Announcement National Dex UU Suspect 5: Unbound (Hoopa-Unbound Suspect)

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Hey everyone, the NatDex UU tiering council has decided to suspect test Hoopa-Unbound!

Suspect Reasoning
For as long as it has been around, Hoopa-Unbound has been one of the most dangerous wallbreakers. Its STABs, coverage, and extraordinary power makes it almost impossible to switch into, and its reasonable speed stat means it outspeeds the majority of the defensive metagame. Additionally, it has a large diversity of sets (Choice Specs, Choice Band and Substitute to name a few) it can choose to run, which makes it unpredictable and makes the already arduous task of walling even harder without losing a Pokemonto it. Its 130 base special defence also comes in handy in a pinch, letting it stomach most non super effective special hits, and simultaneously making revenge killing it trickier.

Since it was freed, Hoopa-Unbound has been kept in check by pursuiters and a generally offensive metagame giving it few opportunities to come in, as well as its poor physical defence and lack of resistances mandating significant team support to get in safely. However, the meta has recently shifted to favour more bulky teams, and some Pursuit users have gotten worse, partly as a result of this shift. Additionally, Substitute sets, which have gained some popularity recently, completely bypasses Pursuit, while still threatening to devastate walls with a powerful Z move. In the eyes of the council, these factors have pushed Hoopa-Unbound over the edge.

Hoopa-Unbound definitely has its flaws, though - 80 speed, while still faster than the majority of the defensive metagame, is still slow by the rest of the tier's standards, and notably leaves it outpaced by Urshifu-Rapid-Strike, Keldeo, Terrakion, Weavile, to name a few. This, coupled with its lack of resistances and recovery, makes it reliant on teammates, coming in on weak special attacking walls, or sacking to get in. While few special attackers can both outspeed and OHKO it, they can still pick off weakened Hoopa-U, and some have U-turn to OHKO it, such as. Additionally, choice sets can become exploitable, giving things like Mega Altaria, Urshifu-Rapid Strike or Scizor opportunities to set up if it is not careful. Substitute sets can feel lacking in power against some fatter teams once the Z is used up, too.

Suspect Test Information

  • **This is new to National Dex UU suspect tests** Reading this is mandatory to participate in the suspect test. The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 79 with at least 40 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 79 GXE, down to a minimum of 20 games at a GXE of 83. Also, needing more than 40 games to reach 79 GXE will suffice.
  • GXEminimum games
    7940
    79.239
    79.438
    79.637
    79.836
    8035
    80.234
    80.433
    80.632
    80.831
    8130
    81.229
    81.428
    81.627
    81.826
    8225
    82.224
    82.423
    82.622
    82.821
    8320
  • You must use a fresh account that begins with the given prefix for this suspect test. That prefix is NDUUHU. For example, I could signup and qualify with the name NDUUHU Niadev.
  • You may not impersonate or mock another user with your account name. If there is any slight hesitation, you're probably better off picking a different name. We reserve the right to null your voting requisites if you are found impersonating or mocking another user with your account name. Moderator discretion will be applied.
  • If you are found trying to manipulate voting requisites in any way, you will be met with a harsh infraction. Manipulating voting requisites ranges from faking your screenshot to asking another user to forfeit.
  • The Pokemon that's being suspect tested, Hoopa-Unbound, will be allowed on the National Dex UU ladder for the next two weeks so that we can properly assess its position in the metagame.
  • This suspect test will go on for two weeks. It will last until May the 26th at 11:59 PM GMT+1.
 
Man, Hoopa Unbound has been all over the place. In Generation 6, it got banned to Ubers. In Generation 7, it stayed in OU. And this Generation, it somehow went to UU (though this suspect will probably determine whether it gets to stay that way or not).

While I don't play NatDex UU, I can attest that Hoopa Unbound is pretty powerful, and considering that I've seen it doing somewhat successfully in NatDex OU, I can only imagine how much of a prick this thing can be in UU. Unbound's stats, to start off with, are ridiculous, boasting a 170 in its Sp. Atk stat; as such, it's actually in the ninth place for the highest Sp. Atk stat in the game. Its Attack stat of 160 is no joke, either. Both stats pretty much give Hoopa-U free reign on either going for a physical attacker or a special attacker set. A mixed set, although not as common from my experience, is also an optimal choice.

