Resource National Dex Ubers Viability Rankings [Update #5 at post 188!]

[Larrycharizard1]

Nominating Skarmory from C- to C+ or B-
Skarmory has a use in the Ubers metagame as a reliable check to some top-tier threats.
Skarmory can take on Necrozma-dusk-mane and ultra necrozma without any effort, unless it is carrying heat wave which they rarely do.
As well takes on E-speed arceus very well, as arceus can hit skarmory, take rocky helm chip, and be phased out.
Skarmory also is a semi-reliable check to pokemon such as zacian unless it has wild charge, and most trick room mons.
Besides this, Skarmory has whirlwind, which, unless the opponent has taunt, will phase out the opponent, making it not setup fodder.
To add to this, Skarmory also has stealth rock AND spikes, something Necrozma-dusk-mane doens't have.
Spikes and hazard stacking are a very powerful part of the meta, and can be used to great effect, helping chip down many pokemon and gaining residual damage with whirlwing + spikes.
A pokemon such as E-speed arceus could be taunted and then exploited to set spikes on, and setting at least a single spike would be relatively easy as they would be forced to switch, something its competition Necrozma-Dusk-mane couldn't do, in some cases necrozma dusk mane may even be used as setup fodder.
If zacian-C is not carrying Wild charge it would be easy for skarmory to set up spikes in its face.
It could also be used to force the all-powerful zygarde out even after many boosts as its bulk is enough to take a single thousand arrows.
Some calcs:
+2 252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 117-138 (35 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Tera Ghost Arceus Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 175-208 (52.3 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
While all of these benefits add up, Skarmory can easily be taken advantage of by powerful pokemon such as groudon-primal. To stop this, support from teammates such as giratina, giratina-o, or zygarde complete could help out skarmory.
Sadly for this mon, Necrozma dusk mane outclasses it in most ways. However, it still has a good role in the current metagame as a bulky physical wall and hazard stacker.

 

[Larrycharizard1]

I would like to nominate murkrow for a viability ranking. Here is a sample set:

Murkrow @ Focus Sash
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 4 SpD / 248 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 SpA
- Thunder Wave
- Defog
- Foul Play
- Haze

Murkrows primary goal is to thunder wave sweepers like zacian and koraidon, effectively removing them from play. It is immune to all hazards except stealth rock, letting it preserve sash and not be slowed by sticky web, which makes it a great hazard clearer. Haze lets it override win conditions like xerneas and ultra necrozma. It will always outspeed groudon, and while the exact damage varies on set, foul play is usually a3-4HKO. Acssuming sash is intact, this lets it consistently do over half P-groudons HP, putting it into range to be revenge killed by a sweeper of choice, while preserving more valuable game pieces. To cover its matchups (S+ to B-):
-Primal Groudon: Can switch into precipice blades and do over half its health as previously stated+
-Koraidon: Can thunder wave it, making it effectively useless+
-Arceus Ground: Can haze if it tries to calm mind, otherwise useless unless they run a physical set for some reason-
-Dusk-Mane-Necrozma: Foul play hits it decently hard and it will always outspeed+
-Ho-oh: If its offensive, foul play will annoy it, otherwise it can still paralyze it, but ho-oh probably won't notice-
-Eternatus: Can paralyze it, which eternatus cares a moderate amount about+
-Zygarde-C: Can get rid of its buffs+
-Xerneas: Obviously hates haze+
-Zacian-C: Can paralyze it, which unlike koraidon, does not make it useless because it has bulk, but still significantly decreases its usefulness+
-Arceus Dark: See Arceus Ground-
-Mega Salamence: Can paralyze it and get rid of its buffs if it d dances, or use foul play to hit it back for hefty damage+
-Arceus Fairy: Can paralyze it and remove its buffs, which is basically just a mild inconvenience to it-
-Arceus: Assuming it isn't running cosmic power, can paralyze it, remove its buffs, foul play for big damage, and tera to avoid extreme speed (but why would you tera your murkrow?)+
-Primal Kyogre: Paralyze, haze its calm mind buffs, foul play because it has a high attack stat even if it doesn't use it.=
-Arceus Water: See arceus-fairy, although its foul play does more damage-
-Giratina Origin: Paralyze, foul play, shadow sneak is annoying but it resists it+
-Yveltal: Pain- - - - -
-Ultra Necrozma: Haze removes buffs, t-wave cripples it, it's weak to foul play, great matchup+
-Mega Mewtwo Y: Paralyze, super effective foul play against a decent attack stat+
-Deoxys Speed: Paralyze, foul play, defog to counter hazards, oh crap it used magic coat=
-Marshadow: Haze, foul play, thunder wave, you know the drill, watch out for shadow sneak+
-Deoxys Attack: Mega mewtwo y but it may be physical+
-Arceus Ghost: Take normal arceus, give it a weakness to foul play, and youve got a free kill+
-Ferrothorn: Why are you using murkrow against ferrothorn-
-Flutter mane: Paralyze it, haze if it did calm mind+
-Grimsnarl: While murkrow cant do anything to grimsnarl, the opposite may also be true if it didn't bring an attack. So you can switch into grimsnarls parting shot and block its switch. Then, because it now has no choice but to switch out manually, defog and get rid of its screens.=
-Lunala: Quad weak to foul play, can be paralyzed, good matchup if you've dealt with shadow shield+
-Palkia Origin: Paralyze it=
-Rayquaza: Same procedure as normal arceus+
-Calyrex Ice: Foul play, haze, or thunder wave depending on which would be more appropriate for the situation+
-Pheromosa: Once its speed is halved, it is useless. Triple axel will probably break your sash, but trading a murkrow for a pheromosa is great.+
-Smeargle: Para or haze. Alternatively, switch in murkrow on spore so sleep is wasted on it.=
-Zekrom: Foul play or haze+
Arceus Flying, Poison, Steel: What do these guys even do. I think I've seen two arceus poison and one arceus steel in my entire time playing ubers.
-Dialga: Thunder wave=
-Ditto: As neutral of a matchup as it gets. But this means that the foe can safely break your sash.-
-Giratina: Foul play+
-Magearna: Thunder wave, haze+
-Mega Diancie: Pain- - - - - - -
-Mega Mewtwo X: Standard procedure+
Positive matchups:24, Negative matchups:8, Neutral Matchups:6, Unknown:3
Overall, murkrow provides fantastic utility, solving a lot of problems in a concise way, while having great matchups against many of ubers biggest threats. While niche, I believe its contributions are enough to earn it a place in ubers.
Video evidence:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-1858939052
(what was that marshadow doing?)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-1854835912
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-1840984036
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-1840046417
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-1858948700-tja3a7ypcxtyzq2oniuohlvsu4h2j8vpw

