance with Sub and NP, which turns options like Knock Off or Toxic into a liability. It also can't really be danced around like Life Orb sets maybe can. Great set, you can also replace Earth Power with other stuff.

I will vote ban for sure, I know it's early but defensive counterplay doesn't really exist, and Hydreigon's typing, bulk, strength and coverage let it do too much offensively. I don't think the tier can adapt in healthy ways to it.
 
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Almost done with reqs at the moment and have to disagree with what is going around about Hydreigon currently given the different sets I've tried, and teams built with it around.

As of right now, I think Nasty Plot is incredibly mediocre, with every set being very easy to revenge kill with a good chunk of options to scout out what set Hydreigon is currently using and pivoting around it. Everything ranging from Keldeo, Cobalion, Terrakion, Mienshao, Salamence, Zydog and even Zeraora to some extent can all easily revenge kill Hydreigon. I'd also like to mention that out of all the nasty plot sets I think Dark Pulse + Earth Power is the weakest, given that Mandibuzz is very obnoxious and gets completely free pivots off of you, forcing you out completely, and it lacks immediate power into other Dark resists, while also lacking power after it throws out the Z-Move. Draco sets I think are much more effective generally, even with the fact that they suffer more vs Primarina, since you have more immediate power to make sure stuff like Keldeo doesn't just directly switch into you for not much damage.

Now, that doesn't change the fact that it's a very potent breaker, honestly very similar to something like Thundurus-T (who is not broken but I digress). There's only a certain amount of checks that are present in the metagame and those could potentially be broken through with a Z move. Generally tho, the opportunities with which it can fire these off should be limited just by how teams are built. Hydreigon's typing is great, letting it come into important stuff like Volcanion, Rotom-W, Rotom-H and Slowking pretty safely. A common trend among those however is that they will just pivot to something faster that can pretty easily kill it or just abuse it's U-Turn weakness and chip down Hydreigon really fast, forcing Roosts. In Volcanion's case, Steam Eruption just blasts a good chunk into it's HP, making it's life pretty tough. Hydreigon sets lacking roosts are a one-and-done type deal, where you get a pretty limited time to try and blast holes into the opposing team, so trying NP + 3 attacks is very inconsistent in my experience.

That's where Choice Specs comes in and makes the most of what non-Roost Hydreigon can do. I think it's a really powerful breaker that gets good chances at making the most out of it's dual STAB combo, even if it is a bit prediction reliant / hates Primarina. RestTalk Primarina is a pretty great mon rn and it remains great even before Hydreigon was released, since it's a very valuable answer to common Aegislash and Keldeo sets, while also keeping Salamence and Moltres at bay. Mega Altaria as a check is admittedly shaky however, since specs flash cannon can just easily 2hko it. At the moment this trait is not unique to Hydreigon on choiced sets, since other mons like Keldeo and Urshifu-R can also pull this off. Celesteela, Hippowdon and AV Tangrowth (AKA The Good Set) are all also good options for scouting out what move a Hydreigon might throw out as well, even Nihilego to some extent can take one move not named Earth Power. There's also AV Azumarill who exists and is good I think but when was the last time we've seen Azumarill tbh. Lastly I'd also like to mention a Roost 3a/ Roost+Taunt 2a with Life orb, which is in my opinion one of it's most versatile sets in terms of coverage and immediate power/fatbreaking with less prediction, but also suffers in the longevity department.

Overall I think that I can see Hydreigon being a very strong and incredibly important part of the metagame that either glues teams together with scarf or offers good versatility vs obnoxious waters like Volcanion and Rotom-W, while not necessarily changing the structure of teams too far from what they already were in order to attempt to answer it. The general speed and bulk of the metagame is pretty easily able to keep it contained and prevent too many free opportunities. This is still possibly early to post a long summary like this and is still subject to change, but that's what I've gathered so far.
 
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Mudkip made an interesting point in his post above about Hydreigon's ability to switch into and take advantage of being a 'double-edged sword' type of play that remains exploitable. But to give more examples, Hydreigon's susceptibility to being revenge killed also comes into play quite often here.
  • 252 SpA Manectric-Mega Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 64-76 (19.6 - 23.3%) -- 23.6% chance to 4HKO
  • 0 Atk Azelf U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 134-158 (41.2 - 48.6%) -- 68.4% chance to 2HKO
  • 252 SpA Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 98-116 (30.1 - 35.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
  • 252 SpA Choice Specs Volcanion Steam Eruption vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 147-174 (45.2 - 53.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  • 0 SpA Slowking Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 47-56 (14.4 - 17.2%) -- possible 6HKO (Dark Pulse doesn't come close to OHKOing whatsoever, with Regen factored in, Slowking can take the chance to TP out into a revenge killer more often than not)
  • Deoxys-Defense Night Shade vs. 0 HP Hydreigon: 100-100 (30.7 - 30.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
  • 0 SpA Rotom-Wash Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 42-51 (12.9 - 15.6%) -- possible 6HKO
With hazards and/or status effects being taken into account, 30% or so might not be that significant if it means gaining a free opportunity to setup or attack, but it DOES matter in the long-run when they're also coming from the only Pokemon that Hydreigon can theoretically get opportunities against for free. Even with pivoting support or an aggressive double into these Pokemon (both being the best-case scenario which doesn't get around the faster threats that can still chip it down for free, as stated above with mons such as MMane and Azelf), by taking such damage, you're still effectively passing up on other opportunities you would otherwise like to take, and this limits its overall consistency. I've even seen some people outright forgo the longevity of Roost to try and cover more Pokemon with more moveslots, exacerbating the aforementioned longevity issue against an increasingly large list of offensive Pokemon, staying out of CB Scizor Bullet Punch range, not being picked off by Mamoswine's Ice Shard, and eating Aegislash's CC (which you don't even threaten to OHKO back without Specs) to force it out to name a few, are all examples of hugely important and common mid-game interactions that you will have to forfeit as a result of being forced to take this chip damage in exchange for the early wallbreaking opportunity. Even if you consider most non-Roost Hydreigon sets to be bad as a result of this, the inherent issue with other offensive sets (LO 3a and NP 2a) is something I still find to be quite apparent, as while they do circumvent the attempts to play around this issue and give Hydreigon some reasonable defensive utility in the process, they don't give any advantages in the situation of Hydreigon already being chipped on the turns it tries to switch into these Pokemon to make progress, mainly due to the aforementioned list of offensive threats that already outspeed it being much larger from that percentage alone, on top of forcing additional LO recoil, coverage issues from taking up a moveslot, and Roost spam to boot.