Another critical point regarding Hoopa-U would be its surprisingly decent movepool. Sure, it's nowhere near as luxurious as Cinderace or Magearna's, but some of the moves found there can prove quite useful as coverage. Without accounting for its two signature moves that downright ignore Protect, Hoopa can pick a Fighting move of its choice; it can run Drain Punch on its physical set and prolong itself, or it can run a powerful Focus Blast (ahem . . . Focus Miss) on its special set. It somehow gets Energy Ball and Thunderbolt, but you won't ever see those two moves on any Hoopa-U set ever unless it's an extremely niche gimmick set. Special sets actually get a bonus in the form of Nasty Plot, a set up that works very well for a Pokémon whose Sp. Atk stat is already monstrous to begin with. Add to the fact that it can run Z-moves and one is going to play that guessing game of what Hoopa-U is running (though in the case of Z-moves, it's usually Darkinium or Fightinium, so your guesswork is reduced, I guess?).

That aside, Hoopa-U obviously struggles in the defensive department. An Sp. Def stat of 130 is relatively nice, but its Defense of 90 isn't exactly something to write home about. It actually has zero resistances, and in a tier that's brimming to the top with some relatively great attackers, Hoopa-U's freedom begins to diminish. It's weak to Fairy, but more importantly, it's double-weak to Bug. OU doesn't see too many Bug types, but in UU, some noticeable Bugs truly thrive in that environment. Ribombee, while mostly a web setter, is sure to give Hoopa-U a real scare, and Buzzwole is happy to welcome it with open arms. Far nastier, however, are the two absolute demons that are Mega Beedrill and Scizor; Mega Beedrill being able to out-speed even scarfed variants and threaten it with an Adaptability U-Turn, and Scizor being able to tank some STAB assuming the djinn didn't use Nasty Plot yet. Speaking of which, 80 speed isn't exactly great, and unless it runs scarf, Hoopa-U can be easily out-sped by a relatively large portion of the UU metagame.

All in all, and through my experience, Hoopa-U's main problem seems to be the fact that it can run a multitude of sets. Aside from the two prominent Choice Band/Choice Specs sets, the djinn can also run Nasty Plot and hit you up with a Z-move. There's actually a couple of cases where Hoopa-U will be willing to run Trick Room and still prove to be minimally useful. By the time you figure out which set it is, it's probably going to send at least one of your team members to the grave. This was the similar case with Cinderace and Magearna (both which now reside in Ubers), but unlike these two that can actually prove to be near unstoppable at a certain point, it's a little easier to formulate a plan to deal effectively with the djinn once you know its set. The last suspect test pretty much drained me, and seeing as I have little-to-zero experience in UU, I probably won't participate. With that said, it seems the choice on banning Hoopa-U will probably come down to how much of a problem predicting its sets will be as well as the consequences that follow a misprediction.

EDIT: Hoopa-Unbound's defense is 60, not 90. Thanks to Heavyweapons Mann for pointing this out; I can't believe I made such an error.
 
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While I don't play NatDex UU,
While some of your assumptions are correct, thats what they are: assumptions. I'd reccomend that you play the tier first and/or suspect ladder to develop your thoughts before posting, as some parts of this are misleading and exemplify that you know little about the NDUU metagame.

Now onto my personal thoughts on Hoopa-U. A minor glance over the tier shows that there are next to 0 safe switchins to the specs set. Dark Pulse is incredibly free, even with Mega Altaria as good as it is. Mandibuzz as a switchin might make sense at first, but it's honestly just not that good of a choice and is still crippled by Trick. Now of course, ill delve into its flaws. Weavile is currently an incredible mon, going off the power of its banded Axels and its ability to trap the ever present Slowking. Hoopa is subsequently Pursuit weak, since its low defenses leave it incredibly vulnerable to it, making most games with it go into take one, give one, where Hoopa almost always takes a kill, and the Weavile team takes one in return. Now while I haven't personally ran into this set, Substitute sets bypass this, as Axel can't KO Hoopa from behind a sub and you lose your Weavile in return. It's other flaws include the difficutly in which it has to switch in sometimes, as its low defenses hinder it. I don't think this is a problem tho, since Mega Manectric, Scizor and Slowking all give it relatively riskless oppurtunities to initiate the pursuit sequence against something like opposing Slowking or Skarmory. The absolute lack of switchins to this thing combined with what I feel to be an unhealthy confinements on teambuilding and inconsistent counterplay lead me to believe it should be Banned.
 