While I agree murkrow is decent, stealth rocks are very common in Ubers, which can break its sash quite easily. to add to it, murkrow isn't very fast and is also very frail, so many pokemon could easily kill it. It could help against something such as zygarde or xerneas to clear the stat boosts away, but something else like roar groudon-p or marshadow, or a simple taunt could stop those all together without having to waste a team slot on a pokemon that is useless unless the opponent for some reason can't kill murkrow after a t-wave. its decent but everything it does can be done better. Paralyzing is better spread by lugia or necrozma-dusk-mane, who also have other reasons to be used as well. Many others like ho-oh can defog. in fact, ho-oh covers the defog and the paralysis role better. I guess the haze thing is unique to murkrow, but it wont take a thousand arrows very well, can't break zygardes sub... etc.

 

[vesp]

Skarmory also is a semi-reliable check to pokemon such as zacian unless it has wild charge, and most trick room mons

No zacian is free of wild charge, and trick room is niche.

+2 252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 117-138 (35 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 117-138 (35 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Tera Ghost Arceus Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 175-208 (52.3 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Additionally these calcs noticeably exclude those of necrozma ultra and it's z move, you put NDM twice, even though NDM has a lower attack than ultra necrozma.
C+ to B is 2-4 full ranks ahead of its previous placement and it only really checks like 3-4 mons and learns a move that primal groudon has anyways

 

[Larrycharizard1]

No zacian is free of wild charge, and trick room is niche.

Additionally these calcs noticeably exclude those of necrozma ultra and it's z move, you put NDM twice, even though NDM has a lower attack than ultra necrozma.
C+ to B is 2-4 full ranks ahead of its previous placement and it only really checks like 3-4 mons and learns a move that primal groudon has anyways

Yeah I did put that twice xD
In my experience Skarmory is a pretty good mon. Maybe such a jump would be too much. And It is entirely outclassed by necrozma dusk mane.
also, sunsteel strike has stab on necrozma dm so it did more dmg (correct me if im wrong)

 

[Larrycharizard1]

I would like to nominate murkrow for a viability ranking. Here is a sample set:

Murkrow @ Focus Sash
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 4 SpD / 248 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 SpA
- Thunder Wave
- Defog
- Foul Play
- Haze

Murkrows primary goal is to thunder wave sweepers like zacian and koraidon, effectively removing them from play. It is immune to all hazards except stealth rock, letting it preserve sash and not be slowed by sticky web, which makes it a great hazard clearer. Haze lets it override win conditions like xerneas and ultra necrozma. It will always outspeed groudon, and while the exact damage varies on set, foul play is usually a3-4HKO. Acssuming sash is intact, this lets it consistently do over half P-groudons HP, putting it into range to be revenge killed by a sweeper of choice, while preserving more valuable game pieces. To cover its matchups (S+ to B-):
-Primal Groudon: Can switch into precipice blades and do over half its health as previously stated+
-Koraidon: Can thunder wave it, making it effectively useless+
-Arceus Ground: Can haze if it tries to calm mind, otherwise useless unless they run a physical set for some reason-
-Dusk-Mane-Necrozma: Foul play hits it decently hard and it will always outspeed+
-Ho-oh: If its offensive, foul play will annoy it, otherwise it can still paralyze it, but ho-oh probably won't notice-
-Eternatus: Can paralyze it, which eternatus cares a moderate amount about+
-Zygarde-C: Can get rid of its buffs+
-Xerneas: Obviously hates haze+
-Zacian-C: Can paralyze it, which unlike koraidon, does not make it useless because it has bulk, but still significantly decreases its usefulness+
-Arceus Dark: See Arceus Ground-
-Mega Salamence: Can paralyze it and get rid of its buffs if it d dances, or use foul play to hit it back for hefty damage+
-Arceus Fairy: Can paralyze it and remove its buffs, which is basically just a mild inconvenience to it-
-Arceus: Assuming it isn't running cosmic power, can paralyze it, remove its buffs, foul play for big damage, and tera to avoid extreme speed (but why would you tera your murkrow?)+
-Primal Kyogre: Paralyze, haze its calm mind buffs, foul play because it has a high attack stat even if it doesn't use it.=
-Arceus Water: See arceus-fairy, although its foul play does more damage-
-Giratina Origin: Paralyze, foul play, shadow sneak is annoying but it resists it+
-Yveltal: Pain- - - - -
-Ultra Necrozma: Haze removes buffs, t-wave cripples it, it's weak to foul play, great matchup+
-Mega Mewtwo Y: Paralyze, super effective foul play against a decent attack stat+
-Deoxys Speed: Paralyze, foul play, defog to counter hazards, oh crap it used magic coat=
-Marshadow: Haze, foul play, thunder wave, you know the drill, watch out for shadow sneak+
-Deoxys Attack: Mega mewtwo y but it may be physical+
-Arceus Ghost: Take normal arceus, give it a weakness to foul play, and youve got a free kill+
-Ferrothorn: Why are you using murkrow against ferrothorn-
-Flutter mane: Paralyze it, haze if it did calm mind+
-Grimsnarl: While murkrow cant do anything to grimsnarl, the opposite may also be true if it didn't bring an attack. So you can switch into grimsnarls parting shot and block its switch. Then, because it now has no choice but to switch out manually, defog and get rid of its screens.=
-Lunala: Quad weak to foul play, can be paralyzed, good matchup if you've dealt with shadow shield+
-Palkia Origin: Paralyze it=
-Rayquaza: Same procedure as normal arceus+
-Calyrex Ice: Foul play, haze, or thunder wave depending on which would be more appropriate for the situation+
-Pheromosa: Once its speed is halved, it is useless. Triple axel will probably break your sash, but trading a murkrow for a pheromosa is great.+
-Smeargle: Para or haze. Alternatively, switch in murkrow on spore so sleep is wasted on it.=
-Zekrom: Foul play or haze+
Arceus Flying, Poison, Steel: What do these guys even do. I think I've seen two arceus poison and one arceus steel in my entire time playing ubers.
-Dialga: Thunder wave=
-Ditto: As neutral of a matchup as it gets. But this means that the foe can safely break your sash.-
-Giratina: Foul play+
-Magearna: Thunder wave, haze+
-Mega Diancie: Pain- - - - - - -
-Mega Mewtwo X: Standard procedure+
Positive matchups:24, Negative matchups:8, Neutral Matchups:6, Unknown:3
Overall, murkrow provides fantastic utility, solving a lot of problems in a concise way, while having great matchups against many of ubers biggest threats. While niche, I believe its contributions are enough to earn it a place in ubers.

