from what i see you're just mentioning a bunch of mons that get bullied by garga after a idef boost, bar from maybe zek but that also bullies dozo (especially because it bypasses unaware). and if you think salt cure isn't very good you haven't used it, that thing is sometimes stupidly spammable and gets absolutely free chip while annoying everything. though feel like we should just stop this debate and let the council decide
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Ubers National Dex Ubers Viability Rankings [Update: Post 38 & 42!]
- Thread starter Guard
- Start date
yep, but i don't like these pokemon, because i hate stalls lol. Gen 9 brings many strong pokemon and it is the reason many pokemon drop their ranks
To be fair, i highly doubt that dondozo will be viable in ubers whether it’s on stall or balance. Even though dondozo has been an amazing wall in normal OU, it really struggles with the power level in natdex ubers.
Due to the fact that Dondozo doesn’t have reliable recovery such as recover, it has to rely on rest to be able to stay healthy during the game. In OU, this isn’t a problem as it can switch in on many pokémon and burn a sleep turn whilst getting leftovers recovery, but in ubers, with the higher power level and bulk in the pokémons in the tier, Dondozos sleep turns becomes way more exploitable as nearly every pokémon can easily switch in on dondozo and threaten it out.
With Primal Groudon in the tier, this is way bigger of a problem than before, mostly due to hazards. Since Primal Groudon can setup spikes and stealth rocks on most pokémon in the tier, whenever Dondozo is threatened in it will take spikes and stealth rocks damage and whenever it gets forced to switch out, it’s teammates will also take the damage from stealth rocks and spikes.
Additionally, if you are running a stall team, unless you have Giratina Origin on your team, Dondozo will be forced to be your answer to offensive Primal Groudon due to its double stab combined with Stone edge/Rock slide/Rock tomb making it quite close to unwallable. And if the Groudon is defensive instead, it can easily get up 2-3 layers of spikes as dondozo can’t deal significant damage to it due to the heavy sun.
If dondozo decides to run heavy duty boots to counter this form of counter play against it, it lacks the leftovers recovery making it more exposable to spamming attacks such as Mega Mence’s return/frustration for example, forcing you to run specific attacking moves such as avalanche to deal with it.
252+ Atk Aerilate Salamence-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 156-184 (30.9 - 36.5%) -- 63.4% chance to 3HKO
Simply put, Dondozos lack of reliable recovery, exploitable weakness to hazards, stronger threats and lack of momentum makes it quite an unviable wall, even though it admittedly does got a niche in the meta.
Dondozo is not better than Primal Groudon and many staller pokemon in this format, Garganacl neither. I have never said Dondozo will be a huge problem in this format, it is only a good pokemon, so your cmt is not suitable, but tks for your opinion!
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I think Marshadow should be in higher, maybe in A-. Marshadow is one of the best Fighting Pokemon. According the index stats 2023-02, in elo 1k5, Marshdow even has a higher rates than Koraidon. Special Thief is a strong move can against many set up sweeper Pokemon such as Xerneas, Blaziken, Rayquaza, Zygarde, Arceus, Ultra Necrozma. Having Ghost type stab, Marshadow can cause pressure on Necrozma-DM, counter Extreme Killer Arceus. With Fighting type, Close Combat can OHKO Arceus Normal. Technician is a good ability, it can buff the stab priority move- Shadow Sneak. With Shadow Sneak, Marshadow can shut down some higher pokemon such as Koraidon, Zacian-C when they have low HP, OHKO Mega Mewtwo Y, Ultra Necrozma, Flutter Mane, all form of Deoxys (not Def). Technician also buff Rock Tomb, so that move will have 90 BP and always lower the target's speed by 1 stages. It will be a huge problem for Hooh and Yveltal, they cannot use Defog if Marshadow is in battle. In short, Marshadow has best type coverage, good stab, good movepool and abiltiy, so this mon should have a higher tier.
now that we are on the topic of marsh, there's a set that i would like to talk about:
Marshadow @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant / Jolly Nature
- Poltergeist
- Shadow Sneak
- Close Combat
- Ice Punch
the number of viable ghost resists/immunes are limited to 3: normal/darkceus and yveltal
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Marshadow Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 208+ Def Ho-Oh: 308-364 (74.2 - 87.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Marshadow Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Arceus-Fairy: 246-290 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Marshadow Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Groudon-Primal: 254-300 (63 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (hell you 2HKO even max hp/physdef though who the hell runs that)
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Marshadow Poltergeist vs. 52 HP / 0 Def Salamence-Mega: 204-242 (59.3 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Marshadow Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Arceus-Fairy: 246-290 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Marshadow Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Groudon-Primal: 254-300 (63 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (hell you 2HKO even max hp/physdef though who the hell runs that)
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Marshadow Poltergeist vs. 52 HP / 0 Def Salamence-Mega: 204-242 (59.3 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
meanwhile defensive zyg has to avoid chip to live ice punch and physdef yvel is 2HKOed by band cc. overall it's a breaker with an absurdly spammable STAB that is also really strong, letting you throw infinite mini z-moves.
btw, if you want to go the BU route:
+1 252+ Atk Marshadow Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Arceus-Fairy: 325-384 (73.3 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Tera Ghost Marshadow Poltergeist vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Arceus-Fairy: 320-377 (72.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
infinite z-moves baby
Not bad per se, but the fact is that Primal Groudon is nigh omnipresent on every serious team, which means it can’t freely spam its Water STABs without it getting snuffed by Desolate Land, and with it being physical frail for Uber standards, it can’t stay in on it, less it ends up getting impaled by STAB Precipice Blades.