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Nowno

la frappe du quartier est approuvé ✅
0 safe switchins to the specs set
There is just celesteela, and that's it, but it even get canceled by trick. Tbh, I think the most problematic is specs, because of Trick and Psyshock. In order, Nasty Plot is also really hard to deal with, but there are more answer like Bulky altaria, pyukumuku.... and band is the most manageable, being check by Buzzwole, Aggron-mega, and some other ways, + trapping it with weavile if it used Hyperspace Furry. Even band is really restrective and hard to deal with tho.

I think the real problem is specs, able to remove a Pokemon from any game. This alone would be a bit manageable, but the fact that, when you see an Hoopa, you have to guess what's his set to not lose any Pokemon.
 
Honestly about hoopa unbound, I dont see it that much but my experiencie is while is very, I mean very powerful, it has minimal defensive utility and that speed tier doesnt help. Stall is quite common so it can help in the wallbreaking department, probably next to diggersby in the raw breaking power. Dont know what to vote, maybe I will know while doing the suspect
 
Man, Hoopa Unbound has been all over the place. In Generation 6, it got banned to Ubers. In Generation 7, it stayed in OU. And this Generation, it somehow went to UU (though this suspect will probably determine whether it gets to stay that way or not).

While I don't play NatDex UU, I can attest that Hoopa Unbound is pretty powerful, and considering that I've seen it doing somewhat successfully in NatDex OU, I can only imagine how much of a prick this thing can be in UU. Unbound's stats, to start off with, are ridiculous, boasting a 170 in its Sp. Atk stat; as such, it's actually in the ninth place for the highest Sp. Atk stat in the game. Its Attack stat of 160 is no joke, either. Both stats pretty much give Hoopa-U free reign on either going for a physical attacker or a special attacker set. A mixed set, although not as common from my experience, is also an optimal choice.

Another critical point regarding Hoopa-U would be its surprisingly decent movepool. Sure, it's nowhere near as luxurious as Cinderace or Magearna's, but some of the moves found there can prove quite useful as coverage. Without accounting for its two signature moves that downright ignore Protect, Hoopa can pick a Fighting move of its choice; it can run Drain Punch on its physical set and prolong itself, or it can run a powerful Focus Blast (ahem . . . Focus Miss) on its special set. It somehow gets Energy Ball and Thunderbolt, but you won't ever see those two moves on any Hoopa-U set ever unless it's an extremely niche gimmick set. Special sets actually get a bonus in the form of Nasty Plot, a set up that works very well for a Pokémon whose Sp. Atk stat is already monstrous to begin with. Add to the fact that it can run Z-moves and one is going to play that guessing game of what Hoopa-U is running (though in the case of Z-moves, it's usually Darkinium or Fightinium, so your guesswork is reduced, I guess?).

That aside, Hoopa-U obviously struggles in the defensive department. An Sp. Def stat of 130 is relatively nice, but its Defense of 90 isn't exactly something to write home about. It actually has zero resistances, and in a tier that's brimming to the top with some relatively great attackers, Hoopa-U's freedom begins to diminish. It's weak to Fairy, but more importantly, it's double-weak to Bug. OU doesn't see too many Bug types, but in UU, some noticeable Bugs truly thrive in that environment. Ribombee, while mostly a web setter, is sure to give Hoopa-U a real scare, and Buzzwole is happy to welcome it with open arms. Far nastier, however, are the two absolute demons that are Mega Beedrill and Scizor; Mega Beedrill being able to out-speed even scarfed variants and threaten it with an Adaptability U-Turn, and Scizor being able to tank some STAB assuming the djinn didn't use Nasty Plot yet. Speaking of which, 80 speed isn't exactly great, and unless it runs scarf, Hoopa-U can be easily out-sped by a relatively large portion of the UU metagame.