the main apeal is that prankster means it can do at least one thing always. and it dosent matter if it dies to a zacian, because after it paralyzed it, it is essentially already dead. any interaaction where you can trade a murkrow for an ubers mon is a good interaction, and thats something murkrow can do consistantly. and while stealth rocks are probobly the most common hazards in ubers, ubers isnt very hazard focused. and as long as it can paralyze a sweeper, its pulling its own weight.
that said, if you go up against a stall team, murkrows more useless than shedinja's defence stat.
Video evidence:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-1858939052
(what was that marshadow doing?)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-1854835912
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-1840984036
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-1840046417
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-1858948700-tja3a7ypcxtyzq2oniuohlvsu4h2j8vpw

but wouldnt u rather ko a ubers mon and still have a mon? and i mean like actually KO, not paralise, since a paralised mon can still do something.

 

[Cancel cult]

No zacian is free of wild charge

no, plenty zacian dont run wild charge. behemoth blade is a given, and play rough is also almost universal. close combat is a great coverage option that is frequently used. wild charge is probably the fourth most used move slot, but its got competition. swords dance and tera blast are common, and i can only assume there are a few who run ice fang. psychic fangs, crunch, poison jab, and if your really crazy, fire fang and dig, are also coverage options. so no, zaciens dont always run wild charge.

Most arceus I have seen don't run shadow force. (Just my experience) And I just want to mention if such a scenario were to arrise skarmory would most likely just tera to tank the hit, or if it cant tera:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Tera Ghost Arceus Shadow Force vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 300-355 (89.8 - 106.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
But that argument is kinda pointless as this calc exists as well:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Tera Ghost Arceus Shadow Force vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 482-569 (121.1 - 142.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
However, I don't even see many Arceus using life orb and most run tera normal. I just pushed the damage to a high amount in that calculation to show you that skarmory is pretty tanky.
But you are right it does just drop if its shadow force, but to be honest practically everything would at that point.
Photon geyser on necrozma-Ultra has literally 10 more attack, and its still ressisted as u said, but here is the calc just to qualify:
+2 252+ Atk Necrozma-Ultra Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 123-145 (36.8 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Necrozma-Ultra Light That Burns the Sky vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 246-289 (73.6 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Honestly, I don't see the point of arguing over it as its whatever fits your playstyle. But yes, I know necrozma-DM would take the Z-move better, (obviously) but there ain't a necrozma in this world that doesnt run EQ.

mine does. because what non normal type will switch in on it. arceus normal is like the only consistant threat to it.

trick room is niche.

trick room, i would say, is on the border between niche and viable strategy. gen 9 natdex ubers is one of the most HO centric metas out their, and calyrex-ice is teryfying, OHKOs almost anything after a boost, and can survive almost anything from full HP, while the only common walls that resist it are arceus water and ndm, which arent true walls. unprepared teams can be decimated by trick room, and if your team cant reliably deal with it, its probobly not viable. that said, the best mon in the game loves trick room, and once calyrex is out of the picture, assuming you still have an answer to melmetal, you have basically already won. trick room in this meta is something you genuinely have to watch out for when building a team.
also larry and nap00, try condensing your posts as much as possible.

 

[Larrycharizard1]

no, plenty zacian dont run wild charge. behemoth blade is a given, and play rough is also almost universal. close combat is a great coverage option that is frequently used. wild charge is probably the fourth most used move slot, but its got competition. swords dance and tera blast are common, and i can only assume there are a few who run ice fang. psychic fangs, crunch, poison jab, and if your really crazy, fire fang and dig, are also coverage options. so no, zaciens dont always run wild charge.