Ig that’s fair but I feel like it could be in at least c tier as if p groudon is removed, it becomes good
This is not the entire story. It was worth being ranked when that was the only consideration.
The *real* issue is that Koraidon exists on top of Primal Groudon and Eternatus. It switches into water spout with trivial ease thanks to removing sun as it switches in and then basically just deletes Kyogre straight up. Worse, Koraidon itself very often runs scarf, which means that Kyogre probably won't even be able to act first against it, making the matchup even more damning.
Ah that makes a lot of sense in conjunction with p groudon ty
Scarf Kyogre also allows for free turns, as it is immediately forced out by Koraidon and PDon. If Swords Dance Koraidon is able to switch into Kyogre's water moves, that's potentially the end of the match right there (as Koraidon is literally unwallable if it can setup)
252 SpA Kyogre Water Spout (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Koraidon in Sun: 67-80 (19.6 - 23.4%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
Gone are the days when Kyogre could get free kills with Water Spout spam.
Hi, we decided to update the VR one last time before NDWC starts. We've also ordered the S and A subranks by viability rather than alphabetically to make the VR more accurate. Here are the results:
RISES
from A+ to S- [first, above Eternatus]
from A+ to S- [third, behind Eternatus]
from A+ to S- [fourth, behind Zygarde-C]
from A- to A+ [Dark | second, behind Zacian-C]
from A to A+ [Normal | fifth, behind Arceus-Fairy]
from B+ to A- [fourth, behind Deoxys-S]
from B+ to A- [fifth, behind Marshadow]
from B to B+
from B to B+
from B to B+
from C+ to B- [Poison]
from C to C+ [Dragon]
from C to B-
from D to C-
from UR to C+
from UR to C
from UR to C-
DROPS
from B to B- [Steel]
from B to C
from B- to C+
from B- to C
from C+ to C
from C+ to C
from C+ to C
from C+ to C
from C+ to C
from C+ to D
from C to C-
from C to C-
from C to C-
from C to C-
from C to C-
from C to C-
from C to C-
from C to D [Electric]
from C to D
from C to D
from C to UR
from C- to D
from C- to D
from C- to UR
from C- to UR
from C- to UR
Feel free to PM a VR council member / use the SQSA thread in case of any questions!
RISES
from A+ to S- [first, above Eternatus] from A+ to S- [third, behind Eternatus] from A+ to S- [fourth, behind Zygarde-C] from A- to A+ [Dark | second, behind Zacian-C] from A to A+ [Normal | fifth, behind Arceus-Fairy] from B+ to A- [fourth, behind Deoxys-S] from B+ to A- [fifth, behind Marshadow] from B to B+ from B to B+ from B to B+ from C+ to B- [Poison] from C to C+ [Dragon] from C to B- from D to C- from UR to C+ from UR to C from UR to C-DROPS
from B to B- [Steel] from B to C from B- to C+ from B- to C from C+ to C from C+ to C from C+ to C from C+ to C from C+ to C from C+ to D from C to C- from C to C- from C to C- from C to C- from C to C- from C to C- from C to C- from C to D [Electric] from C to D from C to D from C to UR from C- to D from C- to D from C- to UR from C- to UR from C- to URFeel free to PM a VR council member / use the SQSA thread in case of any questions!
Why heatran in C?
I cant really think of any top threat It can check. Perhaps offensive is decent with sun eruption but that does nothing against pogre?
Also Id argue ekiller in S- since that mon in practice wins way too many games on its own. With refresh on the set the only viable couterplay is marshadow and maybe some terra mindgames. That gets negated with it being able to terra as well. Terra ghost can cheese/eliminate all possible counterplay. Giratina-O can sometimes beat it by being immune to all its moves. But then comes a 3 attack variant with shadow claw or the stupid bulk up shadow force set.
Its also bulky enough to get easy setup against half the metagame or more. Even at half it still beats ndm as it can sd to +3 and then beat it and/or use refresh to avoid para and toxic.
I cant really think of any top threat It can check. Perhaps offensive is decent with sun eruption but that does nothing against pogre?
Also Id argue ekiller in S- since that mon in practice wins way too many games on its own. With refresh on the set the only viable couterplay is marshadow and maybe some terra mindgames. That gets negated with it being able to terra as well. Terra ghost can cheese/eliminate all possible counterplay. Giratina-O can sometimes beat it by being immune to all its moves. But then comes a 3 attack variant with shadow claw or the stupid bulk up shadow force set.
Its also bulky enough to get easy setup against half the metagame or more. Even at half it still beats ndm as it can sd to +3 and then beat it and/or use refresh to avoid para and toxic.
Heatran finds a very small niche as a check to Eternatus, Non-Earth Power Dialga, Ho-Oh, Choiced Xerneas, and MMY that can trap and remove Ho-Oh, giving it a very specific, but valuable role for teams that want a reliable way to beat Ho-Oh, while still having defensive utility that Gothitelle notably lacks.