All in all, and through my experience, Hoopa-U's main problem seems to be the fact that it can run a multitude of sets. Aside from the two prominent Choice Band/Choice Specs sets, the djinn can also run Nasty Plot and hit you up with a Z-move. There's actually a couple of cases where Hoopa-U will be willing to run Trick Room and still prove to be minimally useful. By the time you figure out which set it is, it's probably going to send at least one of your team members to the grave. This was the similar case with Cinderace and Magearna (both which now reside in Ubers), but unlike these two that can actually prove to be near unstoppable at a certain point, it's a little easier to formulate a plan to deal effectively with the djinn once you know its set. The last suspect test pretty much drained me, and seeing as I have little-to-zero experience in UU, I probably won't participate. With that said, it seems the choice on banning Hoopa-U will probably come down to how much of a problem predicting its sets will be as well as the consequences that follow a misprediction.

EDIT: Hoopa-Unbound's defense is 60, not 90. Thanks to Heavyweapons Mann for pointing this out; I can't believe I made such an error.
I think you put 90 instead of 60,so hoopa is even frailer
 
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Trashuny

Banned deucer.
If it as black and white as "Is Hoopa-Unbound broken?", it is in my opinion, obviously too much for the tier. It has almost no reliable switchins that it can't beat with a move such as Focus Blast. Also, I like using Nasty Plot with Fightinium Z to destroy pokes like Umbreon, AV Melmetal, Krookodile, Mandibuzz, the list goes on. Hoopa-U is also very easy to put on teams that need a wallbreaker and a chance vs Stall, and it has a great special defense stat to come in on moves like Scald or Giga Drain if it is very eager for a kill. I would ban it without thinking if I didn't think about the future of NDUU, it is too good of a wallbreaker, too easy to put on team, and centralizes the metagame around itself and Pursuit.

However, what I have not seen pointed out is how Hoopa-U fits in the the metagame where stall is extremely good. If Hoopa-Unbound was banned, stall is so much better. Slowking-G becomes a better special wall, Pursuit on stall becomes less necessary, Umbreon can be replaced for something that does its job better, and it just becomes harder to beat. If you play NDUU you know that there are many different types of good stalls, and many can be exploited with Hoopa-Unbound. I think it may be harder to beat stall that can explore new options if a Hoopa-Unbound ban happens. In my opinion many stalls lack something right now. Some lack pursuit, Mega Sableye (more important poke to have than you think on stall), a ground type (meaning you can spam Volt Switch against them), some are weak to Pursuit themselves, but my hypothesis is that if we ban Hoopa-Unbound stall can forgo Pursuit and become much more consistent. I am not saying if we ban Hoopa-Unbound you just can't beat stall anymore, but it is very obvious a ban will make stall much better than it is now, and it's very good now.

If I had to vote now, I would vote ban, but I just hope stall does not become an issue itself. If Hoopa-Unbound gets banned, I hope we see a Mega Sableye suspect in the future, as it is the biggest threat on stall.
 
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However, what I have not seen pointed out is how Hoopa-U fits in the metagame where stall is extremely good. If Hoopa-Unbound was banned, stall is so much better. Slowking-G becomes a better special wall, Pursuit on stall becomes less necessary, Umbreon can be replaced for something that does its job better, and it just becomes harder to beat. If you play NDUU you know that there are many different types of good stalls, and many can be exploited with Hoopa-Unbound. I think it may be harder to beat stall that can explore new options if a Hoopa-Unbound ban happens. In my opinion, many stalls lack something right now. Some lack pursuit, Mega Sableye (more important poke to have than you think on stall), a ground type (meaning you can spam Volt Switch against them), some are weak to Pursuit themselves, but my hypothesis is that if we ban Hoopa-Unbound stall can forgo Pursuit and become much more consistent. I am not saying if we ban Hoopa-Unbound you just can't beat stall anymore, but it is very obvious a ban will make stall much better than it is now, and it's very good now.
This should never ever be an argument for not banning something.