I agree. In my experience only 1/3 zacians run wild charge

 

[vesp]

sunsteel strike has stab on necrozma dm so it did more dmg (correct me if im wrong

Photon geyser is just as high BP and also resisted.

no, plenty zacian dont run wild charge. behemoth blade is a given, and play rough is also almost universal. close combat is a great coverage option that is frequently used. wild charge is probably the fourth most used move slot, but its got competition. swords dance and tera blast are common, and i can only assume there are a few who run ice fang. psychic fangs, crunch, poison jab, and if your really crazy, fire fang and dig, are also coverage options. so no, zaciens dont always run wild charge.
also larry, try condensing your posts as much as possible.

In high ladder I've almost never seen a deviation from wild charge because it provides so much value hitting ho-oh and play rough is IN MY EXPERIENCE pretty worthless as it's just worse than behemoth blade as it's resisted by the exact same types as steel and you're not really getting anything from fairy because most Koraidon are scarfed. Wild charge on the other hand hits kyogre as well as wild charge and when combined with cc coverage nothing in the format resists your coverage + stab

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Tera Ghost Arceus Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 175-208 (52.3 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

What if it's shadow force? Do you just die?

 

[Larrycharizard1]

Most arceus I have seen don't run shadow force. (Just my experience) And I just want to mention if such a scenario were to arrise skarmory would most likely just tera to tank the hit, or if it cant tera:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Tera Ghost Arceus Shadow Force vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 300-355 (89.8 - 106.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
But that argument is kinda pointless as this calc exists as well:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Tera Ghost Arceus Shadow Force vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 482-569 (121.1 - 142.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
However, I don't even see many Arceus using life orb and most run tera normal. I just pushed the damage to a high amount in that calculation to show you that skarmory is pretty tanky.
But you are right it does just drop if its shadow force, but to be honest practically everything would at that point.
Photon geyser on necrozma-Ultra has literally 10 more attack, and its still ressisted as u said, but here is the calc just to qualify:
+2 252+ Atk Necrozma-Ultra Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 123-145 (36.8 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Necrozma-Ultra Light That Burns the Sky vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 246-289 (73.6 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Honestly, I don't see the point of arguing over it as its whatever fits your playstyle. But yes, I know necrozma-DM would take the Z-move better, (obviously) but there ain't a necrozma in this world that doesnt run EQ.

 

[vesp]

+2 252+ Atk Necrozma-Ultra Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 123-145 (36.8 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ Atk Necrozma-Ultra Light That Burns the Sky vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 246-289 (73.6 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

My point here was it'll cleanly 2hko you, or with a moderate amount of chip, just straight kill you

most run tera normal.

Most every high ladder E-killer runs ghost cause of the noticeably better matchups, with rock support you can Tera to beat marshadow and Tera Ghost prevents ditto from revenge killing you not to mention the perfect Type overlap.
My arceus doesn't run Orb though cause I like lefties or lum depending on whether or not I have a SD Koraidon. But being left on 1hp is still a W for e killer especially since you'll need to come in after something dies.

mine does. because what non normal type will switch in on it. arceus normal is like the only consistant threat to it.

Mine too it's the best Tera Type overall

 

[Pikaslayer2022]

Arceus-Dark A+2-> A+5
Arceus Dark isn't nearly as good of a form as Arceus-Fairy, because of it's inability to wall Koraidon and Xern, although able to wall NDM better than Arceus-Fairy. Arceus Dark can't even wall specific offensive NDM, especially after a swords dance
(+2 252 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Searing Sunraze Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Dark: 525-618 (107.4 - 126.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO)
And although it can kill necrozma with judgment in 2 hits, if NDM is max speed, arceus can't prevent SD.
(0 SpA Arceus-Dark Judgment vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 211-249 (62.9 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO).

While I do agree with arceus dark being ranked quite high is a tiny bit strange, I do not think this should be the reasoning for why it should be lowered. As the only arceus dark set that would use judgement is the perish trapper (which I personally do not see a lot). Most of the arceus dark forms run foul play as their dark stab to deter physical attackers and can use tera to its advantage to wall more Pokémon. Also max speed necrozma-dusk-mane only reaches 278 with a jolly nature and standard defensive arceus forms run enough speed to outrun max speed primal groudon.
Max Speed primal groudon reaches 306 with jolly
Defensive Arceus variants run 124 speed to reach 307.

 

[Larrycharizard1]

Grimmsnarl and Klefki both learn T-Wave and Klefki also has defog. If Klefki isn't ranked, neither should Murkrow

Agreed. Klefki can defog, set spikes, setup screens, para, and even halt the mighty xerneas with dual screens and para. Grimmsnarl has a pivoting option and can set screens. Murkrow really isnt worth a slot, while those games did show murkrow's use, I belive that in most scenarios murkrow would end up being kinda deadweight as, ok it can para koraidon but it can't switch into it, and to add to that most people would expect a t-wave and go to someone like groudon who can take it or someone who doesnt care about it and easily OHKO murkrow, or 2hko bc sash

 

[vesp]

While I do agree with arceus dark being ranked quite high is a tiny bit strange, I do not think this should be the reasoning for why it should be lowered. As the only arceus dark set that would use judgement is the perish trapper (which I personally do not see a lot). Most of the arceus dark forms run foul play as their dark stab to deter physical attackers and can use tera to its advantage to wall more Pokémon. Also max speed necrozma-dusk-mane only reaches 278 with a jolly nature and standard defensive arceus forms run enough speed to outrun max speed primal groudon.
Max Speed primal groudon reaches 306 with jolly
Defensive Arceus variants run 124 speed to reach 307.