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Following the recently announced bans in National Dex OU, Annihilape and Walking Wake will be added to the D rank effective immediately.
On an unrelated note, due to some demand from the community, I'll also provide some explanations for the recent VR changes tomorrow.
On an unrelated note, due to some demand from the community, I'll also provide some explanations for the recent VR changes tomorrow.
As promised, here's some reasoning for the recent VR changes. My bad for the delay!
RISES
to S-
Ho-Oh is a phenomenal balance staple that checks pretty much the entire metagame in some way between Sacred Fire burns, other status effects, and phazing combined with Tera Grass or Fairy. This includes the entirety of S and A bar Facade Mega Salamence. Such role compression is nothing short of jaw-dropping and turns Ho-Oh into a nigh undroppable and highly customizable glue. Ho-Oh is also the premier Defog user in the metagame, and while it may not necessarily be the best one [loses to Stone Edge Primal Groudon], freeing up the Defog slot from your Arceus form can amp up your team's threat level significantly. It deservedly rises to S-.
to S-
Xerneas and Zygarde-C are the scariest win conditions in the metagame; their threat level is sky-high when harnessing Terastal. Xerneas obviously needs no introduction at all, having taken the metagame by storm since day 1 with its Geomancy Tera Electric set. With this, Xerneas can flip the matchup against its two best checks in Necrozma-DM and Ho-Oh, none of which can stand up to +2 STAB Thunder. This is reflected in their favoured Terastal typing, with both favouring Tera Grass at the moment. Zygarde-C rises due to the emergence of the DD + Thousand Waves set. With this, Zygarde-C is able to trap traditional checks in support Arceus formes, Terastalize into a neutral / favourable typing, boost up to +6 and sweep. It does all of this while also hard-checking the best Pokemon in the game in Primal Groudon, which lets it fit into your typical balance teams nicely. Both Xerneas & Zygarde-C have proven to be a cut above your average setup sweeper. To reflect this distinguishment, we are raising them both to S-.
to A+
Arceus is a staple on all sorts of hyper offense teams as a dangerous setup sweeper that takes advantage of Terastal beautifully, with SD Tera Normal and DD + Taunt Tera Ghost sets being some of the best late-game cleaners in the metagame. It takes full advantage of Marshadow and Zacian-C's relative fall from grace compared to prior generations. Arceus' threat level is more befitting of being ranked next to fellow top-tier sweepers in Mega Salamence and Zacian-C.
to A+
Arceus-Dark counters DD Ultra Necrozma, while also being a fine check to Primal Groudon, Mega Salamence, and Necrozma-DM. What truly separates it from other support Arceus formes though, is access to STAB Foul Play. This move is a literal godsend for it, letting it punish Koraidon and Zacian-C, and allowing it to blanket check the myriad of setup sweepers in this tier. Arceus-Dark benefits hugely from Terastal as well, with Tera Poison letting it flip the tables entirely on its nemeses in Koraidon, Xerneas, and Zacian-C. A simple Foul Play / Taunt / Toxic set does all of the aforementioned, while turning it into a great win condition. It ranks as the best support Arceus form in the current metagame.
to A-
Marshadow and Deoxys-A are very respectable wallbreakers with Tera Ghost. Marshadow has a much easier time breaking through its traditional checks, with Choice Band Tera Ghost Poltergeist 2HKO'ing the bulkiest of Arceus-Fairy without any prior chip damage required. Due to the widespread coverage of Ghost as an offensive type, a strong Ghost move is hard to respond to properly, even with defensive use of Terastal. Obviously, no Ghost resists want anything to do with Close Combat either. Additional utility in Shadow Sneak and Pursuit allows Marshadow to revenge kill weakened boosted threats, distinguishing itself from wallbreaker Koraidon. Marshadow's days as universal speed control are over due to the redefinition in speed tiers at the hands of Koraidon, Zacian-C, and Dragon Dance Arceus formes, so it is unlikely Marshadow will be able to reclaim its former glory, but we believe a rise to A- is fair to reflect its capabilities as a very self-sufficient wallbreaker.
Deoxys-A finally got the tools to overcome some of its biggest roadblocks in Necrozma-DM and Extreme Speed; Tera Ghost Shadow Ball. Combined with its clutch speed tier outpacing both Koraidon and Zacian-C, this turns Deoxys-A into an unstoppable breaker in the right hands. Life Orb Psycho Boost hits like a truck, and when combined with nigh unresisted coverage courtesy of Shadow Ball and Low Kick, any traditional switch-in to Psychic-types has to think twice. The fourth slot can be chosen based on team-specific demands, with Ice Beam denting Yveltal and Zygarde-C, Rock Slide luring both Yveltal and Ho-Oh, and Extreme Speed adding handy utility against setup sweepers. All in all a very scary threat that is only held back due to high skill requirements to make the most out of it.
to B+
Flutter Mane's broken type combination and great special bulk lets it come a long way in a metagame filled with bulky Dark types and special attacking support Arceus formes. This gives it plenty of opportunities to set up Calm Mind and clean up weakened teams between Shadow Ball and Moonblast combined with just the right coverage move in Power Gem to smack Ho-Oh. Flutter Mane is also the only offensive threat with a positive matchup against all Koraidon sets, immediately giving it a boost in a metagame that is dominated with a capital D by Koraidon. It's a nifty anti-meta threat that scores itself a raise due to all of these reasons.