Hydreigon often needs to choose where it wants to attack due to having a limited amount of opportunities to break teams in practice. This is ultimately something I find to be quite similar to other wallbreakers such as CB Urshifu-RS and Nidoking, which while difficult to cover defensively due to sheer strength against the Pokemon that they can trade themselves with to remove or safely force out (an aspect that I personally think touches on rewarding skillful play and intelligent long-term planning when using them), often immediately have to switch out after launching an attack due to being easily forced out offensively, while still having situationally useful checks that can often suffice more often than not for the opportunities where they do manage to safely get in, such as AV Tangrowth or Salamence for the former and SpDef Hippowdon for the latter. This also serves as a big part behind why I don't consider Hydreigon to be banworthy in the current metagame - regardless of the options it might be carrying to invalidate said defensive answer over the course of the game, it simply doesn't get enough opportunities to use them all at once for me to consider it as an unhealthy presence, not being so in the way that forces most teams to detract from the usual and consistent methods of handling most offensive Pokemon that also happen to cover Hydreigon itself by default.

I would also like to address the other aspect of Hydreigon, that being the other moves it can run and wants to opt for to get past the myriad of common defensive Pokemon in the tier, which while not perfect defensive counters on their own (barring Primarina), still remain as common and splashable picks that severely undermine the type of progress Hydreigon can make in a game, often when paired with an offensive check to negate the progress Hydreigon DOES manage to get over making said predictions from an offensive standpoint. Many of them (AV Tangrowth with Focus Blast, which it can replace HP Fire for when commonly paired with Skarm to handle Scizor, since it also has other justifiable uses such as preventing SD Cobalion from using you as setup fodder. M-Altaria, which often runs bulky tank sets that also enable it to better check Pokemon such as Urshifu-RS and Keldeo. SpDef LeechTect Steela, a hugely important piece of the tier that crucially covers other annoying matchups against defensive teams, notably SubTox Aegi and HO without having to deviate from its usual sets and main roles because of Hydreigon alone .etc) can only be beaten if Hydreigon has the right move to beat them at the right times, and all are and will continue to be stable parts of the metagame even without Hydreigon being around.

Granted, said set variety does separate Hydreigon from most traditional wallbreakers enough to make it a seriously threatening Pokemon in its own right, and it does occasionally present the in-battle dilemma and subsequent 50/50 between offensive and defensive counterplay options, but the point still remains; Even under the imperative of ‘if’, it always needs to be able to fit all the moves to account for the defensive Pokemon it wants to hit in the first place, make multiple correct plays over the course of multiple turns, and not get punished for mispredicting, both of which are liable to go wrong because of Hydreigon’s low Speed and lack of initial power outside of Specs sets against the overall metagame. Hydreigon just doesn’t have the same level of influence and threat potential that justifies pushing it in the same negative direction as per say, some of the more recently banned UUBLs (SD Rock Z Blaziken behind screens warping the counterplay around it to fit its hyper-specific design through invalidating offensive counterplay options or forcing teams to play a heavily skewed prediction game behind its boosted Z-Move, unresisted offensive combo and recoil, TWave ProPads Melmetal turning the entire tier into a 2HKO-fest by beating down the entire defensive meta from full through its absurd power and titanic bulk facilitating opportunities for it.) I’d even go as far as to say that, aside from being an additional mitigating factor in its potency, it’s this dynamic of having to pick and choose among sets that also opens up some interestingly healthy possibilities for continued metagame development, as Hydreigon also help keeps Pokemon such as Volcanion and Aegislash in check offensively, is a solid speed control option and cleaner with Scarf sets which also provides hazard removal and keeps playstyles such as HO and VoltTurn in check, and is one of the few good Dragon-types for pressuring fat and obnoxious Psychics. It’s that unique quality on an offensive Pokemon which I really like without it being overbearing.

Overall, Hydreigon has presented to us with an alluring set of traits that have made this suspect test more than warranted at this point in time, the combination of its inherent traits to improve the tier along with a stable list of counterplay on a wide variety of archetypes, which has proven to remain consistent up until this point are enough to convince me of its merit, and I will be taking the opportunity to vote to unban Hydreigon.
 

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