Yeah, I agree it's ranking is dumb I've even seen the tier leaders talk about how weird it's spot is idk if that point is worth speaking on over the fact that something only checking 1 mon isn't worth top of A+ and this seems like an unnecessary point over the lack of value over Arceus-Fairy and the lack of real information on why it's not an NDM check is unnecessary and deminished the argument

 

[Smurfing Surfer]

While I do agree with arceus dark being ranked quite high is a tiny bit strange, I do not think this should be the reasoning for why it should be lowered. As the only arceus dark set that would use judgement is the perish trapper (which I personally do not see a lot). Most of the arceus dark forms run foul play as their dark stab to deter physical attackers and can use tera to its advantage to wall more Pokémon. Also max speed necrozma-dusk-mane only reaches 278 with a jolly nature and standard defensive arceus forms run enough speed to outrun max speed primal groudon.
Max Speed primal groudon reaches 306 with jolly
Defensive Arceus variants run 124 speed to reach 307.

Yeah in retrospect it's a bad example but still I think it's ranking is bad, its just so bad into this meta. Stab foul play shouldn't make it the 2nd most viable arceus

 

[Cancel cult]

guys, seriously. condence your posts.

 

[Smurfing Surfer]

While I do agree with arceus dark being ranked quite high is a tiny bit strange, I do not think this should be the reasoning for why it should be lowered. As the only arceus dark set that would use judgement is the perish trapper (which I personally do not see a lot). Most of the arceus dark forms run foul play as their dark stab to deter physical attackers and can use tera to its advantage to wall more Pokémon. Also max speed necrozma-dusk-mane only reaches 278 with a jolly nature and standard defensive arceus forms run enough speed to outrun max speed primal groudon.
Max Speed primal groudon reaches 306 with jolly
Defensive Arceus variants run 124 speed to reach 307.

Yeah in retrospect it's a bad example but still I think it's ranking is bad, its just so bad into this meta. Stab foul play shouldn't make it the 2nd most viable arceus

I would like to nominate murkrow for a viability ranking. Here is a sample set:

Murkrow @ Focus Sash
Ability: Prankster
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 4 SpD / 248 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 0 SpA
- Thunder Wave
- Defog
- Foul Play
- Haze

Murkrows primary goal is to thunder wave sweepers like zacian and koraidon, effectively removing them from play. It is immune to all hazards except stealth rock, letting it preserve sash and not be slowed by sticky web, which makes it a great hazard clearer. Haze lets it override win conditions like xerneas and ultra necrozma. It will always outspeed groudon, and while the exact damage varies on set, foul play is usually a3-4HKO. Acssuming sash is intact, this lets it consistently do over half P-groudons HP, putting it into range to be revenge killed by a sweeper of choice, while preserving more valuable game pieces. To cover its matchups (S+ to B-):
-Primal Groudon: Can switch into precipice blades and do over half its health as previously stated+
-Koraidon: Can thunder wave it, making it effectively useless+
-Arceus Ground: Can haze if it tries to calm mind, otherwise useless unless they run a physical set for some reason-
-Dusk-Mane-Necrozma: Foul play hits it decently hard and it will always outspeed+
-Ho-oh: If its offensive, foul play will annoy it, otherwise it can still paralyze it, but ho-oh probably won't notice-
-Eternatus: Can paralyze it, which eternatus cares a moderate amount about+
-Zygarde-C: Can get rid of its buffs+
-Xerneas: Obviously hates haze+
-Zacian-C: Can paralyze it, which unlike koraidon, does not make it useless because it has bulk, but still significantly decreases its usefulness+
-Arceus Dark: See Arceus Ground-
-Mega Salamence: Can paralyze it and get rid of its buffs if it d dances, or use foul play to hit it back for hefty damage+
-Arceus Fairy: Can paralyze it and remove its buffs, which is basically just a mild inconvenience to it-
-Arceus: Assuming it isn't running cosmic power, can paralyze it, remove its buffs, foul play for big damage, and tera to avoid extreme speed (but why would you tera your murkrow?)+
-Primal Kyogre: Paralyze, haze its calm mind buffs, foul play because it has a high attack stat even if it doesn't use it.=
-Arceus Water: See arceus-fairy, although its foul play does more damage-
-Giratina Origin: Paralyze, foul play, shadow sneak is annoying but it resists it+
-Yveltal: Pain- - - - -
-Ultra Necrozma: Haze removes buffs, t-wave cripples it, it's weak to foul play, great matchup+
-Mega Mewtwo Y: Paralyze, super effective foul play against a decent attack stat+
-Deoxys Speed: Paralyze, foul play, defog to counter hazards, oh crap it used magic coat=
-Marshadow: Haze, foul play, thunder wave, you know the drill, watch out for shadow sneak+
-Deoxys Attack: Mega mewtwo y but it may be physical+
-Arceus Ghost: Take normal arceus, give it a weakness to foul play, and youve got a free kill+
-Ferrothorn: Why are you using murkrow against ferrothorn-
-Flutter mane: Paralyze it, haze if it did calm mind+
-Grimsnarl: While murkrow cant do anything to grimsnarl, the opposite may also be true if it didn't bring an attack. So you can switch into grimsnarls parting shot and block its switch. Then, because it now has no choice but to switch out manually, defog and get rid of its screens.=
-Lunala: Quad weak to foul play, can be paralyzed, good matchup if you've dealt with shadow shield+
-Palkia Origin: Paralyze it=
-Rayquaza: Same procedure as normal arceus+
-Calyrex Ice: Foul play, haze, or thunder wave depending on which would be more appropriate for the situation+
-Pheromosa: Once its speed is halved, it is useless. Triple axel will probably break your sash, but trading a murkrow for a pheromosa is great.+
-Smeargle: Para or haze. Alternatively, switch in murkrow on spore so sleep is wasted on it.=
-Zekrom: Foul play or haze+
Arceus Flying, Poison, Steel: What do these guys even do. I think I've seen two arceus poison and one arceus steel in my entire time playing ubers.
-Dialga: Thunder wave=
-Ditto: As neutral of a matchup as it gets. But this means that the foe can safely break your sash.-
-Giratina: Foul play+
-Magearna: Thunder wave, haze+
-Mega Diancie: Pain- - - - - - -
-Mega Mewtwo X: Standard procedure+
Positive matchups:24, Negative matchups:8, Neutral Matchups:6, Unknown:3
Overall, murkrow provides fantastic utility, solving a lot of problems in a concise way, while having great matchups against many of ubers biggest threats. While niche, I believe its contributions are enough to earn it a place in ubers.
the main apeal is that prankster means it can do at least one thing always. and it dosent matter if it dies to a zacian, because after it paralyzed it, it is essentially already dead. any interaaction where you can trade a murkrow for an ubers mon is a good interaction, and thats something murkrow can do consistantly. and while stealth rocks are probobly the most common hazards in ubers, ubers isnt very hazard focused. and as long as it can paralyze a sweeper, its pulling its own weight.
that said, if you go up against a stall team, murkrows more useless than shedinja's defence stat.
at least its better than houndstone.
murkrow has a better matchup against P-groudon, is faster, is immune to spikes/toxic spikes/sticky web, can switch in on precipice blades, has stab on foul play, and haze.
If they switch in groudon into murkrow, thats great for you. you can then do over half groudons hp, leaving it in range to be killed by other mon. sacrificing a mon to be able to revenge kill the best mon in the game is very worth it, especialy since ubers dosent have that many mons that want to switch into attacks. and murkrow has gotten me into the top 100, so either murkrow is a valid option, or i am a god gamer. either way, thats a w for me.
yes, but just paralyzing zacian and koraidon leave them vulnerable to me revenge killed by basically everything. and while it would be ideal to keep a mon alive, it can trade with a large portion of the ubers roster, including the best mon in the game.
Video evidence:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-1858939052
(what was that marshadow doing?)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-1854835912
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-1840984036
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-1840046417
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-1858948700-tja3a7ypcxtyzq2oniuohlvsu4h2j8vpw