to B+
Palkia's Origin form is a vicious anti-meta wallbreaker capable of taking advantage of tier superglues in Necrozma-DM and Ho-Oh with Substitute. From there, it can freely fire off Lustrous Globe- and potentially Tera Water-boosted Hydro Pump to drown a large swath of the defensive metagame, with Spacial Rend in the back to 2HKO the bulkiest of Primal Groudon after minimal chip and OHKO most other Water-resists. Not even Ferrothorn is safe, as it is taken down by Fire Blast. Such wallbreaking prowess on a Pokemon with a Speed rivaling that of Arceus and Mega Salamence ought to be respected, hence the rise to B+.
to B+
Dual Screens has been taken to a new level entirely this generation, courtesy of Grimmsnarl's newfound access to Parting Shot. With this move, Grimmsnarl is able to create lose / lose situations for the opponent, as even if you manage to remove Screens with Defog, Grimmsnarl remains capable of weakening you with Prankster Parting Shot and enabling a setup sweeper in the process. Defog Arceus-Dark and Yveltal are the only Pokemon capable of avoiding this interaction altogether, but neither appreciate Play Rough draining their Recover / Roost PP. Combine this with the fact that Screens Hyper Offense is the most resistant to Choice Scarf Koraidon / Ditto as a hyper offensive playstyle, and it shouldn't come as a surprise why we're raising Grimmsnarl.
to B-
Arceus-Poison compresses a check to top tier staples in Koraidon, Xerneas, Zacian-C and Arceus, while also giving you a Toxic immunity and Toxic Spikes absorber. You do have to make sure you couple it up with checks to Primal Groudon and Zygarde-C, since usually you would use your Arceus slot to check those. This isn't much of an issue however, since you can just pair it with the likes of Coil Zygarde-C, bulky Primal Kyogre, Giratina-O etc. and you'll be fine. A severely underrated Pokemon that rises deservedly.
to C+
On the other hand, Arceus-Dragon compresses a check to a unique group of Pokemon in Primal Groudon, Zygarde-C, Mega Salamence, and Primal Kyogre, while boasting a favourable Judgment type into Koraidon, letting it serve as a soft-check to it. Its ability to annoy Primal Kyogre is of particular importance, letting it distinguish itself from the likes of Arceus-Fairy and Arceus-Dark. It rises a subrank to better reflect its overall utility.
to B-
Mega Mewtwo X thrives in a metagame where the primary Fighting-type resist is Ho-Oh, which can't switch in to Stone Edge obviously. The popularity of Arceus-Dark and Ho-Oh gives Mega Mewtwo X plenty of opportunities to break walls, making it a fairly effective anti-meta option. It can't break Arceus-Fairy as reliably of course, but can still pressure it well enough with Poison Jab depleting Recover over the course of a game. It will be placed in B- for now as a decent option to overwhelm the defensive integrity of a team when used alongside fellow Fighting-types in Koraidon and Marshadow.
to C-
Mega Blastoise carves out a niche for itself on hyper offensive teams as a setup sweeper capable of threatening the likes of Ho-Oh and Necrozma-DM. Even Primal Groudon drops to +2 Dragon Pulse after some chip, which makes Mega Blastoise a fine cleaner situationally. However, its very weak to priority and Scarfers, so a modest raise to reflect that it has a niche ought to suffice.
to C+, C, and C-, respectively
Buzzwole, Heatran, and Garganacl all manage to secure themselves a spot on the VR. Buzzwole does so by being a fine check to the likes of Zygarde-C, Arceus, and other physical Arceus formes lacking Taunt. Heatran dominates Ho-Oh, Eternatus, Arceus-Fairy, and Toxic Necrozma-DM, making it a deceptively good balance breaker. Similarly, Garganacl dominates Ho-Oh while serving as a status absorber and win condition between Salt Cure, Iron Defense, and Body Press.
DROPS
to B-
Arceus-Steel is very hard to fit as an offensive Calm Mind user due to the prevalence of both Ho-Oh and bulky Primal Groudon. While it can run coverage for them in the form of Power Gem and Earth Power, it only has place for one of these coverage moves. You can drop Recover on hyper offensive teams, but at that point you are probably much better off running Calm Mind Arceus-Ground. Its weakness to common revenge killers doesn't help it out much either.
to C+
Gothitelle is a very matchup-dependant Pokemon, and it just so happens to not like current matchups at all. The most common Arceus form is Arceus-Dark, many support Arceus forms run Taunt, and hyper offense is very prevalent. It can still trap the likes of Necrozma-DM and a Choice-locked Koraidon, but tends to be deadweight in way too many matchups for this to be worth much.
to C
The Landorus formes are mostly outclassed in this metagame. Landorus-T is a niche check to the likes of Primal Groudon and SD / DD Arceus formes, but it tends to get worn down / overwhelmed quite quickly. Landorus is a niche suicide lead on Sticky Web teams that can hit quite hard, but doesn't have a lot going for it over Stealth Rock + Eruption Primal Groudon other than Explosion.