If something becomes problematic after a certain ban, we'll just test that. Over and over until we have a metagame we're content with. If you don't ban Hoopa-U solely based off mere speculation, then that'll create a super unhealthy metagame where it's just broken checking broken.

UU already has a problem of having generally more overbearing threats than OU considering OU has most of the main staple defensive Pokemon (:blissey::chansey::clefable::corviknight::ferrothorn::garchomp::gliscor::heatran::kommo-o::landorus-therian::scizor-mega::slowbro::tangrowth::tapu-fini::toxapex::tyranitar::zapdos: <-- all of them), so in this case where something is just near uncounterable outside of very fringe picks (AV Alolan Muk or die) we should just ban it.

If stall becomes a problem after, I guarantee you that the council will know how to act on that as well, be it a Mega Sableye suspect or something else.

Sorry for the rant but I just needed to get this out cause I really don't think this mindset is getting a metagame anywhere.
 

Trashuny

Banned deucer.
This should never ever be an argument for not banning something.

If something becomes problematic after a certain ban, we'll just test that. Over and over until we have a metagame we're content with. If you don't ban Hoopa-U solely based off mere speculation, then that'll create a super unhealthy metagame where it's just broken checking broken.

UU already has a problem of having generally more overbearing threats than OU considering OU has most of the main staple defensive Pokemon (:blissey::chansey::clefable::corviknight::ferrothorn::garchomp::gliscor::heatran::kommo-o::landorus-therian::scizor-mega::slowbro::tangrowth::tapu-fini::toxapex::tyranitar::zapdos: <-- all of them), so in this case where something is just near uncounterable outside of very fringe picks (AV Alolan Muk or die) we should just ban it.

If stall becomes a problem after, I guarantee you that the council will know how to act on that as well, be it a Mega Sableye suspect or something else.

Sorry for the rant but I just needed to get this out cause I really don't think this mindset is getting a metagame anywhere.
I agree with you. I would want a metagame with no Hoopa-Unbound and no Mega Sableye instead of both and I don't think Hoopa-Unbound is worth keeping just because it beats stall. I just didn't see anyone bring up how great and maybe even broken stall would be in a the future without Hoopa-Unbound, and I wanted to shine light on this. It may have seemed like being scared of stall made me consider voting no ban, and while I thought the metagame might suck right after a Hoopa-Unbound ban I said I was probably going to vote ban either way. I just think I'll take a small break until a Mega Sableye suspect happens if Hoopa-Unbound gets banned.
 
Honestly I will vote no ban, its matchup agaisnt can be quite underwhelmin at times, mainly againt mega bedrill, alt, weavile, krokodile and oother offensive mons but at least with its great spe def, it can find opportunities against mons like mega manectric, the rotoms, nihilego and other special attackers. Lets talk about stall, well I think powerful wallbreakers are always need it, in a meta where stall is so common, despite being really powerful against stall or teams that pack slow walls like deoxys defense on more BO teams its healthy for that reason (for now). At least, if they decide to ban it, we still have powerful breakers like melmetan, diggersby and infernape which can be great for offensive teams that struggle with stall, let me show some calcs:
252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Breakneck Blitz (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Pyukumuku: 240-283 (76.4 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Breakneck Blitz (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 322-379 (81.7 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Breakneck Blitz (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Buzzwole: 457-538 (109.3 - 128.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Breakneck Blitz (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 666-784 (124.7 - 146.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Iron Fist Melmetal Double Iron Bash (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 258-306 (84.8 - 100.6%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO
So yea as you can see, we still have option for the worst case scenario, curious fact, I used a non hoopa team to complete the suspect at the third try.
Diggersby is quite underated, it hits so hard, and with magneton support you can remove skarm and celesteela, and afford to run an adamnt nature easily, because you arent outspeeding much offensive mons, you hav quick attack for that and you are fast enough to outspeed walls, I guess hoopa too can afford an attack/spa attack nature, due to unlike other base 80 like dragonite and alt, that fail to outspeed things like mega beedril and mega manectric at +1, hoopa only will do it while using scarf.
 
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