guys, seriously. condence your posts

this is 16528 characters, 2809 words, on how murkrow should be ranked because it has prankster thunder wave, the least special thing ever, and you have the gall to tell us to trim down OUR posts.

i meant condence all your posts into one. not including these two, i only have two posts on this thread, one being my essay on the crow, and the other being my replies to you guys. instead of creating a new post every time i want to reply to you, i add my replies to one of my old posts.

I don't think it gives an alert if you make an edit.

 

[Cancel cult]

this is 16528 characters, 2809 words, on how murkrow should be ranked because it has prankster thunder wave, the least special thing ever, and you have the gall to tell us to trim down OUR posts.

i meant condence all your posts into one. not including these two, i only have two posts on this thread, one being my essay on the crow, and the other being my replies to you guys. instead of creating a new post every time i want to reply to you, i add my replies to one of my old posts.

Yeah in retrospect it's a bad example but still I think it's ranking is bad, its just so bad into this meta. Stab foul play shouldn't make it the 2nd most viable arceus


this is 16528 characters, 2809 words, on how murkrow should be ranked because it has prankster thunder wave, the least special thing ever, and you have the gall to tell us to trim down OUR posts.

I don't think it gives an alert if you make an edit.

thats fair.

 

[Smurfing Surfer]

i meant condence all your posts into one. not including these two, i only have two posts on this thread, one being my essay on the crow, and the other being my replies to you guys. instead of creating a new post every time i want to reply to you, i add my replies to one of my old posts.

thats fair.

yeah i didn't get an alert when you did that edit, sorry for being mean abt your murkrow post.

 

[Runo]

I have some stuff that's been on my mind since NDUbers Ghosting Tour

S- (3) -> S (3, Above NDM)
This mon with Tera is dumb af. I love it when my Zygarde check is lured and trapped by one of 3 possible Tera types and then turned into setup fodder. The counterplay to Tera Trapper Zygarde is basically Tera Grass Ho-Oh and hope you didn't burn your Tera on something else. It's because of this that I believe that Zygarde is one of the most consistent setup sweepers in the metagame. Defensive Zygarde is also great too, being able to cripple every good mon in the tier with Glare, phaze them with Dragon Tail, or scale with them using Coil.

S- (2) -> S- (1, Above Ho-Oh)
Tkiller Eternatus sets continue to offer valuable role compression and team support, assisting a plethora of wallbreakers like Koraidon in breaking down teams. It also doesn't let setup sweepers like Xerneas and Zygarde in for free or let them setup for the most part. It being able to counter Tera in order to lure tons of sweepers is also big. A small rise seems deserved.

A (1) -> A+ (2, Above Arceus-Dark)
Primal Kyogre is an invaluable piece of the meta thanks to how easily it can pressure common threats like Zacian-Crowned, Necrozma Dusk Mane, Primal Groudon, and Koraidon. Defensive and Offensive Calm Mind variants are very strong win-conditions and great at handling large swaths of the meta despite it's middling speed.