to C
to C-
Bulkier teams continue to suffer under a constricted metagame dominated by the nigh unwallable Koraidon and the myriad of Terastal sweepers / general setup sweepers. The recovery nerf was a huge hit as well, further diminishing these teams in longer games. Chansey, Blissey, Mega Sableye, Mega Slowbro, Clodsire, Toxapex, and Skarmory are some of the poster children of these bulkier teams, and drop as a result.
to C
Celesteela drops as a result of Ho-Oh's dominance. It can barely make any meaningful progress in this metagame.
to C-
A host of niche Pokemon drop even further due to the centralized nature of the metagame. Excadrill and Cloyster are rarely worth it over Deoxys-S. Access to Rapid Spin doesn't mean a lot when the metagame's most common entry hazard setters are shut down by Taunt already. Mega Blaziken is almost never worth it over SD Koraidon. Regieleki struggles with Primal Groudon's dominance over the metagame, with Tera Blast Ice not doing a whole lot to bulkier variants. This generally makes it inferior to the countless other wallbreakers in the metagame.
to D
None of these Pokemon hold a tangible niche anymore. Chien-Pao and Urshifu just don't hit hard enough to warrant usage over other breakers. Choice Scarf Koraidon and Ditto vastly outclass Galarian Darmanitan. Roaring Moon isn't justifiable over other Dragon Dancers. Mewtwo doesn't really have anything going for it anymore; Taunt sets are useless with the recovery nerf, and offensive sets are outclassed by Mega Mewtwo Y. Arceus-Electric's niche as a Calm Mind sweeper that keeps Ho-Oh from using Defog is worthless now, with better Calm Mind Arceus formes now having access to Power Gem.
to UR
Dugtrio and Wobbuffet aren't worth using; the things they trap can also be overwhelmed by other Pokemon that aren't deadweight into everything else. Tyranitar is wholly outclassed by Arceus-Dark and Yveltal. Corviknight is too passive to warrant a slot over Ho-Oh or even Skarmory.
RISES
to S-Ho-Oh is a phenomenal balance staple that checks pretty much the entire metagame in some way between Sacred Fire burns, other status effects, and phazing combined with Tera Grass or Fairy. This includes the entirety of S and A bar Facade Mega Salamence. Such role compression is nothing short of jaw-dropping and turns Ho-Oh into a nigh undroppable and highly customizable glue. Ho-Oh is also the premier Defog user in the metagame, and while it may not necessarily be the best one [loses to Stone Edge Primal Groudon], freeing up the Defog slot from your Arceus form can amp up your team's threat level significantly. It deservedly rises to S-.
to S-Xerneas and Zygarde-C are the scariest win conditions in the metagame; their threat level is sky-high when harnessing Terastal. Xerneas obviously needs no introduction at all, having taken the metagame by storm since day 1 with its Geomancy Tera Electric set. With this, Xerneas can flip the matchup against its two best checks in Necrozma-DM and Ho-Oh, none of which can stand up to +2 STAB Thunder. This is reflected in their favoured Terastal typing, with both favouring Tera Grass at the moment. Zygarde-C rises due to the emergence of the DD + Thousand Waves set. With this, Zygarde-C is able to trap traditional checks in support Arceus formes, Terastalize into a neutral / favourable typing, boost up to +6 and sweep. It does all of this while also hard-checking the best Pokemon in the game in Primal Groudon, which lets it fit into your typical balance teams nicely. Both Xerneas & Zygarde-C have proven to be a cut above your average setup sweeper. To reflect this distinguishment, we are raising them both to S-.
to A+Arceus is a staple on all sorts of hyper offense teams as a dangerous setup sweeper that takes advantage of Terastal beautifully, with SD Tera Normal and DD + Taunt Tera Ghost sets being some of the best late-game cleaners in the metagame. It takes full advantage of Marshadow and Zacian-C's relative fall from grace compared to prior generations. Arceus' threat level is more befitting of being ranked next to fellow top-tier sweepers in Mega Salamence and Zacian-C.
to A+Arceus-Dark counters DD Ultra Necrozma, while also being a fine check to Primal Groudon, Mega Salamence, and Necrozma-DM. What truly separates it from other support Arceus formes though, is access to STAB Foul Play. This move is a literal godsend for it, letting it punish Koraidon and Zacian-C, and allowing it to blanket check the myriad of setup sweepers in this tier. Arceus-Dark benefits hugely from Terastal as well, with Tera Poison letting it flip the tables entirely on its nemeses in Koraidon, Xerneas, and Zacian-C. A simple Foul Play / Taunt / Toxic set does all of the aforementioned, while turning it into a great win condition. It ranks as the best support Arceus form in the current metagame.
to A-Marshadow and Deoxys-A are very respectable wallbreakers with Tera Ghost. Marshadow has a much easier time breaking through its traditional checks, with Choice Band Tera Ghost Poltergeist 2HKO'ing the bulkiest of Arceus-Fairy without any prior chip damage required. Due to the widespread coverage of Ghost as an offensive type, a strong Ghost move is hard to respond to properly, even with defensive use of Terastal. Obviously, no Ghost resists want anything to do with Close Combat either. Additional utility in Shadow Sneak and Pursuit allows Marshadow to revenge kill weakened boosted threats, distinguishing itself from wallbreaker Koraidon. Marshadow's days as universal speed control are over due to the redefinition in speed tiers at the hands of Koraidon, Zacian-C, and Dragon Dance Arceus formes, so it is unlikely Marshadow will be able to reclaim its former glory, but we believe a rise to A- is fair to reflect its capabilities as a very self-sufficient wallbreaker.