B- -> B+
HO and setup sweepers as a whole are very strong right now, so Ditto can take advantage of that far better than any other Pokemon. Koraidon, Arceus forms, Necrozma, Xerneas, etc are all dissuaded from setting up solely by seeing Ditto on preview. B- is almost a disservice because of how often this mon can get on the field and make progress against the opponents team. In my opinion, you need to consider this mon in the builder when playing Ubers or your team is simply not optimal.

C+ -> B-, C+ -> B-
Teams from experience have gradually gotten bulkier in an attempt to combat the onslaught of offensive threats, and Gothitelle and Kyurem-Black are good at abusing those fat teams. They can also simply use Tera to remove their poor matchups, so a small rise seems warranted.

S (3) -> S- (5, Below Xerneas) / A+ (1, Above Zacian-Crowned)
As it stands, the metagame is very hostile to Necrozma Dusk Mane and Tera only make this issue worse for it. All of the S rank threats are able to pressure it in some shape or form: Koraidon setting up on it easily or dealing big damage with Choice Band, Pdon forcing it out with Precipice Blades or again setting up, Zygarde trapping it and turning it into setup bait, Arceus Ground setting up on it, Ho-Oh dealing heavy damage and burning it potentially with Sacred Fire, Offensive Eternatus being able to hit it with Flamethrower, and Xerneas being able to turn it into setup bait with Tera Electric. NDM is becoming more of a liability.

B+ -> B
Lunala is kinda falling into irrelevancy. Receiving incredibly poor usage in Ghosting Tour due to competition with Flutter Mane, Arceus-Ghost, Marshadow, and Deoxys-Attack. Its flaws are very noticeable, with it struggling more against a multitude of threats such as Arceus-Normal with Shadow Claw/Force, Arceus-Dark, Calm Mind Arceus Ground, Marshadow, and Yveltal. Offensive sets also hate Tera being a thing, since mons like Koraidon, or Zygarde can just Tera out of their bad matchups and setup on Lunala.

Also Koraidon is dumb as hell and idt i'm the only person to think this, please take action on it, also King's Rock and Bright Powder are legal iirc, idk if that was an oversight or intentional.

 

[Smurfing Surfer]

Also Koraidon is dumb as hell and idt i'm the only person to think this, please take action on it, also King's Rock and Bright Powder are legal iirc, idk if that was an oversight or intentional.

yeah it needs a suspect, the only thing I'm scared of is that stall is already common in the tier and I like the HO meta.

This mon with Tera is dumb af. I love it when my Zygarde check is lured and trapped by one of 3 possible Tera types and then turned into setup fodder. The counterplay to Tera Trapper Zygarde is basically Tera Grass Ho-Oh and hope you didn't burn your Tera on something else. It's because of this that I believe that Zygarde is one of the most consistent setup sweepers in the metagame. Defensive Zygarde is also great too, being able to cripple every good mon in the tier with Glare, phaze them with Dragon Tail, or scale with them using Coil.

Honestly I think that tera needs a ban because koraidon would be way weaker w/o tera fire flare blitz for fairies and zygarde-c is just overpowered and a tera ban would fix the stall issue. I know stall is bad in the meta but I don't think anyone wants a stall meta.

 

[Miss_Catherine]

Not sure why Deo-A is in A- but things like Giratina-O and Primal Kyogre are in A. Is it the lack of defensive utility on it compared to the other options that outweighs its fantastic mixed damage potential, and ripping apart most of the metagame with some form of psycho boost?

 

[Zrp200]

Not sure why Deo-A is in A- but things like Giratina-O and Primal Kyogre are in A. Is it the lack of defensive utility on it compared to the other options that outweighs its fantastic mixed damage potential, and ripping apart most of the metagame with some form of psycho boost?

The answer is Tera. Deoxys-A absolutely loves the fact that Tera can give it immunities (the only possible way it's ever going to take a hit), and it also loves the fact that it powers up its otherwise weak coverage.

Tera Ghost gives Deoxys-A gives it immunities to Normal and Fighting, which not only gives an extremely handy immunity to Extreme Speed but also but gives it STAB Shadow Ball to give it perfect coverage between Psycho Boost, Shadow Ball, and Superpower/Low Kick.

So, it turns out that letting Deoxys-A actually attack causes it to beat a lot of things. In this case, that Extreme Speed immunity lets Deoxys-A check the stupidly common Extreme Killer Arceus, considering that Psycho Boost does 80+ and one of Deoxys-A's coverage moves is always going to be supereffective against it. The same immunity can let it do other fun things like 1v1 Ditto if you have Extreme Speed yourself as well as any odd Extreme Speed user that you end up fighting (looking at you Rayquaza). The Fighting immunity is less useful, but it can allow Deoxys-A to Tera to hard-punish choiced Koraidon for locking into Fighting coverage.
Not only that, but having access to 120 BP Ghost coverage actually goes really far. The additional power from Shadow Ball lets Deoxys-A consistently OHKO Mewtwo-Mega-Y, Ultra Necrozma, and Flutter Mane with it (while giving it extremely strong play against even a lightly chipped Necrozma-Dusk-Mane (0/0 has a chance to get OHKOed after hazards!) and giving an alarming amount of 2HKOes especially after hazards. It also has an extremely high chance to combo into Psycho Boost to KO Ho-Oh from full, which can force lethal mind games after Ho-Oh switches into Shadow Ball.