Deoxys-A finally got the tools to overcome some of its biggest roadblocks in Necrozma-DM and Extreme Speed; Tera Ghost Shadow Ball. Combined with its clutch speed tier outpacing both Koraidon and Zacian-C, this turns Deoxys-A into an unstoppable breaker in the right hands. Life Orb Psycho Boost hits like a truck, and when combined with nigh unresisted coverage courtesy of Shadow Ball and Low Kick, any traditional switch-in to Psychic-types has to think twice. The fourth slot can be chosen based on team-specific demands, with Ice Beam denting Yveltal and Zygarde-C, Rock Slide luring both Yveltal and Ho-Oh, and Extreme Speed adding handy utility against setup sweepers. All in all a very scary threat that is only held back due to high skill requirements to make the most out of it.
to B+Flutter Mane's broken type combination and great special bulk lets it come a long way in a metagame filled with bulky Dark types and special attacking support Arceus formes. This gives it plenty of opportunities to set up Calm Mind and clean up weakened teams between Shadow Ball and Moonblast combined with just the right coverage move in Power Gem to smack Ho-Oh. Flutter Mane is also the only offensive threat with a positive matchup against all Koraidon sets, immediately giving it a boost in a metagame that is dominated with a capital D by Koraidon. It's a nifty anti-meta threat that scores itself a raise due to all of these reasons.
to B+Palkia's Origin form is a vicious anti-meta wallbreaker capable of taking advantage of tier superglues in Necrozma-DM and Ho-Oh with Substitute. From there, it can freely fire off Lustrous Globe- and potentially Tera Water-boosted Hydro Pump to drown a large swath of the defensive metagame, with Spacial Rend in the back to 2HKO the bulkiest of Primal Groudon after minimal chip and OHKO most other Water-resists. Not even Ferrothorn is safe, as it is taken down by Fire Blast. Such wallbreaking prowess on a Pokemon with a Speed rivaling that of Arceus and Mega Salamence ought to be respected, hence the rise to B+.
to B+Dual Screens has been taken to a new level entirely this generation, courtesy of Grimmsnarl's newfound access to Parting Shot. With this move, Grimmsnarl is able to create lose / lose situations for the opponent, as even if you manage to remove Screens with Defog, Grimmsnarl remains capable of weakening you with Prankster Parting Shot and enabling a setup sweeper in the process. Defog Arceus-Dark and Yveltal are the only Pokemon capable of avoiding this interaction altogether, but neither appreciate Play Rough draining their Recover / Roost PP. Combine this with the fact that Screens Hyper Offense is the most resistant to Choice Scarf Koraidon / Ditto as a hyper offensive playstyle, and it shouldn't come as a surprise why we're raising Grimmsnarl.
to B-Arceus-Poison compresses a check to top tier staples in Koraidon, Xerneas, Zacian-C and Arceus, while also giving you a Toxic immunity and Toxic Spikes absorber. You do have to make sure you couple it up with checks to Primal Groudon and Zygarde-C, since usually you would use your Arceus slot to check those. This isn't much of an issue however, since you can just pair it with the likes of Coil Zygarde-C, bulky Primal Kyogre, Giratina-O etc. and you'll be fine. A severely underrated Pokemon that rises deservedly.
to C+On the other hand, Arceus-Dragon compresses a check to a unique group of Pokemon in Primal Groudon, Zygarde-C, Mega Salamence, and Primal Kyogre, while boasting a favourable Judgment type into Koraidon, letting it serve as a soft-check to it. Its ability to annoy Primal Kyogre is of particular importance, letting it distinguish itself from the likes of Arceus-Fairy and Arceus-Dark. It rises a subrank to better reflect its overall utility.
to B-Mega Mewtwo X thrives in a metagame where the primary Fighting-type resist is Ho-Oh, which can't switch in to Stone Edge obviously. The popularity of Arceus-Dark and Ho-Oh gives Mega Mewtwo X plenty of opportunities to break walls, making it a fairly effective anti-meta option. It can't break Arceus-Fairy as reliably of course, but can still pressure it well enough with Poison Jab depleting Recover over the course of a game. It will be placed in B- for now as a decent option to overwhelm the defensive integrity of a team when used alongside fellow Fighting-types in Koraidon and Marshadow.
to C-Mega Blastoise carves out a niche for itself on hyper offensive teams as a setup sweeper capable of threatening the likes of Ho-Oh and Necrozma-DM. Even Primal Groudon drops to +2 Dragon Pulse after some chip, which makes Mega Blastoise a fine cleaner situationally. However, its very weak to priority and Scarfers, so a modest raise to reflect that it has a niche ought to suffice.
to C+, C, and C-, respectivelyBuzzwole, Heatran, and Garganacl all manage to secure themselves a spot on the VR. Buzzwole does so by being a fine check to the likes of Zygarde-C, Arceus, and other physical Arceus formes lacking Taunt. Heatran dominates Ho-Oh, Eternatus, Arceus-Fairy, and Toxic Necrozma-DM, making it a deceptively good balance breaker. Similarly, Garganacl dominates Ho-Oh while serving as a status absorber and win condition between Salt Cure, Iron Defense, and Body Press.
DROPS
to B-Arceus-Steel is very hard to fit as an offensive Calm Mind user due to the prevalence of both Ho-Oh and bulky Primal Groudon. While it can run coverage for them in the form of Power Gem and Earth Power, it only has place for one of these coverage moves. You can drop Recover on hyper offensive teams, but at that point you are probably much better off running Calm Mind Arceus-Ground. Its weakness to common revenge killers doesn't help it out much either.
to C+Gothitelle is a very matchup-dependant Pokemon, and it just so happens to not like current matchups at all. The most common Arceus form is Arceus-Dark, many support Arceus forms run Taunt, and hyper offense is very prevalent. It can still trap the likes of Necrozma-DM and a Choice-locked Koraidon, but tends to be deadweight in way too many matchups for this to be worth much.
to CThe Landorus formes are mostly outclassed in this metagame. Landorus-T is a niche check to the likes of Primal Groudon and SD / DD Arceus formes, but it tends to get worn down / overwhelmed quite quickly. Landorus is a niche suicide lead on Sticky Web teams that can hit quite hard, but doesn't have a lot going for it over Stealth Rock + Eruption Primal Groudon other than Explosion.
to C to C-Bulkier teams continue to suffer under a constricted metagame dominated by the nigh unwallable Koraidon and the myriad of Terastal sweepers / general setup sweepers. The recovery nerf was a huge hit as well, further diminishing these teams in longer games. Chansey, Blissey, Mega Sableye, Mega Slowbro, Clodsire, Toxapex, and Skarmory are some of the poster children of these bulkier teams, and drop as a result.
to CCelesteela drops as a result of Ho-Oh's dominance. It can barely make any meaningful progress in this metagame.
to C-A host of niche Pokemon drop even further due to the centralized nature of the metagame. Excadrill and Cloyster are rarely worth it over Deoxys-S. Access to Rapid Spin doesn't mean a lot when the metagame's most common entry hazard setters are shut down by Taunt already. Mega Blaziken is almost never worth it over SD Koraidon. Regieleki struggles with Primal Groudon's dominance over the metagame, with Tera Blast Ice not doing a whole lot to bulkier variants. This generally makes it inferior to the countless other wallbreakers in the metagame.
to DNone of these Pokemon hold a tangible niche anymore. Chien-Pao and Urshifu just don't hit hard enough to warrant usage over other breakers. Choice Scarf Koraidon and Ditto vastly outclass Galarian Darmanitan. Roaring Moon isn't justifiable over other Dragon Dancers. Mewtwo doesn't really have anything going for it anymore; Taunt sets are useless with the recovery nerf, and offensive sets are outclassed by Mega Mewtwo Y. Arceus-Electric's niche as a Calm Mind sweeper that keeps Ho-Oh from using Defog is worthless now, with better Calm Mind Arceus formes now having access to Power Gem.
to URDugtrio and Wobbuffet aren't worth using; the things they trap can also be overwhelmed by other Pokemon that aren't deadweight into everything else. Tyranitar is wholly outclassed by Arceus-Dark and Yveltal. Corviknight is too passive to warrant a slot over Ho-Oh or even Skarmory.
does this have a slate?
thanks :3
Chien-Pao to D tier is a bit wild. I've been using it of late and it has performed extremely well.
Cat w/ Sword Teeth (Chien-Pao) @ Expert Belt
Ability: Sword of Ruin
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Ice Shard
- Crunch
- Icicle Crash
- Ruination
Running this set has allowed it to reliably pull of some incredible feats including 2HKOing Defensive Dusk Mane, Xerneas, most Arceus forms. It slams anything without significant bulk investment and expert belt is the item I've found that balances offensive utility best. Allowing it to pick up those key KOs, without worrying about LO recoil or being choice locked. Ruination has also served as a very valuable tool to breaking various bulky stall teams as it serves to soften them up for its own teammates.
While it can be a bit of a tera hog due to its mediocre bulk and typing I've found more often than not it's been more than sufficient for taking on the tasks it needs to.
TLDR, the cat is underrated, criminally so IMO.
Cat w/ Sword Teeth (Chien-Pao) @ Expert Belt
Ability: Sword of Ruin
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Ice Shard
- Crunch
- Icicle Crash
- Ruination
Running this set has allowed it to reliably pull of some incredible feats including 2HKOing Defensive Dusk Mane, Xerneas, most Arceus forms. It slams anything without significant bulk investment and expert belt is the item I've found that balances offensive utility best. Allowing it to pick up those key KOs, without worrying about LO recoil or being choice locked. Ruination has also served as a very valuable tool to breaking various bulky stall teams as it serves to soften them up for its own teammates.
While it can be a bit of a tera hog due to its mediocre bulk and typing I've found more often than not it's been more than sufficient for taking on the tasks it needs to.
TLDR, the cat is underrated, criminally so IMO.
Chien-Pao isn't underrated at all, actually. It doesn't hit hard enough due to its low base power moves, even with it's ability. It has terrible bulk by Ubers standards, and requires tera to do as much damage as Scarf Koraidon.