That's not to mention the occasional Tera Normal Deoxys-A running around, which boasts the ability to completely invalidate a Marshadow's revenge killing attempts as well as providing the strongest unboosted Extreme Speed in the tier (Tera Normal Deoxys-A's Extreme Speed hits a bit harder than Tera Normal Arceus's) to make offense cry. It's a lot more matchup-reliant given the immunity to Ghost is not nearly as handy as the immunities to Fighting and Normal and the fact it leaves Deoxys-A walled out by Necrozma-DM, but it's seen very solid results nevertheless.

Additionally, Deoxys-A is just very well equipped to deal with the current metagame. The 150 speed is extremely useful, letting it edge out unboosted Koraidon and Flutter Mane (both of which are deleted by Psycho Boost) as well as revenge kill basically any other unboosted threat. Outspeeding Zacian-C is also very handy even if Deoxys-A can't OHKO it.
Ultimately, there is nothing that can consistently switch into a skilled Deoxys-A user. Access to Rock Slide can be a very lethal surprise to Ho-Oh, the superglue that keeps many teams together right now (Deoxys-A has some trouble breaking through it otherwise). Extreme Speed as previously stated pairs extremely well with Tera Ghost to allow Deoxys-A to basically guarentee that its priority will go first (considering its speed) and becomes an absolute wrecking ball of a priority move if used with Tera Normal. That's not even mentioning the common Ice Beam to demolish common threats like Zygarde and Yveltal.

The main problem with Deoxys-A is its nonexistent bulk, which makes every prediction with it hugely important and makes it extremely hit or miss. But the upsides are just so absurd that we as a community have raised it basically every slate, to the point that it's now A-.

The inconsistency overall is a really big downside. Deoxys-A will never be a consistent team player regardless of Tera mechanics or otherwise. Psycho Boost has a 10% chance to whiff (which is almost always followed by a Deoxys-Attack OHKO). Deoxys-A is still often put into situations where it needs to use Psycho Boost, which can and will force it out at the expense of momentum (or just lead to its OHKO). Tera Ghost, which largely priority safe, is still invalidated by Marshadow and Shadow Sneak Giratina-O, the former of which is extremely common. All variants lose to Sucker Punch Yveltal (also rather common), with only Extreme Speed variants of Deoxys-A able to do anything meaningful against an already switched in Yveltal without risking a Sucker Punch OHKO.

 

[Larrycharizard1]

yeah it needs a suspect, the only thing I'm scared of is that stall is already common in the tier and I like the HO meta.

Honestly I think that tera needs a ban because koraidon would be way weaker w/o tera fire flare blitz for fairies and zygarde-c is just overpowered and a tera ban would fix the stall issue. I know stall is bad in the meta but I don't think anyone wants a stall meta.

Tera is definetly half the reason I think koraidon is so powerful. Many pokemon, such as xerneas or zygarde have their abilities improved to extreme levels due to it. And koraidon can't OHKO many diffrent pokemon without its tera fire/fighting, unless its choice band, which puts it at a disadvantage vs mons such as mewtwo-mega-y, zacian-c, deoxys-attack, and other koraidon. It also removes most of its potential as a revenge killer.

 

[vesp]

Tera is definetly half the reason I think koraidon is so powerful. Many pokemon, such as xerneas or zygarde have their abilities improved to extreme levels due to it. And koraidon can't OHKO many diffrent pokemon without its tera fire/fighting, unless its choice band, which puts it at a disadvantage vs mons such as mewtwo-mega-y, zacian-c, deoxys-attack, and other koraidon. It also removes most of its potential as a revenge killer.

Yeah totally, many of its threats are fixed the with Tera Fire and additionally it doesn't feel the down side of defensive tera (missing out on damage) thanks to it setting sun

 

[dtc09]

IT'S BASCULEGIN' TIME (nomming to C-)



Basculegion @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Adaptability
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Last Respects
- Wave Crash
- Aqua Jet
- Outrage (or really whatever you want this slot is useless)

basculegion's the biggest example of a situational cleaner that while in some matches does nothing it carries the win in some others. adaptability last respects hits really hard even without a boosting item, forcing you to have fat resists/normals to take it. all these calcs are for a 300 BP last respects (with every ally fainted):

252 Atk Adaptability Basculegion Last Respects vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Groudon-Primal: 390-460 (96.7 - 114.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Adaptability Basculegion Last Respects vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Arceus-Fairy: 374-442 (84.4 - 99.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

252 Atk Adaptability Basculegion Last Respects vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eternatus: 614-724 (126.8 - 149.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Adaptability Basculegion Last Respects vs. 248 HP / 208+ Def Ho-Oh: 472-556 (113.7 - 133.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Adaptability Basculegion Last Respects vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Yveltal: 341-402 (86.7 - 102.2%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

and so on. only viable mons that take last respects well are normalceus, darkceus, bulky yvel and garga (lol). as for revenge killing, it outruns the entire unboosted meta bar from zacc and deoa, plus there's scarfers and sucker yvel/sneak marsh. tera fairy solves part of that, tanking scarf koraidon (most common scarfer by far)'s dragon STAB, taking even a band tera ghost marsh sneak and a +1 zacc wild charge (play rough is a 43.8% to ko). this leaves deoa which admittedly can't be handled too easily, and yvel/the two arcs that wall it.

losing to two very common arcs sucks ass, though it can be exploited while teambuilding: overprepare for those two formes while being able to afford a bigger weakness to other formes as bascu clears teams with those. marshadow's a good partner on HO teams, for example.

bascu clean examples:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-1874702407

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9nationaldexubers-1876146624-27r9v2rm1g8yz9smkd7mie9yo4behs1pw