252 Atk Sword of Ruin Tera Dark Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Electric: 190-224 (49.8 - 58.7%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Orichalcum Pulse Koraidon Collision Course vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Arceus-Electric: 192-226 (50.3 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
While I can understand why chien-pao wouldn’t be used over other offensive pokes, namely koraidon, Primal-don, zacian and ect. I don’t really think it deserves to be ranked D since on deoxys speed hyper offense teams a swords dance icium z set can catch people off guard and can keep hazards up against defog Pokémon such as Arceus fairy and ho-oh after a swords dance boost. Even after a swords dance boost it puts a heavy charge into other mons such as xerneas and can scare out other mons such as zygarde and other Pokémon not willing to take it’s stabs. If you don’t wanna use up your z move you could go tera and life orb to hit very hard as well. Similarly a choice band can be quite hard to switch into when your tera’d ice. This mon also isn’t exactly slow so it can run adamant for the extra power since your not planning to tie with koraidon as most are scarf and you don’t outrun much anyway except for max speed offensive arceus forms.
Chien-Pao @ Icium Z / Life Orb
Ability: Sword of Ruin
Tera Type: Ice / Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Icicle Crash
- Crunch
- Sucker Punch / Ice Shard
- Swords Dance
Calc examples:
+2 252 Atk Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Subzero Slammer (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 132 Def Arceus-Dark: 501-591 (113 - 133.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Arceus-Dark: 344-407 (77.6 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Arceus-Water: 325-383 (73.3 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Chien-Pao @ Choice Band
Ability: Sword of Ruin
Tera Type: Ice / Dar
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Icicle Crash
- Crunch
- Sucker Punch
- Ice Shard
Calc examples:
252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Ice Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Xerneas: 286-338 (62.7 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Non-tera: 214-253 (46.9 - 55.4%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Ice Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Arceus-Dark: 266-314 (60 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Non-tera against Darkeus: 199-235 (44.9 - 53%) -- 29.7% chance to 2HKO
^Around the same damage for other arceus forms with crunch
Overall I still think that the drop was a little harsh but I can see why it dropped. But I would still like it to be in c- rank at least
Chien-Pao @ Icium Z / Life Orb
Ability: Sword of Ruin
Tera Type: Ice / Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Icicle Crash
- Crunch
- Sucker Punch / Ice Shard
- Swords Dance
Calc examples:
+2 252 Atk Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Subzero Slammer (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 132 Def Arceus-Dark: 501-591 (113 - 133.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Arceus-Dark: 344-407 (77.6 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Arceus-Water: 325-383 (73.3 - 86.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Chien-Pao @ Choice Band
Ability: Sword of Ruin
Tera Type: Ice / Dar
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Icicle Crash
- Crunch
- Sucker Punch
- Ice Shard
Calc examples:
252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Ice Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Xerneas: 286-338 (62.7 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Non-tera: 214-253 (46.9 - 55.4%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Tera Ice Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Arceus-Dark: 266-314 (60 - 70.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Non-tera against Darkeus: 199-235 (44.9 - 53%) -- 29.7% chance to 2HKO
^Around the same damage for other arceus forms with crunch
Overall I still think that the drop was a little harsh but I can see why it dropped. But I would still like it to be in c- rank at least
As stated in the thread rules, if you are nominating a Pokemon to be ranked (meaning it was previously unranked), then you need to provide replays of it being used. Do not post one-liners and do not double post here either. Further violations will be met with an infraction. Take it to DMs Smurfing Surfer Cancel cult
Eternatus from S- --> A+
This mon is still very strong in this metagame however, being ranked alongside Xern, Ho-oh, and Zygarde complete is a bit much. It is usually a powerful Xerneas check, but thanks to terastilization, it's no longer a good check. Mainly due to xern's increase in hp ground usage over the past week or so(which I might have caused during my 20 win streak), it no longer is capable of checking Xern especially since Xerneas often run tera steel or more rarely tera ground for stab hp ground, both of which resist Eternatus's sludge bombs.
(+2 252 SpA Xerneas Hidden Power Ground vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eternatus: 214-254 (44.2 - 52.4%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO)
Eternatus's other role in countering ho-oh with power gem is simply not worth using a team slot on. Especially since Zygarde-C provides a superior check thanks to thousand arrows, Zygarde has the added benefit of glare support, and functioning as an NDM and U-necrozma counter as it only needs one attack. Zygarde even has the ability to function as a trapper, and can counter P-Groudon instead of being forced out like Eternatus. If Zygarde is the trapper set, it can even boost to +6 on P-Groudon
(252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eternatus: 338-398 (69.8 - 82.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)
(220+ Atk Zygarde Complete Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Primal Groudon: 132-156 (32.6 - 38.6%) -- 97.9% chance to 3HKO)
(252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 80 HP / 208 Def Zygarde Complete: 147-174 (24.7 - 29.3%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO)
Arceus-Dark A+2-> A+5
Arceus Dark isn't nearly as good of a form as Arceus-Fairy, because of it's inability to wall Koraidon and Xern, although able to wall NDM better than Arceus-Fairy. Arceus Dark can't even wall specific offensive NDM, especially after a swords dance
(+2 252 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Searing Sunraze Smash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Dark: 525-618 (107.4 - 126.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO)
And although it can kill necrozma with judgment in 2 hits, if NDM is max speed, arceus can't prevent SD.
(0 SpA Arceus-Dark Judgment vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Prism Armor Necrozma-Dusk-Mane: 211-249 (62.9 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO).
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